I would never bother with this game, not my thing but it is interesting to see a developer not just admit failure but to have the decency of not trying to charge a subscription for a game they admit is bad. Another thing noone posting here seems to have picked up on are the reasons behind delaying the PS3 release, I wonder if Sony had anything to do with that as console producers have huge control over the release and licensing of games for their platforms.
Also the bringing in of a new unknown guy to lead the project seems like they are bringing in a yes man, someone that they will have an easier time with dictating the exact direction the changes should be taking.
Currently playing:
EVE online (Ruining low sec one hotdrop at a time)
Gravity Rush, Dishonoured: The Knife of Dunwall.
(Waiting for) Metro: Last Light, Company of Heroes II.
OmaliMMO Business CorrespondentMemberUncommonPosts: 1,177
Originally posted by Nikkita
Originally posted by Hyanmen
Originally posted by GrayGhost79
Hard to believe that just last year FFXI was still sporting 500k subs when FFXIV couldn't break the 100k mark lol.
XI has been hovering around the 300k subs mark since the end of 2008 or so.
XIV sold more than 500k copies initially, so they did break it.
He is talking in terms of active subs in FFXIV not total unit sold.
Since FFXIV is free to play, aren't all subscriptions still active?
Hard to believe that just last year FFXI was still sporting 500k subs when FFXIV couldn't break the 100k mark lol.
XI has been hovering around the 300k subs mark since the end of 2008 or so.
XIV sold more than 500k copies initially, so they did break it.
He is talking in terms of active subs in FFXIV not total unit sold.
Since FFXIV is free to play, aren't all subscriptions still active?
You can still cancel your accounts even if it is free. But what matters is that how many players bother to log in to play even during free times. Before SE removed ability to check server population numbers, things weren't looking that good.
Lets just hope they learned shiny graphics are not the be all end all. If you need to sacrifice some graphics in the name of game play you do it. While FFXIV is the better looking game XI is simply the better game in every possible way. I hope the team gets that this time around.
Agree 100%.
Even if this whole mess with XIV didn't happen and the game launched beautifully... XIV would have a hell of an uphill battle to surpass XI in my mind. I don't mean in terms of content or any of those "tangible" things that can be and were added on later. It's not a matter of "XI has 8 years worth of new content...".
There's a lot that went into XIV that really can't be defined to me. You can sense the attention to detail and care that went into it. The game has a "soul", corny as that may sound; but I'm sure people know what I'm talking about.
XIV doesn't seem to have that at all yet. The shell is there... it's just missing the filling.
People like options. Questing and Grinding are the traditional routes for leveling now days but... FFXI's Besieged and Campaign were a bit innovative in it's day and seem to be fairly similar to next years big "innovation" with many newer MMO's boasting Dynamic events that in the end are very similar to FFXI's campaign and besieged systems but expanded upon.
I think they'd have to re-think them a bit, though. Campaign in many ways helped to kill traditional xp parties in XI. It also made many players rather lazy. People would get from level 50 to 75 purely by Campaign, and then have their skills still at level 50. So they'd have to go get into *more* parties (Boyadha Tree anyone?) to cap them. Talk about doing twice the work for the same effect. You can definitely see, though, that all they really cared about was that number next to their active Job. All else was secondary.
Level Sync further killed parties and took the idea of level 75s with severely gimped skills even farther. Now you had people dinging 75 on Qufim Island, their skills being behind by upwards of 50 job levels worth.
So.. while I loved participating in Campaign, and all the Death and Mayhem that typically ensued... It did definitely hurt partying in the game IMO.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Hard to believe that just last year FFXI was still sporting 500k subs when FFXIV couldn't break the 100k mark lol.
XI has been hovering around the 300k subs mark since the end of 2008 or so.
XIV sold more than 500k copies initially, so they did break it.
He is talking in terms of active subs in FFXIV not total unit sold.
Since FFXIV is free to play, aren't all subscriptions still active?
You would think, but even free I know many canceled lol. They could have resubed but ... honestly if they had 100-200k subs they would likely be charging instead of asking everyone to be patient and offering the game with no sub atm. Considering that this is still so close to launch ... it makes me wonder if they had a concurrent 100k+ willing to sub at any point.
They probably did... but I just don't see it with the way things have turned out. Selling 500k boxes means nothing if no one picks up the sub, at least it doesn't mean anything for a pay to play MMO.
However, if they can get the population back to a steady 400 or 500k... that would be fine for them, once they get out of the red with the game and start turning profit. For example, FFXI has been a cash cow for them for years now.
I doubt that FFXIV's population will ever be measured in terms of hundreds of thousands and will more than likely hover in the tens of.....high tens at best They had a chance to make a positive impact on the MMO industry and failed. And that failure won't soon be forgotten by either the industry or players; who are even now looking to the next round of new releases on the horizon for 2011 and beyond.
FFXIV players should be content with the knowledge that Square Enix are trying to fix their mistakes, but expecting the game to make some sort of miraculous comeback and somehow become the 'success' that players initially hoped that it would be is wishful thinking. If MMO history lessons have taught us (as players) anything it is that miracles don't happen.
However, if they can get the population back to a steady 400 or 500k... that would be fine for them, once they get out of the red with the game and start turning profit. For example, FFXI has been a cash cow for them for years now.
I doubt that FFXIV's population will ever be measured in terms of hundreds of thousands and will more than likely hover in the tens of.....high tens at best They had a chance to make a positive impact on the MMO industry and failed. And that failure won't soon be forgotten by either the industry or players; who are even now looking to the next round of new releases on the horizon for 2011 and beyond.
FFXIV players should be content with the knowledge that Square Enix are trying to fix their mistakes, but expecting the game to make some sort of miraculous comeback and somehow become the 'success' that players initially hoped that it would be is wishful thinking. If MMO history lessons have taught us (as players) anything it is that miracles don't happen.
I agree, very few MMOS get a second chance. This game will end up just like WAR, AOC and Vanguard. No matter how much these games have improved over the years players just won't give it another chance. And i can totally understand why.
Some of the fans here are just way too excited over this news as if it is going to make huge difference down the line. FFXIV will never ever be anywhere close to success of FFXI.
Lets just hope they learned shiny graphics are not the be all end all. If you need to sacrifice some graphics in the name of game play you do it. While FFXIV is the better looking game XI is simply the better game in every possible way. I hope the team gets that this time around.
Agree 100%.
Even if this whole mess with XIV didn't happen and the game launched beautifully... XIV would have a hell of an uphill battle to surpass XI in my mind. I don't mean in terms of content or any of those "tangible" things that can be and were added on later. It's not a matter of "XI has 8 years worth of new content...".
There's a lot that went into XIV that really can't be defined to me. You can sense the attention to detail and care that went into it. The game has a "soul", corny as that may sound; but I'm sure people know what I'm talking about.
XIV doesn't seem to have that at all yet. The shell is there... it's just missing the filling.
People like options. Questing and Grinding are the traditional routes for leveling now days but... FFXI's Besieged and Campaign were a bit innovative in it's day and seem to be fairly similar to next years big "innovation" with many newer MMO's boasting Dynamic events that in the end are very similar to FFXI's campaign and besieged systems but expanded upon.
I think they'd have to re-think them a bit, though. Campaign in many ways helped to kill traditional xp parties in XI. It also made many players rather lazy. People would get from level 50 to 75 purely by Campaign, and then have their skills still at level 50. So they'd have to go get into *more* parties (Boyadha Tree anyone?) to cap them. Talk about doing twice the work for the same effect. You can definitely see, though, that all they really cared about was that number next to their active Job. All else was secondary.
Level Sync further killed parties and took the idea of level 75s with severely gimped skills even farther. Now you had people dinging 75 on Qufim Island, their skills being behind by upwards of 50 job levels worth.
So.. while I loved participating in Campaign, and all the Death and Mayhem that typically ensued... It did definitely hurt partying in the game IMO.
As far as Campaign and such goes... while it did kill traditional XP parties it was a boon to the game. The reason was simple... it was a hell of a lot more fun to go in with many other random players and those in your party and lay waste to hordes of beastmen in the name of your Nation and what not.
Though I do agree with them needing to rework it a bit as having to go back and grind the skills after getting the levels was a pain lol.
I did like the traditional grind aspect of FFXI and their take on it as it was fun, but in the end campaign and besieged were just a great deal more fun. It was also a nice alternative to LFG endlessly on some days lol. You flag up and wait... nothing pops up when you need so you hop on over to one of the outposts and jump into the fray.
I was going to say that there was actually a ton of content added (levels 1-60, 80-85)...but seeing as the OP is a staunch defender of FFXIV, he might not understand. Is there anything to do in FFXIV besides level and craft?
I am not a staunch defender of FFXIV,i don't play it because it is inferior to FFXI,but imo is still better than Wow.
BTW Square Enix does not utilize a test server,they release what they have,Blizzard uses a test server and still releases tons of bugs.So don't go comparing a poor release like Cataclysym to FFXIV when Blizzard's release is no better ,i would say even worse.
1. The patcher doesn't work after install. It didn't work in beta and it didn't work in retail. I waited SIX WEEKS before activating my account, and that was because I was bored enough to go locate and download several manual patches / torrents from a third party website. I would guess a majority of people who picked this up, tried to install and couldn't launch it just said "**** it". The official website didn't recognize this issue, fix the issue or offer guidance. Not everyone has used BitTorrent or trusts what they download, or has the savvy to find a patch, so from the beginning there was a severe obstacle for the user.
2. When you DO get into the game, its impossible to apply any pre-existing knowledge of MMO user-interfaces. WHY companies choose to re-invent the wheel and force players to learn a new UI is beyond me. I can understand if the mechanics of your game is something truly novel, but FFXIV looks like a typical MMO to me.
Personally I didn't enjoy my time in-game and I really didn't like the whole database'esque feel of the inventory system. This is what happens when games are designed by database administrators without the input of a game designer.
However, if they can get the population back to a steady 400 or 500k... that would be fine for them, once they get out of the red with the game and start turning profit. For example, FFXI has been a cash cow for them for years now.
I doubt that FFXIV's population will ever be measured in terms of hundreds of thousands and will more than likely hover in the tens of.....high tens at best They had a chance to make a positive impact on the MMO industry and failed. And that failure won't soon be forgotten by either the industry or players; who are even now looking to the next round of new releases on the horizon for 2011 and beyond.
If that's the case, the game will likely be taken offline anyway.
Personally, I think if/when they get the game turned around, it will bring back more people who've been on the sidelines, those who want to play it but not in its current state, etc. etc.
Hell even with the game in its current state, there are people still taking the plunge because they still find aspects of it intriguing.
Also keep in mind... not everyone wants to play those new releases coming on the horizon. Speaking for myself, the only one that has my interest and has for a while is TERA. GW2 don't interest me. ToR definitely doesn't interest me. RIFT doesn't interest me, and so on.
FFXIV players should be content with the knowledge that Square Enix are trying to fix their mistakes, but expecting the game to make some sort of miraculous comeback and somehow become the 'success' that players initially hoped that it would be is wishful thinking. If MMO history lessons have taught us (as players) anything it is that miracles don't happen.
400k-500k players isn't that much when you consider the game is out in the US, Europe, Japan, China, France and Germany. That's not just a population from the Western markets alone.
I don't think those numbers are unrealistic at all if SE turns the game around successfully.
1,000,000+? Yes, I would agree is wishful thinking at this point. I would also argue that saying "they'll never pass the high 10s of thousands" is, in its own way, wishful thinking... conjecture to be sure.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
As far as Campaign and such goes... while it did kill traditional XP parties it was a boon to the game. The reason was simple... it was a hell of a lot more fun to go in with many other random players and those in your party and lay waste to hordes of beastmen in the name of your Nation and what not.
I'm not disagreeing with that. It *was* fun, and *did* add to the experience. I even noted as much in my post.
I *would* like to see something similar in XIV... only done in a way so as to not all but completely kill another core aspect of the game... specifically grouping in XI.
Though I do agree with them needing to rework it a bit as having to go back and grind the skills after getting the levels was a pain lol.
Well, it's more to de-incentivize people from doing it. I mean, people didn't *have* to grind to 75 in Campaign and then go back and form what were essentially xp parties to catch their skillpoints up. It's something they, for whatever reason, found to be 'more efficient'.
It's something that always had me shaking my head... and still does when I think about it.
However, people in XI convincing themselves that it was "more efficient" to do essentially *two* level grinds: one to get xp, the other to get their SP caught up, than to earn both at the same time via normal xp parties is a wonderful example of how short-sighted, even illogical, people can become when all they care about is what level they are. I can easily extrapolate that out to how it applies to players in other MMOs as well. But that's for another topic.
I did like the traditional grind aspect of FFXI and their take on it as it was fun, but in the end campaign and besieged were just a great deal more fun. It was also a nice alternative to LFG endlessly on some days lol. You flag up and wait... nothing pops up when you need so you hop on over to one of the outposts and jump into the fray.
And for those moments is when Campaign or even FoV were perfect (along with crafting, farming, etc). Things to do while waiting for a group instead of sitting around.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Campaign, Besieged and level sync were the greatest things to ever happen to XI. Why SE didn't expand on those 3 things in XIV is beyond me. They were ahead on the whole "dynamic content" thing and completely dropped the ball on it.
I don't believe those things killed traditional exp parties, i just think players realized participating in those things were more fun than pointless party grinds on meaningless mobs. I personally always grouped for those things also which made them more fun. If anything killed exp parties it was the ridiculous SMN burn parties that thankfully i was never a part of.
For years, the only way to gain levels was party grinding. SE gave us other options, which were still slower than parties, and people complain? More options are always better. I've done my fair share of 8 hours straight exp parties mostly due to how difficult the game made leveling. You find a party and you don't wanna leave because it may be days before you get another one. I've also gone days without invites so i know how rough it can be. I personally have no desire for that sort of thing again.
FFXIV failed to capture the essence of XI, which is impossible. Those days have come and passed. It also failed to evolve enough to capture a newer crowd of fans. SE managed to piss off players on both sides of the fence. All they had to do was update the UI and combat mechanics of XI and they would have had a fantastic hit on their hands.
Not a single damn thing in XIV is better than XI, minus the polygons.
400k-500k players isn't that much when you consider the game is out in the US, Europe, Japan, China, France
400k+ is a huge number when you are looking at games outside of the WOW bracket. You could most probably combine all the major (big name studios) game releases for the past 3-4 years and they would be lucky to have over 500k active paying subscribers combined.
WAR, AoC, Aion, STO, CO etc. sold hundreds of thousands of copies and then promptly nose-dived into the relam of server mergers to support their dwindling subscriber base after mass exoduses from the respective games. No, I don't believe that FFXIV will ever see numbers in the hundred of thousands, as I said earlier, high tens at best. It doesn't mean that it can't ever be a good game, I just don't feel that it will be a game that will ever appeal to the masses regardless of the changes that are made. The game's name has been tarnished by this debacle and in 6 onths time many who may have been at one time interested in the game will more than likely have moved on. Why wait around hoping for a game to get better, when there is still a chance that it won't?
All they had to do was update the UI and combat mechanics of XI and they would have had a fantastic hit on their hands.
Your post is conflicting. The party system wasn't good- this game has better system (not perfect). The economy wasn't good. Simply leaving them as-is would have been a disaster, and we both know it.
Don't let the nostalgia fool you.
Using LOL is like saying "my argument sucks but I still want to disagree".
400k-500k players isn't that much when you consider the game is out in the US, Europe, Japan, China, France
400k+ is a huge number when you are looking at games outside of the WOW bracket. You could most probably combine all the major (big name studios) game releases for the past 3-4 years and they would be lucky to have over 500k active paying subscribers combined.
WAR, AoC, Aion, STO, CO etc. sold hundreds of thousands of copies and then promptly nose-dived into the relam of server mergers to support their dwindling subscriber base after mass exoduses from the respective games. No, I don't believe that FFXIV will ever see numbers in the hundred of thousands, as I said earlier, high tens at best. It doesn't mean that it can't ever be a good game, I just don't feel that it will be a game that will ever appeal to the masses regardless of the changes that are made. The game's name has been tarnished by this debacle and in 6 onths time many who may have been at one time interested in the game will more than likely have moved on. Why wait around hoping for a game to get better, when there is still a chance that it won't?
Just a small correction for this really oO... Aion still has millions of subs lol. It's second only to WoW. 3.5 mil in Asia alone, at least last time I checked in on it. They had roughly 5 mil to start with but dwindled to 3.5 mil. While thats a huge dip... it's still well over 500k.
It's so funny, it's sad really...SE has become the clown of the genre.
Should man up and behave like WAR and AoC, no silly free trials, pay up or get out.
SE should get props for keeping the game relatively free. It's certainly well beyond what Cryptic, Funcom and company were willing to do when they released garbage.
parrotpholk-Because we all know the miracle patch fairy shows up the night before release and sprinkles magic dust on the server to make it allllll better.
Comments
He is talking in terms of active subs in FFXIV not total unit sold.
Bite Me
The game had that many active subs for a week
Lol for a week. Good job i guess..hahahah!!
Bite Me
With only PC version!
JP's bought the least amount of copies because no PS3 version- no JPs :'(
I would never bother with this game, not my thing but it is interesting to see a developer not just admit failure but to have the decency of not trying to charge a subscription for a game they admit is bad. Another thing noone posting here seems to have picked up on are the reasons behind delaying the PS3 release, I wonder if Sony had anything to do with that as console producers have huge control over the release and licensing of games for their platforms.
Also the bringing in of a new unknown guy to lead the project seems like they are bringing in a yes man, someone that they will have an easier time with dictating the exact direction the changes should be taking.
Currently playing:
EVE online (Ruining low sec one hotdrop at a time)
Gravity Rush,
Dishonoured: The Knife of Dunwall.
(Waiting for) Metro: Last Light,
Company of Heroes II.
XI has been hovering around the 300k subs mark since the end of 2008 or so.
XIV sold more than 500k copies initially, so they did break it.
He is talking in terms of active subs in FFXIV not total unit sold.
Since FFXIV is free to play, aren't all subscriptions still active?You can still cancel your accounts even if it is free. But what matters is that how many players bother to log in to play even during free times. Before SE removed ability to check server population numbers, things weren't looking that good.
Bite Me
Oh yes, the game is flourishing as we speak!
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
You would think, but even free I know many canceled lol. They could have resubed but ... honestly if they had 100-200k subs they would likely be charging instead of asking everyone to be patient and offering the game with no sub atm. Considering that this is still so close to launch ... it makes me wonder if they had a concurrent 100k+ willing to sub at any point.
They probably did... but I just don't see it with the way things have turned out. Selling 500k boxes means nothing if no one picks up the sub, at least it doesn't mean anything for a pay to play MMO.
I doubt that FFXIV's population will ever be measured in terms of hundreds of thousands and will more than likely hover in the tens of.....high tens at best They had a chance to make a positive impact on the MMO industry and failed. And that failure won't soon be forgotten by either the industry or players; who are even now looking to the next round of new releases on the horizon for 2011 and beyond.
FFXIV players should be content with the knowledge that Square Enix are trying to fix their mistakes, but expecting the game to make some sort of miraculous comeback and somehow become the 'success' that players initially hoped that it would be is wishful thinking. If MMO history lessons have taught us (as players) anything it is that miracles don't happen.
I agree, very few MMOS get a second chance. This game will end up just like WAR, AOC and Vanguard. No matter how much these games have improved over the years players just won't give it another chance. And i can totally understand why.
Some of the fans here are just way too excited over this news as if it is going to make huge difference down the line. FFXIV will never ever be anywhere close to success of FFXI.
Bite Me
As far as Campaign and such goes... while it did kill traditional XP parties it was a boon to the game. The reason was simple... it was a hell of a lot more fun to go in with many other random players and those in your party and lay waste to hordes of beastmen in the name of your Nation and what not.
Though I do agree with them needing to rework it a bit as having to go back and grind the skills after getting the levels was a pain lol.
I did like the traditional grind aspect of FFXI and their take on it as it was fun, but in the end campaign and besieged were just a great deal more fun. It was also a nice alternative to LFG endlessly on some days lol. You flag up and wait... nothing pops up when you need so you hop on over to one of the outposts and jump into the fray.
Aaaargh. Thank you. That will be all.
Posting this just for some LOL's...
Bite Me
I can tell you EXACTLY why this game is failing.
1. The patcher doesn't work after install. It didn't work in beta and it didn't work in retail. I waited SIX WEEKS before activating my account, and that was because I was bored enough to go locate and download several manual patches / torrents from a third party website. I would guess a majority of people who picked this up, tried to install and couldn't launch it just said "**** it". The official website didn't recognize this issue, fix the issue or offer guidance. Not everyone has used BitTorrent or trusts what they download, or has the savvy to find a patch, so from the beginning there was a severe obstacle for the user.
2. When you DO get into the game, its impossible to apply any pre-existing knowledge of MMO user-interfaces. WHY companies choose to re-invent the wheel and force players to learn a new UI is beyond me. I can understand if the mechanics of your game is something truly novel, but FFXIV looks like a typical MMO to me.
Personally I didn't enjoy my time in-game and I really didn't like the whole database'esque feel of the inventory system. This is what happens when games are designed by database administrators without the input of a game designer.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
I really wanted to like this game, but I think XIV is history...
We got 5-7 MAJOR MMO's coming in 2011, I really don't think XIV has a chance.
At least I think this is a good example for the upcoming MMO. They better be ready.
What could XIV possibly do to compete with the upcoming MMO....? idk...
Guild Wars 2's 50 minutes game play video:
http://n4g.com/news/592585/guild-wars-2-50-minutes-of-pure-gameplay
Everything We Know about GW2:
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/287180/page/1
WTF? Give me a refund.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Campaign, Besieged and level sync were the greatest things to ever happen to XI. Why SE didn't expand on those 3 things in XIV is beyond me. They were ahead on the whole "dynamic content" thing and completely dropped the ball on it.
I don't believe those things killed traditional exp parties, i just think players realized participating in those things were more fun than pointless party grinds on meaningless mobs. I personally always grouped for those things also which made them more fun. If anything killed exp parties it was the ridiculous SMN burn parties that thankfully i was never a part of.
For years, the only way to gain levels was party grinding. SE gave us other options, which were still slower than parties, and people complain? More options are always better. I've done my fair share of 8 hours straight exp parties mostly due to how difficult the game made leveling. You find a party and you don't wanna leave because it may be days before you get another one. I've also gone days without invites so i know how rough it can be. I personally have no desire for that sort of thing again.
FFXIV failed to capture the essence of XI, which is impossible. Those days have come and passed. It also failed to evolve enough to capture a newer crowd of fans. SE managed to piss off players on both sides of the fence. All they had to do was update the UI and combat mechanics of XI and they would have had a fantastic hit on their hands.
Not a single damn thing in XIV is better than XI, minus the polygons.
400k+ is a huge number when you are looking at games outside of the WOW bracket. You could most probably combine all the major (big name studios) game releases for the past 3-4 years and they would be lucky to have over 500k active paying subscribers combined.
WAR, AoC, Aion, STO, CO etc. sold hundreds of thousands of copies and then promptly nose-dived into the relam of server mergers to support their dwindling subscriber base after mass exoduses from the respective games. No, I don't believe that FFXIV will ever see numbers in the hundred of thousands, as I said earlier, high tens at best. It doesn't mean that it can't ever be a good game, I just don't feel that it will be a game that will ever appeal to the masses regardless of the changes that are made. The game's name has been tarnished by this debacle and in 6 onths time many who may have been at one time interested in the game will more than likely have moved on. Why wait around hoping for a game to get better, when there is still a chance that it won't?
Your post is conflicting. The party system wasn't good- this game has better system (not perfect). The economy wasn't good. Simply leaving them as-is would have been a disaster, and we both know it.
Don't let the nostalgia fool you.
Just a small correction for this really oO... Aion still has millions of subs lol. It's second only to WoW. 3.5 mil in Asia alone, at least last time I checked in on it. They had roughly 5 mil to start with but dwindled to 3.5 mil. While thats a huge dip... it's still well over 500k.
SE should get props for keeping the game relatively free. It's certainly well beyond what Cryptic, Funcom and company were willing to do when they released garbage.
parrotpholk-Because we all know the miracle patch fairy shows up the night before release and sprinkles magic dust on the server to make it allllll better.