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Poll: Why is PvP dying?
pupurun
Member UncommonPosts: 561
Well someone could disagree with me and tell me that "pvp isn't dying" but we all see how pvp is always an afterthought in the majority of mmorpg companies.Every game that comes out or any older one that tries to maintain its player base focuses mainly on PVE aspects.Even games that were created mainly for PvP eventually do that.
So for the ones that agree with me pls answer the poll. Anyone who doesn't feel that PVP is second rated by developers pls disagree in another post.
Comments
I think you missed a big one; "Because consequence-less PvP has come to dominate the market and many non-persistant games offer better "match" style PvP than any MMO ever will"
i voted 2. there is a certain type of people who go out of there way to disrupt any fun someone is having. i love pvp and personally only play pvp games, but you do occasionally see people getting harassed in *all* games, for the sake of 'being a dick'. That is one reason people don't enjoy it.
That...and the fact human nature kicks in and people are a bit more competitive, adding to more drama, attempts for competitive advantages (hacking), and the like.
Simply because pvp mmorpgs are way harder to make successful than pve ones. It's due to fact that good pvp requires balance, and mmos have various classes, character builds, class combos etc. Companies are just going easy way on most cases, making solid pve game is less risk than pvp one.
And where is the option "most games have badly implemented PvP" ?
Looking at GW2 which is going to be big we can also see a lot of focus being put on PvP.
QFT
True mages don't die. They strategically miscalculate.
People get griefed in games that don't even have PVP. In fact games that don't have pvp the griefers have to be more vreative and generally are more harmful than someone who camps your corpse.
"I am not in a server with Gankers...THEY ARE IN A SERVER WITH ME!!!"
Indeed, this is certainly a major factor.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
The explanation can be made simply or complicated but in the end it comes to the conclusion that todays pvp games make to many gamers feel bad and nobody pays for feeling bad.
In the moment you make a pvp world persistent and make the poeple who lose more often then win aware they be the loser, the victims for all the pro gamers that rule this noob asses, you make the majority of your player base feel bad and they will leave.
In non persistent pvp games every one starts every match from zero and the loser will remind the few occasion he has won as the highlight of his gaming session and forget about he many losses while the winner feels good anyway.
In a persistent world this is impossible.
Also, even if someone would like to begin a persistent pvp game and stand the hardships of losing the crowd of fresh meat eaters would jump immedietly onto this player bcs he is a weak target and an easy win and pvp in real is not about having even fights, honorable duells but it is about headcounting in all of todays persistent pvp worlds, of slaughtering the weak and unexperienced.
Some games like EvE, or in the past Daoc have found ways to make you feel not a loser but a praticipant that even if you may not win the headcount personally you have contributed something valuable to the success of your side with your effort.
And these games do NOT FORCE you to participate but INVITE you.
Eve still grows and Daoc is still seen as the highlight of MMO-Fantasy-PvP in a persistent world.
PS: Also FPS gamers play FPS games and RPG gamers play RPG games with RPG controls and not a freakin shooter like most of this new wannabe ffa pvp mmos try to implement.
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I dont think PvP is "dying".
The next MMO I'll play is SWTOR and it comes with PvP.
This makes no sense.
In other words:
PvP is dying because PvP with out consequences is thriving.
I agree with the second part. That non-mmos have better consequenceless PvP.
"Never met a pack of humans that were any different. Look at the idiots that get elected every couple of years. You really consider those guys more mature than us? The only difference between us and them is, when they gank some noobs and take their stuff, the noobs actually die." - Madimorga
consequences, or just plain nothing to be gained from it.. which isnt the same thing at all.. the best pvp game i've ever encountered, was Planetside, there was little to lose on a personal basis, but losing a battle in planetside did have consequences, ie.. losing a base, or not capturing it.. which often meant that a vital piece of technology became unavailable.. one of the reasons i think why even games like DFO arent really all that successful, despite being pvp orientated, is because it focuses too much on the individual.. that and the grind of course.. if the grind was removed from the game, or at least the reason for it.. enable a day 1 noob to be able to kill a year 5 vet and the playing field will be more balanced.. that was the advantage planetside had.. it didnt matter how long you had been playing, the only real advantage any player had over another, was their own personal abilities.. tactical knowlege, and..the ability to work as part of a team..
Griefing/ganging always prevents population growths, and in turn causes players on both sides of that spectrum to lose interest and eventually stop playing.
If PvPers were actually interested in legit PvP and not just out numbering or praying on the weak, then it would be more popular, but no PvP games and servers means 'getz tha newbz!1!11!!' to most people. If it were not that way we wouldn't have PvP and PvE sub-groups, we would just have players.
So if PvP is actually dying (I have no clue, it's evolved into something I want no part of anymore), then it is only your overenduldged e-peen's to blame.
QFE
I wrote a longer answer but deleted it because ericbelser just got it right. Nothing more to add.
Something that was always dead cannot be dying...
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn!
"I am not in a server with Gankers...THEY ARE IN A SERVER WITH ME!!!"
Because only a small number of devs ever did PvP right? Mythic, Aventurine, CCP.
Mostly i think its because their 'bolting on' a PVP section into a game thats meant to be PVE.. though most these days seem to be not just PVE but single player games.. PVP isnt 1 v 1.. its not even 8 v 8.. any PVP game needs to be able to handle 100+ combatants..
And none of those models proved to be wildly popular.
I'm assuming the OP is bemoaning the lack of PVP centric MMO's (probably FFA, Full loot or some other serious consequences) vs the horde of MMO's which all offer PVP right now. (when was the last time you saw a MMO released w/o PVP?)
True, most of these games aren't designed around it, but that's because people enjoy doing PVE content. I enjoy PVE more than PVP, because most times there's just nothing that interesting about PVP. Run out, press some keys, kill or be killed (be killed in my case is more common) and then rinse and repeat. In most cases, there are no real rewards and I don't enjoy it.
I did love DAOC and EVE however, I like my PVP to have a purpose, primarily taking control of an area in game and denying others access to it. (our turf sort of mentality).
In an average game, such as Rift, I never go out of my way to kill another player even though I'm on a PVP server. Just not how I'm wired, why would I want to screw up their fun if they're busy doing their PVE activities? Just because they are there doesn't mean they want me to gank them.
So I don't think there's really a problem here, unless of course you're a fan of a more open PVP experience. its true, few games are catering to that play style and its not likely to change any time soon.
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This. Also...
The PvP-centric game that is enjoying the most success right now is Eve Online. This is because everyone has access to all skills, provided they meet the prereqs. The players themselves are given the task of PvP balance. If CPU management was an OP skill, for example, all anyone has to do is learn it. And unlike the other FFA PvP games, you don't lose the ability to learn it if you have a griefer after you. All you need to do is get through hi-sec space to a university, or search the market nearby. And even if you can't do that, you still have plenty of skills you can keep beefing up to counter your ganker.
The other games, MO and DF for example, are built to where other players can prevent you from working on the skills you need, to... keep them from preventing you from working on the skills you need.
Lastly, and this is an invaluable quote I'm stealing from LizardSF:
"No one will pay $15 a month to be someone elses bitch."
If you create a game which caters to gankers and low level players see no means for avoidance or recourse, they will leave. It's that simple.
You gankers out there. You are destroying the games you enjoy. You are actually ganking YOUR OWN GAME. You are probably no small reason why DCUO is going down the tubes. Xfire had a video just yesterday of some A-hole just running around ganking lowbees. Those lowbees will probably end up quitting. Good job.
I remember playing Dragon Realms, a MUD where PvP was entirely possible, but discouraged. But in order to attack, you had to advance on them, giving plenty of time to prepare. There was also a fair amount of time between attacks so you could say things and emote during the fight. It made for a GREAT dramatic RP experience.
Until PvP becomes that experience again, rather than the current, "You showed up on my screen and and conned low, so OF COURSE I had to kill you.", these PvP games will always struggle and likely die.
Most mmos out now are PvE centric resulting in strange PvP balance issues. Usually what ends up happening is the PvP crowds have the loudest voices resulting in nurfs making a class borderline useless in PvE until the next round of "balancing." I am not one for PvP so I couldn’t care less if a game had any at all. Arena type PvP (or battlegrounds as they are better known) are all fine and dandy as long as my class isn’t getting beat with the nerf stick because it “pwns” in some pathetic game of “rock, paper, scissors.”
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You wouldn't understand
Well a lot of my pvp blues are due to flaws built into the games. Take a look at dcuo where the cheating is rampant, and little being done to fix it. DCUO had issues in beta with pvp cheating. OK now lets take a look at Fallen Earth not much cheating however lots of ganging 20 folks killing one person, nobody likes that kind of pvp. Look at that mess called SGR spawn camping.
So I could site other examples, not fun to play games where cheating and ganging is rampant.
EVE Online is hardly PVP centric with majority of players living in safe empire space and only 15% population in lawless areas.
PVP is big part of EVE Online but hardly makes it PVP centric. I think CCP realized long ago that if they develop the game as PVP centric it will die quickly like all others.
Also you are very illusional about EVE game balance. The game balance there is a joke currently. The game suffers balancing issues like any other game out there, always had and always will.
It's because PvP runs contrary to the design of MMORPGs.
A Good MMORPG requires meaningful character development (levels, stats, equipment, etc), which inherently unbalances the power between players.
Good PvP requires balance between those fighting each other.
When you mix the two together, you get an unbalanced mess.
So now you have a completely skewed PvP system where some people have no chance to defend themselves because of their level, gear, or they're simply outnumbered. And conversely you have people who are max level, ave amazing gear, and have a lot of friends who like to all go around and beat on those who can't defend themselves.
Fun? Not for everyone.
So how do developers try to balance out PvP fights? They shove people into instances and onto restricted teams to try to 'balance' things out evenly. Of course, instanced PvP is pretty meaningless. It's detatched from the game, and winning or losing only impacts how much "reward" tokens you get... to buy yourself more PvP gear -- and imbalance things even more.
PvP really doesn't mesh well in an MMORPG environment. That's not to say you couldn't have an MMO that does PvP well... just not an MMORPG.
What exactly is interesting about pve? Do you not press some keys, kill or be killed and rinse and repeat in that as well? At least in pvp your opponent actually adapts.
Or are the shinies from pve interesting?
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
one word: daoc
four words: dark age of camelot
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