Originally posted by raistlinm Originally posted by Saorlan
Originally posted by scottec1425 I got to thinking, and I by no means to disrespect this gaming franchise at all. But I think what the wrighter of this artical needs to go play is Lego: Starwars. Its everything he wants, You can one hit bad guys with lightsabers and blasters, its action packed. I enjoy playing the Lego Franchise with my kids. I dont find it a challange, but my 4, 6, 9 year old's all do and enjoy it. Sounds right up this wrighters ally of games he needs to experiance.
Sorry but could you please sort your spelling out, even if you are not a native speaker just use a spell checker ... wrighter? The OP is stating that he thinks the traditional EQ clone style combat is not good enough for a star wars game. I agree, so many others. FPS style combat requires skill and is actually fun. Pressing tab to target and button mashing abilities with cool downs in NOT fun. Bioware missed out BIG time here, so did Sony in SWG. Fun is subjective you find it fun some don't care. As a matter of fact enough people don't care that it isn't being changed.
Yes and because they are going for the boring EQ clone combat they have missed out on a massive opportunity. Hence the article!
Also yes I am waiting more for a sony online game more than a bioware one because whilst Sony online messed up with SWG in the past they still make better games than the linear crap that bioware churn out. Also if you ever played PlanetSide then you know why it is of far more interest than this teenage kiddy themepark of a grind, I mean game.
Originally posted by Saorlan Originally posted by raistlinm
Originally posted by Saorlan
Originally posted by scottec1425
I got to thinking, and I by no means to disrespect this gaming franchise at all. But I think what the wrighter of this artical needs to go play is Lego: Starwars. Its everything he wants, You can one hit bad guys with lightsabers and blasters, its action packed. I enjoy playing the Lego Franchise with my kids. I dont find it a challange, but my 4, 6, 9 year old's all do and enjoy it. Sounds right up this wrighters ally of games he needs to experiance.
Sorry but could you please sort your spelling out, even if you are not a native speaker just use a spell checker ... wrighter?
The OP is stating that he thinks the traditional EQ clone style combat is not good enough for a star wars game. I agree, so many others.
FPS style combat requires skill and is actually fun. Pressing tab to target and button mashing abilities with cool downs in NOT fun.
Bioware missed out BIG time here, so did Sony in SWG.
Fun is subjective you find it fun some don't care. As a matter of fact enough people don't care that it isn't being changed.
Yes and because they are going for the boring EQ clone combat they have missed out on a massive opportunity. Hence the article!
Also yes I am waiting more for a sony online game more than a bioware one because whilst Sony online messed up with SWG in the past they still make better games than the linear crap that bioware churn out. Also if you ever played PlanetSide then you know why it is of far more interest than this teenage kiddy themepark of a grind, I mean game.
And yet I find most FPS style combat to be the most boring combat in gaming, even though I am good at it. It seems I am not alone either. You may like that type of combat, but do not assume everyone does. As for Sony . . . not even if they paid me to play. But that is personal prejudice based on not only their games, but the care they take for their customers privacy as well.
"If half of what you tell me is a lie, how can I believe any of it?"
I got to thinking, and I by no means to disrespect this gaming franchise at all. But I think what the wrighter of this artical needs to go play is Lego: Starwars. Its everything he wants, You can one hit bad guys with lightsabers and blasters, its action packed. I enjoy playing the Lego Franchise with my kids. I dont find it a challange, but my 4, 6, 9 year old's all do and enjoy it. Sounds right up this wrighters ally of games he needs to experiance.
Sorry but could you please sort your spelling out, even if you are not a native speaker just use a spell checker ... wrighter?
The OP is stating that he thinks the traditional EQ clone style combat is not good enough for a star wars game. I agree, so many others.
FPS style combat requires skill and is actually fun. Pressing tab to target and button mashing abilities with cool downs in NOT fun.
Bioware missed out BIG time here, so did Sony in SWG.
Fun is subjective you find it fun some don't care. As a matter of fact enough people don't care that it isn't being changed.
Yes and because they are going for the boring EQ clone combat they have missed out on a massive opportunity. Hence the article!
Also yes I am waiting more for a sony online game more than a bioware one because whilst Sony online messed up with SWG in the past they still make better games than the linear crap that bioware churn out. Also if you ever played PlanetSide then you know why it is of far more interest than this teenage kiddy themepark of a grind, I mean game.
Yes because sony did it right with planet side, thats why it only lasted a few years. Or with SWG with the CU, and NGE. Or how about how they made everquest 1 into a more solo game by giving mercs. ps doing the same thing with EQ2. The only games that SoE have put out that have lasted are ones they turned into theam park games.
Maybe planet side 2 will be an amazing MMOFPS. but hey thats what they thought about APB and it floped and now is FTP model and doing better under a new company. But even with being under the FTP model, there still not bringing in the big box MMORPG's are. Theres less of a user base that enjoys that type of game. Its not droping the ball on going for some gamebraking new amazing MMORPG, its hitting the key target audiance. The gamebraking part that Biowere is doing, is fully voiced over MMORPG, not a twich gamers choioce, fine. They have COD, Battlefield, APB, and other games they can play.
The author is right on with his accessment of the game and how perhaps a given class should have been constructed... Most of the peeps here are overreacting, its not like someone is taking your candybar away from you, they are only saying that the game ist good, catters to the average person taste, but, it could be better.
And his opinion might hold a lot more weight if he had actually PLAYED the game, which it is obvious that he has not.
QFT! The author has never played SWToR at all. Actually, he posted that he has no plans to play SWToR.
The debate over third person shooter style (tps) versus first person shooter style (fps) is never going to be resolved. I really, really prefer tps over fps. The only fps I have liked are Borderlands and Battlefield Bad Company. Meanwhile Gears, Uncharted, Mass Effect, Assassin's Creed, etc are much more my style.
I think the writer identifed the problem, but completely missed the mark on providing a solution. LoL have great combat, yet it isn't like one shotting anyone or shooter games.
There is a definite problem with MMO combat, the design for that kind of combat was established like 10-15 years ago when MMOG first started as a genre, even in single player rpg from ages ago as well. Dragon Age bought it back in recent times because none of the single player games has that kind of control, and it was nostalgic, but anyone who played MMO will realise this has been the norm for like........well practically forever.
Technology advanced, but MMORPG players and MMORPG developers hasn't. There is so much design options that they can go with, but they just want to stick to one forumla. Point and click.
Maybe it is time for MMO to move out of the RPG area and be creative.
How much WoW could a WoWhater hate, if a WoWhater could hate WoW? As much WoW as a WoWhater would, if a WoWhater could hate WoW.
I think the writer identifed the problem, but completely missed the mark on providing a solution. LoL have great combat, yet it isn't like one shotting anyone or shooter games.
There is a definite problem with MMO combat, the design for that kind of combat was established like 10-15 years ago when MMOG first started as a genre, even in single player rpg from ages ago as well. Dragon Age bought it back in recent times because none of the single player games has that kind of control, and it was nostalgic, but anyone who played MMO will realise this has been the norm for like........well practically forever.
Technology advanced, but MMORPG players and MMORPG developers hasn't. There is so much design options that they can go with, but they just want to stick to one forumla. Point and click.
Maybe it is time for MMO to move out of the RPG area and be creative.
And how do you propse changing the combat too? your doing exactly what your accuing the artical writer of doing.
I'm really beginning you can tell which players grew up with consoles and which didn't, just by their opinions about MMO combat.
Wonder if we could do a correlation study.
You know...this is such a stereotype. There are plenty of PC games that are twitch based or fast-paced. Like, the entire RTS genre and FPS's (which started on PC, they only became a console sensation after Goldeneye).
I've been playing PC games since the old Sierra Adventure games were popular like King's Quest III and yet I like fast-paced combat. I also like slower paced combat, but I generally prefer FPS style when a game has guns.
You can't just assume someone is a "console kiddie" because they don't like WoW combat. WoW combat is seriously pretty dull. I mean, people can write a KEYBOARD MACRO script that farms for them. This should show you have simple combat is.
When you can literally write a script that says "press TAB, press 1,2,3,1,2,3..." and be successful, then yeah combat is dull.
I even think combat in UO was more interesting. At least in UO you had to run around a lot, bandage when you had to, cast reflect when appropriate...you had to think. True, WoW has tons more abilities than UO had, but this doesn't mean anything if your abilities also devolve into a standard optimal rotation.
I will concede that PvP in WoW is more interesting combat wise simply because you're fighting someone with intelligence, but PvE is terribly boring.
I'm really beginning you can tell which players grew up with consoles and which didn't, just by their opinions about MMO combat.
Wonder if we could do a correlation study.
I started gaming in the early 80's on a C64 and started playing mmos 'back in the day' with UO (which is still my personal favourite mmo). I appreciate mmos for the depth and scope they have when done well and for the social, non combat aspects they bring to gaming (again when done well).
And yet I still find generic mmo combat systems pretty piss poor and something that could be improved upon greatly by incorporating more dynamic and more player driven mechanics instead of stand still, whack-a-mole with random number generation.
Not sure how that would fit in with your correlation study.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
I think AOC had an interesting system, with attacking and blocking different angles and the fatalities were awesome. It's hard to think of something more satisfying than dismembering or beheading your foe and seeing arterial blood pumping out of a stump. Sometimes when I pulled off fatalities during a close battle, I was like, "YEAH!!!! RAAAAAA...take that BITCH!" LOL. Seriously. Other times I just kinda nodded my head and gave a little knowing smirk: uh huh...thas right....
For what it's worth, Neverwinter Nights, a Bioware product, allowed you to switch to gory violence. Blood would spray with bones and body parts everywhere. Not super gory by today's standards, though. So, it's possible you may get your wish. :-)
Sure, Jedi were common in the KOTOR times, but Jedi still could take on several enemies as a newb, and groups of them as Sith Lords or Jedi Masters. Just look at the first two KOTOR games if you don't believe me. I think KOTOR fans wanted SWTOR to represent Jedi as they did in the KOTOR series. With that said, not only Jedi could dominate several enemies. Just look at the Mandalorians in KOTOR.
At any rate, I do think Bioware was cheap when it came to class design. I expected them to create combat and classes the way they did in the KOTOR series, not like WoW did. If I wasn't such a fan of Star Wars, Bioware, and the KOTOR series, then I wouldn't even play SWTOR.
Sure, Jedi were common in the KOTOR times, but Jedi still could take on several enemies as a newb, and groups of them as Sith Lords or Jedi Masters. Just look at the first two KOTOR games if you don't believe me. I think KOTOR fans wanted SWTOR to represent Jedi as they did in the KOTOR series. With that said, not only Jedi could dominate several enemies. Just look at the Mandalorians in KOTOR.
At any rate, I do think Bioware was cheap when it came to class design. I expected them to create combat and classes the way they did in the KOTOR series, not like WoW did. If I wasn't such a fan of Star Wars, Bioware, and the KOTOR series, then I wouldn't even play SWTOR.
If you look through the classes list there you will see things like Jedi Consular, Jedi Guardian, etc, sound familar ?
I think the only games where BW actually created the system and the classes are Mass Effect and Dragon Age. Personally, I prefer the games based on D&D to Dragon Age...there were many more options in those games.
You know...this is such a stereotype. There are plenty of PC games that are twitch based or fast-paced. Like, the entire RTS genre and FPS's (which started on PC, they only became a console sensation after Goldeneye).
I've been playing PC games since the old Sierra Adventure games were popular like King's Quest III and yet I like fast-paced combat. I also like slower paced combat, but I generally prefer FPS style when a game has guns.
You can't just assume someone is a "console kiddie" because they don't like WoW combat. WoW combat is seriously pretty dull. I mean, people can write a KEYBOARD MACRO script that farms for them. This should show you have simple combat is.
When you can literally write a script that says "press TAB, press 1,2,3,1,2,3..." and be successful, then yeah combat is dull.
I even think combat in UO was more interesting. At least in UO you had to run around a lot, bandage when you had to, cast reflect when appropriate...you had to think. True, WoW has tons more abilities than UO had, but this doesn't mean anything if your abilities also devolve into a standard optimal rotation.
I will concede that PvP in WoW is more interesting combat wise simply because you're fighting someone with intelligence, but PvE is terribly boring.
You know it's funny because I've tried MMO's that had active (twitch) combat that I felt were far more dull. Probably because they focused so much on combat the end result was a shallow game with one viable mechanic. That's the key for any game in the end, offering a solid package all around, take what you might consider a dull mechanic, put it on top of a solid foundation with many fun features and you can have a really good game from top to bottom.
This really has nothing to do with TOR as I don't know how solid it's foundation is. My point is turn based combat doesn't make a game bad.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
You know...this is such a stereotype. There are plenty of PC games that are twitch based or fast-paced. Like, the entire RTS genre and FPS's (which started on PC, they only became a console sensation after Goldeneye).
I've been playing PC games since the old Sierra Adventure games were popular like King's Quest III and yet I like fast-paced combat. I also like slower paced combat, but I generally prefer FPS style when a game has guns.
You can't just assume someone is a "console kiddie" because they don't like WoW combat. WoW combat is seriously pretty dull. I mean, people can write a KEYBOARD MACRO script that farms for them. This should show you have simple combat is.
When you can literally write a script that says "press TAB, press 1,2,3,1,2,3..." and be successful, then yeah combat is dull.
I even think combat in UO was more interesting. At least in UO you had to run around a lot, bandage when you had to, cast reflect when appropriate...you had to think. True, WoW has tons more abilities than UO had, but this doesn't mean anything if your abilities also devolve into a standard optimal rotation.
I will concede that PvP in WoW is more interesting combat wise simply because you're fighting someone with intelligence, but PvE is terribly boring.
You know it's funny because I've tried MMO's that had active (twitch) combat that I felt were far more dull. Probably because they focused so much on combat the end result was a shallow game with one viable mechanic. That's the key for any game in the end, offering a solid package all around, take what you might consider a dull mechanic, put it on top of a solid foundation with many fun features and you can have a really good game from top to bottom.
This really has nothing to do with TOR as I don't know how solid it's foundation is. My point is turn based combat doesn't make a game bad.
I agree, turn based or slower combat can be very interesting indeed . Just look at Chess, the old Panzer General games, or console-style RPGs. That new game Frozen Synapse is also a good example of a turn-based game.
I only think that overly repetitive or super easy combat is bad. Basically, if you can write a 10-30 line script that will handle 98% of your combat encounters, then I think something is missing.
Personally, I would like an MMORPG with more active combat just because I'm tired of the same old. But this doesn't mean I don't think slower paced combat can be good.
Personally I'm tired of the "slow combat" only because it's used so frequently. It's not a bad system, but having it in almost every MMORPG i've played throughout my lifetime makes it incredibly stale and boring. With this in mind, I leave you all with one statement. I miss Jedi Knight Jedi Academy combat.
Not sure how that would fit in with your correlation study.
Perfectly well; every exception is also data, just as important as every positive.
Correlation isn't causation; so Mr. Creslin doesn't need to circle the wagons and prepare to fight off the injuns either.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
I think the writer identifed the problem, but completely missed the mark on providing a solution. LoL have great combat, yet it isn't like one shotting anyone or shooter games.
There is a definite problem with MMO combat, the design for that kind of combat was established like 10-15 years ago when MMOG first started as a genre, even in single player rpg from ages ago as well. Dragon Age bought it back in recent times because none of the single player games has that kind of control, and it was nostalgic, but anyone who played MMO will realise this has been the norm for like........well practically forever.
Technology advanced, but MMORPG players and MMORPG developers hasn't. There is so much design options that they can go with, but they just want to stick to one forumla. Point and click.
Maybe it is time for MMO to move out of the RPG area and be creative.
And how do you propse changing the combat too? your doing exactly what your accuing the artical writer of doing.
My previous have done much of the talking (blue text is me)
Originally posted by xKingdomx
Originally posted by Sovrath
I have to say that was my initila gut reaction.
It essentially comes down to a person who is used to one type of combat and clearly is not willing to adapt to , or perhaps he is honest and just doesn't like mmo combat.
Can't you say the same for MMO combat lovers?
But it's an opinion piece nothign more or less.
me personally would always prefer looonger combat as there is a greater chance for someone to redeem themselves during combat. fast combat means that someone can just come in as gangbusters and completely mow over their opponent. if there is never a chance for the attacked to turn the tide, even small, then I dont' see that as fun.
I do see value in letting people to 'redeem' themselves in combat, but making combat slower doesn't make much difference. If you some executed the perfect attack on you, you shouldn't have the chance to 'redeem' yourself, or that makes an unfair advantage against the attacker. So yeah, I would say, execution of combat is the key in your idea of 'redeem' themselves, but not to the point where you can just stand there for 10 sec and not die from attacks. The only scenario that I see fit for counterattack is if the attack make a mistake, to whatever degree game balances see fit to counter.
A lot of people seems to think action combat as FPS, it isn't. It simply means a faster pace of combat, where physical dodging and blocking is key to victory, not based on random percentile dicerolls. Take LoL or HoN for example, they still give you choice to build your character, change skills, but to make things more balance, they dont let you use 30 skills at once, and everyone is viable to win the battle. But in RPG, DPS is need to deal damage, healer is NEEDED to survive, and tank is just there to take damage.
There are A LOT of games with the traditional MMO combat, shouldn't it be time to expand the variety in MMO? I don't think every game requires the trinity to work, nor do they need heavy reliance on diceroll is to make effective combat.
Also in another thread with the same topic
Originally posted by xKingdomx
Not once did the article or the OP mentioned FPS, but talked about Action Combat, yet a lot of post are talking about FPS combat, comprehend? I don't agree with the "one shotting" will be better, but needing 1 min to finish off a mob is pretty ridiculous as well.
Pacing of combat is something MMO has always failed, I'm not asking for one shot, but if I can walk out of the way, why can't I dodge the projectile? Isn't it immersion breaking when an arrow do a 180 and hit you in the back? or you are standing RIGHT in front of an enemy, swung a sword, and completely miss?
One more thing about MMO combat, you spend around 50% of your combat time looking at the interface, not the combat itself. This is because combat is so woefully designed, with global cooldowns and skill cooldown and massive rotation or whatnot, you are playing 'click the button' game, it doesn't matter if the game is rendered in CryEngine 3 max settings, you are just look at a few boxes. Complete fail in design.
And Tab targetting, the worst kind of targetting method out there, complete unintuitive. I'm NOT asking for manual aiming, but something better must be out there. Lets say auto target enemy which is closest to the direction your character is facing, you are still targetting, but it just makes the combat faster, since you can target faster.
A lot of things can be done it improved the quality of MMO combat without making it "FPS" or completely twitch based. But sometimes it's about players not wanting to trying new things. You just need to make systems much more player friendly, not easy mode, but player friendly designed.
How much WoW could a WoWhater hate, if a WoWhater could hate WoW? As much WoW as a WoWhater would, if a WoWhater could hate WoW.
But in RPG, DPS is need to deal damage, healer is NEEDED to survive, and tank is just there to take damage.
There are A LOT of games with the traditional MMO combat, shouldn't it be time to expand the variety in MMO? I don't think every game requires the trinity to work, nor do they need heavy reliance on diceroll is to make effective combat.
I'm just going to cut this bit because it's a good point but it's by no means universal among RPG-type MMOs. Of the dozens I've played, even ones that have trinity setups, very few have required a healer or a tank in order for a team to be viable. The only ones I can think of that I've played are WoW and LOTRO, but I'm sure there are more that I haven't played which have this absolute requirement for trinity play.
My point is that depending on how an RPG-style MMO balances it's classes' skill pools (and how it's skills/attacks are timed, and whether they are queueable or not) its combat can play out quite differently from how you describe. I've not played SWTOR so I can't say whether it'll play like WoW with it's required healers or whether it'll play more like CoX (for example) where healers are handy but a good team of good players can make up for lacking one in other ways.
From what I understand about SWTOR's character progression, almost all classes can get certain elements from each of the traditional trinity roles on top of whatever their specialisation is, so my barely-educated guess would be that it will play more like CoX than WoW and LOTRO. I may be completely wrong about the progression, but I think that any developer worth their salt will try to avoid the "L4Healer" situation that ruins many a gamer's evening, so I'd like to think I'm not.
until home holodecks with direct brain hookups are invented curent combat mechanics are about as good as it is going to get.
why do MMOs still have levels and health bars. Same reason that baseball has bases and bats. Been playing these games since D&D and Ultima RPGs on an Apple 8 bit. Seen a lot of games try and be innovative and most are just memories now. Eve, Ultima, the original SWG were all one of a kinds that just happened to beat the odds. Remember Auto Assault ? Motor City Madness? Wish? Mourning? they were all going to be different. There are tons of MMOs out there now to choose from, and a some with some pretty off the wall concepts. But when ot comes to population the tried and true DIKU MUD based games still have 90% of the playerbase
I agree with Creslin to a great extent. Where did people get the idea that fast paced combat was solely a console specific form of play, while slow paced thinkers are strictly for the PC? I only play games on my computer, to use an example, and I play a very large myriad of games that ranges from Quake Live, to Civilization, to Mass Effect, and old school RPG's like Ultima 7 or Wizardry. It's true that MMO combat is boring and stale. If you haven't reached this conclusion yet, you haven't played them long enough, and it has nothing to do with approaching these games in a console mentality. Truth be told, they're rehashing the same damn thing with minor details or improvements that really make little difference to me, the player, in the long run for a very good reason: when you boil it down, you're doing the same damn thing you did in Game X, or Game Y.
I'm glad some of you took time to describe how there have been different approaches to MMO combat. It's true that not all massively games use the same blue print for action, but these derailments from what has become termed "classic MMO combat" by some of you (and give me a fucking break, no two games should play the same way) are truly few and far between.
Yes, I wanted TOR to be different from what I've seen repeated ad nauseum for the past five years. Again, they're delivering minor improvements upon a system that has already been defined for them, the addition of story and voice overs could truly be amazing in practice, and even if you don't view this as lazy creation, you have to call to question the imagination of their development team. That doesn't necessarily mean I won't play it, but it does mean that I want designers to start rethinking the entire genre or what has become so stereotypical of MMO combat, and really start providing games that you can tell are different from the first moment you engage an enemy (or any other action based involvement, for that matter).
"This is life! We suffer and slave and expire. That's it!" -Bernard Black (Dylan Moran)
Now in Bioware's defense I will say that they at least made storytelling central to the gameplay(something Lucas whiffed on in the prequels). But as far as combat and class balance goes, I completely agree that Bioware could have and should have done something different than mimic generic MMO combat.
Being a jedi was supposed to take extensive training and discipline...it wasn't uncommon in older MMOs for some classes to start out relatively weak and blossom into a very powerful and critical roleplayer in the gameworld. Whereas anybody could pick up a blaster and shoot, it should take some practice to wield a lightsaber AND the force in combat. If that means leveling slower...so be it.
Also a good jedi was supposed to not let anger and aggression motivate his actions...here was an opportunity to put in a "rage" bar that actually limits the way a jedi can engage in combat. When that bar fills up, maybe you lose the ability to parry or block laser blasts for example.
In ROTJ especially you saw where Luke had to resolve situations without his lightsaber...relying only on his wits and the force to get through a problem. That kind of restraint and situational discipline would have made more sense and could have worked in a game.
Maybe the jedi wouldn't be able to go on the same quests as everybody else all the time. They're bound to a moral code so while maybe other classes would have a much broader path, the jedi would to have forgoe some of the opportunities open to other classes.
The more I think about it the more obvious it becomes that Bioware took the easy way out and just copied the generic MMO combat model and really didn't put much effort into doing the jedi justice.
cus this is an MMO targeted to kids that care less about jedi codes, but lightsabers that go zoom
I agree with Creslin to a great extent. Where did people get the idea that fast paced combat was solely a console specific form of play, while slow paced thinkers are strictly for the PC? I only play games on my computer, to use an example, and I play a very large myriad of games that ranges from Quake Live, to Civilization, to Mass Effect, and old school RPG's like Ultima 7 or Wizardry. It's true that MMO combat is boring and stale. If you haven't reached this conclusion yet, you haven't played them long enough, and it has nothing to do with approaching these games in a console mentality. Truth be told, they're rehashing the same damn thing with minor details or improvements that really make little difference to me, the player, in the long run for a very good reason: when you boil it down, you're doing the same damn thing you did in Game X, or Game Y.
I'm glad some of you took time to describe how there have been different approaches to MMO combat. It's true that not all massively games use the same blue print for action, but these derailments from what has become termed "classic MMO combat" by some of you (and give me a fucking break, no two games should play the same way) are truly few and far between.
Yes, I wanted TOR to be different from what I've seen repeated ad nauseum for the past five years. Again, they're delivering minor improvements upon a system that has already been defined for them, the addition of story and voice overs could truly be amazing in practice, and even if you don't view this as lazy creation, you have to call to question the imagination of their development team. That doesn't necessarily mean I won't play it, but it does mean that I want designers to start rethinking the entire genre or what has become so stereotypical of MMO combat, and really start providing games that you can tell are different from the first moment you engage an enemy (or any other action based involvement, for that matter).
Red - Opinion stated as Fact. Actually that can pretty much be said about most of your post.
Blue - This part was funny. Glasses might help though. Games have similiarities. Doesn't make them the same. In your eyes every Platformer, Action RPG, Shooter, Third Person Shooter, etc must be the same to. Games share similiarities get over it.
In War - Victory. In Peace - Vigilance. In Death - Sacrifice.
I think the writer identifed the problem, but completely missed the mark on providing a solution. LoL have great combat, yet it isn't like one shotting anyone or shooter games.
There is a definite problem with MMO combat, the design for that kind of combat was established like 10-15 years ago when MMOG first started as a genre, even in single player rpg from ages ago as well. Dragon Age bought it back in recent times because none of the single player games has that kind of control, and it was nostalgic, but anyone who played MMO will realise this has been the norm for like........well practically forever.
Technology advanced, but MMORPG players and MMORPG developers hasn't. There is so much design options that they can go with, but they just want to stick to one forumla. Point and click.
Maybe it is time for MMO to move out of the RPG area and be creative.
And how do you propse changing the combat too? your doing exactly what your accuing the artical writer of doing.
My previous have done much of the talking (blue text is me)
Originally posted by xKingdomx
Originally posted by Sovrath
I have to say that was my initila gut reaction.
It essentially comes down to a person who is used to one type of combat and clearly is not willing to adapt to , or perhaps he is honest and just doesn't like mmo combat.
Can't you say the same for MMO combat lovers?
But it's an opinion piece nothign more or less.
me personally would always prefer looonger combat as there is a greater chance for someone to redeem themselves during combat. fast combat means that someone can just come in as gangbusters and completely mow over their opponent. if there is never a chance for the attacked to turn the tide, even small, then I dont' see that as fun.
I do see value in letting people to 'redeem' themselves in combat, but making combat slower doesn't make much difference. If you some executed the perfect attack on you, you shouldn't have the chance to 'redeem' yourself, or that makes an unfair advantage against the attacker. So yeah, I would say, execution of combat is the key in your idea of 'redeem' themselves, but not to the point where you can just stand there for 10 sec and not die from attacks. The only scenario that I see fit for counterattack is if the attack make a mistake, to whatever degree game balances see fit to counter.
A lot of people seems to think action combat as FPS, it isn't. It simply means a faster pace of combat, where physical dodging and blocking is key to victory, not based on random percentile dicerolls. Take LoL or HoN for example, they still give you choice to build your character, change skills, but to make things more balance, they dont let you use 30 skills at once, and everyone is viable to win the battle. But in RPG, DPS is need to deal damage, healer is NEEDED to survive, and tank is just there to take damage.
There are A LOT of games with the traditional MMO combat, shouldn't it be time to expand the variety in MMO? I don't think every game requires the trinity to work, nor do they need heavy reliance on diceroll is to make effective combat.
Also in another thread with the same topic
Originally posted by xKingdomx
Not once did the article or the OP mentioned FPS, but talked about Action Combat, yet a lot of post are talking about FPS combat, comprehend? I don't agree with the "one shotting" will be better, but needing 1 min to finish off a mob is pretty ridiculous as well.
Pacing of combat is something MMO has always failed, I'm not asking for one shot, but if I can walk out of the way, why can't I dodge the projectile? Isn't it immersion breaking when an arrow do a 180 and hit you in the back? or you are standing RIGHT in front of an enemy, swung a sword, and completely miss?
One more thing about MMO combat, you spend around 50% of your combat time looking at the interface, not the combat itself. This is because combat is so woefully designed, with global cooldowns and skill cooldown and massive rotation or whatnot, you are playing 'click the button' game, it doesn't matter if the game is rendered in CryEngine 3 max settings, you are just look at a few boxes. Complete fail in design.
And Tab targetting, the worst kind of targetting method out there, complete unintuitive. I'm NOT asking for manual aiming, but something better must be out there. Lets say auto target enemy which is closest to the direction your character is facing, you are still targetting, but it just makes the combat faster, since you can target faster.
A lot of things can be done it improved the quality of MMO combat without making it "FPS" or completely twitch based. But sometimes it's about players not wanting to trying new things. You just need to make systems much more player friendly, not easy mode, but player friendly designed.
And as I stated
"Theres less of a user base that enjoys that type of game. Its not droping the ball on going for some gamebraking new amazing MMORPG, its hitting the key target audiance. The gamebraking part that Biowere is doing, is fully voiced over MMORPG, not a twich gamers choioce, fine. They have COD, Battlefield, APB, and other games they can play. "
If people craved more of the twitch based games, they would be reporting bigger numbers out there then the WoW clones in the MMO World. Its not a hard concempt. Biowere knows what there target audiance wants, and is giving it to them.
Sure, Jedi were common in the KOTOR times, but Jedi still could take on several enemies as a newb, and groups of them as Sith Lords or Jedi Masters. Just look at the first two KOTOR games if you don't believe me. I think KOTOR fans wanted SWTOR to represent Jedi as they did in the KOTOR series. With that said, not only Jedi could dominate several enemies. Just look at the Mandalorians in KOTOR.
At any rate, I do think Bioware was cheap when it came to class design. I expected them to create combat and classes the way they did in the KOTOR series, not like WoW did. If I wasn't such a fan of Star Wars, Bioware, and the KOTOR series, then I wouldn't even play SWTOR.
If you look through the classes list there you will see things like Jedi Consular, Jedi Guardian, etc, sound familar ?
I think the only games where BW actually created the system and the classes are Mass Effect and Dragon Age. Personally, I prefer the games based on D&D to Dragon Age...there were many more options in those games.
Yes, I was already aware of that and that's actually what I thought they were going to do with SWTOR. Maybe not a direct translation, since DDO wasn't able to do it, but "in the spirit" of how things were in KOTOR. I definitely expected them to keep the same names of the advanced Jedi classes from KOTOR in SWTOR. I also thought Mandalorians among other races/classes would be available. I really think Bioware went the easy route (the WoW clone route) when it came to creating almost everything in their game. There are exceptions, of course, but they are playing it too safe with SWTOR. SWTOR should of felt like a direct continuation from the KOTOR series. Instead, they dumbed everything down.
Now in Bioware's defense I will say that they at least made storytelling central to the gameplay(something Lucas whiffed on in the prequels). But as far as combat and class balance goes, I completely agree that Bioware could have and should have done something different than mimic generic MMO combat.
Being a jedi was supposed to take extensive training and discipline...it wasn't uncommon in older MMOs for some classes to start out relatively weak and blossom into a very powerful and critical roleplayer in the gameworld. Whereas anybody could pick up a blaster and shoot, it should take some practice to wield a lightsaber AND the force in combat. If that means leveling slower...so be it.
Also a good jedi was supposed to not let anger and aggression motivate his actions...here was an opportunity to put in a "rage" bar that actually limits the way a jedi can engage in combat. When that bar fills up, maybe you lose the ability to parry or block laser blasts for example.
In ROTJ especially you saw where Luke had to resolve situations without his lightsaber...relying only on his wits and the force to get through a problem. That kind of restraint and situational discipline would have made more sense and could have worked in a game.
Maybe the jedi wouldn't be able to go on the same quests as everybody else all the time. They're bound to a moral code so while maybe other classes would have a much broader path, the jedi would to have forgoe some of the opportunities open to other classes.
The more I think about it the more obvious it becomes that Bioware took the easy way out and just copied the generic MMO combat model and really didn't put much effort into doing the jedi justice.
there nothing wrong with copying games combat every game copys its not like its going to change because you say so ^_^. I like the game dispite the combat really they probly have there resons for going that route.. As i said if no one likes the game dont buy it why waste money on wack game you or she going to dislike the flame the forms later saying how sucks it is. I personally like the game but i ant buying it atm i gave up on mmorpgs for few months taking some time off. I need some school time :P
I agree with Creslin to a great extent. Where did people get the idea that fast paced combat was solely a console specific form of play, while slow paced thinkers are strictly for the PC? I only play games on my computer, to use an example, and I play a very large myriad of games that ranges from Quake Live, to Civilization, to Mass Effect, and old school RPG's like Ultima 7 or Wizardry. It's true that MMO combat is boring and stale. If you haven't reached this conclusion yet, you haven't played them long enough, and it has nothing to do with approaching these games in a console mentality. Truth be told, they're rehashing the same damn thing with minor details or improvements that really make little difference to me, the player, in the long run for a very good reason: when you boil it down, you're doing the same damn thing you did in Game X, or Game Y.
I'm glad some of you took time to describe how there have been different approaches to MMO combat. It's true that not all massively games use the same blue print for action, but these derailments from what has become termed "classic MMO combat" by some of you (and give me a fucking break, no two games should play the same way) are truly few and far between.
Yes, I wanted TOR to be different from what I've seen repeated ad nauseum for the past five years. Again, they're delivering minor improvements upon a system that has already been defined for them, the addition of story and voice overs could truly be amazing in practice, and even if you don't view this as lazy creation, you have to call to question the imagination of their development team. That doesn't necessarily mean I won't play it, but it does mean that I want designers to start rethinking the entire genre or what has become so stereotypical of MMO combat, and really start providing games that you can tell are different from the first moment you engage an enemy (or any other action based involvement, for that matter).
Red - Opinion stated as Fact. Actually that can pretty much be said about most of your post.
Blue - This part was funny. Glasses might help though. Games have similiarities. Doesn't make them the same. In your eyes every Platformer, Action RPG, Shooter, Third Person Shooter, etc must be the same to. Games share similiarities get over it.
Games do have similarities. No genre is as similar from game to game as the MMO genre, however, and this standardized MMO combat that people are talking about doesn't really exist, and should not be the go-to for developers when making a new game. We all know there are many different ways to tackle action in games, it's not simply divided between twitch based or action queue. Even in the other genre's you mention, game designers of those particular games still offer highly varying experiences, and to tell me there's not an amazingly vast difference between COD:MW or Quake (for additional examples: from Oblivion to Mass Effect (RPG), from Limbo to Mario (Platformer), from Red Dead to Dead Space (Third Person Shooter)) is ignorance or stupidity, you can decide for yourself. Most MMO's offer the same core features for every singular aspect, from combat, to transportation, to mapping and questing. Simply dressing this in a different skin isn't good enough, and I'm sorry if some of you feel this is passable, because it isn't.
Also, it is true that my opinion was stated as factual. Do I really believe everyone feels this way? Certainly not, you mouth breathers are still buying the same damn game every time it's rereleased, and have provided a market that designers and studios are absolutely fine with taking advantage of. Why wouldn't they? We've given them the privilege to print money. No, the real reason I stated my opinion as I had is because there is a very defined line in the sand, between those of us who are certain that MMO combat needs differing and fresh approaches, and those of you who really don't give a damn about innovation or creativity, because to many of the market, games still exist only to provide "fun". It's like trying to explain to Average Joe why David Lynch is truly an artist, and not some incomprehensible blather that could never make sense. Some of us get it, others don't, and almost all of this can be reduced to perception.
Edit: Just as an aside, I wanted to mention that what we do here on the MMORPG boards is almost always discussion related to our emotional responses, opinions, or experiences. These are never factual or universal, and change greatly from person to person.
"This is life! We suffer and slave and expire. That's it!" -Bernard Black (Dylan Moran)
Comments
Sorry but could you please sort your spelling out, even if you are not a native speaker just use a spell checker ... wrighter?
The OP is stating that he thinks the traditional EQ clone style combat is not good enough for a star wars game. I agree, so many others.
FPS style combat requires skill and is actually fun. Pressing tab to target and button mashing abilities with cool downs in NOT fun.
Bioware missed out BIG time here, so did Sony in SWG.
Fun is subjective you find it fun some don't care. As a matter of fact enough people don't care that it isn't being changed.
Yes and because they are going for the boring EQ clone combat they have missed out on a massive opportunity. Hence the article!
Also yes I am waiting more for a sony online game more than a bioware one because whilst Sony online messed up with SWG in the past they still make better games than the linear crap that bioware churn out. Also if you ever played PlanetSide then you know why it is of far more interest than this teenage kiddy themepark of a grind, I mean game.
And yet I find most FPS style combat to be the most boring combat in gaming, even though I am good at it. It seems I am not alone either. You may like that type of combat, but do not assume everyone does. As for Sony . . . not even if they paid me to play. But that is personal prejudice based on not only their games, but the care they take for their customers privacy as well.
"If half of what you tell me is a lie, how can I believe any of it?"
Yes because sony did it right with planet side, thats why it only lasted a few years. Or with SWG with the CU, and NGE. Or how about how they made everquest 1 into a more solo game by giving mercs. ps doing the same thing with EQ2. The only games that SoE have put out that have lasted are ones they turned into theam park games.
Maybe planet side 2 will be an amazing MMOFPS. but hey thats what they thought about APB and it floped and now is FTP model and doing better under a new company. But even with being under the FTP model, there still not bringing in the big box MMORPG's are. Theres less of a user base that enjoys that type of game. Its not droping the ball on going for some gamebraking new amazing MMORPG, its hitting the key target audiance. The gamebraking part that Biowere is doing, is fully voiced over MMORPG, not a twich gamers choioce, fine. They have COD, Battlefield, APB, and other games they can play.
QFT! The author has never played SWToR at all. Actually, he posted that he has no plans to play SWToR.
The debate over third person shooter style (tps) versus first person shooter style (fps) is never going to be resolved. I really, really prefer tps over fps. The only fps I have liked are Borderlands and Battlefield Bad Company. Meanwhile Gears, Uncharted, Mass Effect, Assassin's Creed, etc are much more my style.
I think the writer identifed the problem, but completely missed the mark on providing a solution. LoL have great combat, yet it isn't like one shotting anyone or shooter games.
There is a definite problem with MMO combat, the design for that kind of combat was established like 10-15 years ago when MMOG first started as a genre, even in single player rpg from ages ago as well. Dragon Age bought it back in recent times because none of the single player games has that kind of control, and it was nostalgic, but anyone who played MMO will realise this has been the norm for like........well practically forever.
Technology advanced, but MMORPG players and MMORPG developers hasn't. There is so much design options that they can go with, but they just want to stick to one forumla. Point and click.
Maybe it is time for MMO to move out of the RPG area and be creative.
How much WoW could a WoWhater hate, if a WoWhater could hate WoW?
As much WoW as a WoWhater would, if a WoWhater could hate WoW.
And how do you propse changing the combat too? your doing exactly what your accuing the artical writer of doing.
You know...this is such a stereotype. There are plenty of PC games that are twitch based or fast-paced. Like, the entire RTS genre and FPS's (which started on PC, they only became a console sensation after Goldeneye).
I've been playing PC games since the old Sierra Adventure games were popular like King's Quest III and yet I like fast-paced combat. I also like slower paced combat, but I generally prefer FPS style when a game has guns.
You can't just assume someone is a "console kiddie" because they don't like WoW combat. WoW combat is seriously pretty dull. I mean, people can write a KEYBOARD MACRO script that farms for them. This should show you have simple combat is.
When you can literally write a script that says "press TAB, press 1,2,3,1,2,3..." and be successful, then yeah combat is dull.
I even think combat in UO was more interesting. At least in UO you had to run around a lot, bandage when you had to, cast reflect when appropriate...you had to think. True, WoW has tons more abilities than UO had, but this doesn't mean anything if your abilities also devolve into a standard optimal rotation.
I will concede that PvP in WoW is more interesting combat wise simply because you're fighting someone with intelligence, but PvE is terribly boring.
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
I started gaming in the early 80's on a C64 and started playing mmos 'back in the day' with UO (which is still my personal favourite mmo). I appreciate mmos for the depth and scope they have when done well and for the social, non combat aspects they bring to gaming (again when done well).
And yet I still find generic mmo combat systems pretty piss poor and something that could be improved upon greatly by incorporating more dynamic and more player driven mechanics instead of stand still, whack-a-mole with random number generation.
Not sure how that would fit in with your correlation study.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
For what it's worth, Neverwinter Nights, a Bioware product, allowed you to switch to gory violence. Blood would spray with bones and body parts everywhere. Not super gory by today's standards, though. So, it's possible you may get your wish. :-)
Sure, Jedi were common in the KOTOR times, but Jedi still could take on several enemies as a newb, and groups of them as Sith Lords or Jedi Masters. Just look at the first two KOTOR games if you don't believe me. I think KOTOR fans wanted SWTOR to represent Jedi as they did in the KOTOR series. With that said, not only Jedi could dominate several enemies. Just look at the Mandalorians in KOTOR.
At any rate, I do think Bioware was cheap when it came to class design. I expected them to create combat and classes the way they did in the KOTOR series, not like WoW did. If I wasn't such a fan of Star Wars, Bioware, and the KOTOR series, then I wouldn't even play SWTOR.
Just in case you were curious...
KOTOR actually used the D20 Star Wars table top gaming system which is similar to D&D. This is much like how NWN used the D20 D&D system. So Bioware didn't really "create" the system or any classes in KOTOR, they just used the ones from the D20 game (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Wars_Roleplaying_Game_(Wizards_of_the_Coast)#Species_and_classes ).
If you look through the classes list there you will see things like Jedi Consular, Jedi Guardian, etc, sound familar
?
I think the only games where BW actually created the system and the classes are Mass Effect and Dragon Age. Personally, I prefer the games based on D&D to Dragon Age...there were many more options in those games.
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
You know it's funny because I've tried MMO's that had active (twitch) combat that I felt were far more dull. Probably because they focused so much on combat the end result was a shallow game with one viable mechanic. That's the key for any game in the end, offering a solid package all around, take what you might consider a dull mechanic, put it on top of a solid foundation with many fun features and you can have a really good game from top to bottom.
This really has nothing to do with TOR as I don't know how solid it's foundation is. My point is turn based combat doesn't make a game bad.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
I agree, turn based or slower combat can be very interesting indeed
. Just look at Chess, the old Panzer General games, or console-style RPGs. That new game Frozen Synapse is also a good example of a turn-based game.
I only think that overly repetitive or super easy combat is bad. Basically, if you can write a 10-30 line script that will handle 98% of your combat encounters, then I think something is missing.
Personally, I would like an MMORPG with more active combat just because I'm tired of the same old. But this doesn't mean I don't think slower paced combat can be good.
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
Personally I'm tired of the "slow combat" only because it's used so frequently. It's not a bad system, but having it in almost every MMORPG i've played throughout my lifetime makes it incredibly stale and boring. With this in mind, I leave you all with one statement. I miss Jedi Knight Jedi Academy combat.
Perfectly well; every exception is also data, just as important as every positive.
Correlation isn't causation; so Mr. Creslin doesn't need to circle the wagons and prepare to fight off the injuns either.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
My previous have done much of the talking (blue text is me)
Also in another thread with the same topic
How much WoW could a WoWhater hate, if a WoWhater could hate WoW?
As much WoW as a WoWhater would, if a WoWhater could hate WoW.
I'm just going to cut this bit because it's a good point but it's by no means universal among RPG-type MMOs. Of the dozens I've played, even ones that have trinity setups, very few have required a healer or a tank in order for a team to be viable. The only ones I can think of that I've played are WoW and LOTRO, but I'm sure there are more that I haven't played which have this absolute requirement for trinity play.
My point is that depending on how an RPG-style MMO balances it's classes' skill pools (and how it's skills/attacks are timed, and whether they are queueable or not) its combat can play out quite differently from how you describe. I've not played SWTOR so I can't say whether it'll play like WoW with it's required healers or whether it'll play more like CoX (for example) where healers are handy but a good team of good players can make up for lacking one in other ways.
From what I understand about SWTOR's character progression, almost all classes can get certain elements from each of the traditional trinity roles on top of whatever their specialisation is, so my barely-educated guess would be that it will play more like CoX than WoW and LOTRO. I may be completely wrong about the progression, but I think that any developer worth their salt will try to avoid the "L4Healer" situation that ruins many a gamer's evening, so I'd like to think I'm not.
until home holodecks with direct brain hookups are invented curent combat mechanics are about as good as it is going to get.
why do MMOs still have levels and health bars. Same reason that baseball has bases and bats. Been playing these games since D&D and Ultima RPGs on an Apple 8 bit. Seen a lot of games try and be innovative and most are just memories now. Eve, Ultima, the original SWG were all one of a kinds that just happened to beat the odds. Remember Auto Assault ? Motor City Madness? Wish? Mourning? they were all going to be different. There are tons of MMOs out there now to choose from, and a some with some pretty off the wall concepts. But when ot comes to population the tried and true DIKU MUD based games still have 90% of the playerbase
I miss DAoC
I agree with Creslin to a great extent. Where did people get the idea that fast paced combat was solely a console specific form of play, while slow paced thinkers are strictly for the PC? I only play games on my computer, to use an example, and I play a very large myriad of games that ranges from Quake Live, to Civilization, to Mass Effect, and old school RPG's like Ultima 7 or Wizardry. It's true that MMO combat is boring and stale. If you haven't reached this conclusion yet, you haven't played them long enough, and it has nothing to do with approaching these games in a console mentality. Truth be told, they're rehashing the same damn thing with minor details or improvements that really make little difference to me, the player, in the long run for a very good reason: when you boil it down, you're doing the same damn thing you did in Game X, or Game Y.
I'm glad some of you took time to describe how there have been different approaches to MMO combat. It's true that not all massively games use the same blue print for action, but these derailments from what has become termed "classic MMO combat" by some of you (and give me a fucking break, no two games should play the same way) are truly few and far between.
Yes, I wanted TOR to be different from what I've seen repeated ad nauseum for the past five years. Again, they're delivering minor improvements upon a system that has already been defined for them, the addition of story and voice overs could truly be amazing in practice, and even if you don't view this as lazy creation, you have to call to question the imagination of their development team. That doesn't necessarily mean I won't play it, but it does mean that I want designers to start rethinking the entire genre or what has become so stereotypical of MMO combat, and really start providing games that you can tell are different from the first moment you engage an enemy (or any other action based involvement, for that matter).
"This is life! We suffer and slave and expire. That's it!" -Bernard Black (Dylan Moran)
cus this is an MMO targeted to kids that care less about jedi codes, but lightsabers that go zoom
Red - Opinion stated as Fact. Actually that can pretty much be said about most of your post.
Blue - This part was funny. Glasses might help though. Games have similiarities. Doesn't make them the same. In your eyes every Platformer, Action RPG, Shooter, Third Person Shooter, etc must be the same to. Games share similiarities get over it.
In War - Victory.
In Peace - Vigilance.
In Death - Sacrifice.
And as I stated
"Theres less of a user base that enjoys that type of game. Its not droping the ball on going for some gamebraking new amazing MMORPG, its hitting the key target audiance. The gamebraking part that Biowere is doing, is fully voiced over MMORPG, not a twich gamers choioce, fine. They have COD, Battlefield, APB, and other games they can play. "
If people craved more of the twitch based games, they would be reporting bigger numbers out there then the WoW clones in the MMO World. Its not a hard concempt. Biowere knows what there target audiance wants, and is giving it to them.
Yes, I was already aware of that and that's actually what I thought they were going to do with SWTOR. Maybe not a direct translation, since DDO wasn't able to do it, but "in the spirit" of how things were in KOTOR. I definitely expected them to keep the same names of the advanced Jedi classes from KOTOR in SWTOR. I also thought Mandalorians among other races/classes would be available. I really think Bioware went the easy route (the WoW clone route) when it came to creating almost everything in their game. There are exceptions, of course, but they are playing it too safe with SWTOR. SWTOR should of felt like a direct continuation from the KOTOR series. Instead, they dumbed everything down.
there nothing wrong with copying games combat every game copys its not like its going to change because you say so ^_^. I like the game dispite the combat really they probly have there resons for going that route.. As i said if no one likes the game dont buy it why waste money on wack game you or she going to dislike the flame the forms later saying how sucks it is. I personally like the game but i ant buying it atm i gave up on mmorpgs for few months taking some time off. I need some school time :P
.....
Games do have similarities. No genre is as similar from game to game as the MMO genre, however, and this standardized MMO combat that people are talking about doesn't really exist, and should not be the go-to for developers when making a new game. We all know there are many different ways to tackle action in games, it's not simply divided between twitch based or action queue. Even in the other genre's you mention, game designers of those particular games still offer highly varying experiences, and to tell me there's not an amazingly vast difference between COD:MW or Quake (for additional examples: from Oblivion to Mass Effect (RPG), from Limbo to Mario (Platformer), from Red Dead to Dead Space (Third Person Shooter)) is ignorance or stupidity, you can decide for yourself. Most MMO's offer the same core features for every singular aspect, from combat, to transportation, to mapping and questing. Simply dressing this in a different skin isn't good enough, and I'm sorry if some of you feel this is passable, because it isn't.
Also, it is true that my opinion was stated as factual. Do I really believe everyone feels this way? Certainly not, you mouth breathers are still buying the same damn game every time it's rereleased, and have provided a market that designers and studios are absolutely fine with taking advantage of. Why wouldn't they? We've given them the privilege to print money. No, the real reason I stated my opinion as I had is because there is a very defined line in the sand, between those of us who are certain that MMO combat needs differing and fresh approaches, and those of you who really don't give a damn about innovation or creativity, because to many of the market, games still exist only to provide "fun". It's like trying to explain to Average Joe why David Lynch is truly an artist, and not some incomprehensible blather that could never make sense. Some of us get it, others don't, and almost all of this can be reduced to perception.
Edit: Just as an aside, I wanted to mention that what we do here on the MMORPG boards is almost always discussion related to our emotional responses, opinions, or experiences. These are never factual or universal, and change greatly from person to person.
"This is life! We suffer and slave and expire. That's it!" -Bernard Black (Dylan Moran)