Lets be quite frank here. If you are the type of player who absolutely must have better gear then some newb down the road then GW2 is not for you. If you must have better and better stats on gear then GW2 is not for you. So good day and dont even play the game.
Now if you're in what I would consider the silent majority of gamers, those who dont raid and those who look at an MMO as a game and not a way of life then there is plenty to do. Also if you are a PvP'er who lieks fair fights and not the ganker who beats up on little kids and steals their milk money, then you should like GW2 as well.
I hate raiding because it promotes elitism. my ideal of raiding is impromptu server wide annouancements calling for allys to take down a rising threat. Funny how GW2 has just this type of raiding in bosses like the Shatterer and Tequatl the Sunless. GW2 also has tons of dynamic quests that will take a long time to see each chain through to conclusion, and the great thing is you get rewarded after level cap with Karma and gold, yet another reason that DE's will be awesome.
Then we have crafting, PvP, Storymode and Explorable mode dungeons with each having multiple encounters and ways to take the dungeon. There is so much content to see and do that it is amazing to see. Now like I stated If you are the type of player that likes to sit around town in your full epic suit on some bad ass steed that drops only .001% showing off your amazing E-Peen, then this game might not be for you and that for me is a GREAT thing.
True, the endgame gear in GW2 will be balanced, and all lvl 80 gear will be endgame gear.
Balanced isn't the same thing as all the same though. I am sure there will be some good hard to get gear that people of a certain class really want. But even that wont force you to gear up so you can get the gear good enough to try to get the gear you want.
This gear treadmill that everyone seems to accept as "standard" MMO endgame content has only been around since 2004 when WoW appeared. It's not "standard", it's just the bullshit excuse for lack of content we all have to put up with.
GW2 will offer something that has been missing since DAoC released ToA, skill based (rather than gear based) PvP between 3 realms. If that's not something you understand then you either never played DAoC, or didn't like it. For me it was one of the best MMO gameplay experiences I've had since I started with MMO's in 1999.
Get rid of the Trinity. Check!
Get rid of gear grind. Check!
Get some 3 sided, large scale RvR going. Check!
It's almost as if someone decided to make DAoC's spritual successor. What's not to like?
I remember the underworld before dhuum, I remember looking at that ominious citadel door, always wondering what was on the other side. I really hope to see more moments like that in GW2.
Then you won't play regularly. Who said that Anet wants to achieve that? They create a MMO that is supposed to be played because it's fun, not because of some carrot on a stick. As long as they make it fun, there will be people who will return to the game for expansions, or even won't stop playing because there are plenty of fun stuff to do.
Agreed.
I wonder if not switching between 2 or 3 B2P games with less grind really would be the most fun way to play MMOs.
The whole idea of constantly releasing new raid gear tiers is not good for the genre, it turned MMO gaming from being about having fun to a more or less real job. There is no need to invent new and fun things, instead you just slap a little more bonus on next gen gear and release a few similar raids.
Some people find achieving the new gear fun. It may be time consuming but thats to be expected.
Its great GW2 is going the way it is, it means there is an option for those that don't like the current end game gameplay. However that gameplay should never cease to exist for those that like it.
This gear treadmill that everyone seems to accept as "standard" MMO endgame content has only been around since 2004 when WoW appeared. It's not "standard", it's just the bullshit excuse for lack of content we all have to put up with.
GW2 will offer something that has been missing since DAoC released ToA, skill based (rather than gear based) PvP between 3 realms. If that's not something you understand then you either never played DAoC, or didn't like it. For me it was one of the best MMO gameplay experiences I've had since I started with MMO's in 1999.
Get rid of the Trinity. Check!
Get rid of gear grind. Check!
Get some 3 sided, large scale RvR going. Check!
It's almost as if someone decided to make DAoC's spritual successor. What's not to like?
Funny, I remember grinding like a boss to make my uber Shroud in Ultima Online way back when that was a symbol of power. I won't even touch Everquest. Even all the console RPG grinding I did to make money for my characters in games like Wizardry. Do people really forget games existed before WoW? Come on now.
As for not being very motivated to play if all you get for it is 'prettier', that's really a matter of preference. There's no way to candy-coat that, the game gives you great gear for all occasions, all of it pretty much on par with each other (meaning dungeon vs pvp vs event gear) the difference being style. Not everyone likes that. But by the same token, they did the same thing in GW1 and no one seemed to mind. You still have a drive to get the gear because it's a symbol of status, and it's an achievement. Getting Obsidian is still to this day an "Ooh, aah!" moment in the first game.
But as I said, some people are more min/maxer mentality and want their gear to amount to more than looks. This may just not be the game for you. On the plus side, since it's not a sub game, you can easily pick up and play just when something new happens, or when a friends needs help or something. It's not like you need to feel obligated to be ingame every moment of the day, working toward something for yourself. That's sort of what Anet wanted to avoid in the first place.
"Forums aren't for intelligent discussion; they're for blow-hards with unwavering opinions."
This gear treadmill that everyone seems to accept as "standard" MMO endgame content has only been around since 2004 when WoW appeared. It's not "standard", it's just the bullshit excuse for lack of content we all have to put up with.
GW2 will offer something that has been missing since DAoC released ToA, skill based (rather than gear based) PvP between 3 realms. If that's not something you understand then you either never played DAoC, or didn't like it. For me it was one of the best MMO gameplay experiences I've had since I started with MMO's in 1999.
Get rid of the Trinity. Check!
Get rid of gear grind. Check!
Get some 3 sided, large scale RvR going. Check!
It's almost as if someone decided to make DAoC's spritual successor. What's not to like?
This gear treadmill that everyone seems to accept as "standard" MMO endgame content has only been around since 2004 when WoW appeared. It's not "standard", it's just the bullshit excuse for lack of content we all have to put up with.
GW2 will offer something that has been missing since DAoC released ToA, skill based (rather than gear based) PvP between 3 realms. If that's not something you understand then you either never played DAoC, or didn't like it. For me it was one of the best MMO gameplay experiences I've had since I started with MMO's in 1999.
Get rid of the Trinity. Check!
Get rid of gear grind. Check!
Get some 3 sided, large scale RvR going. Check!
It's almost as if someone decided to make DAoC's spritual successor. What's not to like?
I don't know about those games, but I do know that WoW's gear grind was inspired by Everquest with a touch of Diablo II. I mean, of course there are other games that have players work for gear upgrades.
Then you won't play regularly. Who said that Anet wants to achieve that? They create a MMO that is supposed to be played because it's fun, not because of some carrot on a stick. As long as they make it fun, there will be people who will return to the game for expansions, or even won't stop playing because there are plenty of fun stuff to do.
Agreed.
I wonder if not switching between 2 or 3 B2P games with less grind really would be the most fun way to play MMOs.
The whole idea of constantly releasing new raid gear tiers is not good for the genre, it turned MMO gaming from being about having fun to a more or less real job. There is no need to invent new and fun things, instead you just slap a little more bonus on next gen gear and release a few similar raids.
Some people find achieving the new gear fun. It may be time consuming but thats to be expected.
Its great GW2 is going the way it is, it means there is an option for those that don't like the current end game gameplay. However that gameplay should never cease to exist for those that like it.
I'd rather use the word "fulfilling" or "pleasant". I wouldn't call it fun, just as I wouldn't call fun achieving better results in test or getting hard earned raise in job. Either way, there are games on market that specialize in that sort of fulfillment, and that's fine. GW2 just goes for something different.
Then you won't play regularly. Who said that Anet wants to achieve that? They create a MMO that is supposed to be played because it's fun, not because of some carrot on a stick. As long as they make it fun, there will be people who will return to the game for expansions, or even won't stop playing because there are plenty of fun stuff to do.
Agreed.
I wonder if not switching between 2 or 3 B2P games with less grind really would be the most fun way to play MMOs.
The whole idea of constantly releasing new raid gear tiers is not good for the genre, it turned MMO gaming from being about having fun to a more or less real job. There is no need to invent new and fun things, instead you just slap a little more bonus on next gen gear and release a few similar raids.
Some people find achieving the new gear fun. It may be time consuming but thats to be expected.
Its great GW2 is going the way it is, it means there is an option for those that don't like the current end game gameplay. However that gameplay should never cease to exist for those that like it.
I'd rather use the word "fulfilling" or "pleasant". I wouldn't call it fun, just as I wouldn't call fun achieving better results in test or getting hard earned raise in job. Either way, there are games on market that specialize in that sort of fulfillment, and that's fine. GW2 just goes for something different.
Well you can call it whatever you want but to some people it truely is fun.
1987 was the year video game developers dare tread the treacherous grounds of the grind, with releases such as Castlevania-2 and Final Fantasy. Developers effectively increased the gameplay length of a game by 500%, at the same time they were efficiently "adding fluff" instead of content. Somehow this gained popularity in the video game world, even though in any other situation this would be frowned upon.
If anyone cares, Guild Wars has TONS of grinding. Though you don't have to grind, just like you don't have to spend $600.00 a year on a free to pay game.
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
I applaud GW2 for taking a stance against endgame raiding seeing as it effectively kills MMORPGs for a lot of players who lack a significant amount of time to devote to that aspect of gameplay, but I do see endgame as a definate concern in regard to Guild Wars 2 for a couple reasons. One, we know that Guild Wars 1 lacked a real endgame outside of PvP, and while Anet protested that GW1 wasn't an MMORPG while GW2 is such a game, they do follow a similar pay model. Anet doesn't need to worry as much about implementing ways to retain players because there's no monthly subscription fee which could possibly translate to less to do at the max level. Secondly, we have heard fairly little as to what all there is to do once a player achieves the max level outside of PvP and re-running lower level content. Even the guys from Tales of Tyria spoke about this in a recent video and pretty much claimed that PvP will be what keeps players around. Given that PvP was a major focus of GW1, this is fine, and it would be fine no matter what the case, but isn't GW2 set to be a revolutionary PvE experience? It doesn't seem right that a game with revolutionary PvE would only be set to keep players due to its PvP.
Anet said they seek to remove "the grind" from their MMORPG by reducing hte importance of stats and emphasizing skill over gear. Also, the leveling curve will be much shorter, so players won't have to spend months getting to the max level. The problem I have with this is that players need motivation to continue playing. Players need to feel a sense of progression be it in character levels of character stats, and this is true for games outside fo the MMORPG genre as well. If players have no reason to run content aside from "just doing it" or for appearance items, where's the motivation to do anything? Even sandbox MMORPGs give players continued motivation at the endgame even if it's just something as simple as saying that you're going to log in and chop down 50 trees. Even single player RPGs give players motivation for doing everything they do. With Guild Wars 2, it seems like everything you get, in many ways, is available to you right from the start which is where a lot of this "go anywhere, do anything" idea comes from. The issue with this is that GW2 is not a sandbox. It has a definate beginning and end. Once you hit the max level, doesn't your progression effectively stop unless you want some nice looking armor to show off once you ride into town? What motivation do I have to continually explore and area and continually run dynamic events? As cool as they "may be," I can't envision people being content with this in the long term, because those events are eventually going to get boring, and at its essence I still cannot differentiate GW2's level scaling from level scaling in any other game aside from the fact that dynamic events should be different depending on when you travel through an area.
I gotta say ... you're the only one here who dare to give the problem of gw2's endgame content straight out.
most ppl could either say ; " if u dont like it dont play it " or " It's skill > gear scenario" , then it makes me wonder ; how GW2 going to "shackle" us to keep playing for longer term ... ?
Also it makes me remember the ol'vanilla WoW, At that time there wasnt as well much to do once u hit max level ( couple of PvP game, dungeon and raids ), but strangely ppl tend to be more active and engaging than now . And gears (imo) wasnt the biggest 'carrot on stick ' for many players, but more like a reward for persistence., coz u wont see much huge gaps of diffference in stat. ( u wont see extreme difference between normal gear to gear frm raid) .
My point is : although destroying the"raid grinding" concept is indeed revolutianry and yes, positive , players still need a certain ' goal' in mind when playing online game .. Right now in my Brainwashed--moar-than-5-years-of-WoW mind , Gear seems to be the approriate goal ..
GW2 will have more to do at max level than just about any MMORPG ever released. The entire game's content will be open and available at max level without being trivial. You'll be able to explore and fill in your map, do entire zones' worth of content that you didn't visit during your journey, and revisit areas to find new and different events going on than what you experienced the first time you were there. Since events reward you with various currency for purchasing things you want, you'll be able to accumulate the things you want without any limit on what you do (you don't have to do one particular event over and over again trying to get a specific item). You'll be able to join friends regardless of their level or location, and help out newer players in a way that doesn't ruin the content for them.
There will be dungeons which provide multiple different paths and require very focused and skilled players to work as a team. There will be open-world event chains that can scale up to 100 players, and provide massive boss battles at their conclusion. There will be crafting, achievements and feats, collections. There will be tons of replay value with multiple personal story possibilities for each race. There will be skills, recipes, and traits to discover or earn. There will be all sorts of weapon and armor looks to acquire with different stats, and hundreds of dye colors to unlock. All of these are goals that players can pursue.
Whenever ArenaNet adds some new content after release, it will be available to every single player in the game, rather than locked to a specific level range that doesn't serve max level players. A brand new event or dungeon arrives with the latest patch? You can do it right away with your friends regardless of their level, or the level of the content.
In actuality, the only things that will be missing are a gear grind for better stats, and multi-group instances to farm. The fact that those two things just happen to make up the bulk of the endgame in just about every single MMORPG since EQ days doesn't reflect badly on GW2...it reflects badly on the genre and the developers for stagnating on a singular possibility and doing it to death. The lazy bait-and-switch that leads players to either rush to the endgame with their raiding guild or play to max and quit...that will not be part of GW2.
There's nothing at all wrong with enjoying those two things. Certainly some people absolutely love doing the same raids dozens of times for the chance at that next piece of gear which will allow you to do another raid dozens of times. If that is your idea of fun, more power to you! There are tons of games that offer exactly what you enjoy, and there's no chance of them going away anytime soon.
It's important to recognize a simple fact, however. The fact that some people enjoy doing those things doesn't mean that's ALL THERE IS. GW2 not having those things doesn't mean it has no longevity, or no endgame. Quite the contrary...with the removal of barriers and the focus on social play and community, and the way the world will be much more dynamic and changes will persist, GW2 may end up having longer average played times than just about any game since the early genre. It also doesn't hurt that they won't be charging you every month just for the privilege of logging in.
This genre has so much potential for almost unlimited play and choices. GW2 will be exploring some very different mechanics and systems which should hopefully provide much less of a bait-and-switch...and much more of a smooth continuation of the game play you enjoy when you reach max level. It's a game tailor-made for those who truly enjoy the journey and the potential immersiveness of a virtual world (finally!). ArenaNet is providing tons of horizontal advancement to customize your play style and provide you with options, while removing the vertical advancement that permanently separates the player base at max level by putting up barriers of stats, tiers, and trivialized content. They are focusing on making the moment-to-moment, bread-and-butter game play more fun and addictive and engaging...so that it's just fun to play, no matter how you chose to do so.
Originally posted by SuperXero89 The issue with this is that GW2 is not a sandbox. It has a definate beginning and end. Once you hit the max level, doesn't your progression effectively stop unless you want some nice looking armor to show off once you ride into town?
Is there a reason you are ignoring collecting traits and skills or do you just not know about this side of GW2? After you hit max level you can go out and collect all your elite, healing, and utility skills and skill up on any weapons you have not used so your character is more versatile. Also you can go out and collect traits, although we do not know how this is going to work since they are changing how you acquired them. Just like capturing elite skills in GW1 extended the play time and gave people objectives to shoot for I believe traits and skills will do the same for GW2.
I personally have put over 600 hours across 6 characters in GW1 so I do not see any reason why I will not be able to do the same with GW2. I will keep myself busy collecting traits and trying out new builds so I can screw with other people in PVP.
People always ask the question of how hardcore players can distinguish themselves from lower level players if there's no difference stat-wise on gear.
It's a simple answer and you'd only need to look as far as the first Guild Wars to find it. In Guild Wars 1, all players have a very easily accessible max-stat armor set for their class/profession. Getting them was an expense of about 7 to 15 platinum. It's like the equivalent of getting 150 to 350g in WoW, it takes very little effort to raise the funds required and could easily be done by most players in a day or two if you really wanted it, and even less if you're a skilled player who understands the game's economy and how to effectively profit from it.
However...
There are prestige armor sets and, these, by most people's opinions (and reasonably so), look much better than the normal maxed armor sets. They have no stat advantage at all and are only distinguishable by the fact that they're "prestige". But they could cost up to one hundred and fifty times as much money. That's like running into a WoW player with upwards of 50,000g to throw at pure aesthetics (I keep using WoW as an example because it's the most widely played and understood triple A MMO to date so more people than any other game would understand the currency equivalency). It stands to reason players will find themselves logging quite a bit of gaming hours to achieve this (unless you're botting, then you'll end up like this guy), but it's an entirely optional decision for the player to grind. They have NO advantage or disadvantage against another players because they did or didn't decide to grind away 70 hours of their lives trolling around the Underworld for some globs of ectoplasm. They're no better or worse off than other players for having played longer or lesser. They don't have to subject themselves to a content type, end-game gear progression raiding, that the vast majority of players who would say they enjoy these MMO's hardly ever participate in.
There's definitely a substantial amount of players who enjoys putting in a lot of effort and achieving a worth reward and Arena Net recognizes this, but their anti-grind philosophy is centered around the idea that the "grinding" should be completely optional and does not give players a competetive edge.
Also, I think the implication of the Guild Wars 1 title system's influence on Guild Wars 2's achievement system goes underappreciated. Players would find themselves doing a LOT more work and "grinding" than getting Obsidian/Prestige armor to gain the title of "God Walking Among Mere Mortals" (Maxing out almost every title in the game). With more resources and a larger, more involved world, Arena Net has the potential to create thouands of hours of gameplay for those who seek an end-game based on rewards and prestige.
I applaud GW2 for taking a stance against endgame raiding seeing as it effectively kills MMORPGs for a lot of players who lack a significant amount of time to devote to that aspect of gameplay, but I do see endgame as a definate concern in regard to Guild Wars 2 for a couple reasons. One, we know that Guild Wars 1 lacked a real endgame outside of PvP, and while Anet protested that GW1 wasn't an MMORPG while GW2 is such a game, they do follow a similar pay model. Anet doesn't need to worry as much about implementing ways to retain players because there's no monthly subscription fee which could possibly translate to less to do at the max level. Secondly, we have heard fairly little as to what all there is to do once a player achieves the max level outside of PvP and re-running lower level content. Even the guys from Tales of Tyria spoke about this in a recent video and pretty much claimed that PvP will be what keeps players around. Given that PvP was a major focus of GW1, this is fine, and it would be fine no matter what the case, but isn't GW2 set to be a revolutionary PvE experience? It doesn't seem right that a game with revolutionary PvE would only be set to keep players due to its PvP.
Anet said they seek to remove "the grind" from their MMORPG by reducing hte importance of stats and emphasizing skill over gear. Also, the leveling curve will be much shorter, so players won't have to spend months getting to the max level. The problem I have with this is that players need motivation to continue playing. Players need to feel a sense of progression be it in character levels of character stats, and this is true for games outside fo the MMORPG genre as well. If players have no reason to run content aside from "just doing it" or for appearance items, where's the motivation to do anything? Even sandbox MMORPGs give players continued motivation at the endgame even if it's just something as simple as saying that you're going to log in and chop down 50 trees. Even single player RPGs give players motivation for doing everything they do. With Guild Wars 2, it seems like everything you get, in many ways, is available to you right from the start which is where a lot of this "go anywhere, do anything" idea comes from. The issue with this is that GW2 is not a sandbox. It has a definate beginning and end. Once you hit the max level, doesn't your progression effectively stop unless you want some nice looking armor to show off once you ride into town? What motivation do I have to continually explore and area and continually run dynamic events? As cool as they "may be," I can't envision people being content with this in the long term, because those events are eventually going to get boring, and at its essence I still cannot differentiate GW2's level scaling from level scaling in any other game aside from the fact that dynamic events should be different depending on when you travel through an area.
I gotta say ... you're the only one here who dare to give the problem of gw2's endgame content straight out.
most ppl could either say ; " if u dont like it dont play it " or " It's skill > gear scenario" , then it makes me wonder ; how GW2 going to "shackle" us to keep playing for longer term ... ?
Also it makes me remember the ol'vanilla WoW, At that time there wasnt as well much to do once u hit max level ( couple of PvP game, dungeon and raids ), but strangely ppl tend to be more active and engaging than now . And gears (imo) wasnt the biggest 'carrot on stick ' for many players, but more like a reward for persistence., coz u wont see much huge gaps of diffference in stat. ( u wont see extreme difference between normal gear to gear frm raid) .
My point is : although destroying the"raid grinding" concept is indeed revolutianry and yes, positive , players still need a certain ' goal' in mind when playing online game .. Right now in my Brainwashed--moar-than-5-years-of-WoW mind , Gear seems to be the approriate goal ..
Alright, other than the arguments "the whole game is endgame" lets focus on just level 80 content.
There is 1 dungeon every 10 levels starting at level 35, and 8 dungeons total at release.
That means, that at level 80 you will have three dungeons whose story mode (AKA You're supposed to be able to solo it, but you'll have NPCs helping you) STARTS at level 80.
Not only that, but they've stated that the ENTIRE peninsula of Orr is level 80 (which is probably 3-4 entire zones).
PvP gear (earned for level 80) will be earned in "tiers", where the more "Valor" you spend the better looking gear you get.
For example, if you've ever played Castle Wars in Runescape, the decorative armours look better and better as you get higher in the tiers, but cost more tickets (50-150-250-500-1500) per tier.
Many people seem to forget, that for those that DON'T have the best gear and play people who do, it ruins the experience. For example, in WoW these days if you try to get into PvP at level 85, you'll die over and over again because you dont have full Relentless BiS gear, and for many thats disheartening.
I guess my question to you is: Why do you have to be "shackled" to a game?
Your goal would be to get the God Walking Amongst Mere Mortals title, or get that Epic looking set that somebody was wearing when they roflstomped you in 5v5 last week. The deal maker for me is that you get a choice in this game. I could run dungeons for dungeon gear, or PvP, and if i was wearing my tier 5 PvP gear and I wanted to run Zhaitain's Lair in explorable mode with my guild, then i could.
TL:DR: This game is Skyrim Online, in that those goals your looking for you make yourself, and you aren't forced to do a certain thing, to want your BiS or to stick to one type of play, you can do whatever takes your fancy.
Not too sure if the trait system has been completed yet. I do think that the traits will play a major role in the end game goals for character progression.
I guess I won't be playing this hack and slash mmo.
In the other thread you said this wasn't an MMORPG, it was an action MMO with RPG elements. We asked you then what you meant but you didn't reply.
If you ask 100 people what it means to be an MMORPG, you'll get 100 different answers.
We don't even know what you read in this thread that prompted your post.
We really believe that through things like the Personal Story, GW2 is trying to put the RPG back in MMORPG.
Why don't you tell us what your concerns are?
"Gamers will no longer buy the argument that every MMO requires a subscription fee to offset server and bandwidth costs. It's not true you know it, and they know it."-Jeff Strain, co-founder of ArenaNet, 2007
I don't know about others but for me end game will be PVP. I spent years in GW just doing PVP and still have so much PVE content left to finish from Nightfall onwards.
As has been stated GW doesn't really revolve around gear, and neither does GW2. They are more tools in the sense that you need a gun to use certain skills, or a sword to use others, and you can add minor enhancements for some perks, but the weapons vary very little in terms of strength w/ out enhancements. It's mostly cosmetic.
In GW1, there were dungeons at the end that you could run to find certain rare weapons that looked cool, and came with the enhancements you wanted built in, or you could go find another weapon you thought looked cool and added the stats you wanted after.
There are 'grinds' at end game, but they are really optional, not mandatory. For example you can grind / farm reputation for places if you need it, or PvP for contribution points to buy new stuff, or farm money / enhancements for your gear. The stuff isn't mandatory by any means, but some people still do it.
thanks for insight on the first GW, ....
Well man, ur point makes me even more confused. Then what is the point for coming online regularly other than having social interaction with ur frens (doing pvp and dungeons)?
Because as far as i can see myself , i wont be motivated enough to go online regularly if the reward is only to make me prettier .. I understand the idea : skill > gear , but rewarding 'no-life' players with only "good looks" is kinda harsh dun u think?
pls dun misunderstand me , i think GW2 is going to give WoW some "ooo shit" moment more and yes i 100% will play this game , but i am just worry that there wont be enough 'to-do' when u reach max level.
Well I play TF2 "regularly" - I take 30min to an hour a day to let off some steam and have fun with my friends. Ocassionally I spend a weekend afternoon or two loosing myself in the game. I suspect GW2 will fill this niche of mine in the long run and since it offers quite a bit more content I might loose a few more afternoons to it than I do to TF2.
That being said, I'm thankful for it . I don't need a game that will occupy 90% of my otherwise empty and pointless life. I want a game that is fun, well made and relaxing and which I can play with my friends or just wander around and hang out with strangers... and which I can leave feeling satisfied rather than vaguely guilty that I'm not "progressing" (hah!) enough. So far, GW2's "endgame" looks just perfect to me.
As for the word "endgame" the point is that in GW2 the "endgame" begins at level 1. Let me explain. If WoW was made according to this principle you'd be raiding from level 1, without having to go through the whole quest-leveling process first. Conversely, you'd have single player quest lines going on even after you achieve max level - they would be tiered just like raids. The thing is that there is so much more you can do in GW2 endgame besides raiding and PvP ing, and that is because ANet is building the game on the premise that the whole game is "endgame."
Once you reach maximum level your way of playing won't magically transform into something completely different. You'll just keep on doing whatever you enjoyed doing during leveling. It's just you'll be lvl 80 and you'll be advancing in some other ways like collecting titles, traits and (mostly cosmetic) gear.
There is PVP and those dungeons in exploration mode of course. But Im not sure if GW2 will ever offer endgame with a gear progression like in other MMO's. I expect that itll just be about looks and not stats. Like in GW1 I expect that the grind will be there for the collectors of titles and complete armourset looks. Where some ppl gather a complete set of FoW armour, while others cant be bothered because its only a different look and not better stats.
Well I play TF2 "regularly" - I take 30min to an hour a day to let off some steam and have fun with my friends. Ocassionally I spend a weekend afternoon or two loosing myself in the game. I suspect GW2 will fill this niche of mine in the long run and since it offers quite a bit more content I might loose a few more afternoons to it than I do to TF2.
That being said, I'm thankful for it . I don't need a game that will occupy 90% of my otherwise empty and pointless life. I want a game that is fun, well made and relaxing and which I can play with my friends or just wander around and hang out with strangers... and which I can leave feeling satisfied rather than vaguely guilty that I'm not "progressing" (hah!) enough. So far, GW2's "endgame" looks just perfect to me.
As for the word "endgame" the point is that in GW2 the "endgame" begins at level 1. Let me explain. If WoW was made according to this principle you'd be raiding from level 1, without having to go through the whole quest-leveling process first. Conversely, you'd have single player quest lines going on even after you achieve max level - they would be tiered just like raids. The thing is that there is so much more you can do in GW2 endgame besides raiding and PvP ing, and that is because ANet is building the game on the premise that the whole game is "endgame."
Once you reach maximum level your way of playing won't magically transform into something completely different. You'll just keep on doing whatever you enjoyed doing during leveling. It's just you'll be lvl 80 and you'll be advancing in some other ways like collecting titles, traits and (mostly cosmetic) gear.
You don't start the dungeons before lvl 35, and they are the really hard content (when you done the story mode which is easier). But besides that you are right.
It will still turn off some players, the type that cheers every time Wow releases a new raid tier but I don't think it is possible to make a game that is great for everyone.
I guess I won't be playing this hack and slash mmo.
In the other thread you said this wasn't an MMORPG, it was an action MMO with RPG elements. We asked you then what you meant but you didn't reply.
If you ask 100 people what it means to be an MMORPG, you'll get 100 different answers.
We don't even know what you read in this thread that prompted your post.
We really believe that through things like the Personal Story, GW2 is trying to put the RPG back in MMORPG.
Why don't you tell us what your concerns are?
Table top RPGs
If you are claiming to be an MMORPG, please show me a game based on the rules set forth by the genre.
If you're only borrowing some elements but the way you play the game is completely different, why not sell the game under a different genre?
The dice should determine everything. Statistical modifiers should tip the dice in your favor. This is what an RPG is about. Leveing up has been deconstruced to the point is has become a gimmick. It's only giving you the illusion that you are actually developing your character. The reality is; you're just strolling through the feeble content they placed in the game to keep you occupied for a few months.
Don't bring up the semantics behind the definition of every word in RPG. Tabletop RPG's are the ORIGINAL and you used a dice to determine your actions.
Comments
True, the endgame gear in GW2 will be balanced, and all lvl 80 gear will be endgame gear.
Balanced isn't the same thing as all the same though. I am sure there will be some good hard to get gear that people of a certain class really want. But even that wont force you to gear up so you can get the gear good enough to try to get the gear you want.
I remember the underworld before dhuum, I remember looking at that ominious citadel door, always wondering what was on the other side. I really hope to see more moments like that in GW2.
Some people find achieving the new gear fun. It may be time consuming but thats to be expected.
Its great GW2 is going the way it is, it means there is an option for those that don't like the current end game gameplay. However that gameplay should never cease to exist for those that like it.
Funny, I remember grinding like a boss to make my uber Shroud in Ultima Online way back when that was a symbol of power. I won't even touch Everquest. Even all the console RPG grinding I did to make money for my characters in games like Wizardry. Do people really forget games existed before WoW? Come on now.
As for not being very motivated to play if all you get for it is 'prettier', that's really a matter of preference. There's no way to candy-coat that, the game gives you great gear for all occasions, all of it pretty much on par with each other (meaning dungeon vs pvp vs event gear) the difference being style. Not everyone likes that. But by the same token, they did the same thing in GW1 and no one seemed to mind. You still have a drive to get the gear because it's a symbol of status, and it's an achievement. Getting Obsidian is still to this day an "Ooh, aah!" moment in the first game.
But as I said, some people are more min/maxer mentality and want their gear to amount to more than looks. This may just not be the game for you. On the plus side, since it's not a sub game, you can easily pick up and play just when something new happens, or when a friends needs help or something. It's not like you need to feel obligated to be ingame every moment of the day, working toward something for yourself. That's sort of what Anet wanted to avoid in the first place.
"Forums aren't for intelligent discussion; they're for blow-hards with unwavering opinions."
I don't know about those games, but I do know that WoW's gear grind was inspired by Everquest with a touch of Diablo II. I mean, of course there are other games that have players work for gear upgrades.
I'd rather use the word "fulfilling" or "pleasant". I wouldn't call it fun, just as I wouldn't call fun achieving better results in test or getting hard earned raise in job. Either way, there are games on market that specialize in that sort of fulfillment, and that's fine. GW2 just goes for something different.
Thank you I needed to feel stupid this morning
Well you can call it whatever you want but to some people it truely is fun.
1987 was the year video game developers dare tread the treacherous grounds of the grind, with releases such as Castlevania-2 and Final Fantasy. Developers effectively increased the gameplay length of a game by 500%, at the same time they were efficiently "adding fluff" instead of content. Somehow this gained popularity in the video game world, even though in any other situation this would be frowned upon.
If anyone cares, Guild Wars has TONS of grinding. Though you don't have to grind, just like you don't have to spend $600.00 a year on a free to pay game.
Wizardry 1, 1981, nobody ever grinded to gain levels. .....Creeping Coins on the first level...........
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
I gotta say ... you're the only one here who dare to give the problem of gw2's endgame content straight out.
most ppl could either say ; " if u dont like it dont play it " or " It's skill > gear scenario" , then it makes me wonder ; how GW2 going to "shackle" us to keep playing for longer term ... ?
Also it makes me remember the ol'vanilla WoW, At that time there wasnt as well much to do once u hit max level ( couple of PvP game, dungeon and raids ), but strangely ppl tend to be more active and engaging than now . And gears (imo) wasnt the biggest 'carrot on stick ' for many players, but more like a reward for persistence., coz u wont see much huge gaps of diffference in stat. ( u wont see extreme difference between normal gear to gear frm raid) .
My point is : although destroying the"raid grinding" concept is indeed revolutianry and yes, positive , players still need a certain ' goal' in mind when playing online game .. Right now in my Brainwashed--moar-than-5-years-of-WoW mind , Gear seems to be the approriate goal ..
GW2 will have more to do at max level than just about any MMORPG ever released. The entire game's content will be open and available at max level without being trivial. You'll be able to explore and fill in your map, do entire zones' worth of content that you didn't visit during your journey, and revisit areas to find new and different events going on than what you experienced the first time you were there. Since events reward you with various currency for purchasing things you want, you'll be able to accumulate the things you want without any limit on what you do (you don't have to do one particular event over and over again trying to get a specific item). You'll be able to join friends regardless of their level or location, and help out newer players in a way that doesn't ruin the content for them.
There will be dungeons which provide multiple different paths and require very focused and skilled players to work as a team. There will be open-world event chains that can scale up to 100 players, and provide massive boss battles at their conclusion. There will be crafting, achievements and feats, collections. There will be tons of replay value with multiple personal story possibilities for each race. There will be skills, recipes, and traits to discover or earn. There will be all sorts of weapon and armor looks to acquire with different stats, and hundreds of dye colors to unlock. All of these are goals that players can pursue.
Whenever ArenaNet adds some new content after release, it will be available to every single player in the game, rather than locked to a specific level range that doesn't serve max level players. A brand new event or dungeon arrives with the latest patch? You can do it right away with your friends regardless of their level, or the level of the content.
In actuality, the only things that will be missing are a gear grind for better stats, and multi-group instances to farm. The fact that those two things just happen to make up the bulk of the endgame in just about every single MMORPG since EQ days doesn't reflect badly on GW2...it reflects badly on the genre and the developers for stagnating on a singular possibility and doing it to death. The lazy bait-and-switch that leads players to either rush to the endgame with their raiding guild or play to max and quit...that will not be part of GW2.
There's nothing at all wrong with enjoying those two things. Certainly some people absolutely love doing the same raids dozens of times for the chance at that next piece of gear which will allow you to do another raid dozens of times. If that is your idea of fun, more power to you! There are tons of games that offer exactly what you enjoy, and there's no chance of them going away anytime soon.
It's important to recognize a simple fact, however. The fact that some people enjoy doing those things doesn't mean that's ALL THERE IS. GW2 not having those things doesn't mean it has no longevity, or no endgame. Quite the contrary...with the removal of barriers and the focus on social play and community, and the way the world will be much more dynamic and changes will persist, GW2 may end up having longer average played times than just about any game since the early genre. It also doesn't hurt that they won't be charging you every month just for the privilege of logging in.
This genre has so much potential for almost unlimited play and choices. GW2 will be exploring some very different mechanics and systems which should hopefully provide much less of a bait-and-switch...and much more of a smooth continuation of the game play you enjoy when you reach max level. It's a game tailor-made for those who truly enjoy the journey and the potential immersiveness of a virtual world (finally!). ArenaNet is providing tons of horizontal advancement to customize your play style and provide you with options, while removing the vertical advancement that permanently separates the player base at max level by putting up barriers of stats, tiers, and trivialized content. They are focusing on making the moment-to-moment, bread-and-butter game play more fun and addictive and engaging...so that it's just fun to play, no matter how you chose to do so.
Is there a reason you are ignoring collecting traits and skills or do you just not know about this side of GW2? After you hit max level you can go out and collect all your elite, healing, and utility skills and skill up on any weapons you have not used so your character is more versatile. Also you can go out and collect traits, although we do not know how this is going to work since they are changing how you acquired them. Just like capturing elite skills in GW1 extended the play time and gave people objectives to shoot for I believe traits and skills will do the same for GW2.
I personally have put over 600 hours across 6 characters in GW1 so I do not see any reason why I will not be able to do the same with GW2. I will keep myself busy collecting traits and trying out new builds so I can screw with other people in PVP.
People always ask the question of how hardcore players can distinguish themselves from lower level players if there's no difference stat-wise on gear.
It's a simple answer and you'd only need to look as far as the first Guild Wars to find it. In Guild Wars 1, all players have a very easily accessible max-stat armor set for their class/profession. Getting them was an expense of about 7 to 15 platinum. It's like the equivalent of getting 150 to 350g in WoW, it takes very little effort to raise the funds required and could easily be done by most players in a day or two if you really wanted it, and even less if you're a skilled player who understands the game's economy and how to effectively profit from it.
However...
There are prestige armor sets and, these, by most people's opinions (and reasonably so), look much better than the normal maxed armor sets. They have no stat advantage at all and are only distinguishable by the fact that they're "prestige". But they could cost up to one hundred and fifty times as much money. That's like running into a WoW player with upwards of 50,000g to throw at pure aesthetics (I keep using WoW as an example because it's the most widely played and understood triple A MMO to date so more people than any other game would understand the currency equivalency). It stands to reason players will find themselves logging quite a bit of gaming hours to achieve this (unless you're botting, then you'll end up like this guy), but it's an entirely optional decision for the player to grind. They have NO advantage or disadvantage against another players because they did or didn't decide to grind away 70 hours of their lives trolling around the Underworld for some globs of ectoplasm. They're no better or worse off than other players for having played longer or lesser. They don't have to subject themselves to a content type, end-game gear progression raiding, that the vast majority of players who would say they enjoy these MMO's hardly ever participate in.
There's definitely a substantial amount of players who enjoys putting in a lot of effort and achieving a worth reward and Arena Net recognizes this, but their anti-grind philosophy is centered around the idea that the "grinding" should be completely optional and does not give players a competetive edge.
Also, I think the implication of the Guild Wars 1 title system's influence on Guild Wars 2's achievement system goes underappreciated. Players would find themselves doing a LOT more work and "grinding" than getting Obsidian/Prestige armor to gain the title of "God Walking Among Mere Mortals" (Maxing out almost every title in the game). With more resources and a larger, more involved world, Arena Net has the potential to create thouands of hours of gameplay for those who seek an end-game based on rewards and prestige.
Alright, other than the arguments "the whole game is endgame" lets focus on just level 80 content.
There is 1 dungeon every 10 levels starting at level 35, and 8 dungeons total at release.
That means, that at level 80 you will have three dungeons whose story mode (AKA You're supposed to be able to solo it, but you'll have NPCs helping you) STARTS at level 80.
Not only that, but they've stated that the ENTIRE peninsula of Orr is level 80 (which is probably 3-4 entire zones).
PvP gear (earned for level 80) will be earned in "tiers", where the more "Valor" you spend the better looking gear you get.
For example, if you've ever played Castle Wars in Runescape, the decorative armours look better and better as you get higher in the tiers, but cost more tickets (50-150-250-500-1500) per tier.
Many people seem to forget, that for those that DON'T have the best gear and play people who do, it ruins the experience. For example, in WoW these days if you try to get into PvP at level 85, you'll die over and over again because you dont have full Relentless BiS gear, and for many thats disheartening.
I guess my question to you is: Why do you have to be "shackled" to a game?
Your goal would be to get the God Walking Amongst Mere Mortals title, or get that Epic looking set that somebody was wearing when they roflstomped you in 5v5 last week. The deal maker for me is that you get a choice in this game. I could run dungeons for dungeon gear, or PvP, and if i was wearing my tier 5 PvP gear and I wanted to run Zhaitain's Lair in explorable mode with my guild, then i could.
TL:DR: This game is Skyrim Online, in that those goals your looking for you make yourself, and you aren't forced to do a certain thing, to want your BiS or to stick to one type of play, you can do whatever takes your fancy.
Not too sure if the trait system has been completed yet. I do think that the traits will play a major role in the end game goals for character progression.
so this ISN'T an mmorpg...
I guess I won't be playing this hack and slash mmo.
In the other thread you said this wasn't an MMORPG, it was an action MMO with RPG elements. We asked you then what you meant but you didn't reply.
If you ask 100 people what it means to be an MMORPG, you'll get 100 different answers.
We don't even know what you read in this thread that prompted your post.
We really believe that through things like the Personal Story, GW2 is trying to put the RPG back in MMORPG.
Why don't you tell us what your concerns are?
"Gamers will no longer buy the argument that every MMO requires a subscription fee to offset server and bandwidth costs. It's not true you know it, and they know it." -Jeff Strain, co-founder of ArenaNet, 2007
I don't know about others but for me end game will be PVP. I spent years in GW just doing PVP and still have so much PVE content left to finish from Nightfall onwards.
Well I play TF2 "regularly" - I take 30min to an hour a day to let off some steam and have fun with my friends. Ocassionally I spend a weekend afternoon or two loosing myself in the game. I suspect GW2 will fill this niche of mine in the long run and since it offers quite a bit more content I might loose a few more afternoons to it than I do to TF2.
That being said, I'm thankful for it . I don't need a game that will occupy 90% of my otherwise empty and pointless life. I want a game that is fun, well made and relaxing and which I can play with my friends or just wander around and hang out with strangers... and which I can leave feeling satisfied rather than vaguely guilty that I'm not "progressing" (hah!) enough. So far, GW2's "endgame" looks just perfect to me.
As for the word "endgame" the point is that in GW2 the "endgame" begins at level 1. Let me explain. If WoW was made according to this principle you'd be raiding from level 1, without having to go through the whole quest-leveling process first. Conversely, you'd have single player quest lines going on even after you achieve max level - they would be tiered just like raids. The thing is that there is so much more you can do in GW2 endgame besides raiding and PvP ing, and that is because ANet is building the game on the premise that the whole game is "endgame."
Once you reach maximum level your way of playing won't magically transform into something completely different. You'll just keep on doing whatever you enjoyed doing during leveling. It's just you'll be lvl 80 and you'll be advancing in some other ways like collecting titles, traits and (mostly cosmetic) gear.
There is PVP and those dungeons in exploration mode of course. But Im not sure if GW2 will ever offer endgame with a gear progression like in other MMO's. I expect that itll just be about looks and not stats. Like in GW1 I expect that the grind will be there for the collectors of titles and complete armourset looks. Where some ppl gather a complete set of FoW armour, while others cant be bothered because its only a different look and not better stats.
You don't start the dungeons before lvl 35, and they are the really hard content (when you done the story mode which is easier). But besides that you are right.
It will still turn off some players, the type that cheers every time Wow releases a new raid tier but I don't think it is possible to make a game that is great for everyone.
Table top RPGs
If you are claiming to be an MMORPG, please show me a game based on the rules set forth by the genre.
If you're only borrowing some elements but the way you play the game is completely different, why not sell the game under a different genre?
The dice should determine everything. Statistical modifiers should tip the dice in your favor. This is what an RPG is about. Leveing up has been deconstruced to the point is has become a gimmick. It's only giving you the illusion that you are actually developing your character. The reality is; you're just strolling through the feeble content they placed in the game to keep you occupied for a few months.
Don't bring up the semantics behind the definition of every word in RPG. Tabletop RPG's are the ORIGINAL and you used a dice to determine your actions.