Now I know this is a sticky subject with some people that feel the standard hotbar, tab target, combat mechanics is how an MMO should be made, but I can't help but wonder what this games combat would have been like with FPS combat. Not psuedo FPS, but good FPS with real type ballistics physics. Imagine the kind of fights one might have using this type of game play. It worked for such games SW: Battlefront and Jedi Acedemy - why not SW:ToR?
Gone would be the static, stand in one place playing whack-the-mole. Gone would be the static, stand in one place, shooting it out. Because that is how the current games combat mechanics, which to me, are sad, dull, and boring. Am I the only one that feels FPS combat would have made this game a 100% better and a game that would have been challenging and fun?
I truely believe that a hybrid FPS style combat and a total disconnect from the holy trinity would of made this game freaking amazing. I am pretty sure I never saw Luke or Anakin get healed even when they were in the toughest of situations. As immersive as the game seems to be I cant help to wonder how realistic is it to have bounty hunters or storm troopers healing people. In my original assessment of the game it was the main factor in all my negativity because to me a healer/tank/dps trinity makes absolutely no sense in the cannon of the game.
FPS should remain in FPS games. That kind of combat doesn't belong in a themepark MMO. Now, if someone would suggest a 3rd person aiming style of combat, I could get on board with that. But FPS? No way. Would kill the game for me.
SW: Balttlefront had 3rd person aiming as well as 1st, as dod Jedi Acedemy and Mount and Blade:Warband. It isn't all 1st person and you don't have to be in FPS to fight all the time.
@whargh0ul: Where is it more involved than that? I did like TOR, and I felt like I had the freedom to jump around all crazy, but I felt equally effective questing just sitting there gunning/sabering stuff down. I'm not trying to be a jerk here, I am honestly curious... do mobs and stuff gain AoE abilities you need to move away from when soloing or is this purely an endgame thing or what?
Yeah, actually. Once you get further into the game many of the mobs have the same kinds of abilities that the players do.
Some will also AOE, or call in remotes with flamethrowers.
As the game gets more challenging (30+, really), just standing there doesn't really cut it, especially if you want to minimise down time and stim use.
@whargh0ul: Where is it more involved than that? I did like TOR, and I felt like I had the freedom to jump around all crazy, but I felt equally effective questing just sitting there gunning/sabering stuff down. I'm not trying to be a jerk here, I am honestly curious... do mobs and stuff gain AoE abilities you need to move away from when soloing or is this purely an endgame thing or what?
You can do that when you are out questing and levelling. Technically, you don't have to move around or utilize line of sight or any of that stuff. But you cannot do that in this game in PvP, and you cannot do it in higher level instances. I think people will find out very quickly in this game that what works for solo questing and level grinding doesn't work for the harder stuff.
awesome, I like the sound of that. Like I said, I was honestly trying to find out, I refused to play past 20ish so I didn't spoil much of the story for myself, so I have 0 experience in endgame.
Well, if it makes you feel any better, hardly anyone has any end game experience due to the constant character wipes on new builds. But I can promise you that PvP you'd never be able to get away with being static while fighting, and as the instances become more difficult the higher level you go, standing around and firing off specials will get you killed.
The combat in this game isn't revolutionary, by any means. But it definitely feels more active than other tab/target games I've played, with the exception of AoC.
at least have some sort of system besides "tab target". even if it was a Tabula Rasa style mechanic. I just feel "dirty" standing still spamming gun attack buttons.
SW: Balttlefront had 3rd person aiming as well as 1st, as dod Jedi Acedemy and Mount and Blade:Warband. It isn't all 1st person and you don't have to be in FPS to fight all the time.
I never played any of those games. Like I said, I could be sold on a 3rd person game that involves aiming to target. But first person? No matter how much I love this game, I'd refuse to play it with that kind of combat.
A combat system like GW2, Tera, or AoC would have been pretty awesome for this game. But as far as tab-targetting combat goes, this is the best one I've played other than AoC.
Just my experienced opinion here....but if you're standing in one place mashing buttons in SWTOR, you're doing it wrong.
And this behavior is of course probably just a bad habit picked up from other MMOs.
I think it will be a while before people "get it" with SWTOR's combat. They see a hotbar, and can tab to target, and they assume that it's just like the other games they are used to.
In answer to your question.....no, I don't think so. Try Darkfall, and tell me how much fun FPS combat is in an MMORPG.
I played Planetside and it has FPS combat, and it was a blast. Please do not use DF though as an example of a good FPS MMO, because it isn't.
Also, tell me what good running around in SW:ToR is...everything is based on RNG combat. Once something or someone has targeted you, its a roll fo the dice if they hit you - no amount of jumping or running is going to change that. It isn't Asheron's Call and it isn't Planetside.
I used Darkfall as an example due to the fact that lightsabers are melee weapons, and melee combat pretty much sucks in FPS style games.
So...watch a Darkfall melee battle video, and replace the weapons with lightsabers.
Get me now??
As far as ranged combat in SWTOR, range, LOS, cover, and many other things are a factor. The mobs don't magically hit you through a rock once they have noticed you, like we have seen in other MMOs from the past.
The combat is almost a TPS / MMO hybrid, with tab targeting. This is one of the reasons that there is no auto attack in the game. The combat is a lot more involved than standing next to a mob spamming a few specials.
But in a couple months this will be common knowledge.
Not from my experience in game. It is what it is and to say otherwise is just plan wrong. There is no need to do anything other than stand in one place and fight. No amount of movement makes any difference whatsoever.
Darkfall is a bad example and the FPS melee in Darkfall is a joke. BTW the FPS combat in Mount and Blade:Warband works great, and it worked great in games like Jedi Acedemy and SW: Battlefront - so I beg to differ that FPS melee combat just sucks.
I've been testing this game for months, Teala. For the first 20 levels or so you can get away with standing there mashing buttons, but eventually the game expects you to know what you are doing and the kid gloves come off. Especially once the mobs get more effective specials.
I agree that the FPS combat in Darkfall sucks, but that's pretty much what you would get with 10000 kids running around with lightsabers. Battlefront's melee combat consists of mashing two buttons while running around (basically Darkfall), and while Warband and Academy have interesting combat systems, they are not really ideal for mass-market consumption, or a game of this scale.
I can just imagine the bombardment of "carpel tunnel" threads, and crying about ping. They work fine for smaller audiences, on smaller servers....but this is an MMORPG with a large diverse audience.
I dispise twitch style combat in an RPG. I play RPGs to develop my character. The combst skills involved is based on what my character can or can't do, not my personal hand eye coordination, or lack thereof, Internet connection speed or system specs. And what really torques me, is I hate the high fantasy setting. So I am limited on MMO's. Thre are few Sci Fi MMO's as it is. Even though I am a Star Wars fanatic. I would have stopped following SWToR from the get go had it been an action combat game. And I know I'm not alone.
Well, if it makes you feel any better, hardly anyone has any end game experience due to the constant character wipes on new builds. But I can promise you that PvP you'd never be able to get away with being static while fighting, and as the instances become more difficult the higher level you go, standing around and firing off specials will get you killed.
The combat in this game isn't revolutionary, by any means. But it definitely feels more active than other tab/target games I've played, with the exception of AoC.
I don't need revolutionary, but I did want more than standing in place, and though I found I could play the game and not do it, I still like to know there is some point to movement other than personal entertainment. I liked that I could move around in combat and not worry about "losing auto attacks" and stuff, but in my limited experience that was no more or less efffective than just spamming 2 or 3 keys standing still. I did run into a couple dudes who called down stuff in ground targeted AE that I moved out of rather than stood in, kinda wish I'd seen how hard it would have hit now, hehe. I am glad to hear that at higher levels it's totally different in pve.
As to pvp, that was expected and was not a huge concern.
Originally posted by Wharg0ul
Yeah, actually. Once you get further into the game many of the mobs have the same kinds of abilities that the players do.
Some will also AOE, or call in remotes with flamethrowers.
As the game gets more challenging (30+, really), just standing there doesn't really cut it, especially if you want to minimise down time and stim use.
Nice, the last bit is what I like. I understand why a game would be accepting to people moving around less, but I am happy to hear that I can minimize downtime by being engaged in gameplay.
While the flow of combat feels a bit more agile than others, it can still be patterned down to a lot of MMO conventions, especially in the later instances.
I know just healing as a Merc, the group was always centered on the tank or me to manage the AoE efficency, but from there, range still ranged, stuff on the ground still shouldn't be stood in unless i shot it, and rogues did it from behind. The actual fight mechanics are faster, but the flow of combat still moves to a GCD-halfstep.
Now, would FPS controls "fix" that? Meh. I was originally uninterested in the game because of that reason, and while it doesn't feel much more reflex-sensitive than Rift or WoW mechanics, it doesn't really break any molds. You just stand in the same ones at a slightly brisker interval.
Normal FPS mechanics would end up making the signature classes feel odd, since KB/M+FPS+Melee=muddle. It'd make the shots from the 4 gunners feel a bit more impacting, but would be way harder to balance/tune, and couldn't really be offered in conjunction with traditional mechanics without either severe rework of existing systems, or imbalances between the two schemes and resultant playerbase alienation.
Granted, the space combat is the more reflex part, and nothing breaks the drull of 2hrs of non-class questing like some nice 5-10min spurts of Rebel Assault. Core game though, nah. Though LA should just make a new Dark Forces game.
Lets Push Things Forward
I knew I would live to design games at age 7, issue 5 of Nintendo Power.
Support games with subs when you believe in their potential, even in spite of their flaws.
I have to whole heartedly disagree with you. One of the main draws for me playing SW:TOR is the traditional style MMO combat in a Sci-Fi setting. Don't get me wrong, I love a good FPS but I also love a good RPG. However, I rarely like to mingle the two. The reason why I love the traditional MMO combat in TOR is because it is pulled off so well. The animations are flashy, the abilities all feel useful, the controls are responsive, and most important the pacing is pretty much dead on. There is more as to why I like this style of combat but that is basically what it boils down to.
A lot of the positive points I noted above could most definitely be pulled off in an FPS twitch environment. It's just that FPS combat places a lot of emphasis on player response time more so then traditional MMO combat and this in my opinion takes away from the lax nature of an MMORPG like TOR. I like to take my time, calmly fight towards my objectives, and plan my next attack sequence. To make this a proper FPS you would need to crank up the action to keep it interesting, and have threats descending upon you constantly. This would be cool but would be quite taxing after a while.
P.S. I'm not a person who shy's away from FPS gameplay. I absolutely love Battlefield 3, Skyrim, and many others. I just feel it would not compliment TOR very well.
Agree with those that said they wouldn't have any interest in this game if it was a shooter. Leave that crap out of TOR.
Oh I am sorry, Skyrim uses FPS combat, so do many awesome games...FPS combat is not crap - it is just different and more challenging.
It's not exactly fair to call FPS combat more challenging. TOR's combat could become more challenging but the developer's intentionally have to keep it at a certain difficulty to maintain mass appeal. I'm certain it can be made much harder to where timing and countering would be crucial for success, but we would need individual difficulty sliders to have that (or a very niche title).
You'd easily produce one of the worse MMO's ever. Jedi Academy wasn't a very good game. Fun? Yes. Also I know you like M&B, but that seems to be your answer to everything. Make it like M&B. Just because it works for M&B doesn't mean it will work for everything else.
In War - Victory. In Peace - Vigilance. In Death - Sacrifice.
Agree with those that said they wouldn't have any interest in this game if it was a shooter. Leave that crap out of TOR.
Oh I am sorry, Skyrim uses FPS combat, so do many awesome games...FPS combat is not crap - it is just different and more challenging.
It's not exactly fair to call FPS combat more challenging. TOR's combat could become more challenging but the developer's intentionally have to keep it at a certain difficulty to maintain mass appeal. I'm certain it can be made much harder to where timing and countering would be crucial for success, but we would need individual difficulty sliders to have that (or a very niche title).
It actually DOES get challenging. There;s a learning curve. Eventually the game stops playing nice.
Agree with those that said they wouldn't have any interest in this game if it was a shooter. Leave that crap out of TOR.
Oh I am sorry, Skyrim uses FPS combat, so do many awesome games...FPS combat is not crap - it is just different and more challenging.
It's not exactly fair to call FPS combat more challenging. TOR's combat could become more challenging but the developer's intentionally have to keep it at a certain difficulty to maintain mass appeal. I'm certain it can be made much harder to where timing and countering would be crucial for success, but we would need individual difficulty sliders to have that (or a very niche title).
It actually DOES get challenging. There;s a learning curve. Eventually the game stops playing nice.
Think of Act 1 as an "introduction".
I hope you are correct.
It seems most MMO's have turned to catering the lowest demominator by making the game 'facerolling easy', rather than making a game that teaches that group how to become better gamers.
It actually DOES get challenging. There;s a learning curve. Eventually the game stops playing nice.
Think of Act 1 as an "introduction".
Btw, this is off topic, but speaking of Act 1, what exactly is that? I've heard it referenced in regards to the Legacy System, and it's obviously a component of the class story line, I was just wondering when one gets to it. I heard most people get to it by around level 30ish or so. And that being the case, is there an Act II as well? Or is that something that will be added in as they add more content?
Sorry for the hijack. Just a question I've had for a while now.
Agree with those that said they wouldn't have any interest in this game if it was a shooter. Leave that crap out of TOR.
Oh I am sorry, Skyrim uses FPS combat, so do many awesome games...FPS combat is not crap - it is just different and more challenging.
Good for skyrim. Doesn't change the fact that I hate FPS games and refuse to play any mmo that tries to incoporate it in their game. If you want challenge in TOR roll onto a pvp zone or play PVE without companions or side quests. But TOR s combat is fine the way it is.
There's two problems with FPS style combat in MMO's.
1 - technical - its hard to replicate over a network FPS type combat with hundreds of other people in the same game.
2 - playerbase used to current combat. Its an RPG, RPG's whether you are talking about MMO's , SPRPG's, and even card games and old D&D dice RPG's is about strategdy and not only how to build your character but in combat too.
A big draw for MMO's is the fact that almost anyone can pick up the game and play it. You don't need to be twitch fast. You dont need to be contantly running all over the place. Some people like the more slow chess like combat of MMORPG's.
It actually DOES get challenging. There;s a learning curve. Eventually the game stops playing nice.
Think of Act 1 as an "introduction".
Btw, this is off topic, but speaking of Act 1, what exactly is that? I've heard it referenced in regards to the Legacy System, and it's obviously a component of the class story line, I was just wondering when one gets to it. I heard most people get to it by around level 30ish or so. And that being the case, is there an Act II as well? Or is that something that will be added in as they add more content?
Sorry for the hijack. Just a question I've had for a while now.
Act 1 refers to the first act of the class personal story. each classes personal story is broken up into 3 acts
It actually DOES get challenging. There;s a learning curve. Eventually the game stops playing nice.
Think of Act 1 as an "introduction".
Btw, this is off topic, but speaking of Act 1, what exactly is that? I've heard it referenced in regards to the Legacy System, and it's obviously a component of the class story line, I was just wondering when one gets to it. I heard most people get to it by around level 30ish or so. And that being the case, is there an Act II as well? Or is that something that will be added in as they add more content?
Sorry for the hijack. Just a question I've had for a while now.
It involves your class story. You have 3 acts. Act 1 is the longest and I beleive you can select your legacy surname after you get one character past Act 1.
Agree with those that said they wouldn't have any interest in this game if it was a shooter. Leave that crap out of TOR.
Oh I am sorry, Skyrim uses FPS combat, so do many awesome games...FPS combat is not crap - it is just different and more challenging.
Good for skyrim. Doesn't change the fact that I hate FPS games and refuse to play any mmo that tries to incoporate it in their game. If you want challenge in TOR roll onto a pvp zone or play PVE without companions or side quests. But TOR s combat is fine the way it is.
Amen to that sir... the reason i lvled so fast in beta was because of PVP, damm it was fun.
Comments
SW: Balttlefront had 3rd person aiming as well as 1st, as dod Jedi Acedemy and Mount and Blade:Warband. It isn't all 1st person and you don't have to be in FPS to fight all the time.
Yeah, actually. Once you get further into the game many of the mobs have the same kinds of abilities that the players do.
Some will also AOE, or call in remotes with flamethrowers.
As the game gets more challenging (30+, really), just standing there doesn't really cut it, especially if you want to minimise down time and stim use.
Well, if it makes you feel any better, hardly anyone has any end game experience due to the constant character wipes on new builds. But I can promise you that PvP you'd never be able to get away with being static while fighting, and as the instances become more difficult the higher level you go, standing around and firing off specials will get you killed.
The combat in this game isn't revolutionary, by any means. But it definitely feels more active than other tab/target games I've played, with the exception of AoC.
at least have some sort of system besides "tab target". even if it was a Tabula Rasa style mechanic. I just feel "dirty" standing still spamming gun attack buttons.
I never played any of those games. Like I said, I could be sold on a 3rd person game that involves aiming to target. But first person? No matter how much I love this game, I'd refuse to play it with that kind of combat.
A combat system like GW2, Tera, or AoC would have been pretty awesome for this game. But as far as tab-targetting combat goes, this is the best one I've played other than AoC.
I've been testing this game for months, Teala. For the first 20 levels or so you can get away with standing there mashing buttons, but eventually the game expects you to know what you are doing and the kid gloves come off. Especially once the mobs get more effective specials.
I agree that the FPS combat in Darkfall sucks, but that's pretty much what you would get with 10000 kids running around with lightsabers. Battlefront's melee combat consists of mashing two buttons while running around (basically Darkfall), and while Warband and Academy have interesting combat systems, they are not really ideal for mass-market consumption, or a game of this scale.
I can just imagine the bombardment of "carpel tunnel" threads, and crying about ping. They work fine for smaller audiences, on smaller servers....but this is an MMORPG with a large diverse audience.
I don't need revolutionary, but I did want more than standing in place, and though I found I could play the game and not do it, I still like to know there is some point to movement other than personal entertainment. I liked that I could move around in combat and not worry about "losing auto attacks" and stuff, but in my limited experience that was no more or less efffective than just spamming 2 or 3 keys standing still. I did run into a couple dudes who called down stuff in ground targeted AE that I moved out of rather than stood in, kinda wish I'd seen how hard it would have hit now, hehe. I am glad to hear that at higher levels it's totally different in pve.
As to pvp, that was expected and was not a huge concern.
Originally posted by Wharg0ul
Yeah, actually. Once you get further into the game many of the mobs have the same kinds of abilities that the players do.
Some will also AOE, or call in remotes with flamethrowers.
As the game gets more challenging (30+, really), just standing there doesn't really cut it, especially if you want to minimise down time and stim use.
Nice, the last bit is what I like. I understand why a game would be accepting to people moving around less, but I am happy to hear that I can minimize downtime by being engaged in gameplay.
Thanks for the posts, guys!
While the flow of combat feels a bit more agile than others, it can still be patterned down to a lot of MMO conventions, especially in the later instances.
I know just healing as a Merc, the group was always centered on the tank or me to manage the AoE efficency, but from there, range still ranged, stuff on the ground still shouldn't be stood in unless i shot it, and rogues did it from behind. The actual fight mechanics are faster, but the flow of combat still moves to a GCD-halfstep.
Now, would FPS controls "fix" that? Meh. I was originally uninterested in the game because of that reason, and while it doesn't feel much more reflex-sensitive than Rift or WoW mechanics, it doesn't really break any molds. You just stand in the same ones at a slightly brisker interval.
Normal FPS mechanics would end up making the signature classes feel odd, since KB/M+FPS+Melee=muddle. It'd make the shots from the 4 gunners feel a bit more impacting, but would be way harder to balance/tune, and couldn't really be offered in conjunction with traditional mechanics without either severe rework of existing systems, or imbalances between the two schemes and resultant playerbase alienation.
Granted, the space combat is the more reflex part, and nothing breaks the drull of 2hrs of non-class questing like some nice 5-10min spurts of Rebel Assault. Core game though, nah. Though LA should just make a new Dark Forces game.
Lets Push Things Forward
I knew I would live to design games at age 7, issue 5 of Nintendo Power.
Support games with subs when you believe in their potential, even in spite of their flaws.
Currently Playing: World of Warcraft
I have to whole heartedly disagree with you. One of the main draws for me playing SW:TOR is the traditional style MMO combat in a Sci-Fi setting. Don't get me wrong, I love a good FPS but I also love a good RPG. However, I rarely like to mingle the two. The reason why I love the traditional MMO combat in TOR is because it is pulled off so well. The animations are flashy, the abilities all feel useful, the controls are responsive, and most important the pacing is pretty much dead on. There is more as to why I like this style of combat but that is basically what it boils down to.
A lot of the positive points I noted above could most definitely be pulled off in an FPS twitch environment. It's just that FPS combat places a lot of emphasis on player response time more so then traditional MMO combat and this in my opinion takes away from the lax nature of an MMORPG like TOR. I like to take my time, calmly fight towards my objectives, and plan my next attack sequence. To make this a proper FPS you would need to crank up the action to keep it interesting, and have threats descending upon you constantly. This would be cool but would be quite taxing after a while.
P.S. I'm not a person who shy's away from FPS gameplay. I absolutely love Battlefield 3, Skyrim, and many others. I just feel it would not compliment TOR very well.
Oh I am sorry, Skyrim uses FPS combat, so do many awesome games...FPS combat is not crap - it is just different and more challenging.
to be quite honest I am not a big fan of the combat style in Skyrim, but that is neither here nor there.
It's not exactly fair to call FPS combat more challenging. TOR's combat could become more challenging but the developer's intentionally have to keep it at a certain difficulty to maintain mass appeal. I'm certain it can be made much harder to where timing and countering would be crucial for success, but we would need individual difficulty sliders to have that (or a very niche title).
Nor am I. Not the game I would use as an example of a proper action-oriented FPS game. Combat in Skyrim kinda sucks. Great game, not-so-great combat.
You'd easily produce one of the worse MMO's ever. Jedi Academy wasn't a very good game. Fun? Yes. Also I know you like M&B, but that seems to be your answer to everything. Make it like M&B. Just because it works for M&B doesn't mean it will work for everything else.
In War - Victory.
In Peace - Vigilance.
In Death - Sacrifice.
It actually DOES get challenging. There;s a learning curve. Eventually the game stops playing nice.
Think of Act 1 as an "introduction".
Imo, I would have liked to see something more akin to Skyrim for combat -- simply because it would be slightly more refreshing combat.
I actually enjoyed the basic ground combat in STO, simply because it was not WoW hot bars.
It would not need to be FPS, but simply less WoW, imo.
I hope you are correct.
It seems most MMO's have turned to catering the lowest demominator by making the game 'facerolling easy', rather than making a game that teaches that group how to become better gamers.
In short, MMOs = Scoreless Soccer/football w/ Participation Trophies - imo.
Btw, this is off topic, but speaking of Act 1, what exactly is that? I've heard it referenced in regards to the Legacy System, and it's obviously a component of the class story line, I was just wondering when one gets to it. I heard most people get to it by around level 30ish or so. And that being the case, is there an Act II as well? Or is that something that will be added in as they add more content?
Sorry for the hijack. Just a question I've had for a while now.
Oh I am sorry, Skyrim uses FPS combat, so do many awesome games...FPS combat is not crap - it is just different and more challenging.
Good for skyrim. Doesn't change the fact that I hate FPS games and refuse to play any mmo that tries to incoporate it in their game. If you want challenge in TOR roll onto a pvp zone or play PVE without companions or side quests. But TOR s combat is fine the way it is.Currently Playing: World of Warcraft
There's two problems with FPS style combat in MMO's.
1 - technical - its hard to replicate over a network FPS type combat with hundreds of other people in the same game.
2 - playerbase used to current combat. Its an RPG, RPG's whether you are talking about MMO's , SPRPG's, and even card games and old D&D dice RPG's is about strategdy and not only how to build your character but in combat too.
A big draw for MMO's is the fact that almost anyone can pick up the game and play it. You don't need to be twitch fast. You dont need to be contantly running all over the place. Some people like the more slow chess like combat of MMORPG's.
Act 1 refers to the first act of the class personal story. each classes personal story is broken up into 3 acts
It involves your class story. You have 3 acts. Act 1 is the longest and I beleive you can select your legacy surname after you get one character past Act 1.
Amen to that sir... the reason i lvled so fast in beta was because of PVP, damm it was fun.