It sounds to me like you are too emotionally invested in the game to form a rational objective opinion about what they do.
Hypothetically, what WOULD it take for you to stop supporting them?
If you would read and answer the points in post 125. You can see that Ankur refuses to address them.
Sure, but you need to accept that I'm not a hater just because we disagree. I want to play this game as a sub game (which I can't)
1. They have previously had a cash shop in GW2 that is not P2W.
past results aren't indicative of future performance. GW2 was built from the ground up as an item shop game. It's quoted in what's his toes' blog post. I can find if if I need to. GW1 was built as B2P before the era of cash shops. The cash shop in GW1 was a bolt-on. They didn't have the back end mechanics to tweak drops and difficulty on the fly like they do now. Please note - I'm not saying they will, however their only means of profit after the initial box would be to 'encourage' cash shop purchases.
2. They made many claims about their game, and then have backed it up by actually showing what they claimed to be doing
To counterpoint, there needs to be a point. These are general statements. We are debating the cash shop here. Do you have any GW2 references you'd like to point out as a point of debate?
3. In the leaked information on the cash shop, there is nothing that is p2w.
This depends on your definition of P2W. If the game is competitive then "win" means one thing, but if the way to measure yourself in a game is based on how you look to other players then win means something else entirely. "Winning" in these terms is a personal definition therefore Pay to Win is entirely subjective. P2W isn't a factor to me anyways. I'd dominate. I want to play a game where everyone playes by the same rules and the resulting social statification (or e-peen) is defined by the game rules rather than disposable income.
SOME of the people who want to close their eyes and not consider that Anet's goal is to maximize profit sound like Apple fans. The game doesn't have a F2P item shop because it's better for you as a gamer or consumer - they're out to make as much money as possible without pissing you off. Here's some Kool-Aide
I should add, though it is implied, that they will keep going all the way to P2W if you let them. If they can spin it so the trusting minds accept it, they'll go there. This is the reason to put up a stink now - while it's in beta - before everything is set as a precedent.
I would have no problem with a cash shop game that had a sub option if they would keep the drops and mechanics seperate between sub players and free players. It would become immediately apparent upon comparison however, how they were gimping gameplay to drive people to the shop and therefore won't ever happen.
It would be cool if they had a subscription server and a CS server option. How many of you would choose the subscription server? I think I would just for the sake of simplicity. I wonder which server would win on wvwvw?
I would play on the subscription server and I have talked about this in another thread, but I would only want to play other subscription servers due to the RvRvR advantages you can get with items that you can purchase with gold which you can purchase with real life money.
I think I would like to play against the CS servers too...look at all the energy the CS has created...now imagine that on a battlefield. We would have some spectacular wars.
The thing about cash shops is not about the individual player. He says "I don't need anything in there, it doesn't bother me, I don't need to spend a dime."
Well, OK, fine, But it's not about that one player. It's about what the community as a whole is doing.
How Cash shops ruin games is the Meta-Game.
Once people stop having to go out and farm stuff...This is the player base as a whole, not "you" the individual.
So now you have large amounts of people taken out of loops in large numbers. People stop farming, people stop doing PVP, people stop crafting, People stop grouping Etc etc.
we don't know to what extent these kind of gameplay mechanics arenanet is cool with doing outside of attrition mechanics..
Seriously, do you even know THAT much? The people acting like the sky is falling aren't even privy to the product, and especially not the finished product. Whatever use store items have does not counteract the gameplay as some people are pretending, it only makes things convenient for people who don't want to do things only one way. I don't think any of the naysayers have proof of the game having "inconvenient" parts simply to justify a cash shop.
Another poll about this is useless. MMORPG is full of people who like to take a piss on anything, good or bad, because negative opinions get more attention. But people who are concerned about the cash shop to the point they won't play the game are still a very small minority.
SOME of the people who want to close their eyes and not consider that Anet's goal is to maximize profit sound like Apple fans. The game doesn't have a F2P item shop because it's better for you as a gamer or consumer - they're out to make as much money as possible without pissing you off. Here's some Kool-Aide
I should add, though it is implied, that they will keep going all the way to P2W if you let them. If they can spin it so the trusting minds accept it, they'll go there. This is the reason to put up a stink now - while it's in beta - before everything is set as a precedent.
I would have no problem with a cash shop game that had a sub option if they would keep the drops and mechanics seperate between sub players and free players. It would become immediately apparent upon comparison however, how they were gimping gameplay to drive people to the shop and therefore won't ever happen.
It would be cool if they had a subscription server and a CS server option. How many of you would choose the subscription server? I think I would just for the sake of simplicity. I wonder which server would win on wvwvw?
I would play on the subscription server and I have talked about this in another thread, but I would only want to play other subscription servers due to the RvRvR advantages you can get with items that you can purchase with gold which you can purchase with real life money.
I think I would like to play against the CS servers too...look at all the energy the CS has created...now imagine that on a battlefield. We would have some spectacular wars.
I would love a sub server, I'd be willing to go against the CS server in RvRvR
Originally posted by evicton Originally posted by garretth
Originally posted by gainesvilleg
Originally posted by garretth
Originally posted by Cyberdeck7
Originally posted by Cyberdeck7
SOME of the people who want to close their eyes and not consider that Anet's goal is to maximize profit sound like Apple fans. The game doesn't have a F2P item shop because it's better for you as a gamer or consumer - they're out to make as much money as possible without pissing you off. Here's some Kool-Aide I should add, though it is implied, that they will keep going all the way to P2W if you let them. If they can spin it so the trusting minds accept it, they'll go there. This is the reason to put up a stink now - while it's in beta - before everything is set as a precedent. I would have no problem with a cash shop game that had a sub option if they would keep the drops and mechanics seperate between sub players and free players. It would become immediately apparent upon comparison however, how they were gimping gameplay to drive people to the shop and therefore won't ever happen. It would be cool if they had a subscription server and a CS server option. How many of you would choose the subscription server? I think I would just for the sake of simplicity. I wonder which server would win on wvwvw? I would play on the subscription server and I have talked about this in another thread, but I would only want to play other subscription servers due to the RvRvR advantages you can get with items that you can purchase with gold which you can purchase with real life money. I think I would like to play against the CS servers too...look at all the energy the CS has created...now imagine that on a battlefield. We would have some spectacular wars. I would love a sub server, I'd be willing to go against the CS server in RvRvR
we don't know to what extent these kind of gameplay mechanics arenanet is cool with doing outside of attrition mechanics..
Seriously, do you even know THAT much? The people acting like the sky is falling aren't even privy to the product, and especially not the finished product. Whatever use store items have does not counteract the gameplay as some people are pretending, it only makes things convenient for people who don't want to do things only one way. I don't think any of the naysayers have proof of the game having "inconvenient" parts simply to justify a cash shop.
Another poll about this is useless. MMORPG is full of people who like to take a piss on anything, good or bad, because negative opinions get more attention. But people who are concerned about the cash shop to the point they won't play the game are still a very small minority.
Actually is pretty clear, when we say attricion mechanics were refering to the dev post on why they added a repair fee. Which was a shift from when they had previously said 'dying was its own punishment'. Now we have the repair kit, which saves you the hassle going back to town to repair. Under their previous philosphy there was no "hassle' to begin with.
Its really such a small thing alot of people wouldn't really notice, but it shows there willing to add in mechanics go into great detail why these mechanics are so important to the game. Then sell an item that takes the inconvenience out of the mechanic. If they really felt it was so important to add it into the game why sell someone that makes it so you can play without it.
1. They have previously had a cash shop in GW2 that is not P2W.
past results aren't indicative of future performance. GW2 was built from the ground up as an item shop game. It's quoted in what's his toes' blog post. I can find if if I need to. GW1 was built as B2P before the era of cash shops. The cash shop in GW1 was a bolt-on. They didn't have the back end mechanics to tweak drops and difficulty on the fly like they do now. Please note - I'm not saying they will, however their only means of profit after the initial box would be to 'encourage' cash shop purchases.
Response- Past results ARE the best predictor of future performance. You can never ultimately know, but the past is the best way to judge the future.
Also, whether or not it was added after the fact in GW1 is beside the point. It is still a cash shop and they could have sold OP items, but they didn't. That is refreshing to know, isn't it?
2. They made many claims about their game, and then have backed it up by actually showing what they claimed to be doing
To counterpoint, there needs to be a point. These are general statements. We are debating the cash shop here. Do you have any GW2 references you'd like to point out as a point of debate?
Response- The point is about whether or not ANET can be trusted. Nay-sayers claim that ANET is not going to live up to it's promise of a cash shop giving an edge, and that we should trust what they say. The reality is, everything up to this point ANET has delivered on what they had said before hand. DE's. RP'ing. Questing. They said it, and they did it. They have also now said what the cash shop will and wont be, and now people say that they are lying and wont live up. So my point is that they have a track record of living up to what they say. And their intent on the cash shop has been made abundantly clear that it will not be p2w.
3. In the leaked information on the cash shop, there is nothing that is p2w.
This depends on your definition of P2W. If the game is competitive then "win" means one thing, but if the way to measure yourself in a game is based on how you look to other players then win means something else entirely. "Winning" in these terms is a personal definition therefore Pay to Win is entirely subjective. P2W isn't a factor to me anyways. I'd dominate. I want to play a game where everyone playes by the same rules and the resulting social statification (or e-peen) is defined by the game rules rather than disposable income.
Response- I've heard this argument a bunch. It revolves around changing the definition of p2w that has been out their forever. First off, if you have never played a p2w, I suggest you try some so you know what we are talking about. Stat and dmg advantages that make you unable to compete unless you pay money. According to any standard definition of p2w, GW2 doesnt even come close. That would be like calling EVE P2W.
But even if we do take your definition of having disposable income affecting the playfield, that STILL doesn't group GW2 into your p2w definition. Everyone is still playing by the same rules and with equal gear.
Originally posted by evicton Originally posted by Eir_S
Originally posted by evicton
we don't know to what extent these kind of gameplay mechanics arenanet is cool with doing outside of attrition mechanics..
Seriously, do you even know THAT much? The people acting like the sky is falling aren't even privy to the product, and especially not the finished product. Whatever use store items have does not counteract the gameplay as some people are pretending, it only makes things convenient for people who don't want to do things only one way. I don't think any of the naysayers have proof of the game having "inconvenient" parts simply to justify a cash shop. Another poll about this is useless. MMORPG is full of people who like to take a piss on anything, good or bad, because negative opinions get more attention. But people who are concerned about the cash shop to the point they won't play the game are still a very small minority. Actually is pretty clear, when we say attricion mechanics were refering to the dev post on why they added a repair fee. Which was a shift from when they had previously said 'dying was its own punishment'. Now we have the repair kit, which saves you the hassle going back to town to repair. Under their previous philosphy there was no "hassle' to begin with. Its really such a small thing alot of people wouldn't really notice, but it shows there willing to add in mechanics go into great detail why these mechanics are so important to the game. Then sell an item that takes the inconvenience out of the mechanic. If they really felt it was so important to add it into the game why sell someone that makes it so you can play without it.
They are designed so that as time wears on, you really feel the pressure of it.
we don't know to what extent these kind of gameplay mechanics arenanet is cool with doing outside of attrition mechanics..
Seriously, do you even know THAT much? The people acting like the sky is falling aren't even privy to the product, and especially not the finished product. Whatever use store items have does not counteract the gameplay as some people are pretending, it only makes things convenient for people who don't want to do things only one way. I don't think any of the naysayers have proof of the game having "inconvenient" parts simply to justify a cash shop.
Another poll about this is useless. MMORPG is full of people who like to take a piss on anything, good or bad, because negative opinions get more attention. But people who are concerned about the cash shop to the point they won't play the game are still a very small minority.
Actually is pretty clear, when we say attricion mechanics were refering to the dev post on why they added a repair fee. Which was a shift from when they had previously said 'dying was its own punishment'. Now we have the repair kit, which saves you the hassle going back to town to repair. Under their previous philosphy there was no "hassle' to begin with.
Its really such a small thing alot of people wouldn't really notice, but it shows there willing to add in mechanics go into great detail why these mechanics are so important to the game. Then sell an item that takes the inconvenience out of the mechanic. If they really felt it was so important to add it into the game why sell someone that makes it so you can play without it.
They are designed so that as time wears on, you really feel the pressure of it.
So subtle but it's there and it builds.
Taking just this mechanic, such a small thing and its in other mmos so its familiar. You have 2 players.
Player A: Player A thinks paying cash to repair his gear is absurd, no matter how nice it would be to do it out of town. So he has two options a only repair in town or b use in game means to obtain the repair kits, now say there craftable by one profession he may feel inclined to pick that profession or he may spend x mount of time getting money so he can purchase them.
Player B: Thinks being able to buy repair kits is awesome finally he will never have to go to town to repair. He makes a choice that he will never carry less then 10 of these. So he goes to the cash shop and buys 10, now he doesn't want his inventory to be limited by his new convenience either so he may grab a bag while he's there too. Now whenever he uses a repair kit he feels he buys another, since gems are bought in packs of 400 he sometimes has extra, with those extra he might buy something else or maybe sells those gems to player a for more gold, which he already has quite a bit of since he never pays gold to repair anyway.
When they implemented this mechanic do you think they had anything else in mind then to encourage player B types while also not totally offending player a.
People love to overreact before there's even anything to react to. Nothing has changed for me, I still plan on playing.
Ditto.
There's some wonky stuff in that cash shop leak. But if people want to spend money on XP boosts and all whatever. I dont even plan on buying anything from the shop. I dont need an xp boost. No matter how little or how much I play GW2 I want to actually play it. I want to experience the zones and the content and truely earn what a I get, whether it be gear, or xp. Most importantly I want fun out of it.
As long as Im not seriously hampered in regards to those things by just playing, I'll just happily play. When you think about it, people with XP boosts are missing out on loot. They're moving from one zone to the next faster. Meanwhile it may take me longer to get there, and in the meantime Im interacting more, and killing more mobs than they are for the same benefit but those mobs drop things.
Which I guess means not only will they need to pay for XP boosts, but also mystery item bags and such just to compensate for the missed loot. Hahaha.....yea thats okay. I'll just play for that stuff thanks.
For me its not the items themselves that make the issue. Its the design philosophy behind a cash shop game. In a p2p game design choices are made ultimately for the better of the game. In a cash shop game alot of changes tend to be driven by oh if we add that we can sell this to make up for it. Attricion mechanics.
In a p2p game the worse you can accuse them of is adding mechanics to keep you playing, but if your enjoying the game as it is how is that a bad thing.
In a cash shop game they introduce game mechanics which can add nothing into the game but an inconvenience then talk about game mechanics and why this new change is important to them as a company. Then a few weeks later they introduce an item into the cash shop that skips said inconvenience. And now you understand why it was so important to them.
Now while we don't know to what extent these kind of gameplay mechanics arenanet is cool with doing outside of attrition mechanics..At this point I'm waiting for a 'trait respec kit' which would explain why we they decided we have to go back to town to respec.
Heres the thing about the green part though: P2P games HAVE designs that are NOT for the good of the game.
Such as a slightly time consuming nature, and something that is addictive (long lvling time, repeating stuff over and over for a carrot that keeps movin further away, the skinner box design). Its just that people are kind of conditioned to accept these things by now.
For the yellow part we have their track record (GW1 cash shop didnt turn horribad yet), what we have seen about the game mechanics that doesnt really suggest that lvl is a big deal (side-kicking, downlvling to fit the zone), and what they say: that the leveling curve is pretty much flat compared to other MMOs.
All which implies that it wont be a P2W grindtastic game. Of course one could argue that they are just lying and that all the footage from press is false somehow(?), but then again there wouldnt be much ground for a discussion, would there?
In the end, if you cant believe it, then dont buy it... just wait for a while or research it a bit more. Lets just try to stay calm and not make up too many doom and gloom scenarios, kk?
People love to overreact before there's even anything to react to. Nothing has changed for me, I still plan on playing.
Ditto.
There's some wonky stuff in that cash shop leak. But if people want to spend money on XP boosts and all whatever. I dont even plan on buying anything from the shop. I dont need an xp boost. No matter how little or how much I play GW2 I want to actually play it. I want to experience the zones and the content and truely earn what a I get, whether it be gear, or xp. Most importantly I want fun out of it.
As long as Im not seriously hampered in regards to those things by just playing, I'll just happily play. When you think about it, people with XP boosts are missing out on loot. They're moving from one zone to the next faster. Meanwhile it may take me longer to get there, and in the meantime Im interacting more, and killing more mobs than they are for the same benefit but those mobs drop things.
Which I guess means not only will they need to pay for XP boosts, but also mystery item bags and such just to compensate for the missed loot. Hahaha.....yea thats okay. I'll just play for that stuff thanks.
For me its not the items themselves that make the issue. Its the design philosophy behind a cash shop game. In a p2p game design choices are made ultimately for the better of the game. In a cash shop game alot of changes tend to be driven by oh if we add that we can sell this to make up for it. Attricion mechanics.
In a p2p game the worse you can accuse them of is adding mechanics to keep you playing, but if your enjoying the game as it is how is that a bad thing.
In a cash shop game they introduce game mechanics which can add nothing into the game but an inconvenience then talk about game mechanics and why this new change is important to them as a company. Then a few weeks later they introduce an item into the cash shop that skips said inconvenience. And now you understand why it was so important to them.
Now while we don't know to what extent these kind of gameplay mechanics arenanet is cool with doing outside of attrition mechanics..At this point I'm waiting for a 'trait respec kit' which would explain why we they decided we have to go back to town to respec.
Heres the thing about the green part though: P2P games HAVE designs that are NOT for the good of the game.
Such as a slightly time consuming nature, and something that is addictive (long lvling time, repeating stuff over and over for a carrot that keeps movin further away, the skinner box design). Its just that people are kind of conditioned to accept these things by now.
For the yellow part we have their track record (GW1 cash shop didnt turn horribad yet), what we have seen about the game mechanics that doesnt really suggest that lvl is a big deal (side-kicking, downlvling to fit the zone), and what they say: that the leveling curve is pretty much flat compared to other MMOs.
All which implies that it wont be a P2W grindtastic game. Of course one could argue that they are just lying and that all the footage from press is false somehow(?), but then again there wouldnt be much ground for a discussion, would there?
In the end, if you cant believe it, then dont buy it... just wait for a while or research it a bit more. Lets just try to stay calm and not make up too many doom and gloom scenarios, kk?
Again when you look at the Guild Wars 1 cash shop as opposed to the one in GW2 there is a huge difference in design. This arenanet themselves said gw cash shop was tacked on while gw 2 cash shop was been designed directly into the game. So thinking your going to get the same kind of experience from both of them doesn't seem to be true.
Look at my post above yours and that scenario thats not something you'd find in the original game. Something so small as a 'repair kit' as an effect on everyone.
Even if we add another player
Player C- Only repairs in towns and says blah to repair kits.
Now Mike has already said there will be gold sinks in the game with just this design choice a small thing as repair kit. When faced with another gold sink Player B is gonna have no issues cause he never used gold to repair and sold gems to player A. Players A/C are going to be doing something do to earn them more gold.
I think the cash shop is great. People that want to pay for things will generate revenue to keep the title alive and healthy. People that don't want to pay for things will still be able to enjoy the full game while only paying their box purchase. The people that are offended and refuse to play won't be spamming in global chat on all the things that they complain about.
It's almost the perfect system, they are just missing one component. They should have an "instant win potion" that costs about $5. When the player uses the IWP, their session slows to "bullet time" and their toon creates a fantastic display of carnage, killing everything in the immediate area and then "You Win!" is displayed up on the screen. The game rolls through the final credits and then logs the person out. Everybody else just sees the person log out, and is not affected by the potion in any way.
I think the cash shop is great. People that want to pay for things will generate revenue to keep the title alive and healthy. People that don't want to pay for things will still be able to enjoy the full game while only paying their box purchase. The people that are offended and refuse to play won't be spamming in global chat on all the things that they complain about.
It's almost the perfect system, they are just missing one component. They should have an "instant win potion" that costs about $5. When the player uses the IWP, their session slows to "bullet time" and their toon creates a fantastic display of carnage, killing everything in the immediate area and then "You Win!" is displayed up on the screen. The game rolls through the final credits and then logs the person out. Everybody else just sees the person log out, and is not affected by the potion in any way.
Yes and his account is deleted after using the potion, I agree
People love to overreact before there's even anything to react to. Nothing has changed for me, I still plan on playing.
Ditto.
There's some wonky stuff in that cash shop leak. But if people want to spend money on XP boosts and all whatever. I dont even plan on buying anything from the shop. I dont need an xp boost. No matter how little or how much I play GW2 I want to actually play it. I want to experience the zones and the content and truely earn what a I get, whether it be gear, or xp. Most importantly I want fun out of it.
As long as Im not seriously hampered in regards to those things by just playing, I'll just happily play. When you think about it, people with XP boosts are missing out on loot. They're moving from one zone to the next faster. Meanwhile it may take me longer to get there, and in the meantime Im interacting more, and killing more mobs than they are for the same benefit but those mobs drop things.
Which I guess means not only will they need to pay for XP boosts, but also mystery item bags and such just to compensate for the missed loot. Hahaha.....yea thats okay. I'll just play for that stuff thanks.
For me its not the items themselves that make the issue. Its the design philosophy behind a cash shop game. In a p2p game design choices are made ultimately for the better of the game. In a cash shop game alot of changes tend to be driven by oh if we add that we can sell this to make up for it. Attricion mechanics.
In a p2p game the worse you can accuse them of is adding mechanics to keep you playing, but if your enjoying the game as it is how is that a bad thing.
In a cash shop game they introduce game mechanics which can add nothing into the game but an inconvenience then talk about game mechanics and why this new change is important to them as a company. Then a few weeks later they introduce an item into the cash shop that skips said inconvenience. And now you understand why it was so important to them.
Now while we don't know to what extent these kind of gameplay mechanics arenanet is cool with doing outside of attrition mechanics..At this point I'm waiting for a 'trait respec kit' which would explain why we they decided we have to go back to town to respec.
Heres the thing about the green part though: P2P games HAVE designs that are NOT for the good of the game.
Such as a slightly time consuming nature, and something that is addictive (long lvling time, repeating stuff over and over for a carrot that keeps movin further away, the skinner box design). Its just that people are kind of conditioned to accept these things by now.
For the yellow part we have their track record (GW1 cash shop didnt turn horribad yet), what we have seen about the game mechanics that doesnt really suggest that lvl is a big deal (side-kicking, downlvling to fit the zone), and what they say: that the leveling curve is pretty much flat compared to other MMOs.
All which implies that it wont be a P2W grindtastic game. Of course one could argue that they are just lying and that all the footage from press is false somehow(?), but then again there wouldnt be much ground for a discussion, would there?
In the end, if you cant believe it, then dont buy it... just wait for a while or research it a bit more. Lets just try to stay calm and not make up too many doom and gloom scenarios, kk?
Responding to the highlight in green, I'll back you up and also say that no, in P2P design choices are not made for the benefit of the game. But rather for craming as many time sinks as humanly possible over and over again into the game. There are loads of them. The entire game is focused around them. Just thinking about WoW and Im reminded of time sink hell. The goal is to keep you doing mundane things for as long as possible to keep you playing as long as possible.
Grinding, crafting useless items for days to get one good thing, even griffin points. No you dont teleport, you have to wait ten minutes for a long flight. Endless dungeon raids, where I once ran one instance over 50 times to get one sword. Almost every single mechanic in that game is very time consuming and its meant to be that way . Absolutely everything is designed to take as long as possible. There are many mmos that do just this so I dont mean to pick on WoW.
But when a game is designed around P2P, its designed to keep you doing some side activity for as LONG as humanly possible adding up to possibly hundreds of hours you spent doing something when you weren't really questing or playing the game directly. Time sinks. Meant to keep you playing so they can get that next monthly fee.
For me its not the items themselves that make the issue. Its the design philosophy behind a cash shop game. In a p2p game design choices are made ultimately for the better of the game. In a cash shop game alot of changes tend to be driven by oh if we add that we can sell this to make up for it. Attricion mechanics.
In a p2p game the worse you can accuse them of is adding mechanics to keep you playing, but if your enjoying the game as it is how is that a bad thing.
In a cash shop game they introduce game mechanics which can add nothing into the game but an inconvenience then talk about game mechanics and why this new change is important to them as a company. Then a few weeks later they introduce an item into the cash shop that skips said inconvenience. And now you understand why it was so important to them.
Now while we don't know to what extent these kind of gameplay mechanics arenanet is cool with doing outside of attrition mechanics..At this point I'm waiting for a 'trait respec kit' which would explain why we they decided we have to go back to town to respec.
Heres the thing about the green part though: P2P games HAVE designs that are NOT for the good of the game.
Such as a slightly time consuming nature, and something that is addictive (long lvling time, repeating stuff over and over for a carrot that keeps movin further away, the skinner box design). Its just that people are kind of conditioned to accept these things by now.
For the yellow part we have their track record (GW1 cash shop didnt turn horribad yet), what we have seen about the game mechanics that doesnt really suggest that lvl is a big deal (side-kicking, downlvling to fit the zone), and what they say: that the leveling curve is pretty much flat compared to other MMOs.
All which implies that it wont be a P2W grindtastic game. Of course one could argue that they are just lying and that all the footage from press is false somehow(?), but then again there wouldnt be much ground for a discussion, would there?
In the end, if you cant believe it, then dont buy it... just wait for a while or research it a bit more. Lets just try to stay calm and not make up too many doom and gloom scenarios, kk?
Again when you look at the Guild Wars 1 cash shop as opposed to the one in GW2 there is a huge difference in design. This arenanet themselves said gw cash shop was tacked on while gw 2 cash shop was been designed directly into the game. So thinking your going to get the same kind of experience from both of them doesn't seem to be true.
Look at my post above yours and that scenario thats not something you'd find in the original game. Something so small as a 'repair kit' as an effect on everyone.
Even if we add another player
Player C- Only repairs in towns and says blah to repair kits.
Now Mike has already said there will be gold sinks in the game with just this design choice a small thing as repair kit. When faced with another gold sink Player B is gonna have no issues cause he never used gold to repair and sold gems to player A. Players A/C are going to be doing something do to earn them more gold.
You never needed the cash shop in GW1 and you DIDN'T have to grind hard if you chose not to use it. They seem to say the same about GW2. If you believe them or not is something everyone will have to decide. And of course theres a difference in design, its 2 different games with different mechanics.
I dont really think the repair issue will be as severe as you think. You realize that everyone can bring up a downed player, and that you dont suffer item damage at all unless you're downed AND defeated. Furthermore, at least 4 of the professions can have an in-combat res as an utility/elite skill, heck the warrior has 2 of them.
And it seems you need to be downed AND defeated 7 times before even one piece of equipment is broken. So the repair issue doesnt seem like a big deal to me.
To me most stuff in the shop seems to be time savers in the end. How horrible is that really? If someone starts playing any random themepark after launch he would be at a similar "disadvantage" as he would be in this game to people heavy on the cash shop: others would be higher level, and have more gold and equipment. Is that an outragous thing in a themepark?
At most game release loads of people complains that the game is unrealistic,well beeing able to buy gear and stuff ingame is just as in RL, you got cash and you are able to buy benefits.Games are getting closer to realistic all the time.
For me its not the items themselves that make the issue. Its the design philosophy behind a cash shop game. In a p2p game design choices are made ultimately for the better of the game. In a cash shop game alot of changes tend to be driven by oh if we add that we can sell this to make up for it. Attricion mechanics.
In a p2p game the worse you can accuse them of is adding mechanics to keep you playing, but if your enjoying the game as it is how is that a bad thing.
In a cash shop game they introduce game mechanics which can add nothing into the game but an inconvenience then talk about game mechanics and why this new change is important to them as a company. Then a few weeks later they introduce an item into the cash shop that skips said inconvenience. And now you understand why it was so important to them.
Now while we don't know to what extent these kind of gameplay mechanics arenanet is cool with doing outside of attrition mechanics..At this point I'm waiting for a 'trait respec kit' which would explain why we they decided we have to go back to town to respec.
Heres the thing about the green part though: P2P games HAVE designs that are NOT for the good of the game.
Such as a slightly time consuming nature, and something that is addictive (long lvling time, repeating stuff over and over for a carrot that keeps movin further away, the skinner box design). Its just that people are kind of conditioned to accept these things by now.
For the yellow part we have their track record (GW1 cash shop didnt turn horribad yet), what we have seen about the game mechanics that doesnt really suggest that lvl is a big deal (side-kicking, downlvling to fit the zone), and what they say: that the leveling curve is pretty much flat compared to other MMOs.
All which implies that it wont be a P2W grindtastic game. Of course one could argue that they are just lying and that all the footage from press is false somehow(?), but then again there wouldnt be much ground for a discussion, would there?
In the end, if you cant believe it, then dont buy it... just wait for a while or research it a bit more. Lets just try to stay calm and not make up too many doom and gloom scenarios, kk?
Again when you look at the Guild Wars 1 cash shop as opposed to the one in GW2 there is a huge difference in design. This arenanet themselves said gw cash shop was tacked on while gw 2 cash shop was been designed directly into the game. So thinking your going to get the same kind of experience from both of them doesn't seem to be true.
Look at my post above yours and that scenario thats not something you'd find in the original game. Something so small as a 'repair kit' as an effect on everyone.
Even if we add another player
Player C- Only repairs in towns and says blah to repair kits.
Now Mike has already said there will be gold sinks in the game with just this design choice a small thing as repair kit. When faced with another gold sink Player B is gonna have no issues cause he never used gold to repair and sold gems to player A. Players A/C are going to be doing something do to earn them more gold.
You never needed the cash shop in GW1 and you DIDN'T have to grind hard if you chose not to use it. They seem to say the same about GW2. If you believe them or not is something everyone will have to decide. And of course theres a difference in design, its 2 different games with different mechanics.
I dont really think the repair issue will be as severe as you think. You realize that everyone can bring up a downed player, and that you dont suffer item damage at all unless you're downed AND defeated. Furthermore, at least 4 of the professions can have an in-combat res as an utility/elite skill, heck the warrior has 2 of them.
And it seems you need to be downed AND defeated 7 times before even one piece of equipment is broken. So the repair issue doesnt seem like a big deal to me.
To me most stuff in the shop seems to be time savers in the end. How horrible is that really? If someone starts playing any random themepark after launch he would be at a similar "disadvantage" as he would be in this game to people heavy on the cash shop: others would be higher level, and have more gold and equipment. Is that an outragous thing in a themepark?
My point isn't that it will be a huge issue, I said myself its a small thing, but its a design philosophy issue.
Before death was its own punishment. Then they needed attriticion mechanics for the good of the game. Now the attriticion mechanics are good for the game because they encourage you to spend gems to skip them.
Its like if they add a trait respec kit into the CS...I'm not saying they will. What happened to wanting permance, you only want permance if I don't buy the kit.
Again I will go back to my original question..If the attricion mechanic was so important why let someone pay to skip it.
The cash shop hasn't ruined Champions Online, one of hte most enjoyable things I've played in a long time, and something really not that far from what GW2 will be.
The subscription model has ruined so many games through big business demanding that content and assets are reused to prolong playing time to keep people playing longer. The way in which the subscription (or P2P if you're an acronymist) harms the game is in that failing.
"We've just developed this amazing bit of content."
"How long does it last?"
"About 25 minutes in total. It's really, really fun! Players will love it, we had a blast playing it."
"25 minutes isn't a long time to keep players playing and paying... what can you do to extend that?"
"We... could have them repeat some parts of the content, extend it out to an hour."
"Just an hour?"
"We could add some trash mobs and things in between for them to grind on, just to delay them so they don't get from one part to the next too quickly."
"And how long will that last?"
"About two hours?"
"What else can you do?"
"We could throw a fetch quest in there which has them go to somewhere across the map, kill some trash mobs, and come back for meagre rewards - and make it necessary for continuation."
"And how long will that last?"
"About three or four hours if we really stretch it."
"Great!"
"But it's not going to be anywhere near as fun as it was... it will still have some highlights but it's going to be pretty shitty for them."
"Eh, make it up to them with better gear or some exclusive ability. Promise them something really fun at the end of it."
"We... can do that. It won't be anything too special, some will still be a bit disappointed, but we'll just put in an exclusive colourisation for some armour or something to sweeten the deal, too."
"Great idea. Now you're getting it."
"I still don't like this, though... it would be so much fun if we left it at the original 25 minutes."
And that's really the problem with P2P. When you play WoW next, you'll see it. Watch out for repetitive, samey content, pointless fetch quests that have you going over large areas, trash mobs that just get in your way with the purpose of slowing you down and so on. It takes 25 really fun minutes and turns them into a three or four hour long grind.
This is why I don't believe in carrots, if you have 25 really fun minutes of something, people will just want to play it (like in singleplayer and co-op games). But if you extend that out for hours, you're going to need this 'carrot' thing.
The problem is is that we've all been conditioned into accepting that content can't just be 25 minutes of awesome fun.
But it can.
And I would really, truly, honestly rather have 25 minutes of pure enjoyment than a gruelling three or four hour long life-sucking process with some 'carrot' at the end.
You never needed the cash shop in GW1 and you DIDN'T have to grind hard if you chose not to use it. They seem to say the same about GW2. If you believe them or not is something everyone will have to decide. And of course theres a difference in design, its 2 different games with different mechanics.
I dont really think the repair issue will be as severe as you think. You realize that everyone can bring up a downed player, and that you dont suffer item damage at all unless you're downed AND defeated. Furthermore, at least 4 of the professions can have an in-combat res as an utility/elite skill, heck the warrior has 2 of them.
And it seems you need to be downed AND defeated 7 times before even one piece of equipment is broken. So the repair issue doesnt seem like a big deal to me.
To me most stuff in the shop seems to be time savers in the end. How horrible is that really? If someone starts playing any random themepark after launch he would be at a similar "disadvantage" as he would be in this game to people heavy on the cash shop: others would be higher level, and have more gold and equipment. Is that an outragous thing in a themepark?
My point isn't that it will be a huge issue, I said myself its a small thing, but its a design philosophy issue.
Before death was its own punishment. Then they needed attriticion mechanics for the good of the game. Now the attriticion mechanics are good for the game because they encourage you to spend gems to skip them.
Its like if they add a trait respec kit into the CS...I'm not saying they will. What happened to wanting permance, you only want permance if I don't buy the kit.
Again I will go back to my original question..If the attricion mechanic was so important why let someone pay to skip it.
I wouldn't be surprised if they've actually decided to skip having the armor repair as a major attricion mechanic: any good player could probably go for a very long time without dying at all (unless he tries explorable dungeon mode with a bunch of confused players).
It could still serve as a deterrent for trying to win encounters that are over a players head by just throwing corpses at it.
I cant really picture a lot of gold sinks right now, maybe siege equipment and other stuff in Dubwedub, and buying some crafting mats from vendors? Maybe they'll throw in something new? After all, they just love to iterate stuff over and over.
You never needed the cash shop in GW1 and you DIDN'T have to grind hard if you chose not to use it. They seem to say the same about GW2. If you believe them or not is something everyone will have to decide. And of course theres a difference in design, its 2 different games with different mechanics.
I dont really think the repair issue will be as severe as you think. You realize that everyone can bring up a downed player, and that you dont suffer item damage at all unless you're downed AND defeated. Furthermore, at least 4 of the professions can have an in-combat res as an utility/elite skill, heck the warrior has 2 of them.
And it seems you need to be downed AND defeated 7 times before even one piece of equipment is broken. So the repair issue doesnt seem like a big deal to me.
To me most stuff in the shop seems to be time savers in the end. How horrible is that really? If someone starts playing any random themepark after launch he would be at a similar "disadvantage" as he would be in this game to people heavy on the cash shop: others would be higher level, and have more gold and equipment. Is that an outragous thing in a themepark?
My point isn't that it will be a huge issue, I said myself its a small thing, but its a design philosophy issue.
Before death was its own punishment. Then they needed attriticion mechanics for the good of the game. Now the attriticion mechanics are good for the game because they encourage you to spend gems to skip them.
Its like if they add a trait respec kit into the CS...I'm not saying they will. What happened to wanting permance, you only want permance if I don't buy the kit.
Again I will go back to my original question..If the attricion mechanic was so important why let someone pay to skip it.
I wouldn't be surprised if they've actually decided to skip having the armor repair as a major attricion mechanic: any good player could probably go for a very long time without dying at all (unless he tries explorable dungeon mode with a bunch of confused players).
It could still serve as a deterrent for trying to win encounters that are over a players head by just throwing corpses at it.
I cant really picture a lot of gold sinks right now, maybe siege equipment and other stuff in Dubwedub, and buying some crafting mats from vendors? Maybe they'll throw in something new? After all, they just love to iterate stuff over and over.
Well I can see death fairly common, especially in the begining of the game as players adapt to the mechanic, the poor guy who gets stuck with a group that tries to do a dungeon with the trinity. And when mobs can drop you in a few hits or bad dodge can lead to a death they may be more common then your thinking more so if your playing alone though.
Yeah I'm not sure what said gold sinks will be, But Mike said this week there will be gold sinks so its not an if its a what and how bad.
I wouldn't be surprised if they've actually decided to skip having the armor repair as a major attricion mechanic: any good player could probably go for a very long time without dying at all (unless he tries explorable dungeon mode with a bunch of confused players).
It could still serve as a deterrent for trying to win encounters that are over a players head by just throwing corpses at it.
I cant really picture a lot of gold sinks right now, maybe siege equipment and other stuff in Dubwedub, and buying some crafting mats from vendors? Maybe they'll throw in something new? After all, they just love to iterate stuff over and over.
Im no expert but as far as I know armor damage works a little differently from the standard way Im familiar with. As you die one piece of armor gets damaged. Not sure how many armor slots there are either. 5 maybe (a guess). They all damage in turn. For instance, helmet at first death, chest piece on second, etc.
Then after they are all damaged and you die again, they start breaking one by one. I dont know if they are ruined permanently at that point but I didnt read that. Just that on being broken the benefits from them are gone maybe until repair.
I hope repair isnt too expensive. Sounds like you might have to do it a little more often than in WoW for instance. Its an interesting way of doing it, and I dont THINK Im mind it. I'll have to play GW2 to really find out.
Yeah, the megaphone & finding chest you can't open will likely become annoying, but what a lot of people seem to think is that ArenaNet will change the game or cut out features like General chat, to make these items in the cash shop a necessity.
Chests and global shouts are more then just a nuisance, they also break immersion, which is a pity becasue the game might have a lot to offer in that department. Nobody can tell now for certain if some of the cash-shop items will or will not become (semi) mandatory to participate in groups, as is the case now in GW1 with some consumables. Besides that, with gems tradeable for gold you can imagine nothing gives an 'unfair advantage' because you can always get it without paying cash.
Originally posted by evicton ... the poor guy who gets stuck with a group that tries to do a dungeon with the trinity. ....
You can always zone out or disconnect to prevent your armour from breaking due to these 'noobs'. .... Great, well not.
I wouldn't be surprised if they've actually decided to skip having the armor repair as a major attricion mechanic: any good player could probably go for a very long time without dying at all (unless he tries explorable dungeon mode with a bunch of confused players).
It could still serve as a deterrent for trying to win encounters that are over a players head by just throwing corpses at it.
I cant really picture a lot of gold sinks right now, maybe siege equipment and other stuff in Dubwedub, and buying some crafting mats from vendors? Maybe they'll throw in something new? After all, they just love to iterate stuff over and over.
Im no expert but as far as I know armor damage works a little differently from the standard way Im familiar with. As you die one piece of armor gets damaged. Not sure how many armor slots there are either. 5 maybe (a guess). They all damage in turn. For instance, helmet at first death, chest piece on second, etc.
Then after they are all damaged and you die again, they start breaking one by one. I dont know if they are ruined permanently at that point but I didnt read that. Just that on being broken the benefits from them are gone maybe until repair.
I hope repair isnt too expensive. Sounds like you might have to do it a little more often than in WoW for instance. Its an interesting way of doing it, and I dont THINK Im mind it. I'll have to play GW2 to really find out.
I wouldn't be surprised if they've actually decided to skip having the armor repair as a major attricion mechanic: any good player could probably go for a very long time without dying at all (unless he tries explorable dungeon mode with a bunch of confused players).
It could still serve as a deterrent for trying to win encounters that are over a players head by just throwing corpses at it.
I cant really picture a lot of gold sinks right now, maybe siege equipment and other stuff in Dubwedub, and buying some crafting mats from vendors? Maybe they'll throw in something new? After all, they just love to iterate stuff over and over.
Im no expert but as far as I know armor damage works a little differently from the standard way Im familiar with. As you die one piece of armor gets damaged. Not sure how many armor slots there are either. 5 maybe (a guess). They all damage in turn. For instance, helmet at first death, chest piece on second, etc.
Then after they are all damaged and you die again, they start breaking one by one. I dont know if they are ruined permanently at that point but I didnt read that. Just that on being broken the benefits from them are gone maybe until repair.
I hope repair isnt too expensive. Sounds like you might have to do it a little more often than in WoW for instance. Its an interesting way of doing it, and I dont THINK Im mind it. I'll have to play GW2 to really find out.
That is a starting area though, so unless they've gone with a flat repair fee system instead of one that scales with the level of your gear thats the bottom barrel of repair costs per say.
Comments
Sure, but you need to accept that I'm not a hater just because we disagree. I want to play this game as a sub game (which I can't)
1. They have previously had a cash shop in GW2 that is not P2W.
past results aren't indicative of future performance. GW2 was built from the ground up as an item shop game. It's quoted in what's his toes' blog post. I can find if if I need to. GW1 was built as B2P before the era of cash shops. The cash shop in GW1 was a bolt-on. They didn't have the back end mechanics to tweak drops and difficulty on the fly like they do now. Please note - I'm not saying they will, however their only means of profit after the initial box would be to 'encourage' cash shop purchases.
2. They made many claims about their game, and then have backed it up by actually showing what they claimed to be doing
To counterpoint, there needs to be a point. These are general statements. We are debating the cash shop here. Do you have any GW2 references you'd like to point out as a point of debate?
3. In the leaked information on the cash shop, there is nothing that is p2w.
This depends on your definition of P2W. If the game is competitive then "win" means one thing, but if the way to measure yourself in a game is based on how you look to other players then win means something else entirely. "Winning" in these terms is a personal definition therefore Pay to Win is entirely subjective. P2W isn't a factor to me anyways. I'd dominate. I want to play a game where everyone playes by the same rules and the resulting social statification (or e-peen) is defined by the game rules rather than disposable income.
I think I would like to play against the CS servers too...look at all the energy the CS has created...now imagine that on a battlefield. We would have some spectacular wars.
The thing about cash shops is not about the individual player.
He says "I don't need anything in there, it doesn't bother me, I don't need to spend a dime."
Well, OK, fine, But it's not about that one player. It's about what the community as a whole is doing.
How Cash shops ruin games is the Meta-Game.
Once people stop having to go out and farm stuff...This is the player base as a whole, not "you" the individual.
So now you have large amounts of people taken out of loops in large numbers. People stop farming, people stop doing PVP, people stop crafting, People stop grouping Etc etc.
Seriously, do you even know THAT much? The people acting like the sky is falling aren't even privy to the product, and especially not the finished product. Whatever use store items have does not counteract the gameplay as some people are pretending, it only makes things convenient for people who don't want to do things only one way. I don't think any of the naysayers have proof of the game having "inconvenient" parts simply to justify a cash shop.
Another poll about this is useless. MMORPG is full of people who like to take a piss on anything, good or bad, because negative opinions get more attention. But people who are concerned about the cash shop to the point they won't play the game are still a very small minority.
I would love a sub server, I'd be willing to go against the CS server in RvRvR
I should add, though it is implied, that they will keep going all the way to P2W if you let them. If they can spin it so the trusting minds accept it, they'll go there. This is the reason to put up a stink now - while it's in beta - before everything is set as a precedent.
I would have no problem with a cash shop game that had a sub option if they would keep the drops and mechanics seperate between sub players and free players. It would become immediately apparent upon comparison however, how they were gimping gameplay to drive people to the shop and therefore won't ever happen.
It would be cool if they had a subscription server and a CS server option. How many of you would choose the subscription server? I think I would just for the sake of simplicity. I wonder which server would win on wvwvw?
I would play on the subscription server and I have talked about this in another thread, but I would only want to play other subscription servers due to the RvRvR advantages you can get with items that you can purchase with gold which you can purchase with real life money.
I think I would like to play against the CS servers too...look at all the energy the CS has created...now imagine that on a battlefield. We would have some spectacular wars.
I would love a sub server, I'd be willing to go against the CS server in RvRvR
Paid server transfers kill that concept.
Actually is pretty clear, when we say attricion mechanics were refering to the dev post on why they added a repair fee. Which was a shift from when they had previously said 'dying was its own punishment'. Now we have the repair kit, which saves you the hassle going back to town to repair. Under their previous philosphy there was no "hassle' to begin with.
Its really such a small thing alot of people wouldn't really notice, but it shows there willing to add in mechanics go into great detail why these mechanics are so important to the game. Then sell an item that takes the inconvenience out of the mechanic. If they really felt it was so important to add it into the game why sell someone that makes it so you can play without it.
Take the Magic: The Gathering 'What Color Are You?' Quiz.
Seriously, do you even know THAT much? The people acting like the sky is falling aren't even privy to the product, and especially not the finished product. Whatever use store items have does not counteract the gameplay as some people are pretending, it only makes things convenient for people who don't want to do things only one way. I don't think any of the naysayers have proof of the game having "inconvenient" parts simply to justify a cash shop.
Another poll about this is useless. MMORPG is full of people who like to take a piss on anything, good or bad, because negative opinions get more attention. But people who are concerned about the cash shop to the point they won't play the game are still a very small minority.
Actually is pretty clear, when we say attricion mechanics were refering to the dev post on why they added a repair fee. Which was a shift from when they had previously said 'dying was its own punishment'. Now we have the repair kit, which saves you the hassle going back to town to repair. Under their previous philosphy there was no "hassle' to begin with.
Its really such a small thing alot of people wouldn't really notice, but it shows there willing to add in mechanics go into great detail why these mechanics are so important to the game. Then sell an item that takes the inconvenience out of the mechanic. If they really felt it was so important to add it into the game why sell someone that makes it so you can play without it.
They are designed so that as time wears on, you really feel the pressure of it.
So subtle but it's there and it builds.
Taking just this mechanic, such a small thing and its in other mmos so its familiar. You have 2 players.
Player A: Player A thinks paying cash to repair his gear is absurd, no matter how nice it would be to do it out of town. So he has two options a only repair in town or b use in game means to obtain the repair kits, now say there craftable by one profession he may feel inclined to pick that profession or he may spend x mount of time getting money so he can purchase them.
Player B: Thinks being able to buy repair kits is awesome finally he will never have to go to town to repair. He makes a choice that he will never carry less then 10 of these. So he goes to the cash shop and buys 10, now he doesn't want his inventory to be limited by his new convenience either so he may grab a bag while he's there too. Now whenever he uses a repair kit he feels he buys another, since gems are bought in packs of 400 he sometimes has extra, with those extra he might buy something else or maybe sells those gems to player a for more gold, which he already has quite a bit of since he never pays gold to repair anyway.
When they implemented this mechanic do you think they had anything else in mind then to encourage player B types while also not totally offending player a.
Heres the thing about the green part though: P2P games HAVE designs that are NOT for the good of the game.
Such as a slightly time consuming nature, and something that is addictive (long lvling time, repeating stuff over and over for a carrot that keeps movin further away, the skinner box design). Its just that people are kind of conditioned to accept these things by now.
For the yellow part we have their track record (GW1 cash shop didnt turn horribad yet), what we have seen about the game mechanics that doesnt really suggest that lvl is a big deal (side-kicking, downlvling to fit the zone), and what they say: that the leveling curve is pretty much flat compared to other MMOs.
http://www.arena.net/blog/progression-and-leveling-in-guild-wars-2
All which implies that it wont be a P2W grindtastic game. Of course one could argue that they are just lying and that all the footage from press is false somehow(?), but then again there wouldnt be much ground for a discussion, would there?
In the end, if you cant believe it, then dont buy it... just wait for a while or research it a bit more. Lets just try to stay calm and not make up too many doom and gloom scenarios, kk?
Again when you look at the Guild Wars 1 cash shop as opposed to the one in GW2 there is a huge difference in design. This arenanet themselves said gw cash shop was tacked on while gw 2 cash shop was been designed directly into the game. So thinking your going to get the same kind of experience from both of them doesn't seem to be true.
Look at my post above yours and that scenario thats not something you'd find in the original game. Something so small as a 'repair kit' as an effect on everyone.
Even if we add another player
Player C- Only repairs in towns and says blah to repair kits.
Now Mike has already said there will be gold sinks in the game with just this design choice a small thing as repair kit. When faced with another gold sink Player B is gonna have no issues cause he never used gold to repair and sold gems to player A. Players A/C are going to be doing something do to earn them more gold.
I think the cash shop is great. People that want to pay for things will generate revenue to keep the title alive and healthy. People that don't want to pay for things will still be able to enjoy the full game while only paying their box purchase. The people that are offended and refuse to play won't be spamming in global chat on all the things that they complain about.
It's almost the perfect system, they are just missing one component. They should have an "instant win potion" that costs about $5. When the player uses the IWP, their session slows to "bullet time" and their toon creates a fantastic display of carnage, killing everything in the immediate area and then "You Win!" is displayed up on the screen. The game rolls through the final credits and then logs the person out. Everybody else just sees the person log out, and is not affected by the potion in any way.
Yes and his account is deleted after using the potion, I agree
Responding to the highlight in green, I'll back you up and also say that no, in P2P design choices are not made for the benefit of the game. But rather for craming as many time sinks as humanly possible over and over again into the game. There are loads of them. The entire game is focused around them. Just thinking about WoW and Im reminded of time sink hell. The goal is to keep you doing mundane things for as long as possible to keep you playing as long as possible.
Grinding, crafting useless items for days to get one good thing, even griffin points. No you dont teleport, you have to wait ten minutes for a long flight. Endless dungeon raids, where I once ran one instance over 50 times to get one sword. Almost every single mechanic in that game is very time consuming and its meant to be that way . Absolutely everything is designed to take as long as possible. There are many mmos that do just this so I dont mean to pick on WoW.
But when a game is designed around P2P, its designed to keep you doing some side activity for as LONG as humanly possible adding up to possibly hundreds of hours you spent doing something when you weren't really questing or playing the game directly. Time sinks. Meant to keep you playing so they can get that next monthly fee.
You never needed the cash shop in GW1 and you DIDN'T have to grind hard if you chose not to use it. They seem to say the same about GW2. If you believe them or not is something everyone will have to decide. And of course theres a difference in design, its 2 different games with different mechanics.
I dont really think the repair issue will be as severe as you think. You realize that everyone can bring up a downed player, and that you dont suffer item damage at all unless you're downed AND defeated. Furthermore, at least 4 of the professions can have an in-combat res as an utility/elite skill, heck the warrior has 2 of them.
And it seems you need to be downed AND defeated 7 times before even one piece of equipment is broken. So the repair issue doesnt seem like a big deal to me.
To me most stuff in the shop seems to be time savers in the end. How horrible is that really? If someone starts playing any random themepark after launch he would be at a similar "disadvantage" as he would be in this game to people heavy on the cash shop: others would be higher level, and have more gold and equipment. Is that an outragous thing in a themepark?
At most game release loads of people complains that the game is unrealistic,well beeing able to buy gear and stuff ingame is just as in RL, you got cash and you are able to buy benefits.Games are getting closer to realistic all the time.
My point isn't that it will be a huge issue, I said myself its a small thing, but its a design philosophy issue.
Before death was its own punishment. Then they needed attriticion mechanics for the good of the game. Now the attriticion mechanics are good for the game because they encourage you to spend gems to skip them.
Its like if they add a trait respec kit into the CS...I'm not saying they will. What happened to wanting permance, you only want permance if I don't buy the kit.
Again I will go back to my original question..If the attricion mechanic was so important why let someone pay to skip it.
All I know is...
The cash shop hasn't ruined Champions Online, one of hte most enjoyable things I've played in a long time, and something really not that far from what GW2 will be.
The subscription model has ruined so many games through big business demanding that content and assets are reused to prolong playing time to keep people playing longer. The way in which the subscription (or P2P if you're an acronymist) harms the game is in that failing.
"We've just developed this amazing bit of content."
"How long does it last?"
"About 25 minutes in total. It's really, really fun! Players will love it, we had a blast playing it."
"25 minutes isn't a long time to keep players playing and paying... what can you do to extend that?"
"We... could have them repeat some parts of the content, extend it out to an hour."
"Just an hour?"
"We could add some trash mobs and things in between for them to grind on, just to delay them so they don't get from one part to the next too quickly."
"And how long will that last?"
"About two hours?"
"What else can you do?"
"We could throw a fetch quest in there which has them go to somewhere across the map, kill some trash mobs, and come back for meagre rewards - and make it necessary for continuation."
"And how long will that last?"
"About three or four hours if we really stretch it."
"Great!"
"But it's not going to be anywhere near as fun as it was... it will still have some highlights but it's going to be pretty shitty for them."
"Eh, make it up to them with better gear or some exclusive ability. Promise them something really fun at the end of it."
"We... can do that. It won't be anything too special, some will still be a bit disappointed, but we'll just put in an exclusive colourisation for some armour or something to sweeten the deal, too."
"Great idea. Now you're getting it."
"I still don't like this, though... it would be so much fun if we left it at the original 25 minutes."
And that's really the problem with P2P. When you play WoW next, you'll see it. Watch out for repetitive, samey content, pointless fetch quests that have you going over large areas, trash mobs that just get in your way with the purpose of slowing you down and so on. It takes 25 really fun minutes and turns them into a three or four hour long grind.
This is why I don't believe in carrots, if you have 25 really fun minutes of something, people will just want to play it (like in singleplayer and co-op games). But if you extend that out for hours, you're going to need this 'carrot' thing.
The problem is is that we've all been conditioned into accepting that content can't just be 25 minutes of awesome fun.
But it can.
And I would really, truly, honestly rather have 25 minutes of pure enjoyment than a gruelling three or four hour long life-sucking process with some 'carrot' at the end.
I wouldn't be surprised if they've actually decided to skip having the armor repair as a major attricion mechanic: any good player could probably go for a very long time without dying at all (unless he tries explorable dungeon mode with a bunch of confused players).
It could still serve as a deterrent for trying to win encounters that are over a players head by just throwing corpses at it.
I cant really picture a lot of gold sinks right now, maybe siege equipment and other stuff in Dubwedub, and buying some crafting mats from vendors? Maybe they'll throw in something new? After all, they just love to iterate stuff over and over.
Well I can see death fairly common, especially in the begining of the game as players adapt to the mechanic, the poor guy who gets stuck with a group that tries to do a dungeon with the trinity. And when mobs can drop you in a few hits or bad dodge can lead to a death they may be more common then your thinking more so if your playing alone though.
Yeah I'm not sure what said gold sinks will be, But Mike said this week there will be gold sinks so its not an if its a what and how bad.
Im no expert but as far as I know armor damage works a little differently from the standard way Im familiar with. As you die one piece of armor gets damaged. Not sure how many armor slots there are either. 5 maybe (a guess). They all damage in turn. For instance, helmet at first death, chest piece on second, etc.
Then after they are all damaged and you die again, they start breaking one by one. I dont know if they are ruined permanently at that point but I didnt read that. Just that on being broken the benefits from them are gone maybe until repair.
I hope repair isnt too expensive. Sounds like you might have to do it a little more often than in WoW for instance. Its an interesting way of doing it, and I dont THINK Im mind it. I'll have to play GW2 to really find out.
Chests and global shouts are more then just a nuisance, they also break immersion, which is a pity becasue the game might have a lot to offer in that department.
Nobody can tell now for certain if some of the cash-shop items will or will not become (semi) mandatory to participate in groups, as is the case now in GW1 with some consumables.
Besides that, with gems tradeable for gold you can imagine nothing gives an 'unfair advantage' because you can always get it without paying cash.
You can always zone out or disconnect to prevent your armour from breaking due to these 'noobs'. .... Great, well not.
Repairs seem to be pretty cheap right now, yet as with all things, it is subject to change.
That is a starting area though, so unless they've gone with a flat repair fee system instead of one that scales with the level of your gear thats the bottom barrel of repair costs per say.