In terms of combat and gameplay...I won't go so far as to say the game is "hardcore" but this is NOT a game you hand to a new MMO player, just simply because they will be frustrated at dying all the time. Once they "get it" (if they do) it turns from ridiculously hard to fun and chalenging, but there's a bit of a learning curve.
Actually, you may be somewhat wrong here, about the "new MMO player".
Think about it... a new MMO player won't have his head stuck so deeply into the EQ/WOW style combat that he can't imagine anything else. a totally new MMO player won't try to play this like he played WoW or LOTRO, but will immediately play it "right".
So actually, a new MMO player may be better at GW2 than those who never played anything else than EQ/WoW clones
Respect, walk, what did you say? Respect, walk Are you talkin' to me? Are you talkin' to me? - PANTERA at HELLFEST 2023
In terms of combat and gameplay...I won't go so far as to say the game is "hardcore" but this is NOT a game you hand to a new MMO player, just simply because they will be frustrated at dying all the time. Once they "get it" (if they do) it turns from ridiculously hard to fun and chalenging, but there's a bit of a learning curve.
Actually, you may be somewhat wrong here, about the "new MMO player".
Think about it... a new MMO player won't have his head stuck so deeply into the EQ/WOW style combat that he can't imagine anything else. a totally new MMO player won't try to play this like he played WoW or LOTRO, but will immediately play it "right".
So actually, a new MMO player may be better at GW2 than those who never played anything else than EQ/WoW clones
You might have a point there. Let's call it the "middle ground" players then. The ones that have enough experience to know how MMOs traditionally work, but aren't badass enough to handle big challenges easily.
Which kinda sounds like the definition of a casual MMO player, again.
I love the assumption that casual automatically means 'easy'. It doesn't, and this game is a good example of that. As is the first guild wars game. Many people still have a lot of trouble with the first game, and need to look up guides to beat a lot of the content.
This game is casual in the sense that it doesn't require a huge time investment from you. You can play as often or little as you like, and you're skill is what's going to play a large part of how well you do. Furthermore, the game isn't easy. This should already be clear, as we have quite a lot of people who are already complaining about the difficulty.
Does this game require a huge timesink from players to enjoy it? No. And in that sense, yes it's casual.
Is this game easy? So far it's not. People are dying all the time, and there re videos clearly showing differences in skill lvl between players. We haven't even seen the hardest content yet, either.
just look at the people that are casuals.they want things easy,they cry when things get hard
Generalizations are always bad, not to mention the opposite is even more true, nothing dries the tears of the "hardcores" on the forum once they run out of content. The biggest whiners are definitely not the casual players.
By the way, casual doesn't mean "noob" or "bad" - it just means someone with a life, meaning he doesn't play video games 8+ hours a day.
Respect, walk, what did you say? Respect, walk Are you talkin' to me? Are you talkin' to me? - PANTERA at HELLFEST 2023
just look at the people that are casuals.they want things easy,they cry when things get hard
Depends on your definition. There's Time Casuals, who can be as skilled or moreso than any "hardcore" player, but just want a game they can hop on for a couple hours, screw around, and then done. No commitment.
Then there's Content Casuals, who don't want a game only best of the best can even bother playing. I wouldn't even go so far as to say they want it easy; they just don't want a game where only super-badass-hardcore players can play. By a "hardcore" gamer's definition, that probably IS easy mode. But the 99% of players that don't fit that bill say otherwise.
Oh. And I am Terrant. I like to think of myself as the 1%, but I'm totally supporting the 99%.
If you define "Hardcore" vs "Casual" as how much time needs to be put into the game to be successful, GW2 is casual.
If you define "Hardcore" vs "Casual" as how much thought and skill needs to be put into the game to be successful, GW2 is the most hardcore themepark out there.
If you're comparing GW2 vs WoW, then yes GW2 is more "Casual" than WoW.
If you're comparing GW2 to other MMOs such as EQ, DAOC, UO, SWG, etc then yes....yes it is Casual.
By that frame of reference I guess it is Casual, but I wouldn't call it a negative. It just means there will be some who want to play GW2 and some who won't.
The Theory of Conservative Conservation of Ignorant Stupidity: Having a different opinion must mean you're a troll.
GW2 is far from being something to be pigeon-holed into a hardcore vs casual category, I think. Staunch Themeparkers might not understand this while being subjected to mundane and repetitively shallow activities in the themepark world, they are accustom to, as the developers forced you along a very regimented and linear trail-line from one hub to the next in order to be part of their community; or to raid higher content for that matter.
Most from the themepark era, perhaps, will find it very hard to understand that getting gear or grinding by constantly whacking static mobs or doing re-hashed linear quests, aka leveling up & grinding again, are not really motivators people have experienced in order to play those themepark mmo’s, but it was a necessity to play them.
For those maturing mmo players that have their roots in the genre that stem from having played an mmo when they were actually massively-multiplayer community games, understand that for the most part, there wasn’t gear that had to be continuously chased after and ground for. Also, there really weren’t leveling restrictions that sharply divided community from participating in core game-play as a community member; the games fostered more player-centric interdependence within a persistent organic world.
There was a time when the reward was the game itself, which even pre-dates most on this site. In GW2, there will be a refreshing re-introduction of interdependence with game-play mechanics where you don't have to be concerned about chasing after rewards (aka carrot on a stick.)
In addition, with GW2, due to not catering to the conventional themepark mentality, end-game starts at the beginning of the game. That combined without having the barrier of the subscription payment model and the stigma of the free to play model, it alone becomes a genuinely good game to explore. A game in which probably millions will pick it up; probably millions that have been mmo nomads. Mmo nomads that just might have found something that offers just about everything they enjoy in a game, short of being really sandboxy, but with a much larger replayability. That without no real grinds and a world that feels alive like no other themepark mmo before.
The question should be not "whether or not GW2 is a casual or a hardcore game?" It should be "whether or not GW2 is a fun game?"
For some reason people put these artificial limiters on games which make little sense to me. Just because you're a hardcore gamer, doesn't mean that you can't have fun with casual game or vice versa. Hell, I'm a pretty big FPS fan but it doesn't mean that I can't enjoy a bit of Plants vs Zombies every once in a while. People should concentrate more on having fun rather than some arbitrary labels that don't really mean much anyway.
The question should be not "whether or not GW2 is a casual or a hardcore game?" It should be "whether or not GW2 is a fun game?"
For some reason people put these artificial limiters on games which make little sense to me. Just because you're a hardcore gamer, doesn't mean that you can't have fun with casual game or vice versa. Hell, I'm a pretty big FPS fan but it doesn't mean that I can't enjoy a bit of Plants vs Zombies every once in a while. People should concentrate more on having fun rather than some arbitrary labels that don't really mean much anyway.
Just my opinion.
Hush!
This is a forum for discussing games. Fun has nothing to do with that. SRS BZNZ.
The question should be not "whether or not GW2 is a casual or a hardcore game?" It should be "whether or not GW2 is a fun game?"
For some reason people put these artificial limiters on games which make little sense to me. Just because you're a hardcore gamer, doesn't mean that you can't have fun with casual game or vice versa. Hell, I'm a pretty big FPS fan but it doesn't mean that I can't enjoy a bit of Plants vs Zombies every once in a while. People should concentrate more on having fun rather than some arbitrary labels that don't really mean much anyway.
Just my opinion.
Hush!
This is a forum for discussing games. Fun has nothing to do with that. SRS BZNZ.
You're absolutely right. I should know better by now.
Does any mmo satisfy a hardcore level/gear grinder?
All the hardcore pvprs i know are drooling over this game. Hardcore (should i say ultra competitve players ) dislike gear imbalance. Their personal skills being put to the test on a level playing field.
I can only dedicate ~15 hours a week to video games, this appeals very much to me as well. I don' t have to worry about getting pvp lvl 9999 with pvp gear level 9999++.
Yeah i have to level, learn, train skills... but i can do so without worry about rushing to end game in 1 week to ne viable.
Also, ever notice in many mmo launches - STWOR being a recent example- hardcore grinders rush to end level and exploit end game xp/gear leveling.... then they get to max out.
Then Devs figure they have to nerf the rate of gain, a zone, or unintended game mechanics...
Leaving the rushers with perms advantages that become too steep for a causuals to hope to achieve.
What about hardcore pve/ farm(not grind!) players? Some one said no lifers. Hell, I am one. At least for 3-4 months per year. Should I stay away from this game? Is there nothing for me here? No matter where I go, when it comes to GW2 people talking about nothing but PvP. Okay its not that I dont like PvP but for me it was always on 2nd place.
Anyone remember the big kerfeufel various hardcore farmers made in GW1 when Anet made the AI flee out of AoEs?
They pitched a hissy fit because they wanted to farm ad infinitum using tactics even they said looked stupid. Everyone was like so you want the mobs you fight stand in fire,doing nothing and die?
And their answer was "Well yeah of course". Then they got asked "So if you were on fire and burning you would just stand there and keep firing arrows at someone". There answer was "No of course not but I like mindless farming it releaves stress".
This is old hat for Anet the whole grind thing. They don't have much simpathy for it. Not to say GW1 doesn't have grindy stuff in it. But that was more of a concession than somethign they thought was good.
To do List quest - Mindlessly runing around killing 10 wolfs for wolf teeth, and get pissed when you see another person in your camp taking your wolfs.
PvP - que up againts ppl that just run around fighting for them selfs instead of helping defend points
Progression - Running the same Heroics over and over till you eyes bleed just to run the first raid over and over till you eyes bleed.
you can be negative all you what about what ever mmo. its all in the eye of the beholder what they find fun. I personaly find GW2 more fun than WoW clone games.
Endless raiding for T1-T2-T3-T4-T5-T6-T7-T8-T-9... should i go further?
GW2 end this useless bleeding eyes wasted gametime.
NUFF SAID!
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What about hardcore pve/ farm(not grind!) players? Some one said no lifers. Hell, I am one. At least for 3-4 months per year. Should I stay away from this game? Is there nothing for me here? No matter where I go, when it comes to GW2 people talking about nothing but PvP. Okay its not that I dont like PvP but for me it was always on 2nd place.
Its actually bringing a lot tot he table with PvE, not just PvE as in fighting mobs. Just a couple example:
Theres the Dynamic Events system, where player actions, or lack of action, impacts the surrounding area setting off different chains of events depending on what happened in previous events. It wont be like most other games where you go to an area knowing exactly what quest there is, how to do it, etc every time. You may go through an area 1 day and experience 1 set of events, then go back through it the next day on the same character or an alt and experience a whole different set of events. These events effect things like which mobs are in the area, which NPCs are there, what conversations and items NPCs have, etc.
Along with the info above, some of the events are random, some of them are cyclical (repeating, and some of them are triggered by specific player actions (maybe a player finds a hidden magical orb somewhere and activates it, and this sets off an event that wasnt previously there).
The dynamic events scale to the numbr of players in the area, so wethe ryoure on your own or there is a massive group of people participatng in the event, it is generally just as challenging either way.
You are rewarded for your participation. You gain Karma and other rewards based on the amount you contribute to the completion of an event and that Karma is used to buy equipment. So even if youre not as good as othe rplayers, youre still gaining rewards and progressing towards being able to purchas ethe same rewards as everyone else. In comparison, Public Quests in WAR only offered X amount of loot bags at the end of a PQ and those rewards were given based on a mix of contribution + random dice rolls. Generally if you had the highest contribution and got a decent dice roll you won the best loot bag and many others would get crap.
You will scale to the content. So even if youre level 80 and go back to a level 10 area, its not going to be running around 1 shotting everything and earning no worthwhile rewards. You will be scaled down to match the content, with a slight bonus due to your natural level, but it will still offer a bit of a challenge. Likewise the rewards will also scale.
Explorers and crafters/gatherers are rewarded. Unlike many games, where any time spent just roaming around exploring new things, or gathering, or crafting stops your characters overall progress, GW2 allows you to continue advancing an dgaining experience from performing just about any task. Gather some herbs = get xp. Craft some armors = get Xp.
I'm thinking along the lines of what others have posted, GW2 aims to be accessable. This is a major plus to me, you'll see other games become more accessable over time as well.
Casual as in 5 man PvE content is the major part is nice. I dislike having to organize a 20 man raid. Having 20 people on to do a few instance together is nice though.
As for DE, I'll say that at about level 10 we ran into a DE that was slaughtering us (about 5 random players not grouped). After about 5 minutes of this you saw the evolution of the player. At the end we were taking turns tanking, healing, aoe, croud control. When it was all said and done (the boss lost more health in the last 3 minutes compared to the first 5) a few of us actually commented how easier it was once we started playing together.
That gives me high hopes for the future of the game.
I fail to see how a game that is extremely accessible is put into "casual gamers only" category. Especially a game that will kick the crap out of you and spit on your smoking broken corpse over and over again even in areas that are under level 30.
Guild Wars 2 is very difficult even in some of the beginning areas. Zerging bosses just doesn't work in this game, and 40+ dead player corpses laying around the Fire Shaman group event boss proves that.
The fact that the game is incredibly easy to access to all players doesn't mean that it's carebear only for casual players, the fact that it is cripplingly dififcult but fair and challenging means that its for ALL types of gamers, and saying its only for the casual or hardcore is NOT doing a game that is this finely crafted justice.
If you're comparing GW2 vs WoW, then yes GW2 is more "Casual" than WoW.
If you're comparing GW2 to other MMOs such as EQ, DAOC, UO, SWG, etc then yes....yes it is Casual.
By that frame of reference I guess it is Casual, but I wouldn't call it a negative. It just means there will be some who want to play GW2 and some who won't.
So compared to WoW its casual and its casual compared to every other mmo too? What? What the heck are you talking about?
GW2 is apparently far more difficult and challenging than most mmos, as reviewers who've played it have said so. Its easy to get into, but as you level up, it supposedly gets complex in later levels. As far as I know, even the beginning levels you can die easily if you arent careful.
How is that casual again? I mean if you want to mention WoW I can get to 60 with most classes without dying once. Not once.
Seriously as far as I know GW2 is not casual in any sense of the word. People going in expecting an easy ride may very well be seriously frustrated before long. Its the other way around from the way you describe it.
DEs - Run around with a bunch of people picking apples, chopping trees and zerging monsters. No stratagey needed. No communication needed. If you die run back until the event ends. Very low stress no prepartion time needed. Jump in when ever you want.
PvP - Click a button jump in a battle. Gear is normalized. No need to gear up. Learn the rules, then zerg towers, zerg keeps, zerg supply lines? Heavy emphasis on groups. Not much 1v1.
Progression - Max level gear is all weighted the same. One person my have a different stat allocation, but the power level is the same. No tiers, no power advancement. A person playing for 5 months is the same as someone who has played 1 month, other than cosmetics.
I think this is perfect for a couple of my friends who work long hours. I'll probably tell them to buy a copy so we can jump in on the weekend and get a few hours of pvp in. If I'm correct they should be at no disadvantage compared to those who spend 40 hours a week in game, right?
Player skill?
Little forum boys with their polished cyber toys: whine whine, boo-hoo, talk talk.
Comments
Actually, you may be somewhat wrong here, about the "new MMO player".
Think about it... a new MMO player won't have his head stuck so deeply into the EQ/WOW style combat that he can't imagine anything else. a totally new MMO player won't try to play this like he played WoW or LOTRO, but will immediately play it "right".
So actually, a new MMO player may be better at GW2 than those who never played anything else than EQ/WoW clones
Respect, walk
Are you talkin' to me? Are you talkin' to me?
- PANTERA at HELLFEST 2023
You might have a point there. Let's call it the "middle ground" players then. The ones that have enough experience to know how MMOs traditionally work, but aren't badass enough to handle big challenges easily.
Which kinda sounds like the definition of a casual MMO player, again.
I love the assumption that casual automatically means 'easy'. It doesn't, and this game is a good example of that. As is the first guild wars game. Many people still have a lot of trouble with the first game, and need to look up guides to beat a lot of the content.
This game is casual in the sense that it doesn't require a huge time investment from you. You can play as often or little as you like, and you're skill is what's going to play a large part of how well you do. Furthermore, the game isn't easy. This should already be clear, as we have quite a lot of people who are already complaining about the difficulty.
Does this game require a huge timesink from players to enjoy it? No. And in that sense, yes it's casual.
Is this game easy? So far it's not. People are dying all the time, and there re videos clearly showing differences in skill lvl between players. We haven't even seen the hardest content yet, either.
casual does mean easy
just look at the people that are casuals.they want things easy,they cry when things get hard
Generalizations are always bad, not to mention the opposite is even more true, nothing dries the tears of the "hardcores" on the forum once they run out of content. The biggest whiners are definitely not the casual players.
By the way, casual doesn't mean "noob" or "bad" - it just means someone with a life, meaning he doesn't play video games 8+ hours a day.
Respect, walk
Are you talkin' to me? Are you talkin' to me?
- PANTERA at HELLFEST 2023
Depends on your definition. There's Time Casuals, who can be as skilled or moreso than any "hardcore" player, but just want a game they can hop on for a couple hours, screw around, and then done. No commitment.
Then there's Content Casuals, who don't want a game only best of the best can even bother playing. I wouldn't even go so far as to say they want it easy; they just don't want a game where only super-badass-hardcore players can play. By a "hardcore" gamer's definition, that probably IS easy mode. But the 99% of players that don't fit that bill say otherwise.
Oh. And I am Terrant. I like to think of myself as the 1%, but I'm totally supporting the 99%.
Weird, from my experience, the people whining are always the min-maxers who need to show off their epeen. Casuals rarely even visit forums.
If you define "Hardcore" vs "Casual" as how much time needs to be put into the game to be successful, GW2 is casual.
If you define "Hardcore" vs "Casual" as how much thought and skill needs to be put into the game to be successful, GW2 is the most hardcore themepark out there.
It's not a themepark, it's a fish tank with an aqueduct that flows into the ocean.
If you're comparing GW2 vs WoW, then yes GW2 is more "Casual" than WoW.
If you're comparing GW2 to other MMOs such as EQ, DAOC, UO, SWG, etc then yes....yes it is Casual.
By that frame of reference I guess it is Casual, but I wouldn't call it a negative. It just means there will be some who want to play GW2 and some who won't.
The Theory of Conservative Conservation of Ignorant Stupidity:
Having a different opinion must mean you're a troll.
The question should be not "whether or not GW2 is a casual or a hardcore game?" It should be "whether or not GW2 is a fun game?"
For some reason people put these artificial limiters on games which make little sense to me. Just because you're a hardcore gamer, doesn't mean that you can't have fun with casual game or vice versa. Hell, I'm a pretty big FPS fan but it doesn't mean that I can't enjoy a bit of Plants vs Zombies every once in a while. People should concentrate more on having fun rather than some arbitrary labels that don't really mean much anyway.
Just my opinion.
Hush!
This is a forum for discussing games. Fun has nothing to do with that. SRS BZNZ.
You're absolutely right. I should know better by now.
All the hardcore pvprs i know are drooling over this game. Hardcore (should i say ultra competitve players ) dislike gear imbalance. Their personal skills being put to the test on a level playing field.
I can only dedicate ~15 hours a week to video games, this appeals very much to me as well. I don' t have to worry about getting pvp lvl 9999 with pvp gear level 9999++.
Yeah i have to level, learn, train skills... but i can do so without worry about rushing to end game in 1 week to ne viable.
Then Devs figure they have to nerf the rate of gain, a zone, or unintended game mechanics...
Leaving the rushers with perms advantages that become too steep for a causuals to hope to achieve.
What about hardcore pve/ farm(not grind!) players? Some one said no lifers. Hell, I am one. At least for 3-4 months per year. Should I stay away from this game? Is there nothing for me here? No matter where I go, when it comes to GW2 people talking about nothing but PvP. Okay its not that I dont like PvP but for me it was always on 2nd place.
Anyone remember the big kerfeufel various hardcore farmers made in GW1 when Anet made the AI flee out of AoEs?
They pitched a hissy fit because they wanted to farm ad infinitum using tactics even they said looked stupid. Everyone was like so you want the mobs you fight stand in fire,doing nothing and die?
And their answer was "Well yeah of course". Then they got asked "So if you were on fire and burning you would just stand there and keep firing arrows at someone". There answer was "No of course not but I like mindless farming it releaves stress".
This is old hat for Anet the whole grind thing. They don't have much simpathy for it. Not to say GW1 doesn't have grindy stuff in it. But that was more of a concession than somethign they thought was good.
Endless raiding for T1-T2-T3-T4-T5-T6-T7-T8-T-9... should i go further?
GW2 end this useless bleeding eyes wasted gametime.
NUFF SAID!
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Its actually bringing a lot tot he table with PvE, not just PvE as in fighting mobs. Just a couple example:
Theres the Dynamic Events system, where player actions, or lack of action, impacts the surrounding area setting off different chains of events depending on what happened in previous events. It wont be like most other games where you go to an area knowing exactly what quest there is, how to do it, etc every time. You may go through an area 1 day and experience 1 set of events, then go back through it the next day on the same character or an alt and experience a whole different set of events. These events effect things like which mobs are in the area, which NPCs are there, what conversations and items NPCs have, etc.
Along with the info above, some of the events are random, some of them are cyclical (repeating, and some of them are triggered by specific player actions (maybe a player finds a hidden magical orb somewhere and activates it, and this sets off an event that wasnt previously there).
The dynamic events scale to the numbr of players in the area, so wethe ryoure on your own or there is a massive group of people participatng in the event, it is generally just as challenging either way.
You are rewarded for your participation. You gain Karma and other rewards based on the amount you contribute to the completion of an event and that Karma is used to buy equipment. So even if youre not as good as othe rplayers, youre still gaining rewards and progressing towards being able to purchas ethe same rewards as everyone else. In comparison, Public Quests in WAR only offered X amount of loot bags at the end of a PQ and those rewards were given based on a mix of contribution + random dice rolls. Generally if you had the highest contribution and got a decent dice roll you won the best loot bag and many others would get crap.
You will scale to the content. So even if youre level 80 and go back to a level 10 area, its not going to be running around 1 shotting everything and earning no worthwhile rewards. You will be scaled down to match the content, with a slight bonus due to your natural level, but it will still offer a bit of a challenge. Likewise the rewards will also scale.
Explorers and crafters/gatherers are rewarded. Unlike many games, where any time spent just roaming around exploring new things, or gathering, or crafting stops your characters overall progress, GW2 allows you to continue advancing an dgaining experience from performing just about any task. Gather some herbs = get xp. Craft some armors = get Xp.
Hey OP, thanks for the questions/statements!
I'm thinking along the lines of what others have posted, GW2 aims to be accessable. This is a major plus to me, you'll see other games become more accessable over time as well.
Casual as in 5 man PvE content is the major part is nice. I dislike having to organize a 20 man raid. Having 20 people on to do a few instance together is nice though.
As for DE, I'll say that at about level 10 we ran into a DE that was slaughtering us (about 5 random players not grouped). After about 5 minutes of this you saw the evolution of the player. At the end we were taking turns tanking, healing, aoe, croud control. When it was all said and done (the boss lost more health in the last 3 minutes compared to the first 5) a few of us actually commented how easier it was once we started playing together.
That gives me high hopes for the future of the game.
I hate that movie. Just saying...Philosophy of MMO Game Design
I fail to see how a game that is extremely accessible is put into "casual gamers only" category. Especially a game that will kick the crap out of you and spit on your smoking broken corpse over and over again even in areas that are under level 30.
Guild Wars 2 is very difficult even in some of the beginning areas. Zerging bosses just doesn't work in this game, and 40+ dead player corpses laying around the Fire Shaman group event boss proves that.
The fact that the game is incredibly easy to access to all players doesn't mean that it's carebear only for casual players, the fact that it is cripplingly dififcult but fair and challenging means that its for ALL types of gamers, and saying its only for the casual or hardcore is NOT doing a game that is this finely crafted justice.
So compared to WoW its casual and its casual compared to every other mmo too? What? What the heck are you talking about?
GW2 is apparently far more difficult and challenging than most mmos, as reviewers who've played it have said so. Its easy to get into, but as you level up, it supposedly gets complex in later levels. As far as I know, even the beginning levels you can die easily if you arent careful.
How is that casual again? I mean if you want to mention WoW I can get to 60 with most classes without dying once. Not once.
Seriously as far as I know GW2 is not casual in any sense of the word. People going in expecting an easy ride may very well be seriously frustrated before long. Its the other way around from the way you describe it.
Player skill?
Little forum boys with their polished cyber toys: whine whine, boo-hoo, talk talk.