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There are no raids... can you live with that?
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Off topic. But I love GW2 with all my heart. But there is no sign GW2 actually have 3 million players. You can't prove that. The only thing you can prove is they sold 3million copies. No one know how many people still play today. Besides GW2 dont' have a subscription. So just by that, they have a much easier time holding the players.
Besides, even if you remove raid from wow. Wow probably still have much more content compare to other mmorpg.
The question is why does a mmorpg with raid bothered you. I think the problem is with gear tier. And only raider usually is rewarded with the best gear.
Yeah you are right I am sure there is no where near 3 million playing it at this point, but the fact that over 3 million bought it knowing there was no raiding is a good indicator that it is not as popular as some people claim it is. Oh and having raids in MMOs does not really bother me as long as I can do them. If I cant play the whole game, I don't play the game. What bothers me is ignorant people on these forums claiming that raiding is necessary for a good game.
Oh and to the comment about "Why do people play WoW?". Simple, people play WoW because their friends are playing it. Most people who start playing WoW don't even reach it to the first expansion. There is a reason most of there expansions sell less then half of there subs worth of copies TOTAL. Some people who don't raid have the desire to raid, which may keep them going, but most people don't raid. I would be willing to bet that a lot of people playing MMOs barely know what raiding even means. (Especially in WoW) Just because alot of people play an MMO does not mean they do a specific task in it. You think alot of people are playing sPvP in GW2 right now just because it is a popular game? Hell no.
People play MMOs for a variety of reasons. The biggest reason that people play them is that they have friends to play with that play them. They are easy to play usually, laid back, and not as competitive or aggressive as other forms of multiplayer games. There are tons of people who don't even play an MMO because they have a friend who is not logged in. Think of all the people with 40+ hour jobs, school, and families. Those guys barely have time to level, let alone raid. You think the same guys who are only willing to login to play with their friends or siblings are raiding within that kind of time frame? Hell no. You want a hardcore MMO and you got it. There are plenty out there, but most people cannot spend the time doing something like raids. Raids are hardcore. They are the hardest of the hardcore.
Difficulty is not even the factor here. Time is the factor. Most people don't have time to sit around playing games for more then a couple hours a night, let alone a couple hours a night to level for 3 months and then raid within the same time frame. Alot of people don't even play MMOs very long. MMOs have an EXTREMELY high turn-over rate, but since WoW and games that are as big as GW2,Eve,ect have this high turnover rate; they can keep the active numbers high overall since they have a big pool of players that keep coming and going.
The problem: Most MMOS nowadays dont require you to group. WoW still requires you to group at end-game for the best stuff. Everquest required you to group just to level. Which formed friendships/etc. If someone said "You can quest alone, or you can gain 2x the exp questing with someone" Well then you're always going to want to group quest. Getting lower xp when questing with a group gives you these scenarios where youre talking to a friend but not grouping together because its more effecient to play by yourself. Whispering/skyping each other as youre doing the same quests.
So you're constantly torn between people quit my game at a rapid rate, but forcing people to group may not be a thing you can implement anymore like in the 2000s. I'd be all for 2x xp when questing with someone. Or maybe it becomes 1.5 when with 1, and 2x when with 2 others. People stay in MMOs because of friendships formed and because of end-game.
SWTOR didnt force you to group when level up -- so why do it? It felt so pointless to group up, which in turn made it feel like an empty world. The phasing didnt help.
You cant always give people a choice -- Otherwise you get these games that teeter in between and never fully satisfy either crowd.
I would love to see where you are getting your numbers from. http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1083-6101.2008.00428.x/full among other studies disagree with most of your analysis.
http://chroniclesofthenerds.com/nerdfight/
Y U NO FLIP TABLE?!?!?!
Oh I absolutely agree that there should be places where grouping is required in an MMO. I don't think MMOs dont have that though really. I mean even in games where you can solo your way to max level, grouping is faster. Just because an MMO requires grouping does not mean it needs raids though.
ESO is going to have plenty of grouping though. The 3 faction pvp, the dungeons, and adventure zone bosses are all going to require groups. Leveling does not require a group and it shouldn't. You pretty much have to group in the game in order to progress. I think most people who think that MMOs dont require grouping only say that because you don't need a group to level. This is obviously not the case though.
Do you know how many play F2P or P2P and never raid? Do you know how many bought Elder Scrolls ..all of them? Yeah I am sure its going to be ok.
There are millions..big word... that still in World Of Warcraft that play and never raid. Your out of the loop on this one.
Millions do not pvp either. What exactly is your point?
http://chroniclesofthenerds.com/nerdfight/
Y U NO FLIP TABLE?!?!?!
Man I really want this game but... the more I here the more I just see SWTOR v2. I can live without raids, though the memoriable battles in ES games were against 1 or 2 emenies not waves, but 4 man groups? Lame... Just lame.
Also you don't have be hardcore to enjoy raiding. Sure there was a time when I played 20+ hours in wow but even when I was only playing 5-10 hours I easily kept up with my mid of the road raid guild. Did we finish the new raid in a month? nope but it was still fun to try. Oh for the days when games didn't just hand you loot.
I will not play a game with a cash shop ever again. A dev job should be to make the game better not make me pay so it sucks less.
4 man groups that band with other 4 man groups against larger and more difficult encounters in the end-game PvE zones. That's the closest thing to raiding this game will have. The difference? If that bunch of 4 man groups manage to down the "end-game champion" (difficult NPC's or "bosses" are called by Champions in ESO); All of those groups get their own loot tables. This means that killing a "raid boss" (an encounter that requires a large group) will benefit more than 1-2 people at the time. Not only this is more rewarding, it removes the pain in the ass "Raid once a week so one of your guild mates might get one piece of gear, and you'd wait for yours for months."
The "no raids" thing is a misconception. We've got raids, but they are not implemented like your typical raids, also developers dont call them raids because it would create more misconceptions.
Its an excellent idea to get rid of raids.
World of Warcraft has totally ruined the idea of raids in MMORPG's anyway.
10 people swinging at loot pinatas does not a raid make.
Why not be able to get your loots from killing hard bosses in a 3-4 person dungeon? does 10 people really make that much of a difference? Other than needing players that actually know how to play.
Actually no-raids is new information for me, I havent followed TESO too closely, and my interest in the game just exploded. The last time I seriously did raids was in vanilla WoW, it was fun until the pattern got revealed that I lose basically everything I worked for every time an expansion hits the shelves.
Since then I have grown to dislike raids because it really seems just like an easy way for devs to say "hey here's raids for you for end-game content, now stop whining and asking for anything else", so many mmorpgs suck because the main thing seems always to be raiding in the WoW-pattern, and very little meaningful content besides that, making me quit the game or join the exhausting PvP arms race.
can you say HELL YES???
Raids is for a game that has nowhere else to go... no more creative processes is left(or its tapped out) in the dev's, so they sit down and think up a way to keep those players playing with as LITTLE effort as possible on thier part, end result, a 'epic' 'quest' that is basicly 1 dungeon which they can repeat on a timer for a small(Ish) chance for a paticular rare, or a number of 'collectables' they have to amass a specific amount to get anything...
No raids means the dev's want to keep putting that creative genius to work on things that matter: The game!
LOL odd way to look at it. Guess you could say that about PvP events or crafting, or anything else that has a propensity to repeat on any level. Any ways standard raids wont be in the game but they plan on having phased events thats will support large team play but not like standard raids. We are all waiting on info to see what thats means. One quote this weekend it sounds more like we will be fighting more masses of mobs in the phased events over just a oversized boss mob. But again thats just reading into what a dev said.
What happens when you log off your characters????.....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GFQhfhnjYMk
Dark Age of Camelot
I know how that is. Those shiny purples get replaced by quest greens/blues in just a few weeks, after the expansion hits. Then the cycle starts all over again. I finally burned out on raids. I'm hoping that TES turns out to be an entertaining game. Thats all I'm looking for these days.
I went with yes, but it seems that im minority among the MMORPG crowd. Expect the comments about TESO from many, similar to GW2's: "durr durr game is interesting to [insert level cap number here] but there is nothing to do, once you reach it durr" (when they obviously reffer to 25 men raids) ...
Mark my words.
EDIT: Oh and yes, they will probably make a comparison to WoW's 5+ years of "content" in process.
Main MMO at the moment: Guild Wars 2
Waiting for: Pathfinder Online
The irony? even if you take out raid in wow. Wow still beat out in content compare to pretty much all other standard themepark.
What's the problem with raid? nothing? if you dont' like to raid you don't "have to". But problem is raider usually get heavily rewarded compare to "the other people". THat's the problem.
I mean. Should I just not play TESO "if I don't like Alliance vs Alliance"? There is nothing wrong with a mmorpg which have "everything". The players can pick out what they enjoy doing and do it.
This whole post is wrong. Don't say "ton" and "least" and "most" when you're only using yourself and your 3 friends as a sample group. And 3 million people may have bought GW2, but that doesn't mean that mean even half that many people sitll log on.
Ironic how you counter me making numbers up based on information I have seen on this site, mmo-champion,massively,ect by doing the same thing. No one knows how many people are playing. All I know, along with people who actually play the game, is that the servers are active as they ever have been. I see just as many people in zones now as I did at launch. Hell, some zones I see MORE people. The fact is that those 3 million don't need to be playing. Just look at NC Soft reports, GW2 is making them more money then anything else atm. Considering how big of a publisher NC Soft is, and how important it is for them to keep investors, I would say they have to be doing pretty well based on these reports. I would take something said in an investor meeting with far more weight then something some guy on an MMO site with notoriously jaded MMO has beens has to say.
Most people playing MMOs don't even hit max level. This isn't something I made up. It is fairly obvious when you look at older MMOs and the population is spread so thin that guilds try to recuit people who are not even max level yet. Hell, most people quit WoW before level 10. http://wow.joystiq.com/2010/02/11/70-of-trial-players-quit-wow-before-level-10/
Did I mention that there is a gw2 patch today with a good amount of content? They keep up this monthly trend very well for a dying game. I would like to thank all the "raiders" in this thread who contributed towards buying GW2 to support my content! Keep buying into games that you think are going to be something they are not and you will surely find yourself one you like some day! You vote with your wallets children.
That means nothing. I have a WoW account thats not been used in years. But my wife and I made a trial account a few times just to see some of the lowbe areas because we missed seeing the game. Played a few hours and didnt log in again. ((shruggs))
An expansion focused almost primarily on revamping the oldest, and earliest content you see in the game following that comment from Blizzard clearly means nothing.
You obviously never saw Blizzard do a breakdown of their player base at a Blizzcon. Each time they've done it, they show that less than 20% of the player base participates in raiding content. Just like PvP garners less than 25% of the player base. All of those casuals, like me, took forever to level and or re-rolled a new toon rather than play content we can't stand. As it was, it lasted me 2.5 years before I got tired of the game altogether.
And by players you mean characters. Blizzard has never released how it breaks down by accounts.
http://chroniclesofthenerds.com/nerdfight/
Y U NO FLIP TABLE?!?!?!
It's about different styles of content being treated equally. It's hard for a quester or crafter or even PvPer to enjoy their content as much when, 1. they know they are getting crappy rewards compared to another play style and 2. knowing that they have reached the end of their ability to progress their character unless they jump on the raiding bandwagon.
The numbers are close enough to view the trend, bud. This isn't isolated to WoW either, it's fairly common in any game that has similar layers of content.