this is why i said, any game with a trinity system already has this expanded trinity that people are asking for. what people should be asking for instead is mobs/fights/encounters/etc that make us have to use those expanded roles in order to survive like EQ/Vanilla WoW/Vanguard did.
You actually have a point and I agree with it.
But again, it is not the Trinity the problem is the devs that are not able to make it work as intended (in a way or anther).
A good Trinity system provide challenge, and challenge is what keep people hooked to something (until they overcome that challenge).
That's one of the secrets of player retention.................. as opposed to watering down content so it can be eaten in 2 months (causing a player exodus)
Honestly, the main issue devs have with the trinity system isn't in making it challenging. It's actually a very simple system to design around.
The difficult comes in trying to make tanks & healers fun enough that more people play them, without making them completely imbalanced. This is something DAoC & WAR tried to do, but ran into lots of balancing outcries as a result.
That's essentially the main issue that is causing Dev's to try out other mechanics. The trinity is simple & easy to design around, the problem is most gamers don't enjoy tanking or healing enough to play them regularly. As a result, this creates a huge population imbalance between the 3 roles, and everyone suffers as a result. If it wasn't so difficult to find tanks & healers in these games, or the content wasn't as reliant on having those roles, it wouldn't be as big of an issue.
Lets take note of this on August 6th, 2013...... Since EQN will NOT have instancing, therefore ALL combat will be open world.. There will not be any Zerg'ing or Steamrolling over mobs..... Right? I want to mark this day down as it will live in infamy as the day trinity dies..
this is why i said, any game with a trinity system already has this expanded trinity that people are asking for. what people should be asking for instead is mobs/fights/encounters/etc that make us have to use those expanded roles in order to survive like EQ/Vanilla WoW/Vanguard did.
You actually have a point and I agree with it.
But again, it is not the Trinity the problem is the devs that are not able to make it work as intended (in a way or anther).
A good Trinity system provide challenge, and challenge is what keep people hooked to something (until they overcome that challenge).
That's one of the secrets of player retention.................. as opposed to watering down content so it can be eaten in 2 months (causing a player exodus)
Honestly, the main issue devs have with the trinity system isn't in making it challenging. It's actually a very simple system to design around.
The difficult comes in trying to make tanks & healers fun enough that more people play them, without making them completely imbalanced. This is something DAoC & WAR tried to do, but ran into lots of balancing outcries as a result.
That's essentially the main issue that is causing Dev's to try out other mechanics. The trinity is simple & easy to design around, the problem is most gamers don't enjoy tanking or healing enough to play them regularly. As a result, this creates a huge population imbalance between the 3 roles, and everyone suffers as a result. If it wasn't so difficult to find tanks & healers in these games, or the content wasn't as reliant on having those roles, it wouldn't be as big of an issue.
while tank and healers are less played , that are less played are far from true.... the problem with tanks is that endgame sucks for tanks, u need more gear than any1 , u need to know every encounter , after that u need to find a spot in a raid...GL with that, there are lots of tanks in endgame for the "need" , in all mmorpgs i played ppl fighted over tank spots, why? only 1 or 2 avaliable.
a raid of 10 , 20 , 40 will need how many tanks? always 1-2 ,maxi have seen 4 in some encounters but next boss u gonna need to go DPS because the boss only needs 2 tanks.
So why level a tank ? u like tanking but u will able to play tank in endgame content? or is more easy to find a spot as DPS?
Healers are different tho , u are playing the UI more than the game (if the game has boring encounters)
Dps is popular , because numbers, easy to play , fun , gear matters = more dmg (tanks gear = less dmg done to u, healers u healer more wohoo...) farming , and of course PVP , and coolness ( 2h weapons , nukes ....)
is easy to see why dps outnumber tank and healers, if u see the endgame of any mmorpg, the requeriments for raids ect
It depends what kind of trinity we're talking about.
Tank - healer - dps : I find this boring.
Tank - healer - damage - cc - support : I find this fantastic.
The role of CC and support has been diminishing so much in the MMO genre it is saddening.
Older mmo like EQ or Shadowbane or FFXI had tons of class that provide great flexibility within the "holy trinity system"
I had so much fun playing a Bard or Warlock in Shadowbane despite on paper they are Dps+support role, but they are so vastly different even though they share similar role in the bigger picture.
One of the problems I see is that the devs have moved away from the PURE trinity role set up more and more .. This in my opinion does cause boredom and laziness.. Even I get bored with AOE killing like WoW became.. One thing I would like to see to bring back those old world dynamics is first, increase the size of group back to 6 or more.. Mobs do need to be more dynamic, and players need to react to that, with proper skills such as CC or off tanking.. Tanking has become to easy in some games that lead to the previously mention AOE dps fest.. Limit taunting to ONE target at a time for example.. With 6 people you only need on pure healer, but a back up hybrid works well too, just a back up off tank for adds.. Trust me, if you get a variety of encounters ranging from 2 to 4 mobs, and having elite mobs in with easy ones, things will get fun..
Beyond the fact that it is Dull and Boring, The people who LOVE it so much are the people I despise. They want all the attention, or all the power / responsibility and if they need a tissue over an issue they pack up and leave for the night, or don't even show up to begin with and dictate your entire evening in game.
This is rather short sighted, not to mention not well thought out. Trinity mechanics (typical MMO mechanics in general) are far less active than twitch based systems. The whole point of that is to allow communication (chat) during game-play. That alone takes away the need for complete 100% awareness. Twitch gaming requires complete attention (awareness) at pretty much all times. Which is why Voice chat is needed for communication.
so thats why there's so much communication going on in league matches. oh but wait, league is pretty much the staple game of twitch games....
Is LOL a game designed around adventuring with friends? It's not? Exactly...
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
This is rather short sighted, not to mention not well thought out. Trinity mechanics (typical MMO mechanics in general) are far less active than twitch based systems. The whole point of that is to allow communication (chat) during game-play. That alone takes away the need for complete 100% awareness. Twitch gaming requires complete attention (awareness) at pretty much all times. Which is why Voice chat is needed for communication.
so thats why there's so much communication going on in league matches. oh but wait, league is pretty much the staple game of twitch games....
Is LOL a game designed around adventuring with friends? It's not? Exactly...
your point? i believe what i quoted said trinity mechanics are far less active than twitch based games and the reason given for that was so that communication (chat) could take place during game-play, but the exact same thing happens in pure twitch games aka LOL.
What does LOL not being a game designed around adventuring with friends have to do with anything?
Or were you wanting to purposefully make a fool of yourself?
Honestly, the main issue devs have with the trinity system isn't in making it challenging. It's actually a very simple system to design around.
The difficult comes in trying to make tanks & healers fun enough that more people play them, without making them completely imbalanced. This is something DAoC & WAR tried to do, but ran into lots of balancing outcries as a result.
That's essentially the main issue that is causing Dev's to try out other mechanics. The trinity is simple & easy to design around, the problem is most gamers don't enjoy tanking or healing enough to play them regularly. As a result, this creates a huge population imbalance between the 3 roles, and everyone suffers as a result. If it wasn't so difficult to find tanks & healers in these games, or the content wasn't as reliant on having those roles, it wouldn't be as big of an issue.
while tank and healers are less played , that are less played are far from true.... the problem with tanks is that endgame sucks for tanks, u need more gear than any1 , u need to know every encounter , after that u need to find a spot in a raid...GL with that, there are lots of tanks in endgame for the "need" , in all mmorpgs i played ppl fighted over tank spots, why? only 1 or 2 avaliable.
a raid of 10 , 20 , 40 will need how many tanks? always 1-2 ,maxi have seen 4 in some encounters but next boss u gonna need to go DPS because the boss only needs 2 tanks.
So why level a tank ? u like tanking but u will able to play tank in endgame content? or is more easy to find a spot as DPS?
Healers are different tho , u are playing the UI more than the game (if the game has boring encounters)
Dps is popular , because numbers, easy to play , fun , gear matters = more dmg (tanks gear = less dmg done to u, healers u healer more wohoo...) farming , and of course PVP , and coolness ( 2h weapons , nukes ....)
is easy to see why dps outnumber tank and healers, if u see the endgame of any mmorpg, the requeriments for raids ect
Aye, there are a lot of factors contributing to this. One of the main ones being that tanks & healers just aren't that practical in a realistic situation. They both tend to be terrible classes on their own. Which is a large part of why so few people tend to play them. It's also a large part of why both class types have been getting DPS modes to compensate for this.
That said, there have been some games (like WAR) which did do a fairly good job of making these classes more interesting, but that still doesn't solve any of the other problems inherent w/ the trinity. Furthermore, while it did make tanks & healers more common, they still weren't nearly as common as DPS classes were.
If you want to see smart AI in action see Guild Wars 1 - the mobs would start attacking the puller, and then would choose other targets based on who was healing, who had less base armor, who had more death penalty, who had lower health, etc.
Currently playing: GW2 Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders
If you want to see smart AI in action see Guild Wars 1 - the mobs would start attacking the puller, and then would choose other targets based on who was healing, who had less base armor, who had more death penalty, who had lower health, etc.
As it should be.. but I don't think we're getting that here in EQN..
Holy trinity is a static combat tactic that is dull and boring.
Healer: press 1
Healer press 1
Healer press 1
Tank: press 1+2+3 to tank
Tank: press 1+2+3 to tank
Rest of the lot: DPS DPS DPS DPS
Except it doesn't have to be that way does it? I mean, One can have any class, no matter it's function do the exact same thing. All they would have to do is add more fucntionality and functionality that is required to be successful. Just add more to do and more for players to attend to..
Your argument doesn't work because you are taking an extreme example and saying this is the only way it can be.
I think the real issue with the trinity is putting together groups that require certain classes to make it successful.
That means people waiting around, shouting for group and then when they finally have one they had better hope that all the members are not only good but responsible and won't afk every 30 seconds. Or will leave 20 minutes into the group and then everyone is out of luck unless they can get another healer/tank, etc.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Originally posted by Gaia_HunterThreat generation and taunting ? smart AI.If you want to see smart AI in action see Guild Wars 1 - the mobs would start attacking the puller, and then would choose other targets based on who was healing, who had less base armor, who had more death penalty, who had lower health, etc.
As it should be.. but I don't think we're getting that here in EQN..
The only thing we really know is that the AI is going to be smarter than what we usually get in MMORPGs. If it can remember everything the players are doing, and then adjust the mobs' behavior based on that, having it hit the person with the weakest looking armor first doesn't seem like a big deal.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
2. Whatever else you can press until 100 blades is off cool down.
(number 2 is optional)
If that's how you played your warrior, no surprise you got bored in GW2... anyone would get bored if he limited himself to use only like 5% of a class potential.
I don't have a warrior. I had the Mesmer who used Time Warp so the 4 warriors could spam 100 blades faster. That was my job, That's why I was there. Sure I did respectable DPS on my own, but Time Warp is why it's 4 Warriors and a Mesmer instead of 5 warriors spamming 100 Blades.
I hate to break it to you, but that 5% of the class's potential ( as you have called it) is all that is needed or wanted. I didn't create that situation, ANET did. I know you don't like it but that's GW2 Warrior for you. And yes, it is boring. Thus we have come back to the original reason for the post. The optimal build for a warrior is to spam 100 blades in a 100% full Zerker glass cannon gear with a build that is meant to optimize 1 single ability.
As long as a game contains the following functions
Attract mob
Heal other
Damage mob
in some form or another, the trinity, or at least the possibility of the trinity is present. Look at Ryzom. It is possibly the MMORPG that is least reliant on the trinity, but it is still there and functional. Each class can have a variety of self-heal abilities to supplement the healer's role in a group.
The only real way to 'break' this dynamic is to remove one of these 3 functions. If a game did not include a magical ability to heal (yourself or others) in a short period of time, the 'trinity' roles of tank, healer, dps couldn't exist in the game. Such a game would be far more 'real world'. The healer role might be replaced by a medic role, who, much like in the modern army, would rush to aid injured people and move them out of the direct line of combat and into the rear areas where they could go to the hospital. (Removing the healer role would also make combat a much more hazardous undertaking).
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
In my opinion the holy trinity holds requirements in certain types of games. By removing the holy trinity you need to include new ways to mitigate damage and potentially dodge the blow all together. I do like the dodge system that Never winter used. each class having its own way to dodge, however they placed the holy trinity in as well. It comes down to what you really want to be doing in your class. Becoming a better player, or leveling up your avatar. Holy Trinity for the leveling system, Dodge and Block( or system i haven't seen or tried yet) for better player.
The problem with this:
Dodge and Block: This all comes down to the skill of the player and will usually focus PvP combat. However this is still entirely possible to use in a PVE environment. If your not good with timing your gonna be the weakest link in the party and if your name gets out that your bad early. you can kiss your gaming experience goodbye even if you do get the practice in and get better.
Holy trinity: After the years of MMO gaming we have this down to a fine art, mainly because its the most simple system in gaming today. that is the problem with the trinity, its easy and easy things tend to get boring to most people (why you see a lot of HT hate on the forums).
Now i have no problem with either style however in order to do one correctly you need to work it well. For dodge and block i would get rid of levels however use a Stat buy system and have you get the points from kills. While holy trinity, we know exactly how that one works correctly.
Because i can. I'm Hopeful For Every Game, Until the Fan Boys Attack My Games. Then the Knives Come Out. Logic every gamers worst enemy.
Damage dealers are against the trinity, because they have to wait long for group invite, while tanks, healers and supporters usually don't have to. So they (damage dealers) want to force everyone to be a damage dealer, to make it even.
This is wrong, there are plenty of games that focus on team play that don't have any type of trinity system. FPSs such as Halo 2, Team fortress, and Counterstrike have always had a team focus. Why do you need to have the developers dictate how your team mechanics should work?
Originally posted by Sovrath Originally posted by GeezerGamerLet's look at this from a different perspective. Static and Boring vs. Dynamic and Exciting Combat has little to do with Trinity vs Non-Trinity Combat
Well said and my point exactly.
The combat itself isn't the only thing to consider, though it is really important. Trinity based combat mechanics can lead to some social issues that don't otherwise exist.
If playing a tank class is hard, or if it comes with some downsides over playing a 'cool' class, then there are doing to be fewer tanks, possibly not enough to go around. This makes tanks important, but it also puts a lot of people out because there are not enough of them. It gets even worse when you start needing good tanks. The same thing could be said for healers and dps, though there never seems to be a shortage of dps, so finding good dps is a lot easier. Blizzard has tried to counter this by adding new classes that can tank, and that are 'cool', but also with the LFG tool. The short comings in the social side of trinity combat are one of the factors driving things that a lot of people consider anti-social. There is no good solution, so SOE is avoiding a lot of aggravation by allowing players to play the way they want.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Originally posted by Lano88 This is wrong, there are plenty of games that focus on team play that don't have any type of trinity system. FPSs such as Halo 2, Team fortress, and Counterstrike have always had a team focus. Why do you need to have the developers dictate how your team mechanics should work?
Add to that UO, AC, EVE, and Puzzle Pirates.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Two reasons. First people who play mmorpgs are no longer only rpg players, but many are gamers who just want a game that is easy to play and get in and out of fast. Second people are mistakenly under the impression that anything new will fix all things they don't like, holy trinity is old and therefore anything new must be the solution.
Also WoW simplified and created the holy trinity by taking away all other kinds of playstyles and roles that were in mmorpg games before WoW, and since WoW has become the "mmorpg standard", gamers aswell as developers tune into that limited holy trinity thinking. Everyone is tiered of WoW and wants something else, so holy trinity or rather character roles has been made the scapegoat for every problem mmorpg games has and especially all the various (and diverse) things people don't like about WoW.
Holy trinity is not the solution because it is a simplified model of what a rpg games should be, but removing roles altogether makes a game move away from the definition of what a mmo_R_P_g is. It can still be a good game, but IMO it should not be labelled a mmorpg. Role Playing (RP) in mmoRPg stands for playing a ROLE in a massive multiplayer online game, and playing a role is using your characters specific abilities (ROLE) and others using their specific abilites (ROLE) to do stuff characters with the same abilities (ROLES) would not be able to alone. A baker alone can make bread, but a baker & butcher & farmer & cook can make a sandwich, each got a role.
Comments
Honestly, the main issue devs have with the trinity system isn't in making it challenging. It's actually a very simple system to design around.
The difficult comes in trying to make tanks & healers fun enough that more people play them, without making them completely imbalanced. This is something DAoC & WAR tried to do, but ran into lots of balancing outcries as a result.
That's essentially the main issue that is causing Dev's to try out other mechanics. The trinity is simple & easy to design around, the problem is most gamers don't enjoy tanking or healing enough to play them regularly. As a result, this creates a huge population imbalance between the 3 roles, and everyone suffers as a result. If it wasn't so difficult to find tanks & healers in these games, or the content wasn't as reliant on having those roles, it wouldn't be as big of an issue.
Lets take note of this on August 6th, 2013...... Since EQN will NOT have instancing, therefore ALL combat will be open world.. There will not be any Zerg'ing or Steamrolling over mobs..... Right? I want to mark this day down as it will live in infamy as the day trinity dies..
while tank and healers are less played , that are less played are far from true.... the problem with tanks is that endgame sucks for tanks, u need more gear than any1 , u need to know every encounter , after that u need to find a spot in a raid...GL with that, there are lots of tanks in endgame for the "need" , in all mmorpgs i played ppl fighted over tank spots, why? only 1 or 2 avaliable.
a raid of 10 , 20 , 40 will need how many tanks? always 1-2 ,maxi have seen 4 in some encounters but next boss u gonna need to go DPS because the boss only needs 2 tanks.
So why level a tank ? u like tanking but u will able to play tank in endgame content? or is more easy to find a spot as DPS?
Healers are different tho , u are playing the UI more than the game (if the game has boring encounters)
Dps is popular , because numbers, easy to play , fun , gear matters = more dmg (tanks gear = less dmg done to u, healers u healer more wohoo...) farming , and of course PVP , and coolness ( 2h weapons , nukes ....)
is easy to see why dps outnumber tank and healers, if u see the endgame of any mmorpg, the requeriments for raids ect
The role of CC and support has been diminishing so much in the MMO genre it is saddening.
Older mmo like EQ or Shadowbane or FFXI had tons of class that provide great flexibility within the "holy trinity system"
I had so much fun playing a Bard or Warlock in Shadowbane despite on paper they are Dps+support role, but they are so vastly different even though they share similar role in the bigger picture.
Beyond the fact that it is Dull and Boring, The people who LOVE it so much are the people I despise. They want all the attention, or all the power / responsibility and if they need a tissue over an issue they pack up and leave for the night, or don't even show up to begin with and dictate your entire evening in game.
Done with it.
if all mobs were as complex as TOC champs were in WoW, i doubt we'd be having any complaints at all about trinity being stale.
the mob behavior is not a result of trinity system, its a result of devs dumbing down the game more and more.
Be the Ultimate Ninja! Play Billy Vs. SNAKEMAN today!
Is LOL a game designed around adventuring with friends? It's not? Exactly...
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
your point? i believe what i quoted said trinity mechanics are far less active than twitch based games and the reason given for that was so that communication (chat) could take place during game-play, but the exact same thing happens in pure twitch games aka LOL.
What does LOL not being a game designed around adventuring with friends have to do with anything?
Or were you wanting to purposefully make a fool of yourself?
Be the Ultimate Ninja! Play Billy Vs. SNAKEMAN today!
Aye, there are a lot of factors contributing to this. One of the main ones being that tanks & healers just aren't that practical in a realistic situation. They both tend to be terrible classes on their own. Which is a large part of why so few people tend to play them. It's also a large part of why both class types have been getting DPS modes to compensate for this.
That said, there have been some games (like WAR) which did do a fairly good job of making these classes more interesting, but that still doesn't solve any of the other problems inherent w/ the trinity. Furthermore, while it did make tanks & healers more common, they still weren't nearly as common as DPS classes were.
Threat generation and taunting ≠ smart AI.
If you want to see smart AI in action see Guild Wars 1 - the mobs would start attacking the puller, and then would choose other targets based on who was healing, who had less base armor, who had more death penalty, who had lower health, etc.
Currently playing: GW2
Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders
As it should be.. but I don't think we're getting that here in EQN..
Personally, I'm not "against" the holy trinity. I just don't want it in EQN because:
(1) I want something different.
(2) Trinity dependencies don't make a lot of sense in a game powered by a wise AI.
(3) I like the flexibility multi-classing affords, mostly for my own game play because I despise leveling alts.
It seems like most of the complaints are coming from those who want to preserve trinity structures. There are tons of games already that provide this.
Except it doesn't have to be that way does it? I mean, One can have any class, no matter it's function do the exact same thing. All they would have to do is add more fucntionality and functionality that is required to be successful. Just add more to do and more for players to attend to..
Your argument doesn't work because you are taking an extreme example and saying this is the only way it can be.
I think the real issue with the trinity is putting together groups that require certain classes to make it successful.
That means people waiting around, shouting for group and then when they finally have one they had better hope that all the members are not only good but responsible and won't afk every 30 seconds. Or will leave 20 minutes into the group and then everyone is out of luck unless they can get another healer/tank, etc.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
GW2 Warrior rotation:
1. 100 Blades
2. Whatever else you can press until 100 blades is off cool down.
(number 2 is optional)
That's much better right?
Let's look at this from a different perspective. Static and Boring vs. Dynamic and Exciting Combat has little to do with Trinity vs Non-Trinity Combat
Well said and my point exactly.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
The only thing we really know is that the AI is going to be smarter than what we usually get in MMORPGs. If it can remember everything the players are doing, and then adjust the mobs' behavior based on that, having it hit the person with the weakest looking armor first doesn't seem like a big deal.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
I don't have a warrior. I had the Mesmer who used Time Warp so the 4 warriors could spam 100 blades faster. That was my job, That's why I was there. Sure I did respectable DPS on my own, but Time Warp is why it's 4 Warriors and a Mesmer instead of 5 warriors spamming 100 Blades.
I hate to break it to you, but that 5% of the class's potential ( as you have called it) is all that is needed or wanted. I didn't create that situation, ANET did. I know you don't like it but that's GW2 Warrior for you. And yes, it is boring. Thus we have come back to the original reason for the post. The optimal build for a warrior is to spam 100 blades in a 100% full Zerker glass cannon gear with a build that is meant to optimize 1 single ability.
As long as a game contains the following functions
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
In my opinion the holy trinity holds requirements in certain types of games. By removing the holy trinity you need to include new ways to mitigate damage and potentially dodge the blow all together. I do like the dodge system that Never winter used. each class having its own way to dodge, however they placed the holy trinity in as well. It comes down to what you really want to be doing in your class. Becoming a better player, or leveling up your avatar. Holy Trinity for the leveling system, Dodge and Block( or system i haven't seen or tried yet) for better player.
The problem with this:
Dodge and Block: This all comes down to the skill of the player and will usually focus PvP combat. However this is still entirely possible to use in a PVE environment. If your not good with timing your gonna be the weakest link in the party and if your name gets out that your bad early. you can kiss your gaming experience goodbye even if you do get the practice in and get better.
Holy trinity: After the years of MMO gaming we have this down to a fine art, mainly because its the most simple system in gaming today. that is the problem with the trinity, its easy and easy things tend to get boring to most people (why you see a lot of HT hate on the forums).
Now i have no problem with either style however in order to do one correctly you need to work it well. For dodge and block i would get rid of levels however use a Stat buy system and have you get the points from kills. While holy trinity, we know exactly how that one works correctly.
Because i can.
I'm Hopeful For Every Game, Until the Fan Boys Attack My Games. Then the Knives Come Out.
Logic every gamers worst enemy.
Damage dealers are against the trinity, because they have to wait long for group invite, while tanks, healers and supporters usually don't have to. So they (damage dealers) want to force everyone to be a damage dealer, to make it even.
I played GW2 and I'm definitely for the trinity.
The combat itself isn't the only thing to consider, though it is really important. Trinity based combat mechanics can lead to some social issues that don't otherwise exist.
If playing a tank class is hard, or if it comes with some downsides over playing a 'cool' class, then there are doing to be fewer tanks, possibly not enough to go around. This makes tanks important, but it also puts a lot of people out because there are not enough of them. It gets even worse when you start needing good tanks. The same thing could be said for healers and dps, though there never seems to be a shortage of dps, so finding good dps is a lot easier. Blizzard has tried to counter this by adding new classes that can tank, and that are 'cool', but also with the LFG tool. The short comings in the social side of trinity combat are one of the factors driving things that a lot of people consider anti-social. There is no good solution, so SOE is avoiding a lot of aggravation by allowing players to play the way they want.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Add to that UO, AC, EVE, and Puzzle Pirates.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Two reasons. First people who play mmorpgs are no longer only rpg players, but many are gamers who just want a game that is easy to play and get in and out of fast. Second people are mistakenly under the impression that anything new will fix all things they don't like, holy trinity is old and therefore anything new must be the solution.
Also WoW simplified and created the holy trinity by taking away all other kinds of playstyles and roles that were in mmorpg games before WoW, and since WoW has become the "mmorpg standard", gamers aswell as developers tune into that limited holy trinity thinking. Everyone is tiered of WoW and wants something else, so holy trinity or rather character roles has been made the scapegoat for every problem mmorpg games has and especially all the various (and diverse) things people don't like about WoW.
Holy trinity is not the solution because it is a simplified model of what a rpg games should be, but removing roles altogether makes a game move away from the definition of what a mmo_R_P_g is. It can still be a good game, but IMO it should not be labelled a mmorpg. Role Playing (RP) in mmoRPg stands for playing a ROLE in a massive multiplayer online game, and playing a role is using your characters specific abilities (ROLE) and others using their specific abilites (ROLE) to do stuff characters with the same abilities (ROLES) would not be able to alone. A baker alone can make bread, but a baker & butcher & farmer & cook can make a sandwich, each got a role.
"I am my connectome" https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HA7GwKXfJB0