Originally posted by Knotwood Originally posted by Foomerang
I also feel that people who enjoy raiding and other activities besides crafting should not have to craft in order to get the best gear (or buy the best gear from crafters). I think some people get caught up in the whole "I dont want to have to raid for the best gear", without thinking about the fact that the opposite is also true.
For many years, solo crafters had to depend on Raiders and Guilds as their only means to craft best gear and had to pay high prices for raid crafting drops which were the same price of selling the fully crafted piece of gear, having no profit from it, making crafting completely worhless to a solo player who crafts.
Most raiders have guilds which have many crafters who do that work for the raider for free. If you look at past games like EQ2, the price of a crafting item drop is the same price as the gear itself when sold by a crafter, this system is set up all leaning in the Raiders ONLY favor. Its only fair that Solo Crafters be allowed to invest their time and work into end game gear as if they were raiding and playing like your playstyle. Shouldn't they be rewarded for the same amount of time and hard work you have into the game?
Different game systems. Different rewards. I'm not saying the old way was good, but I'm also not saying we should swing to the polar opposite for "payback" so to speak. I think each system has its own set of relevant rewards in place right now. Raiding should reward the best gear in the game (which in my previous post I also stated that even that gear is still not the best until a crafter augments it). Crafting literally dominates every other aspect of an mmo besides top tier gear. Yet people still complain because they cant do that too. Its kind of obnoxious.
Like I said, I've been playing mmos for a couple decades now, and always as a crafter gatherer first before combat. I make 99% of everything in the game except for raid gear which still needs my help to make it truly the best. I think it is selfish for people to complain about that 1%. If you are playing a game where top end gear is the only thing that matters, then that is a problem with the game as a whole, not the ability to craft said top end gear. MMOs that diversify their game systems and allow many outlets for crafting to be viable are doing it right.
If you could craft best in slot gear in WoW, it still wouldnt change the fact that crafting in WoW is incredibly dull. All that would change is that people would feel like they had to do stuff they did not enjoy in order to have the best gear. That is poor game design.
Diferant systems. Different rewards.
How about a WINNING formula for crafting, which will never cause someone to have CRAFTING as a Reason to quite a game.
Max Crafter + Their Play Style = Best Gear in Game.
That is a fair system and allows people to play the play style they want and progress, instead of being forced into Play styles they do not like to do which sesms to always be RAIDING. That's all I ask for, is more then just one path to Best END GAME GEAR though CRAFTING.
Freedom of choice in play styles as a crafter. Some like solo play, so let the solo players have a way to get best gear in game for crafting though solo play but take a lot longer then raiding and grouping. Some like group dungeon play, so let those crafters who like that playstyle be able to get best gear in game though that style but longer then raiding. Some like raiding play style, so let the raiding crafters who like that playstyle also get best gear in game though that playstyle.
In the end, This the ONLY fair system to have for CRAFTING. To allow ANYONE of ANY playstyle to be able to CHOOSE their Play Style to get BEST GEAR in game?
Can I get an AMEN fellow Solo Playing & Group Playing Crafters?
Originally posted by Knotwood Originally posted by FoomerangOriginally posted by KnotwoodOriginally posted by FoomerangI also feel that people who enjoy raiding and other activities besides crafting should not have to craft in order to get the best gear (or buy the best gear from crafters). I think some people get caught up in the whole "I dont want to have to raid for the best gear", without thinking about the fact that the opposite is also true.
For many years, solo crafters had to depend on Raiders and Guilds as their only means to craft best gear and had to pay high prices for raid crafting drops which were the same price of selling the fully crafted piece of gear, having no profit from it, making crafting completely worhless to a solo player who crafts. Most raiders have guilds which have many crafters who do that work for the raider for free. If you look at past games like EQ2, the price of a crafting item drop is the same price as the gear itself when sold by a crafter, this system is set up all leaning in the Raiders ONLY favor. Its only fair that Solo Crafters be allowed to invest their time and work into end game gear as if they were raiding and playing like your playstyle. Shouldn't they be rewarded for the same amount of time and hard work you have into the game?Different game systems. Different rewards. I'm not saying the old way was good, but I'm also not saying we should swing to the polar opposite for "payback" so to speak. I think each system has its own set of relevant rewards in place right now. Raiding should reward the best gear in the game (which in my previous post I also stated that even that gear is still not the best until a crafter augments it). Crafting literally dominates every other aspect of an mmo besides top tier gear. Yet people still complain because they cant do that too. Its kind of obnoxious.Like I said, I've been playing mmos for a couple decades now, and always as a crafter gatherer first before combat. I make 99% of everything in the game except for raid gear which still needs my help to make it truly the best. I think it is selfish for people to complain about that 1%. If you are playing a game where top end gear is the only thing that matters, then that is a problem with the game as a whole, not the ability to craft said top end gear. MMOs that diversify their game systems and allow many outlets for crafting to be viable are doing it right.If you could craft best in slot gear in WoW, it still wouldnt change the fact that crafting in WoW is incredibly dull. All that would change is that people would feel like they had to do stuff they did not enjoy in order to have the best gear. That is poor game design.
Diferant systems. Different rewards.
How about a WINNING formula for crafting, which will never cause someone to have CRAFTING as a Reason to quite a game.
Max Crafter + Their Play Style = Best Gear in Game.
That is a fair system and allows people to play the play style they want and progress, instead of being forced into Play styles they do not like to do which sesms to always be RAIDING. That's all I ask for, is more then just one path to Best END GAME GEAR though CRAFTING.
Freedom of choice in play styles as a crafter. Some like solo play, so let the solo players have a way to get best gear in game for crafting though solo play but take a lot longer then raiding and grouping. Some like group dungeon play, so let those crafters who like that playstyle be able to get best gear in game though that style but longer then raiding. Some like raiding play style, so let the raiding crafters who like that playstyle also get best gear in game though that playstyle.
In the end, This the ONLY fair way to have for CRAFTING. To allow ANYONE of ANY playstyle to be able to CHOOSE their Play Style to get BEST GEAR in game?
Can I get an AMEN fellow Solo Playing & Group Playing Crafters?
AMEN! The small asterisk to what you are saying is that people are not satisfied unless: Max Crafter + Their Play Style = Best Gear in Game *exclusively. There is no live and let live. They dont want equal gear to raid drops, they want the best to be made by crafters bar none. I don't agree with that. I think that raiders deserve to play hard and get rewarded with more than a crafting component. Just like crafters deserve to make things that people want to buy. And they do! In almost every mmo that is out, crafters are able to make items that people want. But the hangup is when there is this tier of gear that raiders get that has better stats than their best effort and they suddenly feel useless. Nevermind, the food. the drinks, the potions, the enchants, the cosmetics, the furniture, the mounts, or all the gear that is perfectly capable for the other 90% of the game's content.
Originally posted by KnotwoodOriginally posted by Foomerang
I also feel that people who enjoy raiding and other activities besides crafting should not have to craft in order to get the best gear (or buy the best gear from crafters). I think some people get caught up in the whole "I dont want to have to raid for the best gear", without thinking about the fact that the opposite is also true.
For many years, solo crafters had to depend on Raiders and Guilds as their only means to craft best gear and had to pay high prices for raid crafting drops which were the same price of selling the fully crafted piece of gear, having no profit from it, making crafting completely worhless to a solo player who crafts. Most raiders have guilds which have many crafters who do that work for the raider for free. If you look at past games like EQ2, the price of a crafting item drop is the same price as the gear itself when sold by a crafter, this system is set up all leaning in the Raiders ONLY favor. Its only fair that Solo Crafters be allowed to invest their time and work into end game gear as if they were raiding and playing like your playstyle. Shouldn't they be rewarded for the same amount of time and hard work you have into the game?
Different game systems. Different rewards. I'm not saying the old way was good, but I'm also not saying we should swing to the polar opposite for "payback" so to speak. I think each system has its own set of relevant rewards in place right now. Raiding should reward the best gear in the game (which in my previous post I also stated that even that gear is still not the best until a crafter augments it). Crafting literally dominates every other aspect of an mmo besides top tier gear. Yet people still complain because they cant do that too. Its kind of obnoxious.Like I said, I've been playing mmos for a couple decades now, and always as a crafter gatherer first before combat. I make 99% of everything in the game except for raid gear which still needs my help to make it truly the best. I think it is selfish for people to complain about that 1%. If you are playing a game where top end gear is the only thing that matters, then that is a problem with the game as a whole, not the ability to craft said top end gear. MMOs that diversify their game systems and allow many outlets for crafting to be viable are doing it right.If you could craft best in slot gear in WoW, it still wouldnt change the fact that crafting in WoW is incredibly dull. All that would change is that people would feel like they had to do stuff they did not enjoy in order to have the best gear. That is poor game design.
Diferant systems. Different rewards.
How about a WINNING formula for crafting, which will never cause someone to have CRAFTING as a Reason to quite a game.
Max Crafter + Their Play Style = Best Gear in Game.
That is a fair system and allows people to play the play style they want and progress, instead of being forced into Play styles they do not like to do which sesms to always be RAIDING. That's all I ask for, is more then just one path to Best END GAME GEAR though CRAFTING.
Freedom of choice in play styles as a crafter. Some like solo play, so let the solo players have a way to get best gear in game for crafting though solo play but take a lot longer then raiding and grouping. Some like group dungeon play, so let those crafters who like that playstyle be able to get best gear in game though that style but longer then raiding. Some like raiding play style, so let the raiding crafters who like that playstyle also get best gear in game though that playstyle.
In the end, This the ONLY fair way to have for CRAFTING. To allow ANYONE of ANY playstyle to be able to CHOOSE their Play Style to get BEST GEAR in game?
Can I get an AMEN fellow Solo Playing & Group Playing Crafters?
AMEN! The small asterisk to what you are saying is that people are not satisfied unless: Max Crafter + Their Play Style = Best Gear in Game *exclusively. There is no live and let live. They dont want equal gear to raid drops, they want the best to be made by crafters bar none. I don't agree with that. I think that raiders deserve to play hard and get rewarded with more than a crafting component. Just like crafters deserve to make things that people want to buy. And they do! In almost every mmo that is out, crafters are able to make items that people want. But the hangup is when there is this tier of gear that raiders get that has better stats than their best effort and they suddenly feel useless. Nevermind, the food. the drinks, the potions, the enchants, the cosmetics, the furniture, the mounts, or all the gear that is perfectly capable for the other 90% of the game's content.
I see what your trying to say here, your saying you have to raid, AND get a crafter to make it better for you and that is unfair. So let me put this in context if what you are perceiving as an unfair system.
Raider + who doesn't have crafting who has to get a crafter who will do upragdes for free by having to press a button for them (Mority of crafter community) and takes only a few mins of shouting or waiting for a crafting buddy to log onto your raid guild, somehow makes it unfair.
Originally posted by Knotwood I see what your trying to say here, your saying you have to raid, AND get a crafter to make it better for you and that is unfair. So let me put this in context if what i'm trying to convey as a fair system compared to what you precieve as a fail system.
Im sorry but that is not what I am saying and I do not feel that way about it.
Originally posted by Knotwood I see what your trying to say here, your saying you have to raid, AND get a crafter to make it better for you and that is unfair. So let me put this in context if what i'm trying to convey as a fair system compared to what you precieve as a fail system.
Im sorry but that is not what I am saying and I do not feel that way about it.
Are you then saying that CRAFTING should not be treated as a Major System equal to RAIDING as far as obtaining Best Gear in Game?
because we have playstyles which have an hierarchy
I bet it will still require you to Raid to get the mats for any top gear .. I am guessing at the best gear will require No drop mats from end game raids
I bet it will still require you to Raid to get the mats for any top gear .. I am guessing at the best gear will require No drop mats from end game raids
Which then would get rid of the option to use any playstyle you wanted in progression.
It ultimately would mean that you must ONLY raid for best gear in game. Which makes crafting, solo play, and dungeon play worthless then.
I should just RAID and then get my end game gear and forget about ever touching crafting, because many crafters out there will upgrade for free. Should just stand in town doing nothing till a raid happens? Shouldn't run dungeons because theres better ger in raiding?
If a game ever truly wants to be successful in the long term, it must have more then just ONE type of play style for end game. It must take advantage of all of its Game systems in end game progression, so people never feel TRAPPED by only one type of play style they might not enjoy.
Crafters can make the best items.. so I hear. BUT, the ingredients required for the #1 items will be just as difficult to obtain.. so it's like.. you won't be making the best items without running dungeons/raids so there's no difference really. Unless you buy/trade for the mats.
I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.
Originally posted by Knotwood Originally posted by FoomerangOriginally posted by Knotwood I see what your trying to say here, your saying you have to raid, AND get a crafter to make it better for you and that is unfair. So let me put this in context if what i'm trying to convey as a fair system compared to what you precieve as a fail system.
Im sorry but that is not what I am saying and I do not feel that way about it.Are you then saying that CRAFTING should not be treated as a Major System equal to RAIDING as far as obtaining Best Gear in Game?
because we have playstyles which have an hierarchy
Solo (Minor)
grouping (Lesser)
Raiding (Major)
Then we have Game systems.
Crafting
Raiding
Dungeons
Questing
Im saying that crafting is as important as combat. You are breaking combat into many other sub systems and calling them all equal while at the same time making crafting an all encompassing singular system which it is not.
I also feel that people who enjoy raiding and other activities besides crafting should not have to craft in order to get the best gear (or buy the best gear from crafters). I think some people get caught up in the whole "I dont want to have to raid for the best gear", without thinking about the fact that the opposite is also true.
I don't see why there is an issue with buying from crafters.
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Originally posted by Sovrath Originally posted by Foomerang I also feel that people who enjoy raiding and other activities besides crafting should not have to craft in order to get the best gear (or buy the best gear from crafters). I think some people get caught up in the whole "I dont want to have to raid for the best gear", without thinking about the fact that the opposite is also true.
I don't see why there is an issue with buying from crafters.
Im saying that crafting is as important as combat.
That may be right, but while it's as important as combat, it's nowhere as challenging. For this reason, if crafting is to make better items than are available via combat, it should include a challenge equivalent or higher than combat. Since ESO's crafting system in itself doesn't provide such a challenge, what the developers have rightfully done is included the needed "challenge" in the obtainment of materials. The end result being that crafting is important enough to make the best items in the game without giving people a way to bypass or triviliaze the game's challenges.
You're the blacksmith. If i bring you dragon scales to make me the world's greatest armor, why does it matter to you where or how i got those dragon scales? I killed a dragon, yet to benefit, i need YOU - the blacksmith - to forge my dragonscale armor. We both accomplish great feats - i kill dragon, you make great armor out of said dragon (and get paid).
Cooperation and interdependence - that's what it's all about . I do what i do - kill dragons, while you do what you do - make me armor out of the scales and get paid for it. And if one of us is dedicated enough to do BOTH, well, then he is due to the biggest reward of all.
"Id rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity."
- Raph Koster
Tried: AO,EQ,EQ2,DAoC,SWG,AA,SB,HZ,CoX,PS,GA,TR,IV,GnH,EVE, PP,DnL,WAR,MxO,SWG,FE,VG,AoC,DDO,LoTRO,Rift,TOR,Aion,Tera,TSW,GW2,DCUO,CO,STO Favourites: AO,SWG,EVE,TR,LoTRO,TSW,EQ2, Firefall Currently Playing: ESO
Originally posted by Foomerang I also feel that people who enjoy raiding and other activities besides crafting should not have to craft in order to get the best gear (or buy the best gear from crafters). I think some people get caught up in the whole "I dont want to have to raid for the best gear", without thinking about the fact that the opposite is also true.
I don't see why there is an issue with buying from crafters.
i dont either.
You're saying that there is should be no issue with adventurers buying best gear from crafters?
So, by extension, there should be no issues with crafters buying best components from adventurers either, right?
Which would yield an interdependent system where both adventurers and crafters need something form one another and can each produce something the other cannot (on their own).
"Id rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity."
- Raph Koster
Tried: AO,EQ,EQ2,DAoC,SWG,AA,SB,HZ,CoX,PS,GA,TR,IV,GnH,EVE, PP,DnL,WAR,MxO,SWG,FE,VG,AoC,DDO,LoTRO,Rift,TOR,Aion,Tera,TSW,GW2,DCUO,CO,STO Favourites: AO,SWG,EVE,TR,LoTRO,TSW,EQ2, Firefall Currently Playing: ESO
Im saying that crafting is as important as combat.
That may be right, but while it's as important as combat, it's nowhere as challenging. For this reason, if crafting is to make better items than are available via combat, it should include a challenge equivalent or higher than combat. Since ESO's crafting system in itself doesn't provide such a challenge, what the developers have rightfully done is included the needed "challenge" in the obtainment of materials. The end result being that crafting is important enough to make the best items in the game without giving people a way to bypass or triviliaze the game's challenges.
You're the blacksmith. If i bring you dragon scales to make me the world's greatest armor, why does it matter to you where or how i got those dragon scales? I killed a dragon, yet to benefit, i need YOU - the blacksmith - to forge my dragonscale armor. We both accomplish great feats - i kill dragon, you make great armor out of said dragon (and get paid).
Cooperation and interdependence - that's what it's all about . I do what i do - kill dragons, while you do what you do - make me armor out of the scales and get paid for it. And if one of us is dedicated enough to do BOTH, well, then he is due to the biggest reward of all.
This almost sounds if there might be an in-game community. Say it isn't so.
Im saying that crafting is as important as combat.
That may be right, but while it's as important as combat, it's nowhere as challenging. For this reason, if crafting is to make better items than are available via combat, it should include a challenge equivalent or higher than combat. Since ESO's crafting system in itself doesn't provide such a challenge, what the developers have rightfully done is included the needed "challenge" in the obtainment of materials. The end result being that crafting is important enough to make the best items in the game without giving people a way to bypass or triviliaze the game's challenges.
You're the blacksmith. If i bring you dragon scales to make me the world's greatest armor, why does it matter to you where or how i got those dragon scales? I killed a dragon, yet to benefit, i need YOU - the blacksmith - to forge my dragonscale armor. We both accomplish great feats - i kill dragon, you make great armor out of said dragon (and get paid).
Cooperation and interdependence - that's what it's all about . I do what i do - kill dragons, while you do what you do - make me armor out of the scales and get paid for it. And if one of us is dedicated enough to do BOTH, well, then he is due to the biggest reward of all.
This almost sounds if there might be an in-game community. Say it isn't so.
Originally posted by arieste Originally posted by FoomerangIm saying that crafting is as important as combat.
That may be right, but while it's as important as combat, it's nowhere as challenging. For this reason, if crafting is to make better items than are available via combat, it should include a challenge equivalent or higher than combat. Since ESO's crafting system in itself doesn't provide such a challenge, what the developers have rightfully done is included the needed "challenge" in the obtainment of materials. The end result being that crafting is important enough to make the best items in the game without giving people a way to bypass or triviliaze the game's challenges.
You're the blacksmith. If i bring you dragon scales to make me the world's greatest armor, why does it matter to you where or how i got those dragon scales? I killed a dragon, yet to benefit, i need YOU - the blacksmith - to forge my dragonscale armor. We both accomplish great feats - i kill dragon, you make great armor out of said dragon (and get paid).
Cooperation and interdependence - that's what it's all about . I do what i do - kill dragons, while you do what you do - make me armor out of the scales and get paid for it. And if one of us is dedicated enough to do BOTH, well, then he is due to the biggest reward of all.
Im an in agreement with you. However, challenge is subjective and nearly impossible to quantify especially in an mmo setting. Challenge can be interpreted in many ways, whether its reflexes, planning ahead, pattern memorization, puzzle solving, prediction, the list is nearly infinite. And some people are better at certain types of challenges than other. So when preference comes into play, a dev cannot exactly create all types of challenges for all types of game systems in an mmo.
They have to decide which types of challenges they are going to put into which types of game systems. Good crafting systems tend to get the planning and puzzle solving type challenges while combat gets the reflex and pattern recognition type challenges.
Originally posted by Foomerang I also feel that people who enjoy raiding and other activities besides crafting should not have to craft in order to get the best gear (or buy the best gear from crafters). I think some people get caught up in the whole "I dont want to have to raid for the best gear", without thinking about the fact that the opposite is also true.
I don't see why there is an issue with buying from crafters.
i dont either.
You're saying that there is should be no issue with adventurers buying best gear from crafters?
So, by extension, there should be no issues with crafters buying best components from adventurers either, right?
Which would yield an interdependent system where both adventurers and crafters need something form one another and can each produce something the other cannot (on their own).
If a crafter buys the item from the adventurer, The price always ends up being the price that the crafter sells it for. So how would a system like this be fair?
Interdependant systems for crafting have never worked in games because the crafter does anything more then a button press to make the gear. Resulting in the crafter doing it for free or just charging a few gold/tip for it. How is that interdependent?
Good crafting systems tend to get the planning and puzzle solving type challenges
I would absolutely LOVE If - as you suggest - crafting an item involved solving progressively more difficult puzzles (or puzzle-type challenges). But in ESO it does not. (I skip "planning", not because planning isn't involved, but rather because planning is involved in ALL aspects of playing an MMO, not just crafting).
"Id rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity."
- Raph Koster
Tried: AO,EQ,EQ2,DAoC,SWG,AA,SB,HZ,CoX,PS,GA,TR,IV,GnH,EVE, PP,DnL,WAR,MxO,SWG,FE,VG,AoC,DDO,LoTRO,Rift,TOR,Aion,Tera,TSW,GW2,DCUO,CO,STO Favourites: AO,SWG,EVE,TR,LoTRO,TSW,EQ2, Firefall Currently Playing: ESO
If a crafter buys the item from the adventurer, The price always ends up being the price that the crafter sells it for. So how would a system like this be fair?
That's only if the crafter adds no value or skill to it.
Interdependant systems for crafting have never worked in games because the crafter does anything more then a button press to make the gear. Resulting in the crafter doing it for free or just charging a few gold/tip for it. How is that interdependent?
They worked fine in the games I've played. Of course, it helps when the crafter has to press more than 1 button.
Even in EQ2, where crafting isn't particularly complicated, i can log in now on my crafter, buy a whole bunch of components on broker (which are on sale by adventurers and/or other crafters), out of those components i could craft a bunch of usable items, put them back on sale and make a pile of money. In my experience, the components are ALWAYS cheaper than end product. This is true in EQ2 and was true in both SWG, Firefall and EVE (which had better crafting systems or more robust crafter economies)
"Id rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity."
- Raph Koster
Tried: AO,EQ,EQ2,DAoC,SWG,AA,SB,HZ,CoX,PS,GA,TR,IV,GnH,EVE, PP,DnL,WAR,MxO,SWG,FE,VG,AoC,DDO,LoTRO,Rift,TOR,Aion,Tera,TSW,GW2,DCUO,CO,STO Favourites: AO,SWG,EVE,TR,LoTRO,TSW,EQ2, Firefall Currently Playing: ESO
I'm not a fan of any playstyle having priority on top end gear. I think there should be multiple ways to attain top gear, preferably through several of the most popular methods of progression, be it solo, group, raid, crafting, pvp, exploration....etc.
Originally posted by McSire I doubt they will be able to make the only #1 best gear in game, It'll probably be tied with like top tier gear from Cyrodiil and Adventure zones (raids). But it seems ok I guess.
Crafters can make the gear you get in raids even better
Originally posted by Yamota Wont that make high level loot worthless?
It doesn't have to. Loot drops can remain useful by:
- being upgradeable via crafting
- having different / unique attributes that complement the crafted stuff
- being a good source of components for crafting
Making everyone hostage to crafters for one of if not the core progression of the game.
One can say that it holds everyone hostage to adventurers also. Both would be needed. That's the whole point of creating interdependence (well, that and having a meaningful economy).
"Id rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity."
- Raph Koster
Tried: AO,EQ,EQ2,DAoC,SWG,AA,SB,HZ,CoX,PS,GA,TR,IV,GnH,EVE, PP,DnL,WAR,MxO,SWG,FE,VG,AoC,DDO,LoTRO,Rift,TOR,Aion,Tera,TSW,GW2,DCUO,CO,STO Favourites: AO,SWG,EVE,TR,LoTRO,TSW,EQ2, Firefall Currently Playing: ESO
Comments
Diferant systems. Different rewards.
How about a WINNING formula for crafting, which will never cause someone to have CRAFTING as a Reason to quite a game.
Max Crafter + Their Play Style = Best Gear in Game.
That is a fair system and allows people to play the play style they want and progress, instead of being forced into Play styles they do not like to do which sesms to always be RAIDING. That's all I ask for, is more then just one path to Best END GAME GEAR though CRAFTING.
Freedom of choice in play styles as a crafter. Some like solo play, so let the solo players have a way to get best gear in game for crafting though solo play but take a lot longer then raiding and grouping. Some like group dungeon play, so let those crafters who like that playstyle be able to get best gear in game though that style but longer then raiding. Some like raiding play style, so let the raiding crafters who like that playstyle also get best gear in game though that playstyle.
In the end, This the ONLY fair system to have for CRAFTING. To allow ANYONE of ANY playstyle to be able to CHOOSE their Play Style to get BEST GEAR in game?
Can I get an AMEN fellow Solo Playing & Group Playing Crafters?
Different game systems. Different rewards. I'm not saying the old way was good, but I'm also not saying we should swing to the polar opposite for "payback" so to speak. I think each system has its own set of relevant rewards in place right now. Raiding should reward the best gear in the game (which in my previous post I also stated that even that gear is still not the best until a crafter augments it). Crafting literally dominates every other aspect of an mmo besides top tier gear. Yet people still complain because they cant do that too. Its kind of obnoxious. Like I said, I've been playing mmos for a couple decades now, and always as a crafter gatherer first before combat. I make 99% of everything in the game except for raid gear which still needs my help to make it truly the best. I think it is selfish for people to complain about that 1%. If you are playing a game where top end gear is the only thing that matters, then that is a problem with the game as a whole, not the ability to craft said top end gear. MMOs that diversify their game systems and allow many outlets for crafting to be viable are doing it right. If you could craft best in slot gear in WoW, it still wouldnt change the fact that crafting in WoW is incredibly dull. All that would change is that people would feel like they had to do stuff they did not enjoy in order to have the best gear. That is poor game design.
Diferant systems. Different rewards.
How about a WINNING formula for crafting, which will never cause someone to have CRAFTING as a Reason to quite a game.
Max Crafter + Their Play Style = Best Gear in Game.
That is a fair system and allows people to play the play style they want and progress, instead of being forced into Play styles they do not like to do which sesms to always be RAIDING. That's all I ask for, is more then just one path to Best END GAME GEAR though CRAFTING.
Freedom of choice in play styles as a crafter. Some like solo play, so let the solo players have a way to get best gear in game for crafting though solo play but take a lot longer then raiding and grouping. Some like group dungeon play, so let those crafters who like that playstyle be able to get best gear in game though that style but longer then raiding. Some like raiding play style, so let the raiding crafters who like that playstyle also get best gear in game though that playstyle.
In the end, This the ONLY fair way to have for CRAFTING. To allow ANYONE of ANY playstyle to be able to CHOOSE their Play Style to get BEST GEAR in game?
Can I get an AMEN fellow Solo Playing & Group Playing Crafters?
AMEN! The small asterisk to what you are saying is that people are not satisfied unless: Max Crafter + Their Play Style = Best Gear in Game *exclusively. There is no live and let live. They dont want equal gear to raid drops, they want the best to be made by crafters bar none. I don't agree with that. I think that raiders deserve to play hard and get rewarded with more than a crafting component. Just like crafters deserve to make things that people want to buy. And they do! In almost every mmo that is out, crafters are able to make items that people want. But the hangup is when there is this tier of gear that raiders get that has better stats than their best effort and they suddenly feel useless. Nevermind, the food. the drinks, the potions, the enchants, the cosmetics, the furniture, the mounts, or all the gear that is perfectly capable for the other 90% of the game's content.
I see what your trying to say here, your saying you have to raid, AND get a crafter to make it better for you and that is unfair. So let me put this in context if what you are perceiving as an unfair system.
Raider + who doesn't have crafting who has to get a crafter who will do upragdes for free by having to press a button for them (Mority of crafter community) and takes only a few mins of shouting or waiting for a crafting buddy to log onto your raid guild, somehow makes it unfair.
Im sorry but that is not what I am saying and I do not feel that way about it.
Are you then saying that CRAFTING should not be treated as a Major System equal to RAIDING as far as obtaining Best Gear in Game?
because we have playstyles which have an hierarchy
Solo (Minor)
grouping (Lesser)
Raiding (Major)
Then we have Game systems.
Crafting
Raiding
Dungeons
Questing
I bet it will still require you to Raid to get the mats for any top gear .. I am guessing at the best gear will require No drop mats from end game raids
Which then would get rid of the option to use any playstyle you wanted in progression.
It ultimately would mean that you must ONLY raid for best gear in game. Which makes crafting, solo play, and dungeon play worthless then.
I should just RAID and then get my end game gear and forget about ever touching crafting, because many crafters out there will upgrade for free. Should just stand in town doing nothing till a raid happens? Shouldn't run dungeons because theres better ger in raiding?
If a game ever truly wants to be successful in the long term, it must have more then just ONE type of play style for end game. It must take advantage of all of its Game systems in end game progression, so people never feel TRAPPED by only one type of play style they might not enjoy.
Are you then saying that CRAFTING should not be treated as a Major System equal to RAIDING as far as obtaining Best Gear in Game?
because we have playstyles which have an hierarchy
Solo (Minor)
grouping (Lesser)
Raiding (Major)
Then we have Game systems.
Crafting
Raiding
Dungeons
Questing
Im saying that crafting is as important as combat. You are breaking combat into many other sub systems and calling them all equal while at the same time making crafting an all encompassing singular system which it is not.
I don't see why there is an issue with buying from crafters.
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i dont either.
That may be right, but while it's as important as combat, it's nowhere as challenging. For this reason, if crafting is to make better items than are available via combat, it should include a challenge equivalent or higher than combat. Since ESO's crafting system in itself doesn't provide such a challenge, what the developers have rightfully done is included the needed "challenge" in the obtainment of materials. The end result being that crafting is important enough to make the best items in the game without giving people a way to bypass or triviliaze the game's challenges.
You're the blacksmith. If i bring you dragon scales to make me the world's greatest armor, why does it matter to you where or how i got those dragon scales? I killed a dragon, yet to benefit, i need YOU - the blacksmith - to forge my dragonscale armor. We both accomplish great feats - i kill dragon, you make great armor out of said dragon (and get paid).
Cooperation and interdependence - that's what it's all about . I do what i do - kill dragons, while you do what you do - make me armor out of the scales and get paid for it. And if one of us is dedicated enough to do BOTH, well, then he is due to the biggest reward of all.
"Id rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity."
- Raph Koster
Tried: AO,EQ,EQ2,DAoC,SWG,AA,SB,HZ,CoX,PS,GA,TR,IV,GnH,EVE, PP,DnL,WAR,MxO,SWG,FE,VG,AoC,DDO,LoTRO,Rift,TOR,Aion,Tera,TSW,GW2,DCUO,CO,STO
Favourites: AO,SWG,EVE,TR,LoTRO,TSW,EQ2, Firefall
Currently Playing: ESO
You're saying that there is should be no issue with adventurers buying best gear from crafters?
So, by extension, there should be no issues with crafters buying best components from adventurers either, right?
Which would yield an interdependent system where both adventurers and crafters need something form one another and can each produce something the other cannot (on their own).
"Id rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity."
- Raph Koster
Tried: AO,EQ,EQ2,DAoC,SWG,AA,SB,HZ,CoX,PS,GA,TR,IV,GnH,EVE, PP,DnL,WAR,MxO,SWG,FE,VG,AoC,DDO,LoTRO,Rift,TOR,Aion,Tera,TSW,GW2,DCUO,CO,STO
Favourites: AO,SWG,EVE,TR,LoTRO,TSW,EQ2, Firefall
Currently Playing: ESO
This almost sounds if there might be an in-game community. Say it isn't so.
*GASP*
You're the blacksmith. If i bring you dragon scales to make me the world's greatest armor, why does it matter to you where or how i got those dragon scales? I killed a dragon, yet to benefit, i need YOU - the blacksmith - to forge my dragonscale armor. We both accomplish great feats - i kill dragon, you make great armor out of said dragon (and get paid).
Cooperation and interdependence - that's what it's all about . I do what i do - kill dragons, while you do what you do - make me armor out of the scales and get paid for it. And if one of us is dedicated enough to do BOTH, well, then he is due to the biggest reward of all.
Im an in agreement with you. However, challenge is subjective and nearly impossible to quantify especially in an mmo setting. Challenge can be interpreted in many ways, whether its reflexes, planning ahead, pattern memorization, puzzle solving, prediction, the list is nearly infinite. And some people are better at certain types of challenges than other. So when preference comes into play, a dev cannot exactly create all types of challenges for all types of game systems in an mmo.
They have to decide which types of challenges they are going to put into which types of game systems. Good crafting systems tend to get the planning and puzzle solving type challenges while combat gets the reflex and pattern recognition type challenges.
If a crafter buys the item from the adventurer, The price always ends up being the price that the crafter sells it for. So how would a system like this be fair?
Interdependant systems for crafting have never worked in games because the crafter does anything more then a button press to make the gear. Resulting in the crafter doing it for free or just charging a few gold/tip for it. How is that interdependent?
I would absolutely LOVE If - as you suggest - crafting an item involved solving progressively more difficult puzzles (or puzzle-type challenges). But in ESO it does not. (I skip "planning", not because planning isn't involved, but rather because planning is involved in ALL aspects of playing an MMO, not just crafting).
"Id rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity."
- Raph Koster
Tried: AO,EQ,EQ2,DAoC,SWG,AA,SB,HZ,CoX,PS,GA,TR,IV,GnH,EVE, PP,DnL,WAR,MxO,SWG,FE,VG,AoC,DDO,LoTRO,Rift,TOR,Aion,Tera,TSW,GW2,DCUO,CO,STO
Favourites: AO,SWG,EVE,TR,LoTRO,TSW,EQ2, Firefall
Currently Playing: ESO
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That's only if the crafter adds no value or skill to it.
They worked fine in the games I've played. Of course, it helps when the crafter has to press more than 1 button.
Even in EQ2, where crafting isn't particularly complicated, i can log in now on my crafter, buy a whole bunch of components on broker (which are on sale by adventurers and/or other crafters), out of those components i could craft a bunch of usable items, put them back on sale and make a pile of money. In my experience, the components are ALWAYS cheaper than end product. This is true in EQ2 and was true in both SWG, Firefall and EVE (which had better crafting systems or more robust crafter economies)
"Id rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity."
- Raph Koster
Tried: AO,EQ,EQ2,DAoC,SWG,AA,SB,HZ,CoX,PS,GA,TR,IV,GnH,EVE, PP,DnL,WAR,MxO,SWG,FE,VG,AoC,DDO,LoTRO,Rift,TOR,Aion,Tera,TSW,GW2,DCUO,CO,STO
Favourites: AO,SWG,EVE,TR,LoTRO,TSW,EQ2, Firefall
Currently Playing: ESO
It doesn't have to. Loot drops can remain useful by:
- being upgradeable via crafting
- having different / unique attributes that complement the crafted stuff
- being a good source of components for crafting
"Id rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity."
- Raph Koster
Tried: AO,EQ,EQ2,DAoC,SWG,AA,SB,HZ,CoX,PS,GA,TR,IV,GnH,EVE, PP,DnL,WAR,MxO,SWG,FE,VG,AoC,DDO,LoTRO,Rift,TOR,Aion,Tera,TSW,GW2,DCUO,CO,STO
Favourites: AO,SWG,EVE,TR,LoTRO,TSW,EQ2, Firefall
Currently Playing: ESO
Making everyone hostage to crafters for one of if not the core progression of the game.
Crafters can make the gear you get in raids even better
One can say that it holds everyone hostage to adventurers also. Both would be needed. That's the whole point of creating interdependence (well, that and having a meaningful economy).
"Id rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity."
- Raph Koster
Tried: AO,EQ,EQ2,DAoC,SWG,AA,SB,HZ,CoX,PS,GA,TR,IV,GnH,EVE, PP,DnL,WAR,MxO,SWG,FE,VG,AoC,DDO,LoTRO,Rift,TOR,Aion,Tera,TSW,GW2,DCUO,CO,STO
Favourites: AO,SWG,EVE,TR,LoTRO,TSW,EQ2, Firefall
Currently Playing: ESO