there is flaw in my logic please someone let me know. Perhaps there is some minutia of obscure data that I haven't had access to purtaining to why the secondary market is so oft overlooked.
If I understand correctly, and you are wondering why more companies don't do it, then I suspect the answer is two fold. 1) The people who create the games are also gamers who themselves do not like the secondary market. So they create the game they want. 2) A good chunk of the market still claims to despise the secondary market. If they are telling the truth, then it's possible companies are afraid they would lose a good chunk of their customer base.
To say that "it will happen anyways" is...well, agh, how to say this without being overly dramatic. If there had been message boards 100-300 years ago, people might have said "slavery will happen anyways, so deal with it, or find a way to take advantage of it". Or "racial segregation and prejudice always be there, why put up a fuss fighting it?". Extreme examples, yes, but it highlights that activities which are a natural easy way to advance in life, that seem part of human nature almost, can be effectively combated. Maybe not everywhere. Maybe not 100%. But in one country at a time, headway can be made if enough people want to and don't give up. So maybe, one game at a time, the secondary market can be weakened.
So I will never, ever, acquiesce to the disease that is the illegal secondary market. I will not knowingly associate with those that do. If I have a chance to strike against it, I will.
Where it is legal and sanctioned...cool. That's fine. I won't play those games because they don't appeal to me, but I don't think less of them or anyone who wants to play them. It's sorta like playing the stock market in a way, only there are virtual worlds to toodle around in.
Amazing how RMT in online games has gone from an "underground" thing that people used to do in secret, behind closed doors, all "hush-hush" like to now something that people are declaring as their god-given right. Someone even mentioned "free-market society". FFS...
Once again, I see the argument that "RMT Is good for people who simply don't have the time to put into the game to work for something and would like to buy it instead". That is such a hollow, ridiculous statement that it baffles me how many people stand behind it as though it's some rock-solid ace card they're playing. Another is how it "levels the playing field and makes it more fair for people who don't have the time to invest..." Excuse me? It's "unfair" that some people have more time to play a game than you do? Oh please... bring out the violins. Sorry... that's called *life*. If you have less time to play than someone else it's *common-sense* that it will take you longer to acquire an item than someone with more time to play. It's only unfair to those who somehow feel they are entitled to have everything they want without having to earn it simply because they don't feel like putting any effort into it.
All games are designed to be a challenge - each in their own way. In MMORPGs part of that challenge is developing your character and earning the better gear, etc. When other players look at you they believe you have put alot of time into the game and really have accomplished alot when all you've really done is whipped out your credit card. Lame. Lame. Lame.
I've said it before and I will continue to say it - people who RMT and buy their way through a game are completely missing the point of playing in the first place. The games are designed with everything in place to allow any player to acquire and achieve anything they want in the game.
There is no excuse to RMT. Stop being so damn lazy, stop with the ridiculous excuses and rationlizations, accept a damn challenge for once and play the damn games the way they were designed.
If it will take you longer than you'd like to get where you'd like to be in a gmae - then perhaps you should pick a game better suited to your time availability.
In the end - RMTers lose becuase as the developers and support teams catch them - admittedly much more slowly in some games than in others - they are suspended and/or banned. Square-Enix is doing a fantastic job with this in FFXI. Perhaps you people in here trying to state your case about "free-market societies" and "not having enough time to play the game properly" should take a clue from that and realize, once and for all...
No.. RMT in a game not designed around and expressely forbidding it is *not* okay. Not by your rationalizations. Not by any rationalizations.
You're obviously BS'ing yourselves.. but for the rest of us who have the brain-cells enough to see it for what it is - you're not fooling us at all.
At least have the integrity to accept it for what it is - cheating.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
For just about everygame out there, now, I do not understand how any one can gain a sense of accomplishment for gaining items. Its not about skill/ability, knowledge or anything other than timesinks. The only game I can remember where I fealt proud of an item was in SWG. In order to make the very best items you had to work hard, you had to have clothing tapes installed in your crafting outfits, you ahd to have the best crafting machines, the very best of resources and a good deal of patience. Everything else is just loot drops that help make you look like everyone else. Also in SWG it was more than items that made the character, it was the skill the player had and the build that the player worked on that could set themselves in a better position than another person with better equipment.
[Roger Kipe: I will address both of your arguments:
I had a friend that once built a boat. It took him a great deal of time and was all he thought about for as long as some of his friends could remember. He celebrated with all of his friends when he finished the project and took everyone out to see how great the ship performed. He was as proud of himself for the work he had done as for the ability to show it to others. We saw plenty of other boats that day on the lake and some were much more beautiful and clearly worth more money but this did not deter my friend from gleaming like a beacon as he knew it was the work and dedication he had put in that made his special and it did not matter how the others had gotten their boats....
The morale of the store is, that you should derive your since of accomplishment or joy from the work you put into achieving something. If you constantly judge it or yourself against others you will never be satisfied with the results.
Poor old Rodger - whats so funny about his argument is that its the people who are comparing themselves to others in game who have better gear who are the ones out buying gold/items from the farmers. And how many of those are satisifed after spending their money - as one poster pointed out he quit soon after.
In avoidance of being called a "plug" I'll leave the name of the game we're developing out, however numerous studies and debates back and forth have proven without a shadow of a doubt that if managed, ingame currency sales and the secondary market in general can be turned from a negative force to an overwhelmingly positive force for game developers.
If there is flaw in my logic please someone let me know. Perhaps there is some minutia of obscure data that I haven't had access to purtaining to why the secondary market is so oft overlooked.
Well I would provide several examples for you
- Rodger's example of someone suing a Korean company because an item he bought off an RMT was deleted. He won. Imagine how strong his case would be if the company was the one who sold that item to him.
- Richard Garriot of Ultima online fame said in an interview the major problem is if you sell a customer something, and then nerf it you are wide open for law suits.
there is flaw in my logic please someone let me know. Perhaps there is some minutia of obscure data that I haven't had access to purtaining to why the secondary market is so oft overlooked.
If I understand correctly, and you are wondering why more companies don't do it, then I suspect the answer is two fold. 1) The people who create the games are also gamers who themselves do not like the secondary market. So they create the game they want. 2) A good chunk of the market still claims to despise the secondary market. If they are telling the truth, then it's possible companies are afraid they would lose a good chunk of their customer base.
To say that "it will happen anyways" is...well, agh, how to say this without being overly dramatic. If there had been message boards 100-300 years ago, people might have said "slavery will happen anyways, so deal with it, or find a way to take advantage of it". Or "racial segregation and prejudice always be there, why put up a fuss fighting it?". Extreme examples, yes, but it highlights that activities which are a natural easy way to advance in life, that seem part of human nature almost, can be effectively combated. Maybe not everywhere. Maybe not 100%. But in one country at a time, headway can be made if enough people want to and don't give up. So maybe, one game at a time, the secondary market can be weakened.
Not exactly the comparison I would have used but I understand what you're saying.
Slavery does happen, even today. Are you fond of the shoes on your feet? The shirt on your back? Most of the materials what went into the very computer you're using right now?
Slavery in a more politicaly correct form however it is managed.
Much of the problems with the world stem from our proclaimed desire [and ability to] suppress human nature. One such example is our so-called "War on Terror" but people tend to forget that you cannot I repeat cannot defeat a human tendency inherent in all of us however large or small.
You cannot per say defeat the secondary market any more than you can defeat the black market for instance because your enemy isn't the adena farming internet cafes in China or the sweatshops in well... areas... around China or the Mexicans who *stole* your daddys job.
You're argueing against a virtually uninforceable ideal and a shakey one at that.
No person in history has ever quit an online game because they didn't agree with the sale of ingame items and I doubt they ever will. Anyone who says "I will not associate with those who do" is just another form of snobbish elitism.
Everyone does it.
And even if you could champion a global wave of anti-secondary marketeers and somehow manage to convince the community that the secondary market is somehow wrong, who would want to live in a world like that? A world [and the world of gaming] where any idea regardless of what it is even about and who it affects is only taken for face value and blindly accepted values are not challenged.
That my friends is a world without salt, because everybody knows salt leads to heart dissease. Right?
I like my salt dammet! I likes it alot! >.<
The secondary market provides hope to those of us who have lives and jobs outside of the game by allowing us to earn it where we can; in real life.
Simply stating as I have that it is going to happen anyway isn't a defeatist standpoint, it's a realist standpoint unless your game is Dark and Light and not even the koreans want to play it.
Oh you might [after a lengthy lifelong careers in politics and a final federal law pohibiting the sale of nontangible merchandise] begin to lay the foundations for a system which could possibly limit who all can and cannot do so, but you're only shifting the sand around.
Can you successfully police thousands if not millions of people in asia for what they do in a videogame in North America?
No, you cannot.
Originally posted by _Shadowmage
Well I would provide several examples for you - Rodger's example of someone suing a Korean company because an item he bought off an RMT was deleted. He won. Imagine how strong his case would be if the company was the one who sold that item to him. - Richard Garriot of Ultima online fame said in an interview the major problem is if you sell a customer something, and then nerf it you are wide open for law suits. So good luck with that game.
Why is this?
Because Lineage 2 and Ultima Online were not designed with the secondary market in mind. You've effectively missed the point of the initial debate on page 1 and made my point for me.
I agree completely with Roger Kipe on this - and the Korean decision. The in game property should belong to the player who invested the time, fees, and energy to get it. If that person wants to sell it, that shouldn't concern the developers at all.
Certainly it has no affect on game economy. Somebody earned the item or gold at sometime. It didn't somehow magically appear.
I think having a place where people want to trade things they have earned is a good thing, and I fylly support the secondary market.
Originally posted by WSIMike Amazing how RMT in online games has gone from an "underground" thing that people used to do in secret, behind closed doors, all "hush-hush" like to now something that people are declaring as their god-given right. Someone even mentioned "free-market society". FFS...
Once again, I see the argument that "RMT Is good for people who simply don't have the time to put into the game to work for something and would like to buy it instead". That is such a hollow, ridiculous statement that it baffles me how many people stand behind it as though it's some rock-solid ace card they're playing. Another is how it "levels the playing field and makes it more fair for people who don't have the time to invest..." Excuse me? It's "unfair" that some people have more time to play a game than you do? Oh please... bring out the violins. Sorry... that's called *life*. If you have less time to play than someone else it's *common-sense* that it will take you longer to acquire an item than someone with more time to play. It's only unfair to those who somehow feel they are entitled to have everything they want without having to earn it simply because they don't feel like putting any effort into it.
All games are designed to be a challenge - each in their own way. In MMORPGs part of that challenge is developing your character and earning the better gear, etc. When other players look at you they believe you have put alot of time into the game and really have accomplished alot when all you've really done is whipped out your credit card. Lame. Lame. Lame.
I've said it before and I will continue to say it - people who RMT and buy their way through a game are completely missing the point of playing in the first place. The games are designed with everything in place to allow any player to acquire and achieve anything they want in the game.
There is no excuse to RMT. Stop being so damn lazy, stop with the ridiculous excuses and rationlizations, accept a damn challenge for once and play the damn games the way they were designed.
If it will take you longer than you'd like to get where you'd like to be in a gmae - then perhaps you should pick a game better suited to your time availability.
In the end - RMTers lose becuase as the developers and support teams catch them - admittedly much more slowly in some games than in others - they are suspended and/or banned. Square-Enix is doing a fantastic job with this in FFXI. Perhaps you people in here trying to state your case about "free-market societies" and "not having enough time to play the game properly" should take a clue from that and realize, once and for all...
No.. RMT in a game not designed around and expressely forbidding it is *not* okay. Not by your rationalizations. Not by any rationalizations.
You're obviously BS'ing yourselves.. but for the rest of us who have the brain-cells enough to see it for what it is - you're not fooling us at all.
At least have the integrity to accept it for what it is - cheating.
How is someone working 40 hours a week in the real world making enough disposable income to be able to buy a sword of mobslaying +10 any worse than some punk kid that cuts school to play a video game for 40 hours a week? What you seem to fail to realize is that none of these games require much in the way of skill or thought, just time. If it were a skill or thought based game then people wouldnt make such a stink about someone else buying that sword or that pile of gold because money and items can not compensate for a complete lack of skill.
You may find going into some area and spending 50 or 60 hours killing the same mobbies over and over again entertaining but that doesnt mean that others share your opinion. Someone once wrote that the proof of the existence of hell is repitition. Yet thats what these games encourage, mindnumbing reptition over and over again only so you keep paying a subscription fee like the other lemmings.
Fact of the matter is this: The way these games are developed the "rmt" does not take anythign away from you. Someone is still out there for those 50 or 60 hours, mind numbingly grinding away on mobbies then turning around and selling that stuff to someone else who doesnt enjoy that. If you feel a sense of accomplishment for being able to grind away to get that extra gold piece then more power to you. Someone else feels a sense of accomplishment by spending time with loved ones, playing a bit of a vid game, reading a book, having intercourse with someone other than themselves and having a good nights sleep before going to work in the morning.
You say people are missing the point of playing in the first place. I dont see how. They are able to log in, spend time with friends and log out. Isnt that what the point of these games are? I think the only one's deluding themselves are the ones that equate mindnumbing repetition with a challenge.
Originally posted by WSIMike Amazing how RMT in online games has gone from an "underground" thing that people used to do in secret, behind closed doors, all "hush-hush" like to now something that people are declaring as their god-given right. Someone even mentioned "free-market society". FFS...
Once again, I see the argument that "RMT Is good for people who simply don't have the time to put into the game to work for something and would like to buy it instead". That is such a hollow, ridiculous statement that it baffles me how many people stand behind it as though it's some rock-solid ace card they're playing. Another is how it "levels the playing field and makes it more fair for people who don't have the time to invest..." Excuse me? It's "unfair" that some people have more time to play a game than you do? Oh please... bring out the violins. Sorry... that's called *life*. If you have less time to play than someone else it's *common-sense* that it will take you longer to acquire an item than someone with more time to play. It's only unfair to those who somehow feel they are entitled to have everything they want without having to earn it simply because they don't feel like putting any effort into it.
All games are designed to be a challenge - each in their own way. In MMORPGs part of that challenge is developing your character and earning the better gear, etc. When other players look at you they believe you have put alot of time into the game and really have accomplished alot when all you've really done is whipped out your credit card. Lame. Lame. Lame.
I've said it before and I will continue to say it - people who RMT and buy their way through a game are completely missing the point of playing in the first place. The games are designed with everything in place to allow any player to acquire and achieve anything they want in the game.
There is no excuse to RMT. Stop being so damn lazy, stop with the ridiculous excuses and rationlizations, accept a damn challenge for once and play the damn games the way they were designed.
If it will take you longer than you'd like to get where you'd like to be in a gmae - then perhaps you should pick a game better suited to your time availability.
In the end - RMTers lose becuase as the developers and support teams catch them - admittedly much more slowly in some games than in others - they are suspended and/or banned. Square-Enix is doing a fantastic job with this in FFXI. Perhaps you people in here trying to state your case about "free-market societies" and "not having enough time to play the game properly" should take a clue from that and realize, once and for all...
No.. RMT in a game not designed around and expressely forbidding it is *not* okay. Not by your rationalizations. Not by any rationalizations.
You're obviously BS'ing yourselves.. but for the rest of us who have the brain-cells enough to see it for what it is - you're not fooling us at all.
At least have the integrity to accept it for what it is - cheating.
How is someone working 40 hours a week in the real world making enough disposable income to be able to buy a sword of mobslaying +10 any worse than some punk kid that cuts school to play a video game for 40 hours a week? What you seem to fail to realize is that none of these games require much in the way of skill or thought, just time. If it were a skill or thought based game then people wouldnt make such a stink about someone else buying that sword or that pile of gold because money and items can not compensate for a complete lack of skill.
You may find going into some area and spending 50 or 60 hours killing the same mobbies over and over again entertaining but that doesnt mean that others share your opinion. Someone once wrote that the proof of the existence of hell is repitition. Yet thats what these games encourage, mindnumbing reptition over and over again only so you keep paying a subscription fee like the other lemmings.
Fact of the matter is this: The way these games are developed the "rmt" does not take anythign away from you. Someone is still out there for those 50 or 60 hours, mind numbingly grinding away on mobbies then turning around and selling that stuff to someone else who doesnt enjoy that. If you feel a sense of accomplishment for being able to grind away to get that extra gold piece then more power to you. Someone else feels a sense of accomplishment by spending time with loved ones, playing a bit of a vid game, reading a book, having intercourse with someone other than themselves and having a good nights sleep before going to work in the morning.
You say people are missing the point of playing in the first place. I dont see how. They are able to log in, spend time with friends and log out. Isnt that what the point of these games are? I think the only one's deluding themselves are the ones that equate mindnumbing repetition with a challenge.
Same old Brad - a lot of emotions and words twisting but not a single solid argument or any sign of logic. The truth is - as a developer he wants this money from secondary market but as it was mentioned already he can not openly say it. And then we have to read all this rubbish about "offended players majority".
I can not say if secondary market is good or bad. It was always there. Hidden, yes, but always there. Does it affect game-play? Hard to say. If the game is interesting, if the process of obtaining those items is fun - then you can only pity people who buy there items instead getting them by normal way. Brad's defense is for games where you have to WORK for your in-game stuff. And sorry but in these games I do not see difference between someone, who has a lot of free time and can farm for hours, and the one who has money instead and buy the thing he wants. What is the problem? Money and even ruined economy do not remove the game-way to get items - questing, hunting, crafting. If the processes of hunting and crafting are interesting - then you lose nothing because of the secondary market.
Make it interesting, make it fun, combine with some restrictions like binding stuff - and you can regulate this market without lawyers.
I'm against people who are conducting profitable business on property that they do not lease. I wouldn't walk into Disneyland and start hawking lemonade - made from their lemon trees and with cups I swiped from the soda vendors, no less. I'd be thrown out and possibly banned for life from all things Disney. I paid the admission fee, but that doesn't mean I have the right to profit on someone else's private property.
The fact that people are lined up halfway around the park to buy my cheap lemonade does not excuse the fact that I'm there getting something for spending time acquiring that which I had no intent to use for entertainment.
Here is my take on the premise of a monthly fee - some marketing exec, please tell me if I have this wrong:
You pay to log in anytime you want, but the monthly fee is based upon the average consumers' usage of the game's resources and upkeep during that month. The more that play, the more profitable it is and although more upkeep is necessary, it irons itself out and still remains profitable.
If "Player A" plays 8 hours a day, they are getting more than their fair share of entertainment value by the way the books see it. They impact the upkeep, as they are seeing more content and doing more things to cause traffic on the servers; the least impact is using bandwidth and keeping other paying players from logging in (queue times are a #$%^) - which costs money too.
"Player B," who spends maybe two hours a day playing is not affecting bandwidth very much and had less time and, arguably, less inclination to locate and report problems. they are not completely getting their money's worth, but that's where the fun factor and entertainment value comes into play. It's still cheaper than either dinner or a movie.
Then comes "Player C," who "plays" for 12 - 72 hours a stretch. They are using up their share of the monthly fee they pay in the first few days of being online. Not only that, they are continually incurring bandwidth traffic while doing things that other players normally would not do - at least not for the lengths of time with no risk being inviolved. A player looking for entertainment would only do something so mundane for a comparably short time to pay for a mount and/or gear, then move on.
"Player C" is the lemonade vendor that takes more than is offered and attempts to profit by it without being offered a job and/or offering to pay extra for the extra resources used.
Can you imagine going to Disneyland and everyone arrives at dawn and leaves at midnight? It would be the unhappiest place on earth - or the price of admission would be so astronomical that only the very rich would be so flippantly arrogant to pay.
Devil's Advocate sez:
With total control of the market where a business uses outside currency on its property, the owner can charge whatever they want for the little things that make life easier. That's why it's $2.50 for a 16 oz. soda at Disneyland. That's also why you can buy a preferred pass and go to "elite" short lines at Disneyland. Class separation at Disneyland. Walt's been rolling over in his cryo-stasis chamber over that greedy decision. This is something EQII wanted in on. Amateurs. Without security guards at the gates, no less.
It is not allowed in WoW or any other MMOG where the people running the show and the players wish to keep outside income from influencing how successful you are at a game. It's bad business to cater to the marginal amount of gamers who can't afford to buy a leg up. They will likely quit over it sooner, rather than later. When all 120,000 players that can afford to buy a level 70 toon and deck it out with full blue gear and mounts and potions are playing, what then? Welp, I'd say you cut off 5 million other players for a short gain. Got five employees? Maybe that will work for you. Otherwise, you are sunk. The other thing is... what's the freaking point? A rich man's paper, rock, scissors, mushroom? Worked for Simutronics' text games, apparently. (As a role-player, I had to cringe at such a generalization, but I'm a member of an increasingly small group of people who like to mix game mechanics with acting.)
A game needs to be designed from the beginning with tools to detect and remove those who are looking to make a living off their GAME. It should be illicit. I'm shocked that it's not already. Shouldn't give a damn? You damn better! If it gets bad enough, the wrong laws will be passed - and the government starched shirts of the U.S.A. DO NOT like the software entertainment industry. I don't want to see monthly fees go up and/or keeping the game card crowd out because they can't get or afford a credit card. I also don't want the secondary market given litigous legitimacy! Players will be next, demanding that they legally be paid for their stacks of dragon leather in cash!
On a very basic level the entire question can be reduced to this: do you agree with the idea of capitalism (free market) or not. There is nothing else.
Yeah, you can tell me it damages prices or your achievement pride - but that all goes into the same bag. The idea is, free market aka capitalism aka niche exploiting is either good or bad in the long run.
All this has nothing to do with how you feel. IMO it was quite unfair to take Brad McQuaid into this, a developer and CEO who will split many ppl into disagree or agree more based on if they like him or not. A less controversial person would have been better. I am quite sure some ppl just agree with him because they like Vanguard. Sorry, but humans often fuction that way.
Ppl are talked into moral frenzies to ban gold or item selling, without any logic. If I buy 10 castles 100 horses and 2000 golden axes with $$$ in my fav MMO, so what? It is MY matter, MY decision and no one elses. Sorry if anyone feel degraded, but such is life. Our free society is based on those liberties that I can spent my own money on every legal good, and there is no objective damage done to anyone if I buy myself an entire house full of weapons, characters or whatever. Not that I would do, but I think everyone has the RIGHT and it is no bodies business.
I think those EULAs stand on quite weak feet, and usually the companies still can enforce them because players are easily made afraid and banned. In the end, it is a matter of monetary interests and has nothing to do with morals.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
On the right corner the Sherift of NerverHam, Brad.
LOL, reading this is funny as hell. Brad is just not getting to understand what a "GAME" is. He is right on the fact that most peoples care about who get what and how. I will never care about the fact that someone who waste his money is equal as I am while I never spent any money to get there.
Just in case you didn't remember the story guys, Ivanhoe remain loyal to King Arthur, althought favorable to Robin Hood, he never really join with them. King Richard is coming back from the Crusade eventually, prolly when BioWare release their MMO. Both sides, Brad and Kipe alike will be left fighting an empty and meaningless conflict as the masses rally the King of RPGs while the Sherift is put aside, BioWare is coming back from the crusade.
A good design is impervious to Kipe black market(just as when King Arthur is naturally kind to his peasants and Robin stop fighting for them, as it become unecessary), but poorly design games that try to enforce foreign gameplays if you want to play the real gameplay, they have everything to fear. Fear of these black market is for the weaks....and the raiders!
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
Originally posted by Elikal On a very basic level the entire question can be reduced to this: do you agree with the idea of capitalism (free market) or not. There is nothing else. Yeah, you can tell me it damages prices or your achievement pride - but that all goes into the same bag. The idea is, free market aka capitalism aka niche exploiting is either good or bad in the long run. All this has nothing to do with how you feel. IMO it was quite unfair to take Brad McQuaid into this, a developer and CEO who will split many ppl into disagree or agree more based on if they like him or not. A less controversial person would have been better. I am quite sure some ppl just agree with him because they like Vanguard. Sorry, but humans often fuction that way. Ppl are talked into moral frenzies to ban gold or item selling, without any logic. If I buy 10 castles 100 horses and 2000 golden axes with $$$ in my fav MMO, so what? It is MY matter, MY decision and no one elses. Sorry if anyone feel degraded, but such is life. Our free society is based on those liberties that I can spent my own money on every legal good, and there is no objective damage done to anyone if I buy myself an entire house full of weapons, characters or whatever. Not that I would do, but I think everyone has the RIGHT and it is no bodies business. I think those EULAs stand on quite weak feet, and usually the companies still can enforce them because players are easily made afraid and banned. In the end, it is a matter of monetary interests and has nothing to do with morals.
I'm nto saying that I don't understand the reason some people have a problem with the secondary market.
I hated dealing with bots and hearing "USA DOG YOU GO NOW" spewing from avatars in L2 as much as the next guy but in keeping with what I believe the initial point was, the overwhelming majority of these concerns are derived from the fact that this is because the secondary market wasn't accounted for in lineage 2.
Can anyone cite an mmorpg which was designed around 2nd market transactions that has failed? Even that new Korean game "Silkroad" is doing well being f2p and has an ingame item mall for real currency sales.
It had to be said sooner or later and I don't want to open a can of worms but it's amazing how much this whole debate sounds exactly like the debate to legalize merijuana.
Pro Legalization: Legalizing marijuana has a number of benefits. People are going to buy it anyways! This way, nobody get's thrown into prison and their lives ruined over a stupid law that shouldn't be anyway, plus think of what a boost to the economy it would be!
Anti-Legalization: That doesn't change the fact that it's wrong! It just is! We don't have to explain to you why it is but it just is alright!
People who are aggressively anti-2nd market are statistically those among us who play the most and typically either have no jobs or cannot/choose not to be successful in real life. The ability for those with money irl to purchase goods and services in these games means that those people who have no lives can no longer lord over those with lives so easily and that adults [I went ahead and said it] can buy their way onto the same level.
It seems to me some of you miss the point, yes it's a game.......games have rules to keep them balanced so the game is fun to play. you could play monopoly and allow people to buy land and game money with rl money too, but then whoever buys all the properties is going to win and the game will no longer be fun to play. People that justify cheating, which breaking the Eula is, ruin the game for those that play by the rules. Want to play with rl money, play the stock market and leave the games alone. Some of the reasons to play are to find all the treasures, explore the world and grow big. Why screw up the game and jump ahead? I used to think anyone could see this, I have since quit two games that condoned in game trading that ran rampant, and it seems like it's just getting worse. I won't play one that doesn't try to stop this and control it as much as possible and if that means not playing so be it. If you buy then I guess your one of the ones that ruin the game for those of us that don't.
If you notice I didn't ask why the sellers do it, that's obvious they are making a lot of money. They don't care about the game, they care about the coin. The one's that are beyond me are the players that justify buying with such dandies as well I don't have time to "grind" the money. I equate that to a tennis player who lets someone else hit the balls for him because he doesn't have time to practice and learn how to play as good as his opponet. If you buy the goods you aren't playing the game.
Originally posted by MisterJaw I'm against people who are conducting profitable business on property that they do not lease. I wouldn't walk into Disneyland and start hawking lemonade - made from their lemon trees and with cups I swiped from the soda vendors, no less. I'd be thrown out and possibly banned for life from all things Disney. I paid the admission fee, but that doesn't mean I have the right to profit on someone else's private property. The fact that people are lined up halfway around the park to buy my cheap lemonade does not excuse the fact that I'm there getting something for spending time acquiring that which I had no intent to use for entertainment. Troublemaker that I am, What if I buy a ticket into Disneyland. Buy a Lemonade from a vendor, but someone is willing to buy it from me? Disneyland has the right to intervene and prevent me from doing so? What if I wanted to make a guide on the best places to go in Disney for your money and sold it on ebay. Disney can shut me down? (Well, they can, but only If I claim I am offically from or represent Disney. ) What fires up a lot of justified emotions here is the misconception that all secondary market concepts are cheating. Some markets are scum. Programs that hack into the system is reprehensible and legal action is warranted. However, despite the fact we all despise the behavior of gold/item farming, they have bought an account and are utilizing the product in a manner which is not illegal. The part we have issues is that they are selling pixels for real money. They haven't stolen the gaming program from the developer, they haven't stolen the idea or the game concept and made money from their competitive MMO. They "played" the game. In fact, it could be agrued that the game encourages this activity. Kill mobs to get money or items. Only this mob drops this special item, so in order to get the special item you must camp it or kill it over and over until you get the item. Here is my take on the premise of a monthly fee - some marketing exec, please tell me if I have this wrong: You pay to log in anytime you want, but the monthly fee is based upon the average consumers' usage of the game's resources and upkeep during that month. The more that play, the more profitable it is and although more upkeep is necessary, it irons itself out and still remains profitable. Fair enough. What do I get when I buy the Box of software and load it on my computer? Is that leased as well? Now if the game is free to download, but a monthly fee is required then I have a tough case to claim anything about the game is mine. A game needs to be designed from the beginning with tools to detect and remove those who are looking to make a living off their GAME. It should be illicit. I'm shocked that it's not already. Shouldn't give a damn? You damn better! If it gets bad enough, the wrong laws will be passed - and the government starched shirts of the U.S.A. DO NOT like the software entertainment industry. I don't want to see monthly fees go up and/or keeping the game card crowd out because they can't get or afford a credit card. I also don't want the secondary market given litigous legitimacy! Players will be next, demanding that they legally be paid for their stacks of dragon leather in cash!
Most games from well funded /invested games do have state of the art anti-viral and counter programs to detect hacking. A few will sneak through, but devs will eventually adjust and the banstick will be unleashed.
However, I think it will be near futility to create/develop/change a game that can account for all forms of a free market. I think this is the conundrum of developers.
Remember when EQ2 came out? It had lots of new "features" like encounter locking and such. You couldn't buff anyone outside your party, etc. I sincerely believe these were methods to deter powerlevelling, bots, etc. EQ2 soon realized its subscriptions were less than stellar and soon removed some of the draconian codes, and behold the game is much improved.
My last thoughts - when I play my character and work through the content to reach "endgame", I may have invested a few months of subscription fees and a $60 software box. When I see people buying a similar looking character for $1,000 on ebay I laugh my arse off. To me, its like buying an apple for $100. Even better they buy the character and don't know how to play it. Who is the fool?
Originally posted by Haplos It seems to me some of you miss the point, yes it's a game.......games have rules to keep them balanced so the game is fun to play. you could play monopoly and allow people to buy land and game money with rl money too, but then whoever buys all the properties is going to win and the game will no longer be fun to play. People that justify cheating, which breaking the Eula is, ruin the game for those that play by the rules. Want to play with rl money, play the stock market and leave the games alone. Some of the reasons to play are to find all the treasures, explore the world and grow big. Why screw up the game and jump ahead? I used to think anyone could see this, I have since quit two games that condoned in game trading that ran rampant, and it seems like it's just getting worse. I won't play one that doesn't try to stop this and control it as much as possible and if that means not playing so be it. If you buy then I guess your one of the ones that ruin the game for those of us that don't.
If you notice I didn't ask why the sellers do it, that's obvious they are making a lot of money. They don't care about the game, they care about the coin. The one's that are beyond me are the players that justify buying with such dandies as well I don't have time to "grind" the money. I equate that to a tennis player who lets someone else hit the balls for him because he doesn't have time to practice and learn how to play as good as his opponet. If you buy the goods you aren't playing the game.
But that is precisely the point. Black Markets are only successfull when the game ain't fun to play anymore; yet the peoples are not understanding it and try to play despite not having fun (raiding). If the game is FUN, peoples cheating are only cheating themselves.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
Originally posted by Anofalye Originally posted by Haplos It seems to me some of you miss the point, yes it's a game.......games have rules to keep them balanced so the game is fun to play. you could play monopoly and allow people to buy land and game money with rl money too, but then whoever buys all the properties is going to win and the game will no longer be fun to play. People that justify cheating, which breaking the Eula is, ruin the game for those that play by the rules. Want to play with rl money, play the stock market and leave the games alone. Some of the reasons to play are to find all the treasures, explore the world and grow big. Why screw up the game and jump ahead? I used to think anyone could see this, I have since quit two games that condoned in game trading that ran rampant, and it seems like it's just getting worse. I won't play one that doesn't try to stop this and control it as much as possible and if that means not playing so be it. If you buy then I guess your one of the ones that ruin the game for those of us that don't.
If you notice I didn't ask why the sellers do it, that's obvious they are making a lot of money. They don't care about the game, they care about the coin. The one's that are beyond me are the players that justify buying with such dandies as well I don't have time to "grind" the money. I equate that to a tennis player who lets someone else hit the balls for him because he doesn't have time to practice and learn how to play as good as his opponet. If you buy the goods you aren't playing the game.
But that is precisely the point. Black Markets are only successfull when the game ain't fun to play anymore; yet the peoples are not understanding it and try to play despite not having fun (raiding). If the game is FUN, peoples cheating are only cheating themselves. If it quits being fun for you to play, quit playing. I used to play board games in my younger days and when they lost their appeal I found other entertainment to occupy my time, I would never of thought if I slip extra counters on the boards so i'm unbeatable this game will be so much more fun. I have left several mmorpgs that just lost their appeal for me, because I was maxed out and raiding for gear every night and it just got boring after a while. Why would I think that if I buy all that gear I'll suddenly be happy? If that's all that is left to do and I buy the gear, then I'm gonna what? Run around town saying look at me? Bet you've seen that too huh. That's good for about 10 minutes then your done again. So I'd disagree with you that that's when people buy. They buy because they see that dark reaver and get it in their head that they just have to have it. Then next patch they see that new sword and how much better it is and just have to have it, never understanding that it's the earning of it as much as the having it that makes it special.
Originally posted by MisterJaw I'm against people who are conducting profitable business on property that they do not lease. I wouldn't walk into Disneyland and start hawking lemonade - made from their lemon trees and with cups I swiped from the soda vendors, no less. I'd be thrown out and possibly banned for life from all things Disney. I paid the admission fee, but that doesn't mean I have the right to profit on someone else's private property. The fact that people are lined up halfway around the park to buy my cheap lemonade does not excuse the fact that I'm there getting something for spending time acquiring that which I had no intent to use for entertainment. Here is my take on the premise of a monthly fee - some marketing exec, please tell me if I have this wrong: You pay to log in anytime you want, but the monthly fee is based upon the average consumers' usage of the game's resources and upkeep during that month. The more that play, the more profitable it is and although more upkeep is necessary, it irons itself out and still remains profitable. If "Player A" plays 8 hours a day, they are getting more than their fair share of entertainment value by the way the books see it. They impact the upkeep, as they are seeing more content and doing more things to cause traffic on the servers; the least impact is using bandwidth and keeping other paying players from logging in (queue times are a #$%^) - which costs money too. "Player B," who spends maybe two hours a day playing is not affecting bandwidth very much and had less time and, arguably, less inclination to locate and report problems. they are not completely getting their money's worth, but that's where the fun factor and entertainment value comes into play. It's still cheaper than either dinner or a movie. Then comes "Player C," who "plays" for 12 - 72 hours a stretch. They are using up their share of the monthly fee they pay in the first few days of being online. Not only that, they are continually incurring bandwidth traffic while doing things that other players normally would not do - at least not for the lengths of time with no risk being inviolved. A player looking for entertainment would only do something so mundane for a comparably short time to pay for a mount and/or gear, then move on. "Player C" is the lemonade vendor that takes more than is offered and attempts to profit by it without being offered a job and/or offering to pay extra for the extra resources used. Can you imagine going to Disneyland and everyone arrives at dawn and leaves at midnight? It would be the unhappiest place on earth - or the price of admission would be so astronomical that only the very rich would be so flippantly arrogant to pay. Devil's Advocate sez: With total control of the market where a business uses outside currency on its property, the owner can charge whatever they want for the little things that make life easier. That's why it's $2.50 for a 16 oz. soda at Disneyland. That's also why you can buy a preferred pass and go to "elite" short lines at Disneyland. Class separation at Disneyland. Walt's been rolling over in his cryo-stasis chamber over that greedy decision. This is something EQII wanted in on. Amateurs. Without security guards at the gates, no less. It is not allowed in WoW or any other MMOG where the people running the show and the players wish to keep outside income from influencing how successful you are at a game. It's bad business to cater to the marginal amount of gamers who can't afford to buy a leg up. They will likely quit over it sooner, rather than later. When all 120,000 players that can afford to buy a level 70 toon and deck it out with full blue gear and mounts and potions are playing, what then? Welp, I'd say you cut off 5 million other players for a short gain. Got five employees? Maybe that will work for you. Otherwise, you are sunk. The other thing is... what's the freaking point? A rich man's paper, rock, scissors, mushroom? Worked for Simutronics' text games, apparently. (As a role-player, I had to cringe at such a generalization, but I'm a member of an increasingly small group of people who like to mix game mechanics with acting.) A game needs to be designed from the beginning with tools to detect and remove those who are looking to make a living off their GAME. It should be illicit. I'm shocked that it's not already. Shouldn't give a damn? You damn better! If it gets bad enough, the wrong laws will be passed - and the government starched shirts of the U.S.A. DO NOT like the software entertainment industry. I don't want to see monthly fees go up and/or keeping the game card crowd out because they can't get or afford a credit card. I also don't want the secondary market given litigous legitimacy! Players will be next, demanding that they legally be paid for their stacks of dragon leather in cash!
What about people, in your example, that go to disneyland, get a set of mickey mouse ears then turn around and sell those ears on ebay? I think that this is more of a prime example of the RTM. Person A goes to disneyland, pays admission, buys a set of mouse ears, then goes home and sells those ears. It's like someone logging into Game A, paying subscription fee, finding x drop, then auctioning it on ebay.
Originally posted by Haplos It seems to me some of you miss the point, yes it's a game.......games have rules to keep them balanced so the game is fun to play. you could play monopoly and allow people to buy land and game money with rl money too, but then whoever buys all the properties is going to win and the game will no longer be fun to play. People that justify cheating, which breaking the Eula is, ruin the game for those that play by the rules. Want to play with rl money, play the stock market and leave the games alone. Some of the reasons to play are to find all the treasures, explore the world and grow big. Why screw up the game and jump ahead? I used to think anyone could see this, I have since quit two games that condoned in game trading that ran rampant, and it seems like it's just getting worse. I won't play one that doesn't try to stop this and control it as much as possible and if that means not playing so be it. If you buy then I guess your one of the ones that ruin the game for those of us that don't.
If you notice I didn't ask why the sellers do it, that's obvious they are making a lot of money. They don't care about the game, they care about the coin. The one's that are beyond me are the players that justify buying with such dandies as well I don't have time to "grind" the money. I equate that to a tennis player who lets someone else hit the balls for him because he doesn't have time to practice and learn how to play as good as his opponet. If you buy the goods you aren't playing the game.
How precisely does it affect you though? I have heard this argument hundreds of times but lets be 100% honest here. They arent hacking the game system and stealing your sword of uberness to sell to joe schmoe, if player alpha buys x amount of in game currency unless they tell you you would have no idea. As long as its not through a dupe or an exploit then there is no noticeable affect on the gameworld as a whole (apart from some of the angry farmers that you occasionally run into in games like lineage 2, however there are just as many players spawn camping etc that are just as rude if not moreso.
Your equating a game's timesinks with tennis is laughable at best. You are overcompensating by thinking that you gain some sort of valuable skill by sitting there hitting f3 for 12 hours a day. Like I said earlier if any of these games actually required some amount of skill to be competitive in, the entire argument would be a moot point because all the money in the real world will not provide you with the hand eye coordination and intelligence to make proper use of a high level character or that uber piece of equipment.
The only thing that the arguments against amount to is its not fair that someone else has disposable income that they can throw away on a virtual item.
How is someone working 40 hours a week in the real world making enough disposable income to be able to buy a sword of mobslaying +10 any worse than some punk kid that cuts school to play a video game for 40 hours a week? What you seem to fail to realize is that none of these games require much in the way of skill or thought, just time. If it were a skill or thought based game then people wouldnt make such a stink about someone else buying that sword or that pile of gold because money and items can not compensate for a complete lack of skill.
You may find going into some area and spending 50 or 60 hours killing the same mobbies over and over again entertaining but that doesnt mean that others share your opinion. Someone once wrote that the proof of the existence of hell is repitition. Yet thats what these games encourage, mindnumbing reptition over and over again only so you keep paying a subscription fee like the other lemmings.
Fact of the matter is this: The way these games are developed the "rmt" does not take anythign away from you. Someone is still out there for those 50 or 60 hours, mind numbingly grinding away on mobbies then turning around and selling that stuff to someone else who doesnt enjoy that. If you feel a sense of accomplishment for being able to grind away to get that extra gold piece then more power to you. Someone else feels a sense of accomplishment by spending time with loved ones, playing a bit of a vid game, reading a book, having intercourse with someone other than themselves and having a good nights sleep before going to work in the morning.
You say people are missing the point of playing in the first place. I dont see how. They are able to log in, spend time with friends and log out. Isnt that what the point of these games are? I think the only one's deluding themselves are the ones that equate mindnumbing repetition with a challenge.
Even tho this is quite well written, and that I agree with the fact that honnest people -could- possibly benefit from the secondary market, your idea as a whole does not stand...
If someone is not enjoying a part of the gameplay, then he needs to find another game. As simple as that. Paying to jump over a whole part of a game to (most the of the time) PvP (since if the beginning of the game is mindnumbing, often is the end) -That- is missing the point of playing. And if the "Mindnumbing repetition" is not a challenge, then why -pay- to avoid it in the first place? It might not always be a challenge for your skills, but it is for your -will- and your -determination-.
The secondary market -is- wrong, legaly and moraly. Not only as those companies stealing from the game creators, but they allow cheating within the community, and whatever people say about it ,that is cheating. You spend less time into the game, you've got good chance to be weaker than those who had more time to spend. If you judge paying is required to have an equal ground with someone who have more time at hand, then you are not only wasting your money on a game you've allready lost interest of, not only harming the ingame economy and community, but you're doing so of an illegal manner. If you do not have enough time for the game, don't play the game.
You know what? I feel like beating FF7 . Hope my friend let me borrow his memory card, why bother scrolling through the repetitive combats, Sephiroth here I come !
Individuals do benefit from secondary markets, the people that sell and the people that buy. Game companies lose money, because if I buy a character, I don't pay a few months of monthly fees. Also the community as a whole suffers from this. I don't think it has anything to do with the free market system.
Originally posted by Haplos It seems to me some of you miss the point, yes it's a game.......games have rules to keep them balanced so the game is fun to play. you could play monopoly and allow people to buy land and game money with rl money too, but then whoever buys all the properties is going to win and the game will no longer be fun to play. People that justify cheating, which breaking the Eula is, ruin the game for those that play by the rules. Want to play with rl money, play the stock market and leave the games alone. Some of the reasons to play are to find all the treasures, explore the world and grow big. Why screw up the game and jump ahead? I used to think anyone could see this, I have since quit two games that condoned in game trading that ran rampant, and it seems like it's just getting worse. I won't play one that doesn't try to stop this and control it as much as possible and if that means not playing so be it. If you buy then I guess your one of the ones that ruin the game for those of us that don't.
If you notice I didn't ask why the sellers do it, that's obvious they are making a lot of money. They don't care about the game, they care about the coin. The one's that are beyond me are the players that justify buying with such dandies as well I don't have time to "grind" the money. I equate that to a tennis player who lets someone else hit the balls for him because he doesn't have time to practice and learn how to play as good as his opponet. If you buy the goods you aren't playing the game.
How long has WoW been out?
How many currency exchanges happen every single day on every server in the world on both sides?
Is wow ruined, or is it exactly the same as it was at launch?
The games' method of economy determines whether a game will be *ruined* by the secondary market.
WoW and L2 both have economies which are both stable and healthy despite rampant and persistant currency sales from outside sources.
The argument that said selling of currency in general harms the games economy therefore is moot.
Comments
If I understand correctly, and you are wondering why more companies don't do it, then I suspect the answer is two fold. 1) The people who create the games are also gamers who themselves do not like the secondary market. So they create the game they want. 2) A good chunk of the market still claims to despise the secondary market. If they are telling the truth, then it's possible companies are afraid they would lose a good chunk of their customer base.
To say that "it will happen anyways" is...well, agh, how to say this without being overly dramatic. If there had been message boards 100-300 years ago, people might have said "slavery will happen anyways, so deal with it, or find a way to take advantage of it". Or "racial segregation and prejudice always be there, why put up a fuss fighting it?". Extreme examples, yes, but it highlights that activities which are a natural easy way to advance in life, that seem part of human nature almost, can be effectively combated. Maybe not everywhere. Maybe not 100%. But in one country at a time, headway can be made if enough people want to and don't give up. So maybe, one game at a time, the secondary market can be weakened.
So I will never, ever, acquiesce to the disease that is the illegal secondary market. I will not knowingly associate with those that do. If I have a chance to strike against it, I will.
Where it is legal and sanctioned...cool. That's fine. I won't play those games because they don't appeal to me, but I don't think less of them or anyone who wants to play them. It's sorta like playing the stock market in a way, only there are virtual worlds to toodle around in.
Once again, I see the argument that "RMT Is good for people who simply don't have the time to put into the game to work for something and would like to buy it instead". That is such a hollow, ridiculous statement that it baffles me how many people stand behind it as though it's some rock-solid ace card they're playing. Another is how it "levels the playing field and makes it more fair for people who don't have the time to invest..." Excuse me? It's "unfair" that some people have more time to play a game than you do? Oh please... bring out the violins. Sorry... that's called *life*. If you have less time to play than someone else it's *common-sense* that it will take you longer to acquire an item than someone with more time to play. It's only unfair to those who somehow feel they are entitled to have everything they want without having to earn it simply because they don't feel like putting any effort into it.
All games are designed to be a challenge - each in their own way. In MMORPGs part of that challenge is developing your character and earning the better gear, etc. When other players look at you they believe you have put alot of time into the game and really have accomplished alot when all you've really done is whipped out your credit card. Lame. Lame. Lame.
I've said it before and I will continue to say it - people who RMT and buy their way through a game are completely missing the point of playing in the first place. The games are designed with everything in place to allow any player to acquire and achieve anything they want in the game.
There is no excuse to RMT. Stop being so damn lazy, stop with the ridiculous excuses and rationlizations, accept a damn challenge for once and play the damn games the way they were designed.
If it will take you longer than you'd like to get where you'd like to be in a gmae - then perhaps you should pick a game better suited to your time availability.
In the end - RMTers lose becuase as the developers and support teams catch them - admittedly much more slowly in some games than in others - they are suspended and/or banned. Square-Enix is doing a fantastic job with this in FFXI. Perhaps you people in here trying to state your case about "free-market societies" and "not having enough time to play the game properly" should take a clue from that and realize, once and for all...
No.. RMT in a game not designed around and expressely forbidding it is *not* okay. Not by your rationalizations. Not by any rationalizations.
You're obviously BS'ing yourselves.. but for the rest of us who have the brain-cells enough to see it for what it is - you're not fooling us at all.
At least have the integrity to accept it for what it is - cheating.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
http://www.speedtest.net/result/7300033012
Poor old Rodger - whats so funny about his argument is that its the people who are comparing themselves to others in game who have better gear who are the ones out buying gold/items from the farmers. And how many of those are satisifed after spending their money - as one poster pointed out he quit soon after.
Well I would provide several examples for you
- Rodger's example of someone suing a Korean company because an item he bought off an RMT was deleted. He won. Imagine how strong his case would be if the company was the one who sold that item to him.
- Richard Garriot of Ultima online fame said in an interview the major problem is if you sell a customer something, and then nerf it you are wide open for law suits.
So good luck with that game.
If I understand correctly, and you are wondering why more companies don't do it, then I suspect the answer is two fold. 1) The people who create the games are also gamers who themselves do not like the secondary market. So they create the game they want. 2) A good chunk of the market still claims to despise the secondary market. If they are telling the truth, then it's possible companies are afraid they would lose a good chunk of their customer base.
To say that "it will happen anyways" is...well, agh, how to say this without being overly dramatic. If there had been message boards 100-300 years ago, people might have said "slavery will happen anyways, so deal with it, or find a way to take advantage of it". Or "racial segregation and prejudice always be there, why put up a fuss fighting it?". Extreme examples, yes, but it highlights that activities which are a natural easy way to advance in life, that seem part of human nature almost, can be effectively combated. Maybe not everywhere. Maybe not 100%. But in one country at a time, headway can be made if enough people want to and don't give up. So maybe, one game at a time, the secondary market can be weakened.
Not exactly the comparison I would have used but I understand what you're saying.
Slavery does happen, even today. Are you fond of the shoes on your feet? The shirt on your back? Most of the materials what went into the very computer you're using right now?
Slavery in a more politicaly correct form however it is managed.
Much of the problems with the world stem from our proclaimed desire [and ability to] suppress human nature. One such example is our so-called "War on Terror" but people tend to forget that you cannot I repeat cannot defeat a human tendency inherent in all of us however large or small.
You cannot per say defeat the secondary market any more than you can defeat the black market for instance because your enemy isn't the adena farming internet cafes in China or the sweatshops in well... areas... around China or the Mexicans who *stole* your daddys job.
You're argueing against a virtually uninforceable ideal and a shakey one at that.
No person in history has ever quit an online game because they didn't agree with the sale of ingame items and I doubt they ever will. Anyone who says "I will not associate with those who do" is just another form of snobbish elitism.
Everyone does it.
And even if you could champion a global wave of anti-secondary marketeers and somehow manage to convince the community that the secondary market is somehow wrong, who would want to live in a world like that? A world [and the world of gaming] where any idea regardless of what it is even about and who it affects is only taken for face value and blindly accepted values are not challenged.
That my friends is a world without salt, because everybody knows salt leads to heart dissease. Right?
I like my salt dammet! I likes it alot! >.<
The secondary market provides hope to those of us who have lives and jobs outside of the game by allowing us to earn it where we can; in real life.
Simply stating as I have that it is going to happen anyway isn't a defeatist standpoint, it's a realist standpoint unless your game is Dark and Light and not even the koreans want to play it.
Oh you might [after a lengthy lifelong careers in politics and a final federal law pohibiting the sale of nontangible merchandise] begin to lay the foundations for a system which could possibly limit who all can and cannot do so, but you're only shifting the sand around.
Can you successfully police thousands if not millions of people in asia for what they do in a videogame in North America?
No, you cannot.
Why is this?
Because Lineage 2 and Ultima Online were not designed with the secondary market in mind. You've effectively missed the point of the initial debate on page 1 and made my point for me.
www.Divergence-Online.com
I agree completely with Roger Kipe on this - and the Korean decision. The in game property should belong to the player who invested the time, fees, and energy to get it. If that person wants to sell it, that shouldn't concern the developers at all.
Certainly it has no affect on game economy. Somebody earned the item or gold at sometime. It didn't somehow magically appear.
I think having a place where people want to trade things they have earned is a good thing, and I fylly support the secondary market.
"Life is too short to play nerfed characters."
You may find going into some area and spending 50 or 60 hours killing the same mobbies over and over again entertaining but that doesnt mean that others share your opinion. Someone once wrote that the proof of the existence of hell is repitition. Yet thats what these games encourage, mindnumbing reptition over and over again only so you keep paying a subscription fee like the other lemmings.
Fact of the matter is this: The way these games are developed the "rmt" does not take anythign away from you. Someone is still out there for those 50 or 60 hours, mind numbingly grinding away on mobbies then turning around and selling that stuff to someone else who doesnt enjoy that. If you feel a sense of accomplishment for being able to grind away to get that extra gold piece then more power to you. Someone else feels a sense of accomplishment by spending time with loved ones, playing a bit of a vid game, reading a book, having intercourse with someone other than themselves and having a good nights sleep before going to work in the morning.
You say people are missing the point of playing in the first place. I dont see how. They are able to log in, spend time with friends and log out. Isnt that what the point of these games are? I think the only one's deluding themselves are the ones that equate mindnumbing repetition with a challenge.
http://www.speedtest.net/result/7300033012
You may find going into some area and spending 50 or 60 hours killing the same mobbies over and over again entertaining but that doesnt mean that others share your opinion. Someone once wrote that the proof of the existence of hell is repitition. Yet thats what these games encourage, mindnumbing reptition over and over again only so you keep paying a subscription fee like the other lemmings.
Fact of the matter is this: The way these games are developed the "rmt" does not take anythign away from you. Someone is still out there for those 50 or 60 hours, mind numbingly grinding away on mobbies then turning around and selling that stuff to someone else who doesnt enjoy that. If you feel a sense of accomplishment for being able to grind away to get that extra gold piece then more power to you. Someone else feels a sense of accomplishment by spending time with loved ones, playing a bit of a vid game, reading a book, having intercourse with someone other than themselves and having a good nights sleep before going to work in the morning.
You say people are missing the point of playing in the first place. I dont see how. They are able to log in, spend time with friends and log out. Isnt that what the point of these games are? I think the only one's deluding themselves are the ones that equate mindnumbing repetition with a challenge.
Truth
www.Divergence-Online.com
Same old Brad - a lot of emotions and words twisting but not a single solid argument or any sign of logic. The truth is - as a developer he wants this money from secondary market but as it was mentioned already he can not openly say it. And then we have to read all this rubbish about "offended players majority".
I can not say if secondary market is good or bad. It was always there. Hidden, yes, but always there. Does it affect game-play? Hard to say. If the game is interesting, if the process of obtaining those items is fun - then you can only pity people who buy there items instead getting them by normal way. Brad's defense is for games where you have to WORK for your in-game stuff. And sorry but in these games I do not see difference between someone, who has a lot of free time and can farm for hours, and the one who has money instead and buy the thing he wants. What is the problem? Money and even ruined economy do not remove the game-way to get items - questing, hunting, crafting. If the processes of hunting and crafting are interesting - then you lose nothing because of the secondary market.
Make it interesting, make it fun, combine with some restrictions like binding stuff - and you can regulate this market without lawyers.
While I am against the whole secondary market thing; Roger Kipe is a much better debater than Mr. McQuaid if I may say so.
I'm against people who are conducting profitable business on property that they do not lease. I wouldn't walk into Disneyland and start hawking lemonade - made from their lemon trees and with cups I swiped from the soda vendors, no less. I'd be thrown out and possibly banned for life from all things Disney. I paid the admission fee, but that doesn't mean I have the right to profit on someone else's private property.
The fact that people are lined up halfway around the park to buy my cheap lemonade does not excuse the fact that I'm there getting something for spending time acquiring that which I had no intent to use for entertainment.
Here is my take on the premise of a monthly fee - some marketing exec, please tell me if I have this wrong:
You pay to log in anytime you want, but the monthly fee is based upon the average consumers' usage of the game's resources and upkeep during that month. The more that play, the more profitable it is and although more upkeep is necessary, it irons itself out and still remains profitable.
If "Player A" plays 8 hours a day, they are getting more than their fair share of entertainment value by the way the books see it. They impact the upkeep, as they are seeing more content and doing more things to cause traffic on the servers; the least impact is using bandwidth and keeping other paying players from logging in (queue times are a #$%^) - which costs money too.
"Player B," who spends maybe two hours a day playing is not affecting bandwidth very much and had less time and, arguably, less inclination to locate and report problems. they are not completely getting their money's worth, but that's where the fun factor and entertainment value comes into play. It's still cheaper than either dinner or a movie.
Then comes "Player C," who "plays" for 12 - 72 hours a stretch. They are using up their share of the monthly fee they pay in the first few days of being online. Not only that, they are continually incurring bandwidth traffic while doing things that other players normally would not do - at least not for the lengths of time with no risk being inviolved. A player looking for entertainment would only do something so mundane for a comparably short time to pay for a mount and/or gear, then move on.
"Player C" is the lemonade vendor that takes more than is offered and attempts to profit by it without being offered a job and/or offering to pay extra for the extra resources used.
Can you imagine going to Disneyland and everyone arrives at dawn and leaves at midnight? It would be the unhappiest place on earth - or the price of admission would be so astronomical that only the very rich would be so flippantly arrogant to pay.
Devil's Advocate sez:
With total control of the market where a business uses outside currency on its property, the owner can charge whatever they want for the little things that make life easier. That's why it's $2.50 for a 16 oz. soda at Disneyland. That's also why you can buy a preferred pass and go to "elite" short lines at Disneyland. Class separation at Disneyland. Walt's been rolling over in his cryo-stasis chamber over that greedy decision. This is something EQII wanted in on. Amateurs. Without security guards at the gates, no less.
It is not allowed in WoW or any other MMOG where the people running the show and the players wish to keep outside income from influencing how successful you are at a game. It's bad business to cater to the marginal amount of gamers who can't afford to buy a leg up. They will likely quit over it sooner, rather than later. When all 120,000 players that can afford to buy a level 70 toon and deck it out with full blue gear and mounts and potions are playing, what then? Welp, I'd say you cut off 5 million other players for a short gain. Got five employees? Maybe that will work for you. Otherwise, you are sunk. The other thing is... what's the freaking point? A rich man's paper, rock, scissors, mushroom? Worked for Simutronics' text games, apparently. (As a role-player, I had to cringe at such a generalization, but I'm a member of an increasingly small group of people who like to mix game mechanics with acting.)
A game needs to be designed from the beginning with tools to detect and remove those who are looking to make a living off their GAME. It should be illicit. I'm shocked that it's not already. Shouldn't give a damn? You damn better! If it gets bad enough, the wrong laws will be passed - and the government starched shirts of the U.S.A. DO NOT like the software entertainment industry. I don't want to see monthly fees go up and/or keeping the game card crowd out because they can't get or afford a credit card. I also don't want the secondary market given litigous legitimacy! Players will be next, demanding that they legally be paid for their stacks of dragon leather in cash!
On a very basic level the entire question can be reduced to this: do you agree with the idea of capitalism (free market) or not. There is nothing else.
Yeah, you can tell me it damages prices or your achievement pride - but that all goes into the same bag. The idea is, free market aka capitalism aka niche exploiting is either good or bad in the long run.
All this has nothing to do with how you feel. IMO it was quite unfair to take Brad McQuaid into this, a developer and CEO who will split many ppl into disagree or agree more based on if they like him or not. A less controversial person would have been better. I am quite sure some ppl just agree with him because they like Vanguard. Sorry, but humans often fuction that way.
Ppl are talked into moral frenzies to ban gold or item selling, without any logic. If I buy 10 castles 100 horses and 2000 golden axes with $$$ in my fav MMO, so what? It is MY matter, MY decision and no one elses. Sorry if anyone feel degraded, but such is life. Our free society is based on those liberties that I can spent my own money on every legal good, and there is no objective damage done to anyone if I buy myself an entire house full of weapons, characters or whatever. Not that I would do, but I think everyone has the RIGHT and it is no bodies business.
I think those EULAs stand on quite weak feet, and usually the companies still can enforce them because players are easily made afraid and banned. In the end, it is a matter of monetary interests and has nothing to do with morals.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
On the left corner Robin Hood, aka Kipe.
On the right corner the Sherift of NerverHam, Brad.
LOL, reading this is funny as hell. Brad is just not getting to understand what a "GAME" is. He is right on the fact that most peoples care about who get what and how. I will never care about the fact that someone who waste his money is equal as I am while I never spent any money to get there.
Just in case you didn't remember the story guys, Ivanhoe remain loyal to King Arthur, althought favorable to Robin Hood, he never really join with them. King Richard is coming back from the Crusade eventually, prolly when BioWare release their MMO. Both sides, Brad and Kipe alike will be left fighting an empty and meaningless conflict as the masses rally the King of RPGs while the Sherift is put aside, BioWare is coming back from the crusade.
A good design is impervious to Kipe black market(just as when King Arthur is naturally kind to his peasants and Robin stop fighting for them, as it become unecessary), but poorly design games that try to enforce foreign gameplays if you want to play the real gameplay, they have everything to fear. Fear of these black market is for the weaks....and the raiders!
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
I'm nto saying that I don't understand the reason some people have a problem with the secondary market.
I hated dealing with bots and hearing "USA DOG YOU GO NOW" spewing from avatars in L2 as much as the next guy but in keeping with what I believe the initial point was, the overwhelming majority of these concerns are derived from the fact that this is because the secondary market wasn't accounted for in lineage 2.
Can anyone cite an mmorpg which was designed around 2nd market transactions that has failed? Even that new Korean game "Silkroad" is doing well being f2p and has an ingame item mall for real currency sales.
It had to be said sooner or later and I don't want to open a can of worms but it's amazing how much this whole debate sounds exactly like the debate to legalize merijuana.
Pro Legalization: Legalizing marijuana has a number of benefits. People are going to buy it anyways! This way, nobody get's thrown into prison and their lives ruined over a stupid law that shouldn't be anyway, plus think of what a boost to the economy it would be!
Anti-Legalization: That doesn't change the fact that it's wrong! It just is! We don't have to explain to you why it is but it just is alright!
People who are aggressively anti-2nd market are statistically those among us who play the most and typically either have no jobs or cannot/choose not to be successful in real life. The ability for those with money irl to purchase goods and services in these games means that those people who have no lives can no longer lord over those with lives so easily and that adults [I went ahead and said it] can buy their way onto the same level.
Maybe that sounded a tad crass but necessary
www.Divergence-Online.com
If you notice I didn't ask why the sellers do it, that's obvious they are making a lot of money. They don't care about the game, they care about the coin. The one's that are beyond me are the players that justify buying with such dandies as well I don't have time to "grind" the money. I equate that to a tennis player who lets someone else hit the balls for him because he doesn't have time to practice and learn how to play as good as his opponet. If you buy the goods you aren't playing the game.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
If it quits being fun for you to play, quit playing. I used to play
board games in my younger days and when they lost their appeal I
found other entertainment to occupy my time, I would never of thought
if I slip extra counters on the boards so i'm unbeatable this game will
be so much more fun. I have left several mmorpgs that just lost their
appeal for me, because I was maxed out and raiding for gear every night
and it just got boring after a while. Why would I think that if I buy
all that gear I'll suddenly be happy? If that's all that is left to do
and I buy the gear, then I'm gonna what? Run around town saying look at
me? Bet you've seen that too huh
That's good for about 10 minutes then your done again. So I'd disagree
with you that that's when people buy. They buy because they see that
dark reaver and get it in their head that they just have to have it.
Then next patch they see that new sword and how much better it is and
just have to have it, never understanding that it's the earning of it
as much as the having it that makes it special.
http://www.speedtest.net/result/7300033012
Your equating a game's timesinks with tennis is laughable at best. You are overcompensating by thinking that you gain some sort of valuable skill by sitting there hitting f3 for 12 hours a day. Like I said earlier if any of these games actually required some amount of skill to be competitive in, the entire argument would be a moot point because all the money in the real world will not provide you with the hand eye coordination and intelligence to make proper use of a high level character or that uber piece of equipment.
The only thing that the arguments against amount to is its not fair that someone else has disposable income that they can throw away on a virtual item.
http://www.speedtest.net/result/7300033012
changed my mind
How long has WoW been out?
How many currency exchanges happen every single day on every server in the world on both sides?
Is wow ruined, or is it exactly the same as it was at launch?
The games' method of economy determines whether a game will be *ruined* by the secondary market.
WoW and L2 both have economies which are both stable and healthy despite rampant and persistant currency sales from outside sources.
The argument that said selling of currency in general harms the games economy therefore is moot.
www.Divergence-Online.com