Originally posted by severius Originally posted by Haplos It seems to me some of you miss the point, yes it's a game.......games have rules to keep them balanced so the game is fun to play. you could play monopoly and allow people to buy land and game money with rl money too, but then whoever buys all the properties is going to win and the game will no longer be fun to play. People that justify cheating, which breaking the Eula is, ruin the game for those that play by the rules. Want to play with rl money, play the stock market and leave the games alone. Some of the reasons to play are to find all the treasures, explore the world and grow big. Why screw up the game and jump ahead? I used to think anyone could see this, I have since quit two games that condoned in game trading that ran rampant, and it seems like it's just getting worse. I won't play one that doesn't try to stop this and control it as much as possible and if that means not playing so be it. If you buy then I guess your one of the ones that ruin the game for those of us that don't.
If you notice I didn't ask why the sellers do it, that's obvious they are making a lot of money. They don't care about the game, they care about the coin. The one's that are beyond me are the players that justify buying with such dandies as well I don't have time to "grind" the money. I equate that to a tennis player who lets someone else hit the balls for him because he doesn't have time to practice and learn how to play as good as his opponet. If you buy the goods you aren't playing the game.
How precisely does it affect you though? I have heard this argument hundreds of times but lets be 100% honest here. They arent hacking the game system and stealing your sword of uberness to sell to joe schmoe, if player alpha buys x amount of in game currency unless they tell you you would have no idea. As long as its not through a dupe or an exploit then there is no noticeable affect on the gameworld as a whole (apart from some of the angry farmers that you occasionally run into in games like lineage 2, however there are just as many players spawn camping etc that are just as rude if not moreso.
Your equating a game's timesinks with tennis is laughable at best. You are overcompensating by thinking that you gain some sort of valuable skill by sitting there hitting f3 for 12 hours a day. Like I said earlier if any of these games actually required some amount of skill to be competitive in, the entire argument would be a moot point because all the money in the real world will not provide you with the hand eye coordination and intelligence to make proper use of a high level character or that uber piece of equipment.
The only thing that the arguments against amount to is its not fair that someone else has disposable income that they can throw away on a virtual item.
We can get very off the wall about it, and I can say it also doesn't bother me if someone breaks into your house and kills you and your family, because I don't know you why should I care. Because its wrong, illegal, etc are some reasons why, but Reidan says it much better than I do so check his post. The bottom line, its not just the economy that uber sword is worth much more to people if they have to work hard for it because then it's rare and unique. If everyone with 10 bucks or whatever can get one, then I would lose the incentive to go for it. Do that too much and you lose the incentive to play. I should be noble minded and not worry if others cheat to get the gear because I know in my heart mines earned? If that's truly how you would feel then we will never understand each other so I'll just agree to disagree with you.
BTW If it was just the money i'd buy everything, but then why would I play?
RMT is the way of the future for MMO's. There has never been ANY impirical evidence presented by ANYONE that RMT actually hurts games, game companies or communities.
This is the latest in a long line of "I think it does" statements by another of the hundreds who have gone before.
Show us your statistics to support your argument is all I can say.
The burden of proof is on the person making the claims.
If your going to say Secondary markets hurt MMO's then put up or STFU.
So now you can go ahead and flame me.... but the one thing you WONT BE ABLE TO DO, is support your own argument with facts. Good luck with that.
The argument on a philosophical level can be made very convincing for either side. However, I was dissapointed that neither side touched on the destructive force rmt are within a persitent game world. They monopolize NMs that drop some key equipment, which forces a casual gamer to a) either buy the peice of gear or b) spend an excessive amount of time to try to out camp the rmt for an item the game makers did not intend to be made that difficult. In a very literal sense the rmt create the demand for their service themselves and then claim that the demand is there, we are providing a service... So, which came first the chicken or the rmt?
MTV recently had an rmt news moment where an rmt owner/operator was stating his case. At one point the rmt, that his teams of people do nothing to interfere with in game players... Maybe this particular rmt was not lying, maybe his teams do have ethics, but he would be an extreme minority of the rmt groups that you will encounter in games such as these. On FFXI I have had rmt out right steal mobs that cost us millions of gil or days worth of hours to spawn. In one of these cases an rmt tried to justify his actions by saying that other ls's steal mobs from thme. Well, good, but either way, it wasn't us, so by his logic if some random guy punched me in the face while walking down the street I would be justified in pnching the next completely random guy in the face I saw walking down the street? I'd like to meet a few of these rmt and test some of their logic my way.
Originally posted by EThanC Originally posted by Haplos It seems to me some of you miss the point, yes it's a game.......games have rules to keep them balanced so the game is fun to play. you could play monopoly and allow people to buy land and game money with rl money too, but then whoever buys all the properties is going to win and the game will no longer be fun to play. People that justify cheating, which breaking the Eula is, ruin the game for those that play by the rules. Want to play with rl money, play the stock market and leave the games alone. Some of the reasons to play are to find all the treasures, explore the world and grow big. Why screw up the game and jump ahead? I used to think anyone could see this, I have since quit two games that condoned in game trading that ran rampant, and it seems like it's just getting worse. I won't play one that doesn't try to stop this and control it as much as possible and if that means not playing so be it. If you buy then I guess your one of the ones that ruin the game for those of us that don't.
If you notice I didn't ask why the sellers do it, that's obvious they are making a lot of money. They don't care about the game, they care about the coin. The one's that are beyond me are the players that justify buying with such dandies as well I don't have time to "grind" the money. I equate that to a tennis player who lets someone else hit the balls for him because he doesn't have time to practice and learn how to play as good as his opponet. If you buy the goods you aren't playing the game.
How long has WoW been out?
How many currency exchanges happen every single day on every server in the world on both sides?
Is wow ruined, or is it exactly the same as it was at launch?
The games' method of economy determines whether a game will be *ruined* by the secondary market.
WoW and L2 both have economies which are both stable and healthy despite rampant and persistant currency sales from outside sources.
The argument that said selling of currency in general harms the games economy therefore is moot.
Wow was fun to grow in, but I left it much to early to say.
L2 was a really great game, I left it because of the bots/buyers, if you don't think it affected the economy your very wrong.
Originally posted by Reidan Originally posted by severiusHow is someone working 40 hours a week in the real world making enough disposable income to be able to buy a sword of mobslaying +10 any worse than some punk kid that cuts school to play a video game for 40 hours a week? What you seem to fail to realize is that none of these games require much in the way of skill or thought, just time. If it were a skill or thought based game then people wouldnt make such a stink about someone else buying that sword or that pile of gold because money and items can not compensate for a complete lack of skill.
You may find going into some area and spending 50 or 60 hours killing the same mobbies over and over again entertaining but that doesnt mean that others share your opinion. Someone once wrote that the proof of the existence of hell is repitition. Yet thats what these games encourage, mindnumbing reptition over and over again only so you keep paying a subscription fee like the other lemmings.
Fact of the matter is this: The way these games are developed the "rmt" does not take anythign away from you. Someone is still out there for those 50 or 60 hours, mind numbingly grinding away on mobbies then turning around and selling that stuff to someone else who doesnt enjoy that. If you feel a sense of accomplishment for being able to grind away to get that extra gold piece then more power to you. Someone else feels a sense of accomplishment by spending time with loved ones, playing a bit of a vid game, reading a book, having intercourse with someone other than themselves and having a good nights sleep before going to work in the morning.
You say people are missing the point of playing in the first place. I dont see how. They are able to log in, spend time with friends and log out. Isnt that what the point of these games are? I think the only one's deluding themselves are the ones that equate mindnumbing repetition with a challenge. Even tho this is quite well written, and that I agree with the fact that honnest people -could- possibly benefit from the secondary market, your idea as a whole does not stand...If someone is not enjoying a part of the gameplay, then he needs to find another game. As simple as that. Paying to jump over a whole part of a game to (most the of the time) PvP (since if the beginning of the game is mindnumbing, often is the end) -That- is missing the point of playing. And if the "Mindnumbing repetition" is not a challenge, then why -pay- to avoid it in the first place? It might not always be a challenge for your skills, but it is for your -will- and your -determination-.The secondary market -is- wrong, legaly and moraly. Not only as those companies stealing from the game creators, but they allow cheating within the community, and whatever people say about it ,that is cheating. You spend less time into the game, you've got good chance to be weaker than those who had more time to spend. If you judge paying is required to have an equal ground with someone who have more time at hand, then you are not only wasting your money on a game you've allready lost interest of, not only harming the ingame economy and community, but you're doing so of an illegal manner. If you do not have enough time for the game, don't play the game.You know what? I feel like beating FF7 . Hope my friend let me borrow his memory card, why bother scrolling through the repetitive combats, Sephiroth here I come !~Peace
First, thankyou
Now, I do not see how the secondary market is stealing from the company. They pay their subscriber fees just like everyone else, they arent duping nor hacking to get the items to sell and are not providing items that do not exist within the game world that they are farming in. I do not see the "theft" that people speak of here. Granted the game designers could, if they so desired, offer a marketplace service and increase their own revenues but apart from some asian mmo's and sony with their exchange servers this isnt the case. Now if this happens on those aforementioned games/servers then there may be grounds for calling theft. Otherwise it is filling in the demand that exists.
Now, I will agree that if someone does not enjoy the grinds etc then yes they should most likely quit. However, for example lets use wow here, Joe has a family, a good job, and friends and distant family that plays as well. Those friends and family, because of whatever reason, have more time to spend in game than Joe does. Joe only plays the game to be with those friends and family. What harm is there in buying the gold to purchase an epic mount or whatever so he can go on one adventure or raid per week and not drag down those friends and family? His skills are as good as the next player, he knows his role, he knows what other's roles are. The only thing Joe is doing here is maximizing the enjoyment from spending time with family and friends. In essence playing a game to play a game, not work in a game for a hundred hours to play for a couple hours.
Now, for the most part the secondary market is against most EULA's. No argument here. But the strength of EULA's has yet to be tried in court. Most every EULA out there violates state and federal laws on some level, and regardless of agreeing to it or not there are some rights that consumers can not sign away on regardless of the legalease put into those agreements. It is not illegal and morality about it is something for a philosopher to discuss and I doubt that any of us here have the time to really get down into the morality of it while putting our own prejudices and motives out of the equation.
How someone spends thier money is not for any of us to decide. Someone spending $400k on a ferrari seems to me to be silly but to that person it is a very valid purchase. Unless the money being bought and sold is created through dupes etc it has no effect on the ingame economies. For one thing the very design of the ingame economy is flawed. You can not have a vibrant thriving economy without a limit on the amount of money available at any given time. But NO one wants to play a game and kill super badbutt boss mob alpha only to loot an IOU stating "Sorry there is no available funds in the game to pay you for your effort. Please cash this in at your nearest bank when funds are available." As to the community aspect, I have met some farmers that were rude and some that were very kind and generous, just like the players who can be as disruptive to the game community or even moreso.
Originally posted by Sowiho The problem with the secundary market is, it will destroy the ingame economic. if a sword was woth 100gp to begin with, then after the second market has done their thing it will soon be 10000gp, because ppl just go out and buy the gp with real money. Suddenly the normal players can't afford this sword because it will be impossibel to earn theese kind of gold in the game. if you look at linage2. the secondary market has completly made this game about bots. who is a bot and who's not. i think its sad that you have to pay for a monthly fee (thats ok) but besides that you have to buy money on the side just to get a decent sword, these games is about companies earning money not players having some good fun. sorry for the grammer
Sowiho, I like the point you made but you dont look at it from the other point of view. Sure, you're having to put out 10000gp instead of 100gp but you're able to sell a piece of armor for 10000 instead of 100gp. It drives the prices up for everything. Not just what you are wanting to buy.
Example being. I'll use FFXI as that's the game I play the most. If I want a sword that's 75k gil I know that it would be 20k if it wasn't for the gil sellers. But I can craft a Bronze Bed for about 2k worth of materials and sell it for 35k. So after about 2 beds, I can buy that sword. Now, whent he gil buyers/sellers got banned the market bottomed out. Who gets left holding the bag? Who really gets hurt in this? The ones who bought that sword at 75k and now wanna sell it but have to at 20k. Gil Sellers/Buyers are a given. They will be back in FFXI and prices will go back up. Why kill the economy and the game for the people who choose not to buy gil when the punishment for the seller and buyer is a mere ban. I'd take a ban over a crushed economy any day.
Now, am I defending the gil buyers/seller? Absolutely not. I think the market would be much more stable without them but they will come back to the game. It's not stoppable. I see FFXI's point in that banning that many people will stop some but only people like myself who've grinded and grinded and just have entertained the thought of gil buying. I've definately been scared straight but that's me. The ones who are going to do it will do it. Bans be damned. So what is the answer? I think it's a lose-lose situation. I think that mass bannings are a bad idea but perhaps periodical smaller bannings. Slowly taking the bought gil out of the market where it can recover easier and with progression instead of just this void that is created.
Right now, FFXI has become less fun because now when i'm crafting, i'm having to go out and farm every little resource to the item i'm making just so I can keep the cost of the materials down because my profit margin becomes thinner. If I buy the stuff for around 2-2.5k and sell for 10k It's hardly worth the effort and time put into it and that's if it crafts first time with no materials lost on "breaks". The Guild Wars community and economy is able to take the Aftermarket hit with the Platinum buyers (and I have a theory that they are somehow the ones selling the said Platinum) because it lets Supply and Demand take effect. When a new weapon hits the scene it's 100K. If you are patient and can wait about 4-5 months it's 15k.
All in all, i hate the fact there is a market for this stuff, but its going to happen. No matter what you do. I dont see a problem in it if the seller isn't using some mega exploit. I look down at the people who do it a little because when they sport the new armor they brag they got the new armor. Not mentioning that they did nothing for it.
(As a side note, I just wanna say I am so happy now that I've found a place where people can discuss topics such as this without resorting to the "Yeah, well you're a nub!!!11!11one!1!". Thank you everyone for instilling my faith in the time honored tradition of debate. I'm glad to know it can happen online without insults flying across the room)
EVE - Sharvala FFXI - Shazamalicious Guild Wars - Xavier Lucifer & Charlize the Necro "Ranged...stuck...tree...15 random words... suck... noob fanboy... I MAKE GUIDE!"
Originally posted by MLecl0001 I have purchased in game money with real life money in WoW, EQ2, EvE and RF Online. It was never much, always just 1 time in each game. Then when I went and bought some gold for WoW I stopped and thought to myself "Self why is it everytime I buy in game money I quit soon after?" And there it was, the simple fact of the matter is, if getting in game money is too boring for me to do it myself than I already lost interest in the game. So now I will not buy in game money with real money again. If I cant get in game money and have fun doing it, then its time for me to move on. And in all honesty I may just have to move on from MMOs, because MMOs are stuck in a rut. They are all the same thing, grinds, they all just hide it differently.
There is no such thing as innovative, unique, and risky in the gaming world anymore. Its all mass produced crap, like McDonalds. Oh well, at least I can always play Pac man and pong, god knows they are simple games but I still love my classics, because they were fun.
Yes you are right, people think the symptom is the disease. Sigh.
Originally posted by Mr.Knowitall LOL Talk about flogging a dead horse. RMT is the way of the future for MMO's. There has never been ANY impirical evidence presented by ANYONE that RMT actually hurts games, game companies or communities. This is the latest in a long line of "I think it does" statements by another of the hundreds who have gone before. Show us your statistics to support your argument is all I can say. The burden of proof is on the person making the claims. If your going to say Secondary markets hurt MMO's then put up or STFU. So now you can go ahead and flame me.... but the one thing you WONT BE ABLE TO DO, is support your own argument with facts. Good luck with that.
Aah - the old smoking doesnt cause cancer argument.
Why dont you show us some evidence that it doesnt harm the communities, drive up prices of items, affect the economy of games.
If I want a sword that's 75k gil I know that it would be 20k if it wasn't for the gil sellers.
See thats what Im talking about.
When you use the word "know" do you mean "know" as in "suspect" or "know" as in "I have evidence to support this assertion ?"
Like for example a server where gil selling is much lower and the same item sells at a corespondingly lower price.
I mean you people cant just keep making these claims and basing it soley on you "gut feelings"
Ive been seeing this argument now since UO.... thats almost 10 years people!! I have yet to see a single table, graph, study, server statistcal set or anything that substantiates in any way the claim that out of game sales affect the in game prices of goods.
Now dont get me wrong... I can see the logic behind the argument, but I can see the the logic behind the argument that more cash in the economy = inflation. But MMO economies arnt RL economies and lack of evidence = shakey argument.
I have still yet to hear one strongly anti gold farming person explain sensibly why it matters to the game economy whether my part time character grinds the gold in game or some kid in China. NPC's in most MMO's have unlimited funds and supply and demand economics do not apply. Spiders guts are worth the same whether there are 1 or 4 milllion of them on sale.there is no comparison with RL economics whatsoever.
The whole argument revolves around the completely flawed notion that if you play the game yourself it somehow has a different effect on the games economy than if someone else plays it for you.
Originally posted by EThanC Because Lineage 2 and Ultima Online were not designed with the secondary market in mind. You've effectively missed the point of the initial debate on page 1 and made my point for me.
I dont think I did - you missed my point.
If you are making a game with the secondary market in mind - then you better not change or remove any item I pay money for or I will sue you in court and win.
Most arguments I have read (I'll admit I didn't go through all the posts) have been basing themselves on speculations and hypothesising the RMT's effect on in-game economy. They are valid, but allow me to present a different point of view.
As a player, I feel as if my work to get a rare item loses all of its value if the next bloke can simply ask daddy for the credit card and simply buy the same item I put in X weeks of work to get. Personally, I believe that RMT is harmul the normal player's gaming experience. It's pretty much the same as cheating, only it's "legal" because you paid money for it...
Originally posted by EThanC Because Lineage 2 and Ultima Online were not designed with the secondary market in mind. You've effectively missed the point of the initial debate on page 1 and made my point for me.
I dont think I did - you missed my point.
If you are making a game with the secondary market in mind - then you better not change or remove any item I pay money for or I will sue you in court and win.
Wrong
End User License Agreement
My arguement is that L2 got sued because they simply neglected to anticipate and contort to the secondary market.
If they had anticipated the secondary market, I'm sure there would be a few lines in their EULA simply stating that all ingame items are the expressed property of NCSoft and that purchasing ingame currency through any means not sanctioned by NCSoft voids any and all claims to legal ramification at the loss of said currency and items.
Obviously it would need lawyered up some, but the point is they didn't take the possibility of this happening into account and thus suffered accordingly.
The problem is that developers short-sightedly refuse to accept the secondary market into their games equation and then whine about the reprocussions.
With a good enough EULA, I could sue you very easily for intellectual theft and win. The reason you don't hear about Blizzard sueing people about the amount of Gold being sold on websites around the world is because like most people on this forum, they've accepted the secondary market as an eventuality and realise just how much it's benefitting them right now. To due even one individual would cost money by itself not to mention the ramifications it would have on the playerbase. Then multiply that by the millions of people who do it and you have the end of WoW as we know it.
Just in case you didn't remember the story guys, Ivanhoe remain loyal to King Arthur, althought favorable to Robin Hood, he never really join with them. King Richard is coming back from the Crusade eventually
its back to history 101 for you - you are mixing your fables, folk tales and history all over the place.
Seriously - If people dont have time to play a game then they should play something else. Play a game designed for casual play rather than a grindfest.
So you are designing a game where you plan to sell me items - and want me to sign a EULA where you reserve the right to delete or modify the item I purchase whenever you feel like it.
Luckily for you there are plenty of stupid people around to play your game. I wont be one of them.
So you are designing a game where you plan to sell me items - and want me to sign a EULA where you reserve the right to delete or modify the item I purchase whenever you feel like it.
Luckily for you there are plenty of stupid people around to play your game. I wont be one of them.
And you're one of them friend because you agree to those terms every single time you log into World of Warcraft, Everquest and practically every mmorpg out there aside from a few of the asian ones such as the Lineage franchise.
Future proof that absolutely nobody reads the EULA that you agree to every single time you log in :P
A. All title, ownership rights and intellectual property rights in and to the Game and all copies thereof (including without limitation any titles, computer code, themes, objects, characters, character names, stories, dialog, catch phrases, locations, concepts, artwork, character inventories, structural or landscape designs, animations, sounds, musical compositions and recordings, audio-visual effects, storylines, character likenesses, methods of operation, moral rights, and any related documentation) are owned or licensed by Blizzard. The Game is protected by the copyright laws of the United States, international treaties and conventions, and other laws. The Game may contain materials licensed by third parties, and the licensors of those materials may enforce their rights in the event of any violation of this License Agreement.
13. Changes to the Agreement. Blizzard reserves the right, at its sole discretion, to change, modify, add to, supplement or delete any of the terms and conditions of this License Agreement when Blizzard upgrades the Game Client, effective upon prior notice as follows: Blizzard will post notification of any such changes to this License Agreement on the World of Warcraft website and will post the revised version of this License Agreement in this location, and may provide such other notice as Blizzard may elect in its sole discretion. If any future changes to this License Agreement are unacceptable to you or cause you to no longer be in compliance with this License Agreement, you may terminate this License Agreement in accordance with Section 5 herein. Your installation and use of any updates or modifications to the Game or your continued use of the Game following notice of changes to this Agreement will demonstrate your acceptance of any and all such changes. Blizzard may change, modify, suspend, or discontinue any aspect of the Game at any time. Blizzard may also impose limits on certain features or restrict your access to parts or all of the Game without notice orliability. You have no interest, monetary or otherwise, in any feature or content contained in the Game.
If it quits being fun for you to play, quit playing. I used to play board games in my younger days and when they lost their appeal I found other entertainment to occupy my time, I would never of thought if I slip extra counters on the boards so i'm unbeatable this game will be so much more fun. I have left several mmorpgs that just lost their appeal for me, because I was maxed out and raiding for gear every night and it just got boring after a while. Why would I think that if I buy all that gear I'll suddenly be happy? If that's all that is left to do and I buy the gear, then I'm gonna what? Run around town saying look at me? Bet you've seen that too huh. That's good for about 10 minutes then your done again. So I'd disagree with you that that's when people buy. They buy because they see that dark reaver and get it in their head that they just have to have it. Then next patch they see that new sword and how much better it is and just have to have it, never understanding that it's the earning of it as much as the having it that makes it special.
I've always felt that if the mmorpg developers want to stop and get rid of RMT and are really serious about it then they need to change what is the primary cause of it. That's is the game design itself. The game design itself is what causes people to take part in RMT at times.
I don't believe that RMT messes up the game economy either. The game design itself does that fine on it's own. Economies get screwed up so quickly no matter what. If there is anyone to blame on that it's the developers for not properly making sure players would be able to afford things at the level they should be using them. There is a reason people buy gold online. It's because they can't get enough for the items they need in the game any given time at their level. The reason for that is the game design itself. It all leads back to the game design and the flaws in it. Mostly the time sinks that are put into the game.
You slow down the rate of money drops, keep the amount loot sells to NPCs (not reasonable at all no matter what game I've played) very low, and make the system item based to keep playing longer then you have to accept the negative result of it. I can understand them wanting people to keep playing longer but by forcing this slow down on the actual gameplay people aren't going to stand for it. Which is why people are actually willing to pay month for items and money. They don't have the time to waste getting it in game cause the rates are so low. The economy is usually messed up as well and not by RMT systems but by the extreme powergamers or just people that generally have a LOT of time on their hands. There is no inital guideline to determining what something is worth so you go through a lot of ranges until it gets to the point where a few (the ones that play the most) can afford certain prices and things tend to stick after a while until something better comes along and either the price drops or those items just aren't collected anymore. Then the system continues but with newer items instead.
At least this is what I've seen from my exeriences over the years. Putting all the blame on RMT services isn't right. Yes they do add to things but that's after the fact I think since the problem starts before they even enter the picture. Don't blame those taking advantage of the situation but the actual cause of it if you are really serious about stopping things or really slowing it down. However I don't think companies are willing to do that at all. They want the time sinks in. They want people to play for long periods of time with very low money drop rates. They want things to be slowed down to the point where you struggle to get to the next level and then repeat. As long as players keep playing they get money. Which is why I think they don't mind the RMT in private. They know those people will buy more accounts with his more money as well. They'll never get serious about solving the problem cause that means losing money on both fronts if they did and they are willing to take that risk.
Originally posted by Effect I've always felt that if the mmorpg developers want to stop and get rid of RMT and are really serious about it then they need to change what is the primary cause of it. That's is the game design itself. The game design itself is what causes people to take part in RMT at times.
I don't believe that RMT messes up the game economy either. The game design itself does that fine on it's own. Economies get screwed up so quickly no matter what. If there is anyone to blame on that it's the developers for not properly making sure players would be able to afford things at the level they should be using them. There is a reason people buy gold online. It's because they can't get enough for the items they need in the game any given time at their level. The reason for that is the game design itself. It all leads back to the game design and the flaws in it. Mostly the time sinks that are put into the game.
You slow down the rate of money drops, keep the amount loot sells to NPCs (not reasonable at all no matter what game I've played) very low, and make the system item based to keep playing longer then you have to accept the negative result of it. I can understand them wanting people to keep playing longer but by forcing this slow down on the actual gameplay people aren't going to stand for it. Which is why people are actually willing to pay month for items and money. They don't have the time to waste getting it in game cause the rates are so low. The economy is usually messed up as well and not by RMT systems but by the extreme powergamers or just people that generally have a LOT of time on their hands. There is no inital guideline to determining what something is worth so you go through a lot of ranges until it gets to the point where a few (the ones that play the most) can afford certain prices and things tend to stick after a while until something better comes along and either the price drops or those items just aren't collected anymore. Then the system continues but with newer items instead.
At least this is what I've seen from my exeriences over the years. Putting all the blame on RMT services isn't right. Yes they do add to things but that's after the fact I think since the problem starts before they even enter the picture. Don't blame those taking advantage of the situation but the actual cause of it if you are really serious about stopping things or really slowing it down. However I don't think companies are willing to do that at all. They want the time sinks in. They want people to play for long periods of time with very low money drop rates. They want things to be slowed down to the point where you struggle to get to the next level and then repeat. As long as players keep playing they get money. Which is why I think they don't mind the RMT in private. They know those people will buy more accounts with his more money as well. They'll never get serious about solving the problem cause that means losing money on both fronts if they did and they are willing to take that risk.
At least this is how I see things.
I couldn't agree more.
The next generation mmorpg has the job of both anticipating the secondary market into their game and making sure that although buying ingame items with real world money is an option, the economy must maintain that buying money and so forth is not REQUIRED to advance your character.
If you can pull that off, you will prosper. At least, that's my understanding.
Originally posted by EThanC Because Lineage 2 and Ultima Online were not designed with the secondary market in mind. You've effectively missed the point of the initial debate on page 1 and made my point for me.
I dont think I did - you missed my point.
If you are making a game with the secondary market in mind - then you better not change or remove any item I pay money for or I will sue you in court and win.
Wrong
End User License Agreement
My arguement is that L2 got sued because they simply neglected to anticipate and contort to the secondary market.
If they had anticipated the secondary market, I'm sure there would be a few lines in their EULA simply stating that all ingame items are the expressed property of NCSoft and that purchasing ingame currency through any means not sanctioned by NCSoft voids any and all claims to legal ramification at the loss of said currency and items.
Obviously it would need lawyered up some, but the point is they didn't take the possibility of this happening into account and thus suffered accordingly.
The problem is that developers short-sightedly refuse to accept the secondary market into their games equation and then whine about the reprocussions.
With a good enough EULA, I could sue you very easily for intellectual theft and win. The reason you don't hear about Blizzard sueing people about the amount of Gold being sold on websites around the world is because like most people on this forum, they've accepted the secondary market as an eventuality and realise just how much it's benefitting them right now. To due even one individual would cost money by itself not to mention the ramifications it would have on the playerbase. Then multiply that by the millions of people who do it and you have the end of WoW as we know it.
Pretend you have the perfect EULA, that does not cancel the law or how some judge might interpret the law. It wont' be long before issues of property will come into play in our court system. There are people who debate any number of potential issues in games such as hate crimes by use of hate speak. Could stealing an item in an FFA game cross into the real world? Some legal professionals think it should be that way.
Once taxation comes into play, that will make a real world impact.
Originally posted by Effect I've always felt that if the mmorpg developers want to stop and get rid of RMT and are really serious about it then they need to change what is the primary cause of it. That's is the game design itself. The game design itself is what causes people to take part in RMT at times.
Thats all there is. You summed up the entire problem 100%
We marvel at the developers ability to create virtual worlds, but allow them to completely abbrogate thier responsibility to secure them in a way that makes it enjoyable for all players.
bah.... there are more people living in a fantasy realm in this thread than playing WoW.... this argument is so last century....
This is a pointless discussion! The EULA says to not sell or buy in-game material including items and accounts. When you do this you break the rules and we ALL know what happens when you break the rules. Your a cheater and should be banned and hopefully those secondary markets will be sued for going against the EULA they signed and broke with full intention to make profit off it as well!
This is a clear case of stealing as well! in the EULA it says you DO NOT own anything in-game, you are just paying for the entertainment, and everything in-game is the property of the company! selling something that is not your IS STEALING MONEY!
this is like going bowling and taking the pins, the shoes, and the bowling ball (if you didnt bring your own) to sell to some one else and complaining you payed for your time bowling and you own those now because you put in the time and money into the game.
And you're one of them friend because you agree to those terms every single time you log into World of Warcraft, Everquest and practically every mmorpg out there aside from a few of the asian ones such as the Lineage franchise.
Sorry to prove you wrong but the only MMORPG like game I play is Guild Wars - and since I dont pay real $ for in game items (other the the original game purchase) they can change what they like and it doesnt bother me at all.
But the point I was trying to make is if you sell someone something, then change it - certainly here in Australia I think that violates our fair trading laws, so you have a problem.
When you sell goods you must make certain that they fulfil certain conditions and warranties which are implied under the TPA. You must be sure that goods:
* are of merchantable qualitythat is, goods need to reach a basic level of quality given the price of the goods and any description that is provided with the goods * are fit for the purpose or job that the consumer made known to you or that are self-evident * match any description or sample given to the consumer whether in promotional material, over the phone, in person, on a website or on labelling or packaging * are free from defects and faults.
You must also be sure that any goods you sell are clear of finance or encumbrances not disclosed to the consumer so that the consumer can have free title to the goods.
i.e if I buy a sword matching description A and then you change it so it no longer matches description A you are in violation of the Trade practices Act and have a problem.
Originally posted by WooterLord Most arguments I have read (I'll admit I didn't go through all the posts) have been basing themselves on speculations and hypothesising the RMT's effect on in-game economy. They are valid, but allow me to present a different point of view.
As a player, I feel as if my work to get a rare item loses all of its value if the next bloke can simply ask daddy for the credit card and simply buy the same item I put in X weeks of work to get. Personally, I believe that RMT is harmul the normal player's gaming experience. It's pretty much the same as cheating, only it's "legal" because you paid money for it...
Why is it that you have to validate yourself by what someone else has? Alot of people have been trying to use the real world to validate their points so, I guess it is my turn. Does the fact that someone that lives down the street from you not have to work because his parents are well enough off that they supply him with a home etc devalue the amount of work that you yourself put in day in and day out? Does the fact that many of my college friends had parents that put them through school while I worked 2 jobs to get through college devalue my hard work etc? Far from it, it actually reinforces what I have accomplished compared to them. To me personally your argument holds absolutely no water, and in fact speaks to many different issues, none of which have to do with gaming.
So you are designing a game where you plan to sell me items - and want me to sign a EULA where you reserve the right to delete or modify the item I purchase whenever you feel like it.
Luckily for you there are plenty of stupid people around to play your game. I wont be one of them.
And you're one of them friend because you agree to those terms every single time you log into World of Warcraft, Everquest and practically every mmorpg out there aside from a few of the asian ones such as the Lineage franchise.
Future proof that absolutely nobody reads the EULA that you agree to every single time you log in :P
A. All title, ownership rights and intellectual property rights in and to the Game and all copies thereof (including without limitation any titles, computer code, themes, objects, characters, character names, stories, dialog, catch phrases, locations, concepts, artwork, character inventories, structural or landscape designs, animations, sounds, musical compositions and recordings, audio-visual effects, storylines, character likenesses, methods of operation, moral rights, and any related documentation) are owned or licensed by Blizzard. The Game is protected by the copyright laws of the United States, international treaties and conventions, and other laws. The Game may contain materials licensed by third parties, and the licensors of those materials may enforce their rights in the event of any violation of this License Agreement.
13. Changes to the Agreement. Blizzard reserves the right, at its sole discretion, to change, modify, add to, supplement or delete any of the terms and conditions of this License Agreement when Blizzard upgrades the Game Client, effective upon prior notice as follows: Blizzard will post notification of any such changes to this License Agreement on the World of Warcraft website and will post the revised version of this License Agreement in this location, and may provide such other notice as Blizzard may elect in its sole discretion. If any future changes to this License Agreement are unacceptable to you or cause you to no longer be in compliance with this License Agreement, you may terminate this License Agreement in accordance with Section 5 herein. Your installation and use of any updates or modifications to the Game or your continued use of the Game following notice of changes to this Agreement will demonstrate your acceptance of any and all such changes. Blizzard may change, modify, suspend, or discontinue any aspect of the Game at any time. Blizzard may also impose limits on certain features or restrict your access to parts or all of the Game without notice orliability. You have no interest, monetary or otherwise, in any feature or content contained in the Game.
You do realize that NONE of the above has been tried and tested in a court of law. You are assuming that clicking I agree binds you to this agreement when the fact of the matter is that WoW's agreement and pretty much every single one of them for every mmo on the market is in violation of several state and municipality laws throughout the United States, let alone the world in general. Also, you do realize that there are consumer protection laws that completely and utterly invalidate any EULA because they have you agreeing to set aside rights that by law you may not set aside. Just because its printed doesnt mean you should believe it, let alone because its filled with legalease worded in such a way to discourage the average gamer from researching exactly what rights they do have or dont.
For example in regards to your underlined part, which I assume you did because you are trying to make a point; In china recently laws were passed protecting those virtual items and the individuals that possess them. If you are in china, hack my account and steal my broadsword of uberness +20 you will be jailed. This in and of itself sets precedence that contrary to what blizzard wants you to believe, you do have ownership of your items.
Comments
Your equating a game's timesinks with tennis is laughable at best. You are overcompensating by thinking that you gain some sort of valuable skill by sitting there hitting f3 for 12 hours a day. Like I said earlier if any of these games actually required some amount of skill to be competitive in, the entire argument would be a moot point because all the money in the real world will not provide you with the hand eye coordination and intelligence to make proper use of a high level character or that uber piece of equipment.
The only thing that the arguments against amount to is its not fair that someone else has disposable income that they can throw away on a virtual item.
We can get very off the wall about it, and I can say it also doesn't
bother me if someone breaks into your house and kills you and your
family, because I don't know you why should I care. Because its wrong,
illegal, etc are some reasons why, but Reidan says it much better than I do so check his post. The bottom line, its not just the economy that uber sword is worth much more to people if they have to work hard for it because then it's rare and unique. If everyone with 10 bucks or whatever can get one, then I would lose the incentive to go for it. Do that too much and you lose the incentive to play. I should be noble minded and not worry if others cheat to get the gear because I know in my heart mines earned? If that's truly how you would feel then we will never understand each other so I'll just agree to disagree with you.
BTW If it was just the money i'd buy everything, but then why would I play?
LOL
Talk about flogging a dead horse.
RMT is the way of the future for MMO's. There has never been ANY impirical evidence presented by ANYONE that RMT actually hurts games, game companies or communities.
This is the latest in a long line of "I think it does" statements by another of the hundreds who have gone before.
Show us your statistics to support your argument is all I can say.
The burden of proof is on the person making the claims.
If your going to say Secondary markets hurt MMO's then put up or STFU.
So now you can go ahead and flame me.... but the one thing you WONT BE ABLE TO DO, is support your own argument with facts. Good luck with that.
The argument on a philosophical level can be made very convincing for either side. However, I was dissapointed that neither side touched on the destructive force rmt are within a persitent game world. They monopolize NMs that drop some key equipment, which forces a casual gamer to a) either buy the peice of gear or b) spend an excessive amount of time to try to out camp the rmt for an item the game makers did not intend to be made that difficult. In a very literal sense the rmt create the demand for their service themselves and then claim that the demand is there, we are providing a service... So, which came first the chicken or the rmt?
MTV recently had an rmt news moment where an rmt owner/operator was stating his case. At one point the rmt, that his teams of people do nothing to interfere with in game players... Maybe this particular rmt was not lying, maybe his teams do have ethics, but he would be an extreme minority of the rmt groups that you will encounter in games such as these. On FFXI I have had rmt out right steal mobs that cost us millions of gil or days worth of hours to spawn. In one of these cases an rmt tried to justify his actions by saying that other ls's steal mobs from thme. Well, good, but either way, it wasn't us, so by his logic if some random guy punched me in the face while walking down the street I would be justified in pnching the next completely random guy in the face I saw walking down the street? I'd like to meet a few of these rmt and test some of their logic my way.
How long has WoW been out?
How many currency exchanges happen every single day on every server in the world on both sides?
Is wow ruined, or is it exactly the same as it was at launch?
The games' method of economy determines whether a game will be *ruined* by the secondary market.
WoW and L2 both have economies which are both stable and healthy despite rampant and persistant currency sales from outside sources.
The argument that said selling of currency in general harms the games economy therefore is moot.
Wow was fun to grow in, but I left it much to early to say.
L2 was a really great game, I left it because of the bots/buyers, if you don't think it affected the economy your very wrong.
First, thankyou
Now, I do not see how the secondary market is stealing from the company. They pay their subscriber fees just like everyone else, they arent duping nor hacking to get the items to sell and are not providing items that do not exist within the game world that they are farming in. I do not see the "theft" that people speak of here. Granted the game designers could, if they so desired, offer a marketplace service and increase their own revenues but apart from some asian mmo's and sony with their exchange servers this isnt the case. Now if this happens on those aforementioned games/servers then there may be grounds for calling theft. Otherwise it is filling in the demand that exists.
Now, I will agree that if someone does not enjoy the grinds etc then yes they should most likely quit. However, for example lets use wow here, Joe has a family, a good job, and friends and distant family that plays as well. Those friends and family, because of whatever reason, have more time to spend in game than Joe does. Joe only plays the game to be with those friends and family. What harm is there in buying the gold to purchase an epic mount or whatever so he can go on one adventure or raid per week and not drag down those friends and family? His skills are as good as the next player, he knows his role, he knows what other's roles are. The only thing Joe is doing here is maximizing the enjoyment from spending time with family and friends. In essence playing a game to play a game, not work in a game for a hundred hours to play for a couple hours.
Now, for the most part the secondary market is against most EULA's. No argument here. But the strength of EULA's has yet to be tried in court. Most every EULA out there violates state and federal laws on some level, and regardless of agreeing to it or not there are some rights that consumers can not sign away on regardless of the legalease put into those agreements. It is not illegal and morality about it is something for a philosopher to discuss and I doubt that any of us here have the time to really get down into the morality of it while putting our own prejudices and motives out of the equation.
How someone spends thier money is not for any of us to decide. Someone spending $400k on a ferrari seems to me to be silly but to that person it is a very valid purchase. Unless the money being bought and sold is created through dupes etc it has no effect on the ingame economies. For one thing the very design of the ingame economy is flawed. You can not have a vibrant thriving economy without a limit on the amount of money available at any given time. But NO one wants to play a game and kill super badbutt boss mob alpha only to loot an IOU stating "Sorry there is no available funds in the game to pay you for your effort. Please cash this in at your nearest bank when funds are available." As to the community aspect, I have met some farmers that were rude and some that were very kind and generous, just like the players who can be as disruptive to the game community or even moreso.
http://www.speedtest.net/result/7300033012
Example being. I'll use FFXI as that's the game I play the most. If I want a sword that's 75k gil I know that it would be 20k if it wasn't for the gil sellers. But I can craft a Bronze Bed for about 2k worth of materials and sell it for 35k. So after about 2 beds, I can buy that sword. Now, whent he gil buyers/sellers got banned the market bottomed out. Who gets left holding the bag? Who really gets hurt in this? The ones who bought that sword at 75k and now wanna sell it but have to at 20k. Gil Sellers/Buyers are a given. They will be back in FFXI and prices will go back up. Why kill the economy and the game for the people who choose not to buy gil when the punishment for the seller and buyer is a mere ban. I'd take a ban over a crushed economy any day.
Now, am I defending the gil buyers/seller? Absolutely not. I think the market would be much more stable without them but they will come back to the game. It's not stoppable. I see FFXI's point in that banning that many people will stop some but only people like myself who've grinded and grinded and just have entertained the thought of gil buying. I've definately been scared straight but that's me. The ones who are going to do it will do it. Bans be damned. So what is the answer? I think it's a lose-lose situation. I think that mass bannings are a bad idea but perhaps periodical smaller bannings. Slowly taking the bought gil out of the market where it can recover easier and with progression instead of just this void that is created.
Right now, FFXI has become less fun because now when i'm crafting, i'm having to go out and farm every little resource to the item i'm making just so I can keep the cost of the materials down because my profit margin becomes thinner. If I buy the stuff for around 2-2.5k and sell for 10k It's hardly worth the effort and time put into it and that's if it crafts first time with no materials lost on "breaks". The Guild Wars community and economy is able to take the Aftermarket hit with the Platinum buyers (and I have a theory that they are somehow the ones selling the said Platinum) because it lets Supply and Demand take effect. When a new weapon hits the scene it's 100K. If you are patient and can wait about 4-5 months it's 15k.
All in all, i hate the fact there is a market for this stuff, but its going to happen. No matter what you do. I dont see a problem in it if the seller isn't using some mega exploit. I look down at the people who do it a little because when they sport the new armor they brag they got the new armor. Not mentioning that they did nothing for it.
(As a side note, I just wanna say I am so happy now that I've found a place where people can discuss topics such as this without resorting to the "Yeah, well you're a nub!!!11!11one!1!". Thank you everyone for instilling my faith in the time honored tradition of debate. I'm glad to know it can happen online without insults flying across the room)
EVE - Sharvala
FFXI - Shazamalicious
Guild Wars - Xavier Lucifer & Charlize the Necro
"Ranged...stuck...tree...15 random words... suck... noob fanboy... I MAKE GUIDE!"
Aah - the old smoking doesnt cause cancer argument.
Why dont you show us some evidence that it doesnt harm the communities, drive up prices of items, affect the economy of games.
See thats what Im talking about.
When you use the word "know" do you mean "know" as in "suspect" or "know" as in "I have evidence to support this assertion ?"
Like for example a server where gil selling is much lower and the same item sells at a corespondingly lower price.
I mean you people cant just keep making these claims and basing it soley on you "gut feelings"
Ive been seeing this argument now since UO.... thats almost 10 years people!! I have yet to see a single table, graph, study, server statistcal set or anything that substantiates in any way the claim that out of game sales affect the in game prices of goods.
Now dont get me wrong... I can see the logic behind the argument, but I can see the the logic behind the argument that more cash in the economy = inflation. But MMO economies arnt RL economies and lack of evidence = shakey argument.
I have still yet to hear one strongly anti gold farming person explain sensibly why it matters to the game economy whether my part time character grinds the gold in game or some kid in China. NPC's in most MMO's have unlimited funds and supply and demand economics do not apply. Spiders guts are worth the same whether there are 1 or 4 milllion of them on sale.there is no comparison with RL economics whatsoever.
The whole argument revolves around the completely flawed notion that if you play the game yourself it somehow has a different effect on the games economy than if someone else plays it for you.
I dont think I did - you missed my point.
If you are making a game with the secondary market in mind - then you better not change or remove any item I pay money for or I will sue you in court and win.
As a player, I feel as if my work to get a rare item loses all of its value if the next bloke can simply ask daddy for the credit card and simply buy the same item I put in X weeks of work to get. Personally, I believe that RMT is harmul the normal player's gaming experience. It's pretty much the same as cheating, only it's "legal" because you paid money for it...
I dont think I did - you missed my point.
If you are making a game with the secondary market in mind - then you better not change or remove any item I pay money for or I will sue you in court and win.
Wrong
End User License Agreement
My arguement is that L2 got sued because they simply neglected to anticipate and contort to the secondary market.
If they had anticipated the secondary market, I'm sure there would be a few lines in their EULA simply stating that all ingame items are the expressed property of NCSoft and that purchasing ingame currency through any means not sanctioned by NCSoft voids any and all claims to legal ramification at the loss of said currency and items.
Obviously it would need lawyered up some, but the point is they didn't take the possibility of this happening into account and thus suffered accordingly.
The problem is that developers short-sightedly refuse to accept the secondary market into their games equation and then whine about the reprocussions.
With a good enough EULA, I could sue you very easily for intellectual theft and win. The reason you don't hear about Blizzard sueing people about the amount of Gold being sold on websites around the world is because like most people on this forum, they've accepted the secondary market as an eventuality and realise just how much it's benefitting them right now. To due even one individual would cost money by itself not to mention the ramifications it would have on the playerbase. Then multiply that by the millions of people who do it and you have the end of WoW as we know it.
www.Divergence-Online.com
Seriously - If people dont have time to play a game then they should play something else. Play a game designed for casual play rather than a grindfest.
So you are designing a game where you plan to sell me items - and want me to sign a EULA where you reserve the right to delete or modify the item I purchase whenever you feel like it.
Luckily for you there are plenty of stupid people around to play your game. I wont be one of them.
So you are designing a game where you plan to sell me items - and want me to sign a EULA where you reserve the right to delete or modify the item I purchase whenever you feel like it.
Luckily for you there are plenty of stupid people around to play your game. I wont be one of them.
And you're one of them friend because you agree to those terms every single time you log into World of Warcraft, Everquest and practically every mmorpg out there aside from a few of the asian ones such as the Lineage franchise.
Future proof that absolutely nobody reads the EULA that you agree to every single time you log in :P
A. All title, ownership rights and intellectual property rights in and to the Game and all copies thereof (including without limitation any titles, computer code, themes, objects, characters, character names, stories, dialog, catch phrases, locations, concepts, artwork, character inventories, structural or landscape designs, animations, sounds, musical compositions and recordings, audio-visual effects, storylines, character likenesses, methods of operation, moral rights, and any related documentation) are owned or licensed by Blizzard. The Game is protected by the copyright laws of the United States, international treaties and conventions, and other laws. The Game may contain materials licensed by third parties, and the licensors of those materials may enforce their rights in the event of any violation of this License Agreement.
13. Changes to the Agreement. Blizzard reserves the right, at its sole discretion, to change, modify, add to, supplement or delete any of the terms and conditions of this License Agreement when Blizzard upgrades the Game Client, effective upon prior notice as follows: Blizzard will post notification of any such changes to this License Agreement on the World of Warcraft website and will post the revised version of this License Agreement in this location, and may provide such other notice as Blizzard may elect in its sole discretion. If any future changes to this License Agreement are unacceptable to you or cause you to no longer be in compliance with this License Agreement, you may terminate this License Agreement in accordance with Section 5 herein. Your installation and use of any updates or modifications to the Game or your continued use of the Game following notice of changes to this Agreement will demonstrate your acceptance of any and all such changes. Blizzard may change, modify, suspend, or discontinue any aspect of the Game at any time. Blizzard may also impose limits on certain features or restrict your access to parts or all of the Game without notice or liability. You have no interest, monetary or otherwise, in any feature or content contained in the Game.
www.Divergence-Online.com
QFT
exactly
"Silly rabbit, WoW's for kids"
************************
I don't believe that RMT messes up the game economy either. The game design itself does that fine on it's own. Economies get screwed up so quickly no matter what. If there is anyone to blame on that it's the developers for not properly making sure players would be able to afford things at the level they should be using them. There is a reason people buy gold online. It's because they can't get enough for the items they need in the game any given time at their level. The reason for that is the game design itself. It all leads back to the game design and the flaws in it. Mostly the time sinks that are put into the game.
You slow down the rate of money drops, keep the amount loot sells to NPCs (not reasonable at all no matter what game I've played) very low, and make the system item based to keep playing longer then you have to accept the negative result of it. I can understand them wanting people to keep playing longer but by forcing this slow down on the actual gameplay people aren't going to stand for it. Which is why people are actually willing to pay month for items and money. They don't have the time to waste getting it in game cause the rates are so low. The economy is usually messed up as well and not by RMT systems but by the extreme powergamers or just people that generally have a LOT of time on their hands. There is no inital guideline to determining what something is worth so you go through a lot of ranges until it gets to the point where a few (the ones that play the most) can afford certain prices and things tend to stick after a while until something better comes along and either the price drops or those items just aren't collected anymore. Then the system continues but with newer items instead.
At least this is what I've seen from my exeriences over the years. Putting all the blame on RMT services isn't right. Yes they do add to things but that's after the fact I think since the problem starts before they even enter the picture. Don't blame those taking advantage of the situation but the actual cause of it if you are really serious about stopping things or really slowing it down. However I don't think companies are willing to do that at all. They want the time sinks in. They want people to play for long periods of time with very low money drop rates. They want things to be slowed down to the point where you struggle to get to the next level and then repeat. As long as players keep playing they get money. Which is why I think they don't mind the RMT in private. They know those people will buy more accounts with his more money as well. They'll never get serious about solving the problem cause that means losing money on both fronts if they did and they are willing to take that risk.
At least this is how I see things.
I couldn't agree more.
The next generation mmorpg has the job of both anticipating the secondary market into their game and making sure that although buying ingame items with real world money is an option, the economy must maintain that buying money and so forth is not REQUIRED to advance your character.
If you can pull that off, you will prosper. At least, that's my understanding.
www.Divergence-Online.com
I dont think I did - you missed my point.
If you are making a game with the secondary market in mind - then you better not change or remove any item I pay money for or I will sue you in court and win.
Wrong
End User License Agreement
My arguement is that L2 got sued because they simply neglected to anticipate and contort to the secondary market.
If they had anticipated the secondary market, I'm sure there would be a few lines in their EULA simply stating that all ingame items are the expressed property of NCSoft and that purchasing ingame currency through any means not sanctioned by NCSoft voids any and all claims to legal ramification at the loss of said currency and items.
Obviously it would need lawyered up some, but the point is they didn't take the possibility of this happening into account and thus suffered accordingly.
The problem is that developers short-sightedly refuse to accept the secondary market into their games equation and then whine about the reprocussions.
With a good enough EULA, I could sue you very easily for intellectual theft and win. The reason you don't hear about Blizzard sueing people about the amount of Gold being sold on websites around the world is because like most people on this forum, they've accepted the secondary market as an eventuality and realise just how much it's benefitting them right now. To due even one individual would cost money by itself not to mention the ramifications it would have on the playerbase. Then multiply that by the millions of people who do it and you have the end of WoW as we know it.
Pretend you have the perfect EULA, that does not cancel the law or how some judge might interpret the law. It wont' be long before issues of property will come into play in our court system. There are people who debate any number of potential issues in games such as hate crimes by use of hate speak. Could stealing an item in an FFA game cross into the real world? Some legal professionals think it should be that way.
Once taxation comes into play, that will make a real world impact.
Thats all there is. You summed up the entire problem 100%
We marvel at the developers ability to create virtual worlds, but allow them to completely abbrogate thier responsibility to secure them in a way that makes it enjoyable for all players.
bah.... there are more people living in a fantasy realm in this thread than playing WoW.... this argument is so last century....
You're missing the *r* in "Henry Rollins" in your avatar space.
If I have to make it my life's goal one day I will shake that damn guys hand I swear on it.
Sorry to get off topic.
www.Divergence-Online.com
The EULA says to not sell or buy in-game material including items and accounts. When you do this you break the rules and we ALL know what happens when you break the rules. Your a cheater and should be banned and hopefully those secondary markets will be sued for going against the EULA they signed and broke with full intention to make profit off it as well!
This is a clear case of stealing as well! in the EULA it says you DO NOT own anything in-game, you are just paying for the entertainment, and everything in-game is the property of the company! selling something that is not your IS STEALING MONEY!
this is like going bowling and taking the pins, the shoes, and the bowling ball (if you didnt bring your own) to sell to some one else and complaining you payed for your time bowling and you own those now because you put in the time and money into the game.
-----------------------
To Kill or Be Killed?
Sorry to prove you wrong but the only MMORPG like game I play is Guild Wars - and since I dont pay real $ for in game items (other the the original game purchase) they can change what they like and it doesnt bother me at all.
But the point I was trying to make is if you sell someone something, then change it - certainly here in Australia I think that violates our fair trading laws, so you have a problem.
i.e if I buy a sword matching description A and then you change it so it no longer matches description A you are in violation of the Trade practices Act and have a problem.
http://www.speedtest.net/result/7300033012
For example in regards to your underlined part, which I assume you did because you are trying to make a point; In china recently laws were passed protecting those virtual items and the individuals that possess them. If you are in china, hack my account and steal my broadsword of uberness +20 you will be jailed. This in and of itself sets precedence that contrary to what blizzard wants you to believe, you do have ownership of your items.
http://www.speedtest.net/result/7300033012