The point that neither side touched on is that the gold farmers DO cause damage to the game and the community of players that reside within it. Actually, most of the folks in this thread that are supporting the gold sellers seem to think that these merchants of virtual wares operate within the confines of the intended game mechanics but seldomly is that the norm. They are already "breaking" the EULA so what sort of moral fiber is there to prevent them from exploiting to gain their goods faster and easier?
Let's look at some examples of how these "upstanding" vendors have operated in the past just with WoW...
Remember when Molten Core was really laggy and unstable about a year ago? Most players thought that it was the shoddy architecture on the part of the server programmers or bad code. No. Actually, it was neither of those. You see Molten Core resided on the same server blade as Maraudon. This dungeon was a hot-spot for level 60 hunter bot farmers back in the day since they could easily run and solo Gizlok. In doing a CPU consumption graph for said server blade, it was found that there were 2-3 instances of MC running and 150+ instances of Maraudon. Population of MC was 80-120 compared to a population of 15-20 for Maraudon. 5-10 of those folks would be actual groups running through while 5-10 were farmers. In short, the server blade would collapse under the weight of these farmers continually popping new instances and boy did that upset those folks in Molten Core. 60 seconds later when the blade would reboot, the farmers would log back in and start the process all over. This was not isolated to just a few realms... it was widespread across all of them. So, 5-10 farmers were spoiling the gameplay and advancement of 80-120 legitimate players all for the sake of free market economy.
The same was done by farmers using horde rogues to flip Uldaman over and over to kill the three dwarves which caused stress on other instances residing on that blade. Then the same was done again by farmers using warlocks to teleport hack to the Ogre King in Dire Maul and kill him with dots while they ported around safely. Or how about when leveling services first came on line and they did so by teleport hacking from Gadgetzan to Feralas to pick eggs from a nest to turn in for a repeatable quest. The quest was later disabled and set the bar that repeatable quests were not to be implimented without very stringent requirements. But... no, that has no impact on the player or the community.
Let's talk about accounts for a moment. I'll break this up into two sections; Yours and Theirs.
Theirs:
As seen in several posts made here the general perception is that these farmers pay for accounts and game time just as you and I do. In that, you are horribly mistaken. What happens is that large orders for boxes are places on internet marketplaces like Amazon with fraudulent credit cards to be shipped overseas. The package of 100's of boxes and game cards arrives in customs but is not claimed. The chinese customs agents then "auction" the unclaimed packages off for pennies on the dollar. So, no... they don't pay the same as you and I.
All of those advertisements that you get in the mail from gibberish names are accounts that have one purpose and one purpose only. That is to flood a realm with in-game mail and tells then get banned. Don't you think that if they paid retail box value that it would be a costly overhead to do such? 20 bucks times 200 realms times 2 factions... that's 8000 dollars just to advertise for one moment on all realms and both factions... for a period of 10 minutes. Think about it.
Yours:
Your account is nothing more than a secondary holding account to these folks. When the exploits dry up and a huge wave of account bans go through, guess where the gold comes from so they can keep up with demand. That's right, your account. How many of you know folks that have had their account compromised to find that it was cleaned out? How long did it take for them to get their gear/characters back? To give you an idea of the level that this has reached... WoW used to get 40-50 hacked accounts per week on average. After the mass bannings and the implimentation of Warden, it's 400-500 a week. Turn around has gone from 24 hours to over 2 weeks.
And that gives me a great segway for the topic of MMO Customer Service. I'll start off with a few questions.
How much do you think these gold farmers cost a company like Blizzard each year in manhours? How does their presence affect the paying customer's customer service experience?
A company like Blizzard will spend upwards of 20+ million this year in CS overhead alone. They have what... 500+ employees in the CS department alone spread across 2-3 locations in the U.S. alone? Some of which have the sole responsiblity for handling issues arising from compromised accounts and the identifcation/banning of farmer accounts. It costs Blizzard millions a year to combat this problem and keep it relatively under control. Programmer time. CS time. And... the most precious... Customer time. Ever been waiting for a response to a ticket and got frustrated with the wait? That's because there were 80+ people upset that they were handing out loot on Garr when the server blade died. That's because 100+ folks just got spam told in Orgrimmar to buy gold at a site. That's because player X just got trained by farmer Y because he was cutting into the bottom line. That's because your friend just got his account stripped so that they can resell the gold on a random site.
So, yes... farmers hurt the community. Farmers hurt the service. Farmers hurt you, the player.
Originally posted by Bakgrind Interesting debate between the two. To many MMORPG's are item centric. But personally I see no difference purchasing gold or and item than ( Me a high level player ) giving my lower level character gold or items. Point is it was all farmed and earned either by me or some one else. Now having it 'Botted' for me by a macroed group as what I've come across in EQ II is different story and all together wrong. But then again it's the game designers fault for allowing that to happen with macro commands and such. Where as I can see where some may say that it ruins the economy by buying and selling items or gold. I look at the player base more to be at fault for the simple reason of greed by a player who plays the game.I can't count the times I've seen level 30 items sell for triple the price of a level 60 item. People have and will continue to put outrages prices on items even if there wasn't a way to buy gold farmed items. Guess what I'm trying to say is how much of a price can you put on an item be it a rare or not that costs you nothing but your in game leisure time to collect it?
The problem is with this.
Lets say a game has 1000 players. No botters, no farmers. Out of those 1000 players, 200 are hardcore(10-15 hours daily) and 800 are casuals (1-10 hours daily). Every day, 200 people are earning 1 gold each (total is 200), and casuals are earning 0.4 gold each (total is 320gold). Total daily gold earned is 520.
Now, lets say a server has 100 hardcore people, 200 farmers and 700 casuals.
100 hardcore=100gold
200 farmers (earch earns 3 gold becuase all they do is get gold, they dont level they dont quest, they dont raid, they just farm the most gold-earning mobs) = 600 gold
700 casuals = 280 gold
total 980 gold
so you see, if even 1/5 of the population are botters, the daily gold generation increases dramaticaly. Of course those numbers are my numbers. But I think they roughly reflect real numbers.
The whole idea why botters hurt the economy is not HOW they make their money, but because they do that and ONLY that they hurt economy.
Its similar to "damping" - a financial term to describe selling something at a price lower then the market price. This way you try to kill your competitors and flood market with very cheap product. This causes a lot of ecenomic damage and is often stricly regulated and usualy illegal, especialy for imports. Similar stuff here, the sudden flow of "extra" gold makes it cheaper and makes everything more expensive. So everyone who doesnt farm and cant buy gold suddenly is poorer for no apparent reason. Thats very bad for those guys.
Originally posted by Mr.Knowitall LOL Talk about flogging a dead horse. RMT is the way of the future for MMO's. There has never been ANY impirical evidence presented by ANYONE that RMT actually hurts games, game companies or communities. This is the latest in a long line of "I think it does" statements by another of the hundreds who have gone before. Show us your statistics to support your argument is all I can say. The burden of proof is on the person making the claims. If your going to say Secondary markets hurt MMO's then put up or STFU. So now you can go ahead and flame me.... but the one thing you WONT BE ABLE TO DO, is support your own argument with facts. Good luck with that.
Mr. Knowitall knows nothing.. i skipped alot when i seen this to post so anyway.. here is your proof.. Last Christmas, a 2ndary company had a "sale" on gold in a game that I play, Items that were 2 million gold shot up to over 20 million gold... items that were 10,000 gold even shot up over 1 million gold... the reason.. the RMT sellers that farm 60 hrs a week to get gold to sell flooded the market.. try keeping up with that when your not rich in RL or in the game to begin with. I was a casual gamer, having enough money to get me by but never being rich... I took a 2 week vacation for the holidays and came back and the game was like that... I barly had money to buy food to do quests or party. More proof: about 2 weeks ago, the game I play busted accounts involving RMT, items have easily take a 15-20% drop in that short period of time.. and are continuing to fall... the PROOF is in the pudding, everyone can see it, just you cheating people will always TRY to find a legitimate way to defend it. As a matter of fact.. take some of your own medicine, you TRY to prove 2ndary markets dont hurt MMO's.. i want you to try, but its fruitless, I just proved it hurts. Sad thing is, you RMT people always cry saying "its not fair" well how is it fair that me the casual player, cant keep up with a game because im not going to spend RL money on a game.... that is what is not fair..
One thing I have already mentioned in this thread, I would like to mention again.. I think RMT has POTENTIAL to be a good thing.. just has to be done right. A simple way that comes to mind.. for you companies out there.. take the 2ndary markets out.. provide your own market.. BUT, do it on reserved servers.. make 1/2 of them servers where if you want to buy gold you can.. the other half make forbidden.. and let players chose where they want to play.. its so simple and you people make it seem like rocket science. That solves both worlds.. people that want to buy gold can on those servers and its allowed and/or encouraged and no1 will complain.. the people on the other servers can go on playing the game they wnt to play and not worrying about RMT. Concept is simple, retarted people MAKE things difficult that think they are right and there is no other way and no1 will tell them because there is no way they could be wrong they do it and they are superior so it must be right ect ect.
Theirs: As seen in several posts made here the general perception is that these farmers pay for accounts and game time just as you and I do. In that, you are horribly mistaken. What happens is that large orders for boxes are places on internet marketplaces like Amazon with fraudulent credit cards to be shipped overseas. The package of 100's of boxes and game cards arrives in customs but is not claimed. The chinese customs agents then "auction" the unclaimed packages off for pennies on the dollar. So, no... they don't pay the same as you and I. All of those advertisements that you get in the mail from gibberish names are accounts that have one purpose and one purpose only. That is to flood a realm with in-game mail and tells then get banned. Don't you think that if they paid retail box value that it would be a costly overhead to do such? 20 bucks times 200 realms times 2 factions... that's 8000 dollars just to advertise for one moment on all realms and both factions... for a period of 10 minutes. Think about it.
I doubt they pay for those accounts. What i think (and judging from the flood of many new accounts here on MMORPG.COM with names like "afgndf") is people farm on trial accounts. Sure they dont farm AS much as they could on a paying account, but there is absolutely zero risk OR expences involved. ON trial account theyd farm 2-3 times less but with no expences, anything they earn is pure profit.
Yours: Your account is nothing more than a secondary holding account to these folks. When the exploits dry up and a huge wave of account bans go through, guess where the gold comes from so they can keep up with demand. That's right, your account. How many of you know folks that have had their account compromised to find that it was cleaned out? How long did it take for them to get their gear/characters back? To give you an idea of the level that this has reached... WoW used to get 40-50 hacked accounts per week on average. After the mass bannings and the implimentation of Warden, it's 400-500 a week. Turn around has gone from 24 hours to over 2 weeks.
To be fair, a link to those numbers would be great.
ummm... What's the most popular online game right now? Ok... now check eBay for the secondary market for that game. It doesn't seem to hurt the player base insofar as the number continuing to play. It certainly mutes this discussion.
how exactly do subscription numbers have any relavence on if secondary markets do or do not hurt a game? secondary market farmers use accounts (paid for or not they show as accounts).
Also your not taking into account the uninformed masses, and when your talking about the number of people we are talking about that's alot of people.
Then there's the loyalists, no matter how bad it gets they love the game and stay.
I was going to type more, but honestly there's no need.
Originally posted by severius Originally posted by WSIMike Amazing how RMT in online games has gone from an "underground" thing that people used to do in secret, behind closed doors, all "hush-hush" like to now something that people are declaring as their god-given right. Someone even mentioned "free-market society". FFS...
Once again, I see the argument that "RMT Is good for people who simply don't have the time to put into the game to work for something and would like to buy it instead". That is such a hollow, ridiculous statement that it baffles me how many people stand behind it as though it's some rock-solid ace card they're playing. Another is how it "levels the playing field and makes it more fair for people who don't have the time to invest..." Excuse me? It's "unfair" that some people have more time to play a game than you do? Oh please... bring out the violins. Sorry... that's called *life*. If you have less time to play than someone else it's *common-sense* that it will take you longer to acquire an item than someone with more time to play. It's only unfair to those who somehow feel they are entitled to have everything they want without having to earn it simply because they don't feel like putting any effort into it.
All games are designed to be a challenge - each in their own way. In MMORPGs part of that challenge is developing your character and earning the better gear, etc. When other players look at you they believe you have put alot of time into the game and really have accomplished alot when all you've really done is whipped out your credit card. Lame. Lame. Lame.
I've said it before and I will continue to say it - people who RMT and buy their way through a game are completely missing the point of playing in the first place. The games are designed with everything in place to allow any player to acquire and achieve anything they want in the game.
There is no excuse to RMT. Stop being so damn lazy, stop with the ridiculous excuses and rationlizations, accept a damn challenge for once and play the damn games the way they were designed.
If it will take you longer than you'd like to get where you'd like to be in a gmae - then perhaps you should pick a game better suited to your time availability.
In the end - RMTers lose becuase as the developers and support teams catch them - admittedly much more slowly in some games than in others - they are suspended and/or banned. Square-Enix is doing a fantastic job with this in FFXI. Perhaps you people in here trying to state your case about "free-market societies" and "not having enough time to play the game properly" should take a clue from that and realize, once and for all...
No.. RMT in a game not designed around and expressely forbidding it is *not* okay. Not by your rationalizations. Not by any rationalizations.
You're obviously BS'ing yourselves.. but for the rest of us who have the brain-cells enough to see it for what it is - you're not fooling us at all.
At least have the integrity to accept it for what it is - cheating.
How is someone working 40 hours a week in the real world making enough disposable income to be able to buy a sword of mobslaying +10 any worse than some punk kid that cuts school to play a video game for 40 hours a week? What you seem to fail to realize is that none of these games require much in the way of skill or thought, just time. If it were a skill or thought based game then people wouldnt make such a stink about someone else buying that sword or that pile of gold because money and items can not compensate for a complete lack of skill.
You may find going into some area and spending 50 or 60 hours killing the same mobbies over and over again entertaining but that doesnt mean that others share your opinion. Someone once wrote that the proof of the existence of hell is repitition. Yet thats what these games encourage, mindnumbing reptition over and over again only so you keep paying a subscription fee like the other lemmings.
Fact of the matter is this: The way these games are developed the "rmt" does not take anythign away from you. Someone is still out there for those 50 or 60 hours, mind numbingly grinding away on mobbies then turning around and selling that stuff to someone else who doesnt enjoy that. If you feel a sense of accomplishment for being able to grind away to get that extra gold piece then more power to you. Someone else feels a sense of accomplishment by spending time with loved ones, playing a bit of a vid game, reading a book, having intercourse with someone other than themselves and having a good nights sleep before going to work in the morning.
You say people are missing the point of playing in the first place. I dont see how. They are able to log in, spend time with friends and log out. Isnt that what the point of these games are? I think the only one's deluding themselves are the ones that equate mindnumbing repetition with a challenge. Okay, now you're getting into the realm of "what's the game all about". Look, every single MMORPG I've played (well with a few exceptions) has had * way* more to do than mindlessly stand around killing the same mobs over and over. That that's what many players reduce the game to because they don't have the imagination or inclination to *do* anything else in the game is not the fault of the designer. When I hear people say this about FFXI I just have to stare in disbelief.. there is TONS of content in FFXI. A player starting from scratch right now has easily over a year of content to get through, much of it challenging and not in the least involving, standing in a corner killing the same mobs over and over. Yet, regardless, that's what many end up doing anyway. Why? I have no bloody clue. Because they're masochists I guess.
Regardless of all that, how a person chooses to play the game, or believes the game is all about, does not exempt them from the terms they are agreeing to every time they play the game. Those terms include the understanding that RMT and other such activities are not allowed. Period. They are further agreeing that if they do so anyway and are caught that punitive actions - up to and including suspension or banning of their account can take place. How they choose to play the game is completely irrelevant to what they agree to do or not to do while playing it.
That's the point people seem to keep missing.
And if you (not *you* personally, severius; speaking in general here) lack the imagination or the desire to do anything but grind on the same mobs for hours and find it boring as hell and not fun... THEN CANCEL THE DAMN ACCOUNT AND PLAY SOMETHING YOU DO ENJOY. Or... perhaps try stepping outside the pattern you've fallen into and try something different in the game. Those are the only right answers.
Argue, debate, rationalize, theorize and hypothesize all you want, to whom ever you want. Regardless, it boils down to this:
If RMT is prohibited in a game you're playing and you partake in it anyway and are busted and subsequently banned... you have only yourself to blame. No degree of relativism or philosophy or crying is going to make you right.
So, why bother doing it in the first place?
Just play the damn game the way it was designed to be played or find something that better suits you.
End of story.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Originally posted by Kendoshan how exactly do subscription numbers have any relavence on if secondary markets do or do not hurt a game? secondary market farmers use accounts (paid for or not they show as accounts).
Also your not taking into account the uninformed masses, and when your talking about the number of people we are talking about that's alot of people.
Then there's the loyalists, no matter how bad it gets they love the game and stay.
I was going to type more, but honestly there's no need.
Yup. Also, to add to your answer to Brynn: WoW actively (or at least they claim and seem to) hunts and deals with botters and farmers. Judging from the player responces (a lot of them claim they were unfairily banned), WoW does indeed ban a lot of alleged botters. Thats one of the reasons I think WoW is not affected by botters/farmers as much. Also, WoW is fun to play from low to mid and even high levels, so that also decreases potential clientelle for gold-sellers. And the fact that majority of players are casuals who dont realy play WoW for competition but more for personal joy adds a tiny bit to this. Why buy gold when u have enough to get by? The only REAL time you need gold is when buying a mount. Armor and weapons, whether quest reward or loot, are adequate all the way to the top.
Only the high high end is unbalanced and requires real effort to remain competetive with the others.
Originally posted by EThanC Originally posted by Elikal On a very basic level the entire question can be reduced to this: do you agree with the idea of capitalism (free market) or not. There is nothing else. Yeah, you can tell me it damages prices or your achievement pride - but that all goes into the same bag. The idea is, free market aka capitalism aka niche exploiting is either good or bad in the long run. All this has nothing to do with how you feel. IMO it was quite unfair to take Brad McQuaid into this, a developer and CEO who will split many ppl into disagree or agree more based on if they like him or not. A less controversial person would have been better. I am quite sure some ppl just agree with him because they like Vanguard. Sorry, but humans often fuction that way. Ppl are talked into moral frenzies to ban gold or item selling, without any logic. If I buy 10 castles 100 horses and 2000 golden axes with $$$ in my fav MMO, so what? It is MY matter, MY decision and no one elses. Sorry if anyone feel degraded, but such is life. Our free society is based on those liberties that I can spent my own money on every legal good, and there is no objective damage done to anyone if I buy myself an entire house full of weapons, characters or whatever. Not that I would do, but I think everyone has the RIGHT and it is no bodies business. I think those EULAs stand on quite weak feet, and usually the companies still can enforce them because players are easily made afraid and banned. In the end, it is a matter of monetary interests and has nothing to do with morals.
I'm nto saying that I don't understand the reason some people have a problem with the secondary market.
I hated dealing with bots and hearing "USA DOG YOU GO NOW" spewing from avatars in L2 as much as the next guy but in keeping with what I believe the initial point was, the overwhelming majority of these concerns are derived from the fact that this is because the secondary market wasn't accounted for in lineage 2.
Can anyone cite an mmorpg which was designed around 2nd market transactions that has failed? Even that new Korean game "Silkroad" is doing well being f2p and has an ingame item mall for real currency sales.
It had to be said sooner or later and I don't want to open a can of worms but it's amazing how much this whole debate sounds exactly like the debate to legalize merijuana.
Pro Legalization: Legalizing marijuana has a number of benefits. People are going to buy it anyways! This way, nobody get's thrown into prison and their lives ruined over a stupid law that shouldn't be anyway, plus think of what a boost to the economy it would be!
Anti-Legalization: That doesn't change the fact that it's wrong! It just is! We don't have to explain to you why it is but it just is alright!
People who are aggressively anti-2nd market are statistically those among us who play the most and typically either have no jobs or cannot/choose not to be successful in real life. The ability for those with money irl to purchase goods and services in these games means that those people who have no lives can no longer lord over those with lives so easily and that adults [I went ahead and said it] can buy their way onto the same level.
Maybe that sounded a tad crass but necessary
It was crass, arrogant, way over-generalized and, frankly, wrong.
I work a full-time job, and make pretty darn good money. If I chose to RMT my way through any MMO I play, I certainly could without missing a bill. I also, like so many others who use it as an excuse to RMT, have limited time to play. Regardless of all this I am still vehemently anti-RMT and believe in playing the game the designers created - not turning it into a pointless and challengeless hack-n-slash by just buying my way to every goal I have.
So, please, next time you want to try and make a point - do a little research first. Or perhaps just stick to speaking for yourself.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
I doubt they pay for those accounts. What i think (and judging from the flood of many new accounts here on MMORPG.COM with names like "afgndf") is people farm on trial accounts. Sure they dont farm AS much as they could on a paying account, but there is absolutely zero risk OR expences involved. ON trial account theyd farm 2-3 times less but with no expences, anything they earn is pure profit.
And To be fair, a link to those numbers would be great.
That's what I was getting at. The farmers don't pay legitimately for their accounts. However, trial accounts in WoW are limited in that they can only get to level 20, can't mail, can't trade and can't send tells. The gold made with a trial account is minimal to what a level 60 rogue or hunter farmer can make per hour even factoring in the leveling time.
As for a link... I was speaking as an informed source on the matter. That sort of information isn't normally made public by any company in a formal fashion. I'll wait for the "screenshot or it didn't happen" reply.
I've been reading all these rebuttals, justifications and elaborate theories by people all over who are pro-RMT and I just can't help but wonder if half of these people realize how full of it they are. I can't believe some actually believe the crap they are spewing out. I have decided to post a long-format response to every argument I have ever seen given to date (though a few new ones have popped up in this thread - it's just impossible to keep up with all the new excuses pro-RMT folks dream up to justify that they're basically cheating their way through the game.. but I digress...)
Allow me to get to the main point here right at the start:
Except in the MMOs where it is specifically designed *into* the gameplay (such as Entropia Universe, or the Station Exchange servers for EQII), RMT is never... let me emphasize this... _not ever_ "okay" or justified or intended as a method of gameplay.
Now allow me to run through some of the more commonly used excuses for it and then point out just why they're BS.
1. "I have a wife/family/"other time-consuming responsibility here" and don't have tons of hours to play like some people do, so I have to buy gold in order to get things in a reasonable amount of time and stay competitive".
Nnnno... it'll just take you a little longer to achieve those things.
Every player is subject to the same challenges in achieving any particular quality gear, a mount, a level, etc. Developers do not arbitrarily and randomly make it harder for one person than it is for another. Outside of an obvious array of exceptions that don't involve buying gold through the so-called "second market", everyone is faced with the same degree of difficulty and requirements to aquire something. Likewise, every player is provided the same means, the same tools and the same options to acquire whatever it is they want - and it's all provided within the context of the gameplay. Buying money outside of the game to bypass all that is *not* one of those options.
Disagree? Fine. Find me any official game documentation that says otherwise and states buying in-game money for real cash is an intended and promoted form of gameplay. You won't. Because it isn't.
If someone can play 6 hours a day to devote toward a goal and you can only devote 6 hours a week, and you're both equal in terms of skill and wherewithall to acquire what you're after, common-sense dictates that they *should* get the item before you. It's not unfair. It doesn't present an "uneven playing field". It's called Real Life. Welcome to it. Having less time to play and/or more responsibilities than someone else does not entitle you to have an item any sooner or with any less effort than them.
The concept of an amount of time to achieve any given goal being "reasonable" is subjective; it's whatever an individual feels is worth investing toward a given goal. There is no official published documentation of how long it's "supposed-to" take every player to achieve a given goal. So, making any generalized statement of what a "reasonable" amount of time is is pointless. It's different for everyone.
That said, finding too many things in the game fall outside what you personally deem "reasonable" does not justify resorting to RMT to get around it. It might, and perhaps should make you reconsider whether you chose the right game, given your time availability and expectations of what you want to get out of the game in what time-frame. Here's a novel thought. Perhaps you should find a different kind of game to play that better suits your time availability. MMOs obviously require more time and involvement than you're willing or able to commit. Unfortunate - but, hey, just like anything else - nothing is for everybody.
2. "The RMT companies are providing a service that people want."
Close, but not specific enough. A more accurate way of putting it is: The RMT companies are providing a service for lazy people that just happens to go directly against the EULA that *every single player* agrees to when they install and play the game. The assets being bought/sold are property of their respective game's developer. They are not for the subscribers to buy, sell or profit on. Like it or not, agree with it or not - you are agreeing to abide by the company's rules when you play the game and you are agreeing and acknowledging that you will be held accountable and penalized if you fail to do so. By participating in RMT, as a buyer or seller, you are violating those rules... and yes.. will be held accountable when caught. That so many people conveniently overlook that basic fact really bewilders me.
That failing, whatever you think of it - if the company catches and decides to ban you - guess what? You're screwed. You can argue all your pet theories with a company rep. all day long. You can argue all the way to the top of the ladder. You still lose. That alone should be self-evident enough that.... gee.. perhaps it's something you shouldn't be doing in the first place. Always amazes me how some people believe the rules don't apply to them. They have all these neat-sounding reasons, talking about "free-market societies" and all these big, bold and important-sounding theories... but in the end, it's all just empty self-serving rationalization.
This brings me to the next one:
3. "Well there's loop-holes in those EULAs. Any attorney will tell you that some of the items in there wouldn't hold up in court".
Okay... the absurdity of this mentality is so self-evident that it almost don't justify expanding on. But I will anyway - 'cause I'm in that kinda mood.
That you have to and would actually spend time finding *loopholes* in EULAs in order to feel justified with engaging in RMT speaks loud and clear, on its own, that you realize you're doing something the company doesn't approve. That there's something there that requires loopholes to be found in the first place should light up the "common-sense" parts of your brain like a fireworks display. They're not added as an "additional gameplay feature". They're certainly not there to *encourage* RMT.
Occam's Razor says, all things being equal, the simplest answer tends to be the correct one.
Well, in this case, the simplest answer is - those rules are in the EULA because... DING! the developer/publisher does not condone, allow nor approve of the buying or selling of any in-game assets outside of the game for real-world money (aka RMT)! Incredible how simple that is to comprehend!
On that note, "Well I never read the EULA" don't get you off the hook. Sorry, but that dog won't hunt. Ignorance isn't a free-pass to do as you wish without accountability. Whether you choose to read them or not is not the company's problem; you're still agreeing to abide by them and they still apply to you when you play the game.
1+1=2, folks.
4. "RMT does not affect the economy or negatively affect any other players. It's harmless".
Really? Well it certainly don't affect those who will freely pull out their credit card to buy the gold they need for everything they want. I guess it's easy to overlook the fallout of one's actions when they're simply buying their way past them. Ignorance is bliss, as they say.
For those who are actually *playing* the game as designed and earning accomplishments, however, it makes a huge impact.
I'll address that with one current real-world example...
Final Fantasy XI had a steadily inflating economy for some time. Items that used to go in the low 6 digits had gone up to several million... sometimes into the 10s of millions. Same items, same stats, same benefits.. but somehow many times the price. It had gotten to the point that people would leave the game because they simply couldn't afford the time to progress - without cheating/buying money.
This had nothing to do with RMT, you say?
Well... then explain this to me... Not too long ago, Square-Enix - developers of FFXI - created a task team *specifically* to track down and eliminate RMT and similar activities across their servers; something I applaud them for. Now.. before I go any further, read that first sentence again. SE are actively and aggressively banning accounts for RMT, among other expressely forbidden activities. They've already driven some of the lesser RMT companies from the game entirely. If they keep it up, it's only a matter of time before the bigger players follow suit. Now, this might come as a surprise to some of you... SE are doing this because *they don't approve of and forbid RMT-related activity in their game* - just like it says in the EULA that so many of you so gleefully ignore.
Is it sinking in yet?
Now.. to get back to the example... Since SE has implemented this task force, banning 1000s of accounts and removing 10s of billions of ill-gotten gil from the economy across all servers on a monthly basis - the prices on many items have come back down to almost where they were 2 years ago. I've almost fallen out of my seat a few times at how far they've dropped on items I've needed. People can suddenly afford to buy many items again that only some months ago were a pipe-dream for all but the pro-RMT players. Players can actually play the game again the way SE designed it to be and have a hope of obtaining the gear they want/need. For example, an item I once purchased for 450k peaked at over 4 million when the inflation was at its worst. Since SE started combating the RMT problem, I've recently seen that same item selling for around 370k - even lower than what I'd once paid for it.
So.. let's simplify this. Pre RMT control, inflation in FFXI went through the roof. Post RMT control, they are down to the lowest they've been, literally, in years. Black and White. Cause and Effect. Common-sense. RMT hurts the economy and throws the game out of balance for all but those willing to buy/cheat their way through.
And that's only *one* aspect of how it ruins the game for others.
There's also all the related activities and tactics the RMT farmers use to "run their business". Things such as monopolizing valuable assets/creatures/items in the game by using scripts/3rd party apps or exploits to get the upper-hand and control the market; continuously blocking legit players access. In all, what I've heard, read and experienced first-hand of how RMT has adversely affected honest players across the MMOs I've played could fill a novel.
Another example, legitimage players in FFXI can actually get at NMs (Notorious Monsters) that were once monopolized by RMT farmers 24/7, and have a real chance of getting the mob and/or the item they need. Their only competition being other legitimate players and the random nature of the drops themselves - as it should be. I recently spoke with a good friend in FFXI who was overjoyed that, for the first time in over 3 months, her linkshell (guild) successfully claimed a "god" NM that had been monopolized by RMT farmers using 3rd party hacks/bot programs, making it all but impossible to get at - and there wasn't a RMT farmer to be seen anywhere, thanks to SE's aggressive banning of such accounts.
By the by, in case you pro-RMT types didn't know - the 3rd-party hacks, botting programs and tactics used by RMT farmers to obtain the money you buy are *also* prohibited and are cause for account suspension or cancellation. Food for thought.
So, still don't believe RMT hurts the player base at large, in more ways than one? I would recommend opening your eyes, taking off the blinders and looking at the world outside yourself once in a while.
5. One of my favorite pro-RMT rebuttals: "Well, I realize that I'm helping put food on the table for someone in another country who otherwise wouldn't be able to afford it, so I'm not only making the game more enjoyable for myself.. I'm helping someone else"
Here.. you can have my violin. I won't be using it any time soon on this subject. Oh, and here's some paper towels to mop up after your bleeding heart. Again, this is a disingenuous and, frankly, shameful arguement some have made. You aren't buying money out of goodwill for anyone else. Please. Your reasons are entirely in self-interest. If you're that concerned about helping out some poor people in another country - or even in your own - find a good, worthwhile and honest charity that you agree with and send them the money instead. There are plenty of them. You're still helping others and you're not screwing things up for thousands of others in the process. Don't worry.. I'm not holding my breath on that one.
You send money to charities to help less fortunate people. You pay a subscription to a game company/publisher to play their MMO. MMOs are not Charities. Get it?
Just for once, I wish the pro-RMT people would drop the facade, stop the grand-standing, lose the lame, empty rationalizations and excuses and address it for what it is: Cheating.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
The problem with this debate is that so many people have no idea what they're talking about, or just don't care that they have no idea.
You have people talking economics without any real conception of how it works. You have people making twisted arguments that it's somehow not cheating to break the rules.
It's pointless.
As was mentioned in an earlier post, I'd like to ask - If there were two servers for a game, 1 being free from RMT, and 2 being RMT-friendly, would these RMT players really play on the RMT server?
I highly doubt it because I have a good feeling that people who buy online items with RM don't do it so they can keep up, but because they want to surpass people.
Originally posted by Deiandewah The problem with this debate is that so many people have no idea what they're talking about, or just don't care that they have no idea. You have people talking economics without any real conception of how it works. You have people making twisted arguments that it's somehow not cheating to break the rules. It's pointless. As was mentioned in an earlier post, I'd like to ask - If there were two servers for a game, 1 being free from RMT, and 2 being RMT-friendly, would these RMT players really play on the RMT server? I highly doubt it because I have a good feeling that people who buy online items with RM don't do it so they can keep up, but because they want to surpass people.
Careful... someone's likely to state your opinion carries no weight because you only have 6 posts... Many in forums like these fancy that as an argument-winner. I'm pretty sure they're all pro-RMT, as well.. just a guess. -rolls eyes-
And I agree. People don't want a level playing field - they want to be better, or at the very least "not worse than" anyone else. And, somehow, in their logic, despite the fact that there's 50, 60, 100+++ levels of quests and various challenging content designed, tested and provided by the developers to play through to reach that level of play, they seem to be fully convinced that somehow.. none of that applies to them. No no.. they're above all that. They're a top-level player in a new-character's body.. they just have to buy the right gear and they'll be right where they belong... at the top with the "big boys". Earning your gear? Learning to play as you go along? Being *challenged*? Pfft.. who has time for that.. especially when you have VISA!
-rolls eyes again-
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
and the more people that play the game the more potential buyers of items and more people will be farmers
I dont really see any way to stop the selling of items/gold, as long as the demand is there people will farm it and sell it.
I played on an exhange server for EQ2 and never had any issue geting the money to buy items I needed, I never bought or sold any gold, items or chars.
also about companies supporting RMT like the exchange, most people I knew that bought gold would never buy it on the exchange, they would always go to thrid party sites where it was cheaper.
as along as farmers can hide in their instances and non pvp safe zones, or not worry about their gear/money being lost on death there will be tons of them
------------------------------------------------- Achiever 20.00%, Explorer 86.67%, Killer 60.00%, Socializer 33.33%
Originally posted by De_Valos I'll try this again to see if anyone has any thoughts.
A virtual item is essentailly nothing more than a few hundred bytes of storage space which are converted to electrons, shipped around the world and then displayed through a software application. They have no monitary value. If a game developer publically approves of a secondary market which applies a real world dollar value to a virtual item; or if that developer sells an item for real world money; the developer can be sued for the fair market value of those few hundred bytes of storage. If they change a couple of those bytes and the item now behaves differently, or should they lose the data and are unable to recover it, they can be held legally accountable.
Why would a game developer, set themselves up for a class action law suit over allowing their intellectual property to be assigned a real world value by a third party?
If anyone is interested check out some of the following links on the topic:
Thanks for the link! You betcha the politcians are going to find ways to tax this stuff. Another reason why I think there won't be any legislation against it. Just like tobacco. We know its bad for us, so why not ban it? Answer: Tax revenue is too damn good.
"Korea leads the world in both broadband access and online game usage. Findings from this case study reveal that property rights over digital items are not yet determined."
Even though the number of transactions is still small they have led to a significant increase in teen crime." - omg don't let our legislators read that, or playing MMORPGS may be illegal for all!
"Very few (players) want to make profits or a living through item trade but they serve a large market that simply wants to buy items conveniently and sell what they no longer need. In other words this is a normal marketplace."
So the player wins a case on virtual item loss because his equipment depreciated (and virtual character reutation?) while his account was banned? Is that computer equipment or virtual equipment? That tells me a court is assigning monetary value on virtual items.
Thanks for the links. Though I am afraid they seem to be warnings to game developers, especially games which encourage secondary markets. However, it does seem that these things are still pretty rare.
Originally posted by Kirtonos Originally posted by jimmyman99 I doubt they pay for those accounts. What i think (and judging from the flood of many new accounts here on MMORPG.COM with names like "afgndf") is people farm on trial accounts. Sure they dont farm AS much as they could on a paying account, but there is absolutely zero risk OR expences involved. ON trial account theyd farm 2-3 times less but with no expences, anything they earn is pure profit. And To be fair, a link to those numbers would be great.
That's what I was getting at. The farmers don't pay legitimately for their accounts. However, trial accounts in WoW are limited in that they can only get to level 20, can't mail, can't trade and can't send tells. The gold made with a trial account is minimal to what a level 60 rogue or hunter farmer can make per hour even factoring in the leveling time. As for a link... I was speaking as an informed source on the matter. That sort of information isn't normally made public by any company in a formal fashion. I'll wait for the "screenshot or it didn't happen" reply. I was not aware of the trial account limitations... Thnx for clearing that up for me. Im guessing WoW would have a different type of Botter, a living botter. Ive heard thats what they do nowadays, instead of running a program that "farms" for u, an actual person is doing it. In that way, they arent realy breaking any laws, becuase a human is always present at the keyboard. And yet the detrimental effect to the economy and community remains.Im glad im getting too old for MMORPGs in general, Id hate to see great games ruined because of this.
Originally posted by WSIMike Originally posted by EThanC Originally posted by Elikal On a very basic level the entire question can be reduced to this: do you agree with the idea of capitalism (free market) or not. There is nothing else. Yeah, you can tell me it damages prices or your achievement pride - but that all goes into the same bag. The idea is, free market aka capitalism aka niche exploiting is either good or bad in the long run. All this has nothing to do with how you feel. IMO it was quite unfair to take Brad McQuaid into this, a developer and CEO who will split many ppl into disagree or agree more based on if they like him or not. A less controversial person would have been better. I am quite sure some ppl just agree with him because they like Vanguard. Sorry, but humans often fuction that way. Ppl are talked into moral frenzies to ban gold or item selling, without any logic. If I buy 10 castles 100 horses and 2000 golden axes with $$$ in my fav MMO, so what? It is MY matter, MY decision and no one elses. Sorry if anyone feel degraded, but such is life. Our free society is based on those liberties that I can spent my own money on every legal good, and there is no objective damage done to anyone if I buy myself an entire house full of weapons, characters or whatever. Not that I would do, but I think everyone has the RIGHT and it is no bodies business. I think those EULAs stand on quite weak feet, and usually the companies still can enforce them because players are easily made afraid and banned. In the end, it is a matter of monetary interests and has nothing to do with morals.
I'm nto saying that I don't understand the reason some people have a problem with the secondary market.
I hated dealing with bots and hearing "USA DOG YOU GO NOW" spewing from avatars in L2 as much as the next guy but in keeping with what I believe the initial point was, the overwhelming majority of these concerns are derived from the fact that this is because the secondary market wasn't accounted for in lineage 2.
Can anyone cite an mmorpg which was designed around 2nd market transactions that has failed? Even that new Korean game "Silkroad" is doing well being f2p and has an ingame item mall for real currency sales.
It had to be said sooner or later and I don't want to open a can of worms but it's amazing how much this whole debate sounds exactly like the debate to legalize merijuana.
Pro Legalization: Legalizing marijuana has a number of benefits. People are going to buy it anyways! This way, nobody get's thrown into prison and their lives ruined over a stupid law that shouldn't be anyway, plus think of what a boost to the economy it would be!
Anti-Legalization: That doesn't change the fact that it's wrong! It just is! We don't have to explain to you why it is but it just is alright!
People who are aggressively anti-2nd market are statistically those among us who play the most and typically either have no jobs or cannot/choose not to be successful in real life. The ability for those with money irl to purchase goods and services in these games means that those people who have no lives can no longer lord over those with lives so easily and that adults [I went ahead and said it] can buy their way onto the same level.
Maybe that sounded a tad crass but necessary
It was crass, arrogant, way over-generalized and, frankly, wrong.
I work a full-time job, and make pretty darn good money. If I chose to RMT my way through any MMO I play, I certainly could without missing a bill. I also, like so many others who use it as an excuse to RMT, have limited time to play. Regardless of all this I am still vehemently anti-RMT and believe in playing the game the designers created - not turning it into a pointless and challengeless hack-n-slash by just buying my way to every goal I have.
So, please, next time you want to try and make a point - do a little research first. Or perhaps just stick to speaking for yourself.
I agree with WSIMike. The only ones who will benefit from this are the most hardcore people, the ones who do have time to farm gold and rare items. if anything, they wouldnt mind making a buck or two by selling items, gold or their characters. Why would they be anti-RMT? Yeah their super duper sword is not gonna be THAT unique, but once he sells that sword for 500USD$ im guessing hed be very happy.
Its the small folk that get hurt the most, the folks that have no time to farm, so they keep falling below the competetive line and eventualy end up washed out heroes with rusty armor and unable to get a group or PvP becuase everyone else around them fancies flaming sword of uberness, whether farmed by self or bought by money. These folk would be forced to spend more time farming. buy stuff, quit or do nothing and remain the same old character with rusty armor.
Originally posted by Deiandewah The problem with this debate is that so many people have no idea what they're talking about, or just don't care that they have no idea. You have people talking economics without any real conception of how it works. You have people making twisted arguments that it's somehow not cheating to break the rules. It's pointless. As was mentioned in an earlier post, I'd like to ask - If there were two servers for a game, 1 being free from RMT, and 2 being RMT-friendly, would these RMT players really play on the RMT server? I highly doubt it because I have a good feeling that people who buy online items with RM don't do it so they can keep up, but because they want to surpass people.
Im guessing the answer is NO. I dont know statistics for SOE's servers where selling items for RL is allowed, but I doubt anyone will enjoy on a server full of max level chars, all brandishing super uber armor of gods and brandishing uber sword/axe/hammer/wand/stave of uberness. Everyone will be the same, there will be nothing people cant get in 1 day, providing their CC is not maxed out. Any point playing there? Why? doing high end raiding? what for when u can just buy that item from the raid... Exp? why, you just buy your exp... drool over naked dancing elven chicks? yup, but you can do that on any server
Farming occurs becuase people buy stuff. People buy stuff becuase they want to be better the others and they dont want to work for it. These types of people should keep playing single player games, where they can type IDDQD turn god mode and ruin the game for themselves. At least they wont affect me and countless other people who like to play games as they were intended to play. Farming/botting is as bad as cheating/hacking in game.
Originally posted by merv808 Alright...Here is what I'm tired of reading. "I work 40 hours a week and I have a family, therefore I buy gold to keep up with my friends". BS!!! I work 40 hours a week, I have a family, and I don't have as much time to play a game as others. Does that make it ok for me to cheat?....no! I play the game for fun-I enjoy it when I can and when I can't I enjoy my REAL life. Actually the fact that I work 40 hours a week for my rl money makes sure that I don't spend it on something as silly as items in a game. Surely, you family could benefit alot more from that rl $100 you spend on $1 mil of in-game money. Anyways, lets apply this dynamic to your RL job--You go to work 40 hours a week and work your butt off. Even if your job is boring or repititive you work hard at it anyways because you know its gonna pay off eventually. Now say a woman who doesn't always show up and never works sleeps with the boss. She gets a promotion. Sure her banging the boss doesn't effect you. But guess what you're gonna be pissed because you tried to get that promotion and you tried to do it by the rules. Ultimately, you will hate this woman and eventually seek a new job. This is EXACTLY what happens in MMOs, and no matter how many ppl say, "She just did what she had to do to keep up", and "this doesn't effect other employees". You will always know that as BS, making any arguements that say otherwise moot.
Originally posted by EliasThorne Where I see the secondary market most is in Lineage II, where farmers took over areas to get the resources to sell, should you be stupid/daring enough to wander into "their" land you could get a tell such as "PK, PK, You go now" which would be followed up by a much higher level character killing you if you did not go.
They know how to play and have enough people to fend of even the most dedicated guilds.
How can this be good for the player experience?
Now I remember why I swore off public forums two years ago. I had forgot how angry it can make a person after the 9th time they have to repeat themselves.
Let's make it a round number.
Lineage 2 Didn't account for The secondary Market
This has been stated on almost every single page in this discussion.
Originally posted by WSIMike I've been reading all these rebuttals, justifications and elaborate theories by people all over who are pro-RMT and I just can't help but wonder if half of these people realize how full of it they are. I can't believe some actually believe the crap they are spewing out. I have decided to post a long-format response to every argument I have ever seen given to date (though a few new ones have popped up in this thread - it's just impossible to keep up with all the new excuses pro-RMT folks dream up to justify that they're basically cheating their way through the game.. but I digress...)
Allow me to get to the main point here right at the start:
Except in the MMOs where it is specifically designed *into* the gameplay (such as Entropia Universe, or the Station Exchange servers for EQII), RMT is never... let me emphasize this... _not ever_ "okay" or justified or intended as a method of gameplay.
Now allow me to run through some of the more commonly used excuses for it and then point out just why they're BS.
1. "I have a wife/family/"other time-consuming responsibility here" and don't have tons of hours to play like some people do, so I have to buy gold in order to get things in a reasonable amount of time and stay competitive".
Nnnno... it'll just take you a little longer to achieve those things.
Every player is subject to the same challenges in achieving any particular quality gear, a mount, a level, etc. Developers do not arbitrarily and randomly make it harder for one person than it is for another. Outside of an obvious array of exceptions that don't involve buying gold through the so-called "second market", everyone is faced with the same degree of difficulty and requirements to aquire something. Likewise, every player is provided the same means, the same tools and the same options to acquire whatever it is they want - and it's all provided within the context of the gameplay. Buying money outside of the game to bypass all that is *not* one of those options.
Disagree? Fine. Find me any official game documentation that says otherwise and states buying in-game money for real cash is an intended and promoted form of gameplay. You won't. Because it isn't.
If someone can play 6 hours a day to devote toward a goal and you can only devote 6 hours a week, and you're both equal in terms of skill and wherewithall to acquire what you're after, common-sense dictates that they *should* get the item before you. It's not unfair. It doesn't present an "uneven playing field". It's called Real Life. Welcome to it. Having less time to play and/or more responsibilities than someone else does not entitle you to have an item any sooner or with any less effort than them.
The concept of an amount of time to achieve any given goal being "reasonable" is subjective; it's whatever an individual feels is worth investing toward a given goal. There is no official published documentation of how long it's "supposed-to" take every player to achieve a given goal. So, making any generalized statement of what a "reasonable" amount of time is is pointless. It's different for everyone.
That said, finding too many things in the game fall outside what you personally deem "reasonable" does not justify resorting to RMT to get around it. It might, and perhaps should make you reconsider whether you chose the right game, given your time availability and expectations of what you want to get out of the game in what time-frame. Here's a novel thought. Perhaps you should find a different kind of game to play that better suits your time availability. MMOs obviously require more time and involvement than you're willing or able to commit. Unfortunate - but, hey, just like anything else - nothing is for everybody.
2. "The RMT companies are providing a service that people want."
Close, but not specific enough. A more accurate way of putting it is: The RMT companies are providing a service for lazy people that just happens to go directly against the EULA that *every single player* agrees to when they install and play the game. The assets being bought/sold are property of their respective game's developer. They are not for the subscribers to buy, sell or profit on. Like it or not, agree with it or not - you are agreeing to abide by the company's rules when you play the game and you are agreeing and acknowledging that you will be held accountable and penalized if you fail to do so. By participating in RMT, as a buyer or seller, you are violating those rules... and yes.. will be held accountable when caught. That so many people conveniently overlook that basic fact really bewilders me.
That failing, whatever you think of it - if the company catches and decides to ban you - guess what? You're screwed. You can argue all your pet theories with a company rep. all day long. You can argue all the way to the top of the ladder. You still lose. That alone should be self-evident enough that.... gee.. perhaps it's something you shouldn't be doing in the first place. Always amazes me how some people believe the rules don't apply to them. They have all these neat-sounding reasons, talking about "free-market societies" and all these big, bold and important-sounding theories... but in the end, it's all just empty self-serving rationalization.
This brings me to the next one:
3. "Well there's loop-holes in those EULAs. Any attorney will tell you that some of the items in there wouldn't hold up in court".
Okay... the absurdity of this mentality is so self-evident that it almost don't justify expanding on. But I will anyway - 'cause I'm in that kinda mood.
That you have to and would actually spend time finding *loopholes* in EULAs in order to feel justified with engaging in RMT speaks loud and clear, on its own, that you realize you're doing something the company doesn't approve. That there's something there that requires loopholes to be found in the first place should light up the "common-sense" parts of your brain like a fireworks display. They're not added as an "additional gameplay feature". They're certainly not there to *encourage* RMT.
Occam's Razor says, all things being equal, the simplest answer tends to be the correct one.
Well, in this case, the simplest answer is - those rules are in the EULA because... DING! the developer/publisher does not condone, allow nor approve of the buying or selling of any in-game assets outside of the game for real-world money (aka RMT)! Incredible how simple that is to comprehend!
On that note, "Well I never read the EULA" don't get you off the hook. Sorry, but that dog won't hunt. Ignorance isn't a free-pass to do as you wish without accountability. Whether you choose to read them or not is not the company's problem; you're still agreeing to abide by them and they still apply to you when you play the game.
1+1=2, folks.
4. "RMT does not affect the economy or negatively affect any other players. It's harmless".
Really? Well it certainly don't affect those who will freely pull out their credit card to buy the gold they need for everything they want. I guess it's easy to overlook the fallout of one's actions when they're simply buying their way past them. Ignorance is bliss, as they say.
For those who are actually *playing* the game as designed and earning accomplishments, however, it makes a huge impact.
I'll address that with one current real-world example...
Final Fantasy XI had a steadily inflating economy for some time. Items that used to go in the low 6 digits had gone up to several million... sometimes into the 10s of millions. Same items, same stats, same benefits.. but somehow many times the price. It had gotten to the point that people would leave the game because they simply couldn't afford the time to progress - without cheating/buying money.
This had nothing to do with RMT, you say?
Well... then explain this to me... Not too long ago, Square-Enix - developers of FFXI - created a task team *specifically* to track down and eliminate RMT and similar activities across their servers; something I applaud them for. Now.. before I go any further, read that first sentence again. SE are actively and aggressively banning accounts for RMT, among other expressely forbidden activities. They've already driven some of the lesser RMT companies from the game entirely. If they keep it up, it's only a matter of time before the bigger players follow suit. Now, this might come as a surprise to some of you... SE are doing this because *they don't approve of and forbid RMT-related activity in their game* - just like it says in the EULA that so many of you so gleefully ignore.
Is it sinking in yet?
Now.. to get back to the example... Since SE has implemented this task force, banning 1000s of accounts and removing 10s of billions of ill-gotten gil from the economy across all servers on a monthly basis - the prices on many items have come back down to almost where they were 2 years ago. I've almost fallen out of my seat a few times at how far they've dropped on items I've needed. People can suddenly afford to buy many items again that only some months ago were a pipe-dream for all but the pro-RMT players. Players can actually play the game again the way SE designed it to be and have a hope of obtaining the gear they want/need. For example, an item I once purchased for 450k peaked at over 4 million when the inflation was at its worst. Since SE started combating the RMT problem, I've recently seen that same item selling for around 370k - even lower than what I'd once paid for it.
So.. let's simplify this. Pre RMT control, inflation in FFXI went through the roof. Post RMT control, they are down to the lowest they've been, literally, in years. Black and White. Cause and Effect. Common-sense. RMT hurts the economy and throws the game out of balance for all but those willing to buy/cheat their way through.
And that's only *one* aspect of how it ruins the game for others.
There's also all the related activities and tactics the RMT farmers use to "run their business". Things such as monopolizing valuable assets/creatures/items in the game by using scripts/3rd party apps or exploits to get the upper-hand and control the market; continuously blocking legit players access. In all, what I've heard, read and experienced first-hand of how RMT has adversely affected honest players across the MMOs I've played could fill a novel.
Another example, legitimage players in FFXI can actually get at NMs (Notorious Monsters) that were once monopolized by RMT farmers 24/7, and have a real chance of getting the mob and/or the item they need. Their only competition being other legitimate players and the random nature of the drops themselves - as it should be. I recently spoke with a good friend in FFXI who was overjoyed that, for the first time in over 3 months, her linkshell (guild) successfully claimed a "god" NM that had been monopolized by RMT farmers using 3rd party hacks/bot programs, making it all but impossible to get at - and there wasn't a RMT farmer to be seen anywhere, thanks to SE's aggressive banning of such accounts.
By the by, in case you pro-RMT types didn't know - the 3rd-party hacks, botting programs and tactics used by RMT farmers to obtain the money you buy are *also* prohibited and are cause for account suspension or cancellation. Food for thought.
So, still don't believe RMT hurts the player base at large, in more ways than one? I would recommend opening your eyes, taking off the blinders and looking at the world outside yourself once in a while.
5. One of my favorite pro-RMT rebuttals: "Well, I realize that I'm helping put food on the table for someone in another country who otherwise wouldn't be able to afford it, so I'm not only making the game more enjoyable for myself.. I'm helping someone else"
Here.. you can have my violin. I won't be using it any time soon on this subject. Oh, and here's some paper towels to mop up after your bleeding heart. Again, this is a disingenuous and, frankly, shameful arguement some have made. You aren't buying money out of goodwill for anyone else. Please. Your reasons are entirely in self-interest. If you're that concerned about helping out some poor people in another country - or even in your own - find a good, worthwhile and honest charity that you agree with and send them the money instead. There are plenty of them. You're still helping others and you're not screwing things up for thousands of others in the process. Don't worry.. I'm not holding my breath on that one.
You send money to charities to help less fortunate people. You pay a subscription to a game company/publisher to play their MMO. MMOs are not Charities. Get it?
Just for once, I wish the pro-RMT people would drop the facade, stop the grand-standing, lose the lame, empty rationalizations and excuses and address it for what it is: Cheating.
You know man, I have mention this I think twice in this thread alone.. especially #'s 3 and 4.. just go back a page and you will see that >.>. Also I think I have probly mentioned everything you said a few times somewhere on this forum. There is one thing that reading your spill brought to mind tho that I wanted to point out.. look at first sentence of #3.. it really should be the nail in the coffin to all RMT.. my point is.. when you have to even think about getting lawers involed in a video game.. its gone way overboard!
For you RMT people out there that sell gold let me point this out to you:
GAME = FUN JOB = MONEY
For you buyers out there...
GAME = a place to RELAX and have fun, where you can escape REAL LIFE... I.E. thats why there is FAKE gold/money, NOT a place where REAL money should be king. Seriously, can you go much lower than purposly ruining hundreds/thousands of peoples fun because you are lazy? I know what the problem is, and its not the excuses you RMT people use. The truth is not that you just cant keep up because blah blah.. the truth is you are jealous perfectionists. If you see someone with an item you are to lazy to get yourself, you just buy it because someone is better than you.. I could elaborate more, but its late and I know you get the point, tho you wont admit it.
REAL LIFE = go to you job... make your money, if you really want to INVEST your money, put it in the stock market or something. If you want to buy nice things... how about buy some nice RL things like a new coat or shoes or a car, or take that family out to a movie... something where spending your money helps the RL community instead of destroying a fantasy one. Hell, if you have so much money that you want to buy fake money with your real money, donate it to some cancer research or something.
I do not think a lot of people really understand how this works. The market(players) dictates what is right and what is wrong. While reading the Bible I came upon a part where the people are angry at God for punishing them for their sins and they said that God is "wrong" in how the people were being treated. Now I try to apply logic to as many things in life as possible and came up with the questions of how do you tell God he is wrong? You don't because it is logically impossible for a creator to be wrong. How does this apply to the topic?
MMO's are not created to be "fun", they are created to make a profit. If a customer buys a brand new car and then takes it home and spray paints it pink, the car dealer has no option to tell him he is wrong. How do you tell your customers they are wrong, if you do not like what the customer does with your product after he/she buys it, maybe you are in the wrong market. This is just like prohibtion, the goverment tried to make it illegal but in the end the there was a demand and a supply, and the people won. These companies that make MMO's and then go out and rant and rave about how their paying customers suck because they buy/sell/trade items for cash are hipocrites. They themselves are making money off the sale of their title! The people simply cannot be "wrong" in a free market. You can compare the MMO cash market to prostitution, yes it is "morally" wrong but it has been here since time began and will be here untill time ends, heck it is even legal in two states and numerous countries!
You can fill the forums with debates, you can flame me, you can ban millions of accounts, and you change nothing, you cannot change the will of the people.(customer) The customer is always right,(sound familiar?) when there is no longer a demand the supply will cease to exist.
Now some advice, since you guys(Sigil) are with SOE, you should learn a lesson and go study Station Exchange. At least that way the "buyer" does not get ripped off, the seller makes his money, and SOE gets a little bit for themselves. And no I am not an SOE fan, they burned me three times with MMO's: Planetside, SWG, and some other forgotten title, But I am an honest peep and will give credit where it is due, and SOE deserves it for giving the buyer and seller the "entertainment" the "customer" desires.
The bottom line: Your customers have a desire, you WILL fill that desire or someone else will, and when they do and make the money from it, I do not what to hear you whining about it.
Originally posted by mongooser Sigh... I do not think a lot of people really understand how this works. The market(players) dictates what is right and what is wrong. While reading the Bible I came upon a part where the people are angry at God for punishing them for their sins and they said that God is "wrong" in how the people were being treated. Now I try to apply logic to as many things in life as possible and came up with the questions of how do you tell God he is wrong? You don't because it is logically impossible for a creator to be wrong. How does this apply to the topic? MMO's are not created to be "fun", they are created to make a profit. If a customer buys a brand new car and then takes it home and spray paints it pink, the car dealer has no option to tell him he is wrong. How do you tell your customers they are wrong, if you do not like what the customer does with your product after he/she buys it, maybe you are in the wrong market. This is just like prohibtion, the goverment tried to make it illegal but in the end the there was a demand and a supply, and the people won. These companies that make MMO's and then go out and rant and rave about how their paying customers suck because they buy/sell/trade items for cash are hipocrites. They themselves are making money off the sale of their title! The people simply cannot be "wrong" in a free market. You can compare the MMO cash market to prostitution, yes it is "morally" wrong but it has been here since time began and will be here untill time ends, heck it is even legal in two states and numerous countries! You can fill the forums with debates, you can flame me, you can ban millions of accounts, and you change nothing, you cannot change the will of the people.(customer) The customer is always right,(sound familiar?) when there is no longer a demand the supply will cease to exist. Now some advice, since you guys(Sigil) are with SOE, you should learn a lesson and go study Station Exchange. At least that way the "buyer" does not get ripped off, the seller makes his money, and SOE gets a little bit for themselves. And no I am not an SOE fan, they burned me three times with MMO's: Planetside, SWG, and some other forgotten title, But I am an honest peep and will give credit where it is due, and SOE deserves it for giving the buyer and seller the "entertainment" the "customer" desires. The bottom line: Your customers have a desire, you WILL fill that desire or someone else will, and when they do and make the money from it, I do not what to hear you whining about it.
Mongooser...
You might not be aware of this - and I do not say this in a condescending way - but when you buy a gamel.. any game... it does not become "yours". It is still the property of the company that developed it. You are paying them for licensing, so to speak, for the right to play it. ANd of course, part of it goes to paying for the media, the packaging, manuals, etc. Therefor, it is fully within the rights of the developer to tell you what you can and can't do with the game; an example is why software piracy is illegal.
Those terms of agreement in an mmo are there for a reason - they set the rules by which the company wants its game to be played by. You are playing your *copy* of the game - but you are still playing their game, run on their servers, maintained by their staff, updated by their developers. It is not yours to do whatever you want with - and you agree, every time you play the game, via the EULA, to *not* do those things. You are agreeing that if you do, that the company can and will hold you accountable.
Again, I don't care if this thread, or any other, went on for another 20 pages, the fact that I can provide pages of printed proof, links to sites where the companies themselves directly say that RMT, among other things, is prohibited in their game and the empirical fact that people are *banned* from the game for doing so trumps any theory or argument anyone can give.
So once again, if you choose to RMT, at least acknowledge that you are playing the game outside the intended parameters the company has designed it in and that you are doing something that is highly frowned upon and actively prohibited.
Stop trying to make it sound like it's perfectly honky-dory and great... Because there are mountains of proof that it isn't.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
"So once again, if you choose to RMT, at least acknowledge that you are playing the game outside the intended parameters the company has designed it in and that you are doing something that is highly frowned upon and actively prohibited."
Have you ever drove over the speed limit in your life? You are operating outside of the "parameters" of the vehicle and the law... I could ask you a million other "have you ever" questions, however I do not have the time to waste. If the MMO devs want that much control over the games then they should be "rentals" not "sales". Either way you still will not change the market, this will only be changed by the customers. How many years have we had a war on drugs? And that is actually against the law, I do not think EULA's, NDA's, or even a TOS has anything to do with "Law". So until this goes to court you are talking to a wall You can preach all you want it is all about supply and demand. Don't you find it funny that Blizzard bans 10k accounts and less then 2 months later their sales jumps 10k, well golly jee willickers I wonder who bought those 10k copies, making Blizzard another $500k in gross sales...
It does not matter to me either way, in fact I was the first player in WOW to have all the classes/crafting to level cap(60/300) 8 Horde on Nathrezim and a Pally on Bleeding Hollow. The account has been inactive more then a year, but I still have it. If I was hell bent on making money via MMO's would I not have sold it already? Of course if you wanted to make an offer...
Comments
The point that neither side touched on is that the gold farmers DO cause damage to the game and the community of players that reside within it. Actually, most of the folks in this thread that are supporting the gold sellers seem to think that these merchants of virtual wares operate within the confines of the intended game mechanics but seldomly is that the norm. They are already "breaking" the EULA so what sort of moral fiber is there to prevent them from exploiting to gain their goods faster and easier?
Let's look at some examples of how these "upstanding" vendors have operated in the past just with WoW...
Remember when Molten Core was really laggy and unstable about a year ago? Most players thought that it was the shoddy architecture on the part of the server programmers or bad code. No. Actually, it was neither of those. You see Molten Core resided on the same server blade as Maraudon. This dungeon was a hot-spot for level 60 hunter bot farmers back in the day since they could easily run and solo Gizlok. In doing a CPU consumption graph for said server blade, it was found that there were 2-3 instances of MC running and 150+ instances of Maraudon. Population of MC was 80-120 compared to a population of 15-20 for Maraudon. 5-10 of those folks would be actual groups running through while 5-10 were farmers. In short, the server blade would collapse under the weight of these farmers continually popping new instances and boy did that upset those folks in Molten Core. 60 seconds later when the blade would reboot, the farmers would log back in and start the process all over. This was not isolated to just a few realms... it was widespread across all of them. So, 5-10 farmers were spoiling the gameplay and advancement of 80-120 legitimate players all for the sake of free market economy.
The same was done by farmers using horde rogues to flip Uldaman over and over to kill the three dwarves which caused stress on other instances residing on that blade. Then the same was done again by farmers using warlocks to teleport hack to the Ogre King in Dire Maul and kill him with dots while they ported around safely. Or how about when leveling services first came on line and they did so by teleport hacking from Gadgetzan to Feralas to pick eggs from a nest to turn in for a repeatable quest. The quest was later disabled and set the bar that repeatable quests were not to be implimented without very stringent requirements. But... no, that has no impact on the player or the community.
Let's talk about accounts for a moment. I'll break this up into two sections; Yours and Theirs.
Theirs:
As seen in several posts made here the general perception is that these farmers pay for accounts and game time just as you and I do. In that, you are horribly mistaken. What happens is that large orders for boxes are places on internet marketplaces like Amazon with fraudulent credit cards to be shipped overseas. The package of 100's of boxes and game cards arrives in customs but is not claimed. The chinese customs agents then "auction" the unclaimed packages off for pennies on the dollar. So, no... they don't pay the same as you and I.
All of those advertisements that you get in the mail from gibberish names are accounts that have one purpose and one purpose only. That is to flood a realm with in-game mail and tells then get banned. Don't you think that if they paid retail box value that it would be a costly overhead to do such? 20 bucks times 200 realms times 2 factions... that's 8000 dollars just to advertise for one moment on all realms and both factions... for a period of 10 minutes. Think about it.
Yours:
Your account is nothing more than a secondary holding account to these folks. When the exploits dry up and a huge wave of account bans go through, guess where the gold comes from so they can keep up with demand. That's right, your account. How many of you know folks that have had their account compromised to find that it was cleaned out? How long did it take for them to get their gear/characters back? To give you an idea of the level that this has reached... WoW used to get 40-50 hacked accounts per week on average. After the mass bannings and the implimentation of Warden, it's 400-500 a week. Turn around has gone from 24 hours to over 2 weeks.
And that gives me a great segway for the topic of MMO Customer Service. I'll start off with a few questions.
How much do you think these gold farmers cost a company like Blizzard each year in manhours? How does their presence affect the paying customer's customer service experience?
A company like Blizzard will spend upwards of 20+ million this year in CS overhead alone. They have what... 500+ employees in the CS department alone spread across 2-3 locations in the U.S. alone? Some of which have the sole responsiblity for handling issues arising from compromised accounts and the identifcation/banning of farmer accounts. It costs Blizzard millions a year to combat this problem and keep it relatively under control. Programmer time. CS time. And... the most precious... Customer time. Ever been waiting for a response to a ticket and got frustrated with the wait? That's because there were 80+ people upset that they were handing out loot on Garr when the server blade died. That's because 100+ folks just got spam told in Orgrimmar to buy gold at a site. That's because player X just got trained by farmer Y because he was cutting into the bottom line. That's because your friend just got his account stripped so that they can resell the gold on a random site.
So, yes... farmers hurt the community. Farmers hurt the service. Farmers hurt you, the player.
Lets say a game has 1000 players. No botters, no farmers. Out of those
1000 players, 200 are hardcore(10-15 hours daily) and 800 are casuals
(1-10 hours daily). Every day, 200 people are earning 1 gold each
(total is 200), and casuals are earning 0.4 gold each (total is
320gold). Total daily gold earned is 520.
Now, lets say a server has 100 hardcore people, 200 farmers and 700 casuals.
100 hardcore=100gold
200 farmers (earch earns 3 gold becuase all they do is get gold, they
dont level they dont quest, they dont raid, they just farm the most
gold-earning mobs) = 600 gold
700 casuals = 280 gold
total 980 gold
so you see, if even 1/5 of the population are botters, the daily gold
generation increases dramaticaly. Of course those numbers are my
numbers. But I think they roughly reflect real numbers.
The whole idea why botters hurt the economy is not HOW they make their
money, but because they do that and ONLY that they hurt economy.
Its similar to "damping" - a financial term to describe selling
something at a price lower then the market price. This way you try to
kill your competitors and flood market with very cheap product. This
causes a lot of ecenomic damage and is often stricly regulated and
usualy illegal, especialy for imports. Similar stuff here, the sudden
flow of "extra" gold makes it cheaper and makes everything more
expensive. So everyone who doesnt farm and cant buy gold suddenly is
poorer for no apparent reason. Thats very bad for those guys.
I am the type of player where I like to do everything and anything from time to time.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor - pre-WW2 genocide.
Mr. Knowitall knows nothing.. i skipped alot when i seen this to post so anyway.. here is your proof.. Last Christmas, a 2ndary company had a "sale" on gold in a game that I play, Items that were 2 million gold shot up to over 20 million gold... items that were 10,000 gold even shot up over 1 million gold... the reason.. the RMT sellers that farm 60 hrs a week to get gold to sell flooded the market.. try keeping up with that when your not rich in RL or in the game to begin with. I was a casual gamer, having enough money to get me by but never being rich... I took a 2 week vacation for the holidays and came back and the game was like that... I barly had money to buy food to do quests or party. More proof: about 2 weeks ago, the game I play busted accounts involving RMT, items have easily take a 15-20% drop in that short period of time.. and are continuing to fall... the PROOF is in the pudding, everyone can see it, just you cheating people will always TRY to find a legitimate way to defend it. As a matter of fact.. take some of your own medicine, you TRY to prove 2ndary markets dont hurt MMO's.. i want you to try, but its fruitless, I just proved it hurts. Sad thing is, you RMT people always cry saying "its not fair" well how is it fair that me the casual player, cant keep up with a game because im not going to spend RL money on a game.... that is what is not fair..
One thing I have already mentioned in this thread, I would like to mention again.. I think RMT has POTENTIAL to be a good thing.. just has to be done right. A simple way that comes to mind.. for you companies out there.. take the 2ndary markets out.. provide your own market.. BUT, do it on reserved servers.. make 1/2 of them servers where if you want to buy gold you can.. the other half make forbidden.. and let players chose where they want to play.. its so simple and you people make it seem like rocket science. That solves both worlds.. people that want to buy gold can on those servers and its allowed and/or encouraged and no1 will complain.. the people on the other servers can go on playing the game they wnt to play and not worrying about RMT. Concept is simple, retarted people MAKE things difficult that think they are right and there is no other way and no1 will tell them because there is no way they could be wrong they do it and they are superior so it must be right ect ect.
I am the type of player where I like to do everything and anything from time to time.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor - pre-WW2 genocide.
Also your not taking into account the uninformed masses, and when your talking about the number of people we are talking about that's alot of people.
Then there's the loyalists, no matter how bad it gets they love the game and stay.
I was going to type more, but honestly there's no need.
You may find going into some area and spending 50 or 60 hours killing the same mobbies over and over again entertaining but that doesnt mean that others share your opinion. Someone once wrote that the proof of the existence of hell is repitition. Yet thats what these games encourage, mindnumbing reptition over and over again only so you keep paying a subscription fee like the other lemmings.
Fact of the matter is this: The way these games are developed the "rmt" does not take anythign away from you. Someone is still out there for those 50 or 60 hours, mind numbingly grinding away on mobbies then turning around and selling that stuff to someone else who doesnt enjoy that. If you feel a sense of accomplishment for being able to grind away to get that extra gold piece then more power to you. Someone else feels a sense of accomplishment by spending time with loved ones, playing a bit of a vid game, reading a book, having intercourse with someone other than themselves and having a good nights sleep before going to work in the morning.
You say people are missing the point of playing in the first place. I dont see how. They are able to log in, spend time with friends and log out. Isnt that what the point of these games are? I think the only one's deluding themselves are the ones that equate mindnumbing repetition with a challenge.
Okay, now you're getting into the realm of "what's the game all about". Look, every single MMORPG I've played (well with a few exceptions) has had * way* more to do than mindlessly stand around killing the same mobs over and over. That that's what many players reduce the game to because they don't have the imagination or inclination to *do* anything else in the game is not the fault of the designer. When I hear people say this about FFXI I just have to stare in disbelief.. there is TONS of content in FFXI. A player starting from scratch right now has easily over a year of content to get through, much of it challenging and not in the least involving, standing in a corner killing the same mobs over and over. Yet, regardless, that's what many end up doing anyway. Why? I have no bloody clue. Because they're masochists I guess.
Regardless of all that, how a person chooses to play the game, or believes the game is all about, does not exempt them from the terms they are agreeing to every time they play the game. Those terms include the understanding that RMT and other such activities are not allowed. Period. They are further agreeing that if they do so anyway and are caught that punitive actions - up to and including suspension or banning of their account can take place. How they choose to play the game is completely irrelevant to what they agree to do or not to do while playing it.
That's the point people seem to keep missing.
And if you (not *you* personally, severius; speaking in general here) lack the imagination or the desire to do anything but grind on the same mobs for hours and find it boring as hell and not fun... THEN CANCEL THE DAMN ACCOUNT AND PLAY SOMETHING YOU DO ENJOY. Or... perhaps try stepping outside the pattern you've fallen into and try something different in the game. Those are the only right answers.
Argue, debate, rationalize, theorize and hypothesize all you want, to whom ever you want. Regardless, it boils down to this:
If RMT is prohibited in a game you're playing and you partake in it anyway and are busted and subsequently banned... you have only yourself to blame. No degree of relativism or philosophy or crying is going to make you right.
So, why bother doing it in the first place?
Just play the damn game the way it was designed to be played or find something that better suits you.
End of story.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Also, to add to your answer to Brynn: WoW actively (or at least they
claim and seem to) hunts and deals with botters and farmers. Judging
from the player responces (a lot of them claim they were unfairily
banned), WoW does indeed ban a lot of alleged botters. Thats one of the
reasons I think WoW is not affected by botters/farmers as much. Also,
WoW is fun to play from low to mid and even high levels, so that also
decreases potential clientelle for gold-sellers. And the fact that
majority of players are casuals who dont realy play WoW for competition
but more for personal joy adds a tiny bit to this. Why buy gold when u
have enough to get by? The only REAL time you need gold is when buying
a mount. Armor and weapons, whether quest reward or loot, are adequate
all the way to the top.
Only the high high end is unbalanced and requires real effort to remain competetive with the others.
I am the type of player where I like to do everything and anything from time to time.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor - pre-WW2 genocide.
I'm nto saying that I don't understand the reason some people have a problem with the secondary market.
I hated dealing with bots and hearing "USA DOG YOU GO NOW" spewing from avatars in L2 as much as the next guy but in keeping with what I believe the initial point was, the overwhelming majority of these concerns are derived from the fact that this is because the secondary market wasn't accounted for in lineage 2.
Can anyone cite an mmorpg which was designed around 2nd market transactions that has failed? Even that new Korean game "Silkroad" is doing well being f2p and has an ingame item mall for real currency sales.
It had to be said sooner or later and I don't want to open a can of worms but it's amazing how much this whole debate sounds exactly like the debate to legalize merijuana.
Pro Legalization: Legalizing marijuana has a number of benefits. People are going to buy it anyways! This way, nobody get's thrown into prison and their lives ruined over a stupid law that shouldn't be anyway, plus think of what a boost to the economy it would be!
Anti-Legalization: That doesn't change the fact that it's wrong! It just is! We don't have to explain to you why it is but it just is alright!
People who are aggressively anti-2nd market are statistically those among us who play the most and typically either have no jobs or cannot/choose not to be successful in real life. The ability for those with money irl to purchase goods and services in these games means that those people who have no lives can no longer lord over those with lives so easily and that adults [I went ahead and said it] can buy their way onto the same level.
Maybe that sounded a tad crass but necessary
It was crass, arrogant, way over-generalized and, frankly, wrong.
I work a full-time job, and make pretty darn good money. If I chose to RMT my way through any MMO I play, I certainly could without missing a bill. I also, like so many others who use it as an excuse to RMT, have limited time to play. Regardless of all this I am still vehemently anti-RMT and believe in playing the game the designers created - not turning it into a pointless and challengeless hack-n-slash by just buying my way to every goal I have.
So, please, next time you want to try and make a point - do a little research first. Or perhaps just stick to speaking for yourself.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
That's what I was getting at. The farmers don't pay legitimately for their accounts. However, trial accounts in WoW are limited in that they can only get to level 20, can't mail, can't trade and can't send tells. The gold made with a trial account is minimal to what a level 60 rogue or hunter farmer can make per hour even factoring in the leveling time.
As for a link... I was speaking as an informed source on the matter. That sort of information isn't normally made public by any company in a formal fashion. I'll wait for the "screenshot or it didn't happen" reply.
I've been reading all these rebuttals, justifications and elaborate theories by people all over who are pro-RMT and I just can't help but wonder if half of these people realize how full of it they are. I can't believe some actually believe the crap they are spewing out. I have decided to post a long-format response to every argument I have ever seen given to date (though a few new ones have popped up in this thread - it's just impossible to keep up with all the new excuses pro-RMT folks dream up to justify that they're basically cheating their way through the game.. but I digress...)
Allow me to get to the main point here right at the start:
Except in the MMOs where it is specifically designed *into* the gameplay (such as Entropia Universe, or the Station Exchange servers for EQII), RMT is never... let me emphasize this... _not ever_ "okay" or justified or intended as a method of gameplay.
Now allow me to run through some of the more commonly used excuses for it and then point out just why they're BS.
1. "I have a wife/family/"other time-consuming responsibility here" and don't have tons of hours to play like some people do, so I have to buy gold in order to get things in a reasonable amount of time and stay competitive".
Nnnno... it'll just take you a little longer to achieve those things.
Every player is subject to the same challenges in achieving any particular quality gear, a mount, a level, etc. Developers do not arbitrarily and randomly make it harder for one person than it is for another. Outside of an obvious array of exceptions that don't involve buying gold through the so-called "second market", everyone is faced with the same degree of difficulty and requirements to aquire something. Likewise, every player is provided the same means, the same tools and the same options to acquire whatever it is they want - and it's all provided within the context of the gameplay. Buying money outside of the game to bypass all that is *not* one of those options.
Disagree? Fine. Find me any official game documentation that says otherwise and states buying in-game money for real cash is an intended and promoted form of gameplay. You won't. Because it isn't.
If someone can play 6 hours a day to devote toward a goal and you can only devote 6 hours a week, and you're both equal in terms of skill and wherewithall to acquire what you're after, common-sense dictates that they *should* get the item before you. It's not unfair. It doesn't present an "uneven playing field". It's called Real Life. Welcome to it. Having less time to play and/or more responsibilities than someone else does not entitle you to have an item any sooner or with any less effort than them.
The concept of an amount of time to achieve any given goal being "reasonable" is subjective; it's whatever an individual feels is worth investing toward a given goal. There is no official published documentation of how long it's "supposed-to" take every player to achieve a given goal. So, making any generalized statement of what a "reasonable" amount of time is is pointless. It's different for everyone.
That said, finding too many things in the game fall outside what you personally deem "reasonable" does not justify resorting to RMT to get around it. It might, and perhaps should make you reconsider whether you chose the right game, given your time availability and expectations of what you want to get out of the game in what time-frame. Here's a novel thought. Perhaps you should find a different kind of game to play that better suits your time availability. MMOs obviously require more time and involvement than you're willing or able to commit. Unfortunate - but, hey, just like anything else - nothing is for everybody.
2. "The RMT companies are providing a service that people want."
Close, but not specific enough. A more accurate way of putting it is: The RMT companies are providing a service for lazy people that just happens to go directly against the EULA that *every single player* agrees to when they install and play the game. The assets being bought/sold are property of their respective game's developer. They are not for the subscribers to buy, sell or profit on. Like it or not, agree with it or not - you are agreeing to abide by the company's rules when you play the game and you are agreeing and acknowledging that you will be held accountable and penalized if you fail to do so. By participating in RMT, as a buyer or seller, you are violating those rules... and yes.. will be held accountable when caught. That so many people conveniently overlook that basic fact really bewilders me.
That failing, whatever you think of it - if the company catches and decides to ban you - guess what? You're screwed. You can argue all your pet theories with a company rep. all day long. You can argue all the way to the top of the ladder. You still lose. That alone should be self-evident enough that.... gee.. perhaps it's something you shouldn't be doing in the first place. Always amazes me how some people believe the rules don't apply to them. They have all these neat-sounding reasons, talking about "free-market societies" and all these big, bold and important-sounding theories... but in the end, it's all just empty self-serving rationalization.
This brings me to the next one:
3. "Well there's loop-holes in those EULAs. Any attorney will tell you that some of the items in there wouldn't hold up in court".
Okay... the absurdity of this mentality is so self-evident that it almost don't justify expanding on. But I will anyway - 'cause I'm in that kinda mood.
That you have to and would actually spend time finding *loopholes* in EULAs in order to feel justified with engaging in RMT speaks loud and clear, on its own, that you realize you're doing something the company doesn't approve. That there's something there that requires loopholes to be found in the first place should light up the "common-sense" parts of your brain like a fireworks display. They're not added as an "additional gameplay feature". They're certainly not there to *encourage* RMT.
Occam's Razor says, all things being equal, the simplest answer tends to be the correct one.
Well, in this case, the simplest answer is - those rules are in the EULA because... DING! the developer/publisher does not condone, allow nor approve of the buying or selling of any in-game assets outside of the game for real-world money (aka RMT)! Incredible how simple that is to comprehend!
On that note, "Well I never read the EULA" don't get you off the hook. Sorry, but that dog won't hunt. Ignorance isn't a free-pass to do as you wish without accountability. Whether you choose to read them or not is not the company's problem; you're still agreeing to abide by them and they still apply to you when you play the game.
1+1=2, folks.
4. "RMT does not affect the economy or negatively affect any other players. It's harmless".
Really? Well it certainly don't affect those who will freely pull out their credit card to buy the gold they need for everything they want. I guess it's easy to overlook the fallout of one's actions when they're simply buying their way past them. Ignorance is bliss, as they say.
For those who are actually *playing* the game as designed and earning accomplishments, however, it makes a huge impact.
I'll address that with one current real-world example...
Final Fantasy XI had a steadily inflating economy for some time. Items that used to go in the low 6 digits had gone up to several million... sometimes into the 10s of millions. Same items, same stats, same benefits.. but somehow many times the price. It had gotten to the point that people would leave the game because they simply couldn't afford the time to progress - without cheating/buying money.
This had nothing to do with RMT, you say?
Well... then explain this to me... Not too long ago, Square-Enix - developers of FFXI - created a task team *specifically* to track down and eliminate RMT and similar activities across their servers; something I applaud them for. Now.. before I go any further, read that first sentence again. SE are actively and aggressively banning accounts for RMT, among other expressely forbidden activities. They've already driven some of the lesser RMT companies from the game entirely. If they keep it up, it's only a matter of time before the bigger players follow suit. Now, this might come as a surprise to some of you... SE are doing this because *they don't approve of and forbid RMT-related activity in their game* - just like it says in the EULA that so many of you so gleefully ignore.
Is it sinking in yet?
Now.. to get back to the example... Since SE has implemented this task force, banning 1000s of accounts and removing 10s of billions of ill-gotten gil from the economy across all servers on a monthly basis - the prices on many items have come back down to almost where they were 2 years ago. I've almost fallen out of my seat a few times at how far they've dropped on items I've needed. People can suddenly afford to buy many items again that only some months ago were a pipe-dream for all but the pro-RMT players. Players can actually play the game again the way SE designed it to be and have a hope of obtaining the gear they want/need. For example, an item I once purchased for 450k peaked at over 4 million when the inflation was at its worst. Since SE started combating the RMT problem, I've recently seen that same item selling for around 370k - even lower than what I'd once paid for it.
So.. let's simplify this. Pre RMT control, inflation in FFXI went through the roof. Post RMT control, they are down to the lowest they've been, literally, in years. Black and White. Cause and Effect. Common-sense. RMT hurts the economy and throws the game out of balance for all but those willing to buy/cheat their way through.
And that's only *one* aspect of how it ruins the game for others.
There's also all the related activities and tactics the RMT farmers use to "run their business". Things such as monopolizing valuable assets/creatures/items in the game by using scripts/3rd party apps or exploits to get the upper-hand and control the market; continuously blocking legit players access. In all, what I've heard, read and experienced first-hand of how RMT has adversely affected honest players across the MMOs I've played could fill a novel.
Another example, legitimage players in FFXI can actually get at NMs (Notorious Monsters) that were once monopolized by RMT farmers 24/7, and have a real chance of getting the mob and/or the item they need. Their only competition being other legitimate players and the random nature of the drops themselves - as it should be. I recently spoke with a good friend in FFXI who was overjoyed that, for the first time in over 3 months, her linkshell (guild) successfully claimed a "god" NM that had been monopolized by RMT farmers using 3rd party hacks/bot programs, making it all but impossible to get at - and there wasn't a RMT farmer to be seen anywhere, thanks to SE's aggressive banning of such accounts.
By the by, in case you pro-RMT types didn't know - the 3rd-party hacks, botting programs and tactics used by RMT farmers to obtain the money you buy are *also* prohibited and are cause for account suspension or cancellation. Food for thought.
So, still don't believe RMT hurts the player base at large, in more ways than one? I would recommend opening your eyes, taking off the blinders and looking at the world outside yourself once in a while.
5. One of my favorite pro-RMT rebuttals: "Well, I realize that I'm helping put food on the table for someone in another country who otherwise wouldn't be able to afford it, so I'm not only making the game more enjoyable for myself.. I'm helping someone else"
Here.. you can have my violin. I won't be using it any time soon on this subject. Oh, and here's some paper towels to mop up after your bleeding heart. Again, this is a disingenuous and, frankly, shameful arguement some have made. You aren't buying money out of goodwill for anyone else. Please. Your reasons are entirely in self-interest. If you're that concerned about helping out some poor people in another country - or even in your own - find a good, worthwhile and honest charity that you agree with and send them the money instead. There are plenty of them. You're still helping others and you're not screwing things up for thousands of others in the process. Don't worry.. I'm not holding my breath on that one.
You send money to charities to help less fortunate people. You pay a subscription to a game company/publisher to play their MMO. MMOs are not Charities. Get it?
Just for once, I wish the pro-RMT people would drop the facade, stop the grand-standing, lose the lame, empty rationalizations and excuses and address it for what it is: Cheating.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
The problem with this debate is that so many people have no idea what they're talking about, or just don't care that they have no idea.
You have people talking economics without any real conception of how it works. You have people making twisted arguments that it's somehow not cheating to break the rules.
It's pointless.
As was mentioned in an earlier post, I'd like to ask - If there were two servers for a game, 1 being free from RMT, and 2 being RMT-friendly, would these RMT players really play on the RMT server?
I highly doubt it because I have a good feeling that people who buy online items with RM don't do it so they can keep up, but because they want to surpass people.
Careful... someone's likely to state your opinion carries no weight because you only have 6 posts... Many in forums like these fancy that as an argument-winner. I'm pretty sure they're all pro-RMT, as well.. just a guess. -rolls eyes-
And I agree. People don't want a level playing field - they want to be better, or at the very least "not worse than" anyone else. And, somehow, in their logic, despite the fact that there's 50, 60, 100+++ levels of quests and various challenging content designed, tested and provided by the developers to play through to reach that level of play, they seem to be fully convinced that somehow.. none of that applies to them. No no.. they're above all that. They're a top-level player in a new-character's body.. they just have to buy the right gear and they'll be right where they belong... at the top with the "big boys". Earning your gear? Learning to play as you go along? Being *challenged*? Pfft.. who has time for that.. especially when you have VISA!
-rolls eyes again-
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Time is money
and the more people that play the game the more potential buyers of items and more people will be farmers
I dont really see any way to stop the selling of items/gold, as long as the demand is there people will farm it and sell it.
I played on an exhange server for EQ2 and never had any issue geting the money to buy items I needed, I never bought or sold any gold, items or chars.
also about companies supporting RMT like the exchange, most people I knew that bought gold would never buy it on the exchange, they would always go to thrid party sites where it was cheaper.
as along as farmers can hide in their instances and non pvp safe zones, or not worry about their gear/money being lost on death there will be tons of them
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Achiever 20.00%, Explorer 86.67%, Killer 60.00%, Socializer 33.33%
EKSA
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That's what I was getting at. The farmers don't pay legitimately for their accounts. However, trial accounts in WoW are limited in that they can only get to level 20, can't mail, can't trade and can't send tells. The gold made with a trial account is minimal to what a level 60 rogue or hunter farmer can make per hour even factoring in the leveling time. As for a link... I was speaking as an informed source on the matter. That sort of information isn't normally made public by any company in a formal fashion. I'll wait for the "screenshot or it didn't happen" reply.
I was not aware of the trial account limitations... Thnx for clearing that up for me. Im guessing WoW would have a different type of Botter, a living botter. Ive heard thats what they do nowadays, instead of running a program that "farms" for u, an actual person is doing it. In that way, they arent realy breaking any laws, becuase a human is always present at the keyboard. And yet the detrimental effect to the economy and community remains.Im glad im getting too old for MMORPGs in general, Id hate to see great games ruined because of this.
I am the type of player where I like to do everything and anything from time to time.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor - pre-WW2 genocide.
I'm nto saying that I don't understand the reason some people have a problem with the secondary market.
I hated dealing with bots and hearing "USA DOG YOU GO NOW" spewing from avatars in L2 as much as the next guy but in keeping with what I believe the initial point was, the overwhelming majority of these concerns are derived from the fact that this is because the secondary market wasn't accounted for in lineage 2.
Can anyone cite an mmorpg which was designed around 2nd market transactions that has failed? Even that new Korean game "Silkroad" is doing well being f2p and has an ingame item mall for real currency sales.
It had to be said sooner or later and I don't want to open a can of worms but it's amazing how much this whole debate sounds exactly like the debate to legalize merijuana.
Pro Legalization: Legalizing marijuana has a number of benefits. People are going to buy it anyways! This way, nobody get's thrown into prison and their lives ruined over a stupid law that shouldn't be anyway, plus think of what a boost to the economy it would be!
Anti-Legalization: That doesn't change the fact that it's wrong! It just is! We don't have to explain to you why it is but it just is alright!
People who are aggressively anti-2nd market are statistically those among us who play the most and typically either have no jobs or cannot/choose not to be successful in real life. The ability for those with money irl to purchase goods and services in these games means that those people who have no lives can no longer lord over those with lives so easily and that adults [I went ahead and said it] can buy their way onto the same level.
Maybe that sounded a tad crass but necessary
It was crass, arrogant, way over-generalized and, frankly, wrong.
I work a full-time job, and make pretty darn good money. If I chose to RMT my way through any MMO I play, I certainly could without missing a bill. I also, like so many others who use it as an excuse to RMT, have limited time to play. Regardless of all this I am still vehemently anti-RMT and believe in playing the game the designers created - not turning it into a pointless and challengeless hack-n-slash by just buying my way to every goal I have.
So, please, next time you want to try and make a point - do a little research first. Or perhaps just stick to speaking for yourself.
I agree with WSIMike. The only ones who will benefit from this are the most hardcore people, the ones who do have time to farm gold and rare items. if anything, they wouldnt mind making a buck or two by selling items, gold or their characters. Why would they be anti-RMT? Yeah their super duper sword is not gonna be THAT unique, but once he sells that sword for 500USD$ im guessing hed be very happy.
Its the small folk that get hurt the most, the folks that have no time to farm, so they keep falling below the competetive line and eventualy end up washed out heroes with rusty armor and unable to get a group or PvP becuase everyone else around them fancies flaming sword of uberness, whether farmed by self or bought by money. These folk would be forced to spend more time farming. buy stuff, quit or do nothing and remain the same old character with rusty armor.
I am the type of player where I like to do everything and anything from time to time.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor - pre-WW2 genocide.
Farming occurs becuase people buy stuff. People buy stuff becuase they want to be better the others and they dont want to work for it. These types of people should keep playing single player games, where they can type IDDQD turn god mode and ruin the game for themselves. At least they wont affect me and countless other people who like to play games as they were intended to play. Farming/botting is as bad as cheating/hacking in game.
I am the type of player where I like to do everything and anything from time to time.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor - pre-WW2 genocide.
Now I remember why I swore off public forums two years ago. I had forgot how angry it can make a person after the 9th time they have to repeat themselves.
Let's make it a round number.
Lineage 2 Didn't account for The secondary Market
This has been stated on almost every single page in this discussion.
www.Divergence-Online.com
You know man, I have mention this I think twice in this thread alone.. especially #'s 3 and 4.. just go back a page and you will see that >.>. Also I think I have probly mentioned everything you said a few times somewhere on this forum. There is one thing that reading your spill brought to mind tho that I wanted to point out.. look at first sentence of #3.. it really should be the nail in the coffin to all RMT.. my point is.. when you have to even think about getting lawers involed in a video game.. its gone way overboard!
For you RMT people out there that sell gold let me point this out to you:
GAME = FUN JOB = MONEY
For you buyers out there...
GAME = a place to RELAX and have fun, where you can escape REAL LIFE... I.E. thats why there is FAKE gold/money, NOT a place where REAL money should be king. Seriously, can you go much lower than purposly ruining hundreds/thousands of peoples fun because you are lazy? I know what the problem is, and its not the excuses you RMT people use. The truth is not that you just cant keep up because blah blah.. the truth is you are jealous perfectionists. If you see someone with an item you are to lazy to get yourself, you just buy it because someone is better than you.. I could elaborate more, but its late and I know you get the point, tho you wont admit it.
REAL LIFE = go to you job... make your money, if you really want to INVEST your money, put it in the stock market or something. If you want to buy nice things... how about buy some nice RL things like a new coat or shoes or a car, or take that family out to a movie... something where spending your money helps the RL community instead of destroying a fantasy one. Hell, if you have so much money that you want to buy fake money with your real money, donate it to some cancer research or something.
Sigh...
I do not think a lot of people really understand how this works. The market(players) dictates what is right and what is wrong. While reading the Bible I came upon a part where the people are angry at God for punishing them for their sins and they said that God is "wrong" in how the people were being treated. Now I try to apply logic to as many things in life as possible and came up with the questions of how do you tell God he is wrong? You don't because it is logically impossible for a creator to be wrong. How does this apply to the topic?
MMO's are not created to be "fun", they are created to make a profit. If a customer buys a brand new car and then takes it home and spray paints it pink, the car dealer has no option to tell him he is wrong. How do you tell your customers they are wrong, if you do not like what the customer does with your product after he/she buys it, maybe you are in the wrong market. This is just like prohibtion, the goverment tried to make it illegal but in the end the there was a demand and a supply, and the people won. These companies that make MMO's and then go out and rant and rave about how their paying customers suck because they buy/sell/trade items for cash are hipocrites. They themselves are making money off the sale of their title! The people simply cannot be "wrong" in a free market. You can compare the MMO cash market to prostitution, yes it is "morally" wrong but it has been here since time began and will be here untill time ends, heck it is even legal in two states and numerous countries!
You can fill the forums with debates, you can flame me, you can ban millions of accounts, and you change nothing, you cannot change the will of the people.(customer) The customer is always right,(sound familiar?) when there is no longer a demand the supply will cease to exist.
Now some advice, since you guys(Sigil) are with SOE, you should learn a lesson and go study Station Exchange. At least that way the "buyer" does not get ripped off, the seller makes his money, and SOE gets a little bit for themselves. And no I am not an SOE fan, they burned me three times with MMO's: Planetside, SWG, and some other forgotten title, But I am an honest peep and will give credit where it is due, and SOE deserves it for giving the buyer and seller the "entertainment" the "customer" desires.
The bottom line: Your customers have a desire, you WILL fill that desire or someone else will, and when they do and make the money from it, I do not what to hear you whining about it.
You might not be aware of this - and I do not say this in a condescending way - but when you buy a gamel.. any game... it does not become "yours". It is still the property of the company that developed it. You are paying them for licensing, so to speak, for the right to play it. ANd of course, part of it goes to paying for the media, the packaging, manuals, etc. Therefor, it is fully within the rights of the developer to tell you what you can and can't do with the game; an example is why software piracy is illegal.
Those terms of agreement in an mmo are there for a reason - they set the rules by which the company wants its game to be played by. You are playing your *copy* of the game - but you are still playing their game, run on their servers, maintained by their staff, updated by their developers. It is not yours to do whatever you want with - and you agree, every time you play the game, via the EULA, to *not* do those things. You are agreeing that if you do, that the company can and will hold you accountable.
Again, I don't care if this thread, or any other, went on for another 20 pages, the fact that I can provide pages of printed proof, links to sites where the companies themselves directly say that RMT, among other things, is prohibited in their game and the empirical fact that people are *banned* from the game for doing so trumps any theory or argument anyone can give.
So once again, if you choose to RMT, at least acknowledge that you are playing the game outside the intended parameters the company has designed it in and that you are doing something that is highly frowned upon and actively prohibited.
Stop trying to make it sound like it's perfectly honky-dory and great... Because there are mountains of proof that it isn't.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Hmmm, I like this part:
"So once again, if you choose to RMT, at least acknowledge that you are playing the game outside the intended parameters the company has designed it in and that you are doing something that is highly frowned upon and actively prohibited."
Have you ever drove over the speed limit in your life? You are operating outside of the "parameters" of the vehicle and the law... I could ask you a million other "have you ever" questions, however I do not have the time to waste. If the MMO devs want that much control over the games then they should be "rentals" not "sales". Either way you still will not change the market, this will only be changed by the customers. How many years have we had a war on drugs? And that is actually against the law, I do not think EULA's, NDA's, or even a TOS has anything to do with "Law". So until this goes to court you are talking to a wall
You can preach all you want it is all about supply and demand. Don't you find it funny that Blizzard bans 10k accounts and less then 2 months later their sales jumps 10k, well golly jee willickers I wonder who bought those 10k copies, making Blizzard another $500k in gross sales...
It does not matter to me either way, in fact I was the first player in WOW to have all the classes/crafting to level cap(60/300) 8 Horde on Nathrezim and a Pally on Bleeding Hollow. The account has been inactive more then a year, but I still have it. If I was hell bent on making money via MMO's would I not have sold it already? Of course if you wanted to make an offer...