Actually I don't think either won the debate. It seemed more like information...our side and the "dark" side. I have played games ever since pong came out on a home console and lately have been trying to keep up with a virtual world in WOW. I have to say I really hope that Brad pulls off an excellent and fair game with his upcoming release...(and pray Sony gives him grace to "not" have an exchange server). Brad seems a man of moral fiber when it comes to producing a game that is true to what an mmorpg should be, such as was Garriott.
And by the way, who would be whining after court should our "non-Korean" court (America is grand aint' it) decide that this intellectual property was the game company's property. Oh the RIAA says you don't really own the darned music on that "Deck the Halls" cd you bought this Christmas. Nope...that's why clubs have to pay a royalties fee just to PLAY the jukebox. So you work hard at your company and toil laboriously...............Does that mean you own it. Ha! You'd be fired if you said that.
My wife and I play together and she actually plays alot more than myself being a stay at home mom. We have 3 children all with difficulties and cannot afford the luxury to dish out another 100,200, etc. dollars to go buy gold just to keep up with an inflating game economy. The real world is bad enough as it is, and we would like to have a fantasy world to sometimes escape to that isn't plagued by someone south of Ho Chi Minh City saying "buy gold for horse.1000g for $200.00. In which I hurriedly look up on Swearmonger, how to say "you idiot" in Mandarin. Good thing my virtual hands do not come through the computer screen at them.
Ye who buy the gold. You screw our game up!!! stop.. Go get drunk or something, money much better spent. Everytime you buy gold, a paladin winds up naked somewhere. Some of you know what I mean. And the gold sellers know exactly what I mean
Nope nope, the stuff on it and in it belongs to the game producer/company and I will be so glad to get this debate over once and for all. Brad, tell Sony to take it to court. Get some advice from the RIAA first.(wink)
To the people that have been saying that Secondary Markets are okay because it is not unethical and not cheating as opposed to hacking, you are wrong. What is the definition of cheating? Disobeying the rules of the game. When you agree to the TOS and EULA you are agreeing to a legal contract and the rules of the game. If in those documents it says that you cannot buy and sell items for real life currency, you are then breaking the rules, thus cheating.
To the Korean court case: I don't know how the courts work over there. I do however know any court of law in the United States of America would recognize any legal binding contract that you agree to when you log into an MMO, and that the intellectual properties of the said company were specific in a said contract that you may not sell them.
------------------------------ "Capitalism is currently working as intended."
I read the debate and a couple pages of the comments.
It seems to me that what is taking place in the Gaming community regarding the secondary market is not only a shift by the companies producing these games but also a shift in competative values.
Let me spin something for everyone to consider: What is the purpose of gaming?
Is it not to challenge the player? Can you name one single game or sport that is not intended to challenge you in some way? Even when there is no winner or loser, there is still someone who competed better then everyone else. Games were created and are still created to challenge you, the player.
The problem is, some opportunistic types see that there is money to be made by giving some players a way to cheat or overcome some of the challenges in the game. And some players take those easy outs and explain it away by saying.. "We'll I work all day and can't play the game as much as so-and-so." or "I don't belong to a super-Guild and can't achieve end-game items."
But what these players don't understand is that they are bypassing the challenge, or the spirit, of the game. This is called cheating, no matter how you look at it, it is cheating. It violates the rules of the game (i.e. the EULA) and it doesnt matter if those rules are invalid in a court of law or not, they ARE the rules of the game. Just because a court of law says you have the right to vioate those rules, doesnt mean that it is proper or ethical to do so.
Unfortunetely many, many people just don't understand how to be ethical or how to play a game the way it was intended to be played. Either they just really don't "get" the spirit of the game, or they enjoy causing mayhem and holding their ill-gotten goods over other people who made their accomplishments legitametly.
And the example Mr Kipe gave about the boat is completely invalid in this debate. We are not talking about boat building, we are talking about gaming. And gaming comes with a set of rules that players are expected to follow. Not because it is a matter of life and death, or because they are forced to, just because that is the way the game was meant to be played. If you want an example here is a better one... When you play Monopoly with your friends do you allow them to start with $10,000 each? No. Why? Because the game was not made to be played that way and not only do they have an unfair advantage but the challenge, the spirit of the game is lost.
It's not about comparing yourself to another player, Mr Kipe is correct in that statement. But the shift in competative values that Mr Kipe advocates is a no-win situation for everyone including the secondary black market which is now being devoured by studios who allow the purchasing of items. The secondary market is a beast that will continue to spawn bad idea after bad idea for decades to come. And it is a shame.
I can't say too much how I hate people breaking the rules and then thinking they are better than other people for doing it. Stupid.
[quote]Roger Kipe: I will address both of your arguments:
I had a friend that once built a boat. It took him a great deal of time and was all he thought about for as long as some of his friends could remember. He celebrated with all of his friends when he finished the project and took everyone out to see how great the ship performed. He was as proud of himself for the work he had done as for the ability to show it to others. We saw plenty of other boats that day on the lake and some were much more beautiful and clearly worth more money but this did not deter my friend from gleaming like a beacon as he knew it was the work and dedication he had put in that made his special and it did not matter how the others had gotten their boats....[/quote]
Anyone else thknk this analogy is fundamentaly flawed ? I understand where he's coming from, and I agree about the value of accomplishements, but the analogy doesn't hold the road because there are too many differences between the environnements (RL vs MMO) that makes it pointless IMO.
Let us look at the thought patterns for a momment.
I have money. Someone is offering an item in a game. I can buy that item in the game. My agreement says I cannot. The agreement cannot stop me. I can hide the fact that I have broken the agreement. I do not agree to the EULA. The EULA says I must agree to play. I will play even though I do not agree.
I promise you wages. You work for me and perform X amount of hours. I never actually agreed to pay you. I just wanted you to work. I am not going to pay you. It is easier for me to not pay you. I still want you to work for me.
What is wrong here? What kind of morality are we upholding for ourselves and others? We sure can do things. We have arms and legs. We have mouths and hands. We can write a word, or stab someone. But does it make us good or evil? And let me ask you, how would you like the world to be? Well the world is what it is right?
I would think that it all comes down to who is getting the money; its all about the money. If I was CEO of a company that created a product and other third parties were making money off of it I would prolly be upset. But IMO I think that third parties are going to continue to make profits where they can, and publishers are going to make money where they can as well. Thats after all the nature of retail, to make a profit. We all know this is a multi-million dollar industry and ther is alot of money involved. Wether or not its right, or fair, or effects the game in a positive way or a negative one.
Without aid from the Federal/State Legislature, how do you combat something like this? In any case, if you spend money battling these third parties I would expect to see an inflation in monthly costs etc. and that defeats the purpose of trying to make a dollar in the first place.
I think that the issue is gonna be to fork out dollars to combat it, (lots of it) or find a means of tolerating it and directing revenues back toward the game itself. Then there is always the issue of tax from Good old IRS.
The truth is third party companies have been in business for a reason, and I'm willing to bet its because they have made good profits. That said, there are a vast majority out there willing to pay money that publishers want, for in game items. I would expect to see more companies and third parties find common ground on a subject If they are in fact revenue driven.
I am not agreeing or disagreeing only I feel money and greed will prevail in a corporate world where millions are at stake.
Originally posted by redavni Brad is the obvious winner of this debate. It was fun to see the gold seller stoop to name-calling, and whining.
Honestly I don't care if people buy gold, just not on my server. Go do it on your own server where you can play with all the rest of the people who don't see the value in achievement.
Wow. What article did you read?
Heck, Brad is the one who used the lawsuit card instead of actually coming up with a thought-provoking argument.
I can't say too much how I hate people breaking the rules and then thinking they are better than other people for doing it. Stupid.
[quote]Roger Kipe: I will address both of your arguments: I had a friend that once built a boat. It took him a great deal of time and was all he thought about for as long as some of his friends could remember. He celebrated with all of his friends when he finished the project and took everyone out to see how great the ship performed. He was as proud of himself for the work he had done as for the ability to show it to others. We saw plenty of other boats that day on the lake and some were much more beautiful and clearly worth more money but this did not deter my friend from gleaming like a beacon as he knew it was the work and dedication he had put in that made his special and it did not matter how the others had gotten their boats....[/quote]
Anyone else thknk this analogy is fundamentaly flawed ? I understand where he's coming from, and I agree about the value of accomplishements, but the analogy doesn't hold the road because there are too many differences between the environnements (RL vs MMO) that makes it pointless IMO.
Doesn't matter. All pro-RMT types need is a rationale that makes sense to them... doesn't matter how quickly it falls apart under genuine scrutiny or how far removed it is from basic common-sense.. If it's something they can wrap their head around and suits them, it's a rock solid reason. A read of this thread, alone, shows that.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
This was one of my posts from before the database loss here...
1. An item I wanted to get in FFXI that was going for 100k shot up to over 500k by the time I'd obtained the money to buy it. This was prior to SE cracking down on the RMT problem.. Since then, that same item is back down to around 100k
2. A Ju-jitsu Gi, another piece of gear in FFXI, cost me 450k at the time I bought it. After that, but before SE started dealing with the RMT problem seriously, the influx of RMT-generated gil in the economy caused the prices of that item - alone - to go up over 3 million. Square started cracking down on the RMT and I've since seen it back down as low as 370k but hanging around 450-500k - about the same price I paid for it 2 years ago.
3. In Lineage II, RMT is so ingrained and the farmers/botters have such a strangle-hold on the economy that when NC does do a token banning, it screws many people up and the prices are all over the place, until the RMT folks get new toons to take their place. Seen this happen a few times.
4. In a few MMOs I've played, RMT botters/farmers will monopolize rare mobs and, in some cases, go as far as attempting to kill off players competing for the spawn. This is the case even in games without PvP. It was a big problem in FFXI before SE stepped in and changed things around.
To address your FFXI concerns the price of items in game inflated so drastically not because of RMT initially, in 2004 a dupe came out in FFXI that lasted until Jan 2006, I would blame SE for not having any control over their game mechanics and not having the checks in place to notice that there was billions of gil a day being added to the economy. You know how the dupe was fixed? Because finally some responsible RMT company found out what was taking place to dupe and contacted SE to hand in the information. A dupe is just as bad for the RMT market as it is for the game economy and players. Then again around March 2006 another dupe ran rampant and again economy started to take a crap, mass supply of gil caused inflation on prices of items. Once again it took an RMT company to turn over the dupe to SE to get it fixed.
As for the camping of rare spawns ect ect this is stemming from the production side of the market, the farming market. This is not Mogs or any other respectable company in the market paying people to go farm, honestly Mogs gets a majority of the currency we sell from Players not from farms. That is how the market was when I started, buying an account strip it down, sell off items in game then sell account and plat. That did not add extra currency to the economy it kept it at the same level.. no inflation! Now things have changed and yes mass farming can cause inflation.. but not to the degree you all think, the inflation is coming about from dupes and hacks. The farms are playing the game, not exploiting and selling items off in Auction Houses to get the currency.. so there is still the intended exchange of Item for Currency.. so its still semi staying in line with the game mechanics of economic development of the server.
I know that due to the RMT market being in place there is an incentive for hackers/dupers to find the next get rich quick bug in a game. But even without our market in place there would still be hacks/ dupes just for players to get an advantage. I mean look at all the cheat/ hack pay sites, you think those would disappear and suddenly the games would become Pure if RMT just dried up? Lets face it whether its in real life or in game people like to get one step ahead and sometimes they will do whatever it takes to get there.
This was one of my posts from before the database loss here...
1. An item I wanted to get in FFXI that was going for 100k shot up to over 500k by the time I'd obtained the money to buy it. This was prior to SE cracking down on the RMT problem.. Since then, that same item is back down to around 100k
2. A Ju-jitsu Gi, another piece of gear in FFXI, cost me 450k at the time I bought it. After that, but before SE started dealing with the RMT problem seriously, the influx of RMT-generated gil in the economy caused the prices of that item - alone - to go up over 3 million. Square started cracking down on the RMT and I've since seen it back down as low as 370k but hanging around 450-500k - about the same price I paid for it 2 years ago.
3. In Lineage II, RMT is so ingrained and the farmers/botters have such a strangle-hold on the economy that when NC does do a token banning, it screws many people up and the prices are all over the place, until the RMT folks get new toons to take their place. Seen this happen a few times.
4. In a few MMOs I've played, RMT botters/farmers will monopolize rare mobs and, in some cases, go as far as attempting to kill off players competing for the spawn. This is the case even in games without PvP. It was a big problem in FFXI before SE stepped in and changed things around.
To address your FFXI concerns the price of items in game inflated so drastically not because of RMT initially, in 2004 a dupe came out in FFXI that lasted until Jan 2006, I would blame SE for not having any control over their game mechanics and not having the checks in place to notice that there was billions of gil a day being added to the economy. You know how the dupe was fixed? Because finally some responsible RMT company found out what was taking place to dupe and contacted SE to hand in the information. A dupe is just as bad for the RMT market as it is for the game economy and players. Then again around March 2006 another dupe ran rampant and again economy started to take a crap, mass supply of gil caused inflation on prices of items. Once again it took an RMT company to turn over the dupe to SE to get it fixed.
As for the camping of rare spawns ect ect this is stemming from the production side of the market, the farming market. This is not Mogs or any other respectable company in the market paying people to go farm, honestly Mogs gets a majority of the currency we sell from Players not from farms. That is how the market was when I started, buying an account strip it down, sell off items in game then sell account and plat. That did not add extra currency to the economy it kept it at the same level.. no inflation! Now things have changed and yes mass farming can cause inflation.. but not to the degree you all think, the inflation is coming about from dupes and hacks. The farms are playing the game, not exploiting and selling items off in Auction Houses to get the currency.. so there is still the intended exchange of Item for Currency.. so its still semi staying in line with the game mechanics of economic development of the server.
I know that due to the RMT market being in place there is an incentive for hackers/dupers to find the next get rich quick bug in a game. But even without our market in place there would still be hacks/ dupes just for players to get an advantage. I mean look at all the cheat/ hack pay sites, you think those would disappear and suddenly the games would become Pure if RMT just dried up? Lets face it whether its in real life or in game people like to get one step ahead and sometimes they will do whatever it takes to get there.
First, I wonder why you made sure to quote my text in dark grey, making it so hard to read....? Why ever would you do that? I know these forums don't do that by default.. Ohhh... I see... so you could make sure people could easily see your comments, but would have a harder time reading my examples of how RMT affects the economy, right? Draw their eyes where you want them, and away from where you don't.. Yes yes... very obvious and well-used tactic in marketing and advertising. Nice try bub.
Now, to keep this discourse honest (an ugly word to you I'm sure), allow me to re-quote my statements in an easily legible light yellow:
1. An item I wanted to get in FFXI that was going for 100k shot up to over 500k by the time I'd obtained the money to buy it. This was prior to SE cracking down on the RMT problem.. Since then, that same item is back down to around 100k
2. A Ju-jitsu Gi, another piece of gear in FFXI, cost me 450k at the time I bought it. After that, but before SE started dealing with the RMT problem seriously, the influx of RMT-generated gil in the economy caused the prices of that item - alone - to go up over 3 million. Square started cracking down on the RMT and I've since seen it back down as low as 370k but hanging around 450-500k - about the same price I paid for it 2 years ago.
3. In Lineage II, RMT is so ingrained and the farmers/botters have such a strangle-hold on the economy that when NC does do a token banning, it screws many people up and the prices are all over the place, until the RMT folks get new toons to take their place. Seen this happen a few times.
4. In a few MMOs I've played, RMT botters/farmers will monopolize rare mobs and, in some cases, go as far as attempting to kill off players competing for the spawn. This is the case even in games without PvP. It was a big problem in FFXI before SE stepped in and changed things around.
Okay, the fact that you are trying to present RMT as some legitimate business and using the word "respectable" to describe it makes it, and you, a joke from the get-go. I'm sure your cronies eat it up and cheer you on... the rest of us who actually see it for what it is aren't buying it for a moment.
Before I go any further... let's establish to some intellectual honesty (again, I know it'll be difficult for you.. but try) and set out a few basic, well-supported and easily verifiable facts here, shall we?
1. RMT and its related activities are expressely against the EULA of pretty much every MMORPG out there. You play the game, you agree to the terms and to abide by them. 2. By playing the game and pressing that button that says "I Accept" or "I Agree" or any variation thereof on the EULA screen, that you will not do anything in violation of those rules - whether you personally agree with them or not. 3. It is proven time and again that the MMORPG companies do not want RMT taking place in their game by the very fact that they ban accounts and, in some cases, post the results on their website - such as with Square and Blizzard, among others. Another clear indication that it's probably not something you should be doing. If you doubt this, allow me to point you to a few websites proving it. 4. That there are debates about it to begin with indicates that it is -at best- a questionable activity (though of course, it's not nearly that - it's an outright prohibited activity). If it were as "honky-dory" as you and others try to make it seem, it would just be "how it is" and certainly wouldn't be the topic of so much debate.
That said, it's a lovely picture you paint on the inflation problems... I especially love the bit about the "respectable RMT company blowing the whistle on the duping problem" - which I could believe if you said it was because who ever did the duping was hurting that RMT company's business. Either way, quite the Cinderella story. It would almost be plausible.. had I not played the game since day 1 of its NA PC launch and seen and experienced for myself, first-hand, the direct actions of RMT companies and their direct effects on the economy. The game has been out for what... several years now? I think it's safe to say a dupe that occured over the course of months does not account for the effects of RMT over the long term. And besides which, that dupe was addressed some time ago - yet Square is still tracking down and banning accounts of those engaging in RMT and related activities on a monthly basis. Seems your theory, as usual, doesn't hold up too well when plain common-sense and verifiable fact comes into play.
The whole "if the developers did their jobs better..." argument is over-used and hollow as well.
But again.. I understand.. you have a very personal interest in the RMT industry and so you're doing your part to spread the propaganda and make as many people as possible believe it's a perfectly acceptable practice... even while accounts of those all around them are being banned left and right for it. Oh well.. Ignorance is bliss as they say.
Fact: MMORPGs are games to be *played* within the confines and the context of the game rules that are applied equally to all players, as designed by the developers. Fact: MMORPGs - other than those specifically designed with it in mind, such as Entropia Universe - are not designed for nor intended to support RMT activity as it throws the level playing-field out of whack.
I have offered up this very simple challenge a couple times now and so far, no one has been able to meet it... Let's see how you fare, oh "Mr. Respectable RMT Company" rep... Find me documentation - official documentation - in the form of press releases, game manuals, walk-throughs.. anything officially released by a game developer that states buying money from yours or any other RMT company as an intended and encouraged part of their game. Please. I keep assuming that there are so many people who feel they're so justified in engaging in RMT that they must have *something* backing them up beyond their own self-serving theories and opinions... Yet, to date, no one's been able to produce a single printed word, a link.. nothing.
So let's see how you do. Again, I'm not holding my breath.
On the other hand, I can provide ample documentation and links to sources where the companies quite openly and, in some cases, aggressively state that RMT and related activity is strictly prohibited and deemed a bannable offense.
In closing.. Nice try. No cigar.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
1. RMT and its related activities are expressely against the EULA of pretty much every MMORPG out there. You play the game, you agree to the terms and to abide by them. 1. . Not Denying this is stated, not saying that everyone feels that EULA has to be abided by even further more that the EULA covers what the RMT market is doing.. Many feel they have rights to their time and money invested into the game. And further more many RMT companies feel that our rights are being taken advantage of. These transactions are taking place outside of game, on our website between two parties, how can the EULA cover a transaction we make outside of the scope of the EULA? How can a EULA tell Mr. Brown and Myself that we cannot initiate a deal and complete a payment for something while outside of the actual game world, we are not using the license at the time of deal being made. I do not see in there where that transaction is being questioned. And that essentially is what is taking place, a payment between two parties to help facilitate the transfer of gold from one account to another. We have not licensed or purchased a license from any game companies to do our third party transactions, therefore there is no real EULA that covers the aspect of the customers purchase. So bigger question is why can these companies ban literally hundreds of thousands of dollars in accounts if we are only trading gold from one character to another? The gold was traded with in the mechanics of the game, as specified to be allowed in the game. There was no exchange of real dollars in the game, there was no discussion in the game to suggest this is nothing more than moving gold from one player to another. Really there is no transfer of copyright because the game company never lost it,
2. By playing the game and pressing that button that says "I Accept" or "I Agree" or any variation thereof on the EULA screen, that you will not do anything in violation of those rules - whether you personally agree with them or not. 1. Correct and for accepting this the game companies have the right to ban/ suspend anyones account if they are found to be taking place in behavior that is not accepted.
3. It is proven time and again that the MMORPG companies do not want RMT taking place in their game by the very fact that they ban accounts and, in some cases, post the results on their website - such as with Square and Blizzard, among others. Another clear indication that it's probably not something you should be doing. If you doubt this, allow me to point you to a few websites proving it. 1. Again you are correct on this however you look at SOE Exchange, they took a step in this direction because they do not want this type of activity taking place? Second Life, huge game pressing the boundaries of what can be done with virtual worlds. The transaction of Linden $ to Real currency is highly accepted (I know not an MMORPG). Here again I have to of course cover our side of the fence and say that consumer demand drives this market, and not some small % either. 4. That there are debates about it to begin with indicates that it is -at best- a questionable activity (though of course, it's not nearly that - it's an outright prohibited activity). If it were as "honky-dory" as you and others try to make it seem, it would just be "how it is" and certainly wouldn't be the topic of so much debate.
1. I find this to be a very hot topic due to the nature of the business, this market is covering grounds unheard of and unimaginable to people only 7 years ago. A virtual commodities market based around video games taking place in virtual worlds. In my opinion this existence between RMT and game developer is only paving the way to unlimited possibilities. As it has been quoted in a World Of Warcraft article that WoW is the new golf, I see this to be very true. So with this emergence of basically a new generation of gamer that spans multiple generations, is it fair to enforce one type of game play on these MMOs and say this is how the game must be played or else I do not see that to be fair play. So with this now being the cornucopia of the MMO market we all have to think on a wider scale of who the end customer is. Of course gamers that have been around for a long time have a set of Morals they feel very strongly about. But as with any new market things change and seeing as how video games as a whole are expanding at an infectious rate RMT is part of the natural progression. I fell that for the MMO market to continue to grow, RMT as will new sectors will develop and form as demand deems necessary.
That said, it's a lovely picture you paint on the inflation problems... I especially love the bit about the "respectable RMT company blowing the whistle on the duping problem" - which I could believe if you said it was because who ever did the duping was hurting that RMT company's business. Either way, quite the Cinderella story. It would almost be plausible.. had I not played the game since day 1 of its NA PC launch and seen and experienced for myself, first-hand, the direct actions of RMT companies and their direct effects on the economy. The game has been out for what... several years now? I think it's safe to say a dupe that occured over the course of months does not account for the effects of RMT over the long term. And besides which, that dupe was addressed some time ago - yet Square is still tracking down and banning accounts of those engaging in RMT and related activities on a monthly basis. Seems your theory, as usual, doesn't hold up too well when plain common-sense and verifiable fact comes into play. Im not going to try and discuss this issue with you, it would be argumentative and pointless, you have your thoughts on how it works. I know how it works. And to correct you on "still tracking down", SE just banned all those accounts after they discovered yet another dupe that was running in game for well near 3 months. All accounts got banned that where involved, we never lost one.. That says something!
The whole "if the developers did their jobs better..." argument is over-used and hollow as well. Well if they would have the dupe would not have lasted over 1 year and then show up again only a few short weeks later!
But again.. I understand.. you have a very personal interest in the RMT industry and so you're doing your part to spread the propaganda and make as many people as possible believe it's a perfectly acceptable practice... even while accounts of those all around them are being banned left and right for it. Oh well.. Ignorance is bliss as they say. I do not need to spread propaganda, people enjoy our services and they will continue to.
Fact: MMORPGs are games to be *played* within the confines and the context of the game rules that are applied equally to all players, as designed by the developers. Fact: MMORPGs - other than those specifically designed with it in mind, such as Entropia Universe - are not designed for nor intended to support RMT activity as it throws the level playing-field out of whack. Fact: If you enjoy playing an MMO and you just do not have the time to keep up with your friends in game, earn enough gold to buy the sword you want or invest in some tradeskilling a company like Mogs can provide these services for you to help you enjoy your gaming experience the way you would like to. After all you pay the same amount as the guy playing 20 hours a day and enjoying himself the way he likes.
I have offered up this very simple challenge a couple times now and so far, no one has been able to meet it... Let's see how you fare, oh "Mr. Respectable RMT Company" rep... Find me documentation - official documentation - in the form of press releases, game manuals, walk-throughs.. anything officially released by a game developer that states buying money from yours or any other RMT company as an intended and encouraged part of their game. Please. I keep assuming that there are so many people who feel they're so justified in engaging in RMT that they must have *something* backing them up beyond their own self-serving theories and opinions... Yet, to date, no one's been able to produce a single printed word, a link.. nothing. Cant provide you with manuals, documents or any of your other requests, however I can provide some feedback direct from our customers
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Very quick, professional service! This should more than compensate for the chincy copper and silver that mobs drop!
Let alone the outrageous training prices on WoW!
Ect ect ect, I have thousands more just like this..
So let's see how you do. Again, I'm not holding my breath.
There is only one word for this kind of business and those that use it: corruption.
Out of innocent fun appears the possibility to earn money, so the cockroaches don´t need long to take the stage. And worst is, in lazy decadence people actually feed them, thus allowing the parasites to grow and get cocky (best example: this thread) AND totally corrupting everything RPGs used to stand for. RolePlayingGames, yeah, or BuyYourToonAndBeUberInaDay. BYTABUID, so to say.
But hell, that´s what you get when people are indoctrinated to believe that games are about competition AND that if you paid for it, it ain´t cheating. Truth is, some games aren´t all about competition and it IS cheating even if you paid for it.
I have nothing but pity and contempt for people who buy toons/items/gold. I hope they get all banned from everywhere and forever. As for those that make a living out of it, I hope you people manage to get a REAL JOB and I hope your bosses rot in jail. Wishful thinking, but that´s me...
1. RMT and its related activities are expressely against the EULA of pretty much every MMORPG out there. You play the game, you agree to the terms and to abide by them. 1. . Not Denying this is stated, not saying that everyone feels that EULA has to be abided by even further more that the EULA covers what the RMT market is doing.. Many feel they have rights to their time and money invested into the game. And further more many RMT companies feel that our rights are being taken advantage of. These transactions are taking place outside of game, on our website between two parties, how can the EULA cover a transaction we make outside of the scope of the EULA? How can a EULA tell Mr. Brown and Myself that we cannot initiate a deal and complete a payment for something while outside of the actual game world, we are not using the license at the time of deal being made. I do not see in there where that transaction is being questioned. And that essentially is what is taking place, a payment between two parties to help facilitate the transfer of gold from one account to another. We have not licensed or purchased a license from any game companies to do our third party transactions, therefore there is no real EULA that covers the aspect of the customers purchase. So bigger question is why can these companies ban literally hundreds of thousands of dollars in accounts if we are only trading gold from one character to another? The gold was traded with in the mechanics of the game, as specified to be allowed in the game. There was no exchange of real dollars in the game, there was no discussion in the game to suggest this is nothing more than moving gold from one player to another. Really there is no transfer of copyright because the game company never lost it, Does the term "Intellectual Property" mean anything to you? Also known, in short, as "IP"? The items, money, accounts you are selling are the Intellectual Property of their respective creators/developers and not yours to sell outside of the game. The game developers absolutely have the right to say what can or can't be done with their IP - up to how and where and under what conditions it is exchanged. You are making money on the exchange of intangible items with no inherent real-world value that aren't yours to begin with. It certainly is the right of no-one but the developers'/IP owner to set such a real-world value if they decided to. This isn't a simple "trading money between friends". 2. By playing the game and pressing that button that says "I Accept" or "I Agree" or any variation thereof on the EULA screen, that you will not do anything in violation of those rules - whether you personally agree with them or not. 1. Correct and for accepting this the game companies have the right to ban/ suspend anyones account if they are found to be taking place in behavior that is not accepted. Such as RMT and its related activities... which is why they ban accounts for specifically that reason. Oh, oops... forgot about that didn't you. 3. It is proven time and again that the MMORPG companies do not want RMT taking place in their game by the very fact that they ban accounts and, in some cases, post the results on their website - such as with Square and Blizzard, among others. Another clear indication that it's probably not something you should be doing. If you doubt this, allow me to point you to a few websites proving it. 1. Again you are correct on this however you look at SOE Exchange, they took a step in this direction because they do not want this type of activity taking place? Second Life, huge game pressing the boundaries of what can be done with virtual worlds. The transaction of Linden $ to Real currency is highly accepted (I know not an MMORPG). Here again I have to of course cover our side of the fence and say that consumer demand drives this market, and not some small % either. Sony creating the SE servers is right in character for them, and means nothing as they are, to many, a pariah in the MMO community. Station Exchange only proves, once again, to those of us who already know and/or have experienced it first-hand, that SOE will do whatever it can to make an extra buck - up to and including screwing over an entire game's population of long-time customers in hopes of increasing their bottom line. Or, in this case, gleefully embracing something the vast majority of the industry recognizes as a problem and is vehemently against and actively fighting. It doesn't surprise me at all that they were the first to do it and, to date, the only one to do it. Doing things that directly hurt their own customers seems to be smooth terrain for them. Add to this that SOE also created Station Exchange under the false pretense of wanting to "protect their players" from the ill effects often accompanying RMT (scams, theft, etc), yet, they did nothing to stop the RMT activity on any of their non-SE servers, and their true intentions shine clear. They're not out to protect anyone, they just want their share of the pie. The creed is greed for SOE and that's the only reason why they've "accepted" RMT... It's more important to them to get their share than it is to deal with the problem itself. Using SOE as your example of a company deeming RMT to be "okay" is not going to get you many supporters - especially in these forums. So, by all means, please keep doing so. 4. That there are debates about it to begin with indicates that it is -at best- a questionable activity (though of course, it's not nearly that - it's an outright prohibited activity). If it were as "honky-dory" as you and others try to make it seem, it would just be "how it is" and certainly wouldn't be the topic of so much debate. 1. I find this to be a very hot topic due to the nature of the business, this market is covering grounds unheard of and unimaginable to people only 7 years ago. A virtual commodities market based around video games taking place in virtual worlds. In my opinion this existence between RMT and game developer is only paving the way to unlimited possibilities. As it has been quoted in a World Of Warcraft article that WoW is the new golf, I see this to be very true. So with this emergence of basically a new generation of gamer that spans multiple generations, is it fair to enforce one type of game play on these MMOs and say this is how the game must be played or else I do not see that to be fair play. That was a ridiculous question, but I'll bite. Yes, mogscom, it is very fair to enforce rules upon players of a game whose systems, dynamics and challenges are designed around those rules and applied to all players equally. It creates an unbiased framework for each person to play within and keeps everyone on equal ground. It's kinda the point of having rules in the first place. It is especially fair when, by action of accepting the EULA before playing, each player is agreeing to play and abide by those rules.
Again, the introduction of RMT allows players to circumvent many of those rules/challenges and throws the fairness out of whack in a way that is uncontrollable by the developer themself - there's nothing they can do in-game to balance what person A can afford to buy versus person B. This is especially true in open PvP games where gear can often be the deciding factor. It can be argued that it's a problem with gear-centric games.. However, in the absence of RMT it's still a level playing field as all players face the same challenges in acquiring their gear.
So with this now being the cornucopia of the MMO market we all have to think on a wider scale of who the end customer is. Of course gamers that have been around for a long time have a set of Morals they feel very strongly about. But as with any new market things change and seeing as how video games as a whole are expanding at an infectious rate RMT is part of the natural progression. I fell that for the MMO market to continue to grow, RMT as will new sectors will develop and form as demand deems necessary. Are you for real? A "cornucopia"? RMT is a festering wart on the MMORPG community seeded by parasites, such as yourself, who try to take what is supposed to be a fun, challenging entertaining pastime and turn it into a money-pit. RMT is constantly and persistantly tracked down and eliminated. What are you talking about, "cornucopia"? And yes, us old gamers who've been around a while do have a moral code - it's called playing by and following the rules of the game. Once again, RMT does not appear anywhere in any rulesets I've ever seen for any MMO I've ever played. I'm sure to you playing by the rules is an ugly and undesirable idea. But, it just so happens to apply to many areas of life - online games included. 'least I have never heard of anyone being banned from a game for actively not engaging in RMT.
That said, it's a lovely picture you paint on the inflation problems... I especially love the bit about the "respectable RMT company blowing the whistle on the duping problem" - which I could believe if you said it was because who ever did the duping was hurting that RMT company's business. Either way, quite the Cinderella story. It would almost be plausible.. had I not played the game since day 1 of its NA PC launch and seen and experienced for myself, first-hand, the direct actions of RMT companies and their direct effects on the economy. The game has been out for what... several years now? I think it's safe to say a dupe that occured over the course of months does not account for the effects of RMT over the long term. And besides which, that dupe was addressed some time ago - yet Square is still tracking down and banning accounts of those engaging in RMT and related activities on a monthly basis. Seems your theory, as usual, doesn't hold up too well when plain common-sense and verifiable fact comes into play. Im not going to try and discuss this issue with you, it would be argumentative and pointless, you have your thoughts on how it works. I know how it works. And to correct you on "still tracking down", SE just banned all those accounts after they discovered yet another dupe that was running in game for well near 3 months. All accounts got banned that where involved, we never lost one.. That says something!And... the time before that? And the time before that? How about 3 months ago? 4? I sure as heck know I've seen those RMT banning reports alot more often than just twice. Are you going to contend that those are all dealing with duping? I think not. How about in WoW where Blizzard posts the same information on their banning efforts? Let me guess... all duping, too, right? It has nothing to do with the fact that, oh I don't know, they don't want RMT happening in their games in any form? Naww... of course not. Certainly you would have the intellectual honesty and integrity to come out and acknowledge it if they did, right? The whole "if the developers did their jobs better..." argument is over-used and hollow as well. Well if they would have the dupe would not have lasted over 1 year and then show up again only a few short weeks later! Well, maybe you should leave the RMT business and start showing these companies how to develop a game with code so perfect that no one could ever find a hole or exploit.In case you didn't know, software development is not that cut-and-dry nor that simple. You find a problem in code and you don't just go in and fix one line and, voila, problem's gone. You have to find the exact part of the code causing the problem - which is rarely trivial. You then have to determine what other parts of the software are reliant on that portion of the code and how. You have to test and address any negative impact changing that part of the code will have on those other parts. You have to find ways to make sure that doesn't happen. You have to test, test, test, test, test until you're 110% certain you've successfully corrected the problem. And on and on... It's a troublesome enough situation in a simple desktop application (and yes I have worked on and with developers in just such situations). In a MMORPG which is many, many, many times more complex, the difficulties are compounded. That is why it takes so long to eliminate some problems - not because the developers simply don't know what they're doing.And, can you please provide me the proof that the dupe was in effect for a year? I kinda doubt it because in the time I've played it, the dupe reared its ugly head in conjunction with an absurd spike in prices. Prior to that it was a much more steady, but noticeable increase, thanks to RMT botters/farmers screwing with everything. But again.. I understand.. you have a very personal interest in the RMT industry and so you're doing your part to spread the propaganda and make as many people as possible believe it's a perfectly acceptable practice... even while accounts of those all around them are being banned left and right for it. Oh well.. Ignorance is bliss as they say. I do not need to spread propaganda, people enjoy our services and they will continue to. Yes, so long as you continue to spread your "theories" on why RMT is okay and continue to put a happy face on it so they feel nice and warm and fuzzy about it, of course they will. Fact: MMORPGs are games to be *played* within the confines and the context of the game rules that are applied equally to all players, as designed by the developers. Fact: MMORPGs - other than those specifically designed with it in mind, such as Entropia Universe - are not designed for nor intended to support RMT activity as it throws the level playing-field out of whack. Fact: If you enjoy playing an MMO and you just do not have the time to keep up with your friends in game, earn enough gold to buy the sword you want or invest in some tradeskilling a company like Mogs can provide these services for you to help you enjoy your gaming experience the way you would like to. After all you pay the same amount as the guy playing 20 hours a day and enjoying himself the way he likes.Wrong. That is a weak, shallow and completely self-centered mentality. Having less time than others does not exempt you from the same rules that they have to follow. I realize this is one of the most popular arguments the pro-RMT folks will give.. It doesn't make it right.I live 30 minutes from work. My friend/coworker lives 10 minutes from work. We both have to be there 8AM. I live farther away so I have to leave earlier to get there on time. Is it unfair that he can leave 20 minutes later than me and still get there on time? I mean, that's 20 extra minutes of my personal time that I have to use driving to work every morning that I could be using doing something else, and my time is very valuable to me. Would that justify me deciding I don't have to show up on time? Of course not. My friend lives closer than I do and so it makes perfect sense that he could get there faster than me and so could leave later than I do. That's life. And if I did feel it was unfair and that I should be exempt from having to show up on time, is that going to make a lick of difference to my employer when they decide to write me up or fire me for it? Of course not. Where I live or how long it takes me to get to work is not their problem, nor is it reason to give exemptions, no matter how strongly I feel about it. The same goes for RMT. Someone finding that the game rules don't work well for them doesn't exempt them from playing within them like everyone else. The game rules apply to everyone equally. The challenges and the means to overcome those challenges apply equally to everyone within the context of the game. That's the way it is. That's the way it's supposed to be - for everyone paying their monthly subscription. That Tim has more time to play and so can progress more quickly than Johnny is not "unfair". It's called real life. It does not entitle Johnny to take shortcuts to keep up. It simply means it'll take Johnny longer, in real-world time, to get there. There is absolutely nothing wrong with this, except if Johnny somehow feels that he should be able to achieve the same goals in less time than Tim. But that's a case of not liking the rules. It doesn't exempt Johnny from them. If it takes longer than Johnny for him to reach where Tim is, and he absolutely can't handle it, then he's probably playing the wrong game and should find something that better suits his time. A dislike for how the game progresses when playing by the rules is not a free-pass to play outside them... However much you think they don't apply to you, they still do.
I have offered up this very simple challenge a couple times now and so far, no one has been able to meet it... Let's see how you fare, oh "Mr. Respectable RMT Company" rep... Find me documentation - official documentation - in the form of press releases, game manuals, walk-throughs.. anything officially released by a game developer that states buying money from yours or any other RMT company as an intended and encouraged part of their game. Please. I keep assuming that there are so many people who feel they're so justified in engaging in RMT that they must have *something* backing them up beyond their own self-serving theories and opinions... Yet, to date, no one's been able to produce a single printed word, a link.. nothing. Cant provide you with manuals, documents or any of your other requests, however I can provide some feedback direct from our customers
lol.. And....? Yes, there are thousands of people who engage in RMT for a variety of reasons.. none of them justified. You just happen to get a share of those people. I suppose you feel this somehow makes your practice more legitimate.. but it means nothing. RMT is still prohibited and it's still a bannable offense. How big your fan club is has no impact on that.
And I present that challenge to people full knowing they could never provide the black-and-white proof that what they're doing is as legit as they claim it to be - because no such documentation exists. Which means, you and your like have no leg to stand on, again, except your home-spun, self-serving theories and rationalizations.. all of which mean squat.
And again, it didn't escape my attention that you managed to slip some more self-promotion into the post.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
The morale of the story is, that you should derive your since of accomplishment or joy from the work you put into achieving something. If you constantly judge it or yourself against others you will never be satisfied with the results.
Not sure if this has been pointed out or not, but I couldn't see it anywhere, but that qoute is the ultimate in contradiction, and basically lost the arguement for our gold-selling friend. It seriously buried him in a way that not even his opponent could match.
He clearly states (marked in red) that your accomplishment or joy should come from the work you have put into acheiving something, however he is selling the exact opposite, meaning he doesn't beleive in what his business does. 100% shot down Mr. Kipe because at this point it became clear that you dont actually beleive in the morals and ethics of gold selling you were defending, but were more intrested in the fast cash from people who have mindsets entirely opposite to what you beleive.
Next tome you go to war, it would be a good idea to make sure your not handing out ammunition to the enemy.
I guess it's a pretty classic question. The hardest of hardcore gamers, who play 12+ hours a day, are typically either young and in school or unemployed. Or have that rare golden job where your employers don't care if you're playing MMOs at work.
So I think then the question arises to many people: Is time a more valuable commodity than money? If I work 52 hours a week, Why should some 14 year old on summer vacation have a better gaming experience than me? He may have more time, but I have more money, shouldn't I be able to balance it out?
I think the answer depends alot on your view of the game. I view it as simply a place to have fun. But a lot of people seem to have the attitude that they have to 'win'.
It also has some larger implications in servers set up for European and possibly asian nations. The income in Germany versus Bulgaria is hugely different.
As to the lawsuit, I found it patentedly ludicrous. The player's efforts in getting the sword made it his, rather than the company who put the time and effort into not only creating the sword to begin with, but creating the methods to get it? Does that mean that since I put the time and effort into finding and buying a MS operating system, it belongs to me and I can ignore it's EULA?
Sadly my last two posts where lost along with others, or else this debate would be over. If only I could remember what I typed.
I dont see how posting comments from people that have used your services says anything in favor of RMT. Sure, it shows that your company doesnt rip people off, and that some people think your better then other RMT companies. I'm sure if I talked to 10 crackheads 9 out of 10 would recommend thier dealer to, it still isnt right.
You try to use some companies move to get thier peace of the RMT market as a reason, but games/servers that use RMT arnt where we have the problem with your services. It is the games and servers that where not designed for it that we have the problem with.
Plain and simple selling game currency for real money is against the rules in most games, and should not be allowed in those games. If they make games that allow RMT feel free to do business in those games. I have no problem with you or your company, only it's effects on games I enjoy playing.
In a post I believe was lost I said something along the lines of this. I dont disagree that a constant influx of new currency will cause inflation, but when you've played a game for 2 years and the inflation was slow and steady, and suddenly within months of RMT becoming mainstream prices jump 4 times as much as they did in the previous 2 years, then you can figure out what's going on without being nearly as intelligent as I am.
I'm sure dupe bugs and other such dishonest things added to it, but there where times of inflation with no known dupes going on. Even if your comnpany has never from infancy to now used such means of gaining gold, others of your ilk have. I'm sure there are companies such as yours that attempt to stay as legitimate as a company that breaks the rules can be. But there are plenty of you that do not.
I have seen this for a very long time starting with the first sales of uo items on ebay. I said right then and there the company is missing out on lotza money by not setting up a secure trade. well took them a few years to get the program set up but they did finnaly fall in line. You can't stop it so join it and you make the money you being the game company instead of ebay.
As far as ingame economies being ruined by this I just dont see it. Anyone who buys gold is still gonna look ingame for the best deals.Prices ingame are determined by supply and demand. I sold gold for a few years on several different games before they had game companies selling it. Most of my gold buyers were buying gold to buy crafting supplies. Very rarely did I hear any of them tell me they were buying the gold for a item. In uo lots of them bought gold for houses if you want to consider that a item then so be it.
I feel like the game companies need to take charge of thier own items and help with securing trades.
I also heard the irs is also looking at this ingame property having real world value and are working towards taxing us on it. I see this as we have no one to blame but ourselves.
Could it be that someday only the very wealthy can even play these games? well the p2p games anyway. The F2p games are really turning alot of heads. I recently tried one of the newer ones out and was like WOW there are alot of people in this game. Arewe going to see a major market change and they all go F2p? The companies doing this must be making money off selling items or they would not be making so many of them. Just try Rappelz I think you will be shocked at how many players are there,and how many you see that have items that have been purchased with the ole USD from there item mall.
played M59,UO,lineage,EQ,Daoc,Entropia,SWG,Horizons,Lineage2.EQ2,Vangaurd,Irth online, DarkFall,Star Trek and many others that did not make the cut or i just plain forgetting about.
Originally posted by SabbathSMC I have seen this for a very long time starting with the first sales of uo items on ebay. I said right then and there the company is missing out on lotza money by not setting up a secure trade. well took them a few years to get the program set up but they did finnaly fall in line. You can't stop it so join it and you make the money you being the game company instead of ebay. As far as ingame economies being ruined by this I just dont see it. Anyone who buys gold is still gonna look ingame for the best deals.Prices ingame are determined by supply and demand. I sold gold for a few years on several different games before they had game companies selling it. Most of my gold buyers were buying gold to buy crafting supplies. Very rarely did I hear any of them tell me they were buying the gold for a item. In uo lots of them bought gold for houses if you want to consider that a item then so be it. I feel like the game companies need to take charge of thier own items and help with securing trades. I also heard the irs is also looking at this ingame property having real world value and are working towards taxing us on it. I see this as we have no one to blame but ourselves. Could it be that someday only the very wealthy can even play these games? well the p2p games anyway. The F2p games are really turning alot of heads. I recently tried one of the newer ones out and was like WOW there are alot of people in this game. Arewe going to see a major market change and they all go F2p? The companies doing this must be making money off selling items or they would not be making so many of them. Just try Rappelz I think you will be shocked at how many players are there,and how many you see that have items that have been purchased with the ole USD from there item mall.
The day RMT becomes accepted and embraced, industry-wide as a "standard" is the day I stop playing MMORPGs completely and find another multiplayer genre to play in where RMT has no reach. FPS and RTS are about the only ones I can think of off the top of my head.
I'm glad the gov't is going to start taxing them. Good. Serves 'em right. Those like myself who actually *play* the game won't be affected. Let the lazy idiots who want everything "now" and choose to buy their way through the games because - heaven forbid - they would otherwise actually be "forced" to experience the game the way it was intended to be played, and be - gasp - challenged enjoy reaping the fruits of what they've sown. Couldn't leave well enough alone and insist on bringing real life values into a fantasy game... well, the Government is gonna help you along. Good job, y'all. Hope you enjoy paying your real taxes on fictitious items. Myself and others like me will be playing the game the way it was designed. I hope it's a steep tax, too. Serves 'em right for being lazy, challenge-inept imbeciles in the first place.
Yes, I mean every word of that as harshly as it's come across.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Originally posted by WSIMike The day RMT becomes accepted and embraced, industry-wide as a "standard" is the day I stop playing MMORPGs completely and find another multiplayer genre to play in where RMT has no reach. FPS and RTS are about the only ones I can think of off the top of my head.
I'm glad the gov't is going to start taxing them. Good. Serves 'em right. Those like myself who actually *play* the game won't be affected. Let the lazy idiots who want everything "now" and choose to buy their way through the games because - heaven forbid - they would otherwise actually be "forced" to experience the game the way it was intended to be played, and be - gasp - challenged enjoy reaping the fruits of what they've sown. Couldn't leave well enough alone and insist on bringing real life values into a fantasy game... well, the Government is gonna help you along. Good job, y'all. Hope you enjoy paying your real taxes on fictitious items. Myself and others like me will be playing the game the way it was designed. I hope it's a steep tax, too. Serves 'em right for being lazy, challenge-inept imbeciles in the first place.
Yes, I mean every word of that as harshly as it's come across.
Perhaps you are not getting the entire point.... If in game items or currency is taxes then it will be taxed for everyone, not just those guys that buy it from the RMT shops. Either the items have currency or they dont according to the Goverment!
Originally posted by HeRog Originally posted by WSIMike The day RMT becomes accepted and embraced, industry-wide as a "standard" is the day I stop playing MMORPGs completely and find another multiplayer genre to play in where RMT has no reach. FPS and RTS are about the only ones I can think of off the top of my head.
I'm glad the gov't is going to start taxing them. Good. Serves 'em right. Those like myself who actually *play* the game won't be affected. Let the lazy idiots who want everything "now" and choose to buy their way through the games because - heaven forbid - they would otherwise actually be "forced" to experience the game the way it was intended to be played, and be - gasp - challenged enjoy reaping the fruits of what they've sown. Couldn't leave well enough alone and insist on bringing real life values into a fantasy game... well, the Government is gonna help you along. Good job, y'all. Hope you enjoy paying your real taxes on fictitious items. Myself and others like me will be playing the game the way it was designed. I hope it's a steep tax, too. Serves 'em right for being lazy, challenge-inept imbeciles in the first place.
Yes, I mean every word of that as harshly as it's come across.
Perhaps you are not getting the entire point.... If in game items or currency is taxes then it will be taxed for everyone, not just those guys that buy it from the RMT shops. Either the items have currency or they dont according to the Goverment!
Naw... They can only tax what people spend in real-world money; eg. RMT.
You can't place a real-world tax on fictitious currency in a fake economy. Things bought or otherwise acquired entirely in-game for gold, or silver, or adena, or gil, or isk, or information or any other made-up form of currency in an online game cannot have a real-world tax applied to them.
I'm pretty certain this is only going to affect RMT purchases that happen outside the game and involve the exchange of real-world money. To which I still say.. Good.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Originally posted by WSIMike The day RMT becomes accepted and embraced, industry-wide as a "standard" is the day I stop playing MMORPGs completely and find another multiplayer genre to play in where RMT has no reach. FPS and RTS are about the only ones I can think of off the top of my head.
I'm glad the gov't is going to start taxing them. Good. Serves 'em right. Those like myself who actually *play* the game won't be affected. Let the lazy idiots who want everything "now" and choose to buy their way through the games because - heaven forbid - they would otherwise actually be "forced" to experience the game the way it was intended to be played, and be - gasp - challenged enjoy reaping the fruits of what they've sown. Couldn't leave well enough alone and insist on bringing real life values into a fantasy game... well, the Government is gonna help you along. Good job, y'all. Hope you enjoy paying your real taxes on fictitious items. Myself and others like me will be playing the game the way it was designed. I hope it's a steep tax, too. Serves 'em right for being lazy, challenge-inept imbeciles in the first place.
Yes, I mean every word of that as harshly as it's come across.
Perhaps you are not getting the entire point.... If in game items or currency is taxes then it will be taxed for everyone, not just those guys that buy it from the RMT shops. Either the items have currency or they dont according to the Goverment!
Naw... They can only tax what people spend in real-world money; eg. RMT.
You can't place a real-world tax on fictitious currency in a fake economy. Things bought or otherwise acquired entirely in-game for gold, or silver, or adena, or gil, or isk, or information or any other made-up form of currency in an online game cannot have a real-world tax applied to them.
I'm pretty certain this is only going to affect RMT purchases that happen outside the game and involve the exchange of real-world money. To which I still say.. Good.
Nope... It works like this...
RMT companies already pay taxes on the selling of currency. What the federal goverment is talking about doing is assigning a real world value to in game currency or items and then charging a tax on anyone who trades them in game or buys them in game. As the Federal Goverment sees it, if they have a real world value and are traded on a regular basis then they should be taxed. That is the danger in what they are discussing. So be prepared to pay a tax on every item you buy and sell in game.
Originally posted by HeRog Originally posted by WSIMike Originally posted by HeRog Originally posted by WSIMike The day RMT becomes accepted and embraced, industry-wide as a "standard" is the day I stop playing MMORPGs completely and find another multiplayer genre to play in where RMT has no reach. FPS and RTS are about the only ones I can think of off the top of my head.
I'm glad the gov't is going to start taxing them. Good. Serves 'em right. Those like myself who actually *play* the game won't be affected. Let the lazy idiots who want everything "now" and choose to buy their way through the games because - heaven forbid - they would otherwise actually be "forced" to experience the game the way it was intended to be played, and be - gasp - challenged enjoy reaping the fruits of what they've sown. Couldn't leave well enough alone and insist on bringing real life values into a fantasy game... well, the Government is gonna help you along. Good job, y'all. Hope you enjoy paying your real taxes on fictitious items. Myself and others like me will be playing the game the way it was designed. I hope it's a steep tax, too. Serves 'em right for being lazy, challenge-inept imbeciles in the first place.
Yes, I mean every word of that as harshly as it's come across.
Perhaps you are not getting the entire point.... If in game items or currency is taxes then it will be taxed for everyone, not just those guys that buy it from the RMT shops. Either the items have currency or they dont according to the Goverment!
Naw... They can only tax what people spend in real-world money; eg. RMT.
You can't place a real-world tax on fictitious currency in a fake economy. Things bought or otherwise acquired entirely in-game for gold, or silver, or adena, or gil, or isk, or information or any other made-up form of currency in an online game cannot have a real-world tax applied to them.
I'm pretty certain this is only going to affect RMT purchases that happen outside the game and involve the exchange of real-world money. To which I still say.. Good.
Nope... It works like this...
RMT companies already pay taxes on the selling of currency. What the federal goverment is talking about doing is assigning a real world value to in game currency or items and then charging a tax on anyone who trades them in game or buys them in game. As the Federal Goverment sees it, if they have a real world value and are traded on a regular basis then they should be taxed. That is the danger in what they are discussing. So be prepared to pay a tax on every item you buy and sell in game.
Edit:
Originally, this post was a concession that I'd discovered that there are plans to impose taxes on in-game/virtual items and such... Now it's merely a concession that there is certainly a prevalent rumor that it's so...
After posting this message originally this morning, I went to work and got to talking with a co-worker about it. His initial response, "Oh, that's crap..." And we didn't really talk much more about it. I went back to my desk and started the day.. about 10 minutes later, he says "Hey Mike... come here...". On his screen was the following link:
Between that and several other articles he went on to read after that (he was as appalled by the idea as me, and he don't even play MMOs!) the overwhelming concensus is that:
A: It's a rumor. There is no official, substantiated word that the government has any intention of placing real taxes on virtual assets with no real world value, much less that they're in the process of implementing it. B: There are currently no laws, regulations, etc. to impose on virtual economies where virtual items/money are exchanged for other virtual items/money. There is no tangible real-world benefit to it. It's all vapor. That's not to say that, at some point down the road, it *couldn't* happen.. it's just not likely to happen for a goooooood long time. And, even then, like so much else on the Internet, it's impossible to track. Who exactly would police it? In all, tens of Millions of people play and exchange items and virtual money from all around the world, every minute of everyday. Who's going to set and enforce the laws on that scale?
The only place I can see this happening is in something like Second Life or Entropia Universe where real world currency is directly converted into in-game cash and, most importantly, *back* again into real world cash. Similarly, RMT can be taxed as, again, real world money is coming into play on both ends of the transaction... since in those cases, it's really not much different from buying something from Amazon.com, etc. Again, it's something like poetic justice to me. Wanna use real money to play a fantasy game, 'cause you're too lazy to play within the intended game rules? Fine... pay real world taxes, too. Enjoy lying in the bed you've made. The rest of us legitimate players will be playing the game as designed, earning our gear/assets as intended and paying no more than our monthly subscription.
So.. in the end, it's not nearly so doom and gloom as I thought it would be. I don't imagine it's going to be a problem for a very very long time - if ever.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
I really don't think it will ever come to this. But they are looking at it. The problem is there is so much money being transfered they want a piece of the pie. It's like being a drug dealer. Those guys get lots and lots of cash. Unless that money is run threw a bank they can't tax it. The same thing is happening here. Lots of cash is exchanging hands and never reaching the bank. So they go to the source which is the game and start there. What a huge mess it would be if they really did accomplish this.
played M59,UO,lineage,EQ,Daoc,Entropia,SWG,Horizons,Lineage2.EQ2,Vangaurd,Irth online, DarkFall,Star Trek and many others that did not make the cut or i just plain forgetting about.
Originally posted by WSIMike The day RMT becomes accepted and embraced, industry-wide as a "standard" is the day I stop playing MMORPGs completely and find another multiplayer genre to play in where RMT has no reach. FPS and RTS are about the only ones I can think of off the top of my head.
I'm glad the gov't is going to start taxing them. Good. Serves 'em right. Those like myself who actually *play* the game won't be affected. Let the lazy idiots who want everything "now" and choose to buy their way through the games because - heaven forbid - they would otherwise actually be "forced" to experience the game the way it was intended to be played, and be - gasp - challenged enjoy reaping the fruits of what they've sown. Couldn't leave well enough alone and insist on bringing real life values into a fantasy game... well, the Government is gonna help you along. Good job, y'all. Hope you enjoy paying your real taxes on fictitious items. Myself and others like me will be playing the game the way it was designed. I hope it's a steep tax, too. Serves 'em right for being lazy, challenge-inept imbeciles in the first place.
Yes, I mean every word of that as harshly as it's come across.
Perhaps you are not getting the entire point.... If in game items or currency is taxes then it will be taxed for everyone, not just those guys that buy it from the RMT shops. Either the items have currency or they dont according to the Goverment!
Dude, get your head out, they can only tax you for Real life transactions. And I hope they tax the bejesus out of them.
If you want a new idea, go read an old book.
In order to be insulted, I must first value your opinion.
Originally posted by Hatefull Originally posted by HeRog Originally posted by WSIMike The day RMT becomes accepted and embraced, industry-wide as a "standard" is the day I stop playing MMORPGs completely and find another multiplayer genre to play in where RMT has no reach. FPS and RTS are about the only ones I can think of off the top of my head.
I'm glad the gov't is going to start taxing them. Good. Serves 'em right. Those like myself who actually *play* the game won't be affected. Let the lazy idiots who want everything "now" and choose to buy their way through the games because - heaven forbid - they would otherwise actually be "forced" to experience the game the way it was intended to be played, and be - gasp - challenged enjoy reaping the fruits of what they've sown. Couldn't leave well enough alone and insist on bringing real life values into a fantasy game... well, the Government is gonna help you along. Good job, y'all. Hope you enjoy paying your real taxes on fictitious items. Myself and others like me will be playing the game the way it was designed. I hope it's a steep tax, too. Serves 'em right for being lazy, challenge-inept imbeciles in the first place.
Yes, I mean every word of that as harshly as it's come across.
Perhaps you are not getting the entire point.... If in game items or currency is taxes then it will be taxed for everyone, not just those guys that buy it from the RMT shops. Either the items have currency or they dont according to the Goverment!
Dude, get your head out, they can only tax you for Real life transactions. And I hope they tax the bejesus out of them. Indeed. They should call it the "Stupid & Lazy Tax" - and define it as "A tax imposed on those too inept, or just too lazy to play a MMORPG within the parameters it was designed and promoted to be played; whom instead insist on supporting a prohibited behavior by buying their way through a fantasy game, purchasing fictitious items and currency with real world money. Further, it is aimed at those whom, despite mountains of proof to the contrary readily available for anyone capable of doing a simple Google search, continue to insist that it is a justified and perfectly acceptable means of playing a game. For their inability to adhere to the same rules as everyone else, as well as their blatant ignorance of the facts that clearly show RMT as a prohibited activity, not to mention how they annoy everyone else with their cries of injustice and lack of "fairness" in being "forced" to play a game the way it was designed (oh, the horror), we are imposing this tax. Maybe that'll get it through to them and shut them up once and for all."
For those who *still* want to debate it.. I give you Square Enix's update for December, posted on 12/20/06:
------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Today, a number of accounts which were confirmed to have violated the user agreement by using unauthorized third-party software tools within FINAL FANTASY XI to enable abnormal in-game movement were discovered and have been suspended or permanently terminated.
Based on the results of our investigation, over 7,450 PlayOnline accounts were terminated while over 250 accounts were temporarily suspended indefinitely.
The breakdown for the suspensions is as follows:
- Accounts confirmed using third party tools to illegally move their characters: 400 cases
- Accounts confirmed using third party tools to give an unfair advantage over other players in order to get claim on Notorious Monsters. 4400 cases
- Accounts confirmed using illegal means to obtain items 100 cases
- Accounts from people that were previously confirmed to have RMT connections, or that had violated the user agreements but re-subscribed to PlayOnline. 2800 cases
The results of our investigation resulted in the confiscation of over 6.2 Billion gil
We would like to take this time to remind our players that the use of any third-party tools will not only destroy the in-game balance, but will also encourage RMT (real money trading) activities. We will continue to take strict actions against those individuals that we have confirmed to have used such tools.
Please note that some of these third-party tools may cause character information to be altered, erased, or personal information to be leaked to unwanted third parties. If you come across a third-party tool over the Internet, we ask that you please refrain from the download of such a tool, no matter how minor it may appear to be.
While we did not include a RMT heading in this announcement, RMT related activities are being investigated by a separate group and we plan to act on the results of this investigation at a later date. With the newly revised policies in effect, our GM teams are not only pursuing the buy and sell of gil, but also the illegal actions by RMT affiliates who seek to control certain areas within FINAL FANTASY XI with the purpose of furthering RMT related activities.
As of Dec. 10, the development team implemented a fix to prevent items from being obtained in an illegal manner. Action has been taken against accounts that participated in these activities.
To ensure that our customers can enjoy the game safely, we will continue to apply measurements to combat these third-party tools and violations.
We thank you for your cooperation and understanding in this matter. -------------------------------------------------------------------
So please, tell us again how RMT is okay...
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Comments
Actually I don't think either won the debate. It seemed more like information...our side and the "dark" side. I have played games ever since pong came out on a home console and lately have been trying to keep up with a virtual world in WOW. I have to say I really hope that Brad pulls off an excellent and fair game with his upcoming release...(and pray Sony gives him grace to "not" have an exchange server). Brad seems a man of moral fiber when it comes to producing a game that is true to what an mmorpg should be, such as was Garriott.
And by the way, who would be
whining after court should our "non-Korean" court (America is grand aint' it) decide that this intellectual property was the game company's property. Oh the RIAA says you don't really own the darned music on that "Deck the Halls" cd you bought this Christmas. Nope...that's why clubs have to pay a royalties fee just to PLAY the jukebox. So you work hard at your company and toil laboriously...............Does that mean you own it. Ha! You'd be fired if you said that.
My wife and I play together and she actually plays alot more than myself being a stay at home mom. We have 3 children all with difficulties and cannot afford the luxury to dish out another 100,200, etc. dollars to go buy gold just to keep up with an inflating game economy. The real world is bad enough as it is, and we would like to have a fantasy world to sometimes escape to that isn't plagued by someone south of Ho Chi Minh City saying "buy gold for horse.1000g for $200.00. In which I hurriedly look up on Swearmonger, how to say "you idiot" in Mandarin. Good thing my virtual hands do not come through the computer screen at them.
Ye who buy the gold. You screw our game up!!! stop.. Go get drunk or something, money much better spent. Everytime you buy gold, a paladin winds up naked somewhere. Some of you know what I mean. And the gold sellers know exactly what I mean
Nope nope, the stuff on it and in it belongs to the game producer/company and I will be so glad to get this debate over once and for all. Brad, tell Sony to take it to court. Get some advice from the RIAA first.(wink)
To the people that have been saying that Secondary Markets are okay because it is not unethical and not cheating as opposed to hacking, you are wrong. What is the definition of cheating? Disobeying the rules of the game. When you agree to the TOS and EULA you are agreeing to a legal contract and the rules of the game. If in those documents it says that you cannot buy and sell items for real life currency, you are then breaking the rules, thus cheating.
To the Korean court case: I don't know how the courts work over there. I do however know any court of law in the United States of America would recognize any legal binding contract that you agree to when you log into an MMO, and that the intellectual properties of the said company were specific in a said contract that you may not sell them.
------------------------------
"Capitalism is currently working as intended."
It seems to me that what is taking place in the Gaming community regarding the secondary market is not only a shift by the companies producing these games but also a shift in competative values.
Let me spin something for everyone to consider: What is the purpose of gaming?
Is it not to challenge the player? Can you name one single game or sport that is not intended to challenge you in some way? Even when there is no winner or loser, there is still someone who competed better then everyone else. Games were created and are still created to challenge you, the player.
The problem is, some opportunistic types see that there is money to be made by giving some players a way to cheat or overcome some of the challenges in the game. And some players take those easy outs and explain it away by saying.. "We'll I work all day and can't play the game as much as so-and-so." or "I don't belong to a super-Guild and can't achieve end-game items."
But what these players don't understand is that they are bypassing the challenge, or the spirit, of the game. This is called cheating, no matter how you look at it, it is cheating. It violates the rules of the game (i.e. the EULA) and it doesnt matter if those rules are invalid in a court of law or not, they ARE the rules of the game. Just because a court of law says you have the right to vioate those rules, doesnt mean that it is proper or ethical to do so.
Unfortunetely many, many people just don't understand how to be ethical or how to play a game the way it was intended to be played. Either they just really don't "get" the spirit of the game, or they enjoy causing mayhem and holding their ill-gotten goods over other people who made their accomplishments legitametly.
And the example Mr Kipe gave about the boat is completely invalid in this debate. We are not talking about boat building, we are talking about gaming. And gaming comes with a set of rules that players are expected to follow. Not because it is a matter of life and death, or because they are forced to, just because that is the way the game was meant to be played. If you want an example here is a better one... When you play Monopoly with your friends do you allow them to start with $10,000 each? No. Why? Because the game was not made to be played that way and not only do they have an unfair advantage but the challenge, the spirit of the game is lost.
It's not about comparing yourself to another player, Mr Kipe is correct in that statement. But the shift in competative values that Mr Kipe advocates is a no-win situation for everyone including the secondary black market which is now being devoured by studios who allow the purchasing of items. The secondary market is a beast that will continue to spawn bad idea after bad idea for decades to come. And it is a shame.
I
can't say too much how I hate people breaking the rules and then
thinking they are better than other people for doing it. Stupid.
[quote]Roger Kipe: I will address both of your arguments:
AnyoneI had a friend that once built a boat. It took him a great deal of time
and was all he thought about for as long as some of his friends could
remember. He celebrated with all of his friends when he finished the
project and took everyone out to see how great the ship performed. He
was as proud of himself for the work he had done as for the ability to
show it to others. We saw plenty of other boats that day on the lake
and some were much more beautiful and clearly worth more money but this
did not deter my friend from gleaming like a beacon as he knew it was
the work and dedication he had put in that made his special and it did
not matter how the others had gotten their boats....[/quote]
else thknk this analogy is fundamentaly flawed ? I understand where
he's coming from, and I agree about the value of accomplishements, but
the analogy doesn't hold the road because there are too many
differences between the environnements (RL vs MMO) that makes it
pointless IMO.
Let us look at the thought patterns for a momment.
I have money. Someone is offering an item in a game. I can buy that item in the game. My agreement says I cannot. The agreement cannot stop me. I can hide the fact that I have broken the agreement. I do not agree to the EULA. The EULA says I must agree to play. I will play even though I do not agree.
I promise you wages. You work for me and perform X amount of hours. I never actually agreed to pay you. I just wanted you to work. I am not going to pay you. It is easier for me to not pay you. I still want you to work for me.
What is wrong here? What kind of morality are we upholding for ourselves and others? We sure can do things. We have arms and legs. We have mouths and hands. We can write a word, or stab someone. But does it make us good or evil? And let me ask you, how would you like the world to be? Well the world is what it is right?
Thanks,
John
I would think that it all comes down to who is getting the money; its all about the money. If I was CEO of a company that created a product and other third parties were making money off of it I would prolly be upset. But IMO I think that third parties are going to continue to make profits where they can, and publishers are going to make money where they can as well. Thats after all the nature of retail, to make a profit. We all know this is a multi-million dollar industry and ther is alot of money involved. Wether or not its right, or fair, or effects the game in a positive way or a negative one.
Without aid from the Federal/State Legislature, how do you combat something like this? In any case, if you spend money battling these third parties I would expect to see an inflation in monthly costs etc. and that defeats the purpose of trying to make a dollar in the first place.
I think that the issue is gonna be to fork out dollars to combat it, (lots of it) or find a means of tolerating it and directing revenues back toward the game itself. Then there is always the issue of tax from Good old IRS.
The truth is third party companies have been in business for a reason, and I'm willing to bet its because they have made good profits. That said, there are a vast majority out there willing to pay money that publishers want, for in game items. I would expect to see more companies and third parties find common ground on a subject If they are in fact revenue driven.
I am not agreeing or disagreeing only I feel money and greed will prevail in a corporate world where millions are at stake.
Wow. What article did you read?
Heck, Brad is the one who used the lawsuit card instead of actually coming up with a thought-provoking argument.
Clearly, Brad was owned. Big time.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
This was one of my posts from before the database loss here...
1. An item I wanted to get in FFXI that was going for 100k shot up to over 500k by the time I'd obtained the money to buy it. This was prior to SE cracking down on the RMT problem.. Since then, that same item is back down to around 100k
2. A Ju-jitsu Gi, another piece of gear in FFXI, cost me 450k at the time I bought it. After that, but before SE started dealing with the RMT problem seriously, the influx of RMT-generated gil in the economy caused the prices of that item - alone - to go up over 3 million. Square started cracking down on the RMT and I've since seen it back down as low as 370k but hanging around 450-500k - about the same price I paid for it 2 years ago.
3. In Lineage II, RMT is so ingrained and the farmers/botters have such a strangle-hold on the economy that when NC does do a token banning, it screws many people up and the prices are all over the place, until the RMT folks get new toons to take their place. Seen this happen a few times.
4. In a few MMOs I've played, RMT botters/farmers will monopolize rare mobs and, in some cases, go as far as attempting to kill off players competing for the spawn. This is the case even in games without PvP. It was a big problem in FFXI before SE stepped in and changed things around.
To address your FFXI concerns the price of items in game inflated so drastically not because of RMT initially, in 2004 a dupe came out in FFXI that lasted until Jan 2006, I would blame SE for not having any control over their game mechanics and not having the checks in place to notice that there was billions of gil a day being added to the economy. You know how the dupe was fixed? Because finally some responsible RMT company found out what was taking place to dupe and contacted SE to hand in the information. A dupe is just as bad for the RMT market as it is for the game economy and players. Then again around March 2006 another dupe ran rampant and again economy started to take a crap, mass supply of gil caused inflation on prices of items. Once again it took an RMT company to turn over the dupe to SE to get it fixed.
As for the camping of rare spawns ect ect this is stemming from the production side of the market, the farming market. This is not Mogs or any other respectable company in the market paying people to go farm, honestly Mogs gets a majority of the currency we sell from Players not from farms. That is how the market was when I started, buying an account strip it down, sell off items in game then sell account and plat. That did not add extra currency to the economy it kept it at the same level.. no inflation! Now things have changed and yes mass farming can cause inflation.. but not to the degree you all think, the inflation is coming about from dupes and hacks. The farms are playing the game, not exploiting and selling items off in Auction Houses to get the currency.. so there is still the intended exchange of Item for Currency.. so its still semi staying in line with the game mechanics of economic development of the server.
I know that due to the RMT market being in place there is an incentive for hackers/dupers to find the next get rich quick bug in a game. But even without our market in place there would still be hacks/ dupes just for players to get an advantage. I mean look at all the cheat/ hack pay sites, you think those would disappear and suddenly the games would become Pure if RMT just dried up? Lets face it whether its in real life or in game people like to get one step ahead and sometimes they will do whatever it takes to get there.
www.Mogs.com
Now, to keep this discourse honest (an ugly word to you I'm sure), allow me to re-quote my statements in an easily legible light yellow:
Quote:
-------------------------------------------------
1. An item I wanted to get in FFXI that was going for 100k shot up to over 500k by the time I'd obtained the money to buy it. This was prior to SE cracking down on the RMT problem.. Since then, that same item is back down to around 100k
2. A Ju-jitsu Gi, another piece of gear in FFXI, cost me 450k at the time I bought it. After that, but before SE started dealing with the RMT problem seriously, the influx of RMT-generated gil in the economy caused the prices of that item - alone - to go up over 3 million. Square started cracking down on the RMT and I've since seen it back down as low as 370k but hanging around 450-500k - about the same price I paid for it 2 years ago.
3. In Lineage II, RMT is so ingrained and the farmers/botters have such a strangle-hold on the economy that when NC does do a token banning, it screws many people up and the prices are all over the place, until the RMT folks get new toons to take their place. Seen this happen a few times.
4. In a few MMOs I've played, RMT botters/farmers will monopolize rare mobs and, in some cases, go as far as attempting to kill off players competing for the spawn. This is the case even in games without PvP. It was a big problem in FFXI before SE stepped in and changed things around.
----------------------------------------------------
End QuoteOkay, the fact that you are trying to present RMT as some legitimate business and using the word "respectable" to describe it makes it, and you, a joke from the get-go. I'm sure your cronies eat it up and cheer you on... the rest of us who actually see it for what it is aren't buying it for a moment.
Before I go any further... let's establish to some intellectual honesty (again, I know it'll be difficult for you.. but try) and set out a few basic, well-supported and easily verifiable facts here, shall we?
1. RMT and its related activities are expressely against the EULA of pretty much every MMORPG out there. You play the game, you agree to the terms and to abide by them.
2. By playing the game and pressing that button that says "I Accept" or "I Agree" or any variation thereof on the EULA screen, that you will not do anything in violation of those rules - whether you personally agree with them or not.
3. It is proven time and again that the MMORPG companies do not want RMT taking place in their game by the very fact that they ban accounts and, in some cases, post the results on their website - such as with Square and Blizzard, among others. Another clear indication that it's probably not something you should be doing. If you doubt this, allow me to point you to a few websites proving it.
4. That there are debates about it to begin with indicates that it is -at best- a questionable activity (though of course, it's not nearly that - it's an outright prohibited activity). If it were as "honky-dory" as you and others try to make it seem, it would just be "how it is" and certainly wouldn't be the topic of so much debate.
That said, it's a lovely picture you paint on the inflation problems... I especially love the bit about the "respectable RMT company blowing the whistle on the duping problem" - which I could believe if you said it was because who ever did the duping was hurting that RMT company's business. Either way, quite the Cinderella story. It would almost be plausible.. had I not played the game since day 1 of its NA PC launch and seen and experienced for myself, first-hand, the direct actions of RMT companies and their direct effects on the economy. The game has been out for what... several years now? I think it's safe to say a dupe that occured over the course of months does not account for the effects of RMT over the long term. And besides which, that dupe was addressed some time ago - yet Square is still tracking down and banning accounts of those engaging in RMT and related activities on a monthly basis. Seems your theory, as usual, doesn't hold up too well when plain common-sense and verifiable fact comes into play.
The whole "if the developers did their jobs better..." argument is over-used and hollow as well.
But again.. I understand.. you have a very personal interest in the RMT industry and so you're doing your part to spread the propaganda and make as many people as possible believe it's a perfectly acceptable practice... even while accounts of those all around them are being banned left and right for it. Oh well.. Ignorance is bliss as they say.
Fact: MMORPGs are games to be *played* within the confines and the context of the game rules that are applied equally to all players, as designed by the developers.
Fact: MMORPGs - other than those specifically designed with it in mind, such as Entropia Universe - are not designed for nor intended to support RMT activity as it throws the level playing-field out of whack.
I have offered up this very simple challenge a couple times now and so far, no one has been able to meet it... Let's see how you fare, oh "Mr. Respectable RMT Company" rep...
Find me documentation - official documentation - in the form of press releases, game manuals, walk-throughs.. anything officially released by a game developer that states buying money from yours or any other RMT company as an intended and encouraged part of their game. Please. I keep assuming that there are so many people who feel they're so justified in engaging in RMT that they must have *something* backing them up beyond their own self-serving theories and opinions... Yet, to date, no one's been able to produce a single printed word, a link.. nothing.
So let's see how you do. Again, I'm not holding my breath.
On the other hand, I can provide ample documentation and links to sources where the companies quite openly and, in some cases, aggressively state that RMT and related activity is strictly prohibited and deemed a bannable offense.
In closing.. Nice try. No cigar.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
www.Mogs.com
There is only one word for this kind of business and those that use it: corruption.
Out of innocent fun appears the possibility to earn money, so the cockroaches don´t need long to take the stage. And worst is, in lazy decadence people actually feed them, thus allowing the parasites to grow and get cocky (best example: this thread) AND totally corrupting everything RPGs used to stand for. RolePlayingGames, yeah, or BuyYourToonAndBeUberInaDay. BYTABUID, so to say.
But hell, that´s what you get when people are indoctrinated to believe that games are about competition AND that if you paid for it, it ain´t cheating. Truth is, some games aren´t all about competition and it IS cheating even if you paid for it.
I have nothing but pity and contempt for people who buy toons/items/gold. I hope they get all banned from everywhere and forever. As for those that make a living out of it, I hope you people manage to get a REAL JOB and I hope your bosses rot in jail. Wishful thinking, but that´s me...
And I present that challenge to people full knowing they could never provide the black-and-white proof that what they're doing is as legit as they claim it to be - because no such documentation exists. Which means, you and your like have no leg to stand on, again, except your home-spun, self-serving theories and rationalizations.. all of which mean squat.
And again, it didn't escape my attention that you managed to slip some more self-promotion into the post.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
The morale of the story is, that you should derive your since of
accomplishment or joy from the work you put into achieving something.
If you constantly judge it or yourself against others you will never be
satisfied with the results.
Not sure if this has been pointed out or not, but I couldn't see it anywhere, but that qoute is the ultimate in contradiction, and basically lost the arguement for our gold-selling friend. It seriously buried him in a way that not even his opponent could match.
He clearly states (marked in red) that your accomplishment or joy should come from the work you have put into acheiving something, however he is selling the exact opposite, meaning he doesn't beleive in what his business does. 100% shot down Mr. Kipe because at this point it became clear that you dont actually beleive in the morals and ethics of gold selling you were defending, but were more intrested in the fast cash from people who have mindsets entirely opposite to what you beleive.
Next tome you go to war, it would be a good idea to make sure your not handing out ammunition to the enemy.
I guess it's a pretty classic question. The hardest of hardcore gamers, who play 12+ hours a day, are typically either young and in school or unemployed. Or have that rare golden job where your employers don't care if you're playing MMOs at work.
So I think then the question arises to many people: Is time a more valuable commodity than money? If I work 52 hours a week, Why should some 14 year old on summer vacation have a better gaming experience than me? He may have more time, but I have more money, shouldn't I be able to balance it out?
I think the answer depends alot on your view of the game. I view it as simply a place to have fun. But a lot of people seem to have the attitude that they have to 'win'.
It also has some larger implications in servers set up for European and possibly asian nations. The income in Germany versus Bulgaria is hugely different.
As to the lawsuit, I found it patentedly ludicrous. The player's efforts in getting the sword made it his, rather than the company who put the time and effort into not only creating the sword to begin with, but creating the methods to get it? Does that mean that since I put the time and effort into finding and buying a MS operating system, it belongs to me and I can ignore it's EULA?
I dont see how posting comments from people that have used your services says anything in favor of RMT. Sure, it shows that your company doesnt rip people off, and that some people think your better then other RMT companies. I'm sure if I talked to 10 crackheads 9 out of 10 would recommend thier dealer to, it still isnt right.
You try to use some companies move to get thier peace of the RMT market as a reason, but games/servers that use RMT arnt where we have the problem with your services. It is the games and servers that where not designed for it that we have the problem with.
Plain and simple selling game currency for real money is against the rules in most games, and should not be allowed in those games. If they make games that allow RMT feel free to do business in those games. I have no problem with you or your company, only it's effects on games I enjoy playing.
In a post I believe was lost I said something along the lines of this. I dont disagree that a constant influx of new currency will cause inflation, but when you've played a game for 2 years and the inflation was slow and steady, and suddenly within months of RMT becoming mainstream prices jump 4 times as much as they did in the previous 2 years, then you can figure out what's going on without being nearly as intelligent as I am.
I'm sure dupe bugs and other such dishonest things added to it, but there where times of inflation with no known dupes going on. Even if your comnpany has never from infancy to now used such means of gaining gold, others of your ilk have. I'm sure there are companies such as yours that attempt to stay as legitimate as a company that breaks the rules can be. But there are plenty of you that do not.
I have seen this for a very long time starting with the first sales of uo items on ebay. I said right then and there the company is missing out on lotza money by not setting up a secure trade. well took them a few years to get the program set up but they did finnaly fall in line. You can't stop it so join it and you make the money you being the game company instead of ebay.
As far as ingame economies being ruined by this I just dont see it. Anyone who buys gold is still gonna look ingame for the best deals.Prices ingame are determined by supply and demand. I sold gold for a few years on several different games before they had game companies selling it. Most of my gold buyers were buying gold to buy crafting supplies. Very rarely did I hear any of them tell me they were buying the gold for a item. In uo lots of them bought gold for houses if you want to consider that a item then so be it.
I feel like the game companies need to take charge of thier own items and help with securing trades.
I also heard the irs is also looking at this ingame property having real world value and are working towards taxing us on it. I see this as we have no one to blame but ourselves.
Could it be that someday only the very wealthy can even play these games? well the p2p games anyway. The F2p games are really turning alot of heads. I recently tried one of the newer ones out and was like WOW there are alot of people in this game. Arewe going to see a major market change and they all go F2p? The companies doing this must be making money off selling items or they would not be making so many of them. Just try Rappelz I think you will be shocked at how many players are there,and how many you see that have items that have been purchased with the ole USD from there item mall.
played M59,UO,lineage,EQ,Daoc,Entropia,SWG,Horizons,Lineage2.EQ2,Vangaurd,Irth online, DarkFall,Star Trek
and many others that did not make the cut or i just plain forgetting about.
I'm glad the gov't is going to start taxing them. Good. Serves 'em right. Those like myself who actually *play* the game won't be affected. Let the lazy idiots who want everything "now" and choose to buy their way through the games because - heaven forbid - they would otherwise actually be "forced" to experience the game the way it was intended to be played, and be - gasp - challenged enjoy reaping the fruits of what they've sown. Couldn't leave well enough alone and insist on bringing real life values into a fantasy game... well, the Government is gonna help you along. Good job, y'all. Hope you enjoy paying your real taxes on fictitious items. Myself and others like me will be playing the game the way it was designed. I hope it's a steep tax, too. Serves 'em right for being lazy, challenge-inept imbeciles in the first place.
Yes, I mean every word of that as harshly as it's come across.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Perhaps you are not getting the entire point.... If in game items or currency is taxes then it will be taxed for everyone, not just those guys that buy it from the RMT shops. Either the items have currency or they dont according to the Goverment!
Perhaps you are not getting the entire point.... If in game items or currency is taxes then it will be taxed for everyone, not just those guys that buy it from the RMT shops. Either the items have currency or they dont according to the Goverment!
Naw... They can only tax what people spend in real-world money; eg. RMT.
You can't place a real-world tax on fictitious currency in a fake economy. Things bought or otherwise acquired entirely in-game for gold, or silver, or adena, or gil, or isk, or information or any other made-up form of currency in an online game cannot have a real-world tax applied to them.
I'm pretty certain this is only going to affect RMT purchases that happen outside the game and involve the exchange of real-world money. To which I still say.. Good.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Perhaps you are not getting the entire point.... If in game items or currency is taxes then it will be taxed for everyone, not just those guys that buy it from the RMT shops. Either the items have currency or they dont according to the Goverment!
Naw... They can only tax what people spend in real-world money; eg. RMT.
You can't place a real-world tax on fictitious currency in a fake economy. Things bought or otherwise acquired entirely in-game for gold, or silver, or adena, or gil, or isk, or information or any other made-up form of currency in an online game cannot have a real-world tax applied to them.
I'm pretty certain this is only going to affect RMT purchases that happen outside the game and involve the exchange of real-world money. To which I still say.. Good.
Nope... It works like this...
RMT companies already pay taxes on the selling of currency. What the federal goverment is talking about doing is assigning a real world value to in game currency or items and then charging a tax on anyone who trades them in game or buys them in game. As the Federal Goverment sees it, if they have a real world value and are traded on a regular basis then they should be taxed. That is the danger in what they are discussing. So be prepared to pay a tax on every item you buy and sell in game.
Perhaps you are not getting the entire point.... If in game items or currency is taxes then it will be taxed for everyone, not just those guys that buy it from the RMT shops. Either the items have currency or they dont according to the Goverment!
Naw... They can only tax what people spend in real-world money; eg. RMT.
You can't place a real-world tax on fictitious currency in a fake economy. Things bought or otherwise acquired entirely in-game for gold, or silver, or adena, or gil, or isk, or information or any other made-up form of currency in an online game cannot have a real-world tax applied to them.
I'm pretty certain this is only going to affect RMT purchases that happen outside the game and involve the exchange of real-world money. To which I still say.. Good.
Nope... It works like this...
RMT companies already pay taxes on the selling of currency. What the federal goverment is talking about doing is assigning a real world value to in game currency or items and then charging a tax on anyone who trades them in game or buys them in game. As the Federal Goverment sees it, if they have a real world value and are traded on a regular basis then they should be taxed. That is the danger in what they are discussing. So be prepared to pay a tax on every item you buy and sell in game.
Edit:
Originally, this post was a concession that I'd discovered that there are plans to impose taxes on in-game/virtual items and such... Now it's merely a concession that there is certainly a prevalent rumor that it's so...
After posting this message originally this morning, I went to work and got to talking with a co-worker about it. His initial response, "Oh, that's crap..." And we didn't really talk much more about it. I went back to my desk and started the day.. about 10 minutes later, he says "Hey Mike... come here...". On his screen was the following link:
http://computationaltruth.net/rants/archive/2006/12/the_stupidity_of_the_mmorpg_ta.html
Between that and several other articles he went on to read after that (he was as appalled by the idea as me, and he don't even play MMOs!) the overwhelming concensus is that:
A: It's a rumor. There is no official, substantiated word that the government has any intention of placing real taxes on virtual assets with no real world value, much less that they're in the process of implementing it.
B: There are currently no laws, regulations, etc. to impose on virtual economies where virtual items/money are exchanged for other virtual items/money. There is no tangible real-world benefit to it. It's all vapor. That's not to say that, at some point down the road, it *couldn't* happen.. it's just not likely to happen for a goooooood long time. And, even then, like so much else on the Internet, it's impossible to track. Who exactly would police it? In all, tens of Millions of people play and exchange items and virtual money from all around the world, every minute of everyday. Who's going to set and enforce the laws on that scale?
The only place I can see this happening is in something like Second Life or Entropia Universe where real world currency is directly converted into in-game cash and, most importantly, *back* again into real world cash. Similarly, RMT can be taxed as, again, real world money is coming into play on both ends of the transaction... since in those cases, it's really not much different from buying something from Amazon.com, etc. Again, it's something like poetic justice to me. Wanna use real money to play a fantasy game, 'cause you're too lazy to play within the intended game rules? Fine... pay real world taxes, too. Enjoy lying in the bed you've made. The rest of us legitimate players will be playing the game as designed, earning our gear/assets as intended and paying no more than our monthly subscription.
So.. in the end, it's not nearly so doom and gloom as I thought it would be. I don't imagine it's going to be a problem for a very very long time - if ever.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
played M59,UO,lineage,EQ,Daoc,Entropia,SWG,Horizons,Lineage2.EQ2,Vangaurd,Irth online, DarkFall,Star Trek
and many others that did not make the cut or i just plain forgetting about.
Perhaps you are not getting the entire point.... If in game items or currency is taxes then it will be taxed for everyone, not just those guys that buy it from the RMT shops. Either the items have currency or they dont according to the Goverment!
Dude, get your head out, they can only tax you for Real life transactions. And I hope they tax the bejesus out of them.
If you want a new idea, go read an old book.
In order to be insulted, I must first value your opinion.
Perhaps you are not getting the entire point.... If in game items or currency is taxes then it will be taxed for everyone, not just those guys that buy it from the RMT shops. Either the items have currency or they dont according to the Goverment!
Dude, get your head out, they can only tax you for Real life transactions. And I hope they tax the bejesus out of them.
Indeed. They should call it the "Stupid & Lazy Tax" - and define it as "A tax imposed on those too inept, or just too lazy to play a MMORPG within the parameters it was designed and promoted to be played; whom instead insist on supporting a prohibited behavior by buying their way through a fantasy game, purchasing fictitious items and currency with real world money. Further, it is aimed at those whom, despite mountains of proof to the contrary readily available for anyone capable of doing a simple Google search, continue to insist that it is a justified and perfectly acceptable means of playing a game. For their inability to adhere to the same rules as everyone else, as well as their blatant ignorance of the facts that clearly show RMT as a prohibited activity, not to mention how they annoy everyone else with their cries of injustice and lack of "fairness" in being "forced" to play a game the way it was designed (oh, the horror), we are imposing this tax. Maybe that'll get it through to them and shut them up once and for all."
For those who *still* want to debate it.. I give you Square Enix's update for December, posted on 12/20/06:
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Today, a number of accounts which were confirmed to have violated the user agreement by using unauthorized third-party software tools within FINAL FANTASY XI to enable abnormal in-game movement were discovered and have been suspended or permanently terminated.
Based on the results of our investigation, over 7,450 PlayOnline accounts were terminated while over 250 accounts were temporarily suspended indefinitely.
The breakdown for the suspensions is as follows:
- Accounts confirmed using third party tools to illegally move their characters:
400 cases
- Accounts confirmed using third party tools to give an unfair advantage over other
players in order to get claim on Notorious Monsters.
4400 cases
- Accounts confirmed using illegal means to obtain items
100 cases
- Accounts from people that were previously confirmed to have RMT connections, or that had violated the user agreements but re-subscribed to PlayOnline.
2800 cases
The results of our investigation resulted in the confiscation of over 6.2 Billion gil
We would like to take this time to remind our players that the use of any third-party tools will not only destroy the in-game balance, but will also encourage RMT (real money trading) activities. We will continue to take strict actions against those individuals that we have confirmed to have used such tools.
Please note that some of these third-party tools may cause character information to be altered, erased, or personal information to be leaked to unwanted third parties. If you come across a third-party tool over the Internet, we ask that you please refrain from the download of such a tool, no matter how minor it may appear to be.
While we did not include a RMT heading in this announcement, RMT related activities are being investigated by a separate group and we plan to act on the results of this investigation at a later date. With the newly revised policies in effect, our GM teams are not only pursuing the buy and sell of gil, but also the illegal actions by RMT affiliates who seek to control certain areas within FINAL FANTASY XI with the purpose of furthering RMT related activities.
As of Dec. 10, the development team implemented a fix to prevent items from being obtained in an illegal manner. Action has been taken against accounts that participated in these activities.
To ensure that our customers can enjoy the game safely, we will continue to apply measurements to combat these third-party tools and violations.
We thank you for your cooperation and understanding in this matter.
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So please, tell us again how RMT is okay...
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops