Okay alott of reactions make sence but lets get real, in the real world we have what we call money balalance currency/gold, what if 20 % of all people over the world had their own money printing machine (sure some might have such machines but i don't think they will advertise for having them) i personaly think that it will disrupt the whole world econemy
Simple put secondary market totaly ruins games, no way in defending otherwise, no excuses like i can not keep up with my friends (ithats like my friends jump into a vulcano so should i kinda nonsens) It hurts the econemy of the game aswell some pleasure in the game, why, because those working to gain that gold or item for those secondary markets are those that do not bring you fun ingame.
Unfortunaly secondary market will contineu to grow cause the majority of wanna be gamers also is growing.
In my personal view a real gamer will never ever use a secondary market to aquire items/money ect no matter what, if the game is to hard or if his/her gameplaytime is to short a real gamer will find himself a nice other game to enjoy or deals with the fact he/she is falling behind from friends and might need to make new friends along the way, but if the other friends are getting higher and faster lvl'd then you should not be afraid of loosing them, but thats only if you really can call them friends
There are basically 4 approaches to stopping people from trading in virtual goods:
1) Copyright/IP. This collapses if it's recognised that what is being sold are not virtual goods but a virtual service. "I will pay you $400 for your hat of wizardry" is merely a shorthand for "I will pay you $400 to transfer the hat of wizardy in the inventory of the character controlled by you to the inventory of the character controlled by me". If Blizzard/Vivendi win the IP argument and their rights to ownership of virtual goods are recognised, all it will lead to is a change of words in the eBay auction proposal. If they lose the IP argument, it's open season on all virtual worlds...
2) EULA/ToS. This collapses if the people making the money are not signatories of the EULA/ToS. I guess some argument could be made about their having "agents" doing their work for them, but this doesn't even hold up well for mafia dons ordering hoods to kill people on their behalf, so I don't expect it would frighten off an auction house. What Vivendi could do is take a zero tolerance policy and go after every single person whom they can show to be breaking the EULA. This will mean a lot of bannings, but they'd eventually win.
3) Alter the code. Cap the amount of gold that characters can give away per month. Cap the number of objects that can have their ownership transferred from a character per month. Don't perform account or avatar transfers unless 3 from name, address and credit card details match. This would drive a gaping hole in the commodifiers' activities. However, Blizzard shouldn't have to do that. Creating virtual worlds is, at its heart, an artistic endeavour. Why should an artist who's doing nothing wrong have to change their art because people spoil it?
4) "It's just a game". The traditional way, as practiced in small-scale virtual worlds for 25 years. No EULA, no ToS, you can do whatever you like in the virtual world. So, however, can the developers, and they have access to the code. Thus, if they don't like what you're doing they can eliminate your goods, character, account - anything the code allows. It may be that this approach can't be scaled up, and it may be that consumer protection laws designed for non-game activities interfere if there's no EULA. In the end, though, it comes down to "it's my ball and if I don't want you to play with it then you can't". If that ability were ever successfully challenged, few companies would ever want to run a virtual world - their hands would be tied too tightly.
Given that having no EULA is probably not an option for a large-scale commercial virtual world at the moment, I'd have recommended Blizzard to go for 3) using data mining to find a reasonable capping level, backed up with a zero-tolerance attitude to put petty traders off scaling up their activities. The IP question does need answering, but I don't believe the answers are going to affect the outcome.
THe simplest solution is to just have all items bind when picked up and only being sellable to a shopkeeper NPC. No trading, no twinking, no profit in farming. Hell, make it really hardcore and have the shopkeeper not even have an inventory - just sell starting equipment.
The secondary market is wrong, you can try to justify it anyway you like, but you're using advantages outside the game to influence other players enjoyment (either directly or indirectly).
It's like playing a game of chess, with someone 'buying' an extra queen. It's against the rules and certainly the sprit of the game.
And don't give me that 'free-market' crap. Becuase thats what it is. Even free markets have rules to protect people. Having a secondary market is like someone printing free money in real life, and unless I'm mistaken, that's illegal. Sure one person doing it isn't going to have much of an impact, but enough people ruins the economy, and if you don't understand that, you have no grasp of simple economics.
These are games, games have rules, and everyone needs to play with the same rules.
Another issue about the Secondary Market is that the American Gov't is actually considering taxing ingame gold since it has real world value. Yes folks, due to these farmers breaking the EULA and then trying to duck and hide under legal mumbo-jumbo I may have to pay sales tax every time I earn gold ingame. I am not making this up.
I've said it before in other posts but I guess I have to repeat it here. One of the problems with this issue is the games are international. So what if USA makes it 100% illegal to buy/sell ingame items, that means nothing to a Chinese guy selling something to his friend in Germany. Would have to get some kind of international law so that they could prosecute the violaters where ever they are.
Too often the farmer tries to twist words and say "well I'm not actually selling the Sword of Uberness, I'm just charging someone to transfer it from Account A to Account B". Now, put that argument into a real world situation: "no officer I'm not actually selling the heroine, I'm just transferring it from Dealer A to Dealer B". The realization is that fudging the semantics doesn't change that act.
SOE having an exchange service has also compounded the issue. Now the farmers feel the Secondary Market has be validated by SOE hopping on the bus to make a buck.
It's really funny that in fact the game companys are the ones that created the problem. The in game economy as long as a game has one these there is going to be RMT. If the game company flooded their in game market no one would have to buy gold from a third party, and if no one buys they have no business to push in said game.
I played EQ For Years, and one thing that pissed me off is when I knew that someone "Ebayed" Someone wqho did not earn their gear, or character. Even if these secondary markets help people compete, it is only because they cant compete in the first place. In these games, I play them for accomplishments, and what brad said about these markets destroying communities, is so True!.
Originally posted by mongooser Hmmm, I like this part: "So once again, if you choose to RMT, at least acknowledge that you are playing the game outside the intended parameters the company has designed it in and that you are doing something that is highly frowned upon and actively prohibited." Have you ever drove over the speed limit in your life? You are operating outside of the "parameters" of the vehicle and the law... I could ask you a million other "have you ever" questions, however I do not have the time to waste. If the MMO devs want that much control over the games then they should be "rentals" not "sales". Either way you still will not change the market, this will only be changed by the customers. How many years have we had a war on drugs? And that is actually against the law, I do not think EULA's, NDA's, or even a TOS has anything to do with "Law". So until this goes to court you are talking to a wall You can preach all you want it is all about supply and demand. Don't you find it funny that Blizzard bans 10k accounts and less then 2 months later their sales jumps 10k, well golly jee willickers I wonder who bought those 10k copies, making Blizzard another $500k in gross sales... It does not matter to me either way, in fact I was the first player in WOW to have all the classes/crafting to level cap(60/300) 8 Horde on Nathrezim and a Pally on Bleeding Hollow. The account has been inactive more then a year, but I still have it. If I was hell bent on making money via MMO's would I not have sold it already? Of course if you wanted to make an offer...
Well, you certainly gave me a wonderful analogy to use as an example supporting my point...
If I am speeding.. I'm speeding. And if I'm stopped and given a ticket - it's because I was clearly exceeding the speeds marked on the speed-signs. I am going to shut up, acknowledge that I was breaking a law and accept the ticket. I'm not claiming to have a right to speed. I'm not going to pull a bunch of neat-sounding but ultimately pointless rationales or justifications out of thin air to try to argue why it was okay for me to be speeding. The cop or the judge is not going to care what my reasons are - even if I convince him that I didn't see the speed sign and didn't know it was 60. The speed was set at 60, I was going 70. I was breaking the law. I was caught. I will be penalized. Period. End of discussion.
Same with the EULA and RMT. Whether you've read it or not, whether you choose to acknowledge it or not, no matter what clever-sounding rebuttals you pose - you are agreeing to not partake in RMT, or any other prohibited activities while you are playing the *company's* - not your - game. If you are caught, you are penalized, either by suspension or complete banning. If it happens, shut up, acknowledge that you were busted and accept it. Or.. don't do it in the first place.
I'm not even going to dignify your war on drugs example with a response - because it's just ridiculous and pointless to do so. The speeding analogy covers it perfectly.
And, I guess this will just never sink in with some people. I don't have to "preach"... It is, however, against the EULA you are agreeing to when you play the game. The facts stand for themselves... Square Enix banned around 1,100 accounts in FFXI in November *alone* because they were partaking in RMT and other related activities. They don't do it at random. They don't pick and choose which subscribers they don't like. They do it because the players are violating the terms of their EULA. There is no arguing this. There is no debating this. It *happens* all the time. All the theories and beliefs and arguments under the sun have no weight against it. You are going to be banned all the same.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Originally posted by DrowNoble Another issue about the Secondary Market is that the American Gov't is actually considering taxing ingame gold since it has real world value. Yes folks, due to these farmers breaking the EULA and then trying to duck and hide under legal mumbo-jumbo I may have to pay sales tax every time I earn gold ingame. I am not making this up. I've said it before in other posts but I guess I have to repeat it here. One of the problems with this issue is the games are international. So what if USA makes it 100% illegal to buy/sell ingame items, that means nothing to a Chinese guy selling something to his friend in Germany. Would have to get some kind of international law so that they could prosecute the violaters where ever they are. Too often the farmer tries to twist words and say "well I'm not actually selling the Sword of Uberness, I'm just charging someone to transfer it from Account A to Account B". Now, put that argument into a real world situation: "no officer I'm not actually selling the heroine, I'm just transferring it from Dealer A to Dealer B". The realization is that fudging the semantics doesn't change that act. SOE having an exchange service has also compounded the issue. Now the farmers feel the Secondary Market has be validated by SOE hopping on the bus to make a buck.
First.. I don't put it past SOE to do *anything* if they think it'll make them more money. While most other companies are outwardly denouncing and taking measures to stop RMT, they're embracing it. I am not surprised.
As for the Gov't charging tax.. hey... so long as it's happening and a business is making money.. of course they want their cut.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Interesting debate presented here. I haven't read through all pages of the replies, so am uncertain whether it has been mentioned before. To me, buying in-game items, power-leveling, accounts or whatever with real life cash is the MMOG equivalent of god mode/cheat codes. One could also make the comparison to illegal performance-enhancing drugs in athletes. Does an athlete truly deserve a medal or record if he or she didn't have the talent, physical prowess or time to do it on their own without the use of performance-enhancing drugs?
Also, Mr. Kipe stated something to the effect that if what secondary market companies are doing is illegal, there would have been lawsuits against them. Interesting that most secondary market companies (from what I can tell) are off-shore from the US (even though they may be American owners) precisely to avoid lawsuits based on breaking of the EULAs. If these secondary market companies truly thought what they were doing is right, they'd form open, same country companies as the games are based in and relish the opportunity to prove once and for all they are legitimate.
Over the last three pages the only arguments I have read pro RMT are People do it anyway, and I dont care what anyone else says, I want RMT.
People smoke crack cocain, people shoot up heroin, people shoot people in the head, people rob businesses, people kidnap people, people do alot of stupid shit, this does not mean we should make it legal or accept it.
As for the ones that simply dont care, go buy a ps3 an x box and a wii, this way you can spend all your money and the rest of us can still enjoy A GAME MANY OTHERS PLAY AT THE SAME TIME.
Secondary markets are very bad for an MMO. A few points:
In the past 5 mo. playing EQ2 I have gotten numerous tells about gold selling sites (this sucked because I had to spend a few mins. reporting it ). Now I'm getting in-game mail for these sites. Because of this It's not suprising that prices have gone drastically up for goods on the market.
Secondary markets are bad because of the people and/or actions that it brings. If it was a case of one guy having too many nice items selling them to someone working 60 hours a week that would be fine. When you have people just trying to make money by node stealing or using bots to block out content for days it has gone too far.
Someone who got a paycheck running a "gateway" from gold to money and back again is going to defend it. That's no suprise. People who want to enjoy a game without it being cheapened by secondary markets will want them routed.
The arguments made by Mr. Kipe are inherently flawed. Take his boat analogy. If you look at it from the point of the developers being the ones building the boat, then it's like someone taking the boat out for a spin, selling it to their friend, and pocketing the money... all without permission.
In the vein it was intended, other players own boats, it's still flawed; and this was the point Brad was trying to make. If it were a boat show, then fine... go look at the pretty boats. But RMT is more analogous to other people ramming their boats into yours because they don't know how to work them.
The thing that bothers me the most about RMT believers is their propensity to feel they have some right to do what they do. Going back to the boat analogy... it's on parallel with people feeling they have the right to buy a stolen boat because someone is willing to sell it to them. RMT sites have no right to sell the goods they offer... they're stolen!
Of course, I'm a believer that this whole thing is quite avoidable with proper rules within the game.
1) Stop off-line selling. #1 economy killer in an MMO is off-line traders. You make the person have to be there, have to advertise, a-la EQ1 before the bazaar. I always felt trading and such was more interesting when there was more interaction.
2) Track all avenues of revenue. You can then data mine to look for anomalies in where people are getting their gold. There are ways to do this... they may be tricky and somewhat complex, but there are ways.
3) By far the best way to police this issue is community. When people play as much for the community as for the game experience they're much less likely to buy things to achieve their goals.
4) Lastly, make a game worth playing. If gold can only get you so far, it will discourage the buying because it doesn't really put you that far ahead. Additionally, if getting that gold is a difficult/challenging prospect to begin with, then people will be less likely to part with their reserves. As far as character sells, those typically happen when a person is tired of the game.
I know people who participate in this are not going away anytime soon. Shaming, berating, pleading, etc. amounts to little with these people because they don't have enough integrity to feel what they're doing is wrong. If you can bring the focus on the game and the community within the game instead of on the character and his ill-gotten booty (or his ill-booten gotty), then you'll have a better game all-around while weakening the dregs of the MMO community.
This is like listening to an Atheist and a Christian argue back and forth.
The athetist (Pro RMT) keeps pointing out factual data suporting his point and all the Christian (Anti-RMT) can do is make stereotypically uneducated, broad and ignorant phrases such as "It's wrong" without having to back it up with any proof other than citing the popular concensus.
The RMT is the future of mmorpgs. If anyone reading lacks the foresight to agree with that statement then feel free to ease back into your comfortable little rut of understanding that the world is black and white right and wrong.
"Buying an extra queen?"
"Printing Money"?
Probably the worst analogies I've heard in months.
If you occasionally speed to work, you're a criminal and you're putting lives at risk.
Stick that black and whie tobacco in your pipe and smoke it.
I personally have been on both sides of the fence of this argument, I have invested many of my RL hours into games much to my woman's dismay as well I have been a RMT customer. I have grown up a video game addict since atari 2600 on and got hooked on mmoprgs since the OG EQ. Currently I am a working professional that makes a pretty decent living I have two little kids and a good social life. I dedacate my most of my gaming to the weekdays as when I get home from work I like a bit of escape for a few hours. This being said I kind of put my gamer ranking in between casual and hardcore (as I have been known to waste a few sick days playing). Here is my viewpoint for both sides of the debate:
1. anti-rmt : The people who side with this pretty much are battling a war that deals with time factor and they feel those who can spend the most amount of time per day playing should have the uberest gears. But since alot of people do not have the amount of free time to go on the necessary amount of raids to join a lotting group (which turns out to be a bit of a pyramid scheme as the bottom members help the top members get their gear first). I have nothing against people who have the time and put the effort in to get the highly prized items, as in my younger days I used to be one but for my stage in life I can no longer do it.
2. pro-rmt : The people feel like the time they invested entitles them to do what they wish regarding the items and characters that they created. I do not think there is anything work with people trying to make a buck, the problem with this is that this leads to farm shops being set up that seriously do put regular gamers hardcore and casual alike at a disadvantage to obatain highly valued items. I feel it is completely unfair to try to camp a mob against well known RMT characters to get an items, and unfortunetly this played perfectly into their hands. I'll use FFXI here as an example, I enjoyed playing that game with my friends but camping NMs became so tedius and frustrating that I gave up and felt it was worth it to buy gil allowing me just to purchase items so I could save my time and enjoy the game at high levels. I basicly comes down to the fact that I make enough money to say... 'hey me spending 3-4 hours hoping to get a claim on a mob and on top of that hoping it drops the item I wanted was not worth it'. If I spent 10 bucks to buy virtual money so i could buy an item, that would take me hours to camp and in RL I would make hundred of dollars in those hours it was logical for me to just click away and have fun.
I would like for there to be a happy medium place in this whole argument as I have seen RMT in all the MMORPGS I have played even though I have supported them, it is not something I am proud of as all I want to do is have fun like the rest of you. In the end I do believe there will always be some sort of RMT in these types of games, the burden is really upon the designers on how deep it gets. I was impressed by the way Sqaure finally stood up and noticed the issue was bonkers and did something about it besides banning tons of players, they also made it so more casual player could get uber gears by doing 'assualt' missions to accumulate points to eventually earn gear without having to camp against others or invest outrageous amounts of time. Regardless of how this debate turns out I already got my pre-order copy of Vanguard........
Long debate , no really good answer on how to have a real solution to content RMT players and RP players but may be RMT are not the head of the problem. I think the problem of RMT is this one : why a gamer pay to get an account or an item ? All here have an answer and its most the same : chalenging. In the last 5 years, a world contest has grown : witch has the biggest sword or killed the XXX level boss of the game ! So people now pay to have the biggest of the biggest. I remember some peoples playing EQ in his first age who didnt care of theses things and played with fun. For my part the responsability of the RMT in the MMO games is both the part of players and dev. I explain my opinion in a simple phrase : what idea really new has come in our MMORPGs since the first release of UO/EQ/AO ? What new contest do we had even killing the biggest mob and getting the best stuff ? Perhaps i am wrong but i really think we need new heads to enjoy players. I am perhaps a dreamer but i really hope a new rpg with new ideas and not only heading on "i have the best thing". I want fun, I want good stories, I want to be interested and not become a gamebot in front of a PC. To finish, i remember the first time i logged into EQ some years ago : there was an ambiance really incredible with music and graphics, i fell small, young and when i attacked my first bat it was a big first fight. And why i remember this loggin after 6 years : EQ at this time had a soul, a marvelous soul.
Originally posted by Shakkles This is like listening to an Atheist and a Christian argue back and forth. The athetist (Pro RMT) keeps pointing out factual data suporting his point and all the Christian (Anti-RMT) can do is make stereotypically uneducated, broad and ignorant phrases such as "It's wrong" without having to back it up with any proof other than citing the popular concensus. The RMT is the future of mmorpgs. If anyone reading lacks the foresight to agree with that statement then feel free to ease back into your comfortable little rut of understanding that the world is black and white right and wrong. "Buying an extra queen?" "Printing Money"? Probably the worst analogies I've heard in months. If you occasionally speed to work, you're a criminal and you're putting lives at risk. Stick that black and whie tobacco in your pipe and smoke it.
"...all the Christian (Anti-RMT) can do is make stereotypically uneducated, broad and ignorant phrases such as "It's wrong" without having to back it up with any proof other than citing the popular concensus."
Oh really.
Are you completely brain-dead? No proof other than citing the popular consensus? Oh oh.. you mean those whose opinions don't suit your own. I get it. Umm.. sorry you're wrong. Some others and myself speak on personal experience with the changes in a MMO that increasing RMT over time has introduced. I have given specific examples in an earlier post in this thread. Of course, people like yourself who don't want to accept hard evidence will simply overlook it or dismiss it - since it doesn't serve your own personal agenda.
I hate to break it to you - but the real problems with RMT go way beyond any "popular consensus". They are problems resulting from RMT/farming/botting which the game designers/support teams themselves deal with on a daily basis and see their repurcussions at a much higher level than you or I or any other player. As a result, they recognize that RMT throws things way out of whack and makes the game unplayable for many people. In a game where every player is provided the same tools and means to achieve a given goal as every other player - a balanced playing field if you will - RMT introduces an unintended and unwelcomed element that completely throws that all off-balance and makes the game enjoyable for only a portion of the population, while making it harder for everyone else. It becomes an uneven playing field.
These are the findings of the game's support teams themselves, through data gathered relating to all players across all servers... not just one person on one server who feels they're somehow more priviledged than everyone else. If you honestly believe you have a better grip or overview on how things are affected in their game by any given player activity than they do, you are severely delusional. The developers have hard numbers which support the attitude I and others against RMT base their arguments on. The Pro-RMT people have home-brewed theories and self-edifying analogies based only upon your own self-serving opinions. The fact that RMT is a bannable offense clearly shows that reality doesn't share the pro-RMT point-of-view.
Another point against your "popular consensus" theory.. do some research. Go to different games' websites and do some reading, you'll find information regarding their stance on RMT and how they deal with it. Here's a direct quote from Play Online, which they post once a month... It relates to the usage of third-party programs and such - but still manages to remove 10s of billions of gil from the economy across all servers.. Now, guess where the vast majority of that gil and 3rd-party software usage comes from? DING! RMT farmers - the people you in-turn buy your way through the game from!
"We would like to remind players that the use of third party programs adversely affect game balance. Along with affecting game balance, other risks can arise from use of third party programs that are not immediately obvious such as possibly introducing damaging viruses and compromising the security of private account details. Usage of third-party tools will not be tolerated within FINAL FANTASY XI and we will continue to severely penalize any players found to be in violation of the PlayOnline Member Agreement.
During this round of account terminations, we mainly focused on RMT operations that were active within Japan. However, rest assured that our continued investigations encompass all regions where RMT activity is occurring.
As we continue to ensure a fun and balanced environment for FINAL FANTASY XI, we hope that our players enjoy the game as it was intended and take care to avoid involvement in activities that violate the PlayOnline Member Agreement."
In particular, note the second paragraph... notice what they say, "we mainly focused on RMT operations... However, rest assured that our continued investigations encompass all regions where RMT activity is occurring." Gee... I wonder what that could mean? That RMT is okee-dokey and honky-dory? Wrong. It's prohibited. And, because by now I'm fairly certain most, if not all, the pro-RMT posters in this thread will not comprehend the simple connection here... I'll spell it out for you.
The RMT farmers are using these prohibited 3rd party programs/hacks to obtain the gil you are buying. They automate their movements, they scan the game's memory and auto-target/claim high-demand mobs giving them a ridiculous and unfair advantage over legitimate players. By this they make the game completely imbalanced against people actually playing the game the way it was designed to be played. This alone is reason to deal with them. But it doesn't stop there... They use 3rd party apps and related tactics to monopolize named creatures and valuable items, shoving out legitimate players from *playing* the game they are paying for, driving the prices up and making many things unattainable to anyone but those willing to buy their in-game money. To be clear: the affect RMT has on a game is *not* only in that it allows you to buy things that others have to work for - it is not so simple, nor puritan an issue. There are a number of peripheral effects that it has as well - none of which are good. All of which need to be dealt with. And, no, it doesn't mean that the developers made a mistake by not designing RMT into the game and should alter it to allow both - another ridiculous rebuttal I've seen.
To point out another simple truth that seems to completely go over some people's (pro-RMT's) heads: MMORPGs are games designed to be played and enjoyed by people within the parameters set forth in the game by the developers. They are not market-places for subscribers to put up a store-front and run their own business selling money/item/account for real-world money through eBay, IGE and other sites completely unrelated and unsupported by the developer/publisher. If you disagree, please provide me the official documentation that states where I'm wrong. Go ahead. I can wait. Seriously. If so many of you RMT'ers feel so completely justified and righteous in what you're doing, it must mean you've got some kind of leg to stand on beyond your own personal opinions. So please, let's see it. I can back myself and everything I say up with hard proof. Can you?
If that comes across as arrogant, well, then maybe it is. And I really don't care if pro-RMT types are offended by it, because I am offended by your lazy, self-centered, self-serving, dishonest attitudes, that you believe the rules don't apply to you and you can just do as you please, indifferent to how it - demonstrably - affects others. Except for a few notable exceptions, MMOs are not designed with RMT in mind. They have terms prohibiting RMT and related activity in their Terms of Use/EULAs. They outwardly express that they prohibit and will penalize anyone caught engaging in RMT And related activity - such as the FFXI example above. And finally, they regularly and openly follow through on that by actively banning accounts of people for violating those terms. Seriously... How much more proof could you pro-RMTers need to finally get it into your heads that you are *wrong*?
So.. by all means, please keep arguing your ridiculous rebuttals and theories and analogies in favor it all you want. In fact, when you decide to contact the game company with all that drivel after they've banned you - please come and post the results here. I would *love* to see their response - or non-response to it.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Originally posted by equinix I personally have been on both sides of the fence of this argument, I have invested many of my RL hours into games much to my woman's dismay as well I have been a RMT customer. I have grown up a video game addict since atari 2600 on and got hooked on mmoprgs since the OG EQ. Currently I am a working professional that makes a pretty decent living I have two little kids and a good social life. I dedacate my most of my gaming to the weekdays as when I get home from work I like a bit of escape for a few hours. This being said I kind of put my gamer ranking in between casual and hardcore (as I have been known to waste a few sick days playing). Here is my viewpoint for both sides of the debate:
1. anti-rmt : The people who side with this pretty much are battling a war that deals with time factor and they feel those who can spend the most amount of time per day playing should have the uberest gears. But since alot of people do not have the amount of free time to go on the necessary amount of raids to join a lotting group (which turns out to be a bit of a pyramid scheme as the bottom members help the top members get their gear first). I have nothing against people who have the time and put the effort in to get the highly prized items, as in my younger days I used to be one but for my stage in life I can no longer do it. 2. pro-rmt : The people feel like the time they invested entitles them to do what they wish regarding the items and characters that they created. I do not think there is anything work with people trying to make a buck, the problem with this is that this leads to farm shops being set up that seriously do put regular gamers hardcore and casual alike at a disadvantage to obatain highly valued items. I feel it is completely unfair to try to camp a mob against well known RMT characters to get an items, and unfortunetly this played perfectly into their hands. I'll use FFXI here as an example, I enjoyed playing that game with my friends but camping NMs became so tedius and frustrating that I gave up and felt it was worth it to buy gil allowing me just to purchase items so I could save my time and enjoy the game at high levels. I basicly comes down to the fact that I make enough money to say... 'hey me spending 3-4 hours hoping to get a claim on a mob and on top of that hoping it drops the item I wanted was not worth it'. If I spent 10 bucks to buy virtual money so i could buy an item, that would take me hours to camp and in RL I would make hundred of dollars in those hours it was logical for me to just click away and have fun. I would like for there to be a happy medium place in this whole argument as I have seen RMT in all the MMORPGS I have played even though I have supported them, it is not something I am proud of as all I want to do is have fun like the rest of you. In the end I do believe there will always be some sort of RMT in these types of games, the burden is really upon the designers on how deep it gets. I was impressed by the way Sqaure finally stood up and noticed the issue was bonkers and did something about it besides banning tons of players, they also made it so more casual player could get uber gears by doing 'assualt' missions to accumulate points to eventually earn gear without having to camp against others or invest outrageous amounts of time. Regardless of how this debate turns out I already got my pre-order copy of Vanguard........
Equinix
Equinix
Lets see if I can change your mind a little. First of all, I think that anyone that has played FFXI has experienced what your talking about with the NM thing, being monopolized and such. I've felt that way. But instead of going out and buying gil to get what I wanted, I found other ways of making gil, which is the whole point here.
Think about it really man, there are so many ways of making gil, in a fair way. You have beastmen seals, kindred seals, both very good ways of making lots of money. You can do ENM's, lvl a craft, fish, or maybe your NM is way overcamped, so go camp a NM with a drop of similar price, sell it and buy your item (ive done that many times). You could even be one of the farmers that kill the same mob over and over, i dont like doing that at all, but its a sure way to get you there adventually.
Really man, taking part of the action and doing these things is fun, Ive never done a BCNM that wasnt fun, even if i wiped. Also you get that sence of achievement like everyone has been saying. Most important tho you get to be involved in the game as you work your way up.. and there are 2 things that saying this makes me think of why you people cheat.
#1. If one way or thing dont work out for you people you give up and assume there is nothing else you can do and turn to cheating . Use your heads.
#2. Honestly, you said it yourself, the real reason you did this is because you wanted to skip the game to get to top lvl and do your business there. Its not how to play a game. I really feel this is the #1 reason people buy gold, because they just want to hit top lvl blah blah... and they "have" to be the first to do it, or "have" to do it the quickest, or "have" to be the richest, or "have" to be the most pimped out.
In ending, I feel that 2ndary market is horrible, it has potential to be ok, but the reasons especially in #2 there is why it will never be good. People will not just guy enough gold to maybe get one item that has been hard for them to get, they will continue to buy millions and millions of gold so they can have the best of everything and never have to work for gold again. If this was a single player game, do what you want, but its not, so you should be respectful of others. Just because your successful in RL dont give you a free pass to do anything you want, including taking part in ruining games. Think about that.
I'ma have to side with the gold seller. As gay as gold selling is, grinding for in-game lewtz is worse, and some people just can't be fucked to do it. What the real issue should be is this: why do companies keep making generic item-based games that people have to spend hours on to be competitive in? If people are BUYING items from a 3rd party instead of playing your game, that might be a hint (just maybe) that your game is a generic grindfest that people just aren't having much fun playing
SOE's exchange server really didn't do anything positive, just "legitimized" the Secondary Market as SOE wanted to make more money. The other servers still get ingame emails and tells for "buy eqgold.com" and reporting them does little, they'll just make a new toon.
The success of WoW has really brought this into the light. The buying/selling of ingame items has been around at least since EQ1 but now with 7mil+ subscribers even a small percentage of gold farmers is A Lot of people.
Problem is that once an account is banned the farmer just shrugs and creates a new account and continues along.
I also think it wouldn't matter how you redesigned a game. If it uses any kind of currency, gear or advancement the farmers will find a way to exploit it and make a buck. Just in games like WoW, EQ2, etc it's easier for them as they are games built around advancement through gear.
Originally posted by willgar Asked this question before but never an answer - with the majority of high end items in games like WOW etc typically bind-on-pickup in an dungeon requiring 40 people to complete. Or quest based / level based - what do gold buyers do with their ill-gotten gains? Come on, we wont judge you guys / girls - any gold buyers here brave enough to tell us about thier secret shame?
i buy gold on occasion, but just a little at a time. most game it's not possible to go buy the best weapon in the game and crush everybody else, that's just stupid. and gold buyers don't ruin the economy by going into a frenzy and buying everything. if you're spending real money on something, you're going to try and make it last as long as possible buying only necessary things (or a really really really fun thing, like an in-game parrot summoner). gold buying imo HELPS the economy, the more people buy things with real money...the cheaper they are in-game due to the fact you don't even have to pay in-game gold for them. same goes with characters, if a player sells his character it's because he is done with the game and if someone else buys his account then the game company continues to get a monthly payment instead of a cancelled account. who cares if the person that bought the account skipped past everything? sometimes it's a person that already has a max-lvl character but wants one of a different class without the grind, any way he still pays a monthly fee giving money to the company that makes the game.
In real life, stock brokers spend all day on the stock floor trading stocks just to sell them later for more money. In-game, some people spend all day farming a certain material or item just to sell it for gold later. What's the difference with a company farming gold to sell it for real money? i'm so sick of people complaining about the secondary market, it HELPS things. a couple of my friends also buy gold, you know what we do with it? 8/10 times we spend it on things to help our guildies instead of ourselves. why complain about someone that likes to use his real life money to help with in-game money? basically, you pay a monthly fee to play and enjoy an online game.....people who buy gold are only spending more money to get even more enjoyment out of the game. you don't see us saying "look at that idiot that farms for his gold" so why should non-gold buyers say "look at that idiot that bought the gold"?
Happy farming to ya!
Currently Playing: Tabula Rasa Gaming History: EQ, EQ2, SWG, EVE, Anarchy Online, CoX, GW, SRO, Rakion, Ryzom, WoW, Rappelz, Shadowbane, 9Dragons, DAoC, Dungeon Runners, DnD Online, Space Cowboy, LotRO, Vanguard, Fury, Hellgate Wanting to Play: WAR, TCoS, Darkfall, Aion
Pro rmt are the athiests giving facts? What facts are these? I have read numerous posts from people that have experienced effects of RMT on an MMORPG, I myself have posted a very well written posts explaining multiple ways of how RMT hurts a game. I have yet to see a valid point from Pro-rmt, let alone factual evidance that RMT is good, that has not been shown for the BS that it is.
I do understand there have been alot of people that have said things against RMT that where uneducated, but simply because you pick these points out and ignore all the valid ones does not mean you have won an argument. You have yet to address anything of intelligence thrown your way. Although I do give you the benifit of the doubt and can understand the possibility of you missing some of the better arguments due to the sheer volume of large posts.
IMO, I don't like the secondary market system if it is not done under specific guidelines. I.E. Station Exchange is perfectly fine, people play on the exchange server knowing that everyone around them is not authentic.
That's the magic word in my mind, Authentic...
I don't like the idea of playing with other people that didn't earn their level, or the gear that they have on their back. It makes me lose respect for that said person and inevitably, lands them on my ignore list. There are several reasons for this with the most important factor being that they didn't experience the game like a true level 60 (example) player did. In addition, as many people have already pointed out, it cripples the in-game economy.
Just like Brad noted in the debate, people do lose that sense of achievement if the people around them did not earn their status. Though, as long as the player doesn't admit to it and doesn't show that they lack knowledge in playing the character, it doesn't hurt anything.
Don't ask, Don't tell.
I also don't know how courts are able to rule in the favor of the player if it is the player who accepts the EULA every single time they log into the game. Seeing as it is a user agreement to play the game, a single statement that states that nothing on the account is tangible, would clear any misconceptions of the player "owning" anything.
Originally posted by DrowNoble SOE's exchange server really didn't do anything positive, just "legitimized" the Secondary Market as SOE wanted to make more money. The other servers still get ingame emails and tells for "buy eqgold.com" and reporting them does little, they'll just make a new toon. The success of WoW has really brought this into the light. The buying/selling of ingame items has been around at least since EQ1 but now with 7mil+ subscribers even a small percentage of gold farmers is A Lot of people. Problem is that once an account is banned the farmer just shrugs and creates a new account and continues along. I also think it wouldn't matter how you redesigned a game. If it uses any kind of currency, gear or advancement the farmers will find a way to exploit it and make a buck. Just in games like WoW, EQ2, etc it's easier for them as they are games built around advancement through gear.
Exactly. The spin put out by SOE about how they implemented Station Exchange to "protect the players" was such BS. If they were really concerned, they'd have started taking stronger measures to thwart it on the rest of the servers. They haven't and when last I checked, RMT is alive and well in EQII.
SOE is merely acting in character by getting their share of the pie.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Comments
Okay alott of reactions make sence but lets get real, in the real world we have what we call money balalance currency/gold, what if 20 % of all people over the world had their own money printing machine (sure some might have such machines but i don't think they will advertise for having them) i personaly think that it will disrupt the whole world econemy
Simple put secondary market totaly ruins games, no way in defending otherwise, no excuses like i can not keep up with my friends (ithats like my friends jump into a vulcano so should i kinda nonsens) It hurts the econemy of the game aswell some pleasure in the game, why, because those working to gain that gold or item for those secondary markets are those that do not bring you fun ingame.
Unfortunaly secondary market will contineu to grow cause the majority of wanna be gamers also is growing.
In my personal view a real gamer will never ever use a secondary market to aquire items/money ect no matter what, if the game is to hard or if his/her gameplaytime is to short a real gamer will find himself a nice other game to enjoy or deals with the fact he/she is falling behind from friends and might need to make new friends along the way, but if the other friends are getting higher and faster lvl'd then you should not be afraid of loosing them, but thats only if you really can call them friends
Interesting links pop up when I type in EULA and lawsuits..
http://www.eff.org/wp/eula.php
http://news.com.com/2100-1001-983988.html
Found this nice post on this thread: (Blizzard sent a letter to a secondary market website)
http://terranova.blogs.com/terra_nova/2004/12/one_lawsuit_to_.html
There are basically 4 approaches to stopping people from trading in virtual goods:
1) Copyright/IP. This collapses if it's recognised that what is being sold are not virtual goods but a virtual service. "I will pay you $400 for your hat of wizardry" is merely a shorthand for "I will pay you $400 to transfer the hat of wizardy in the inventory of the character controlled by you to the inventory of the character controlled by me". If Blizzard/Vivendi win the IP argument and their rights to ownership of virtual goods are recognised, all it will lead to is a change of words in the eBay auction proposal. If they lose the IP argument, it's open season on all virtual worlds...
2) EULA/ToS. This collapses if the people making the money are not signatories of the EULA/ToS. I guess some argument could be made about their having "agents" doing their work for them, but this doesn't even hold up well for mafia dons ordering hoods to kill people on their behalf, so I don't expect it would frighten off an auction house. What Vivendi could do is take a zero tolerance policy and go after every single person whom they can show to be breaking the EULA. This will mean a lot of bannings, but they'd eventually win.
3) Alter the code. Cap the amount of gold that characters can give away per month. Cap the number of objects that can have their ownership transferred from a character per month. Don't perform account or avatar transfers unless 3 from name, address and credit card details match. This would drive a gaping hole in the commodifiers' activities. However, Blizzard shouldn't have to do that. Creating virtual worlds is, at its heart, an artistic endeavour. Why should an artist who's doing nothing wrong have to change their art because people spoil it?
4) "It's just a game". The traditional way, as practiced in small-scale virtual worlds for 25 years. No EULA, no ToS, you can do whatever you like in the virtual world. So, however, can the developers, and they have access to the code. Thus, if they don't like what you're doing they can eliminate your goods, character, account - anything the code allows. It may be that this approach can't be scaled up, and it may be that consumer protection laws designed for non-game activities interfere if there's no EULA. In the end, though, it comes down to "it's my ball and if I don't want you to play with it then you can't". If that ability were ever successfully challenged, few companies would ever want to run a virtual world - their hands would be tied too tightly.
Given that having no EULA is probably not an option for a large-scale commercial virtual world at the moment, I'd have recommended Blizzard to go for 3) using data mining to find a reasonable capping level, backed up with a zero-tolerance attitude to put petty traders off scaling up their activities. The IP question does need answering, but I don't believe the answers are going to affect the outcome.
Richard"
<p align=center><a target=_blank href=http://www.nodiatis.com/personality.htm><img border=0 src=http://www.nodiatis.com/pub/20.jpg></a></p>;
A little fun for the discussion:
BTW, excellent topic!
The secondary market is wrong, you can try to justify it anyway you like, but you're using advantages outside the game to influence other players enjoyment (either directly or indirectly).
It's like playing a game of chess, with someone 'buying' an extra queen. It's against the rules and certainly the sprit of the game.
And don't give me that 'free-market' crap. Becuase thats what it is. Even free markets have rules to protect people. Having a secondary market is like someone printing free money in real life, and unless I'm mistaken, that's illegal. Sure one person doing it isn't going to have much of an impact, but enough people ruins the economy, and if you don't understand that, you have no grasp of simple economics.
These are games, games have rules, and everyone needs to play with the same rules.
Another issue about the Secondary Market is that the American Gov't is actually considering taxing ingame gold since it has real world value. Yes folks, due to these farmers breaking the EULA and then trying to duck and hide under legal mumbo-jumbo I may have to pay sales tax every time I earn gold ingame. I am not making this up.
I've said it before in other posts but I guess I have to repeat it here. One of the problems with this issue is the games are international. So what if USA makes it 100% illegal to buy/sell ingame items, that means nothing to a Chinese guy selling something to his friend in Germany. Would have to get some kind of international law so that they could prosecute the violaters where ever they are.
Too often the farmer tries to twist words and say "well I'm not actually selling the Sword of Uberness, I'm just charging someone to transfer it from Account A to Account B". Now, put that argument into a real world situation: "no officer I'm not actually selling the heroine, I'm just transferring it from Dealer A to Dealer B". The realization is that fudging the semantics doesn't change that act.
SOE having an exchange service has also compounded the issue. Now the farmers feel the Secondary Market has be validated by SOE hopping on the bus to make a buck.
I played EQ For Years, and one thing that pissed me off is when I knew that someone "Ebayed" Someone wqho did not earn their gear, or character. Even if these secondary markets help people compete, it is only because they cant compete in the first place. In these games, I play them for accomplishments, and what brad said about these markets destroying communities, is so True!.
JUST SAY NO, Earn it yourself.
If I am speeding.. I'm speeding. And if I'm stopped and given a ticket - it's because I was clearly exceeding the speeds marked on the speed-signs. I am going to shut up, acknowledge that I was breaking a law and accept the ticket. I'm not claiming to have a right to speed. I'm not going to pull a bunch of neat-sounding but ultimately pointless rationales or justifications out of thin air to try to argue why it was okay for me to be speeding. The cop or the judge is not going to care what my reasons are - even if I convince him that I didn't see the speed sign and didn't know it was 60. The speed was set at 60, I was going 70. I was breaking the law. I was caught. I will be penalized. Period. End of discussion.
Same with the EULA and RMT. Whether you've read it or not, whether you choose to acknowledge it or not, no matter what clever-sounding rebuttals you pose - you are agreeing to not partake in RMT, or any other prohibited activities while you are playing the *company's* - not your - game. If you are caught, you are penalized, either by suspension or complete banning. If it happens, shut up, acknowledge that you were busted and accept it. Or.. don't do it in the first place.
I'm not even going to dignify your war on drugs example with a response - because it's just ridiculous and pointless to do so. The speeding analogy covers it perfectly.
And, I guess this will just never sink in with some people. I don't have to "preach"... It is, however, against the EULA you are agreeing to when you play the game. The facts stand for themselves... Square Enix banned around 1,100 accounts in FFXI in November *alone* because they were partaking in RMT and other related activities. They don't do it at random. They don't pick and choose which subscribers they don't like. They do it because the players are violating the terms of their EULA. There is no arguing this. There is no debating this. It *happens* all the time. All the theories and beliefs and arguments under the sun have no weight against it. You are going to be banned all the same.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
As for the Gov't charging tax.. hey... so long as it's happening and a business is making money.. of course they want their cut.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Interesting debate presented here. I haven't read through all pages of the replies, so am uncertain whether it has been mentioned before. To me, buying in-game items, power-leveling, accounts or whatever with real life cash is the MMOG equivalent of god mode/cheat codes. One could also make the comparison to illegal performance-enhancing drugs in athletes. Does an athlete truly deserve a medal or record if he or she didn't have the talent, physical prowess or time to do it on their own without the use of performance-enhancing drugs?
Also, Mr. Kipe stated something to the effect that if what secondary market companies are doing is illegal, there would have been lawsuits against them. Interesting that most secondary market companies (from what I can tell) are off-shore from the US (even though they may be American owners) precisely to avoid lawsuits based on breaking of the EULAs. If these secondary market companies truly thought what they were doing is right, they'd form open, same country companies as the games are based in and relish the opportunity to prove once and for all they are legitimate.
Mirrim
Chanter, Spatalos Server
People smoke crack cocain, people shoot up heroin, people shoot people in the head, people rob businesses, people kidnap people, people do alot of stupid shit, this does not mean we should make it legal or accept it.
As for the ones that simply dont care, go buy a ps3 an x box and a wii, this way you can spend all your money and the rest of us can still enjoy A GAME MANY OTHERS PLAY AT THE SAME TIME.
Secondary markets are very bad for an MMO. A few points:
In the past 5 mo. playing EQ2 I have gotten numerous tells about gold selling sites (this sucked because I had to spend a few mins. reporting it
). Now I'm getting in-game mail for these sites. Because of this It's not suprising that prices have gone drastically up for goods on the market.
Secondary markets are bad because of the people and/or actions that it brings. If it was a case of one guy having too many nice items selling them to someone working 60 hours a week that would be fine. When you have people just trying to make money by node stealing or using bots to block out content for days it has gone too far.
Someone who got a paycheck running a "gateway" from gold to money and back again is going to defend it. That's no suprise. People who want to enjoy a game without it being cheapened by secondary markets will want them routed.
Just not worth my time anymore.
The arguments made by Mr. Kipe are inherently flawed. Take his boat analogy. If you look at it from the point of the developers being the ones building the boat, then it's like someone taking the boat out for a spin, selling it to their friend, and pocketing the money... all without permission.
In the vein it was intended, other players own boats, it's still flawed; and this was the point Brad was trying to make. If it were a boat show, then fine... go look at the pretty boats. But RMT is more analogous to other people ramming their boats into yours because they don't know how to work them.
The thing that bothers me the most about RMT believers is their propensity to feel they have some right to do what they do. Going back to the boat analogy... it's on parallel with people feeling they have the right to buy a stolen boat because someone is willing to sell it to them. RMT sites have no right to sell the goods they offer... they're stolen!
Of course, I'm a believer that this whole thing is quite avoidable with proper rules within the game.
1) Stop off-line selling. #1 economy killer in an MMO is off-line traders. You make the person have to be there, have to advertise, a-la EQ1 before the bazaar. I always felt trading and such was more interesting when there was more interaction.
2) Track all avenues of revenue. You can then data mine to look for anomalies in where people are getting their gold. There are ways to do this... they may be tricky and somewhat complex, but there are ways.
3) By far the best way to police this issue is community. When people play as much for the community as for the game experience they're much less likely to buy things to achieve their goals.
4) Lastly, make a game worth playing. If gold can only get you so far, it will discourage the buying because it doesn't really put you that far ahead. Additionally, if getting that gold is a difficult/challenging prospect to begin with, then people will be less likely to part with their reserves. As far as character sells, those typically happen when a person is tired of the game.
I know people who participate in this are not going away anytime soon. Shaming, berating, pleading, etc. amounts to little with these people because they don't have enough integrity to feel what they're doing is wrong. If you can bring the focus on the game and the community within the game instead of on the character and his ill-gotten booty (or his ill-booten gotty), then you'll have a better game all-around while weakening the dregs of the MMO community.
This is like listening to an Atheist and a Christian argue back and forth.
The athetist (Pro RMT) keeps pointing out factual data suporting his point and all the Christian (Anti-RMT) can do is make stereotypically uneducated, broad and ignorant phrases such as "It's wrong" without having to back it up with any proof other than citing the popular concensus.
The RMT is the future of mmorpgs. If anyone reading lacks the foresight to agree with that statement then feel free to ease back into your comfortable little rut of understanding that the world is black and white right and wrong.
"Buying an extra queen?"
"Printing Money"?
Probably the worst analogies I've heard in months.
If you occasionally speed to work, you're a criminal and you're putting lives at risk.
Stick that black and whie tobacco in your pipe and smoke it.
I personally have been on both sides of the fence of this argument, I have invested many of my RL hours into games much to my woman's dismay as well I have been a RMT customer. I have grown up a video game addict since atari 2600 on and got hooked on mmoprgs since the OG EQ. Currently I am a working professional that makes a pretty decent living I have two little kids and a good social life. I dedacate my most of my gaming to the weekdays as when I get home from work I like a bit of escape for a few hours. This being said I kind of put my gamer ranking in between casual and hardcore (as I have been known to waste a few sick days playing). Here is my viewpoint for both sides of the debate:
1. anti-rmt : The people who side with this pretty much are battling a war that deals with time factor and they feel those who can spend the most amount of time per day playing should have the uberest gears. But since alot of people do not have the amount of free time to go on the necessary amount of raids to join a lotting group (which turns out to be a bit of a pyramid scheme as the bottom members help the top members get their gear first). I have nothing against people who have the time and put the effort in to get the highly prized items, as in my younger days I used to be one but for my stage in life I can no longer do it.
2. pro-rmt : The people feel like the time they invested entitles them to do what they wish regarding the items and characters that they created. I do not think there is anything work with people trying to make a buck, the problem with this is that this leads to farm shops being set up that seriously do put regular gamers hardcore and casual alike at a disadvantage to obatain highly valued items. I feel it is completely unfair to try to camp a mob against well known RMT characters to get an items, and unfortunetly this played perfectly into their hands. I'll use FFXI here as an example, I enjoyed playing that game with my friends but camping NMs became so tedius and frustrating that I gave up and felt it was worth it to buy gil allowing me just to purchase items so I could save my time and enjoy the game at high levels. I basicly comes down to the fact that I make enough money to say... 'hey me spending 3-4 hours hoping to get a claim on a mob and on top of that hoping it drops the item I wanted was not worth it'. If I spent 10 bucks to buy virtual money so i could buy an item, that would take me hours to camp and in RL I would make hundred of dollars in those hours it was logical for me to just click away and have fun.
I would like for there to be a happy medium place in this whole argument as I have seen RMT in all the MMORPGS I have played even though I have supported them, it is not something I am proud of as all I want to do is have fun like the rest of you. In the end I do believe there will always be some sort of RMT in these types of games, the burden is really upon the designers on how deep it gets. I was impressed by the way Sqaure finally stood up and noticed the issue was bonkers and did something about it besides banning tons of players, they also made it so more casual player could get uber gears by doing 'assualt' missions to accumulate points to eventually earn gear without having to camp against others or invest outrageous amounts of time. Regardless of how this debate turns out I already got my pre-order copy of Vanguard........
Equinix
Long debate , no really good answer on how to have a real solution to content RMT players and RP players but may be RMT are not the head of the problem. I think the problem of RMT is this one : why a gamer pay to get an account or an item ? All here have an answer and its most the same : chalenging. In the last 5 years, a world contest has grown : witch has the biggest sword or killed the XXX level boss of the game ! So people now pay to have the biggest of the biggest. I remember some peoples playing EQ in his first age who didnt care of theses things and played with fun. For my part the responsability of the RMT in the MMO games is both the part of players and dev. I explain my opinion in a simple phrase : what idea really new has come in our MMORPGs since the first release of UO/EQ/AO ? What new contest do we had even killing the biggest mob and getting the best stuff ? Perhaps i am wrong but i really think we need new heads to enjoy players. I am perhaps a dreamer but i really hope a new rpg with new ideas and not only heading on "i have the best thing". I want fun, I want good stories, I want to be interested and not become a gamebot in front of a PC. To finish, i remember the first time i logged into EQ some years ago : there was an ambiance really incredible with music and graphics, i fell small, young and when i attacked my first bat it was a big first fight. And why i remember this loggin after 6 years : EQ at this time had a soul, a marvelous soul.
Myrr the gnome
Oh really.
Are you completely brain-dead? No proof other than citing the popular consensus? Oh oh.. you mean those whose opinions don't suit your own. I get it. Umm.. sorry you're wrong. Some others and myself speak on personal experience with the changes in a MMO that increasing RMT over time has introduced. I have given specific examples in an earlier post in this thread. Of course, people like yourself who don't want to accept hard evidence will simply overlook it or dismiss it - since it doesn't serve your own personal agenda.
I hate to break it to you - but the real problems with RMT go way beyond any "popular consensus". They are problems resulting from RMT/farming/botting which the game designers/support teams themselves deal with on a daily basis and see their repurcussions at a much higher level than you or I or any other player. As a result, they recognize that RMT throws things way out of whack and makes the game unplayable for many people. In a game where every player is provided the same tools and means to achieve a given goal as every other player - a balanced playing field if you will - RMT introduces an unintended and unwelcomed element that completely throws that all off-balance and makes the game enjoyable for only a portion of the population, while making it harder for everyone else. It becomes an uneven playing field.
These are the findings of the game's support teams themselves, through data gathered relating to all players across all servers... not just one person on one server who feels they're somehow more priviledged than everyone else. If you honestly believe you have a better grip or overview on how things are affected in their game by any given player activity than they do, you are severely delusional. The developers have hard numbers which support the attitude I and others against RMT base their arguments on. The Pro-RMT people have home-brewed theories and self-edifying analogies based only upon your own self-serving opinions. The fact that RMT is a bannable offense clearly shows that reality doesn't share the pro-RMT point-of-view.
Another point against your "popular consensus" theory.. do some research. Go to different games' websites and do some reading, you'll find information regarding their stance on RMT and how they deal with it. Here's a direct quote from Play Online, which they post once a month... It relates to the usage of third-party programs and such - but still manages to remove 10s of billions of gil from the economy across all servers.. Now, guess where the vast majority of that gil and 3rd-party software usage comes from? DING! RMT farmers - the people you in-turn buy your way through the game from!
"We would like to remind players that the use of third party programs adversely affect game balance. Along with affecting game balance, other risks can arise from use of third party programs that are not immediately obvious such as possibly introducing damaging viruses and compromising the security of private account details. Usage of third-party tools will not be tolerated within FINAL FANTASY XI and we will continue to severely penalize any players found to be in violation of the PlayOnline Member Agreement.
During this round of account terminations, we mainly focused on RMT operations that were active within Japan. However, rest assured that our continued investigations encompass all regions where RMT activity is occurring.
As we continue to ensure a fun and balanced environment for FINAL FANTASY XI, we hope that our players enjoy the game as it was intended and take care to avoid involvement in activities that violate the PlayOnline Member Agreement."
Here's a link to the original article if you'd like to see the actual numbers:
http://www.playonline.com/ff11us/polnews/news9096.shtml
In particular, note the second paragraph... notice what they say, "we mainly focused on RMT operations... However, rest assured that our continued investigations encompass all regions where RMT activity is occurring." Gee... I wonder what that could mean? That RMT is okee-dokey and honky-dory? Wrong. It's prohibited. And, because by now I'm fairly certain most, if not all, the pro-RMT posters in this thread will not comprehend the simple connection here... I'll spell it out for you.
The RMT farmers are using these prohibited 3rd party programs/hacks to obtain the gil you are buying. They automate their movements, they scan the game's memory and auto-target/claim high-demand mobs giving them a ridiculous and unfair advantage over legitimate players. By this they make the game completely imbalanced against people actually playing the game the way it was designed to be played. This alone is reason to deal with them. But it doesn't stop there... They use 3rd party apps and related tactics to monopolize named creatures and valuable items, shoving out legitimate players from *playing* the game they are paying for, driving the prices up and making many things unattainable to anyone but those willing to buy their in-game money. To be clear: the affect RMT has on a game is *not* only in that it allows you to buy things that others have to work for - it is not so simple, nor puritan an issue. There are a number of peripheral effects that it has as well - none of which are good. All of which need to be dealt with. And, no, it doesn't mean that the developers made a mistake by not designing RMT into the game and should alter it to allow both - another ridiculous rebuttal I've seen.
To point out another simple truth that seems to completely go over some people's (pro-RMT's) heads: MMORPGs are games designed to be played and enjoyed by people within the parameters set forth in the game by the developers. They are not market-places for subscribers to put up a store-front and run their own business selling money/item/account for real-world money through eBay, IGE and other sites completely unrelated and unsupported by the developer/publisher. If you disagree, please provide me the official documentation that states where I'm wrong. Go ahead. I can wait. Seriously. If so many of you RMT'ers feel so completely justified and righteous in what you're doing, it must mean you've got some kind of leg to stand on beyond your own personal opinions. So please, let's see it. I can back myself and everything I say up with hard proof. Can you?
If that comes across as arrogant, well, then maybe it is. And I really don't care if pro-RMT types are offended by it, because I am offended by your lazy, self-centered, self-serving, dishonest attitudes, that you believe the rules don't apply to you and you can just do as you please, indifferent to how it - demonstrably - affects others. Except for a few notable exceptions, MMOs are not designed with RMT in mind. They have terms prohibiting RMT and related activity in their Terms of Use/EULAs. They outwardly express that they prohibit and will penalize anyone caught engaging in RMT And related activity - such as the FFXI example above. And finally, they regularly and openly follow through on that by actively banning accounts of people for violating those terms. Seriously... How much more proof could you pro-RMTers need to finally get it into your heads that you are *wrong*?
So.. by all means, please keep arguing your ridiculous rebuttals and theories and analogies in favor it all you want. In fact, when you decide to contact the game company with all that drivel after they've banned you - please come and post the results here. I would *love* to see their response - or non-response to it.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Equinix
Lets see if I can change your mind a little. First of all, I think that anyone that has played FFXI has experienced what your talking about with the NM thing, being monopolized and such. I've felt that way. But instead of going out and buying gil to get what I wanted, I found other ways of making gil, which is the whole point here.
Think about it really man, there are so many ways of making gil, in a fair way. You have beastmen seals, kindred seals, both very good ways of making lots of money. You can do ENM's, lvl a craft, fish, or maybe your NM is way overcamped, so go camp a NM with a drop of similar price, sell it and buy your item (ive done that many times). You could even be one of the farmers that kill the same mob over and over, i dont like doing that at all, but its a sure way to get you there adventually.
Really man, taking part of the action and doing these things is fun, Ive never done a BCNM that wasnt fun, even if i wiped. Also you get that sence of achievement like everyone has been saying. Most important tho you get to be involved in the game as you work your way up.. and there are 2 things that saying this makes me think of why you people cheat.
#1. If one way or thing dont work out for you people you give up and assume there is nothing else you can do and turn to cheating
. Use your heads.
#2. Honestly, you said it yourself, the real reason you did this is because you wanted to skip the game to get to top lvl and do your business there. Its not how to play a game. I really feel this is the #1 reason people buy gold, because they just want to hit top lvl blah blah... and they "have" to be the first to do it, or "have" to do it the quickest, or "have" to be the richest, or "have" to be the most pimped out.
In ending, I feel that 2ndary market is horrible, it has potential to be ok, but the reasons especially in #2 there is why it will never be good. People will not just guy enough gold to maybe get one item that has been hard for them to get, they will continue to buy millions and millions of gold so they can have the best of everything and never have to work for gold again. If this was a single player game, do what you want, but its not, so you should be respectful of others. Just because your successful in RL dont give you a free pass to do anything you want, including taking part in ruining games. Think about that.
SOE's exchange server really didn't do anything positive, just "legitimized" the Secondary Market as SOE wanted to make more money. The other servers still get ingame emails and tells for "buy eqgold.com" and reporting them does little, they'll just make a new toon.
The success of WoW has really brought this into the light. The buying/selling of ingame items has been around at least since EQ1 but now with 7mil+ subscribers even a small percentage of gold farmers is A Lot of people.
Problem is that once an account is banned the farmer just shrugs and creates a new account and continues along.
I also think it wouldn't matter how you redesigned a game. If it uses any kind of currency, gear or advancement the farmers will find a way to exploit it and make a buck. Just in games like WoW, EQ2, etc it's easier for them as they are games built around advancement through gear.
In real life, stock brokers spend all day on the stock floor trading stocks just to sell them later for more money. In-game, some people spend all day farming a certain material or item just to sell it for gold later. What's the difference with a company farming gold to sell it for real money? i'm so sick of people complaining about the secondary market, it HELPS things. a couple of my friends also buy gold, you know what we do with it? 8/10 times we spend it on things to help our guildies instead of ourselves. why complain about someone that likes to use his real life money to help with in-game money? basically, you pay a monthly fee to play and enjoy an online game.....people who buy gold are only spending more money to get even more enjoyment out of the game. you don't see us saying "look at that idiot that farms for his gold" so why should non-gold buyers say "look at that idiot that bought the gold"?
Happy farming to ya!
Currently Playing: Tabula Rasa
Gaming History: EQ, EQ2, SWG, EVE, Anarchy Online, CoX, GW, SRO, Rakion, Ryzom, WoW, Rappelz, Shadowbane, 9Dragons, DAoC, Dungeon Runners, DnD Online, Space Cowboy, LotRO, Vanguard, Fury, Hellgate
Wanting to Play: WAR, TCoS, Darkfall, Aion
Pro rmt are the athiests giving facts? What facts are these? I have read numerous posts from people that have experienced effects of RMT on an MMORPG, I myself have posted a very well written posts explaining multiple ways of how RMT hurts a game. I have yet to see a valid point from Pro-rmt, let alone factual evidance that RMT is good, that has not been shown for the BS that it is.
I do understand there have been alot of people that have said things against RMT that where uneducated, but simply because you pick these points out and ignore all the valid ones does not mean you have won an argument. You have yet to address anything of intelligence thrown your way. Although I do give you the benifit of the doubt and can understand the possibility of you missing some of the better arguments due to the sheer volume of large posts.
That's the magic word in my mind, Authentic...
I don't like the idea of playing with other people that didn't earn their level, or the gear that they have on their back. It makes me lose respect for that said person and inevitably, lands them on my ignore list. There are several reasons for this with the most important factor being that they didn't experience the game like a true level 60 (example) player did. In addition, as many people have already pointed out, it cripples the in-game economy.
Just like Brad noted in the debate, people do lose that sense of achievement if the people around them did not earn their status. Though, as long as the player doesn't admit to it and doesn't show that they lack knowledge in playing the character, it doesn't hurt anything.
Don't ask, Don't tell.
I also don't know how courts are able to rule in the favor of the player if it is the player who accepts the EULA every single time they log into the game. Seeing as it is a user agreement to play the game, a single statement that states that nothing on the account is tangible, would clear any misconceptions of the player "owning" anything.
Regards,
http://twitter.com/xmcgraw
SOE is merely acting in character by getting their share of the pie.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops