Post us only 1 example from anyone on these boards saying that 1, LOTRO will be the second WOW, or 2, it will be a smashing, extraordinary hit, or 3, it will sell over a million copies in 6 months.... These things exist only in your head, and it is handy when you need something to back up your pointless arguments. DB
Hrm, lets see - I allready posted one interview with Turbine's top guy commenting about the game, humerously or not, in WoW-like terms. Certainly the message of his comment was that the game was off to some phenom start. Many other comments such as the 600k pre-order stuff and the biggest beta ever stuff from turbine are well known. As for comments around here, I found to that where still in my links, there where lots more but the search function for MMORPG is pretty rudementary.
Many other threads where all over these boards and inside all sorts of discussion of LotRO the WOW killer crazy predicitions where common. Go to the LotRO boards and it was even more insane. Look, we can debate this endlessly and never agree - fans will argue with emotion and refuse to admit what I have been saying from the get go in this thread that LotRO is just not the major sensation it was made out to be by turbine and th efans here and elsewhere. 172k NA sales shows that to be true. Does it mean the game is a fialure, no - but I never said it was - I simply said it was clearly not waht it has been hyped up to be by Turbine and the fans.
Now, that being said, I do believe you could judge the circumstances of no competing releases, a major IP such as LotR, and the obvious attention the game has gotten coupled with the sales numbers we know and say that alltogether it is not good. that much is subjective, and subjectively I think it is fair to say it hasn't done good considering those things - but you cannot argue that it wasn't put out there as a WoW killer (either by fans or Turbine) and that in the veign it seems to be failing miserably.
I'm honestly a bit surprised that the box sales were only 170K in NA in the first nine weeks. Even when we add in Europe and Australia, I would say that means at best 400K total box sales. I was expecting the game to settle in somewhere between EQ II and WoW, but much closer to the EQ II end of things (maybe 500K subs). Looks more like it's settling in between near utter failures (such as MXO) and EQ II.
I haven't seen populations drop off much on my server. You can see how often everyone on your friends list logs, and about half of the players I met at launch are still on (and by that i mean they log at least once every day or two, even if we don't happen to overlap). Doing out of my ass math, that means the true number of current subs would range from 2.3 K (100 players per server, obviously too low) to 300K (75% retention from launch, obviously too high). We'll split the difference and call it roughly 150K including NA, Europe, and Australia. Far from a dismal failure, but less than I was expecting personally. It also indicates that certain statements from Turbine have been, at best, misleading.
That said, I will be interested to see what the numbers look like when we get some real ones and can all stop using sphincter based methods of estimation. As an aside, If 170 K was enough sales over nine weeks to stay in the top ten for as long as LoTRO did, PC gaming is in a sad state.
I don't want to write this, and you don't want to read it. But now it's too late for both of us.
I'm honestly a bit surprised that the box sales were only 170K in NA in the first nine weeks. Even when we add in Europe and Australia, I would say that means at best 400K total box sales. I was expecting the game to settle in somewhere between EQ II and WoW, but much closer to the EQ II end of things (maybe 500K subs). Looks more like it's settling in between near utter failures (such as MXO) and EQ II. I haven't seen populations drop off much on my server. You can see how often everyone on your friends list logs, and about half of the players I met at launch are still on (and by that i mean they log at least once every day or two, even if we don't happen to overlap). Doing out of my ass math, that means the true number of current subs would range from 2.1 K (100 players per server, obviously too low) to 300K (75% retention from launch, obviously too high). We'll split the difference and call it roughly 150K including NA, Europe, and Australia. Far from a dismal failure, but less than I was expecting personally. It also indicates that certain statements from Turbine have been, at best, misleading. That said, I will be interested to see what the numbers look like when we get some real ones and can all stop using sphincter based methods of estimation. As an aside, If 170 K was enough sales over nine weeks to stay in the top ten for as long as LoTRO did, PC gaming is in a sad state.
Very well said I think.
And yes, PC gaming is in a sad state which is part of why I interpreted the number more harshly than I otherwise might. With nearly no big title releases to compete with I would have expected far better. Everything in PC gaming is on hold while vista/DX10 sorts out (seemingly the end of this year).
I mean other than WoW which really has a life of it's own what MMORPG can you name that has done better ? Please post some links and educate me. I mean if you really expect any MMMORPG to equal or beat WoW's numbers then you are the most optimistic( being nice here) person on the internet.
ou got links to prove that Gules or aer you just making more stuff up and trying to twist figures?
So what you are saying is that those games sold more than 172K copies in 9 weeks just in N America?Show me the figures Gules. I bet you cannot show me where any other MMORPG except WoW that sold more than 172K copies in the N American market in the first 9 weeks.Post links to legit prove it, other wise you are just pulling your "facts" out of thin air.
uhm.. well actually, even Vanguard beat that.
It had 300K preorders worldwide from EB/Gamespot
EQ2 sold 86,000 on it's first day, Ihave no idea what quarter numbers were.
But no matter, because no matter how much you spin it, 172K in 9 weeks is not very good. Not bad, but sure as hell not good.
...aside from how funny the game talked about in that thread is note how in the thread obviously jokingly calling it the "WoW killer" people start chiming in defending WoW as unbeatable and/or beatable. It is as hilarious as the silly game.
Believe what you want man, you are reasoning with your emotions and not your brain. People tried to point out that it is not that big a sales number but you don't want to believe it so go ahead with whatever you want to think. I believe the number and arguments I have made show LotRO to be an average game at best in terms of sales/popularity, in no way is it off to be the WoW killer million sub game so many have claimed around here and that is the real point.
I think we're seeing a bit of transference here in that first sentence.
We've already posted SONY's Press Release that says Vanguard "launched in late January of this year and has sold nearly 200,000 retail and digital units worldwide." Vanguard did not even sell 200k units in over three months. Unless you are now saying that SOE is lying, we'll file that under the "fact" column.
So your numbers are wrong on all counts.
- You say Vanguard's total is for one month when it is for over three.
- You quote it as 200k when SOE themselves stated in their release it is under 200k
- You quote only the NA sales for LOTRO, and you completely ignore both
a) that they do not include July.
b) that there were significant EU sales as well. By your statements, you do not feel that even 25k boxes were sold in EU and Japan combined.
As long as you continue to dismiss the given facts here, it's hard to really move forward in this discussion.
You are reasoning with your emotions and not with the facts.
-- Whammy - a 64x64 miniRPG - RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right? - FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
I had always heard it was 200k for VG in the first month, and then straight into the crapper form there.
Regardless, LotROs 172k in NA over the first quarter when it is a major IP, major launch in a vacuum with so many MMO players looking for something new is clearly not great and I think a stretch to even say it is good - whatever your analysis of the 172k it is absolutely NOT WoW like numbers which so many predicted or otherwise hinted at.
I had always heard it was 200k for VG in the first month, and then straight into the crapper form there.
Regardless, LotROs 172k in NA over the first quarter when it is a major IP, major launch in a vacuum with so many MMO players looking for something new is clearly not great and I think a stretch to even say it is good - whatever your analysis of the 172k it is absolutely NOT WoW like numbers which so many predicted or otherwise hinted at.
It was 200K worldwide for Vanguardduring their first quarter. Not that it matters as far as Vanguards time, I doubt you could have gave away a copy after the first week or so. The 179K was just LoTRO's N America sales for 9 weeks ( April 24 - June 30 ), not even a full quarter. Another way of looking at it was LoTRO sold twice as many copies worldwide as Vanguard did in half the time . LoTRO is still selling quite well and still in Amazon's top 100 list.
Who was it claimed WoW like numbers? Do you have a link ?
Exactly what does it matter about VG anyways, it was only ever mentioned as a comparison but even if the numbers mentioned by others for VG are off it doesn't make the LotRO numbers we know any better. Links? I have posted several links - I find your constant asking for links to things we all heard people say just a red herring to avoid the reality.
Go on with your belief the LotRO is some smash hit, I think it is pretty clear to anyone not emotionally attached to the game as a fan that it was anything but great and possibly even not so good. I am not sure which I find more sad - the way you fanboys are incapable of seeing reality or the way you can't just own own to a bit of overexuberance in forcasting massive succes for the game.
I find your constant asking for links to things we all heard people say just a red herring to avoid the reality.
I find your making claims without backing it up with prrof even more amusing What's the old saying? Oh yeah, if you ain't got a pic or a link it never happened.
I find your constant asking for links to things we all heard people say just a red herring to avoid the reality.
I find your making claims without backing it up with prrof even more amusing What's the old saying? Oh yeah, if you ain't got a pic or a link it never happened.
I suppose people who have no knowledge themselves find that true, and those to taxed to be able to read the links posted in this thread allready.
When a game releases on april 24, technically the second business quarter for most businesses, it can ONLY have second quarter sales.
There are no first quarter sales because the game didn't exist in a state that it could be sold during the first quarter.
Everyone else,
172k doesn't include sales for the previous month. That's assuming that Midway or Turbine doesn't have some goofy quarter system that puts the month of July in the 4th quarter, something I don't think any company does.
You can't determine success off a single quarter.
And box sales say nothing about sub rates.
Preorders don't count as a sale unless the person that preordered actually buys the game.
For a 3 month period 172k isn't bad, but it's not exactly a model of smashing success either. As far as video games go today, It's barely made it to mediocre.
It's a western developed game, and the, "that's not EU sales" arguement really doesn't matter. The trend isn't that western games do better in EU, it's that they do worse. Especially in the Asian market. Also, there are more people in all of EU then in the US. Even if it sells just as many boxes in EU as it did in the US, you can't call that a success. Most companies wouldn't call it one either. It's not bad, but it's not a success. You're talking about hundreds of millions of potential customers, and if you can only nab 100k+ you aren't exactly sitting pretty.
Like someone else said. WoW isn't typical, it's a phenomenon. What WoW has managed to do isn't normal, and may never be seen again. No one single company is likely ever going to match Blizzard, it's going to be a bunch of companies that bring the king down, and that isn't happening this year or next. Nor does it matter. If the games running, you like it, have people to play with, then that's all that matters. Sub numbers and sales mean nothing if you enjoy the game you're playing at any given time.
Also, I to find it funny that Jackdog, one of the most vocal anti-VG guys around, bashed Sigil for selling 250k boxes in a single month, and LoTRO only did half that in three months, and likely only sold slightly more worlwide. Kind of funny if you ask me.
Hey Jackdog, When a game releases on april 24, technically the second business quarter for most businesses, it can ONLY have second quarter sales. There are no first quarter sales because the game didn't exist in a state that it could be sold during the first quarter. Everyone else, 172k doesn't include sales for the previous month. That's assuming that Midway or Turbine doesn't have some goofy quarter system that puts the month of July in the 4th quarter, something I don't think any company does. You can't determine success off a single quarter. And box sales say nothing about sub rates. Preorders don't count as a sale unless the person that preordered actually buys the game. For a 3 month period 172k isn't bad, but it's not exactly a model of smashing success either. As far as video games go today, It's barely made it to mediocre. It's a western developed game, and the, "that's not EU sales" arguement really doesn't matter. The trend isn't that western games do better in EU, it's that they do worse. Especially in the Asian market. Also, there are more people in all of EU then in the US. Even if it sells just as many boxes in EU as it did in the US, you can't call that a success. Most companies wouldn't call it one either. It's not bad, but it's not a success. You're talking about hundreds of millions of potential customers, and if you can only nab 100k+ you aren't exactly sitting pretty. Like someone else said. WoW isn't typical, it's a phenomenon. What WoW has managed to do isn't normal, and may never be seen again. No one single company is likely ever going to match Blizzard, it's going to be a bunch of companies that bring the king down, and that isn't happening this year or next. Nor does it matter. If the games running, you like it, have people to play with, then that's all that matters. Sub numbers and sales mean nothing if you enjoy the game you're playing at any given time. Also, I to find it funny that Jackdog, one of the most vocal anti-VG guys around, bashed Sigil for selling 250k boxes in a single month, and LoTRO only did half that in three months, and likely only sold slightly more worlwide. Kind of funny if you ask me.
Wait... didn't Vanguard have around 200k? Hopefully they will be able to keep their subscribers.
Vanguard sold 250k boxes which dropped to 90k active accounts in a month after the launch of the game.
As in Vanguard sold 250k copies of the game within the first weeks of launch day.
So LotRO hasn't done all that good considering it has a much stronger IP.
My guess (though I like the game, personally)...
Despite the franchise.. it's really just more Elves, Dwarves and what-not wrapped up in a more famous skin... The novelty wears off after a time. Plus, it really doesn't innovate all *that* much on the genre. The music system is cool and it has a nice graphics engine (I'm a fan of the AC2 engine personally... but then, I'm a fan of AC2... go figure), but there's nothing "OMG Ground-breaking" about it.
Perhaps had it been released back when trilogy was still really fresh in everyone's minds, it might have had a stronger launch. At least that's my armchair opinion, and it's not even really that great of an armchair.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
for now i like LOTRO better then WOW for 1 reason. Community! WOW is a great game but it's community ----> suxorz! unfortunately. and in LOTRO i fell more comfortable, because i like PvE MMO's better
as for sales, well this is pretty new MMO, w8 for more months to come. Vanguard sales were ok in first few weeks, but look it now. LOTRO will sell more and more because Turbine are making this game more and more playable and polished.
Hey Jackdog, When a game releases on april 24, technically the second business quarter for most businesses, it can ONLY have second quarter sales. There are no first quarter sales because the game didn't exist in a state that it could be sold during the first quarter.
Umm where did I ever say anything about first quarter sales? My point has been all along in this thread is that the 179K was the N American box sales for the 9 weeks between April 24 and June 30.
As far as the European numbers, if are going to compare Vanguard's world wide sales to LoTRO you also need to use LoTRO's world wide sales. Not just the N American figures. Using Vanguard's overall sales to a partial quarters of LoTRO's N American sales to try and prove a point as some in this thread have attempted is flawed logic.
And yes I was a Vanguard basher, SOE needs to quit releasing half finished buggy games. I was also a Mourning basher and a Dark and Light basher. You want to defend those pieces of garbage also.
But you are righ Mike this horse has decomposed and the thread really needs to be locked and die a decent death. I just hate to be misquoted and hate even more when figures are twisted in order to create spin.
Also, I to find it funny that Jackdog, one of the most vocal anti-VG guys around, bashed Sigil for selling 250k boxes in a single month, and LoTRO only did half that in three months, and likely only sold slightly more worlwide. Kind of funny if you ask me.
You find it funny because you are misinformed. Sigil sold less than 200k boxes worldwide from their their January release to May 5th which is about a three month period.
You say that LOTRO only did half that. Not only are you comparing LOTRO's sales in NA to VG's sales worldwide, but now VG's numbers went up to 250k and LOTRO's numbers went down to 125k!
Deal in facts.
Do we have an official number for VG other than the SONY Press Release stating "nearly 200,000"?
175k is an NA number and not worldwide. You dismiss the EU numbers because the NA games have never been big over there, despite the news reports and chart reports about how LOTRO has had record breaking sales in EU.
The only people that don't find LOTRO to be a success are the people who are blinded by the anomoly and cannot see past WOW's 9 million.
Question: Do you consider EVE Online to be a successful MMOG?
-- Whammy - a 64x64 miniRPG - RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right? - FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
But you are righ Mike this horse has decomposed and the thread really needs to be locked and die a decent death. I just hate to be misquoted and hate even more when figures are twisted in order to create spin.
You must love politics, then :-p
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
I just hate to be misquoted and hate even more when figures are twisted in order to create spin.
What is spin about saying the KNOWN figures of 172k NA sales for the first quarter after release is not so good for a game with a major IP and a whole ton of hype and smashing success predictions? It seems a pretty straightforward opinion referencing a known fact, the spin is what you do trying to obfuscate the issue with suppositions about other sales and assumptions that the game will sell more later and all sorts of other things not known.
There is no spin in saying a major game with a major franchise label sold with no competition surrounding it should likely have done far better than 172,000 boxes sold in North America in the quarter after release.
I never claimed it was going bottoms up or anything of the sort in this thread or any other. As for the numbers, they are not that good, period. Go on spinning otherwise but we all know reality is that the game hasn't been the blockbuster smash it was touted to be by its creators and their hype machine and by its fanboys. I mean somene said a post or two back 'use facts from both sides' as if this is subjective. THE GAME SOLD 172k NORTH AMERICAN COPIES - there is no point/counterpoint - no looking for something else to average against that. That isn't so great, and while it doesn't suck by itself (allthough one could says it sucks given the expectations and the hype and the largess of the IP not to mention the absolute vacuum in new MMOs now) it is ABSOLUTELY, UNDENIABLY not great. Weighed against the proclamations of WoW type millkions of subs from Turbine, the hype machine, and from the fans here adn elsewhere it is fair to say 172k NA sales is relatively bad. God I am so sick of the absolute stupidity on this site, being a fan is one thing but denying reality is quite another.
<sigh> the same old one sided I'm only gonna use the number that fits my side of the debate and exagreate everything else.
Agent Smith (hater) " THE GAME SOLD 172K NORTH AMERICAN COPIES"
Us (RAbid carebare Fanbois) But the game has sold in more then just North America and those figures are just for the first 9 weeks surely you don't think it hasn't sold another copy since then?
Agent Smith: THE GAME SOLD 172K NORTH AMERICAN COPIES! LoTRO Fanbois are stupid and must eat crow because they all said it would be the next WoW killer!
Us: Um but we're pointing out it has to have sold more then 172K copies surely a significant amount between just your 9 weeks NA figure (adding downloads, sells outside of NA etc) Not a million but surely more then 25K.
Also were is anyone saying LoTRO is a WoW Killer? Certainly not anywhere in this thread, and while theres always someone thats gonna say something crazy surely no ones really taking them seriously?
Agent Smith: I FOUND 3 examples of LoTRO fanbois saying WoW was either a WoW killer or was gonna sell a million copies. One of which was form the company head. They are hyping the game THEY MUST EAT CROW!
Us: Humm lol you searched the whole web and you found 3 examples. Can't say I'm surprised really, but you took them seriously? And what you say the head of the company is Hyping the game, OMG NO, well I'm sure thats never happened before. I'd hazzard a guess that the company head was trying to be humerous with perhaps more then a bit of WIshfull thinking. I seem to remember Brad MCQ in a post not long after VG's release stating How good VG was doing and great it was and how it would never be as bad as say DDO with its mere 90k subs. (yadda Yadda Yadda)
Agent Smith: VG sold 200 K subs in its first month LoTRO has SOLD 172K NORTH AMERICAN COPIES! LoTRO is a Flop, and a Failure. LoTRO FANBOIS ARE SO STUPID AND MUST EAT CROW!
Us: Humm ok we understand the number of sells in LoTRO's first 9 weeks in North America really we do, but that was only in the first 9 weeks and its only for North america you do understand that? We also understand you think LoTRO is a flop and a failure. Still very hard to believe you took to heart anyone saying LoTRO would be a wow killer. Also you are aware SOE reports 200k boxed sells of VG over a 3 month period world wide (not 200k in North america in the first month) or are you counting pre-orders, Perhaps your stating that SOE is Lying (you wouldn't be the first )
Agent Smith: Almost everywhere LoTRO fanbois are all saying LoTRO is a WOW Killer, They are saying irts selling millions of copies!!! THEY MUST ALL EAT CROW!!
Us: umm no thats a lie only the fring elements (so to say) are saying or have said LoTRO is a WoW killer or that its selling millions of copies, and only a complete idiot would actually take such things to heart considing the lack of proof as you have very well pointed out. Still why all the LoTRO fanbois must eat crow and be punished BS? I've not seen anything here that doesn't happen in any game Forum. I have already seen posts stating AoC will be a WoW killer, or sell millions. I also saw VG fanbois post the same thing about VG early in its release and in beta (some still state in another 6 months to a year when it reaches its potential it will) yet I do not see you trolling their boards and demading crow eating justice.
In the end its funny you spin the numbers just as much as any Fanbois by use of repeating one simple number as if it was set in stone and the be all and end all while pulling other numbers to support your arguement seemingly out of thin air to support you arguement (like the 200 k copies of VG sold in the first month a number even Brad himself didn't say (and Brads was the master of spin)
No I'm not telling you not to post (I know you wouldn't listen even if i did) I'd miss your weird blind one sided debate full of Vitrol and hate. (Though i gotta admit you kinda scare me,) Sure LoTRO has done nothing several games before it, and many games yet to be released aren't doing . (You know hyping the game, having Fanbois making sill claims etc.) But do continue to point it out as the only one it shows you for what you really are.
Hey Jackdog, When a game releases on april 24, technically the second business quarter for most businesses, it can ONLY have second quarter sales. There are no first quarter sales because the game didn't exist in a state that it could be sold during the first quarter.
Umm where did I ever say anything about first quarter sales? My point has been all along in this thread is that the 179K was the N American box sales for the 9 weeks between April 24 and June 30.
As far as the European numbers, if are going to compare Vanguard's world wide sales to LoTRO you also need to use LoTRO's world wide sales. Not just the N American figures. Using Vanguard's overall sales to a partial quarters of LoTRO's N American sales to try and prove a point as some in this thread have attempted is flawed logic.
And yes I was a Vanguard basher, SOE needs to quit releasing half finished buggy games. I was also a Mourning basher and a Dark and Light basher. You want to defend those pieces of garbage also.
But you are righ Mike this horse has decomposed and the thread really needs to be locked and die a decent death. I just hate to be misquoted and hate even more when figures are twisted in order to create spin.
250k boxes in a single month, and LoTRO only did half that in three months, and likely only sold slightly more worlwide.
That's what I wrote in my original post. Maybe you missed my point. VG sales in the first month aren't much worse then LoTRO worldwide sales in the first 3 months. Even if EU sales were the same as it's NA sales, it's still only about 100k more people then baught VG in a single month. 100k out of hundreds of millions is just a dimple in a pond, and not much to be bragged about.
Comments
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/139314 - this one was titled something crazy like "Gaurantee 1 million subs blah, blah, blah"
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/127060 - this one started more unassumingly but if you read through the responses the belief by the game supporters of WoWish numbers in rather prevelant.
Many other threads where all over these boards and inside all sorts of discussion of LotRO the WOW killer crazy predicitions where common. Go to the LotRO boards and it was even more insane. Look, we can debate this endlessly and never agree - fans will argue with emotion and refuse to admit what I have been saying from the get go in this thread that LotRO is just not the major sensation it was made out to be by turbine and th efans here and elsewhere. 172k NA sales shows that to be true. Does it mean the game is a fialure, no - but I never said it was - I simply said it was clearly not waht it has been hyped up to be by Turbine and the fans.
Now, that being said, I do believe you could judge the circumstances of no competing releases, a major IP such as LotR, and the obvious attention the game has gotten coupled with the sales numbers we know and say that alltogether it is not good. that much is subjective, and subjectively I think it is fair to say it hasn't done good considering those things - but you cannot argue that it wasn't put out there as a WoW killer (either by fans or Turbine) and that in the veign it seems to be failing miserably.
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Achiever 60.00%, Socializer 53.00%, Killer 47.00%, Explorer 40.00%
Intel Core i7 Quad, Intel X58 SLi, 6G Corsair XMS DDR3, Intel X-25 SSD, 3 WD Velociraptor SATA SuperTrak SAS EX8650 Array, OCZ 1250W PS, GTX 295, xFi, 32" 1080p LCD
Problem is WOW has alot of the potential subscribers which are casuals that wont pay for 2 games per month so wont even bother with LOTRO.
I'm honestly a bit surprised that the box sales were only 170K in NA in the first nine weeks. Even when we add in Europe and Australia, I would say that means at best 400K total box sales. I was expecting the game to settle in somewhere between EQ II and WoW, but much closer to the EQ II end of things (maybe 500K subs). Looks more like it's settling in between near utter failures (such as MXO) and EQ II.
I haven't seen populations drop off much on my server. You can see how often everyone on your friends list logs, and about half of the players I met at launch are still on (and by that i mean they log at least once every day or two, even if we don't happen to overlap). Doing out of my ass math, that means the true number of current subs would range from 2.3 K (100 players per server, obviously too low) to 300K (75% retention from launch, obviously too high). We'll split the difference and call it roughly 150K including NA, Europe, and Australia. Far from a dismal failure, but less than I was expecting personally. It also indicates that certain statements from Turbine have been, at best, misleading.
That said, I will be interested to see what the numbers look like when we get some real ones and can all stop using sphincter based methods of estimation. As an aside, If 170 K was enough sales over nine weeks to stay in the top ten for as long as LoTRO did, PC gaming is in a sad state.
I don't want to write this, and you don't want to read it. But now it's too late for both of us.
Very well said I think.
And yes, PC gaming is in a sad state which is part of why I interpreted the number more harshly than I otherwise might. With nearly no big title releases to compete with I would have expected far better. Everything in PC gaming is on hold while vista/DX10 sorts out (seemingly the end of this year).
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Achiever 60.00%, Socializer 53.00%, Killer 47.00%, Explorer 40.00%
Intel Core i7 Quad, Intel X58 SLi, 6G Corsair XMS DDR3, Intel X-25 SSD, 3 WD Velociraptor SATA SuperTrak SAS EX8650 Array, OCZ 1250W PS, GTX 295, xFi, 32" 1080p LCD
ou got links to prove that Gules or aer you just making more stuff up and trying to twist figures?
So what you are saying is that those games sold more than 172K copies in 9 weeks just in N America?Show me the figures Gules. I bet you cannot show me where any other MMORPG except WoW that sold more than 172K copies in the N American market in the first 9 weeks.Post links to legit prove it, other wise you are just pulling your "facts" out of thin air.
uhm.. well actually, even Vanguard beat that.
It had 300K preorders worldwide from EB/Gamespot
EQ2 sold 86,000 on it's first day, Ihave no idea what quarter numbers were.
But no matter, because no matter how much you spin it, 172K in 9 weeks is not very good. Not bad, but sure as hell not good.
I think VG, as big of an abortion as that game is, sold 200k in its first month according to info I have read around.
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Achiever 60.00%, Socializer 53.00%, Killer 47.00%, Explorer 40.00%
Intel Core i7 Quad, Intel X58 SLi, 6G Corsair XMS DDR3, Intel X-25 SSD, 3 WD Velociraptor SATA SuperTrak SAS EX8650 Array, OCZ 1250W PS, GTX 295, xFi, 32" 1080p LCD
On a humorous side note check this out...
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/143045/page/1
...aside from how funny the game talked about in that thread is note how in the thread obviously jokingly calling it the "WoW killer" people start chiming in defending WoW as unbeatable and/or beatable. It is as hilarious as the silly game.
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We've already posted SONY's Press Release that says Vanguard "launched in late January of this year and has sold nearly 200,000 retail and digital units worldwide." Vanguard did not even sell 200k units in over three months. Unless you are now saying that SOE is lying, we'll file that under the "fact" column.
So your numbers are wrong on all counts.
- You say Vanguard's total is for one month when it is for over three.
- You quote it as 200k when SOE themselves stated in their release it is under 200k
- You quote only the NA sales for LOTRO, and you completely ignore both
a) that they do not include July.
b) that there were significant EU sales as well. By your statements, you do not feel that even 25k boxes were sold in EU and Japan combined.
As long as you continue to dismiss the given facts here, it's hard to really move forward in this discussion.
You are reasoning with your emotions and not with the facts.
- RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right?
- FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
I had always heard it was 200k for VG in the first month, and then straight into the crapper form there.
Regardless, LotROs 172k in NA over the first quarter when it is a major IP, major launch in a vacuum with so many MMO players looking for something new is clearly not great and I think a stretch to even say it is good - whatever your analysis of the 172k it is absolutely NOT WoW like numbers which so many predicted or otherwise hinted at.
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It was 200K worldwide for Vanguardduring their first quarter. Not that it matters as far as Vanguards time, I doubt you could have gave away a copy after the first week or so. The 179K was just LoTRO's N America sales for 9 weeks ( April 24 - June 30 ), not even a full quarter. Another way of looking at it was LoTRO sold twice as many copies worldwide as Vanguard did in half the time
. LoTRO is still selling quite well and still in Amazon's top 100 list.
Who was it claimed WoW like numbers? Do you have a link ?
I miss DAoC
Exactly what does it matter about VG anyways, it was only ever mentioned as a comparison but even if the numbers mentioned by others for VG are off it doesn't make the LotRO numbers we know any better. Links? I have posted several links - I find your constant asking for links to things we all heard people say just a red herring to avoid the reality.
Go on with your belief the LotRO is some smash hit, I think it is pretty clear to anyone not emotionally attached to the game as a fan that it was anything but great and possibly even not so good. I am not sure which I find more sad - the way you fanboys are incapable of seeing reality or the way you can't just own own to a bit of overexuberance in forcasting massive succes for the game.
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I find your making claims without backing it up with prrof even more amusing
What's the old saying? Oh yeah, if you ain't got a pic or a link it never happened.
I miss DAoC
I find your making claims without backing it up with prrof even more amusing
What's the old saying? Oh yeah, if you ain't got a pic or a link it never happened.
I suppose people who have no knowledge themselves find that true, and those to taxed to be able to read the links posted in this thread allready.
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Hey Jackdog,
When a game releases on april 24, technically the second business quarter for most businesses, it can ONLY have second quarter sales.
There are no first quarter sales because the game didn't exist in a state that it could be sold during the first quarter.
Everyone else,
172k doesn't include sales for the previous month. That's assuming that Midway or Turbine doesn't have some goofy quarter system that puts the month of July in the 4th quarter, something I don't think any company does.
You can't determine success off a single quarter.
And box sales say nothing about sub rates.
Preorders don't count as a sale unless the person that preordered actually buys the game.
For a 3 month period 172k isn't bad, but it's not exactly a model of smashing success either. As far as video games go today, It's barely made it to mediocre.
It's a western developed game, and the, "that's not EU sales" arguement really doesn't matter. The trend isn't that western games do better in EU, it's that they do worse. Especially in the Asian market. Also, there are more people in all of EU then in the US. Even if it sells just as many boxes in EU as it did in the US, you can't call that a success. Most companies wouldn't call it one either. It's not bad, but it's not a success. You're talking about hundreds of millions of potential customers, and if you can only nab 100k+ you aren't exactly sitting pretty.
Like someone else said. WoW isn't typical, it's a phenomenon. What WoW has managed to do isn't normal, and may never be seen again. No one single company is likely ever going to match Blizzard, it's going to be a bunch of companies that bring the king down, and that isn't happening this year or next. Nor does it matter. If the games running, you like it, have people to play with, then that's all that matters. Sub numbers and sales mean nothing if you enjoy the game you're playing at any given time.
Also, I to find it funny that Jackdog, one of the most vocal anti-VG guys around, bashed Sigil for selling 250k boxes in a single month, and LoTRO only did half that in three months, and likely only sold slightly more worlwide. Kind of funny if you ask me.
Wish Darkfall would release.
Very, very well said.
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Vanguard sold 250k boxes which dropped to 90k active accounts in a month after the launch of the game.
As in Vanguard sold 250k copies of the game within the first weeks of launch day.
So LotRO hasn't done all that good considering it has a much stronger IP.
My guess (though I like the game, personally)...
Despite the franchise.. it's really just more Elves, Dwarves and what-not wrapped up in a more famous skin... The novelty wears off after a time. Plus, it really doesn't innovate all *that* much on the genre. The music system is cool and it has a nice graphics engine (I'm a fan of the AC2 engine personally... but then, I'm a fan of AC2... go figure), but there's nothing "OMG Ground-breaking" about it.
Perhaps had it been released back when trilogy was still really fresh in everyone's minds, it might have had a stronger launch. At least that's my armchair opinion, and it's not even really that great of an armchair.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Pffft to that. I'm waiting for Brad McQuaid's next MMO...
"The Vision Online"
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
for now i like LOTRO better then WOW for 1 reason. Community! WOW is a great game but it's community ----> suxorz! unfortunately. and in LOTRO i fell more comfortable, because i like PvE MMO's better
as for sales, well this is pretty new MMO, w8 for more months to come. Vanguard sales were ok in first few weeks, but look it now. LOTRO will sell more and more because Turbine are making this game more and more playable and polished.
Sry for my bad english.
Lotro - Dwarf Champion
WOW - Undead Warrior
You know... when the dead horse itself gets up and says "ENOUGH ALREADY!", it's maybe time to drop it.
Who. The hell. Cares.
Seriously.
Are LoTRO's sales numbers during any given period going to affect anyone's enjoyment of the game? I hope the answer is no.
Are WoW's sales numbers during any given period going to affect anyone's ability to enjoy LoTRO? I hope the answer is no.
So long as you're enjoying the game, does it really matter how many it sold nation-wide, world-wide or whatever?
Good grief, people.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Umm where did I ever say anything about first quarter sales? My point has been all along in this thread is that the 179K was the N American box sales for the 9 weeks between April 24 and June 30.
As far as the European numbers, if are going to compare Vanguard's world wide sales to LoTRO you also need to use LoTRO's world wide sales. Not just the N American figures. Using Vanguard's overall sales to a partial quarters of LoTRO's N American sales to try and prove a point as some in this thread have attempted is flawed logic.
And yes I was a Vanguard basher, SOE needs to quit releasing half finished buggy games. I was also a Mourning basher and a Dark and Light basher. You want to defend those pieces of garbage also.
But you are righ Mike this horse has decomposed and the thread really needs to be locked and die a decent death. I just hate to be misquoted and hate even more when figures are twisted in order to create spin.
I miss DAoC
You find it funny because you are misinformed. Sigil sold less than 200k boxes worldwide from their their January release to May 5th which is about a three month period.
You say that LOTRO only did half that. Not only are you comparing LOTRO's sales in NA to VG's sales worldwide, but now VG's numbers went up to 250k and LOTRO's numbers went down to 125k!
Deal in facts.
Do we have an official number for VG other than the SONY Press Release stating "nearly 200,000"?
175k is an NA number and not worldwide. You dismiss the EU numbers because the NA games have never been big over there, despite the news reports and chart reports about how LOTRO has had record breaking sales in EU.
The only people that don't find LOTRO to be a success are the people who are blinded by the anomoly and cannot see past WOW's 9 million.
Question: Do you consider EVE Online to be a successful MMOG?
- RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right?
- FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
You must love politics, then :-p
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
What is spin about saying the KNOWN figures of 172k NA sales for the first quarter after release is not so good for a game with a major IP and a whole ton of hype and smashing success predictions? It seems a pretty straightforward opinion referencing a known fact, the spin is what you do trying to obfuscate the issue with suppositions about other sales and assumptions that the game will sell more later and all sorts of other things not known.
There is no spin in saying a major game with a major franchise label sold with no competition surrounding it should likely have done far better than 172,000 boxes sold in North America in the quarter after release.
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<sigh> the same old one sided I'm only gonna use the number that fits my side of the debate and exagreate everything else.
Agent Smith (hater) " THE GAME SOLD 172K NORTH AMERICAN COPIES"
Us (RAbid carebare Fanbois) But the game has sold in more then just North America and those figures are just for the first 9 weeks surely you don't think it hasn't sold another copy since then?
Agent Smith: THE GAME SOLD 172K NORTH AMERICAN COPIES! LoTRO Fanbois are stupid and must eat crow because they all said it would be the next WoW killer!
Us: Um but we're pointing out it has to have sold more then 172K copies surely a significant amount between just your 9 weeks NA figure (adding downloads, sells outside of NA etc) Not a million but surely more then 25K.
Also were is anyone saying LoTRO is a WoW Killer? Certainly not anywhere in this thread, and while theres always someone thats gonna say something crazy surely no ones really taking them seriously?
Agent Smith: I FOUND 3 examples of LoTRO fanbois saying WoW was either a WoW killer or was gonna sell a million copies. One of which was form the company head. They are hyping the game THEY MUST EAT CROW!
Us: Humm lol you searched the whole web and you found 3 examples. Can't say I'm surprised really, but you took them seriously? And what you say the head of the company is Hyping the game, OMG NO, well I'm sure thats never happened before. I'd hazzard a guess that the company head was trying to be humerous with perhaps more then a bit of WIshfull thinking. I seem to remember Brad MCQ in a post not long after VG's release stating How good VG was doing and great it was and how it would never be as bad as say DDO with its mere 90k subs. (yadda Yadda Yadda)
Agent Smith: VG sold 200 K subs in its first month LoTRO has SOLD 172K NORTH AMERICAN COPIES! LoTRO is a Flop, and a Failure. LoTRO FANBOIS ARE SO STUPID AND MUST EAT CROW!
Us: Humm ok we understand the number of sells in LoTRO's first 9 weeks in North America really we do, but that was only in the first 9 weeks and its only for North america you do understand that? We also understand you think LoTRO is a flop and a failure. Still very hard to believe you took to heart anyone saying LoTRO would be a wow killer. Also you are aware SOE reports 200k boxed sells of VG over a 3 month period world wide (not 200k in North america in the first month) or are you counting pre-orders, Perhaps your stating that SOE is Lying (you wouldn't be the first
)
Agent Smith: Almost everywhere LoTRO fanbois are all saying LoTRO is a WOW Killer, They are saying irts selling millions of copies!!! THEY MUST ALL EAT CROW!!
Us: umm no thats a lie only the fring elements (so to say) are saying or have said LoTRO is a WoW killer or that its selling millions of copies, and only a complete idiot would actually take such things to heart considing the lack of proof as you have very well pointed out. Still why all the LoTRO fanbois must eat crow and be punished BS? I've not seen anything here that doesn't happen in any game Forum. I have already seen posts stating AoC will be a WoW killer, or sell millions. I also saw VG fanbois post the same thing about VG early in its release and in beta (some still state in another 6 months to a year when it reaches its potential it will) yet I do not see you trolling their boards and demading crow eating justice.
In the end its funny you spin the numbers just as much as any Fanbois by use of repeating one simple number as if it was set in stone and the be all and end all while pulling other numbers to support your arguement seemingly out of thin air to support you arguement (like the 200 k copies of VG sold in the first month a number even Brad himself didn't say (and Brads was the master of spin)
No I'm not telling you not to post (I know you wouldn't listen even if i did) I'd miss your weird blind one sided debate full of Vitrol and hate. (Though i gotta admit you kinda scare me,) Sure LoTRO has done nothing several games before it, and many games yet to be released aren't doing . (You know hyping the game, having Fanbois making sill claims etc.) But do continue to point it out as the only one it shows you for what you really are.
Umm where did I ever say anything about first quarter sales? My point has been all along in this thread is that the 179K was the N American box sales for the 9 weeks between April 24 and June 30.
As far as the European numbers, if are going to compare Vanguard's world wide sales to LoTRO you also need to use LoTRO's world wide sales. Not just the N American figures. Using Vanguard's overall sales to a partial quarters of LoTRO's N American sales to try and prove a point as some in this thread have attempted is flawed logic.
And yes I was a Vanguard basher, SOE needs to quit releasing half finished buggy games. I was also a Mourning basher and a Dark and Light basher. You want to defend those pieces of garbage also.
But you are righ Mike this horse has decomposed and the thread really needs to be locked and die a decent death. I just hate to be misquoted and hate even more when figures are twisted in order to create spin.
250k boxes in a single month, and LoTRO only did half that in three months, and likely only sold slightly more worlwide.That's what I wrote in my original post. Maybe you missed my point. VG sales in the first month aren't much worse then LoTRO worldwide sales in the first 3 months. Even if EU sales were the same as it's NA sales, it's still only about 100k more people then baught VG in a single month. 100k out of hundreds of millions is just a dimple in a pond, and not much to be bragged about.
Wish Darkfall would release.