In the end its funny you spin the numbers just as much as any Fanbois by use of repeating one simple number as if it was set in stone and the be all and end all while pulling other numbers to support your arguement seemingly out of thin air to support you arguement (like the 200 k copies of VG sold in the first month a number even Brad himself didn't say (and Brads was the master of spin)
Since 172k is the only 'official' number (and it is set in stone for crying out loud, it isn't a flexible number you can make into what you want) what else would you have us use? You on the fanboy side invent a greater Euro number to attempt to spin the fact that 172k for NA in the first quarter just isn't really that good. Show me an official number saying Euro sales where 300k or that subs worldwide are 500k or something other than what we know to be true and I will retract my conclusion that LotRO has done poorly or not so good considering the IP and all the rest. Short of that operating the facts we have it is not possible to say LotRO has lived up to the hype unless you just invent assumptions that fit your emotional attachment to the game.
Spin is not saying I read that the official NA sales for the first quarter after release was 172,000 and I think that is not so good. Spin is what Turbine's CEO was doing in the interview I quoted in this thread saying all sorts of things to make it sound as if this was a runaway success unparalleled by nearly any MMO before and joking (uh-hum, spin anyone) that he will get back to you when they are at 6 million. THAT IS SPIN. That is hype. That is what is worthy, in my opinon, of a bit of crow eating now that a real number is out that is not so steller.
Just to help you guys here is a comparison:
SPIN: Mr. Anderson (Turbine): Well, besides what I just said probably not. I'd love to, I'd love to, because I think people would be excited about where we are already, barely a month out of the gate. We really don't, though ... it's kind of our policy not to talk about it? People always gave us a hard time; they always said we did it because our number were bad. Now that we have even great numbers we still don't do it. (laughs) So at least maybe we're consistent. When we break ten million, I'll give you a call, how about that?
COMMENT: 172k North American box sales in the first quarter after launch doesn't seem very good, especially given the hype surrounding the game from the DEVs and fans.
See the differance? One serves to inflate reality to improve the position of the speaker - the other looks at reality and offers a simple opinion based on that reality. The spin is coming from Turbine and alot (fringe or otherwise) LotRO fans and no matter how much you want to muddy the waters to protect the image you have in your mind about some blazing success it is fairly evident to about anyone that LotRo is just not what it has been made out to be in terms of size and popularity.
I find your constant asking for links to things we all heard people say just a red herring to avoid the reality.
I find your making claims without backing it up with prrof even more amusing What's the old saying? Oh yeah, if you ain't got a pic or a link it never happened.
Actually, Turbine themselves seemed to suggest that they had at least a million players from reading several of their adds in gaming magazines. The line said something like "join millions of gamers" or something like that. I don't have the magazine (PC Gamer) with me now but I will check tomorrow to find out exactly what it said. Also, your still pulling numbers out of the air and making things up when you mention the EU and Asian markets. PC games don't sell that well in either market, esp. in places like Japan which is pretty much a console only market. Extrapolating numbers from NA to the rest of the world is a mistake.
Is a man not entitled to the herp of his derp?
Remember, I live in a world where juggalos and yugioh players are real things.
250k boxes in a single month, and LoTRO only did half that in three months, and likely only sold slightly more worlwide.
What is the source for that 250k number? I haven't seen an official source give a number other than the SOE Press Release that said it was less than 200k after three months of sales.
-- Whammy - a 64x64 miniRPG - RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right? - FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
Blah, blah, blah - 172k boxes sold in the US is not stellar, not great, not even remarkable. And again, 172k boxes sold doesn't equate to 172k subscriptions - so even if Europe sold the same, around 172k, and the other couple launch areas sold another 172k combined (unlikely) that falls well short of even 700k boxes sold which means subs are not anywhere near 1 million or probably even 200k or so. Face it, at best it is just another MMO and all this meager sales numbers when it is the only thing new out there other than VG which outsold it in a month and is a raving failure.
You can wax on all you want but the numbers do not lie - selling 172,000 copies of a game in the US is not what great, popular, WoW killer games do whether the numbers are for a month or, let alone, and entire quarter after launch. All this for a game released with nearly NO competition and one of the biggest most well know IPs in the genre - the IP that defined the genre in fact.
Ok lets see You claim as a fact that VG in one month sold more boxes then LoTRO did in its first quarter in NA?
Please Link your source. All posts i can find from SOE to one from Brad MCQ himself do not seem to agree with your numbers.
As I am sure you wouldn't just make up information to support your reasoned analysis so I look forward to the link. (Not sure why I can't find the info myself )
also you conterdict yourself (IMO) stating LoTRO had no competition when it was released but It was released on the Heels of VG, and not long after TBC which is the wow expansion. WoW being pretty much the undisputed current KING of MMO's. (I know I was still playing my free month of VG when LoTRO came out so it was competition in my book at least)
I find your constant asking for links to things we all heard people say just a red herring to avoid the reality.
I find your making claims without backing it up with prrof even more amusing What's the old saying? Oh yeah, if you ain't got a pic or a link it never happened.
Actually, Turbine themselves seemed to suggest that they had at least a million players from reading several of their adds in gaming magazines. The line said something like "join millions of gamers" or something like that. I don't have the magazine (PC Gamer) with me now but I will check tomorrow to find out exactly what it said. Also, your still pulling numbers out of the air and making things up when you mention the EU and Asian markets. PC games don't sell that well in either market, esp. in places like Japan which is pretty much a console only market. Extrapolating numbers from NA to the rest of the world is a mistake.
They had if i remember correctly there was the million player world tour open beta. Meaning supposibly there were up to a million beta positions to try out the game weither they got that many or not is hard to say.
On a side note though companys hype their games, this is nothing new. Check out a VG Box next time your at your softwware store. Its got tons of claims 9Ie naval battles, flying controllable ariel mounts, last I heard none of which was yet actually functional in the game (ie seemless world, oh this chunking I'm experiencing must be my imagination).
Forums are no different check the AoC forum and you will find posts stating its the next WoW killer or will have 1 million subs
Sorry in advance for using VG for comparison but its the most recent MMO I played next to LoTRO
250k boxes in a single month, and LoTRO only did half that in three months, and likely only sold slightly more worlwide.
What is the source for that 250k number? I haven't seen an official source give a number other than the SOE Press Release that said it was less than 200k after three months of sales.
If Jackdog can keep bumping the number of LoTRO boxes to 179, then why can't I bump VG's box sales.
I thought that the press release was over 200k sold.
In the end its funny you spin the numbers just as much as any Fanbois by use of repeating one simple number as if it was set in stone and the be all and end all while pulling other numbers to support your arguement seemingly out of thin air to support you arguement (like the 200 k copies of VG sold in the first month a number even Brad himself didn't say (and Brads was the master of spin)
Since 172k is the only 'official' number (and it is set in stone for crying out loud, it isn't a flexible number you can make into what you want) what else would you have us use? You on the fanboy side invent a greater Euro number to attempt to spin the fact that 172k for NA in the first quarter just isn't really that good. Show me an official number saying Euro sales where 300k or that subs worldwide are 500k or something other than what we know to be true and I will retract my conclusion that LotRO has done poorly or not so good considering the IP and all the rest. Short of that operating the facts we have it is not possible to say LotRO has lived up to the hype unless you just invent assumptions that fit your emotional attachment to the game.
Spin is not saying I read that the official NA sales for the first quarter after release was 172,000 and I think that is not so good. Spin is what Turbine's CEO was doing in the interview I quoted in this thread saying all sorts of things to make it sound as if this was a runaway success unparalleled by nearly any MMO before and joking (uh-hum, spin anyone) that he will get back to you when they are at 6 million. THAT IS SPIN. That is hype. That is what is worthy, in my opinon, of a bit of crow eating now that a real number is out that is not so steller.
Just to help you guys here is a comparison:
SPIN: Mr. Anderson (Turbine): Well, besides what I just said probably not. I'd love to, I'd love to, because I think people would be excited about where we are already, barely a month out of the gate. We really don't, though ... it's kind of our policy not to talk about it? People always gave us a hard time; they always said we did it because our number were bad. Now that we have even great numbers we still don't do it. (laughs) So at least maybe we're consistent. When we break ten million, I'll give you a call, how about that?
COMMENT: 172k North American box sales in the first quarter after launch doesn't seem very good, especially given the hype surrounding the game from the DEVs and fans.
See the differance? One serves to inflate reality to improve the position of the speaker - the other looks at reality and offers a simple opinion based on that reality. The spin is coming from Turbine and alot (fringe or otherwise) LotRO fans and no matter how much you want to muddy the waters to protect the image you have in your mind about some blazing success it is fairly evident to about anyone that LotRo is just not what it has been made out to be in terms of size and popularity.
Please read the whole post You'll notice I did mention the companies head hyping the game AKA spin. Please name one MMO company that doesn't hype its game (as I pointed out in the post yet you ignored or never bother to read. (ie becuase it didn't fit into your one sided view of LoTRO Fanbois?) and AFAIK only one game has lived up to its hype (WoW) and you willstill see hundreds of haters in different forums saying it hasn't. It seems to me perhaps you (or anyone) are unrealistly nieve if you really buy all (or even most) of the hype any company puts out.
Also you seem to be stating as of today LoTRO has not sold one more box then the 172K number you continually post over and over from its first 9 weeks in NA? If you read and understand what i wrote you would have seen I didn't question the 172K number for NA release in LoTRO first 9 weeks. I simply pointed out that you seemed unwilling to accpet that any other copies have been sold overseas, or since then as your whole arguement is LoTRO is doing poorly by your standard today because of one number which is their First quarter NA Box sells. (Not including downloads?) You still state the number is set in stone like time has frozen and they haven't sold even one copy since then. It simply makes you look foolish as no one is argueing what the numbers were simply that they do not show the complete picture as of now.
You are very fond of showing the numbers of other MMO boxes sold worldwide over several months of sells and comparing them to the NA first quarter sell of LoTRO to prove your point (ie comparing apples to oranges) this is why I constantly point out you are the spinning the numbers and presenting a very baised (emotional attached) one sided case.
Please point out one post of mine anywhere, or any post in this thread stating LoTRO was a WOW killer or has 1 million subs. You say its not doing well, average at best, and possibly a failure (by way of saying it sold worse then another MMO that was recently sold when its company went belly up) You seem to be saying everyone is saying LoTRO is a blazing success. Well depends on how you rate success. Is it another WoW ? No so in that comparison maybe it is a failure. Is the company still in business and turing a profit I think so but don't have the figures just as I'm guessing neither do you.
When I start seeing you post against the hype in say the VG forum or the AoC forum then I will believe your just a person out to combat hype till then I figure your just a person with no real game to play and to much time on your hands bashing LoTRO to keep from getting too bored. .
250k boxes in a single month, and LoTRO only did half that in three months, and likely only sold slightly more worlwide.
What is the source for that 250k number? I haven't seen an official source give a number other than the SOE Press Release that said it was less than 200k after three months of sales.
If Jackdog can keep bumping the number of LoTRO boxes to 179, then why can't I bump VG's box sales.
I thought that the press release was over 200k sold.
I'll have to look it up now.
jackdog is bumping nothing the whole thread is about this link
which is about how LoTRO sold 179 K copies in N America at release on 24 April and the end of the quarter which was June 30. Not bad for 9 weeks of sales just in the N American market if you ask me.
250k boxes in a single month, and LoTRO only did half that in three months, and likely only sold slightly more worlwide.
What is the source for that 250k number? I haven't seen an official source give a number other than the SOE Press Release that said it was less than 200k after three months of sales.
If Jackdog can keep bumping the number of LoTRO boxes to 179, then why can't I bump VG's box sales.
I thought that the press release was over 200k sold.
I'll have to look it up now.
jackdog is bumping nothing the whole thread is about this link
which is about how LoTRO sold 179 K copies in N America at release on 24 April and the end of the quarter which was June 30. Not bad for 9 weeks of sales just in the N American market if you ask me.
Actually... in the interest of not providing yet another detail to be blown out of proportion, the article actually says 172k. Only 7k difference, I know... but I'm sure that'd be more than enough for some to go off on another tirade about.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Also you seem to be stating as of today LoTRO has not sold one more box then the 172K number you continually post over and over from its first 9 weeks in NA? If you read and understand what i wrote you would have seen I didn't question the 172K number for NA release in LoTRO first 9 weeks. I simply pointed out that you seemed unwilling to accpet that any other copies have been sold overseas, or since then as your whole arguement is LoTRO is doing poorly by your standard today because of one number which is their First quarter NA Box sells. (Not including downloads?) You still state the number is set in stone like time has frozen and they haven't sold even one copy since then. It simply makes you look foolish as no one is argueing what the numbers were simply that they do not show the complete picture as of now.
When I start seeing you post against the hype in say the VG forum or the AoC forum then I will believe your just a person out to combat hype till then I figure your just a person with no real game to play and to much time on your hands bashing LoTRO to keep from getting too bored.
First, all I started saying is that the 172k number seemed low, even perhaps bad given the IP adn the lack of other releases and such. I made no commentary saying that was all they sold, or that sales are not continuing (other than refuting someone who said games usually sell faster over time which is just untrue - usually they sell faster around launch). I only ever got into the assumption game in responding to someone who was speculating on what the non-North American sales where (I believe I just said lets assume it was similar and extrapolated from there). In short, my only commentary that wasn't in response to others assumptions was to say that I though the 172k for NA for the quarter was not so great, even bad given the circumstances.
As if it matters, I am in a couple threads in AoC forum (ex. 1, 2) here at MMORPG.com saying I thought the whole DX10 thing might be a bunch of hype and also saying the last couple combat videos expose teh much vaunted revolutionary combat system as flawed in some key ways. I haven't posted in VG in some time but after trying that game and giving up on it for alot of obvious reasons I posted as to why I thought it was crap - the summation of which was that it was a timesink series of false challenges but again, it was a while ago. IN short, I call it like I see it and if this fall comes and goes and AoC is a let down I will have similar things to say there as I have said here. That is kind of the point of a site with forums to discuss games.
I am even here saying some not terrible things about LotRO (not raving about it as my view is negative overall but i think I fairly relate my opinion in the discussion without flaming the game). Look, opinions vary but facts are facts guys and the fact is that LotRO, like most games, has the rapid fans who overly defend and hype thier game (you can see a number of them at work in this thread). I just felt it was worth pointing out these numbers when they came out since so many discussions of the game here and elsewhere turn into these 'you such the game is perfect' type emotional debates. If you disagree that 172k in the first quarter is a bad sales number then fine, say so - but certainly we can agree that it is not a rockign great number considering the lack of other titles out before/after and the huge IP the game uses. What it sold in Europe and Asia is unknow but it is likely comporable to the NA number meaning that over the first few months the game probably sold around 350k to 400k boxes which could be anywhere from 100k to 200k subs. Not a bad start but not what I would call WoW numbers or spectacular or something that sets the game apart from everything else in the way so many fans, and turbine, has been hyping and promting it to be. That is all I am saying here - lay off the wild proclimations of it being the next greatest game ever because from the fact we have about its sales it seems anything but that is the case. The real point I was making about these numbers was not if they are terrible or great but they are likely the best it will do since it has been competition free and ALOT of big blockbuster games are coming soon. Surely LotRO will continue to sell over time but it is pretty unrealistic to expect it to sell faster in the quarters after launch and in quarters with newer and hotly anticipated games coming. time will tell and if LotRO becomes a 500k sub game then I will say I was wrong but so far that seems unrealistic given the sales numbers we saw and the coming competition and the natural decline most games suffer over time.
All the people quoting numbers of how much LoTRO sold are quoting numbers that Gamespot came up with, the same people that started the crap that SOE BOUGHT out Flying Labs and their game Pirates of the Burning Sea, when they couldn't even get the facts straight.
If you look up Midway financial reports they DID NOT release box sales figures for the quarter, they only gave sales numbers. Gamespot is turning into a sensationalistic gaming news site who does not even look up information they are given. Point in fact, the SOE/Flying Labs BS. They specifically stated that SOE bought Flying Labs out, when it is just a publishing deal so that Flying Labs could get actual boxes out instead of the original idea of direct downloads. Look up on Midway.com and you will not find any sales figures stating how many boxes they sold.
AGAIN, Give us financial data from Turbine/Midway/Codemasters stating their exact sales figures and we might believe you, but to show you something, Gamespot originally said 71k boxes were sold for the quarter then came back and changed it by 100k just to try and cover their inept journalism.
Hell, I could send them some gaming news without facts and it would get posted as real.
Just do a google search for Midway Reports 2007 Q2 Results and see what you get. Not a single box sales figure anywhere, people putting down a game will believe anyone who they think as credible when the figures that Gamespot gave have no proof to back them up.
Here is a perfect example of why I have been arguing about this in this thread - and one posted just tonight by the biggest fanboy arguing in here that nobody is making claims of million subs type success. Quote below with link:
Originally posted by Jackdog
I think they are wanting 8 billion people. Population is pretty steady now I think. Bree can be get crowded at prime time, not as much as it was at launch but not a lot less either. My guess is they are around 125 - 150 K in N America, Europe is probably about the same. China launch should be soon, that will push it over a million. If AoC has a bad launch that will be more for N American and Europe servers. Turbine will not be going broke that is for sure. But Blizzard won't be doing any server merges over it either
I mean it is really too much - the guy flames me in here saying I am spinning and all that while he is off in a thread doing the very thing he says I invented as a prevalent claim by the LotRO fans. Seriously this is hard to believe. Look at what he says, he guess 150k subs here even though the sales for the whole first quarter of the game have been reported as only 172k boxes then doubles that for Europe getting to 340k subs and then just assigns China as soon to be accounting for another 700k+ subs which is just utter insanity. Wonder why I have said LotRO fans should eat some crow - CASE AND POINT.
And to the guy saying GS is inaccurate - I think the number makes sense and their explanation of the first inaccuracy seems plausible but if the number turns out to be different I would retract my conclusions. But the point about the way LotRO fans go on about the game remains as even using and accepting that number these fanboys invent crazy scenarios to justify an even crazier conclusion as shown above. The point really isn't if the number is accurate (and there is relly no reason to think it isn't), the point is how even using that number the fans make ridiculous spin out of it.
I think it is pretty safe to say that the only game that will kill WoW is SoS (Systems of Starcraft) or WoW 2. I also think it is pretty safe to say that LOTRO will not achieve beat WoW and that LOTRO will probably not exceed 700k subs (and that is A LOT). And, anti-fanbois that sounds like fanbois... Thats the funniest thing ever
I would not put a cap on subs until after the Chinese release myself and see what the Chinese think of it, but if you are talking 700 K western subs I would say even that is high. My guess would be closer to 400 - maybe 450K, and that would be an optimistic figure. Earlier in the thread I noticed that about half of WoW's 9 Million subs are in China, so LoTRO could easily have over a million there.
I think it is pretty safe to say that the only game that will kill WoW is SoS (Systems of Starcraft) or WoW 2. I also think it is pretty safe to say that LOTRO will not achieve beat WoW and that LOTRO will probably not exceed 700k subs (and that is A LOT). And, anti-fanbois that sounds like fanbois... Thats the funniest thing ever
I would not put a cap on subs until after the Chinese release myself and see what the Chinese think of it, but if you are talking 700 K western subs I would say even that is high. My guess would be closer to 400 - maybe 450K, and that would be an optimistic figure. Earlier in the thread I noticed that about half of WoW's 9 Million subs are in China, so LoTRO could easily have over a million there.
No. WoW is the only western MMO that did good in China, every other western MMO crashed horribly. and I see no reason why Lotro would be any different.
LotRO outsold WoW in the Month is was released, meaning it had a better opening month than WoW did, it also has outsold WoW every month since then...but total sales? WoW is the king there.
Quote:
Midway disclosed that LOTRO sold approx. 172,000 copies in North America during Q2, meaning through June...July's numbers won't be revealed until the Q3 earnings report. Speculation is that the game is enjoying similar success in Europe, likely placing it somewhere around 400k worldwide subscribers right now, which means it is doing very well and hasn't even launched in Asia, yet. Of course, the same that people say about WoW (how many of its 9 million subscriptions are used by gold farmers?) can be said for LOTRO, as evidenced by the amount of spam we receive.
Playing:World of Warcraft. Played:Lord of the Rings Online, Starwars Galaxies. Tried:Starwars the Old Republic, Everquest 2, Guild Wars, Vanguard, Age of Conan, Aion.
God almighty I wish Turbine would release their numbers of total box sales just to shut up AG!!
And LoTRO is a success and there's no way to spin it into a failure. The numbers are considered a success by everyone in the industry. And it received critical acclaim from reviewers all over the world- that in itself makes the game a success from a Developer's point of view.. The game has garnered raves universally and that has gotta make Turbine proud.
It's not a success like 8 million - but no game is going to have that kinda success again unless they copy Blizzard and cater their games to the people that have low end / stock PC's.. ...You all know that before WoW hit the scene- 250K box sales was considered a HUGE smash of a hit for a MMO? If Turbine does have 300-350k in the 2 countries so far it has launched in- that is wonderful!! Especially considering it's game requirements are much. much steeper than WoW's.
I just wanna know how many antacids AG and Gules are gonna have to pop if LoTRO wins Game of the Year for 2007 LOL!! Which many people in the industry are speculating that it will
All the people quoting numbers of how much LoTRO sold are quoting numbers that Gamespot came up with, the same people that started the crap that SOE BOUGHT out Flying Labs and their game Pirates of the Burning Sea, when they couldn't even get the facts straight. If you look up Midway financial reports they DID NOT release box sales figures for the quarter, they only gave sales numbers. Gamespot is turning into a sensationalistic gaming news site who does not even look up information they are given. Point in fact, the SOE/Flying Labs BS. They specifically stated that SOE bought Flying Labs out, when it is just a publishing deal so that Flying Labs could get actual boxes out instead of the original idea of direct downloads. Look up on Midway.com and you will not find any sales figures stating how many boxes they sold.
AGAIN, Give us financial data from Turbine/Midway/Codemasters stating their exact sales figures and we might believe you, but to show you something, Gamespot originally said 71k boxes were sold for the quarter then came back and changed it by 100k just to try and cover their inept journalism. Hell, I could send them some gaming news without facts and it would get posted as real.
Just do a google search for Midway Reports 2007 Q2 Results and see what you get. Not a single box sales figure anywhere, people putting down a game will believe anyone who they think as credible when the figures that Gamespot gave have no proof to back them up.
Thanks for that reality check.
In fact, I decided to do a little investigating myself. Midway reports 2Q earnings in the PC market at $10 million. LOTRO was the only PC game released by Midway in 2Q. That means the 172k figure is utterly crap. Simply divide $10 million in revenue by 172K and you get a whopping $58 per box unit which is all but impossible.
But let's look at this a bit more in detail. 1Q 2007 figures for Midway show for the PC market $110k in revenue -- a paultry amount. Safe to say that $10 million for 2Q is almost entirely LOTRO sales (and interesting enough if you look at 2Q 2006, they have $5m in revenue with Rise and Fall release). Now what percentage of the SRP does Midway receive? Hard to say, but many years ago when I worked in retail, the store would take 50% of the SRP. So let's assume Turbine and Midway split the remaining SRP evenly. That's roughly $12 each. Now divide that into $10 million and you get roughly 800k sales. But let's say Turbine was generous and Midway gets the remaining 50%. That's $25 per box, giving us 400k sales.
Now even if you doubt this simple math (and you can find on Midway's sight these figures to verify everything I've related), you cannot doubt that the 172k figure reported by GS is profoundly wrong.
_____________________________ Currently Playing: LOTRO; DDO Played: AC2, AO, Auto Assault, CoX, DAoC, DDO, Earth&Beyond, EQ1, EQ2, EVE, Fallen Earth, Jumpgate, Roma Victor, Second Life, SWG, V:SoH, WoW, World War II Online.
Games I'm watching: Infinity: The Quest for Earth, Force of Arms.
In fact, I decided to do a little investigating myself. Midway reports 2Q earnings in the PC market at $10 million. LOTRO was the only PC game released by Midway in 2Q. That means the 172k figure is utterly crap. Simply divide $10 million in revenue by 172K and you get a whopping $58 per box unit which is all but impossible. But let's look at this a bit more in detail. 1Q 2007 figures for Midway show for the PC market $110k in revenue -- a paultry amount. Safe to say that $10 million for 2Q is almost entirely LOTRO sales (and interesting enough if you look at 2Q 2006, they have $5m in revenue with Rise and Fall release). Now what percentage of the SRP does Midway receive? Hard to say, but many years ago when I worked in retail, the store would take 50% of the SRP. So let's assume Turbine and Midway split the remaining SRP evenly. That's roughly $12 each. Now divide that into $10 million and you get roughly 800k sales. But let's say Turbine was generous and Midway gets the remaining 50%. That's $25 per box, giving us 400k sales. Now even if you doubt this simple math (and you can find on Midway's sight these figures to verify everything I've related), you cannot doubt that the 172k figure reported by GS is profoundly wrong.
Such stupidity is nearly beyond belief. Are you seriously suggesting that a company only has income in a quarter from its new products and therefore, if it made 10 million in a quarter that it much be from LotRO only? None of us has any idea what those sales figures entail, could be liscense revenue, could be any number of amortizations, could be they sold the big company jet for crying out loud. It is entirely speculation to even try to use such a vague and nondescript figure which is EXACTLY what I have been arguing in this thread - the LoTRO fanboys will not accept anything other than the presumed/imagined belief that LotRO is either at 1 million subs or well on its way despite ANY evidence to support that and some evidence to counter it.
Also gotta love the both sides of the coin argument. First it is that 172k NA sales is great and it means that they have 1 million subs (or will soon), then they argue that 172k is not accurate and sales are much higher. It is kind of like the old saying I didn't do it and even if I did I had good reason.
Wow, 172k boxes sold in 3 months in NA. That is dissapointing in anyone's book for such a huge IP. Even if they get around 500k boxes sold worldwide in the first 3 months it's still dissapointing. Heck, put a LotR sticker on a napkin and it will seel like hotcakes.
Vanguard sold 250k in the first month worldwide apparently and it was bashed to hell and back (rightly so). How anyone can say 172k boxes sold in it's biggest market is a success is mind boggling.
Wow, 172k boxes sold in 3 months in NA. That is dissapointing in anyone's book for such a huge IP. Even if they get around 500k boxes sold worldwide in the first 3 months it's still dissapointing. Heck, put a LotR sticker on a napkin and it will seel like hotcakes.
Vanguard sold 250k in the first month worldwide apparently and it was bashed to hell and back (rightly so). How anyone can say 172k boxes sold in it's biggest market is a success is mind boggling.
You got a link to that "Vanguard sold 250k" statement Tex or are you shooting from the hip?
You guys are still on about this? Everyone feel better now?
Mr Brad was babbling about selling 200k-250k boxes after the first month, was linked in a gaming site somewhere. Can't be bothered finding a link, Futurama is starting...
Has anyone found this number on any other site? I went to all the official sites and found NOTHING about box sales only dollar amount sales. Yet somehow Gamespot has the box sales figures? Seems odd to me.
In America I have bad teeth. If I lived in England my teeth would be perfect.
LotRO outsold WoW in the Month is was released, meaning it had a better opening month than WoW did, it also has outsold WoW every month since then...but total sales? WoW is the king there.
Quote:
Midway disclosed that LOTRO sold approx. 172,000 copies in North America during Q2, meaning through June...July's numbers won't be revealed until the Q3 earnings report. Speculation is that the game is enjoying similar success in Europe, likely placing it somewhere around 400k worldwide subscribers right now, which means it is doing very well and hasn't even launched in Asia, yet. Of course, the same that people say about WoW (how many of its 9 million subscriptions are used by gold farmers?) can be said for LOTRO, as evidenced by the amount of spam we receive.
Midway nor Turbine has quoted any numbers other than their financial numbers for the quarter, those numbers were posted by Gamespot NOT from Midway or Turbine. Do a google search and you will find that there is ZERO info from Midway/Turbine/Codemasters stating any certain number of boxes sold.
I will repeat what I posted earlier, Gamespot has posted TWO different numbers, the first was 71k then said oops we meant 172k when in fact they don't even have the numbers and made them up. Gamespot is the same site who posted that SOE BOUGHT Flying Labs when in fact it was just a publishing deal and FL had to do major damage control on fansites and their own site to correct that SOE didn't buy anything.
Gamespot is a big gaming site, but still a site where info is usually given to them through outside sources and sometimes from the companies themselves. They are like Wiki, only as reliable as the info given them or that they post and alot of times with no backing of the facts.
Also, the statements that Vanguard sold certain numbers of boxes are NOT backed up by proof. They were statements done to spin PR and were never shown from a financial statement point of view.
People have proven fact that Brad lied about ALOT of Vanguard and Sigil just like Gamespot and other sites lie about box sales numbers most of the time. They don't have the financial data to even back their figures yet they still spout gaming figures all the time. I stopped relying on Gamespot a long time ago when they decided to start charging for FREE accounts without notifying their customer and then restart charging AGAIN 2 months after I cancelled said account. They also post unreliable news about games and companies without checking for proof.
Comments
Since 172k is the only 'official' number (and it is set in stone for crying out loud, it isn't a flexible number you can make into what you want) what else would you have us use? You on the fanboy side invent a greater Euro number to attempt to spin the fact that 172k for NA in the first quarter just isn't really that good. Show me an official number saying Euro sales where 300k or that subs worldwide are 500k or something other than what we know to be true and I will retract my conclusion that LotRO has done poorly or not so good considering the IP and all the rest. Short of that operating the facts we have it is not possible to say LotRO has lived up to the hype unless you just invent assumptions that fit your emotional attachment to the game.
Spin is not saying I read that the official NA sales for the first quarter after release was 172,000 and I think that is not so good. Spin is what Turbine's CEO was doing in the interview I quoted in this thread saying all sorts of things to make it sound as if this was a runaway success unparalleled by nearly any MMO before and joking (uh-hum, spin anyone) that he will get back to you when they are at 6 million. THAT IS SPIN. That is hype. That is what is worthy, in my opinon, of a bit of crow eating now that a real number is out that is not so steller.
Just to help you guys here is a comparison:
SPIN: Mr. Anderson (Turbine): Well, besides what I just said probably not. I'd love to, I'd love to, because I think people would be excited about where we are already, barely a month out of the gate. We really don't, though ... it's kind of our policy not to talk about it? People always gave us a hard time; they always said we did it because our number were bad. Now that we have even great numbers we still don't do it. (laughs) So at least maybe we're consistent. When we break ten million, I'll give you a call, how about that?
COMMENT: 172k North American box sales in the first quarter after launch doesn't seem very good, especially given the hype surrounding the game from the DEVs and fans.
See the differance? One serves to inflate reality to improve the position of the speaker - the other looks at reality and offers a simple opinion based on that reality. The spin is coming from Turbine and alot (fringe or otherwise) LotRO fans and no matter how much you want to muddy the waters to protect the image you have in your mind about some blazing success it is fairly evident to about anyone that LotRo is just not what it has been made out to be in terms of size and popularity.
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I find your making claims without backing it up with prrof even more amusing What's the old saying? Oh yeah, if you ain't got a pic or a link it never happened.
Actually, Turbine themselves seemed to suggest that they had at least a million players from reading several of their adds in gaming magazines. The line said something like "join millions of gamers" or something like that. I don't have the magazine (PC Gamer) with me now but I will check tomorrow to find out exactly what it said. Also, your still pulling numbers out of the air and making things up when you mention the EU and Asian markets. PC games don't sell that well in either market, esp. in places like Japan which is pretty much a console only market. Extrapolating numbers from NA to the rest of the world is a mistake.
Is a man not entitled to the herp of his derp?
Remember, I live in a world where juggalos and yugioh players are real things.
What is the source for that 250k number? I haven't seen an official source give a number other than the SOE Press Release that said it was less than 200k after three months of sales.
- RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right?
- FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
Ok lets see You claim as a fact that VG in one month sold more boxes then LoTRO did in its first quarter in NA?
Please Link your source. All posts i can find from SOE to one from Brad MCQ himself do not seem to agree with your numbers.
As I am sure you wouldn't just make up information to support your reasoned analysis so I look forward to the link. (Not sure why I can't find the info myself )
also you conterdict yourself (IMO) stating LoTRO had no competition when it was released but It was released on the Heels of VG, and not long after TBC which is the wow expansion. WoW being pretty much the undisputed current KING of MMO's. (I know I was still playing my free month of VG when LoTRO came out so it was competition in my book at least)
I find your making claims without backing it up with prrof even more amusing What's the old saying? Oh yeah, if you ain't got a pic or a link it never happened.
Actually, Turbine themselves seemed to suggest that they had at least a million players from reading several of their adds in gaming magazines. The line said something like "join millions of gamers" or something like that. I don't have the magazine (PC Gamer) with me now but I will check tomorrow to find out exactly what it said. Also, your still pulling numbers out of the air and making things up when you mention the EU and Asian markets. PC games don't sell that well in either market, esp. in places like Japan which is pretty much a console only market. Extrapolating numbers from NA to the rest of the world is a mistake.
They had if i remember correctly there was the million player world tour open beta. Meaning supposibly there were up to a million beta positions to try out the game weither they got that many or not is hard to say.
On a side note though companys hype their games, this is nothing new. Check out a VG Box next time your at your softwware store. Its got tons of claims 9Ie naval battles, flying controllable ariel mounts, last I heard none of which was yet actually functional in the game (ie seemless world, oh this chunking I'm experiencing must be my imagination).
Forums are no different check the AoC forum and you will find posts stating its the next WoW killer or will have 1 million subs
Sorry in advance for using VG for comparison but its the most recent MMO I played next to LoTRO
What is the source for that 250k number? I haven't seen an official source give a number other than the SOE Press Release that said it was less than 200k after three months of sales.
I thought that the press release was over 200k sold.
I'll have to look it up now.
Wish Darkfall would release.
Since 172k is the only 'official' number (and it is set in stone for crying out loud, it isn't a flexible number you can make into what you want) what else would you have us use? You on the fanboy side invent a greater Euro number to attempt to spin the fact that 172k for NA in the first quarter just isn't really that good. Show me an official number saying Euro sales where 300k or that subs worldwide are 500k or something other than what we know to be true and I will retract my conclusion that LotRO has done poorly or not so good considering the IP and all the rest. Short of that operating the facts we have it is not possible to say LotRO has lived up to the hype unless you just invent assumptions that fit your emotional attachment to the game.
Spin is not saying I read that the official NA sales for the first quarter after release was 172,000 and I think that is not so good. Spin is what Turbine's CEO was doing in the interview I quoted in this thread saying all sorts of things to make it sound as if this was a runaway success unparalleled by nearly any MMO before and joking (uh-hum, spin anyone) that he will get back to you when they are at 6 million. THAT IS SPIN. That is hype. That is what is worthy, in my opinon, of a bit of crow eating now that a real number is out that is not so steller.
Just to help you guys here is a comparison:
SPIN: Mr. Anderson (Turbine): Well, besides what I just said probably not. I'd love to, I'd love to, because I think people would be excited about where we are already, barely a month out of the gate. We really don't, though ... it's kind of our policy not to talk about it? People always gave us a hard time; they always said we did it because our number were bad. Now that we have even great numbers we still don't do it. (laughs) So at least maybe we're consistent. When we break ten million, I'll give you a call, how about that?
COMMENT: 172k North American box sales in the first quarter after launch doesn't seem very good, especially given the hype surrounding the game from the DEVs and fans.
See the differance? One serves to inflate reality to improve the position of the speaker - the other looks at reality and offers a simple opinion based on that reality. The spin is coming from Turbine and alot (fringe or otherwise) LotRO fans and no matter how much you want to muddy the waters to protect the image you have in your mind about some blazing success it is fairly evident to about anyone that LotRo is just not what it has been made out to be in terms of size and popularity.
Please read the whole post You'll notice I did mention the companies head hyping the game AKA spin. Please name one MMO company that doesn't hype its game (as I pointed out in the post yet you ignored or never bother to read. (ie becuase it didn't fit into your one sided view of LoTRO Fanbois?) and AFAIK only one game has lived up to its hype (WoW) and you willstill see hundreds of haters in different forums saying it hasn't. It seems to me perhaps you (or anyone) are unrealistly nieve if you really buy all (or even most) of the hype any company puts out.Also you seem to be stating as of today LoTRO has not sold one more box then the 172K number you continually post over and over from its first 9 weeks in NA? If you read and understand what i wrote you would have seen I didn't question the 172K number for NA release in LoTRO first 9 weeks. I simply pointed out that you seemed unwilling to accpet that any other copies have been sold overseas, or since then as your whole arguement is LoTRO is doing poorly by your standard today because of one number which is their First quarter NA Box sells. (Not including downloads?) You still state the number is set in stone like time has frozen and they haven't sold even one copy since then. It simply makes you look foolish as no one is argueing what the numbers were simply that they do not show the complete picture as of now.
You are very fond of showing the numbers of other MMO boxes sold worldwide over several months of sells and comparing them to the NA first quarter sell of LoTRO to prove your point (ie comparing apples to oranges) this is why I constantly point out you are the spinning the numbers and presenting a very baised (emotional attached) one sided case.
Please point out one post of mine anywhere, or any post in this thread stating LoTRO was a WOW killer or has 1 million subs. You say its not doing well, average at best, and possibly a failure (by way of saying it sold worse then another MMO that was recently sold when its company went belly up) You seem to be saying everyone is saying LoTRO is a blazing success. Well depends on how you rate success. Is it another WoW ? No so in that comparison maybe it is a failure. Is the company still in business and turing a profit I think so but don't have the figures just as I'm guessing neither do you.
When I start seeing you post against the hype in say the VG forum or the AoC forum then I will believe your just a person out to combat hype till then I figure your just a person with no real game to play and to much time on your hands bashing LoTRO to keep from getting too bored. .
What is the source for that 250k number? I haven't seen an official source give a number other than the SOE Press Release that said it was less than 200k after three months of sales.
I thought that the press release was over 200k sold.
I'll have to look it up now.
jackdog is bumping nothing the whole thread is about this linkwww.gamespot.com/news/6176030.html
which is about how LoTRO sold 179 K copies in N America at release on 24 April and the end of the quarter which was June 30. Not bad for 9 weeks of sales just in the N American market if you ask me.
I miss DAoC
What is the source for that 250k number? I haven't seen an official source give a number other than the SOE Press Release that said it was less than 200k after three months of sales.
I thought that the press release was over 200k sold.
I'll have to look it up now.
jackdog is bumping nothing the whole thread is about this linkwww.gamespot.com/news/6176030.html
which is about how LoTRO sold 179 K copies in N America at release on 24 April and the end of the quarter which was June 30. Not bad for 9 weeks of sales just in the N American market if you ask me.
Actually... in the interest of not providing yet another detail to be blown out of proportion, the article actually says 172k. Only 7k difference, I know... but I'm sure that'd be more than enough for some to go off on another tirade about.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
First, all I started saying is that the 172k number seemed low, even perhaps bad given the IP adn the lack of other releases and such. I made no commentary saying that was all they sold, or that sales are not continuing (other than refuting someone who said games usually sell faster over time which is just untrue - usually they sell faster around launch). I only ever got into the assumption game in responding to someone who was speculating on what the non-North American sales where (I believe I just said lets assume it was similar and extrapolated from there). In short, my only commentary that wasn't in response to others assumptions was to say that I though the 172k for NA for the quarter was not so great, even bad given the circumstances.
As if it matters, I am in a couple threads in AoC forum (ex. 1, 2) here at MMORPG.com saying I thought the whole DX10 thing might be a bunch of hype and also saying the last couple combat videos expose teh much vaunted revolutionary combat system as flawed in some key ways. I haven't posted in VG in some time but after trying that game and giving up on it for alot of obvious reasons I posted as to why I thought it was crap - the summation of which was that it was a timesink series of false challenges but again, it was a while ago. IN short, I call it like I see it and if this fall comes and goes and AoC is a let down I will have similar things to say there as I have said here. That is kind of the point of a site with forums to discuss games.
I am even here saying some not terrible things about LotRO (not raving about it as my view is negative overall but i think I fairly relate my opinion in the discussion without flaming the game). Look, opinions vary but facts are facts guys and the fact is that LotRO, like most games, has the rapid fans who overly defend and hype thier game (you can see a number of them at work in this thread). I just felt it was worth pointing out these numbers when they came out since so many discussions of the game here and elsewhere turn into these 'you such the game is perfect' type emotional debates. If you disagree that 172k in the first quarter is a bad sales number then fine, say so - but certainly we can agree that it is not a rockign great number considering the lack of other titles out before/after and the huge IP the game uses. What it sold in Europe and Asia is unknow but it is likely comporable to the NA number meaning that over the first few months the game probably sold around 350k to 400k boxes which could be anywhere from 100k to 200k subs. Not a bad start but not what I would call WoW numbers or spectacular or something that sets the game apart from everything else in the way so many fans, and turbine, has been hyping and promting it to be. That is all I am saying here - lay off the wild proclimations of it being the next greatest game ever because from the fact we have about its sales it seems anything but that is the case. The real point I was making about these numbers was not if they are terrible or great but they are likely the best it will do since it has been competition free and ALOT of big blockbuster games are coming soon. Surely LotRO will continue to sell over time but it is pretty unrealistic to expect it to sell faster in the quarters after launch and in quarters with newer and hotly anticipated games coming. time will tell and if LotRO becomes a 500k sub game then I will say I was wrong but so far that seems unrealistic given the sales numbers we saw and the coming competition and the natural decline most games suffer over time.
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All the people quoting numbers of how much LoTRO sold are quoting numbers that Gamespot came up with, the same people that started the crap that SOE BOUGHT out Flying Labs and their game Pirates of the Burning Sea, when they couldn't even get the facts straight.
If you look up Midway financial reports they DID NOT release box sales figures for the quarter, they only gave sales numbers. Gamespot is turning into a sensationalistic gaming news site who does not even look up information they are given. Point in fact, the SOE/Flying Labs BS. They specifically stated that SOE bought Flying Labs out, when it is just a publishing deal so that Flying Labs could get actual boxes out instead of the original idea of direct downloads. Look up on Midway.com and you will not find any sales figures stating how many boxes they sold.
AGAIN, Give us financial data from Turbine/Midway/Codemasters stating their exact sales figures and we might believe you, but to show you something, Gamespot originally said 71k boxes were sold for the quarter then came back and changed it by 100k just to try and cover their inept journalism.
Hell, I could send them some gaming news without facts and it would get posted as real.
Just do a google search for Midway Reports 2007 Q2 Results and see what you get. Not a single box sales figure anywhere, people putting down a game will believe anyone who they think as credible when the figures that Gamespot gave have no proof to back them up.
Here is a perfect example of why I have been arguing about this in this thread - and one posted just tonight by the biggest fanboy arguing in here that nobody is making claims of million subs type success. Quote below with link:
--> http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/post/1564212
I mean it is really too much - the guy flames me in here saying I am spinning and all that while he is off in a thread doing the very thing he says I invented as a prevalent claim by the LotRO fans. Seriously this is hard to believe. Look at what he says, he guess 150k subs here even though the sales for the whole first quarter of the game have been reported as only 172k boxes then doubles that for Europe getting to 340k subs and then just assigns China as soon to be accounting for another 700k+ subs which is just utter insanity. Wonder why I have said LotRO fans should eat some crow - CASE AND POINT.
And to the guy saying GS is inaccurate - I think the number makes sense and their explanation of the first inaccuracy seems plausible but if the number turns out to be different I would retract my conclusions. But the point about the way LotRO fans go on about the game remains as even using and accepting that number these fanboys invent crazy scenarios to justify an even crazier conclusion as shown above. The point really isn't if the number is accurate (and there is relly no reason to think it isn't), the point is how even using that number the fans make ridiculous spin out of it.
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I think it is pretty safe to say that the only game that will kill WoW is SoS (Systems of Starcraft) or WoW 2.
I also think it is pretty safe to say that LOTRO will not achieve beat WoW and that LOTRO will probably not exceed 700k subs (and that is A LOT).
And, anti-fanbois that sounds like fanbois... Thats the funniest thing ever
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I miss DAoC
No. WoW is the only western MMO that did good in China, every other western MMO crashed horribly. and I see no reason why Lotro would be any different.
Quote:
LotRO outsold WoW in the Month is was released, meaning it had a better opening month than WoW did, it also has outsold WoW every month since then...but total sales? WoW is the king there.
Quote:
Midway disclosed that LOTRO sold approx. 172,000 copies in North America during Q2, meaning through June...July's numbers won't be revealed until the Q3 earnings report. Speculation is that the game is enjoying similar success in Europe, likely placing it somewhere around 400k worldwide subscribers right now, which means it is doing very well and hasn't even launched in Asia, yet. Of course, the same that people say about WoW (how many of its 9 million subscriptions are used by gold farmers?) can be said for LOTRO, as evidenced by the amount of spam we receive.
Playing: World of Warcraft.
Played: Lord of the Rings Online, Starwars Galaxies.
Tried: Starwars the Old Republic, Everquest 2, Guild Wars, Vanguard, Age of Conan, Aion.
God almighty I wish Turbine would release their numbers of total box sales just to shut up AG!!
And LoTRO is a success and there's no way to spin it into a failure. The numbers are considered a success by everyone in the industry. And it received critical acclaim from reviewers all over the world- that in itself makes the game a success from a Developer's point of view.. The game has garnered raves universally and that has gotta make Turbine proud.
It's not a success like 8 million - but no game is going to have that kinda success again unless they copy Blizzard and cater their games to the people that have low end / stock PC's.. ...You all know that before WoW hit the scene- 250K box sales was considered a HUGE smash of a hit for a MMO? If Turbine does have 300-350k in the 2 countries so far it has launched in- that is wonderful!! Especially considering it's game requirements are much. much steeper than WoW's.
I just wanna know how many antacids AG and Gules are gonna have to pop if LoTRO wins Game of the Year for 2007 LOL!! Which many people in the industry are speculating that it will
Thanks for that reality check.
In fact, I decided to do a little investigating myself. Midway reports 2Q earnings in the PC market at $10 million. LOTRO was the only PC game released by Midway in 2Q. That means the 172k figure is utterly crap. Simply divide $10 million in revenue by 172K and you get a whopping $58 per box unit which is all but impossible.
But let's look at this a bit more in detail. 1Q 2007 figures for Midway show for the PC market $110k in revenue -- a paultry amount. Safe to say that $10 million for 2Q is almost entirely LOTRO sales (and interesting enough if you look at 2Q 2006, they have $5m in revenue with Rise and Fall release). Now what percentage of the SRP does Midway receive? Hard to say, but many years ago when I worked in retail, the store would take 50% of the SRP. So let's assume Turbine and Midway split the remaining SRP evenly. That's roughly $12 each. Now divide that into $10 million and you get roughly 800k sales. But let's say Turbine was generous and Midway gets the remaining 50%. That's $25 per box, giving us 400k sales.
Now even if you doubt this simple math (and you can find on Midway's sight these figures to verify everything I've related), you cannot doubt that the 172k figure reported by GS is profoundly wrong.
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Such stupidity is nearly beyond belief. Are you seriously suggesting that a company only has income in a quarter from its new products and therefore, if it made 10 million in a quarter that it much be from LotRO only? None of us has any idea what those sales figures entail, could be liscense revenue, could be any number of amortizations, could be they sold the big company jet for crying out loud. It is entirely speculation to even try to use such a vague and nondescript figure which is EXACTLY what I have been arguing in this thread - the LoTRO fanboys will not accept anything other than the presumed/imagined belief that LotRO is either at 1 million subs or well on its way despite ANY evidence to support that and some evidence to counter it.
Also gotta love the both sides of the coin argument. First it is that 172k NA sales is great and it means that they have 1 million subs (or will soon), then they argue that 172k is not accurate and sales are much higher. It is kind of like the old saying I didn't do it and even if I did I had good reason.
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Wow, 172k boxes sold in 3 months in NA. That is dissapointing in anyone's book for such a huge IP. Even if they get around 500k boxes sold worldwide in the first 3 months it's still dissapointing. Heck, put a LotR sticker on a napkin and it will seel like hotcakes.
Vanguard sold 250k in the first month worldwide apparently and it was bashed to hell and back (rightly so). How anyone can say 172k boxes sold in it's biggest market is a success is mind boggling.
You guys are still on about this? Everyone feel better now?
Mr Brad was babbling about selling 200k-250k boxes after the first month, was linked in a gaming site somewhere. Can't be bothered finding a link, Futurama is starting...
Anyway, doesn't change my point.
Has anyone found this number on any other site? I went to all the official sites and found NOTHING about box sales only dollar amount sales. Yet somehow Gamespot has the box sales figures? Seems odd to me.
In America I have bad teeth. If I lived in England my teeth would be perfect.
I will repeat what I posted earlier, Gamespot has posted TWO different numbers, the first was 71k then said oops we meant 172k when in fact they don't even have the numbers and made them up. Gamespot is the same site who posted that SOE BOUGHT Flying Labs when in fact it was just a publishing deal and FL had to do major damage control on fansites and their own site to correct that SOE didn't buy anything.
Gamespot is a big gaming site, but still a site where info is usually given to them through outside sources and sometimes from the companies themselves. They are like Wiki, only as reliable as the info given them or that they post and alot of times with no backing of the facts.
Also, the statements that Vanguard sold certain numbers of boxes are NOT backed up by proof. They were statements done to spin PR and were never shown from a financial statement point of view.
People have proven fact that Brad lied about ALOT of Vanguard and Sigil just like Gamespot and other sites lie about box sales numbers most of the time. They don't have the financial data to even back their figures yet they still spout gaming figures all the time. I stopped relying on Gamespot a long time ago when they decided to start charging for FREE accounts without notifying their customer and then restart charging AGAIN 2 months after I cancelled said account. They also post unreliable news about games and companies without checking for proof.