Nobody is going to decipher "doubting Thomas". Never fear... I am here and I've got your back:
Basically, Jesus was crucified and on the third day He rose again. He showed himself to Mary and all of his disciples. One of his disciples (Thomas) wanted proof that he was truly Jesus. So, Jesus told him to put his finger in the hole in the wounds on his hands from where nails were driven through. It was because he needed the proof that the expression Doubting Thomas came. It's a good read... in fact... I recommend the entire Bible
Thanks for the more detailed explanation of the biblical reference but its a bit redundent i allready explained it in my second post.
I haven't followed Darkfall as long as most people here. I can't even say I follow it closely now so much as passively catch bits of info and rumors as they float through these forums. Im fed up with rumors i got excited when i thought we would finaly have some new info from game play experience in the preview, but was disapointed with the content. That said, it seems that, if nothing else, this game has provided endless hours of entertainment for plenty of people. Sure, maybe not in the virtual world we may have expected, but I believe people must truly love both defending and attacking this game. This is the first thread ive have ever made in years of following darkfall, but i agree with you. My intention was never to attack or defend but simply ask if people where satisfied with this preview, and to express my concerns about it. Secretly im hoping to be proved wroung or have my perpective changed , but i have not seen any arguements or evidence that are persuasive so far. No matter how the thread starts; Supporting or Criticizing, they always go the same route. Intelligent discourse is quickly dismissed in favor of name calling and less thought provoking dialogue. The conversation becomes more about who can be more insulting, and who has more phantom inside information that they can't reveal sources for, then about actually seeing each other's view points and, at worst, agreeing to disagree based on the interpretation of available information. I agree with you that most posts about darkfall do degenerate quickly but i would ask you to please not cast all posters in this thread under that negative light. I have endeavored to remain polite and restrained and strictly maintain my posts content concerning the actual facts of the preview. This thread started well. An interpretation of the most recent information was presented. People responded with their thoughts and stated where they interpreted things differently. That lasted about a page or so, but it was great to read. For a moment, it was nice to see rational optimism meet with reasoned concern. I have no intention to stop debating rationaly based on facts, perhapes you could ignore people who are not? I suppose this post will get lost in the ensuing noise, but if nothing else, I hope people realize that a games success is not just in it's features, but in it's community as well. An irrational community that is willing to dismiss any critique without addressing the points of contention will quickly lose the status of "Massive Multiplayer" and will end up locked into a community of redundancy lacking in the fresh air that is critical thought. I agree with your concerns about the state of the darkfall commmunity as a whole and what the long term ramifications are. We can see the effects of the sort of communitys you are describing have had on previous games, not just post launch but also during the development stages. Either way, I'm sure this game will continue to deliver until such time as it is released. So I suppose I will just keep watching from the sideline in the hopes the maturity of the game is reflected in those who love it. I have been watching from the sideline's since i started following the game , but as i said i came out of the wood work to express my frustration with this preview that i think was a missed oportunity.
you dont undderstand he under a strict nda and they probly didnt let him say everything he wanted witch sucks but i want to be surprised hopefully otmmorrow they will enlighten us about the beta date
"You're not going to get an apology, you don't deserve one."
Do you realize how poorly it reflects on your integrity to admit to intentionally removing parts of peoples posts when quoting them in your reply's?
"You were biased, and you still are you're entire premise that you argue is illogical."
Can you explain specificaly what you think is illogical so we can have a rational debate instead of attempting to dismiss everything i say by accusing my entire premise of bieng biased and illogical?
Thanks for the link to the warcry article, it proves what i was previously saying that this was definatly a pre-aranged meeting, which raises questions about why they only showed the one year old demo when they had time to prepare for the demonstration.
"LOD is a pretty well known guild, not knowing who they are just makes you clueless. Seriously don't you know any of the bigger guilds and who they are? They do have a reputation, you probably don't know who Nurfed, Lotd, Conquest, etc. are either right?"
I fail to see how any of this is relavent to my opinions or questions i have raised concerning the preview. im talking about Asp's preview of darkfall not guilds.
"Asp went to eastern Europe on a business trip, but the country he went to was not Greece; he flew from his business trip to Greece because it was close to where he was. His guildies pitched in to cover some of his expenses that would not have been covered. Why don't you do you're own research? I am not going to spoonfeed you, why are you even asking me to prove this to you? Do you even care? It seems to me that you don't because you're arguing with someone who is close to LOD and I think I know a tad bit more then what you know."
I asked for evidence that LOD sponsored financialy Asps trip to greece you still failed to provide it.
The truth about your relationship with LOD comes out, You saying "you're arguing with someone who is close to LOD" realy shows who is biased towards LOD, and makes your accusations that i myself are biased seem totaly rediculous.
"No I am not going to do that sorry, I offered you more then enough of table scraps; nice try though."
I asked you for evidence to support this statement "Also keep in mind that in Asp's review that he wrote up to the public is tame in comparison to the Review he gave to his LOD guildmates.", you have failed to do so.
(*edit: quotes are inline and I didn't really see a need to address everything so much as a few specific things)
Polarization,
My point comes down to a simple opinion based on the sampling of Darkfall threads I have read. If a thread starts that is critical of Darkfall, the OP is cast as a troll regardless of content. If the post starts in favor of something Darkfall, the OP is cast as a fanboi regardless of content. This is not to indict any specific person, but more of a trend that seems to exist regardless of the names involved.
I agree with you that most posts about darkfall do degenerate quickly but i would ask you to please not cast all posters in this thread under that negative light.
My response was not meant to indict all people who post about DF as this type of person or that type. Additionally, I don't think I ever cast the posters in this thread in any specific light. I may not have stated it as clearly as I should have, but I was speaking in more generic terms then in reference to this specific thread. My response was meant to discuss a trend in conversational patterns when the topic is DF. Every trend has it's exceptions and I believe the original post and a number of the response are in fact exceptions to the general trend that has settled in.
I have no intention to stop debating rationaly based on facts, perhapes you could ignore people who are not?
Ignoring irrational response is one way to deal with it and generally the preferred method. My response was more an expression of frustration as I was enjoying reading the responses and dared to be optimistic that rational debate could continue as more people became involved.
We can see the effects of the sort of communitys you are describing have had on previous games, not just post launch but also during the development stages.
This is one point of concern that has also been frustrating to watch unfold. We have seen the trend in a number of other games. The fans and critics line up early and, with almost religious devotion, support or condemn any bit of information that comes out. This chips away at community and the reputation associated with the game. It would be a tragedy to see something that has so much potential crippled by a mechanic that isn't even coded into the game.
I have been watching from the sideline's since i started following the game , but as i said i came out of the wood work to express my frustration with this preview that i think was a missed oportunity.
To come back to the original topic though, as a sideline observer myself, I have to agree with your interpretation. Some of the rationalization, stated by other posters, as to why things were presented certain ways in the 'review' may be valid as well. I am fairly on the fence as to where I stand on this topic (the review) and that is why I've enjoyed reading both sides. Perhaps my venting was just a veiled appeal for others to return to reasoned debate. It's not that I am hoping one view is right or wrong so much as I am hoping for the opportunity to be optimistic about the game and it's community.
So far, the article seems to have provided a moral boost for those who see it as positive. For others it has raised more questions. I am glad someone is voicing those questions and the major believers in this game's potential should be glad for the opportunity to answer them. The only way to learn about something is to ask questions.
-mklinic
"Do something right, no one remembers. Do something wrong, no one forgets" -from No One Remembers by In Strict Confidence
I have to agree with the OT. I look forward to Darkfall dearly, but the devs are really unimpressing me with a lack of updates and "interviews" like this. Honestly, the entire thing seemed fabricated. Like this guy got on the phone with Tasos and they were like "Okay so here's what happened:"
A lot of the stuff in that article was pointless fluff, and really meaningless in general. Then when he actually wrote about the game itself, it just seemed like he was playing an ideal game with all these features that had been promised and just happened to be in this year old demo. He proceeded to list features that anybody who had followed Darkfall should have known were planned for the game. I imagine it just makes people believe its more real when they hear it from another player instead of a dev.
The FAQ at the end was also kind of fake. I mean "Q: How did you know that you had hurt your opponent?
I saw blood exactly where I hit him."
Well if you had followed Darkfall at all, you would know what supposedly happens when you get hit. It you hadn't followed Darkfall at all, what the fuck would make you ask that question? What answer would you expect? Umm... their health bar goes down?
Look I really hope this game comes out. I want to believe, but I truly cannot and this just reinforces that.
I haven't followed Darkfall as long as most people here. I can't even say I follow it closely now so much as passively catch bits of info and rumors as they float through these forums. Im fed up with rumors i got excited when i thought we would finaly have some new info from game play experience in the preview, but was disapointed with the content. I agree that content-wise this was displeasing but as he stated he knew nothing about the game which would explain why it was positive since he had no expectations about it. Its when you do have expectactions about a game is when you start to see some negative aspects. That said, it seems that, if nothing else, this game has provided endless hours of entertainment for plenty of people. Sure, maybe not in the virtual world we may have expected, but I believe people must truly love both defending and attacking this game. This is the first thread ive have ever made in years of following darkfall, but i agree with you. My intention was never to attack or defend but simply ask if people where satisfied with this preview, and to express my concerns about it. Secretly im hoping to be proved wroung or have my perpective changed , but i have not seen any arguements or evidence that are persuasive so far. It all depends how you look at it. Instead of looking at whats in it try to look at what it stands for. Good or bad, long or short this was a review of some 3rd party that has actually played DF. THAT is the best part of this review. Of course for those who follow and believe in DF its not a big deal but for those who don't means much more. No matter how the thread starts; Supporting or Criticizing, they always go the same route. Intelligent discourse is quickly dismissed in favor of name calling and less thought provoking dialogue. The conversation becomes more about who can be more insulting, and who has more phantom inside information that they can't reveal sources for, then about actually seeing each other's view points and, at worst, agreeing to disagree based on the interpretation of available information. I agree with you that most posts about darkfall do degenerate quickly but i would ask you to please not cast all posters in this thread under that negative light. I have endeavored to remain polite and restrained and strictly maintain my posts content concerning the actual facts of the preview. This thread started well. An interpretation of the most recent information was presented. People responded with their thoughts and stated where they interpreted things differently. That lasted about a page or so, but it was great to read. For a moment, it was nice to see rational optimism meet with reasoned concern. I have no intention to stop debating rationaly based on facts, perhapes you could ignore people who are not? I suppose this post will get lost in the ensuing noise, but if nothing else, I hope people realize that a games success is not just in it's features, but in it's community as well. An irrational community that is willing to dismiss any critique without addressing the points of contention will quickly lose the status of "Massive Multiplayer" and will end up locked into a community of redundancy lacking in the fresh air that is critical thought. I agree with your concerns about the state of the darkfall commmunity as a whole and what the long term ramifications are. We can see the effects of the sort of communitys you are describing have had on previous games, not just post launch but also during the development stages. Either way, I'm sure this game will continue to deliver until such time as it is released. So I suppose I will just keep watching from the sideline in the hopes the maturity of the game is reflected in those who love it. I have been watching from the sideline's since i started following the game , but as i said i came out of the wood work to express my frustration with this preview that i think was a missed oportunity. Perhaps next time could be a planned trip so they could have some more time.
Originally posted by Stormreaver Well if you had followed Darkfall at all, you would know what supposedly happens when you get hit.
As he said he didn't follow DF because he believed it to be vaporware.
lol i still cant believe some people thre calling asp a lier if iwent and visted them i bet you would clal me a lier maybe thats all asp could tell us If you would read between the lines theres some hints in there
Originally posted by Stormreaver Well if you had followed Darkfall at all, you would know what supposedly happens when you get hit.
As he said he didn't follow DF because he believed it to be vaporware.
Don't splice up my quotes please. I followed that directly by saying: even if he hadn't followed Darkfall, there is no logical reason for asking that question. What would you expect to happen beyond the norm if you hadn't already known that characters show visible injury? The answer you would expect is "Oh well the health bar goes down," therefore making it pointless question to ask.
So either A. He already knew, and was just re-stating already announced features for the game (like everything else he said about the game in general)
Or B. The question is fake, was never "asked" but was merely put in the FAQ in order to publicize.
Either way, it speaks poorly on the behalf of the speaker.
Originally posted by Stormreaver Well if you had followed Darkfall at all, you would know what supposedly happens when you get hit.
As he said he didn't follow DF because he believed it to be vaporware.
Don't splice up my quotes please. I followed that directly by saying: even if he hadn't followed Darkfall, there is no logical reason for asking that question. What would you expect to happen beyond the norm if you hadn't already known that characters show visible injury? The answer you would expect is "Oh well the health bar goes down," therefore making it pointless question to ask.
So either A. He already knew, and was just re-stating already announced features for the game (like everything else he said about the game in general)
Or B. The question is fake, was never "asked" but was merely put in the FAQ in order to publicize.
Either way, it speaks poorly on the behalf of the speaker.
In some games blood doesnt flow out when you hit someone and perhaps he was telling them about a small feature that he may like.
Well its pointless to complain about something that is pointless because of pointless-ness and because it is pointless to complain about it being pointless it makes this whole post hypocritical.
Well when you don't know anything about the game what are you supposed to tell them? he said what he found intresting and what most people don't realize was that this whole review was optional from the start and one should be thankful that it was even posted.
Even if it was never asked by him it could have been asked by his guildmates. Which wouldn't make the questions fake. It would also make his blood statement not pointless.
Explain to me how it speaks poorly on the speaker?
yea and alot of you guys are calling the devs liers and saying the features wont be in well this show there keeping to there word just wish he would said the sieges where in place 2 but i dont know whta feature where missing in 2006
lol i still cant believe some people thre calling asp a lier if iwent and visted them i bet you would clal me a lier maybe thats all asp could tell us If you would read between the lines theres some hints in there
ITS CALLED A NDA
I don't think anyone has really called Asp a liar so much as stated the review did not provide much substance beyond what is already easy to find without the writeup. That said, supposing any writer did sign an NDA, the typical protocol would be to state as much early on so the reader can understand the limitations of what will be discussed. If he was under NDA and was merely there to confirm there was a company and something existed, then labeling the article "Asp's Darkfall full preview and Q&A!" (as found at http://www.lordsofdeath.com/www/?p=12) is a bit misleading. As it stands a search of the article finds no instance of the term "NDA" or the word "disclosure". There is also no instance of the word "talk" in such a way as to state he was limited in what he was allowed to talk about. So with no indication that he was bound by such restrictions, one would assume the article would attempt to live up to it's title. Hence, a thread like this which addresses the fact the article comes no where near the title's claims.
Now, it's completely reasonable that in my reading, I missed something. If I did, by all means point it out. I have no problem being wrong and would rather be corrected if I am. Otherwise, if my interpretation is correct, then saying there is an NDA (while likely common practice) is merely speculation and not something that can be proven by the article.
As far as questions about "how do you know if you hurt an opponent?"; I think those are excused by his 'Internet Cafe Recap' (found at http://www.lordsofdeath.com/www/?p=10). In that article he pretty much states he was unprepared and that some of his questions may have appeared stupid (as he stated it). In that, I have no reason to doubt Asp's good intentions. However, I can understand the frustration of people who expected to get more information about the state of things. In my reading, it's a nice little article to keep people interested, and that's the purpose it serves.
-mklinic
"Do something right, no one remembers. Do something wrong, no one forgets" -from No One Remembers by In Strict Confidence
I noticed there’s a contradiction between the reasons for Asp only playing the one year old build if you look at the warcry journal and compare it to Asp’s preview.
From the latest warcry journal
“To this end, we changed our version control system and the build and integrity check servers need to be updated to the new version before we can get our build up early next week so we can resume the internal testing. In plain English, servers are down.”
“We were hoping to maybe give him a small beta preview but he couldn't delay his visit until Monday for our beta build to be up again.”
Ok this gives the impression there’s no major difficulty’s expected just describing part of the normal development process if he had visited on Monday he would have been able to play the current beta version with no problems.
But from Asp’s preview
“Since the most current release wasn’t stable they set me up with a stable version from last year.”
“They seemed to indicate that they hoped for this build to reach stability by the end of October.”
Seems like a contradiction how could they say that Asp would have been able to play the latest beta version with no problems if he postponed his visit until Monday purely because the servers are down, but then say when he gets there the reason are stability problems?.
You are too pessimistic. Can you go into more detail or are you going to attmept to dismiss everything said as being too pessimistic without any effort to demonstration why? I am sure that the game is very well underway Could you possibley provide any reasons or evidence to support your opinion? and there is no reason for you to be so upset. Again, care to explain why you feel that non of the issues highlighted are not cause for concern?
I've been following this game for a while and would like to try it, if it comes out. The review by Asp wasn't informative at all. It seems strange to me that they would let a guy come see their game just because he was in town. I'm sure if I went there, they wouldn't let me see it. Why would they let only one guy in? Wouldn't it serve them better to have multiple people come in, sign NDA's, and then let them see a close to finished version? It just doesn't add up. If you think it through logically, assuming you know some of the history of the company, it makes no sense.
Very little information is given out during it's long development cycle.
The information they do give out seems either old (screenshots/videos) or just a rehash of the Q&A.
They are very secretive. Few, if any, people outside of the devlopers have seen it. I would assume that they let the prospective publishers see it, but then again they may not let them see everything.
People are starting to lose hope/interest in the game because they think it's vaporware.
More articles to try and confirm that the game is coming out.
Suddenly, they allow Asp to see the game. He gives a rehash of old information.
A few questions should be asked here.
Who is Asp? Sure he's a clan (guild) leader, but who is he really?
Why did they allow him to see it, and not others? Can't be that he was just in the area. If that were the case, some of the real big fanboys would go and visit them just to get a sneak peak. Also, professionals would go and look into it too, maybe acting like they're fanboys.
Is this just a publicity stunt? The game has nothing to lose at this point by pulling some sort of stunt, but they do have a lot to gain. If they generate more interest, they may be able to pull off getting a publisher or whatever else they need to finish the game. The more people that want it, the more they can show investors/publishers that they will make money off of it.
Does Asp work for them in any respect? Is he related?
I'm not calling Asp a liar, but it seems fishy. At this point, what do they have to lose by letting people see how far they are in the development of the game? I'm sure that they would gain more than they would lose.
Who is Asp? Sure he's a clan (guild) leader, but who is he really?
He's a member of a prominent well known guild.
Why did they allow him to see it, and not others? Can't be that he was just in the area. If that were the case, some of the real big fanboys would go and visit them just to get a sneak peak. Also, professionals would go and look into it too, maybe acting like they're fanboys.
The only other person that visited them and had access to DF was a member of another guild The Combine and that was a few years ago. I don't think they let anyone just in there, you have to be a part of a older more established guild or part of an organization.
Does Asp work for them in any respect? Is he related?
No he's not related to any of the Developers and does not work for Aventurine.
I'm not calling Asp a liar, but it seems fishy. At this point, what do they have to lose by letting people see how far they are in the development of the game? I'm sure that they would gain more than they would lose.
Actually you did assume Asp was a liar, but if you bothered to check up on him and the guild he represents you would know that they have been around for well over 10 years. By the way what do you mean they never let people see how far they are in development? Didint Asp just go there? A member of The Combine also went there to check up on them.
You guys are coming up with conspiracy theories trying to discredit LOD which I think is funny, why not take Asp at his word?
Do you realize how poorly it reflects on your integrity to admit to intentionally removing parts of peoples posts when quoting them in your reply's?
I am not here to debate you, that was your assumption when you went off on a rant trying to prove me wrong.
Can you explain specificaly what you think is illogical so we can have a rational debate instead of attempting to dismiss everything i say by accusing my entire premise of bieng biased and illogical?
Thanks for the link to the warcry article, it proves what i was previously saying that this was definatly a pre-aranged meeting, which raises questions about why they only showed the one year old demo when they had time to prepare for the demonstration.
The reason I posted that article is to show you that there was a reason why Asp only had a chance to play the older build. You're still not getting it, I gave you a reason and you dismissed it by trying to somehow conjure this up into a conspiracy theory; he could not delay the trip mainly for business reasons so he only got to play the older build.
Remember what you asked me? Here I will help you troll. Can you provide evidence for this? he does not say they asked him to delay the trip in the preview. THis is what you asked, you wanted evidance so I posted and gave you a link that proved my point and not yours.
YOU ARE BUSTED and yes you are a Troll.
I fail to see how any of this is relavent to my opinions or questions i have raised concerning the preview. im talking about Asp's preview of darkfall not guilds.
You dismissed his preview and you found Asp to not be credible, also you did not know who LOD was and the reason I mentioned them is because guilds that have been around for a long time do have a status in he community.
I asked for evidence that LOD sponsored financialy Asps trip to greece you still failed to provide it.
The truth about your relationship with LOD comes out, You saying "you're arguing with someone who is close to LOD" realy shows who is biased towards LOD, and makes your accusations that i myself are biased seem totaly rediculous.
Asking for evidance of financial support from me about the LOD trip makes you a Troll, and apparently this is what you are what do you want? You want me to post copies of checks? Silly silly boy, like i said before your arguments in thread are Troll arguments you're here to bait people and not listen to what they are telling you.
I asked you for evidence to support this statement "Also keep in mind that in Asp's review that he wrote up to the public is tame in comparison to the Review he gave to his LOD guildmates.", you have failed to do so.
Sad sad troll, why ask me for evidance I am not going to give it to you. You're not LOD as far as I know, and you're not associated with guilds that are close to LOD either so why bother. I don't have to prove anything to you, you have no credibility you have ZERO do you understand?
Find something better to do then to bait people, or better yet sign up and create another account to troll with since the one that you are using was already exposed.
“To this end, we changed our version control system and the build and integrity check servers need to be updated to the new version before we can get our build up early next week so we can resume the internal testing. In plain English, servers are down.” “We were hoping to maybe give him a small beta preview but he couldn't delay his visit until Monday for our beta build to be up again.”
“Since the most current release wasn’t stable they set me up with a stable version from last year.” “They seemed to indicate that they hoped for this build to reach stability by the end of October.”
Seems like a contradiction how could they say that Asp would have been able to play the latest beta version with no problems if he postponed his visit until Monday purely because the servers are down, but then say when he gets there the reason are stability problems?.
Ok this gives the impression there’s no major difficulty’s expected just describing part of the normal development process if he had visited on Monday he would have been able to play the current beta version with no problems. But from Asp’s preview
I noticed there’s a contradiction between the reasons for Asp only playing the one year old build if you look at the warcry journal and compare it to Asp’s preview. From the latest warcry journal
Contradiction? Perhaps but It doesnt have to be 100% stable to give a person a small preview. If it went through a problem which made it unstable enough to make it unplayable and they could fix it by monday than i see no contradiction. Also you assume that it isn't the server that is making it unstable which could be the problem.
Originally posted by Questionable Contradiction? Perhaps but It doesnt have to be 100% stable to give a person a small preview. Exactly one of the points i was trying to make earlier, why not just show him the latest beta or any previous version of beta even if it has stability problems instead of the one year old demo?
If it went through a problem which made it unstable enough to make it unplayable and they could fix it by monday than i see no contradiction. I personally still see at least a discrepancy if not a contradiction, in the latest warcry dev update he does not mention any problems or anything about stability issue's he simply states that the servers are down but will be back up on monday, and that Asp could of played the beta if he had postponed his visit. But when Asp arrives they say the reason is stability problems, seems like they are not disclosing everything.
Also you assume that it isn't the server that is making it unstable which could be the problem. If the server is the problem why did they not simply tell Asp that instad of saying stability problems, and why did they not mention server problems when the latest dev journal gives the impression the servers are only down as part of the routine development process?
From the latest warcry update
"If there's an interesting development it's that we've narrowed in on a specific beta date and we should be announcing it very soon, right after we make sure that a couple of conditions are met."
Could one of the conditions that need to be met be resolving the stability problems with the beta build that are severe enough to prevent the developers from thinking it was advantageous to show it to Asp or anyone else?
From Asp's preview
"Right now they are almost done with a new build that might be a candidate for beta. They seemed to indicate that they hoped for this build to reach stability by the end of October. While I didn’t get confirmation (not that I can reveal) that this could in fact be the beta version, I really got the feeling that this could be the case. Why do I believe this? The guys were talking with confidence that the game could be released in 2008 and, from what I’ve seen, I believe them."
Is it realistic for Asp to think that this build will be stabile enough by the end of October if the stability problems are severe enough to of prevented him seeing it or for anyone to of seen any version of the beta build for the last year?
"Additionally, they talked about different publishers and difficulties in the whole process of getting a game published as if this was part of the hold up."
Could these difficulty’s be related to the stability problems they have with there beta and that they have only been able to demonstrate the demo build to publishers that appears to only show basic gameplay but has non of the major features implemented?
I've been following this game for a while and would like to try it, if it comes out. Me too, despite what acusations people are making about my motives. The review by Asp wasn't informative at all. I agree, even to people with only a casual interest in the game. It seems strange to me that they would let a guy come see their game just because he was in town. I find this supicious also, seems members of guilds have a much better chance of meeting the developers. I'm sure if I went there, they wouldn't let me see it. I think your right. Why would they let only one guy in? Possibly becuase its easyer to control positively the coverage they recieve Wouldn't it serve them better to have multiple people come in, sign NDA's, and then let them see a close to finished version? Of course, like most reputable developers do for games in beta. It just doesn't add up. If you think it through logically, assuming you know some of the history of the company, it makes no sense. I find that theres alot of things that dont make sense concerning this preview and the companys history. Very little information is given out during it's long development cycle. I think everyone can agree with that no matter what ones posistion is. The information they do give out seems either old (screenshots/videos) or just a rehash of the Q&A. Seems like no one can contend that fact either. They are very secretive. This is very detrimental in my opinion it encourages people to speculate. Few, if any, people outside of the devlopers have seen it. I would assume that they let the prospective publishers see it, but then again they may not let them see everything. I think we can deduce certain things from the fact that they have failed to get a publisher, i cannot understand what reason they would choose not to show everything to a prospective publisher unless it reflected detrimentaly. People are starting to lose hope/interest in the game because they think it's vaporware. I think people have been feeling that for a long time over the years and not just starting too now. More articles to try and confirm that the game is coming out. We seem to get alot of those but they contain very little new information or definate facts or dates. Suddenly, they allow Asp to see the game. He gives a rehash of old information. A few questions should be asked here. Thats the reason why i made the OP, regardless of the accusations made. Who is Asp? Sure he's a clan (guild) leader, but who is he really? I think those of us not familier with Asp or his guild can only look at the guild website or read what information posters have presented and draw are own conclustions from them. Why did they allow him to see it, and not others? Can't be that he was just in the area. If that were the case, some of the real big fanboys would go and visit them just to get a sneak peak. Also, professionals would go and look into it too, maybe acting like they're fanboys. I think its becuase they have more control over the information released by allowing a member of a PvP guild that is allready positively predesposed to the concepts of the game, and by giving preferential treatment and exclusive access they can encourage a faveroble outcome. Is this just a publicity stunt? The game has nothing to lose at this point by pulling some sort of stunt, but they do have a lot to gain. If they generate more interest, they may be able to pull off getting a publisher or whatever else they need to finish the game. The more people that want it, the more they can show investors/publishers that they will make money off of it. This is a posiblity but im not sure if we can be sure. Does Asp work for them in any respect? Is he related? I very much doubt this, i think he genuinely is not directly related to the darkfall developers. I'm not calling Asp a liar, but it seems fishy. At this point, what do they have to lose by letting people see how far they are in the development of the game? I'm sure that they would gain more than they would lose. I also fail to understand why they did not show anything except for the one year old demo that we have allready seen in the videos and screen shots, this just encourages specualtion about the true state of there development.
"Additionally, they talked about different publishers and difficulties in the whole process of getting a game published as if this was part of the hold up."
Could these difficulty’s be related to the stability problems they have with there beta and that they have only been able to demonstrate the demo build to publishers that appears to only show basic gameplay but has non of the major features implemented?
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I think we have a winner. Have you ever SEEN any of the major gameplay features in action? City sieges and dynamic destruction / building for example? I sure haven't..... AoC has already shown that in one siege movie for example working as intended...
Look at this point , I don't care if you're a die hard fanboy or just a critic , it's pretty obvious to see that they are having problems somewhere otherwise they would of been in a closed public beta a long time ago AND had a publisher signed up. Whether you want to believe it or not.... it's just how it be....
In my personal opinion I don't think Darkfall will ever get a Publisher. Not only because it's probably not up to par in most publishers eyes for todays MMO market but also because in reality Darkfall wouldn't sell even remotely close to 30,000 copies in todays market which every publisher out there would consider to be a complete failure.
Publishers want 200,000 + copies sold and that just would never happen with DF so it's just not worth their time and money investment.
Comments
Thanks for the more detailed explanation of the biblical reference but its a bit redundent i allready explained it in my second post.
"You're not going to get an apology, you don't deserve one."
Do you realize how poorly it reflects on your integrity to admit to intentionally removing parts of peoples posts when quoting them in your reply's?
"You were biased, and you still are you're entire premise that you argue is illogical."
Can you explain specificaly what you think is illogical so we can have a rational debate instead of attempting to dismiss everything i say by accusing my entire premise of bieng biased and illogical?
Thanks for the link to the warcry article, it proves what i was previously saying that this was definatly a pre-aranged meeting, which raises questions about why they only showed the one year old demo when they had time to prepare for the demonstration.
"LOD is a pretty well known guild, not knowing who they are just makes you clueless. Seriously don't you know any of the bigger guilds and who they are? They do have a reputation, you probably don't know who Nurfed, Lotd, Conquest, etc. are either right?"
I fail to see how any of this is relavent to my opinions or questions i have raised concerning the preview. im talking about Asp's preview of darkfall not guilds.
"Asp went to eastern Europe on a business trip, but the country he went to was not Greece; he flew from his business trip to Greece because it was close to where he was. His guildies pitched in to cover some of his expenses that would not have been covered. Why don't you do you're own research? I am not going to spoonfeed you, why are you even asking me to prove this to you? Do you even care? It seems to me that you don't because you're arguing with someone who is close to LOD and I think I know a tad bit more then what you know."
I asked for evidence that LOD sponsored financialy Asps trip to greece you still failed to provide it.
The truth about your relationship with LOD comes out, You saying "you're arguing with someone who is close to LOD" realy shows who is biased towards LOD, and makes your accusations that i myself are biased seem totaly rediculous.
"No I am not going to do that sorry, I offered you more then enough of table scraps; nice try though."
I asked you for evidence to support this statement "Also keep in mind that in Asp's review that he wrote up to the public is tame in comparison to the Review he gave to his LOD guildmates.", you have failed to do so.
(*edit: quotes are inline and I didn't really see a need to address everything so much as a few specific things)
Polarization,
My point comes down to a simple opinion based on the sampling of Darkfall threads I have read. If a thread starts that is critical of Darkfall, the OP is cast as a troll regardless of content. If the post starts in favor of something Darkfall, the OP is cast as a fanboi regardless of content. This is not to indict any specific person, but more of a trend that seems to exist regardless of the names involved.
I agree with you that most posts about darkfall do degenerate quickly but i would ask you to please not cast all posters in this thread under that negative light.
My response was not meant to indict all people who post about DF as this type of person or that type. Additionally, I don't think I ever cast the posters in this thread in any specific light. I may not have stated it as clearly as I should have, but I was speaking in more generic terms then in reference to this specific thread. My response was meant to discuss a trend in conversational patterns when the topic is DF. Every trend has it's exceptions and I believe the original post and a number of the response are in fact exceptions to the general trend that has settled in.
I have no intention to stop debating rationaly based on facts, perhapes you could ignore people who are not?
Ignoring irrational response is one way to deal with it and generally the preferred method. My response was more an expression of frustration as I was enjoying reading the responses and dared to be optimistic that rational debate could continue as more people became involved.
We can see the effects of the sort of communitys you are describing have had on previous games, not just post launch but also during the development stages.
This is one point of concern that has also been frustrating to watch unfold. We have seen the trend in a number of other games. The fans and critics line up early and, with almost religious devotion, support or condemn any bit of information that comes out. This chips away at community and the reputation associated with the game. It would be a tragedy to see something that has so much potential crippled by a mechanic that isn't even coded into the game.
I have been watching from the sideline's since i started following the game , but as i said i came out of the wood work to express my frustration with this preview that i think was a missed oportunity.
To come back to the original topic though, as a sideline observer myself, I have to agree with your interpretation. Some of the rationalization, stated by other posters, as to why things were presented certain ways in the 'review' may be valid as well. I am fairly on the fence as to where I stand on this topic (the review) and that is why I've enjoyed reading both sides. Perhaps my venting was just a veiled appeal for others to return to reasoned debate. It's not that I am hoping one view is right or wrong so much as I am hoping for the opportunity to be optimistic about the game and it's community.
So far, the article seems to have provided a moral boost for those who see it as positive. For others it has raised more questions. I am glad someone is voicing those questions and the major believers in this game's potential should be glad for the opportunity to answer them. The only way to learn about something is to ask questions.
-mklinic
"Do something right, no one remembers.
Do something wrong, no one forgets"
-from No One Remembers by In Strict Confidence
I have to agree with the OT. I look forward to Darkfall dearly, but the devs are really unimpressing me with a lack of updates and "interviews" like this. Honestly, the entire thing seemed fabricated. Like this guy got on the phone with Tasos and they were like "Okay so here's what happened:"
A lot of the stuff in that article was pointless fluff, and really meaningless in general. Then when he actually wrote about the game itself, it just seemed like he was playing an ideal game with all these features that had been promised and just happened to be in this year old demo. He proceeded to list features that anybody who had followed Darkfall should have known were planned for the game. I imagine it just makes people believe its more real when they hear it from another player instead of a dev.
The FAQ at the end was also kind of fake. I mean "Q: How did you know that you had hurt your opponent?
I saw blood exactly where I hit him."
Well if you had followed Darkfall at all, you would know what supposedly happens when you get hit. It you hadn't followed Darkfall at all, what the fuck would make you ask that question? What answer would you expect? Umm... their health bar goes down?
Look I really hope this game comes out. I want to believe, but I truly cannot and this just reinforces that.
As he said he didn't follow DF because he believed it to be vaporware.
ITS CALLED A NDA
As he said he didn't follow DF because he believed it to be vaporware.
Don't splice up my quotes please. I followed that directly by saying: even if he hadn't followed Darkfall, there is no logical reason for asking that question. What would you expect to happen beyond the norm if you hadn't already known that characters show visible injury? The answer you would expect is "Oh well the health bar goes down," therefore making it pointless question to ask.
So either A. He already knew, and was just re-stating already announced features for the game (like everything else he said about the game in general)
Or B. The question is fake, was never "asked" but was merely put in the FAQ in order to publicize.
Either way, it speaks poorly on the behalf of the speaker.
As he said he didn't follow DF because he believed it to be vaporware.
Don't splice up my quotes please. I followed that directly by saying: even if he hadn't followed Darkfall, there is no logical reason for asking that question. What would you expect to happen beyond the norm if you hadn't already known that characters show visible injury? The answer you would expect is "Oh well the health bar goes down," therefore making it pointless question to ask.
So either A. He already knew, and was just re-stating already announced features for the game (like everything else he said about the game in general)
Or B. The question is fake, was never "asked" but was merely put in the FAQ in order to publicize.
Either way, it speaks poorly on the behalf of the speaker.
In some games blood doesnt flow out when you hit someone and perhaps he was telling them about a small feature that he may like.
Well its pointless to complain about something that is pointless because of pointless-ness and because it is pointless to complain about it being pointless it makes this whole post hypocritical.
Well when you don't know anything about the game what are you supposed to tell them? he said what he found intresting and what most people don't realize was that this whole review was optional from the start and one should be thankful that it was even posted.
Even if it was never asked by him it could have been asked by his guildmates. Which wouldn't make the questions fake. It would also make his blood statement not pointless.
Explain to me how it speaks poorly on the speaker?
yea and alot of you guys are calling the devs liers and saying the features wont be in well this show there keeping to there word just wish he would said the sieges where in place 2 but i dont know whta feature where missing in 2006
I don't think anyone has really called Asp a liar so much as stated the review did not provide much substance beyond what is already easy to find without the writeup. That said, supposing any writer did sign an NDA, the typical protocol would be to state as much early on so the reader can understand the limitations of what will be discussed. If he was under NDA and was merely there to confirm there was a company and something existed, then labeling the article "Asp's Darkfall full preview and Q&A!" (as found at http://www.lordsofdeath.com/www/?p=12) is a bit misleading. As it stands a search of the article finds no instance of the term "NDA" or the word "disclosure". There is also no instance of the word "talk" in such a way as to state he was limited in what he was allowed to talk about. So with no indication that he was bound by such restrictions, one would assume the article would attempt to live up to it's title. Hence, a thread like this which addresses the fact the article comes no where near the title's claims.
Now, it's completely reasonable that in my reading, I missed something. If I did, by all means point it out. I have no problem being wrong and would rather be corrected if I am. Otherwise, if my interpretation is correct, then saying there is an NDA (while likely common practice) is merely speculation and not something that can be proven by the article.
As far as questions about "how do you know if you hurt an opponent?"; I think those are excused by his 'Internet Cafe Recap' (found at http://www.lordsofdeath.com/www/?p=10). In that article he pretty much states he was unprepared and that some of his questions may have appeared stupid (as he stated it). In that, I have no reason to doubt Asp's good intentions. However, I can understand the frustration of people who expected to get more information about the state of things. In my reading, it's a nice little article to keep people interested, and that's the purpose it serves.
-mklinic
"Do something right, no one remembers.
Do something wrong, no one forgets"
-from No One Remembers by In Strict Confidence
I noticed there’s a contradiction between the reasons for Asp only playing the one year old build if you look at the warcry journal and compare it to Asp’s preview.
From the latest warcry journal
“To this end, we changed our version control system and the build and integrity check servers need to be updated to the new version before we can get our build up early next week so we can resume the internal testing. In plain English, servers are down.”
“We were hoping to maybe give him a small beta preview but he couldn't delay his visit until Monday for our beta build to be up again.”
Ok this gives the impression there’s no major difficulty’s expected just describing part of the normal development process if he had visited on Monday he would have been able to play the current beta version with no problems.
But from Asp’s preview
“Since the most current release wasn’t stable they set me up with a stable version from last year.”
“They seemed to indicate that they hoped for this build to reach stability by the end of October.”
Seems like a contradiction how could they say that Asp would have been able to play the latest beta version with no problems if he postponed his visit until Monday purely because the servers are down, but then say when he gets there the reason are stability problems?.
I can't wait for this game to come out!
You are too pessimistic. I am sure that the game is very well underway and there is no reason for you to be so upset.
I've been following this game for a while and would like to try it, if it comes out. The review by Asp wasn't informative at all. It seems strange to me that they would let a guy come see their game just because he was in town. I'm sure if I went there, they wouldn't let me see it. Why would they let only one guy in? Wouldn't it serve them better to have multiple people come in, sign NDA's, and then let them see a close to finished version? It just doesn't add up. If you think it through logically, assuming you know some of the history of the company, it makes no sense.
Very little information is given out during it's long development cycle.
The information they do give out seems either old (screenshots/videos) or just a rehash of the Q&A.
They are very secretive. Few, if any, people outside of the devlopers have seen it. I would assume that they let the prospective publishers see it, but then again they may not let them see everything.
People are starting to lose hope/interest in the game because they think it's vaporware.
More articles to try and confirm that the game is coming out.
Suddenly, they allow Asp to see the game. He gives a rehash of old information.
A few questions should be asked here.
Who is Asp? Sure he's a clan (guild) leader, but who is he really?
Why did they allow him to see it, and not others? Can't be that he was just in the area. If that were the case, some of the real big fanboys would go and visit them just to get a sneak peak. Also, professionals would go and look into it too, maybe acting like they're fanboys.
Is this just a publicity stunt? The game has nothing to lose at this point by pulling some sort of stunt, but they do have a lot to gain. If they generate more interest, they may be able to pull off getting a publisher or whatever else they need to finish the game. The more people that want it, the more they can show investors/publishers that they will make money off of it.
Does Asp work for them in any respect? Is he related?
I'm not calling Asp a liar, but it seems fishy. At this point, what do they have to lose by letting people see how far they are in the development of the game? I'm sure that they would gain more than they would lose.
Who is Asp? Sure he's a clan (guild) leader, but who is he really?
He's a member of a prominent well known guild.
Why did they allow him to see it, and not others? Can't be that he was just in the area. If that were the case, some of the real big fanboys would go and visit them just to get a sneak peak. Also, professionals would go and look into it too, maybe acting like they're fanboys.
The only other person that visited them and had access to DF was a member of another guild The Combine and that was a few years ago. I don't think they let anyone just in there, you have to be a part of a older more established guild or part of an organization.
Does Asp work for them in any respect? Is he related?
No he's not related to any of the Developers and does not work for Aventurine.
I'm not calling Asp a liar, but it seems fishy. At this point, what do they have to lose by letting people see how far they are in the development of the game? I'm sure that they would gain more than they would lose.
Actually you did assume Asp was a liar, but if you bothered to check up on him and the guild he represents you would know that they have been around for well over 10 years. By the way what do you mean they never let people see how far they are in development? Didint Asp just go there? A member of The Combine also went there to check up on them.
You guys are coming up with conspiracy theories trying to discredit LOD which I think is funny, why not take Asp at his word?
Do you realize how poorly it reflects on your integrity to admit to intentionally removing parts of peoples posts when quoting them in your reply's?
I am not here to debate you, that was your assumption when you went off on a rant trying to prove me wrong.
Can you explain specificaly what you think is illogical so we can have a rational debate instead of attempting to dismiss everything i say by accusing my entire premise of bieng biased and illogical?
Thanks for the link to the warcry article, it proves what i was previously saying that this was definatly a pre-aranged meeting, which raises questions about why they only showed the one year old demo when they had time to prepare for the demonstration.
The reason I posted that article is to show you that there was a reason why Asp only had a chance to play the older build. You're still not getting it, I gave you a reason and you dismissed it by trying to somehow conjure this up into a conspiracy theory; he could not delay the trip mainly for business reasons so he only got to play the older build.
Remember what you asked me? Here I will help you troll. Can you provide evidence for this? he does not say they asked him to delay the trip in the preview. THis is what you asked, you wanted evidance so I posted and gave you a link that proved my point and not yours.
YOU ARE BUSTED and yes you are a Troll.
I fail to see how any of this is relavent to my opinions or questions i have raised concerning the preview. im talking about Asp's preview of darkfall not guilds.
You dismissed his preview and you found Asp to not be credible, also you did not know who LOD was and the reason I mentioned them is because guilds that have been around for a long time do have a status in he community.
I asked for evidence that LOD sponsored financialy Asps trip to greece you still failed to provide it.
The truth about your relationship with LOD comes out, You saying "you're arguing with someone who is close to LOD" realy shows who is biased towards LOD, and makes your accusations that i myself are biased seem totaly rediculous.
Asking for evidance of financial support from me about the LOD trip makes you a Troll, and apparently this is what you are what do you want? You want me to post copies of checks? Silly silly boy, like i said before your arguments in thread are Troll arguments you're here to bait people and not listen to what they are telling you.
I asked you for evidence to support this statement "Also keep in mind that in Asp's review that he wrote up to the public is tame in comparison to the Review he gave to his LOD guildmates.", you have failed to do so.
Sad sad troll, why ask me for evidance I am not going to give it to you. You're not LOD as far as I know, and you're not associated with guilds that are close to LOD either so why bother. I don't have to prove anything to you, you have no credibility you have ZERO do you understand?
Find something better to do then to bait people, or better yet sign up and create another account to troll with since the one that you are using was already exposed.
Contradiction? Perhaps but It doesnt have to be 100% stable to give a person a small preview. If it went through a problem which made it unstable enough to make it unplayable and they could fix it by monday than i see no contradiction. Also you assume that it isn't the server that is making it unstable which could be the problem.
im pretty much done argue with the people here there to thick headed to understand it any ways be better with out them not playing darkfall anyways
From the latest warcry update
"If there's an interesting development it's that we've narrowed in on a specific beta date and we should be announcing it very soon, right after we make sure that a couple of conditions are met."
Could one of the conditions that need to be met be resolving the stability problems with the beta build that are severe enough to prevent the developers from thinking it was advantageous to show it to Asp or anyone else?
From Asp's preview
"Right now they are almost done with a new build that might be a candidate for beta. They seemed to indicate that they hoped for this build to reach stability by the end of October. While I didn’t get confirmation (not that I can reveal) that this could in fact be the beta version, I really got the feeling that this could be the case. Why do I believe this? The guys were talking with confidence that the game could be released in 2008 and, from what I’ve seen, I believe them."
Is it realistic for Asp to think that this build will be stabile enough by the end of October if the stability problems are severe enough to of prevented him seeing it or for anyone to of seen any version of the beta build for the last year?
"Additionally, they talked about different publishers and difficulties in the whole process of getting a game published as if this was part of the hold up."
Could these difficulty’s be related to the stability problems they have with there beta and that they have only been able to demonstrate the demo build to publishers that appears to only show basic gameplay but has non of the major features implemented?
"Additionally, they talked about different publishers and difficulties in the whole process of getting a game published as if this was part of the hold up."
Could these difficulty’s be related to the stability problems they have with there beta and that they have only been able to demonstrate the demo build to publishers that appears to only show basic gameplay but has non of the major features implemented?
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I think we have a winner. Have you ever SEEN any of the major gameplay features in action? City sieges and dynamic destruction / building for example? I sure haven't..... AoC has already shown that in one siege movie for example working as intended...
Look at this point , I don't care if you're a die hard fanboy or just a critic , it's pretty obvious to see that they are having problems somewhere otherwise they would of been in a closed public beta a long time ago AND had a publisher signed up. Whether you want to believe it or not.... it's just how it be....
In my personal opinion I don't think Darkfall will ever get a Publisher. Not only because it's probably not up to par in most publishers eyes for todays MMO market but also because in reality Darkfall wouldn't sell even remotely close to 30,000 copies in todays market which every publisher out there would consider to be a complete failure.
Publishers want 200,000 + copies sold and that just would never happen with DF so it's just not worth their time and money investment.