I love SOE

Dlore

Originally posted by alyndale

Originally posted by Dlore

Originally posted by alyndale


Ok Delore what exactly is it that SoE does that you do not care for?  I am really very curious as it has been a very long time since I have seen a "haters" reasons that carried any weight with me.  Sounds to me like lip service.
 Yeah basically, I suppose if there is something that pisses you off about they a gaming company does business you should stay away and in that I respect you.  But, I find it very difficult to respect or fathom anyone with some sort of empty greivence towards a gaming company.

 

Sorry, I got my 360 box for my 5TH repair for my 360 and I had to get it all ready, I guess HATE was a strong term even for me, I do not care for their games because when I played Pre-CU, I was in the protest for the game, about 2/3 of the players joined to protest, they didnt even care for that! I also do not care for them because when I came for my free months, guess what? No friends! NO FRIENDS AT ALL TO PLAY WITH!

 

Dlore how do you know the number of protesters were at 2/3?  When we banter about numbers, we really should have some sort of backup as evidence of proof.  This is why I don't buy into these rants.

Bah, alyndale are you really getting mad because I might have been of by just a few thousand or hundred players?

Or are you made because you cant play SWG Pre-CU because it was too hard and you enjoyed NGE because it was simplier for you? Ever thought of that? Sometimes people get mad over just the darnest things

Da1e

Originally posted by ronan32


 
the reason why the points i have made are the same as others have made is because they are the truth..how many ways can you tell the truth.That's like saying someone who wrote about the world war was just copying someone else's opinion....this just proves my point that you cant come up with a counter argument because all you can do is make childish remarks and say tjings like "i'm not even acknowledging your posts" and make it seem like everyones point is valid except mine...i obviously got to you in some way and your reaction is to try defame my points,  how long have you played vanguard..a week?
please tell me why you think sony are worth defending? is it because you will have no one to play with in vanguard awwww poor baby..vanguard was supposed to be released by mircosoft..microsoft didn't like sigils vision and sony bought the publishing rights to vanguard..they released it too early and thats the reason why the servers are empty
what do i have to lose from playing vanguard for free?

 

you could have stated what you thought at the begining, not change your argument after someone else makes good points. I don't counterargue yours because I simply counterargue the person that actually said it, as they are the ones that mean it. You are just saying it, not meaning it.

You do realise you're a hypocrite right? You keep saying I make childish remarks, then come out with "is it because you will have no one to play with in vanguard awwww poor baby." ...

I'm not defending them (the point you can't seem to fathom) , I am asking complainers not to hijack other people's threads, and put their 'hate' in the official forum. But yes, I have played Vanguard for 3 weeks now, halfway into my free month, and that alone is reason enough for me to get angry when I see people like you have 'don't by SOE games' in your sig, and posts trying to sway people away from VG.

Microsoft didn't like Sigil's vision, but SOE did...you don't think being able to see a good idea is worth some credit?

from playing VG for free you are going against everything you 'believe' in, although you quite obviously are just saying it because you're embaressed that the only real reason you don't like SOE is beacuse they changed SWG for you. You lose self respect.

ronan32

Originally posted by Da1e

Originally posted by ronan32


 
the reason why the points i have made are the same as others have made is because they are the truth..how many ways can you tell the truth.That's like saying someone who wrote about the world war was just copying someone else's opinion....this just proves my point that you cant come up with a counter argument because all you can do is make childish remarks and say tjings like "i'm not even acknowledging your posts" and make it seem like everyones point is valid except mine...i obviously got to you in some way and your reaction is to try defame my points,  how long have you played vanguard..a week?
please tell me why you think sony are worth defending? is it because you will have no one to play with in vanguard awwww poor baby..vanguard was supposed to be released by mircosoft..microsoft didn't like sigils vision and sony bought the publishing rights to vanguard..they released it too early and thats the reason why the servers are empty
what do i have to lose from playing vanguard for free?

 

you could have stated what you thought at the begining, not change your argument after someone else makes good points. I don't counterargue yours because I simply counterargue the person that actually said it, as they are the ones that mean it. You are just saying it, not meaning it.

You do realise you're a hypocrite right? You keep saying I make childish remarks, then come out with "is it because you will have no one to play with in vanguard awwww poor baby." ...

I'm not defending them (the point you can't seem to fathom) , I am asking complainers not to hijack other people's threads, and put their 'hate' in the official forum. But yes, I have played Vanguard for 3 weeks now, halfway into my free month, and that alone is reason enough for me to get angry when I see people like you have 'don't by SOE games' in your sig, and posts trying to sway people away from VG.

Microsoft didn't like Sigil's vision, but SOE did...you don't think being able to see a good idea is worth some credit?

from playing VG for free you are going against everything you 'believe' in, although you quite obviously are just saying it because you're embaressed that the only real reason you don't like SOE is beacuse they changed SWG for you. You lose self respect.

 

well my opinion is my opinion and it doesn't matter what you think.

my points are the same as anyones elses on swg and vanguard because thats how it happend, i dont fabricate the truth like sony

people who play everquest will tell you why they hate sont, i can only tell why i do from my experiences with them and my experience have been the same as most people posting here..

to get through to a child sometimes you have to act childish.

you don't talk about what i said like an adult would do, you just pick parts of my posts and twist it and then add insults.

im not going against everything i believe because im not paying for it.

They did nothing to make the vision become a reality..they just released the game too early to make a quick buck.

i respect the devs from sigil who are working on vanguard to make it a better game, all sony is doing is throwing it a bone now and again.

yet time and time again you give sony the credit for trying to fix vanguard.

 

if you would like to learn more about the swg fiasco go to this link http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/185392

Da1e

Originally posted by ronan32


 
well my opinion is my opinion and it doesn't matter what you think.
my points are the same as anyones elses on swg and vanguard because thats how it happend, i dont fabricate the truth like sony
people who play everquest will tell you why they hate sont, i can only tell why i do from my experiences with them and my experience have been the same as most people posting here..
to get through to a child sometimes you have to act childish.
you don't talk about what i said like an adult would do, you just pick parts of my posts and twist it and then add insults.
im not going against everything i believe because im not paying for it.
They did nothing to make the vision become a reality..they just released the game too early to make a quick buck.
i respect the devs from sigil who are working on vanguard to make it a better game, all sony is doing is throwing it a bone now and again.
yet time and time again you give sony the credit for trying to fix vanguard.
 
if you would like to learn more about the swg fiasco go to this link http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/185392

you're primarily annoyed because your game was ruined. There's nothing I, nor you, can do, so you can either cry or get over it. No arguments, it's as simple as that, but if I see you flaming SOE or VG with no basis then I will of course reply accordingly.

I don't heard complainers from EQ actually, I never have, because they have gotten over their game being 'ruined' as you seem to think it has. you however don't realise that moving on is an option, and choose to dwell on the past. I'd be willing to bet that the ethics of the situation doesn't bother you in the slighest.

you're not paying, but you are experiencing.

Throwing a bone every so often? You think Sigil would be making the improvements if they didn't have money? maybe you should be making some anti microsoft threads because they aren't funding it? SOE are trying to fix VG, simple. to get through to a child the best method would take the role of someone that enforces discipline, eg a mother or father, rise above the childishness, not embrace it, so don't try justify your hypocracy.

I have nothing more to say to you regarding this matter. You are a very bitter person, and you are very confused. You don't really even know why you're angry. Maybe you need a good nights sleep.

alyndale

Originally posted by Dlore

Originally posted by alyndale

Originally posted by Dlore

Originally posted by alyndale


Ok Delore what exactly is it that SoE does that you do not care for?  I am really very curious as it has been a very long time since I have seen a "haters" reasons that carried any weight with me.  Sounds to me like lip service.
 Yeah basically, I suppose if there is something that pisses you off about they a gaming company does business you should stay away and in that I respect you.  But, I find it very difficult to respect or fathom anyone with some sort of empty greivence towards a gaming company.

 

Sorry, I got my 360 box for my 5TH repair for my 360 and I had to get it all ready, I guess HATE was a strong term even for me, I do not care for their games because when I played Pre-CU, I was in the protest for the game, about 2/3 of the players joined to protest, they didnt even care for that! I also do not care for them because when I came for my free months, guess what? No friends! NO FRIENDS AT ALL TO PLAY WITH!

 

Dlore how do you know the number of protesters were at 2/3?  When we banter about numbers, we really should have some sort of backup as evidence of proof.  This is why I don't buy into these rants.

Bah, alyndale are you really getting mad because I might have been of by just a few thousand or hundred players?

Or are you made because you cant play SWG Pre-CU because it was too hard and you enjoyed NGE because it was simplier for you? Ever thought of that? Sometimes people get mad over just the darnest things

 

Hmmm, do my words really sound like words of anger?  If you have been following some of the many posts I have thus far on this worn out topic, I think you'll see that it's not really anger, but more annoyance than anything else.  Simply repeating the same thing over and over agin doesn't necassarily prove anything to me.  I was out of the loop so to speak when it came to SWG, but have played EQ 2, therefore I have had dealing with people from SoE.

What I simply ask for here is some data for me to gain a bit of knowledge on why all this anger over a game?  thus far it's been nothing more than talk and I have seen these posts on this forum now for just about 2 years. 

If you can't help me with a link to an archived forum or even official documents the show there were some impropriety on the game in question, then possibly I might understand and might even be inclined to symphatize, but all i read are empty words of thoughtless anger from many.

alyndale

Originally posted by Zorgo


I approach the anti-SOE crowd with a different take.
In many many ways the arguments against SOE are legit. They are a big heartless profit grubbing business. That does motivate them to do 'underhanded' things in an attempt to make money. That does leave some people cold.
However, in the grand scheme of this world, could what SOE be doing concidered true evil? An evil which demands the type of retaliation, rebellion and antiestablishmentarianism that the anti-SOE brigade has staged?
It all boils down to this, SOE makes games. Games! Potentially there is no other product on the market more frivolous and unecessary in our lives. By definition, video games are pure escapism.
The oddest part about the anti-SOE crowd is the cause for which they fight so hard. For their 'video games'. A GAME!
There are people who daily post the evils of SOE. While they are wearing shoes that took a job from an American and put it into the hands of an oppressed 3rd world child. Double whammy, unpatriotic and encourging child labor. At the same time they are sipping on a Soda whose parent company sold fake drugs to pregnant mothers in 3rd world countries and caused irreversable physical birth defects. Not to mention that the computer's desk was built out of metal from a factory that knowingly puts employees at risk, and even figures in death benefits in its early plan because the check to OSHA would be cheaper than upgrading to safe work conditions. I won't even tell you what happened to the cow in the slaughter house before you got that fast food sitting next to the keyboard (and no I'm not vegetarian).
So essentially, what pisses me off about the anti-SOE crowd is that they have worked so hard to end an evil that is soooooo low on the priority list for most conscience consumers.
If everyone who had posted about the evils of SOE had spent that same amount of time trying to protest ACTUAL consumer evils, they could have actually made a difference.
Now the other interesting phenomenon is how these people don't transfer their aggression in an equitable way.
Ford Thunderbird was one of the coolest cars in the 50s and 60s. Ford f'd it all up in the 70s, 80s and 90s. It's back to being cool now, but have you ever seen an 83 T-bird? Good God. Ford took a great product, but because it wasn't selling as well as they hoped, they changed the body style. Sounds like SWG right? Well, how many of you spent 3 decades 'banning' Ford for the design choice they made? To people blog daily about how Ford is the most evil empire of all time for changing their cars on a regular basis? Nope, but SOE doesn't escape with the same fate by a long shot.
Yet every day companies pull the old bait and switch just like happened to SWG. As people are posting and blogging about the evils of SOE, that person is probably surrounded by a miriad of consumer products that had been altered and changed in an attempt to maximize profit. Yet all of these fly right under the radar. The SOE hater would never spend as much time flaming Ford for doing the exact same crap to their cars that SOE does to their games.
It really seems like the longest temper tantrum in the history of the world, because someone took your toy away.
Or another way of putting it: the longest cry over spilled milk in the history of the world. 'Don't cry over spilled milk'. It's an interesting saying. Inherent in the statement is that 'something bad happened', i.e. the milk spilled. Milk is good. It spilling isn't. The consequences are dire - you won't enjoy that tasty beverage. Actual bad stuff came out of spilling the milk - there was a mess to clean up. This is true of SOE and SWG also. The milk was spilled, we didn't get to enjoy the tasty beverage, and no one has still adequatel dealt with the clean up. However - the saying also teaches us to LET IT GO!. Yes it was bad, yes, it made a mess but THERE IS NO USE CRYING OVER IT. When bad things happen, the only useful thing is to be strong and move on.
It is a saying that divides adults and children. It is a phrase that divides the mature from the immature. The next time you want to tirade against  SOE, ask yourself, how long should one cry over the spilled milk? At a certain point, the milk goes sour. The mature adult moves on - without crying, knowing that there are other glasses of milk for the future.
I think of the Roman quote (poorly paraphrasing here) "Just give them their bread and circuses and the government can do anything it wants".
You folks are so worried about the loss of your bread and circuses, that the real problems of the world are passing right by you without notice. Just like the machine wants.

 

This is very well done Zorgo! Bravo!  I truly enjoyed reading this one.  Now, if some of these folks that seems have nothing better to do than to bash game-making companies would just off and play a game or two, or better yet spend some quality time with the fam, maybe they'd just kinda let all fade to the past.

Zorgo

Originally posted by ronan32


 
of course you're not fussed because they didn't screw you. Your opinion might be different if they did.
 

 

Just food for thought,  his opinion might not be different even if they had screwed him.

I played SWG on day 1. I was as jazzed as anyone who grew up with Star Wars could be. In fact, beyond a fan, I was a fanboi for the Star Wars IP. I have most of the dialogue memorized to this day.

I felt my balloon deflate over 4 months of trying to convince myself that I liked the game. I just didn't. It just didn't feel like Star Wars to me. It looked like Star Wars. It sounded like Star Wars, but for me it didn't 'feel' like Star Wars.

I didn't understand how they could break from canon so easily. You mean there are going to be Jedi? There are only 2 Jedi at this 'era'. Obi and Yoda. That's it. Luke didn't become a Jedi until he confronted Lord Vader, like what 15 minutes before the series ended?

I didn't understand the heavy emphasis on crafting. I saw look try to fix R2D2 (and found the hot chick movie instead) and Chewbacca try to fix C3PO. Those were the two single most important crafting elements in the entire series. Maybe if you count Baby Vader 'creating' C3PO as significant.

I just thought that SWG in the end was more about the developers wanting to make a complex crafting game with a Star Wars jacket, than a game about SWG.

My Star Wars Fanboi opinion of SWG, pre-CU, pre-NGE? I Did not care for it.

My reaction, 'Dammit, I spent 50 bucks on that'. Two clicks on 'cancel subscription' later, and I never EVER once felt swindled, lied to, betrayed and NEVER even had the instinct to post my hate around the world.

Oh, I bet you are thinking, "OH NO< CUNGE FANBOI".

Nope.

Went back specifically because they said they were going to address 'the Star Wars' feel of the game, make it more Star Wars, yadda yadda.

I completely believe they made it far worse. If at all possible. 'At least I only spent 14.99 to find out.' That was as animated as I ever got about my feelings about SWG.

__________________________________________________________

What Pre-CU/NGE Star Wars fancases don't understand is this:

You do not represent the purest form of Star Wars fan. You are not the elite of that IP. There are millions upon millions of rabid Star Wars fans that NEVER were attracted to a game that should have been a no brainer. SOE and LucasArts both recognized this and made the very SOUND business choice to change the game.

They failed epically.

I lost somewhere in the neighborhood of 100 bucks on SWG. But I know, every time I open my wallet and buy a new video game that I'm taking a risk. Just as I take a risk buying a movie ticket for something I haven't seen.

A mature adult in that situation, consciously or unconsciously weighs the pros and cons. If I don't like this game (or movie) is it worth the risk of losing this money? When I answer yes, than I know there is no one to blame but myself for openning the wallet. When I answer 'no', than I don't buy the game (or see the movie) and I haven't lost a thing.

I played Pre-CU/NGE Star Wars Galaxies.

I played post CUNGE.

I didn't have a good experience either time.

I have never once thought Sony ripped me off.

 

 

 

Scrogdog

Whether or not YOU think that SWG suited YOUR vision of what a Star Wars game or an mmog should be is IRRELEVANT.

Whether or not YOU feel that SOE ripped you off is IRRELEVANT.

I'll say this one more time, real slowly.

Publishing an expansion under false pretense is FRAUD. You got that?

Only a clause in the EULA saved them from a class action suit. So, we can't call thier action unlawful. However, we can call it unethical. Because that is EXACTLY WHAT IT WAS.

I can't believe the number of you that believe that that is perfectly ok, just so you can play Vanguard!

Next time you guys wonder why big companies can get away with rolling over the little folks, I'd take a look in the mirror. YOU are the reason.

Simple as that.

Da1e

Originally posted by Scrogdog


Whether or not YOU think that SWG suited YOUR vision of what a Star Wars game or an mmog should be is IRRELEVANT.
Whether or not YOU feel that SOE ripped you off is IRRELEVANT.
I'll say this one more time, real slowly.
Publishing an expansion under false pretense is FRAUD. You got that?
Only a clause in the EULA saved them from a class action suit. So, we can't call thier action unlawful. However, we can call it unethical. Because that is EXACTLY WHAT IT WAS.
I can't believe the number of you that believe that that is perfectly ok, just so you can play Vanguard!
Next time you guys wonder why big companies can get away with rolling over the little folks, I'd take a look in the mirror. YOU are the reason.
Simple as that.

 

Scrog, what you have to realise is that while your argument has basis and reason, 80% of the people that would class themselves as 'anti SOE' are only angry due to their game being ruined. Zorgo was tackling those people. I don't think anyone can come up with a counter argument to your points, apart from try to forgive

 

Scrogdog

Fair enough, but that does not make my reason to boycott SOE any less valid. If some are on the wrong boat, that's ok with me, because in the end they still boycott SOE, which I believe to be the correct action.

So, divorce yourself from the noise and embrace what I've said. As far as I am concerned, I've just given any player all the information that they need to make an intelligent and informed decision with regards to a boycott.

But that's all I can do. The rest is up to them.

swede2

---

Originally posted by Scrogdog
Fair enough, but that does not make my reason to boycott SOE any less valid. If some are on the wrong boat, that's ok with me, because in the end they still boycott SOE, which I believe to be the correct action.
So, divorce yourself from the noise and embrace what I've said. As far as I am concerned, I've just given any player all the information that they need to make an intelligent and informed decision with regards to a boycott.
But that's all I can do. The rest is up to them.

---

I never played or ever wanted to play SWG what i dont understand is how come SOE gets 100% of the blame for what happened.
From what i understand Lucas Arts own's all creative rights to SWG and for that reason wasnt at SOE's fan faire. So what happened big bad sony forced all that stuff on you guys and LA gets a pass on any of the blame.
I would think that LA is just as much if not more to blame for what happened than SOE.
Why the nerd rage aganst SOE and none towards LA, i just dont understand why you guys never mention LA in your hate posts Theres no way in hell that it was all SOE's doing when they dont even have creative control over the game to this day

mklinic

Originally posted by swede2


 


I never played or ever wanted to play SWG what i dont understand is how come SOE gets 100% of the blame for what happened.

From what i understand Lucas Arts own's all creative rights to SWG and for that reason wasnt at SOE's fan faire. So what happened big bad sony forced all that stuff on you guys and LA gets a pass on any of the blame.

I would think that LA is just as much if not more to blame for what happened than SOE.

Why the nerd rage aganst SOE and none towards LA, i just dont understand why you guys never mention LA in your hate posts Theres no way in hell that it was all SOE's doing when they dont even have creative control over the game to this day

 

 

damn it...this thread keeps popping up on the front page and like a moth to a flame.....

Just reading this response, I think it is important to read the SWG Vet forum. You will see LEC gets plenty of blame as well. However, you will also find, in various threads, numerous peices of evidence that state the NGE was conceived and pushed by SOE.

Now, the reason you might not hear much about LA in this forum is due to the fact Vangaurd and LA have no relation (that I am aware of).

I think it has been stated now numerous times, but regardless of the changes themselves, SOE advertised and sold product that they knew would be devalued by the NGE. For information on timelines and what not, I again point to the Vet forum as there is a wealth of historical information there. While some may believe fraud is a strong word to use due to it's legal conotations, I believe we can all agree that 'unethical' is certainly suitable and I would go further to say that those who felt burned by this lack of ethics have every right to comment on the company who provides services people are inquiring about.

Now...off to catch up on all those pages i missed....on second thought...nah, back to work.....

Daffid011

Lets set some things straight here for sake of discussion.

The actual changes made to SWG are irrelevant for the most part.  How good or bad the changes were doesn't really matter for the most part.

 

What is important is how the company treated their customers.  SOE took thier customers subscription money to fund production of essentially a new game that was targeted to everyone NOT INCLUDING their current customers.  The current customer base was written off as replaceable.  They never asked for their customers input, they hid the changes until they had every single penny they could squeeze out of the subscribers (1 day after all the prepayed expansions were charged on credit cards).  Sony admitted they knew they would lose customers.  They deleted years of work that their customers had put into the game.  They went on talk shows, magazines and forums slandering and discrediting their customers as being upset for nothing or over reacting.  The level of disrespect shown to the people "who pay the bills" at SOE was so monumental it overshadows everything else they do.  They most likely broke the law doing this and offered a refund of the expansion in repsonse as a legal maneuver. 

There is no way possible to dismiss this type of behavior as a "simple mistake" as so many current SOE subscriber try to downplay this type of action.  Perhaps they could be forgiven if they truely apologize, but they have not.

THIS IS THE LEVEL OF CONDUCT THAT THE LEADERSHIP AT SOE CONSIDERED ACCEPTABLE.   Don't ever forget that. 

Sony DILIBERATLY chose to abandon their customers who had stuck with a faulty product for years in some money lust attempt to gain a mythical playerbase.

Where the changes bad in Nov 2005?  Yes.  SOE didn't even care enough to even lie about testing the NGE and that is what they expected all these new people to PAY for.  Think about that, they wanted people to PAY money for that. 

Now just because they commited the worst act of betraying their customer base in SWG don't let that overshadow their actions that are very similar to lesser degrees on just about all of their products.  This is just how the company opperates. 

 

SOE simply does not care about their customers and that is why they continually lose market share.  The people running the books are in charge of making decisions that they should not be in charge of.  Just go read any single interview with John Smedly and compare how detailed his talks are about revenue generation is versus what makes a game fun.  You can clearly see all he cares about is how to squeeze money out of people and not what makes a game fun.  This is their leader and he is making the companies policy.  Gameplay, quality and customer satisfaction have always taken a back seat to him.

Every time you turn around this company is either revamping something (some would say cloning another game) or trying to stick their hand in your pocket for extra money.