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I love SOE
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The first point can just as easily be turned back on the SOE fans. They give biased information merely to confuse perspective buyers. See how easy it is t omake baseless statements?
On the second point, you don't have the time to "correct" everyone and yet you've managed to respond to every rebuttal posted in this thread from multiple people. Maybe you just aren't managing the time you do hav every well.
And finally, the rest, puts it all in perspective. For you, there are a number of factors that don't matter. For others, they might. Therefore, demanding that people stop posting certain types of information or opinions is extremely narrow minded, a description you use for SOE "haters" btw, and shows that you hav eyour own bias in place that readers fo your posts should be worried about.
I suppose, one important thing to realize is, when you point your finger, you have four others pointing back at you.
No I'm afraid it's not me being narrow minded. I accept SOE aren't perfect and have made mistakes, but I also accept they do good things as well. However, you soe haters disregard any good that comes out of soe with anti soe propoganda simply to suit your own distaste.
I have plenty of time to reply to my own thread, yes, but i shouldn't have to go around altering everyone elses. They should put their hate in the official forum, that would please me. But no, they feel the need to show everyone SOE's previous mistakes, so just incase they make the same mistake again (which is about 0.1% chance imo) people don't try SOE games.
I don't have a particular bias. I came to VG without even paying attention who developped it etc, then I came to the forum and found SOE SOE SOE everywhere. If i myself was put off by these fools then I would be kicking myself, regardless of whether I had wasted 6 months of my life 2 years ago. I'd give them another chance.
You talk about me being biased, and use fancy language to make it sound as if your argument is actually the better of the two, when all you are saying is people have the right to be angry and ruin other people's time on the forum by spreading their views on past SOE events. You seem to think it's ok for people that won't let go to the past to sway new users away from potentially good products, and as you know, population is an issue for VG, so you're just being selfish. I enjoy VG, others enjoy VG, others would enjoy VG if they had the chance, so why not GIVE them the chance, rather than sending them packing before they even read properly about the game? Fair enough some people don't like it, so they should write a review about why they didn't like the GAME, not a review saying 'there's no way you should try this game, its SOE' ....
I find myself going round in circles, simply because you're older and think you know better. Your judgement is clouded by events in the past, mine isn't. All I'm asking is take your hate and put it in the official forum, regular users like me are bored of seeing every other thread about SOE.
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Hello!
Just ot clarify, but SOE has made two significant changes to SWG. The CU which many found unacceptable and the NGE which many others found even worse. So, for 0.1% they have managed to beat some pretty significant odds.
As far as all the stuff I clipped out, the basic summary is that, if one person stays away from an SOE product, then the vets are accomplishing what they want. Why would they stop?
And finally, yes, we're going a bit in circles here becuase you have, so far, refused to ackowledge that you can go to the official forums to hear a sympathetic point of view. Vets on the other hand do not have that luxury as many will relay stories of their posts being removed or moderated out. Not that there is a problem with that as they are the official forums and Sony has every right to try to control their little patch of the internet.
So whether I am older or whether I have learned from history is irrelevant. I use the forums available to me to express my views where I know they can be discussed without what I perceive as unreasonable moderation. When someone can starts a thread referring to people who have differing opinions as "monkeys" and resorting to various name calling, I am well within my right to state my opinion's on SOE on any board relating to SOE products.
Making a thread that is obviously intended for a reaction (and sure, I bit) isn't going to change anyone's posting habits and, for me and likely others, you have failed to make any meaningful case on the topic you started. You have agreed with me that people should post if they have a problem with the game and that information about the developers may be relelvant to some other people looking into SOE products. That is sufficient for me and you are welcome to the last word if woud like it.
-mklinic
"Do something right, no one remembers.
Do something wrong, no one forgets"
-from No One Remembers by In Strict Confidence
simple, I don't agree.
All that needs to be said has been said, but when you say you don't have the luxury of having an unmoderated place to complain, try the 'official we are unhappy about soe' forum. I'm not trying to censor anyone, not by a long shot, only to move it to a more relevant area.
Fair enough my post has been a failure, but so is the posts of anti SOEers that hijack regular threads just to post something completely irrelevant.
As for name calling, they are never meant offensively, only to prove some form of point.
The chances of SOE making another mistake like that are slim, because they have already made the mistakes numerous times. If you read the developers report they actually give detailed information these days.
Fine, if you anti SOErs feel the need to stop people from buying gamers because you're still too angry about them ruining your favourite game then that's your problem, and I can only say that it's about the lowest thing you could possibly do. I think I'd rather go to the fan faire dressed as an elf than bear a grudge for 2 years. Very Scrooge-like.
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Hello!
Sony in unlikley to make a mistake because they have already made them?
You really need to bone up on your SOE history mate. SOE's history says you are wrong and that they will continue making the same mistakes over and over. With the new eye on money that Sony has on all of its departments and the lack of change in management I doubt we will somehow see a new leaf turned over.
Earlier you said your opinion was unbiased, but it really sounds more uneducated to be honest.
we shall see. If vanguard makes an incredibly stupid mistake then I'll eat my words. Until then I keep my argument the same.
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Hello!
Vanguard will be SOE's redemption.
To be honest I really couldn't be bothered to read through 12 pages of really long posts, but I will say my 2 cents, well 2 pence as I'm English
SOE did fudge up with SWG, its not half of the game it used to be, and on the vet free month really showed me this, its not nearly as fun as it used to be. From what I have heard SOE made everquest 2 no where near as good as eq and that upset all the eq players. SOE have also lost a lot of eq players due to them making the games they own easier, easier to get the best armour, easier to get to the max lvl etc.
Also as a sidenote, SOE didn't release Vanguard, just in case no one has pulled you up on this from your OP. What Vanguard has done is totally change my view of SOE, maybe its not really SOE thats done the work as, as far as I know the dev team is made up of the orginal team that made the game, all SOE have paid their salaries. I don't know if that is true but it seems feesable, but Vanguard is a great game, some have said its being made easier tho, but I think thats mainly for the ppl that work and play, and not just play play play!
So I'd say SOE have done some very stupid things in the past, NGE should of been tested and then a verdict from the players should of said what happens to the game, as it totally changed SWG. But I don't know if SOE have changed or the Vanguard team have just been given the time they need to make an amazing game. I do find it stupid that the SOE haters, try and pull apart everything SOE do, to make them look bad and to make more haters, its like a cult, but its there opinion to think that, but I don't find it right for them to pressure it on to everyone else too.
Damn , why dont you people go be angry at a company that closes down its mmo's instead of trying to fix them or change them for a market they are in and the buisiness that they are, all the soe games are still here, imho swg is better to play now, it hurt to play pre cu, buggy hunk of crap that it used to be, go hate ea-games, they dont care about there customers at all, they will turn off the servers on any game if it doesnt meet a ceartain criteria, and they have done so to many games that had many players, be thankful soe tries to help its games , they could just say f-u and pull the plug, but they dont, they try to find a solution around that and it just doesnt satisify you. Go play an ea-games related mmo or look up how many mmos eagames sunset, and you may feel that soe is a shining beacon the dark ages of mmo's
playing eq2 and two worlds
we shall see. If vanguard makes an incredibly stupid mistake then I'll eat my words. Until then I keep my argument the same.
They already have.
They partnered with one of the few games that could have brought about some change in MMOs if it had been successful. SOE cut funding ensuring the game would launch as a disaster. Not entirely their fault, but it was NOT in Sonys best interest to see Vanguard launch in an acceptable state. Vanguard was posed to take a substantial amount of subscribers from EQ and EQ2 as its primary target audience.
They have cut staff from over 100 to roughly 20, moved the best talent off the game and let the remaining Sigil team do the rest of the debugging. Not exactly what I applaud as good effort from a game developer.
Sure they bought a game with an already a great framework and huge potential and then took over a year to work out the performance issues. The problem everyone overlooks while patting SOE on the back for basically nothing is that they have helped ensure this game will have no meaningful future. We the players would have been better off if SOE had bought controlling share in the game and delayed launch , but like I said SOE stood to gain little from the game launching as a success.
What happens when SOE runs out of content that Sigil had already designed and worked on? When the last of the unfinshed beta dungeons are completed and they run out of dungeons to revamp and overland raid mobs then what? Where is Vanguard in 2,3,4,5 years?
This game should have been so much more and it isn't. I just can't pat SOE on the back for a half assed effort, because it is marginally better than anything they have done in the past.
It all boils down to SOE buying a game with more potential than anything they currently have and spending 1 year to work out performance issues and people get all excited over that? Sorry, but I just can't subscribe to that as a good thing.
Please keep in mind I am not saying Vanguard is a bad game. The game is essentially the same exact game Sigil launched, only now it doesn't crash and stutter.
we shall see. If vanguard makes an incredibly stupid mistake then I'll eat my words. Until then I keep my argument the same.
They already have.
They partnered with one of the few games that could have brought about some change in MMOs if it had been successful. SOE cut funding ensuring the game would launch as a disaster. Not entirely their fault, but it was NOT in Sonys best interest to see Vanguard launch in an acceptable state. Vanguard was posed to take a substantial amount of subscribers from EQ and EQ2 as its primary target audience.
They have cut staff from over 100 to roughly 20, moved the best talent off the game and let the remaining Sigil team do the rest of the debugging. Not exactly what I applaud as good effort from a game developer.
Sure they bought a game with an already a great framework and huge potential and then took over a year to work out the performance issues. The problem everyone overlooks while patting SOE on the back for basically nothing is that they have helped ensure this game will have no meaningful future. We the players would have been better off if SOE had bought controlling share in the game and delayed launch , but like I said SOE stood to gain little from the game launching as a success.
What happens when SOE runs out of content that Sigil had already designed and worked on? When the last of the unfinshed beta dungeons are completed and they run out of dungeons to revamp and overland raid mobs then what? Where is Vanguard in 2,3,4,5 years?
This game should have been so much more and it isn't. I just can't pat SOE on the back for a half assed effort, because it is marginally better than anything they have done in the past.
It all boils down to SOE buying a game with more potential than anything they currently have and spending 1 year to work out performance issues and people get all excited over that? Sorry, but I just can't subscribe to that as a good thing.
Please keep in mind I am not saying Vanguard is a bad game. The game is essentially the same exact game Sigil launched, only now it doesn't crash and stutter.
excuse me what are you talking about?? SOE doesn't have much to gain from a stable launch? You must be a bit silly, as a stable launch means a stable amount of subscribers, a failed launch means a stable amount of leavers.
an incredibly stupid mistake? What? improving VG? It's playable now, and incredibly fun, I don't see this as a disaster, so no they already haven't made a stupid mistake and I won't be eatting my hat.
in 2,3,4,5 years it will have way more fans, more developpers, and it will start working on new content rather than bug fixes, and it will have less people like you and many others crying about SOE.
tbh this thread has been a waste of time, if i wanted to read what you and everyone else has put i could have gone to pretty much any other thread. They all contain the same boring message regardless of the thread title, all of you anti SOErs are to thank.
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Hello!
Answer this question Dale, Who was going to get the lion share of the subscriber money if Vanguard had launched in any decent shape: SOE or Sigil.
If you answered Sigil you would be correct.
Where did SOE stand to gain from losing subscriber money from EQ/EQ2 and Vanguard getting that money?
We will see if the game performs the miracle comeback that no game has done in a long long time. More devs, subscribers and content remain to be seen. More devs cost money and money comes from more subscribers who want more content which comes from more devs... see the catch 22? Maybe they will get more money to ramp up development when thet get around to introducing microtransactions into VG in some form or another.
I'm sorry you don't like the tone of my views, but that doesn't make them wrong does it?
Your whole thread reminds me of the Chris Crocker Brittney Spears fan video. Leave SOE alone... They are going through some hard time. Boo Hoo.
Regardless, in the long run they would have both gained. They do STATION PASSES, where people can sign up for all SOE games. If people play EQ then see VG in their list of games they may give it a go and buy a station pass. That's where they stand to gain.
Is for the Chris Crocker reference, well done, you've figured out how to use Youtube, but you're wrong im afraid. I'm not saying leave SOE alone, I'm saying stop being a Chris Crocker about SWG...fool. 'leave swg alone, you've ruined my life' sound farmiliar? that was no doubt you 2 years ago. Boo hoo.
I've already said if you are able to read that I know SOE have done wrong, if you were a capable reader you'd see i have no problem with people stating their opinion of SOE, as long as it's done in the proper place, although I do think it's pathetic.
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This thread is pretty lame and people that are chanting "I hate SOE" are stupid. SoE is a business and they have made some bad decisions with SWG without question. That doesn't make them evil or anything else. It means they made a bad call to fix a game that was already ailing. Happens, subs left the game, the results were not what SoE expected and they have learned from it. Not that they can't repeat that or do something else people will get upset about. Unfortunately running a business means they need to do things from time to time and sometimes it will work out and sometimes it won't. Whatever they do is oriented on running the business which means increasing customers and making us happy.
So my take on it is that SoE has had more experience then other companies and is actually likely to do better in the future having learned somewhat from the past. Branding a company based on an action years ago and assuming that nothing has changed is just being stupid.
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Ethion
If you know how station pass works you will know how the money gets divided between the games on the list.
Each game gets a percentage of the pass fee based on time spent in their respective game. If people stop logging into EQ/EQ2 and play Vanguard guess who losses money? Maybe a few more people sign up for station pass, but there were plenty that already had it. Every time they log into VG it is a net loss for SOE no matter how you try to spin in.
Vanguard being a success had the potential to hurt SOE more than it helped.
I'm sorry you feel that people expressing an opinion other than yours is pathetic, but that doesn't make them incorrect.
SOE has been very generous with allowing players in EQ 2, Vanguard, and Everquest play for free during the summer months.
I know the population on the Combine server in Everquest is booming, but I am not sure about the other games and their servers.
I have free time in EQ 2, but I never bothered logging in. Good game, but I got bored with it in the 20s.
Edit: Oh, I logged into Vanguard briefly and got bored. I am level 50 and there is nothing for me to do, or nothing that I want to do (would pay money for). Happy in Everquest, though.
Regardless, in the long run they would have both gained. They do STATION PASSES, where people can sign up for all SOE games. If people play EQ then see VG in their list of games they may give it a go and buy a station pass. That's where they stand to gain.
Is for the Chris Crocker reference, well done, you've figured out how to use Youtube, but you're wrong im afraid. I'm not saying leave SOE alone, I'm saying stop being a Chris Crocker about SWG...fool. 'leave swg alone, you've ruined my life' sound farmiliar? that was no doubt you 2 years ago. Boo hoo.
I've already said if you are able to read that I know SOE have done wrong, if you were a capable reader you'd see i have no problem with people stating their opinion of SOE, as long as it's done in the proper place, although I do think it's pathetic.
Soe are not fixing vanguard, it's the same dev team that used to work for sigil that are fixing vanguard..Soe are just throwing money at it now and again, but they will keep it down, because they don't want it to compete with their original ip's. It's still the same dev team from sigil who are working to fix vangaurd, and you give the credit to sony, this shows you up for the fanboi that you are or you're just making uneducated posts.. do some research next time.
ronan32 you have made no contributing points that have meant anything,
Daffid has, yet you seem to think YOU have won something? stop jumping on the bandwagon, your arguments are flawed, but I can see Daffid's points.
you don't get it do you? I don't need to do the research. Playing Vanguard is my research, enough to say I don't think you should try stop people playing it. simple. stop being an arse.
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Hello!
clearly you are just looking for a fight, my points have been reiterated in other peoples posts, your thread has made no contribution because all you were looking for is a reaction..you claim you hate soe bashing yet you start a thread knowing fully what the outcome would be. You have made no valid response to my argument and have resorted to insulting me every time, shows you cant put forward a good counter point. How am i jumping on a bandwagon if i experienced it for my self first hand..you haven't a clue what your talking about, you're just blindly defending soe for the sole reason of confrontation. you sir are the arse.
looking for a fight? no, I was looking for people to stop complaining and hijacking people's threads to spread hate. You anti SOEers are the ones looking for a fight, you won't hear any good about SOE, and feel the urge to tell every living soul out there, any that listens, your experiences of how you lost 6 months of your life.
I start every thread knowing the reaction, as it's always the same. You SOE haters get all irate and start insulting (yes, you were the first person to start insulting on this thread, no calling you call monkeys is not an insult in the context it was in)
you first told me to 'fuck off' , put 'da1e bends over for soe' and used profanities in numerous occasions, I however have light heartedly made jokes, as my heart isn't filled with hate and regret.
The bandwagon you are jumping on is Daffid's post. i have barely acknowledged your posts beacuse they're typical of EVERY other anti soers out there. I have listened to other people's posts beacuse they stay calm and don't swear at me.
There's even a difference in what you said, making it offensive, 'stop being an arse' implies the way you are acting, not insulting you directly, whereas calling me an arse is just out of order. I've finished talking to you. Go back to your anti SOE cave and cry for years to come about losing $70 and 6 months. Grudges will get you far in life I'm sure.
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can someone please name ONE successful MMO that was originally made by SoE?
I can name two, assuming you mean subscription numbers:
I am not sure what the subscription numbers for SWG are, though. I know there are several highly populated servers while several others are deserted. SWG is an awesome game. Do not believe me.
Aside: in my view, EQ 1 and SWG are the ... best MMORPGs ever created.
Everquest was made by Verant before SOE was a game wrecking entity. Many of the same people, but the freedom to make a game was different before it got fully put under the SOE wing. Many consider the changes SOE made once they took over to be the downward turn of EQ.
EQ2 didn't even meet enough people to fill the initial servers launched and had to merge servers a year after launch. While it is not a complete failure it certainly isn't a success especially considering it is the flagship of the once biggest kid on the MMO block.
SWG was a big hit when it first came out and despite its terrible condition people stuck with it for a long time just because it said star wars and beneath all the mistakes was a great game waiting to come to life. SOE has worked extra hard to ruin it though.
Is SOE successful? I would not say so. Over the last several years their stable of games has increased. The oversize of the total number of MMO players has exploded beyond expectations. SOE on the other hand continues to loss marketshare and there is a reason for that.
It is interesting if you look at xfire you will see that of all soe games the one being played most is swg...
Not sure what to make of that.
I don't think soe has done bad all of their games are relatively successful. They aren't blockbusters like wow but they aren't flops either. They generally sit around 200k some more down now but at peaks they were all much higher in the 300-500k range which isn't bad by any measure.
But you are right that they are not gaining market share and that other games are coming in like LotR which had blasted past them. Even EVE continues to defy trends and grows continuously.
Given the scope of VG and it's uniqueness on the mmo landscape it will be interesting to see if VG can copy EVE and grow over time even after a bad launch. EVE had a bad launch and was generally a disaster the first year but has continuously grown since then to where now it is around the number 4 most popular commercial MMO. Not counting the asian titles. We should discount AoC as it is a blip on the radar that will soon fade away :P
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Ethion
I doubt any SOE game has had over 200k users in many years.
Eve also was in a more unique situation than Vanguard is. It also gained a swell of users when SWG pushed the NGE out and maybe some when E&B shut down, but I don't know about the latter. It also doesn't have much competition in the way of space based games. I'm not sure it
Vanguard has lots of other options for people to choose from and word of mouth is very mixed about the game. Plus I think everyone agrees SOE isn't giving Vangaurd enough resources to truely grow.
SOE destroyed EQ, EQ2 is not a fun game. Its WoW. After release they saw how successful WoW was doing, and they turned it into a solo fest. Not that EQ2 was a good game at release. I hated it, and its certainly better now. That doesn't negate the fact that they copied WoW. They've had 2 or 3 major nerfs/combat revamps.
SOE is the kling of bait and switch.They nerfed the living heck out of Splitpaw after a month or 2, because too many people enjoyed it. They nerfed monster missions in EQ, because people enjoyed it and it was bringing the game back from the dead. Has SOE ever nerfed raid rewards? Nope. They always increase rewards. Why do they decrease rewards from other content? They take a dump on their own playerbase every chance they get.
I'm not even going to go into SWG, because I was never a fan of that game. It was horrible from the get go. To people who like it, though, how can a company completely gut a game? Oh yea, its SOE, "You're in their world now." They will do any darn thing they please.