What am I trying to prove I'm right about? I asked the question, 'where is the gamplay?'
It isn't about liking the video or disliking it, it is about the content and what we learned from it. All I saw was simple combat and some walking around, not siege/boat/player city content, which I would have loved to see.
I am starting to belive that OP is so completely ignorant that he has actually only seen PART 1 of the 6 utube movies..
May I suggest that you go and download the ENTIRE game-trailer here:
It most assuredly features SIEGE/BOAT/PLAYER CITY content. Now go love it!
Yea seriously...
I mean his arguements are very thin as it is...but then to say that they didnt even show boat combat...
That is just a lie lol.
Ship combat was one of the only scene where you saw a lot of different angles including a FIRST PERSON view and also some UI mousing over things and you saw names pop up. But i guess that was all done in the game engine and was faked....they just added the text to fool us all of course!!!
Please, OP got caught trolling. Move on. No boat combat...lol
yet u are not sure of it, "low/medium settings" is the only excuse u have while it is only rumored being that. the diff between medium and high settings is just too huge and you are fooling yourself yet again
another guy trying to pull the whole eq1 comparison bs....sorry thats played out at this point.
Search for many threads where you see comparisons of all the current gen games and youll find df somewhere between lotro and aoc...and eq1 we have seen the comparisons and you are basically admitting you are a troll by saying that.
seriously the graphics are better than ok, they are good. stop trying to convince us that the screenshots (you do know what a screen shot is right?) is not of in game footage or that the video was made using some other engine etc etc....no one is listening and its getting old.
dude everyone who complains about a single aspect of DF is a troll to you.. EQ1 > that vid.. i played EQ1 and its my opinion i never said it was a fact ok ill go dl that high res trailer then to see if it can prove me wrong, i wont deny it if thats the case. besides that the graphics are the only thing u can form an opinion of since all trailers (called gameplay trailers) are basically demonstrations to advertise the game, besides some split secs of actual first person gameplay thats it really, the rest of the vid is showing some battles from a few angles to make everything look good, and seeing the amount of fans flocking to these forums (even tho no1 like mmorpg.com) the vid did its job, but till i can play it (in beta) or watch REAL gameplay vids im not gonna plan to buy it
my point is that the DF trailer was the same as every other "gameplay" trailer (yet every DF fan vigourosly defends the game cause of that single trailer.. unlike any other fanbois from other games), show some nice fights and animations/spells/etc. plz enlighten me what the difference is between the DF trailer and a WAR "gameplay" trailer
MMOs currently playing: - About to play: Lord of the Rings Online Played: Anarchy Online (alltime favorite) and lots of f2p titles (honorable mentions: 9Dragons, Martial Heroes, Dekaron, Atlantica Online)
Actually I have to disagree on a number of points with both of you here... 1. For a game that's been in internal beta for this long, and is aiming for a release within the next 3 1/2 to 4 months, it shouldn't be all that uncommon to see video and screens of the GUI. There actually are several instances in the clip that illustrate the GUI from a player's perspective as well as several screenshots, but it's hard to see because the developers have opted for a very small and unintrusive interface. It seems to be little more than a crosshair and a health bar most of the time. 2. I disagree that the video was designed to generate hype. I believe it was, in fact, intended to highlight game features. Avatar control was simply not one of the features that they were highlighting... which makes perfect sense when you consider that most players probably already know what it feels like to play a FPS style game. The features the video was designed to illustrate were the naval battles (ship to ship, ship to shore, and boarding), the city construction and siege system (both the destruction and construction of a keep were featured as a large part of the video's climax), and the mounted combat. I, too, would like to have seen more, but the video was not intended to be comprehensive, nor was more necessairly promised. I'm satisfied that the devs chose to illustrate some of the more difficult of their proposed features to impliment. Given the remaining nature of their feature list, the only thing I'm still questioning with any concern is the much touted PvE AI. I'd like to get the impressions of someone who's played against these bots and I'd like to see some more examples of the AI in action first hand. That being said, I'd also like to point out that the graphics aren't all that bad. It looks no worse than the way SWG, WoW, or even AoC plays on my machine. In order to enter environments as heavily populated and active as the ones shown, I'd have to trim the graphics so low on those graphically beautiful games that they, too, seem like dated software. Judging from the screen shots I've seen, I have more concern with the art direction than with the actual graphics... Some of those suits of armor would still look silly even if they were rendered in photo realistic quality.
well I disagree on both 1 and 2 of your points.
1: Its too much assumption to think that the game is aimed to be released in 3-4 months when they have not set a date. Hell its a MMO we may not see it for another 6-8 months. You never know. So when they set a date that will give us a good guessing point then. For the ones that are not on the Darkfall team which ill venture a guess that is 100% of us, its like guessing the lottery numbers. We have no clue when it will be out.
2: Well if your right here then sadly the OP is right, but I still think your both wrong. The video we got is more for the media/hype/teaser aspect and not for detailed gameplay/features. Its consitant with all other MMO videos that do not have a release date.
The devs have announced that they intend to release by the end of 2008, with a very short beta stress test. If the devs are serious about a 2008 release date, then they have to release before the next four months, or they'll be releasing in 2009.
While I don't disagree that one function of the video was to generate hype, I also feel it did a fair job of giving those who follow it a better idea of how the game is coming along in its internal testing. Yes, they set it to music and cut it to give it a bit of a story, but they also did it in a way designed to hilight several of its more interesting features. Note I said "highlight" and not "fully explain and illustrate".
Those graphics reminded me of Wolfenstien, and not the most recent one either. I'm talking old Wolfenstein 90's graphics. This looks like crap. I'm sorry, but anyone that says graphics don't matter at all is lying. Gameplay is #1, but you can't have complete turd for your graphics and still expect that nobody will care.
The trolls are really getting more desperate and obvious arent they......
DF is comming regardless of how many times the trolls try to put it down. You forget that people have that whole free will thing and tend to make their own opinions.
really who is a troll here, its pretty obvious to me that the DF screenshot is not ingame, the vid graphics were MUCH worse. tbh ive played EQ1 and that looks better
im not saying DF sucks cause the graphics suck but you are just fooling yourself with those screenshots
Actually, those screenshots don't look too far removed from the high res footage to me. It was clear from the video that the game supports the complex lignting and environmental effects seen in the screenshot and the polygon count on the characters looks about the same.
I'm not going to say it was graphically perfect. The partical effects and animations need a lot of work, and some of the armor sets just look goofy as sin (though that's more an art thing than a graphics thing). Like I've said before, Most of the MMO's I've played recently look about like the video does because I have to set them to a low to medium setting to get them to run in congested areas like the ones seen in the video.
For weeks we were promised a gameplay video. That is exactly what we got. We weren't promised a video that would show-case all features of darkfall. We weren't promised a crafting tutorial. We weren't promised a walk-through of the character creation process. We got EXACTLY what we were promised. Hey look at me!!!
This is for you and Aragon.
And that would be fine "IF" Combat was Darkfalls only gameplay feature. Which they have said it's NOT. Yes, the game is PvP centric. Aventurine also took the time (my own impressions from their jounrals) to do a proper PvE and Crafting/Harvest. If Darkfall was nothing more then a Fury clone. That video would have been the best representation for a gameplay video EVER. However Darkfall is a PvP centric Sandbox MMO, with PvE, and Crafting of Houses/GuildHalls/Boats/etc.
Most of the video bits they cut out to get it down to that size and length. Probably contained the portions of Darkfall that the rest of us are also interested in. It's fine if combat is enough for you. For me personally though. If you tell me your game has x, y, and Z as gameplay features. When you make a gameplay movie, I would think you wouldn't exclude x and y. That's just me though.
It's nothing wrong with putting your best foot forward. That is to be expected. In Darkfalls case it would seem to be Combat which is fine. That's not really a good reason to not bother showing the other stuff.
Edit: Just incase that wasn't clear enough bongloads. The video was called a "comprehensive gameplay video" correct? Here is the definition of the word, as noted by Webster.
Main Entry:
com·pre·hen·sive Listen to the pronunciation of comprehensive
Pronunciation:
-?hen(t)-siv
Function:
adjective
Date:
1614
1 : covering completely or broadly : inclusive <comprehensive examinations> <comprehensive insurance> 2 : having or exhibiting wide mental grasp <comprehensive knowledge>
— com·pre·hen·sive·ly adverb
— com·pre·hen·sive·ness noun
In War - Victory. In Peace - Vigilance. In Death - Sacrifice.
For weeks we were promised a gameplay video. That is exactly what we got. We weren't promised a video that would show-case all features of darkfall. We weren't promised a crafting tutorial. We weren't promised a walk-through of the character creation process. We got EXACTLY what we were promised. Hey look at me!!!
This is for you and Aragon.
And that would be fine "IF" Combat was Darkfalls only gameplay feature. Which they have said it's NOT. Yes, the game is PvP centric. Aventurine also took the time (my own impressions from their jounrals) to do a proper PvE and Crafting/Harvest. If Darkfall was nothing more then a Fury clone. That video would have been the best representation for a gameplay video EVER. However Darkfall is a PvP centric Sandbox MMO, with PvE, and Crafting of Houses/GuildHalls/Boats/etc.
Most of the video bits they cut out to get it down to that size and length. Probably contained the portions of Darkfall that the rest of us are also interested in. It's fine if combat is enough for you. For me personally though. If you tell me your game has x, y, and Z as gameplay features. When you make a gameplay movie, I would think you wouldn't exclude x and y. That's just me though.
It's nothing wrong with putting your best foot forward. That is to be expected. In Darkfalls case it would seem to be Combat which is fine. That's not really a good reason to not bother showing the other stuff.
Edit: Just incase that wasn't clear enough bongloads. The video was called a "comprehensive gameplay video" correct? Here is the definition of the word, as noted by Webster.
Main Entry:
com·pre·hen·sive Listen to the pronunciation of comprehensive
Pronunciation:
-?hen(t)-siv
Function:
adjective
Date:
1614
1 : covering completely or broadly : inclusive <comprehensive examinations> <comprehensive insurance> 2 : having or exhibiting wide mental grasp <comprehensive knowledge>
I don't see any besides a huge wall of text telling us how epic all these features and systems are, but where is the proof? You keep justifying the joke of a trailor as "Gameplay > Graphics" yet Darkfall has NEITHER. Where are some pics of the UI? An actual fight that isn't poorly made cinimiatics? I want DF to work as much as the next guy, but you guys are being overconfident and almost naive. This game has yet to present anything.
Yes you are 100% correct.
See the problem with the Darkfall fanboys is that they CONSTANTLY TAKE WORDS AS FACT.
This video proved ABSOLUTELY NOTHING beyond the fact that they have what appears to be a combat system which everyone knew they had for years already.
It does not prove they have 95% of the other features even in the game and functioning properly.
You know all those other features that were the main reason anyone even followed this game to begin with.
Why didn't they make a video of actual people PLAYING the game?? Why did they make another generic scripted trailer? It would have been so much easier just to launch the game and PLAY it while recording.
They could easily made both. A trailer and a simple video with someone actually playing the game. Creating a character , entering the world , crafting something , selling stuff , etc etc.. REAL GAMEPLAY footage.
The video they released had absolutely nothing new in it. It was just a longer more drawn out version of the older shorter videos.
I am still waiting for an explanation as to why they had to settle for some unknown , inexperienced DVD distribution company with software piracy problems to publish for them when they have the mother of all MMORPG's better than any ever made.
I don't know why you are even arguing about this, the fans can't prove the features are in the game and the nay-sayers can't prove they aren't. Argueing about it is just a waste of everyone's time.
Until the beta comes out nobody has any idea what the game will be like.
Both the fanboys and trolls are as stupid as each other.
I don't see any besides a huge wall of text telling us how epic all these features and systems are, but where is the proof? You keep justifying the joke of a trailor as "Gameplay > Graphics" yet Darkfall has NEITHER. Where are some pics of the UI? An actual fight that isn't poorly made cinimiatics? I want DF to work as much as the next guy, but you guys are being overconfident and almost naive. This game has yet to present anything.
Yes you are 100% correct.
See the problem with the Darkfall fanboys is that they CONSTANTLY TAKE WORDS AS FACT.
This video proved ABSOLUTELY NOTHING beyond the fact that they have what appears to be a combat system which everyone knew they had for years already.
It does not prove they have 95% of the other features even in the game and functioning properly.
You know all those other features that were the main reason anyone even followed this game to begin with.
Why didn't they make a video of actual people PLAYING the game?? Why did they make another generic scripted trailer? It would have been so much easier just to launch the game and PLAY it while recording.
They could easily made both. A trailer and a simple video with someone actually playing the game. Creating a character , entering the world , crafting something , selling stuff , etc etc.. REAL GAMEPLAY footage.
The video they released had absolutely nothing new in it. It was just a longer more drawn out version of the older shorter videos.
I am still waiting for an explanation as to why they had to settle for some unknown , inexperienced DVD distribution company with software piracy problems to publish for them when they have the mother of all MMORPG's better than any ever made.
hilarious.
i dont believe them until i see it but i still trust them because i have no reason not too.
because thats just it ther not really a publisher there just there to distribute the game..
and iwth that they have no control over the game a big name publisher would want soem controls darkfall devs dont want to give it
The OP will not be happy until he can see it for him self. I feel the same way. The game has been in development for 8 years? I would take anything they say currently with a grain of salt until I see a forum post or email saying "Beta invites have started".
Also to respond to the OP. The video did show everything you wanted. It of course did not show the materials being combined or the process to build a wall, building, or tank. It did show the game dynamics up to a point. It showed archers using range/distance/height, casters using knock back, tanks using collision based tactics to keep the enemy in a corner. It shows a little of everything. It wasn't meant to hold your hand and walk you through a narrated video of how you click the mouse to shoot an arrow.
OP: "Regardless of how the graphics look, people say the gameplay is more important. But what gameplay does it show?"
Responce1: "The graphics are great!!!"
Responce2: "Watch the video! It clearly shows people killing other people, and in multiple ways!!"
Rebuttal: "Where's the crafting? Where's POH? Where's the resource gathering? How does construction work? How does skill progression work?"
Responce1: "The graphics are great!!"
Responce2: "Watch the video! It clearly shows people killing other people, and in multiple way!!"
Even if the PvP combat system is awesome, even if the PvE combat system and AI is awesome, the game will fail. The crafting system is so pathetic they didn't feel they could show more than a second. Construction is almost certainly not a tradeskill, and the buildings are probably just purchased templates. There probably are no real tradeskills in the game other than weapon and armor crafting and mage crafting. My guess, since they chose not to show them, is they are all the same lame process of using a recipe.
And without trade skills, this'll be some niche game of PvP players killing other PvP players in supposedly new and novel ways. All the players that PvPers salavate over getting to kill, the crafters, merchanters, explorers, and skillers... Will be off playing a game that actually offers it (like Runescape.... Vanguard.... LotR.... etc....).
Proceed with rubuting with "the graphics are great!" or "naval and mounted combat!!!"
This thread is funny! OP: "Regardless of how the graphics look, people say the gameplay is more important. But what gameplay does it show?" Responce1: "The graphics are great!!!" Responce2: "Watch the video! It clearly shows people killing other people, and in multiple ways!!" Rebuttal: "Where's the crafting? Where's POH? Where's the resource gathering? How does construction work? How does skill progression work?" Responce1: "The graphics are great!!" Responce2: "Watch the video! It clearly shows people killing other people, and in multiple way!!" Even if the PvP combat system is awesome, even if the PvE combat system and AI is awesome, the game will fail. The crafting system is so pathetic they didn't feel they could show more than a second. Construction is almost certainly not a tradeskill, and the buildings are probably just purchased templates. There probably are no real tradeskills in the game other than weapon and armor crafting and mage crafting. My guess, since they chose not to show them, is they are all the same lame process of using a recipe. And without trade skills, this'll be some niche game of PvP players killing other PvP players in supposedly new and novel ways. All the players that PvPers salavate over getting to kill, the crafters, merchanters, explorers, and skillers... Will be off playing a game that actually offers it (like Runescape.... Vanguard.... LotR.... etc....). Proceed with rubuting with "the graphics are great!" or "naval and mounted combat!!!"
About responses..
What you would expect from a provoking troll OP subject ?
About Trade skills, promised are these here ...
Farming
Hunting
Baking
Cooking
Fishing
Mining
Lumberjacking
Herbalism
Blacksmithing
Armorsmithing
Weaponsmithing
Tinkering
Enchanting
Fletching
Alchemy
-----MY-TERMS-OF-USE-------------------------------------------------- $OE - eternal enemy of online gaming -We finally WON !!!! 2011 $OE accepted that they have been fired 2005 by the playerbase and closed down ridiculous NGE !!
"There was suppression of speech and all kinds of things between disturbing and fascistic." Raph Koster (parted $OE)
This thread is funny! OP: "Regardless of how the graphics look, people say the gameplay is more important. But what gameplay does it show?" Responce1: "The graphics are great!!!" Responce2: "Watch the video! It clearly shows people killing other people, and in multiple ways!!" Rebuttal: "Where's the crafting? Where's POH? Where's the resource gathering? How does construction work? How does skill progression work?" Responce1: "The graphics are great!!" Responce2: "Watch the video! It clearly shows people killing other people, and in multiple way!!" Even if the PvP combat system is awesome, even if the PvE combat system and AI is awesome, the game will fail. The crafting system is so pathetic they didn't feel they could show more than a second. Construction is almost certainly not a tradeskill, and the buildings are probably just purchased templates. There probably are no real tradeskills in the game other than weapon and armor crafting and mage crafting. My guess, since they chose not to show them, is they are all the same lame process of using a recipe. And without trade skills, this'll be some niche game of PvP players killing other PvP players in supposedly new and novel ways. All the players that PvPers salavate over getting to kill, the crafters, merchanters, explorers, and skillers... Will be off playing a game that actually offers it (like Runescape.... Vanguard.... LotR.... etc....). Proceed with rubuting with "the graphics are great!" or "naval and mounted combat!!!"
According to some, the world was about to fail yesterday. Yet it didn't.
I place you in that category. So in love with their own opinions that in time belive they are facts.
I mean, if you didn't see crafting in the video, it cannot be there. If you put your head in the ground, the world isn't there either. How about you test the crafting system, THEN make up you mind.
--- And when we got more women on the team, it was like No, no, no. We need puppies and horses in there. John Smedley, SOE
I watched the Darkfall trailer and was entirely unimpressed. The blood splatter in particular was extremely tiresome and overdone for my tastes. By the time they got to the hovercrafts, I was actually laughing. It looked incredibly repetitive and boring to me. There is obviously a seriously fanatic cult following for this game, but I just don't see it's appeal either. I played UO way back when but as soon as I tried EQ, I never looked back. FFA PVP doesn't appeal to me in the least no mattter how fantastic the supposed PVE is. I'm not paying a monthly fee to be someone's ganker fodder. Forced PVP is not worth my time or my money. That said, I do hope this game is successful. If only because it will keep the gankers and PVP fanatics out of whatever PVE focused game I happen to play.
You can find plenty of PvE content in single player games so why do you bother with mmos at all? Online games involve real people so its good to see a game that is actually recognising this fact. While other people are looking forward to games that allow a level of realistic interaction with each other you can still enjoy your single player themepark games that you can play on permanent co-operative mode with your friends where your extremely poor gameplaying skills will never get noticed
About responses.. What you would expect from a provoking troll OP subject ? About Trade skills, promised are these here ... Farming
Hunting
Baking
Cooking
Fishing
Mining
Lumberjacking
Herbalism
Blacksmithing
Armorsmithing
Weaponsmithing
Tinkering
Enchanting
Fletching
Alchemy
Thanks. That's the most complete list I've seen. I hope those and more are in the game, in a complete, dynamic and fun system.
However, it does beg the question, why did they choose not to show any of them except in the most rudimentary possible way? And of course, how do we know these will be in the game, or if they are, that they're not just multiple flavors of one resource gathering skill and one crafting skill. In other words, without knowing how even basic smithing works (except being recipe based), we don't know whether it actually matters whether there's more than one crafting skill. How crafting works is more important than what tradeskills there are, and if implemented badly, how many. And without compelling tradeskills and other non-combat activities, the game will, at best, be a bunch of PvPers killing PvPers, trading loot back and forth.
You can find plenty of PvE content in single player games so why do you bother with mmos at all? Online games involve real people so its good to see a game that is actually recognising this fact. While other people are looking forward to games that allow a level of realistic interaction with each other you can still enjoy your single player themepark games that you can play on permanent co-operative mode with your friends where your extremely poor gameplaying skills will never get noticed
And you can find PvP in Call of Duty, Unreal Tournament, or Team Fortress. Why do you choose to play a mmo at all?
About responses.. What you would expect from a provoking troll OP subject ? About Trade skills, promised are these here ... Farming
Hunting
Baking
Cooking
Fishing
Mining
Lumberjacking
Herbalism
Blacksmithing
Armorsmithing
Weaponsmithing
Tinkering
Enchanting
Fletching
Alchemy
Thanks. That's the most complete list I've seen. I hope those and more are in the game, in a complete, dynamic and fun system.
However, it does beg the question, why did they choose not to show any of them except in the most rudimentary possible way? And of course, how do we know these will be in the game, or if they are, that they're not just multiple flavors of one resource gathering skill and one crafting skill. In other words, without knowing how even basic smithing works (except being recipe based), we don't know whether it actually matters whether there's more than one crafting skill. How crafting works is more important than what tradeskills there are, and if implemented badly, how many. And without compelling tradeskills and other non-combat activities, the game will, at best, be a bunch of PvPers killing PvPers, trading loot back and forth.
from Darkfall's aug 22(maybe 23)
"There's a video coming out, most probably next week, or shortly after. We’re talking about a long 100% in-game pure gameplay trailer with no scripting, no simulation, no post-processing. It’s us play-testing while fraps is running on free cameras and playercams and all the footage was collected and edited. The scenarios for it had to be run as part of our testing and development schedule as they came up. Nothing is scripted. We wanted to give you something that can put you in the true spirit of the game and this requires us to be actually playing the game like you would be, and not just taking you on a sightseeing tour or have a company make a marketing cinematic trailer for us."
Directly from the horses mouth, why the video is how it is. There's two reasons why they didn't elaborate on the crafting. Basically they were frapsing their beta testing, and they wanted to show the actual gameplay. Secondly, watching somebody craft isn't *most* people's idea of an engaging gameplay video, they just wanted to show the action. As far as combat goes, it looks awesome, and with their dedication to making things right, I doubt they'd leave such a large area such as crafting completely dull and unimaginative. I believe I read somewhere the crafting system's going to be thourough and unique?
from Darkfall's aug 22(maybe 23) "There's a video coming out, most probably next week, or shortly after. We’re talking about a long 100% in-game pure gameplay trailer with no scripting, no simulation, no post-processing. It’s us play-testing while fraps is running on free cameras and playercams and all the footage was collected and edited. The scenarios for it had to be run as part of our testing and development schedule as they came up. Nothing is scripted. We wanted to give you something that can put you in the true spirit of the game and this requires us to be actually playing the game like you would be, and not just taking you on a sightseeing tour or have a company make a marketing cinematic trailer for us."
Directly from the horses mouth, why the video is how it is. There's two reasons why they didn't elaborate on the crafting. Basically they were frapsing their beta testing, and they wanted to show the actual gameplay. Secondly, watching somebody craft isn't *most* people's idea of an engaging gameplay video, they just wanted to show the action. As far as combat goes, it looks awesome, and with their dedication to making things right, I doubt they'd leave such a large area such as crafting completely dull and unimaginative. I believe I read somewhere the crafting system's going to be thourough and unique?
from Darkfall's may 23:
We’re looking at releasing a comprehensive video sometime in the next few weeks. We’re doing this ourselves and our first priority is working on the game, so we can’t just slap something together in a couple of days. We also won’t hire a production company to make a Darkfall-inspired cartoon for us, so we’ll be using actual Darkfall gameplay footage like we always do.
from Darkfall's July 18:
While playtesting we're getting a lot of video footage that's going to end up in a video we'll be releasing next month so you'll get an idea of what we've been talking about.
from the FAQ:
For example, there's as much effort going into the quest engine and the crafting process, as there is going into the combat design. Darkfall features the ultimate player based economy, more useful trade skills than any other released MMORPG to date, advanced NPC and monster AI, and a quest engine constantly creating new and challenging content. Furthermore, the game world is huge; you could move to a remote area with your friends and try to create a safe haven for other like-minded players.
From a hypothetical future Q&A:
Q: Since you say you are putting as much effort into quests and crafting as combat (PvP and PvE), would you say a video only showing combat is a comprehensive depiction of Darkfall?
A: We lied.
Q: About putting large effort into quests and crafting, or about the video being comprehensive?
You can find plenty of PvE content in single player games so why do you bother with mmos at all? Online games involve real people so its good to see a game that is actually recognising this fact. While other people are looking forward to games that allow a level of realistic interaction with each other you can still enjoy your single player themepark games that you can play on permanent co-operative mode with your friends where your extremely poor gameplaying skills will never get noticed
And you can find PvP in Call of Duty, Unreal Tournament, or Team Fortress. Why do you choose to play a mmo at all?
(Now apply your answer to playing PvE.)
Yeah you're right you can indeed find PvP in those games......and they're damn good fun! I dont hear people crying about getting ganked in those games so why do we hear about it in so many mmos? The answer is simply that all the level-based crap that has come out so far has been designed to be played as a single player game......the PvP aspect has just been added on as a side dish.
In the three games you mentioned you can play them on your own against the computer or you can go online and any people you see in the game can be attacked or assisted as you see fit. In an mmo it is effectively ALWAYS in multiplayer mode (there is no single player option) and yet most of them are restricted to being played as a single player game on co-op mode. Its completely back to front!
Single player games can only be PvE
Multiplayer games dont have a single player option and yet they are also PvE
Its about time multiplayer games actually became multiplayer games and stopped pandering to weak carebears who want the safety of a single player game with the comfort of having Instant Messenger built into it so they can chat merrily to each other while they fight the computer. I want variety in my games!
Yeah you're right you can indeed find PvP in those games......and they're damn good fun! I dont hear people crying about getting ganked in those games so why do we hear about it in so many mmos? The answer is simply that all the level-based crap that has come out so far has been designed to be played as a single player game......the PvP aspect has just been added on as a side dish. In the three games you mentioned you can play them on your own against the computer or you can go online and any people you see in the game can be attacked or assisted as you see fit. In an mmo it is effectively ALWAYS in multiplayer mode (there is no single player option) and yet most of them are restricted to being played as a single player game on co-op mode. Its completely back to front! Single player games can only be PvE Multiplayer games dont have a single player option and yet they are also PvE Its about time multiplayer games actually became multiplayer games and stopped pandering to weak carebears who want the safety of a single player game with the comfort of having Instant Messenger built into it so they can chat merrily to each other while they fight the computer. I want variety in my games!
This is completely off-topic, but...
First, there's many multiplayer FPS's that allow PvP, and single player PvE, and multiplayer PvE. Not sure about the ones I listed, but I play Battlefield 2, which allows that (i.e. allows bots in multiplayer mode).
Same with mmo's. Many MMO's allow all three (to differing proportions), or two of the three. Having PvP, even without safe zones, is neither unique nor new.
To some extent, I agree about the carebear stuff, but then... It's a game. People should play what they enjoy. The problem is, games need to have difficulty for most people to enjoy them. People complain "it's difficult", and it's made easier, and the same players leave to find a "better" game. There's a fine line... if a game is too easy, there's no point to play. But if I can't craft or quest or whatever without being ganked everytime I turn around, or have to jump through hoops to secure a "safe" zone, it isn't worth playing.
As for why solo play in a MMO... Different people, different reasons. It's nice to play a game at the same time as your friends, using the built in chat. Being able to ask for help doing stuff is nice. Competition of trying to outrank other players, even if it's crafting and competition for resources (or merchanting, etc.) are both compelling. I enjoy cooperatively crafting or questing (not strictly solo, but not combat), or even just helping noobs out. Some like the danger that PvP poses (but dislike PvPing or being PvPed). I also think it provides a purpose to level (I can level, get better loot or craft better items, which I can in turn sell to real people, or give away to those who need it).
Many of these would be the same reason for PvP (real competition, tho a computer could out shoot/slash any human); being able to help out your clan; being able to chat with others; etc.
But the concept that it's either PvP or solo is deeply flawed. If the only way for you to play with others, is to cut their head off... then it's you who has issues, not me.
Yeah you're right you can indeed find PvP in those games......and they're damn good fun! I dont hear people crying about getting ganked in those games so why do we hear about it in so many mmos? The answer is simply that all the level-based crap that has come out so far has been designed to be played as a single player game......the PvP aspect has just been added on as a side dish. In the three games you mentioned you can play them on your own against the computer or you can go online and any people you see in the game can be attacked or assisted as you see fit. In an mmo it is effectively ALWAYS in multiplayer mode (there is no single player option) and yet most of them are restricted to being played as a single player game on co-op mode. Its completely back to front! Single player games can only be PvE Multiplayer games dont have a single player option and yet they are also PvE Its about time multiplayer games actually became multiplayer games and stopped pandering to weak carebears who want the safety of a single player game with the comfort of having Instant Messenger built into it so they can chat merrily to each other while they fight the computer. I want variety in my games!
This is completely off-topic, but...
First, there's many multiplayer FPS's that allow PvP, and single player PvE, and multiplayer PvE. Not sure about the ones I listed, but I play Battlefield 2, which allows that (i.e. allows bots in multiplayer mode).
Same with mmo's. Many MMO's allow all three (to differing proportions), or two of the three. Having PvP, even without safe zones, is neither unique nor new.
To some extent, I agree about the carebear stuff, but then... It's a game. People should play what they enjoy. The problem is, games need to have difficulty for most people to enjoy them. People complain "it's difficult", and it's made easier, and the same players leave to find a "better" game. There's a fine line... if a game is too easy, there's no point to play. But if I can't craft or quest or whatever without being ganked everytime I turn around, or have to jump through hoops to secure a "safe" zone, it isn't worth playing.
As for why solo play in a MMO... Different people, different reasons. It's nice to play a game at the same time as your friends, using the built in chat. Being able to ask for help doing stuff is nice. Competition of trying to outrank other players, even if it's crafting and competition for resources (or merchanting, etc.) are both compelling. I enjoy cooperatively crafting or questing (not strictly solo, but not combat), or even just helping noobs out. Some like the danger that PvP poses (but dislike PvPing or being PvPed). I also think it provides a purpose to level (I can level, get better loot or craft better items, which I can in turn sell to real people, or give away to those who need it).
Many of these would be the same reason for PvP (real competition, tho a computer could out shoot/slash any human); being able to help out your clan; being able to chat with others; etc.
But the concept that it's either PvP or solo is deeply flawed. If the only way for you to play with others, is to cut their head off... then it's you who has issues, not me.
Yeah it is off topic but ah well.....
Yeah actually I do agree with what you are saying there. I dont just want to be able to kill everyone I see but I DO want to be able to choose. If for example I am a poncy nature-hugging elf and I met a gnarly old goblin who was hunting bears near my homeland then I would like to be able to kill the f**ker rather than have the game tell me that I cant because the player might get upset. It cant be that hard to implement a decent PvP system into a game that allows this to happen "within the boundaries of the game" can it?
You say that the concept of a game being either PvP or solo is flawed and yet this is pretty much the way games ARE being made! They all seem to be aimed at the single player side of things which is why the PvP aspect never really works well. I can understand why I suppose as it is easier to make a single player game and its what developers are used to. Its just odd though that mmos generally lack the complexity of a single player and yet on top of that you cant interact with the other players properly either!
I play the Battlefield games too and they are fantastic. Yes they do allow bots in the game which is PvE content but they DONT restrict the players in any way. The game doesnt say "You can kill the bots but you cant kill the players because you will hurt their feelings". As a result the BF games provide a pretty decent and varied game experience that can be pretty intense and exciting because it is the players that are deciding what happens in the game rather than the computer. This is not the case with mmos.
I think maybe mmos need to start either (a) ditching the tired old concept of levels (b) hiding the information from the view of other players so they dont know what they are fighting against (c) introducing clever systems that forced the roleplaying aspect back into roleplaying games and penalising people who ignore these systems or (d) introducing more direct skill based gameplay rather than pure number crunching.
from Darkfall's aug 22(maybe 23) "There's a video coming out, most probably next week, or shortly after. We’re talking about a long 100% in-game pure gameplay trailer with no scripting, no simulation, no post-processing. It’s us play-testing while fraps is running on free cameras and playercams and all the footage was collected and edited. The scenarios for it had to be run as part of our testing and development schedule as they came up. Nothing is scripted. We wanted to give you something that can put you in the true spirit of the game and this requires us to be actually playing the game like you would be, and not just taking you on a sightseeing tour or have a company make a marketing cinematic trailer for us."
Directly from the horses mouth, why the video is how it is. There's two reasons why they didn't elaborate on the crafting. Basically they were frapsing their beta testing, and they wanted to show the actual gameplay. Secondly, watching somebody craft isn't *most* people's idea of an engaging gameplay video, they just wanted to show the action. As far as combat goes, it looks awesome, and with their dedication to making things right, I doubt they'd leave such a large area such as crafting completely dull and unimaginative. I believe I read somewhere the crafting system's going to be thourough and unique?
from Darkfall's may 23:
We’re looking at releasing a comprehensive video sometime in the next few weeks. We’re doing this ourselves and our first priority is working on the game, so we can’t just slap something together in a couple of days. We also won’t hire a production company to make a Darkfall-inspired cartoon for us, so we’ll be using actual Darkfall gameplay footage like we always do.
from Darkfall's July 18:
While playtesting we're getting a lot of video footage that's going to end up in a video we'll be releasing next month so you'll get an idea of what we've been talking about.
from the FAQ:
For example, there's as much effort going into the quest engine and the crafting process, as there is going into the combat design. Darkfall features the ultimate player based economy, more useful trade skills than any other released MMORPG to date, advanced NPC and monster AI, and a quest engine constantly creating new and challenging content. Furthermore, the game world is huge; you could move to a remote area with your friends and try to create a safe haven for other like-minded players.
From a hypothetical future Q&A:
Q: Since you say you are putting as much effort into quests and crafting as combat (PvP and PvE), would you say a video only showing combat is a comprehensive depiction of Darkfall?
A: We lied.
Q: About putting large effort into quests and crafting, or about the video being comprehensive?
A: .............
How many ways are there to make a crafting system work? From the games I've played there doesn't seem to be a whole lot of variation... you collect resources and recepies (or get new recepies for free as you skill up), you convert resources into items as outlined by the recepies, the better your skill, the better the items you create... That's about it, isn't it? How much footage of that do you really need to see?
The only real differences I've heard them talk about in this game are a few new methods of collecting resources (build a farm, mine, or other gathering facility), making everything craftable, and seperating the enchantment process from the building process. Even those things are't really unique to this game, just more rare than the standard crafting system.
My guess is they didn't feel a need to expound on it for whole minutes because it's pretty standard fare in most mmo's. It probably works, for the most part, the same way as every other game. The features that were the most challenging and helped the game stand out from its peers the most got the most screentime (Probably because they needed the most testing). It's not like they didn't use any of the crafting tests they captured on video... but I'm sure the person putting the clips together cut as many of the dull or redundant parts out as he could, and honestly those are the parts that have tons of interface menus and no action (mostly crafting).
Yeah it is off topic but ah well..... Yeah actually I do agree with what you are saying there. I dont just want to be able to kill everyone I see but I DO want to be able to choose. If for example I am a poncy nature-hugging elf and I met a gnarly old goblin who was hunting bears near my homeland then I would like to be able to kill the f**ker rather than have the game tell me that I cant because the player might get upset. It cant be that hard to implement a decent PvP system into a game that allows this to happen "within the boundaries of the game" can it? You say that the concept of a game being either PvP or solo is flawed and yet this is pretty much the way games ARE being made! They all seem to be aimed at the single player side of things which is why the PvP aspect never really works well. I can understand why I suppose as it is easier to make a single player game and its what developers are used to. Its just odd though that mmos generally lack the complexity of a single player and yet on top of that you cant interact with the other players properly either! I play the Battlefield games too and they are fantastic. Yes they do allow bots in the game which is PvE content but they DONT restrict the players in any way. The game doesnt say "You can kill the bots but you cant kill the players because you will hurt their feelings". As a result the BF games provide a pretty decent and varied game experience that can be pretty intense and exciting because it is the players that are deciding what happens in the game rather than the computer. This is not the case with mmos. I think maybe mmos need to start either (a) ditching the tired old concept of levels (b) hiding the information from the view of other players so they dont know what they are fighting against (c) introducing clever systems that forced the roleplaying aspect back into roleplaying games and penalising people who ignore these systems or (d) introducing more direct skill based gameplay rather than pure number crunching.
Freedom to do (or kill) whatever you want is a major problem with MMO's. I believe that is DFO's greatest promise, with great PvP being a side effect of that. Which is why I'm highly concerned about the lack of "solo" content in the video. If crafting sucks, that means I have the choice of PvP or... PvP (or maybe, combat or... combat). The combat engine or AI is independent of that freedom, to some extent. You could have "free" point-and-click PvP in a game like RuneScape. For being able to choose where to go and what to kill (like in Battlefield), there are MMO's that offer that, tho they are dedicated "PvP servers".
The problem, again, is balance. You like PvP. I like PvE (aka "solo"). I want the option to gather and craft how and when I choose, without having to sneak everywhere and/or constantly die. You want the option to gank me. (You probably also want the option to gank me without being constantly ganked yourself.) The two are not incompatible. Most games balance it by limiting freedom (PvP zones, RvR only, partial or even no PvP loot, etc.) But, it can be balanced by giving me, the crafter, a sporting chance to, at least, escape... or by having anti-pking skills (i.e. hiding)... or having more space per population... or any number of other possibilites, that protect my choice to skill and your choice to PvP.
Game designers tendancy to limit freeedom to fix issues permeates the industry. They target segments of players. "Hard core" gamers, or "casual" gamers.... "solo" versus grouping.... grouping versus clans.... combat versus skilling.... quests versus.. uh.. no quests.... long term players versus noobs.... roleplaying versus non-roleplaying...
Something in the game isn't tweaked quite right, like PvPers are making mince-meat out of skillers, and they say, "limit PvP". Instead they should say "give crafters a better chance". "Carebearing" sucks when done wrong, but, if something isn't balanced right (and is fixed well), carebearing can also be a good thing.
Your proposed solutions, though certainly valid, are simply surface attributes of games. The difference between Battlefield and Unreal Tourny. If MMO designers start asking "how does this limit our players?" (and equate that to "how does this limit our demographic?") on each and every feature and rule, then the rest is just fine tuning, or personal taste.
Comments
Here's the full, HIGH-RESOLUTION trailer, no download required:
http://cosmixy.info/darkfall/
Might take some time to load, as it's high-res.
I am starting to belive that OP is so completely ignorant that he has actually only seen PART 1 of the 6 utube movies..
May I suggest that you go and download the ENTIRE game-trailer here:
http://forums.darkfallonline.com/showthread.php?t=64217
It most assuredly features SIEGE/BOAT/PLAYER CITY content. Now go love it!
Yea seriously...
I mean his arguements are very thin as it is...but then to say that they didnt even show boat combat...
That is just a lie lol.
Ship combat was one of the only scene where you saw a lot of different angles including a FIRST PERSON view and also some UI mousing over things and you saw names pop up. But i guess that was all done in the game engine and was faked....they just added the text to fool us all of course!!!
Please, OP got caught trolling. Move on. No boat combat...lol
---sig---
Click this for lulz: http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/173737/page/6
another guy trying to pull the whole eq1 comparison bs....sorry thats played out at this point.
Search for many threads where you see comparisons of all the current gen games and youll find df somewhere between lotro and aoc...and eq1 we have seen the comparisons and you are basically admitting you are a troll by saying that.
seriously the graphics are better than ok, they are good. stop trying to convince us that the screenshots (you do know what a screen shot is right?) is not of in game footage or that the video was made using some other engine etc etc....no one is listening and its getting old.
dude everyone who complains about a single aspect of DF is a troll to you.. EQ1 > that vid.. i played EQ1 and its my opinion i never said it was a fact
ok ill go dl that high res trailer then to see if it can prove me wrong, i wont deny it if thats the case. besides that the graphics are the only thing u can form an opinion of since all trailers (called gameplay trailers) are basically demonstrations to advertise the game, besides some split secs of actual first person gameplay thats it really, the rest of the vid is showing some battles from a few angles to make everything look good, and seeing the amount of fans flocking to these forums (even tho no1 like mmorpg.com) the vid did its job, but till i can play it (in beta) or watch REAL gameplay vids im not gonna plan to buy it
my point is that the DF trailer was the same as every other "gameplay" trailer (yet every DF fan vigourosly defends the game cause of that single trailer.. unlike any other fanbois from other games), show some nice fights and animations/spells/etc. plz enlighten me what the difference is between the DF trailer and a WAR "gameplay" trailer
MMOs currently playing: -
About to play: Lord of the Rings Online
Played: Anarchy Online (alltime favorite) and lots of f2p titles (honorable mentions: 9Dragons, Martial Heroes, Dekaron, Atlantica Online)
well I disagree on both 1 and 2 of your points.
1: Its too much assumption to think that the game is aimed to be released in 3-4 months when they have not set a date. Hell its a MMO we may not see it for another 6-8 months. You never know. So when they set a date that will give us a good guessing point then. For the ones that are not on the Darkfall team which ill venture a guess that is 100% of us, its like guessing the lottery numbers. We have no clue when it will be out.
2: Well if your right here then sadly the OP is right, but I still think your both wrong. The video we got is more for the media/hype/teaser aspect and not for detailed gameplay/features. Its consitant with all other MMO videos that do not have a release date.
The devs have announced that they intend to release by the end of 2008, with a very short beta stress test. If the devs are serious about a 2008 release date, then they have to release before the next four months, or they'll be releasing in 2009.
While I don't disagree that one function of the video was to generate hype, I also feel it did a fair job of giving those who follow it a better idea of how the game is coming along in its internal testing. Yes, they set it to music and cut it to give it a bit of a story, but they also did it in a way designed to hilight several of its more interesting features. Note I said "highlight" and not "fully explain and illustrate".
The trolls are really getting more desperate and obvious arent they......
DF is comming regardless of how many times the trolls try to put it down. You forget that people have that whole free will thing and tend to make their own opinions.
really who is a troll here, its pretty obvious to me that the DF screenshot is not ingame, the vid graphics were MUCH worse. tbh ive played EQ1 and that looks better
im not saying DF sucks cause the graphics suck but you are just fooling yourself with those screenshots
Actually, those screenshots don't look too far removed from the high res footage to me. It was clear from the video that the game supports the complex lignting and environmental effects seen in the screenshot and the polygon count on the characters looks about the same.
I'm not going to say it was graphically perfect. The partical effects and animations need a lot of work, and some of the armor sets just look goofy as sin (though that's more an art thing than a graphics thing). Like I've said before, Most of the MMO's I've played recently look about like the video does because I have to set them to a low to medium setting to get them to run in congested areas like the ones seen in the video.
This is for you and Aragon.
And that would be fine "IF" Combat was Darkfalls only gameplay feature. Which they have said it's NOT. Yes, the game is PvP centric. Aventurine also took the time (my own impressions from their jounrals) to do a proper PvE and Crafting/Harvest. If Darkfall was nothing more then a Fury clone. That video would have been the best representation for a gameplay video EVER. However Darkfall is a PvP centric Sandbox MMO, with PvE, and Crafting of Houses/GuildHalls/Boats/etc.
Most of the video bits they cut out to get it down to that size and length. Probably contained the portions of Darkfall that the rest of us are also interested in. It's fine if combat is enough for you. For me personally though. If you tell me your game has x, y, and Z as gameplay features. When you make a gameplay movie, I would think you wouldn't exclude x and y. That's just me though.
It's nothing wrong with putting your best foot forward. That is to be expected. In Darkfalls case it would seem to be Combat which is fine. That's not really a good reason to not bother showing the other stuff.
Edit: Just incase that wasn't clear enough bongloads. The video was called a "comprehensive gameplay video" correct? Here is the definition of the word, as noted by Webster.
Main Entry:
com·pre·hen·sive Listen to the pronunciation of comprehensive
Pronunciation:
-?hen(t)-siv
Function:
adjective
Date:
1614
1 : covering completely or broadly : inclusive <comprehensive examinations> <comprehensive insurance> 2 : having or exhibiting wide mental grasp <comprehensive knowledge>
— com·pre·hen·sive·ly adverb
— com·pre·hen·sive·ness noun
In War - Victory.
In Peace - Vigilance.
In Death - Sacrifice.
This is for you and Aragon.
And that would be fine "IF" Combat was Darkfalls only gameplay feature. Which they have said it's NOT. Yes, the game is PvP centric. Aventurine also took the time (my own impressions from their jounrals) to do a proper PvE and Crafting/Harvest. If Darkfall was nothing more then a Fury clone. That video would have been the best representation for a gameplay video EVER. However Darkfall is a PvP centric Sandbox MMO, with PvE, and Crafting of Houses/GuildHalls/Boats/etc.
Most of the video bits they cut out to get it down to that size and length. Probably contained the portions of Darkfall that the rest of us are also interested in. It's fine if combat is enough for you. For me personally though. If you tell me your game has x, y, and Z as gameplay features. When you make a gameplay movie, I would think you wouldn't exclude x and y. That's just me though.
It's nothing wrong with putting your best foot forward. That is to be expected. In Darkfalls case it would seem to be Combat which is fine. That's not really a good reason to not bother showing the other stuff.
Edit: Just incase that wasn't clear enough bongloads. The video was called a "comprehensive gameplay video" correct? Here is the definition of the word, as noted by Webster.
Main Entry:
com·pre·hen·sive Listen to the pronunciation of comprehensive
Pronunciation:
-?hen(t)-siv
Function:
adjective
Date:
1614
1 : covering completely or broadly : inclusive <comprehensive examinations> <comprehensive insurance> 2 : having or exhibiting wide mental grasp <comprehensive knowledge>
— com·pre·hen·sive·ly adverb
— com·pre·hen·sive·ness noun
you will get to see it soon enough
<--- Waits anxiously for a actual player to get there hands on DF. Video didn't impress me.
Yes you are 100% correct.
See the problem with the Darkfall fanboys is that they CONSTANTLY TAKE WORDS AS FACT.
This video proved ABSOLUTELY NOTHING beyond the fact that they have what appears to be a combat system which everyone knew they had for years already.
It does not prove they have 95% of the other features even in the game and functioning properly.
You know all those other features that were the main reason anyone even followed this game to begin with.
Why didn't they make a video of actual people PLAYING the game?? Why did they make another generic scripted trailer? It would have been so much easier just to launch the game and PLAY it while recording.
They could easily made both. A trailer and a simple video with someone actually playing the game. Creating a character , entering the world , crafting something , selling stuff , etc etc.. REAL GAMEPLAY footage.
The video they released had absolutely nothing new in it. It was just a longer more drawn out version of the older shorter videos.
I am still waiting for an explanation as to why they had to settle for some unknown , inexperienced DVD distribution company with software piracy problems to publish for them when they have the mother of all MMORPG's better than any ever made.
hilarious.
I don't know why you are even arguing about this, the fans can't prove the features are in the game and the nay-sayers can't prove they aren't. Argueing about it is just a waste of everyone's time.
Until the beta comes out nobody has any idea what the game will be like.
Both the fanboys and trolls are as stupid as each other.
Yes you are 100% correct.
See the problem with the Darkfall fanboys is that they CONSTANTLY TAKE WORDS AS FACT.
This video proved ABSOLUTELY NOTHING beyond the fact that they have what appears to be a combat system which everyone knew they had for years already.
It does not prove they have 95% of the other features even in the game and functioning properly.
You know all those other features that were the main reason anyone even followed this game to begin with.
Why didn't they make a video of actual people PLAYING the game?? Why did they make another generic scripted trailer? It would have been so much easier just to launch the game and PLAY it while recording.
They could easily made both. A trailer and a simple video with someone actually playing the game. Creating a character , entering the world , crafting something , selling stuff , etc etc.. REAL GAMEPLAY footage.
The video they released had absolutely nothing new in it. It was just a longer more drawn out version of the older shorter videos.
I am still waiting for an explanation as to why they had to settle for some unknown , inexperienced DVD distribution company with software piracy problems to publish for them when they have the mother of all MMORPG's better than any ever made.
hilarious.
i dont believe them until i see it but i still trust them because i have no reason not too.
because thats just it ther not really a publisher there just there to distribute the game..
and iwth that they have no control over the game a big name publisher would want soem controls darkfall devs dont want to give it
The OP will not be happy until he can see it for him self. I feel the same way. The game has been in development for 8 years? I would take anything they say currently with a grain of salt until I see a forum post or email saying "Beta invites have started".
Also to respond to the OP. The video did show everything you wanted. It of course did not show the materials being combined or the process to build a wall, building, or tank. It did show the game dynamics up to a point. It showed archers using range/distance/height, casters using knock back, tanks using collision based tactics to keep the enemy in a corner. It shows a little of everything. It wasn't meant to hold your hand and walk you through a narrated video of how you click the mouse to shoot an arrow.
This thread is funny!
OP: "Regardless of how the graphics look, people say the gameplay is more important. But what gameplay does it show?"
Responce1: "The graphics are great!!!"
Responce2: "Watch the video! It clearly shows people killing other people, and in multiple ways!!"
Rebuttal: "Where's the crafting? Where's POH? Where's the resource gathering? How does construction work? How does skill progression work?"
Responce1: "The graphics are great!!"
Responce2: "Watch the video! It clearly shows people killing other people, and in multiple way!!"
Even if the PvP combat system is awesome, even if the PvE combat system and AI is awesome, the game will fail. The crafting system is so pathetic they didn't feel they could show more than a second. Construction is almost certainly not a tradeskill, and the buildings are probably just purchased templates. There probably are no real tradeskills in the game other than weapon and armor crafting and mage crafting. My guess, since they chose not to show them, is they are all the same lame process of using a recipe.
And without trade skills, this'll be some niche game of PvP players killing other PvP players in supposedly new and novel ways. All the players that PvPers salavate over getting to kill, the crafters, merchanters, explorers, and skillers... Will be off playing a game that actually offers it (like Runescape.... Vanguard.... LotR.... etc....).
Proceed with rubuting with "the graphics are great!" or "naval and mounted combat!!!"
About responses..
What you would expect from a provoking troll OP subject ?
About Trade skills, promised are these here ...
Farming
Hunting
Baking
Cooking
Fishing
Mining
Lumberjacking
Herbalism
Blacksmithing
Armorsmithing
Weaponsmithing
Tinkering
Enchanting
Fletching
Alchemy
-----MY-TERMS-OF-USE--------------------------------------------------
$OE - eternal enemy of online gaming
-We finally WON !!!! 2011 $OE accepted that they have been fired 2005 by the playerbase and closed down ridiculous NGE !!
"There was suppression of speech and all kinds of things between disturbing and fascistic." Raph Koster (parted $OE)
According to some, the world was about to fail yesterday. Yet it didn't.
I place you in that category. So in love with their own opinions that in time belive they are facts.
I mean, if you didn't see crafting in the video, it cannot be there. If you put your head in the ground, the world isn't there either. How about you test the crafting system, THEN make up you mind.
---
And when we got more women on the team, it was like No, no, no. We need puppies and horses in there.
John Smedley, SOE
You can find plenty of PvE content in single player games so why do you bother with mmos at all? Online games involve real people so its good to see a game that is actually recognising this fact. While other people are looking forward to games that allow a level of realistic interaction with each other you can still enjoy your single player themepark games that you can play on permanent co-operative mode with your friends where your extremely poor gameplaying skills will never get noticed
Thanks. That's the most complete list I've seen. I hope those and more are in the game, in a complete, dynamic and fun system.
However, it does beg the question, why did they choose not to show any of them except in the most rudimentary possible way? And of course, how do we know these will be in the game, or if they are, that they're not just multiple flavors of one resource gathering skill and one crafting skill. In other words, without knowing how even basic smithing works (except being recipe based), we don't know whether it actually matters whether there's more than one crafting skill. How crafting works is more important than what tradeskills there are, and if implemented badly, how many. And without compelling tradeskills and other non-combat activities, the game will, at best, be a bunch of PvPers killing PvPers, trading loot back and forth.
And you can find PvP in Call of Duty, Unreal Tournament, or Team Fortress. Why do you choose to play a mmo at all?
(Now apply your answer to playing PvE.)
Thanks. That's the most complete list I've seen. I hope those and more are in the game, in a complete, dynamic and fun system.
However, it does beg the question, why did they choose not to show any of them except in the most rudimentary possible way? And of course, how do we know these will be in the game, or if they are, that they're not just multiple flavors of one resource gathering skill and one crafting skill. In other words, without knowing how even basic smithing works (except being recipe based), we don't know whether it actually matters whether there's more than one crafting skill. How crafting works is more important than what tradeskills there are, and if implemented badly, how many. And without compelling tradeskills and other non-combat activities, the game will, at best, be a bunch of PvPers killing PvPers, trading loot back and forth.
from Darkfall's aug 22(maybe 23)
"There's a video coming out, most probably next week, or shortly after. We’re talking about a long 100% in-game pure gameplay trailer with no scripting, no simulation, no post-processing. It’s us play-testing while fraps is running on free cameras and playercams and all the footage was collected and edited. The scenarios for it had to be run as part of our testing and development schedule as they came up. Nothing is scripted. We wanted to give you something that can put you in the true spirit of the game and this requires us to be actually playing the game like you would be, and not just taking you on a sightseeing tour or have a company make a marketing cinematic trailer for us."
Directly from the horses mouth, why the video is how it is. There's two reasons why they didn't elaborate on the crafting. Basically they were frapsing their beta testing, and they wanted to show the actual gameplay. Secondly, watching somebody craft isn't *most* people's idea of an engaging gameplay video, they just wanted to show the action. As far as combat goes, it looks awesome, and with their dedication to making things right, I doubt they'd leave such a large area such as crafting completely dull and unimaginative. I believe I read somewhere the crafting system's going to be thourough and unique?
from Darkfall's may 23:
We’re looking at releasing a comprehensive video sometime in the next few weeks. We’re doing this ourselves and our first priority is working on the game, so we can’t just slap something together in a couple of days. We also won’t hire a production company to make a Darkfall-inspired cartoon for us, so we’ll be using actual Darkfall gameplay footage like we always do.
from Darkfall's July 18:
While playtesting we're getting a lot of video footage that's going to end up in a video we'll be releasing next month so you'll get an idea of what we've been talking about.
from the FAQ:
For example, there's as much effort going into the quest engine and the crafting process, as there is going into the combat design. Darkfall features the ultimate player based economy, more useful trade skills than any other released MMORPG to date, advanced NPC and monster AI, and a quest engine constantly creating new and challenging content. Furthermore, the game world is huge; you could move to a remote area with your friends and try to create a safe haven for other like-minded players.
From a hypothetical future Q&A:
Q: Since you say you are putting as much effort into quests and crafting as combat (PvP and PvE), would you say a video only showing combat is a comprehensive depiction of Darkfall?
A: We lied.
Q: About putting large effort into quests and crafting, or about the video being comprehensive?
A: .............
And you can find PvP in Call of Duty, Unreal Tournament, or Team Fortress. Why do you choose to play a mmo at all?
(Now apply your answer to playing PvE.)
Yeah you're right you can indeed find PvP in those games......and they're damn good fun! I dont hear people crying about getting ganked in those games so why do we hear about it in so many mmos? The answer is simply that all the level-based crap that has come out so far has been designed to be played as a single player game......the PvP aspect has just been added on as a side dish.
In the three games you mentioned you can play them on your own against the computer or you can go online and any people you see in the game can be attacked or assisted as you see fit. In an mmo it is effectively ALWAYS in multiplayer mode (there is no single player option) and yet most of them are restricted to being played as a single player game on co-op mode. Its completely back to front!
Single player games can only be PvE
Multiplayer games dont have a single player option and yet they are also PvE
Its about time multiplayer games actually became multiplayer games and stopped pandering to weak carebears who want the safety of a single player game with the comfort of having Instant Messenger built into it so they can chat merrily to each other while they fight the computer. I want variety in my games!
This is completely off-topic, but...
First, there's many multiplayer FPS's that allow PvP, and single player PvE, and multiplayer PvE. Not sure about the ones I listed, but I play Battlefield 2, which allows that (i.e. allows bots in multiplayer mode).
Same with mmo's. Many MMO's allow all three (to differing proportions), or two of the three. Having PvP, even without safe zones, is neither unique nor new.
To some extent, I agree about the carebear stuff, but then... It's a game. People should play what they enjoy. The problem is, games need to have difficulty for most people to enjoy them. People complain "it's difficult", and it's made easier, and the same players leave to find a "better" game. There's a fine line... if a game is too easy, there's no point to play. But if I can't craft or quest or whatever without being ganked everytime I turn around, or have to jump through hoops to secure a "safe" zone, it isn't worth playing.
As for why solo play in a MMO... Different people, different reasons. It's nice to play a game at the same time as your friends, using the built in chat. Being able to ask for help doing stuff is nice. Competition of trying to outrank other players, even if it's crafting and competition for resources (or merchanting, etc.) are both compelling. I enjoy cooperatively crafting or questing (not strictly solo, but not combat), or even just helping noobs out. Some like the danger that PvP poses (but dislike PvPing or being PvPed). I also think it provides a purpose to level (I can level, get better loot or craft better items, which I can in turn sell to real people, or give away to those who need it).
Many of these would be the same reason for PvP (real competition, tho a computer could out shoot/slash any human); being able to help out your clan; being able to chat with others; etc.
But the concept that it's either PvP or solo is deeply flawed. If the only way for you to play with others, is to cut their head off... then it's you who has issues, not me.
This is completely off-topic, but...
First, there's many multiplayer FPS's that allow PvP, and single player PvE, and multiplayer PvE. Not sure about the ones I listed, but I play Battlefield 2, which allows that (i.e. allows bots in multiplayer mode).
Same with mmo's. Many MMO's allow all three (to differing proportions), or two of the three. Having PvP, even without safe zones, is neither unique nor new.
To some extent, I agree about the carebear stuff, but then... It's a game. People should play what they enjoy. The problem is, games need to have difficulty for most people to enjoy them. People complain "it's difficult", and it's made easier, and the same players leave to find a "better" game. There's a fine line... if a game is too easy, there's no point to play. But if I can't craft or quest or whatever without being ganked everytime I turn around, or have to jump through hoops to secure a "safe" zone, it isn't worth playing.
As for why solo play in a MMO... Different people, different reasons. It's nice to play a game at the same time as your friends, using the built in chat. Being able to ask for help doing stuff is nice. Competition of trying to outrank other players, even if it's crafting and competition for resources (or merchanting, etc.) are both compelling. I enjoy cooperatively crafting or questing (not strictly solo, but not combat), or even just helping noobs out. Some like the danger that PvP poses (but dislike PvPing or being PvPed). I also think it provides a purpose to level (I can level, get better loot or craft better items, which I can in turn sell to real people, or give away to those who need it).
Many of these would be the same reason for PvP (real competition, tho a computer could out shoot/slash any human); being able to help out your clan; being able to chat with others; etc.
But the concept that it's either PvP or solo is deeply flawed. If the only way for you to play with others, is to cut their head off... then it's you who has issues, not me.
Yeah it is off topic but ah well.....
Yeah actually I do agree with what you are saying there. I dont just want to be able to kill everyone I see but I DO want to be able to choose. If for example I am a poncy nature-hugging elf and I met a gnarly old goblin who was hunting bears near my homeland then I would like to be able to kill the f**ker rather than have the game tell me that I cant because the player might get upset. It cant be that hard to implement a decent PvP system into a game that allows this to happen "within the boundaries of the game" can it?
You say that the concept of a game being either PvP or solo is flawed and yet this is pretty much the way games ARE being made! They all seem to be aimed at the single player side of things which is why the PvP aspect never really works well. I can understand why I suppose as it is easier to make a single player game and its what developers are used to. Its just odd though that mmos generally lack the complexity of a single player and yet on top of that you cant interact with the other players properly either!
I play the Battlefield games too and they are fantastic. Yes they do allow bots in the game which is PvE content but they DONT restrict the players in any way. The game doesnt say "You can kill the bots but you cant kill the players because you will hurt their feelings". As a result the BF games provide a pretty decent and varied game experience that can be pretty intense and exciting because it is the players that are deciding what happens in the game rather than the computer. This is not the case with mmos.
I think maybe mmos need to start either (a) ditching the tired old concept of levels (b) hiding the information from the view of other players so they dont know what they are fighting against (c) introducing clever systems that forced the roleplaying aspect back into roleplaying games and penalising people who ignore these systems or (d) introducing more direct skill based gameplay rather than pure number crunching.
from Darkfall's may 23:
We’re looking at releasing a comprehensive video sometime in the next few weeks. We’re doing this ourselves and our first priority is working on the game, so we can’t just slap something together in a couple of days. We also won’t hire a production company to make a Darkfall-inspired cartoon for us, so we’ll be using actual Darkfall gameplay footage like we always do.
from Darkfall's July 18:
While playtesting we're getting a lot of video footage that's going to end up in a video we'll be releasing next month so you'll get an idea of what we've been talking about.
from the FAQ:
For example, there's as much effort going into the quest engine and the crafting process, as there is going into the combat design. Darkfall features the ultimate player based economy, more useful trade skills than any other released MMORPG to date, advanced NPC and monster AI, and a quest engine constantly creating new and challenging content. Furthermore, the game world is huge; you could move to a remote area with your friends and try to create a safe haven for other like-minded players.
From a hypothetical future Q&A:
Q: Since you say you are putting as much effort into quests and crafting as combat (PvP and PvE), would you say a video only showing combat is a comprehensive depiction of Darkfall?
A: We lied.
Q: About putting large effort into quests and crafting, or about the video being comprehensive?
A: .............
How many ways are there to make a crafting system work? From the games I've played there doesn't seem to be a whole lot of variation... you collect resources and recepies (or get new recepies for free as you skill up), you convert resources into items as outlined by the recepies, the better your skill, the better the items you create... That's about it, isn't it? How much footage of that do you really need to see?
The only real differences I've heard them talk about in this game are a few new methods of collecting resources (build a farm, mine, or other gathering facility), making everything craftable, and seperating the enchantment process from the building process. Even those things are't really unique to this game, just more rare than the standard crafting system.
My guess is they didn't feel a need to expound on it for whole minutes because it's pretty standard fare in most mmo's. It probably works, for the most part, the same way as every other game. The features that were the most challenging and helped the game stand out from its peers the most got the most screentime (Probably because they needed the most testing). It's not like they didn't use any of the crafting tests they captured on video... but I'm sure the person putting the clips together cut as many of the dull or redundant parts out as he could, and honestly those are the parts that have tons of interface menus and no action (mostly crafting).
Freedom to do (or kill) whatever you want is a major problem with MMO's. I believe that is DFO's greatest promise, with great PvP being a side effect of that. Which is why I'm highly concerned about the lack of "solo" content in the video. If crafting sucks, that means I have the choice of PvP or... PvP (or maybe, combat or... combat). The combat engine or AI is independent of that freedom, to some extent. You could have "free" point-and-click PvP in a game like RuneScape. For being able to choose where to go and what to kill (like in Battlefield), there are MMO's that offer that, tho they are dedicated "PvP servers".
The problem, again, is balance. You like PvP. I like PvE (aka "solo"). I want the option to gather and craft how and when I choose, without having to sneak everywhere and/or constantly die. You want the option to gank me. (You probably also want the option to gank me without being constantly ganked yourself.) The two are not incompatible. Most games balance it by limiting freedom (PvP zones, RvR only, partial or even no PvP loot, etc.) But, it can be balanced by giving me, the crafter, a sporting chance to, at least, escape... or by having anti-pking skills (i.e. hiding)... or having more space per population... or any number of other possibilites, that protect my choice to skill and your choice to PvP.
Game designers tendancy to limit freeedom to fix issues permeates the industry. They target segments of players. "Hard core" gamers, or "casual" gamers.... "solo" versus grouping.... grouping versus clans.... combat versus skilling.... quests versus.. uh.. no quests.... long term players versus noobs.... roleplaying versus non-roleplaying...
Something in the game isn't tweaked quite right, like PvPers are making mince-meat out of skillers, and they say, "limit PvP". Instead they should say "give crafters a better chance". "Carebearing" sucks when done wrong, but, if something isn't balanced right (and is fixed well), carebearing can also be a good thing.
Your proposed solutions, though certainly valid, are simply surface attributes of games. The difference between Battlefield and Unreal Tourny. If MMO designers start asking "how does this limit our players?" (and equate that to "how does this limit our demographic?") on each and every feature and rule, then the rest is just fine tuning, or personal taste.