Of course I wouldn't sign, just like I won't be buying a preorder for this game. Why should they be required to prove the game is good? If you think that this is bad pr then don't buy it. Are so people so stupid or unable to control their own actions that they do not trust themselves to wait until after release to buy the game? Really if people think it's a real scam then they should be contacting the authorities, if they think it's just going to be a bad game and that they will not be able to stop themselves from purchasing it they should contact a doctor.
oddly I agree with you, (rare that) Dispite the missinformation, Disinformation, and outright lies often spread here by the fans. I do feel everyone is responsible to be able to watch out for themselves at least this much. MMORPG.COM is not here to hold our hands and safegaurd us. If someones dumb enough to preorder DF basically sight unseen. then its on them. The interesting part being most of the Fans here aren't even willing to do so.
I agree entirely with this thread, MMORPG.com should attempt to protect its "customers", even if they're too stupid to protect themselves. I tend to hold to the idea that if you're an idiot, I deserve your money. But all this genre and industry needs is another failure...
------------------------------- It's honestly like everyone logs onto WoW, and games like WoW, just to masturbate. Everyone plays by themselves, and when they don't, they get what they want and get off. ------------------------------- Originally posted by atziluth... Ah yes when the unreasonable are faced with reason they must resort to personal attacks...When you are ready to move up from the kids table you can talk with the grown ups.
I agree. If MMORPG are going to continue listing DF it is time they/we were shown proof of its current state. They can't continue to hide the game away and have people take them seriously. It seems to me that the game is not fit to play and yet they're talking of pre-ordering. Unfortunately some of the fanboys are just gullible enough to fall for it.
That is probably just what Aventurine WANTS.. did you read the latest news? This rather epic quote is from that said news "Hype surrounding Darkfall is huge right now, despite our best efforts"link
Was that "best efforts" where Tasos a month ago hyped that Darkfall was feature complete and more bug free then most MMO's 3 months after launch?
hehe ok i might be being alittle nit-picky there.
But just out of curiousity do you think Tasos will slow down now on what possibly might be called his Boastfullness?
I agree entirely with this thread, MMORPG.com should attempt to protect its "customers", even if they're too stupid to protect themselves. I tend to hold to the idea that if you're an idiot, I deserve your money. But all this genre and industry needs is another failure...
Sorry but people do have to learn from their mistakes sooner or later. One can not go through life thinking everyones gonna protect them. Sometimes we have to learn the Hardway. As much as i'd like MMORPG.COM to ask hardball question and take off the knit gloves. I do not view it as their job to try and protect everyone that logs in here to read a artical.
"...customers would get a free trial of the game..."
Being "customers" assumes they have already paid for the product, making a "free trial" moot.
Sorry, bad choice of words : "future customers", "potential customers", "people interested in the game" ?
Thank you for highlighting such an essential point in what I said.
... Eh... Wait... I should'nt write "said", but "wrote" !! You nearly got me again !!
You do know they wrote that people who pre-ordered DarkFall would get precedance over those that didn't, and that even some of those might not get into the "free trial". Meaning in effect that those that did not pre-order the game would not get a chance at the "free trial" So its not really future customers since they have to already buy the game to get into the "free trial".
Originally posted by admriker4 I dont know if mmorpg.com has asked about a sneak peek for Darkfall but with the latest doings, it seems time to demand it. For our sake, after all there have been a few scams in the past few years. mmo players are growing tired of indie developers asking for pre-order money then come launch day the game is 95% unfinished. It would sure be nice if mmorpg.com could step in here and protect the community from a possible scam here with Darkfall. At this point, all we've seen is a graniy edited video from a yr ago. There isnt much proof that this game even exists. And there are beta leaks that suggest the game is empty like Dark and Light was. My suggestion, mmorpg.com contacts Tasos and asks for a beta key to see for themselves if the game exists and delivers on its promises. A review is due us BEFORE we start giving an unproven and unknown developer money for an MMO we dont even know works. If Tasos refuses, pull Darkfall off the mmorpg.com list and post an article warning the community of a potential scam. If Tasos and Adventurine want to be taken seriously they will comply. If the game is just another scam where they grab all the money they can before launch day and then run for the hills, then it should be easy for mmorpg.com to find out in beta scams only hurt the industry. If this is another D&L players are going to be very leary of ever pre-ordering again. Plus it makes other indy devs look bad. Please look into this and confirm the game exists and works or let us know otherwise
wait for this
Starting on January 22nd there will be a Darkfall trial with the distribution of the release candidate client allowing thousands of players to sample the game for free, help us stress test our servers and test the final features of the game.
Originally posted by admriker4 Its not unreasonable or unethical to ask for a beta key to review the game. And since Adventurine has offered little proof the game actually exists why should mmorpg.com continue to help promote a possible fraud ? Listing them here legitimizes them.
I would say it is unethical to threaten the devs with reprisals if they do not meet their demands. It would better for you to just ask them to remove the forum.
If they started behaving like that it would not surprise me if this site ended up on media blacklist with all developers.
You can call it threaten, but in fact it is not threatening them at all. Having proof that the game is coming out shows that mmorpg.com can be a trusted website.
By having MMO's that do not come out or are scams it makes mmorpg.com its self look bad. So its a way for mmorpg.com to be safe and not get a bad rep, and allow the community of mmorpg.com to trust mmorpg.com.
If I was the owner of this website I would be extremely skeptical of this game, especialy after the resent delay. They make so many claims and yet they delay it. They claim its jam packed and more complete than most MMO's on the market today.
Those are huge claims. I personaly feel for this website mmorpg.com that they need to make sure that they are not advertising a game that may or may not be a scam. They should watch their own back and ask for real 100% proof in the form of playing the game so they do not look bad.
Look at it this way. If someone came to you or a company with say this amazing new product to help repair arthritus not stop the pian but repair. But had no real evidence. Now thats a huge huge claim. Big! Now lets just say they just spew out alot of random info about it yet have no real testing to show if it really works. They have maybe 10 to 15 people claim it works yet you don't have their medical history, or know if they are paid off. The company refuses to show off their statistics and number of testers and do not allow you to come into contact with these 10 to 15 people that have video claims or working. Would you invest your money into it?
So you want a third party website to attempt to pressure a developer into meeting your demands? That's totally unethical. If they do not want to maintain a DF forum on this then that is fine, just remove it. However going to a developer and demanding beta access whilst threatening to remove their forum and post defamatory comments if they don't agree is completely beyond what is reasonable, if they did this I think that this site would come under an awful lot scrutiny from the general gaming world. This website is not here to police developers if you think a scam is being perputrated you should contact the real police. If you think it is not real scam and just that a shoddy product will be sold and you are going to buy ut perhaps you need policing from yourself?
Yes I do want them to pressure for a look. Its not unethical either.
mmorpg.com is a website that caters to the MMO fans. It represents MMO's that have launched and will launch. They owe it to us to properly list legitimate games that arent just a scam to steal money from us. It reflects badly on the industry but mmorpg.com as well.
mmorpg.com lists Darkfall as an MMO soon to launch. The least they can (especially considering all of the ripoffs lately) is to ask for proof the game exists and works as promised.
Its not unreasonable or unethical to ask for a beta key to review the game. And since Adventurine has offered little proof the game actually exists why should mmorpg.com continue to help promote a possible fraud ? Listing them here legitimizes them.
Dark and Light, I hate to bring them up again but they had released far more info than Tasos has. They had videos, tons of screenshots, but like Darkfall they were missing a legit review. We know why they didnt allow a review today dont we.
McQuaid was just like Tasos with Vanguard. He took on a semi-god status with the fanbois. Whatever he said was considered the holy scripture and couldnt possibly be false. He was attacked and criticised by many but the fanbois defended him with vicious ferver. The critics just wanted proof the game was as advertised but were attacked by McQuad's defenders. McQuaid was a total fraud. He made his cash and then sold the game to the devil (SOE) which was ironic considering the game was marketed to the fanbois as the anti-SOE true sequel to EQ.
Since history hasnt been kind, we should ignore that and allow another developer to rob us ? Its a simple request, show us the goods.
"...customers would get a free trial of the game..."
Being "customers" assumes they have already paid for the product, making a "free trial" moot.
Sorry, bad choice of words : "future customers", "potential customers", "people interested in the game" ?
Thank you for highlighting such an essential point in what I said.
... Eh... Wait... I should'nt write "said", but "wrote" !! You nearly got me again !!
You do know they wrote that people who pre-ordered DarkFall would get precedance over those that didn't, and that even some of those might not get into the "free trial". Meaning in effect that those that did not pre-order the game would not get a chance at the "free trial" So its not really future customers since they have to already buy the game to get into the "free trial".
This is just plain wrong!
Pre orders will begin in mid FEBRUARY
Trial will begin 22nd JANUARY
Are they going to use a crystal ball?????
***************************** I have nothing clever to say.
Look at it this way. If someone came to you or a company with say this amazing new product to help repair arthritus not stop the pian but repair. But had no real evidence. ...
A better example is the Perpetual Motion machine.
There are Patents, designs,drawings and if you Google it - even Video (more than for Darkfall!)
Yet no-one can actually make one that works. Not really.
The gamers itself should be more then wise enough when it comes to their own money and creditcard!
I wouldn't mind if MMORPG.com would do some real journalism here and start a thorough investigation on Tasos, Aventurine, their partners and their game.
But in the end, it's YOUR money and YOUR creditcard!
If NO ONE pre-orders, then they are forced to go a different route, come back from it and do a free trial, like they promised before.
If their game is REALLY ready, then they won't need Pre-Orders and almost everyone that is going to try the trial will buy the game. They wouldn't need to worry.
But appearently they are worried and suddenly come up with a Pre-Order program. Alarm bell anyone? DeJaVu anyone?
So if you as gamer are so BLIND and IGNORE all the signals and alarm bells there are... and still going to Pre-Order the game, then sorry... again... you then deserve to be scammed!
Seriously, The gamers itself should be more then wise enough when it comes to their own money and creditcard! I wouldn't mind if MMORPG.com would do some real journalism here and start a thorough investigation on Tasos, Aventurine, their partners and their game.
But in the end, it's YOUR money and YOUR creditcard! If NO ONE pre-orders, then they are forced to go a different route, come back from it and do a free trial, like they promised before. If their game is REALLY ready, then they won't need Pre-Orders and almost everyone that is going to try the trial will buy the game. They wouldn't need to worry. But appearently they are worried and suddenly come up with a Pre-Order program. Alarm bell anyone? DeJaVu anyone?
So if you as gamer are so BLIND and IGNORE all the signals and alarm bells there are... and still going to Pre-Order the game, then sorry... again... you then deserve to be scammed! Cheers
except the ype for the game is bigger than what they though so they have to do pre orders to judge servers they will need even tho i dont think they can handle abig launch like i said before
Yes, I think it is time to call Aventurine out. What happened to all those player testimonials? Were those made up? Because those painted a picture of a polished product with a "few areas needing tweaking." What happened to, "Darkfall is more polished than most MMO's..." Tasos said that in his first interview with Stradden. What about the rest of the interviews painting a rosy picture? Was the above just lies to lure players and perhaps attract investors? What's up with the ironclad NDA? Why only one source of leaks? Where is the update section on there website showing a product in development? A guess a white border is an update... silly me. Aventurine has lost my trust. Sure, any MMO could get delayed, but this has been ongoing for years and most MMO's aren't shrouded in such secrecy. Most don't have a PR guy saying how it is the best thing since bread and butter on one hand and showing NOTHING on the other. I asked for VERIFIED info (those not from Aventurine controlled sources) and they failed to deliver. I have to wonder if NDA stands for Not Doing Anything in this case. Now they hint at a pre-order? Now they want my money? Sorry, only a fool would pay money at this stage of the game. Now, I probably WON'T play DF until it releases and a multitude of players verify that it is indeed a worthy experience. And since MMORPG.com is featuring this game on their site, they too are playing a part, and yes, as the OP mentioned, they might just want to cover their butts to save face.
ilol you odnt understand at all it is mroe polsihed its just they want ot actulyl test right instead of thinking everythign will be ok like AOC did with there high end content
But appearently they are worried and suddenly come up with a Pre-Order program. Alarm bell anyone? DeJaVu anyone?
What type of deja vu do you mean? The type seen in 95% of MMO projects? Then, yes.
Just because 2-3 games grabbed the money and run...doesn't mean all games will do that
Dude, seriously, go pre-order! Go give them all your Credit card details already! I don't care.
They don't have to grab and run. Dark and Light didn't do it either.
People could actually log in and play for more then a year! Longer then Tabula Rasa lol.
That the Dark and Light game world was basically empty and 95% of the promissed features were either not present or just horribly bugged is a different thing.
So you see.... there are many more ways to scam people.
seems like a scam - I will wait on the sidelines with cautious optimism.
good luck, preorderers.
As for mmorpg.com - well, they don't really HAVE to go out of their way to get us details... but I think it'd be better for everyone if we had some decent proof that this game exists, and is decent.
I am playing EVE and it's alright... level V skills are a bit much.
except the ype for the game is bigger than what they though so they have to do pre orders to judge servers they will need even tho i dont think they can handle abig launch like i said before
WoW now who do you think caused all that hype? I wonder...
This is exactly what happened to Wish except those guys knew when to throw in the towel.
The results were awesome!! There was another game we never played, will never get to play, and it was amazing. The trolls won!!! It never came out!!! Sweet! Now let's go back to the awesome MMORPG's that are out right now and celebrate our victory!! Oh shit...
Comments
Sorry, bad choice of words : "future customers", "potential customers", "people interested in the game" ?
Thank you for highlighting such an essential point in what I said.
... Eh... Wait... I should'nt write "said", but "wrote" !! You nearly got me again !!
oddly I agree with you, (rare that) Dispite the missinformation, Disinformation, and outright lies often spread here by the fans. I do feel everyone is responsible to be able to watch out for themselves at least this much. MMORPG.COM is not here to hold our hands and safegaurd us. If someones dumb enough to preorder DF basically sight unseen. then its on them. The interesting part being most of the Fans here aren't even willing to do so.
Interesting oxymoron there.
I agree entirely with this thread, MMORPG.com should attempt to protect its "customers", even if they're too stupid to protect themselves. I tend to hold to the idea that if you're an idiot, I deserve your money. But all this genre and industry needs is another failure...
-------------------------------
It's honestly like everyone logs onto WoW, and games like WoW, just to masturbate. Everyone plays by themselves, and when they don't, they get what they want and get off.
-------------------------------
Originally posted by atziluth...
Ah yes when the unreasonable are faced with reason they must resort to personal attacks...When you are ready to move up from the kids table you can talk with the grown ups.
I agree. If MMORPG are going to continue listing DF it is time they/we were shown proof of its current state. They can't continue to hide the game away and have people take them seriously. It seems to me that the game is not fit to play and yet they're talking of pre-ordering. Unfortunately some of the fanboys are just gullible enough to fall for it.
Was that "best efforts" where Tasos a month ago hyped that Darkfall was feature complete and more bug free then most MMO's 3 months after launch?
hehe ok i might be being alittle nit-picky there.
But just out of curiousity do you think Tasos will slow down now on what possibly might be called his Boastfullness?
Sorry but people do have to learn from their mistakes sooner or later. One can not go through life thinking everyones gonna protect them. Sometimes we have to learn the Hardway. As much as i'd like MMORPG.COM to ask hardball question and take off the knit gloves. I do not view it as their job to try and protect everyone that logs in here to read a artical.
A LOT of potential customers here.
MMORPG.com could de-list this game (?) and lock the forum. Bye-bye free advertising.
If I was a Dev, that would hold sway with me.
That is probably just what Aventurine WANTS.. did you read the latest news?
This rather epic quote is from that said news "Hype surrounding Darkfall is huge right now, despite our best efforts" link
I did.
So, Averturine wants less attention? MMORPG.com de-listing would help? Then do it.
MMORPG.com then comes up looking good whatever the outcome.
If it is a massive fraud - MMORPG.com can say "Well, we stopped listing it when we smelled trouble."
If it is genuine - MMORPG.com can re list later (post release) and say "We de-listed based on Developer request. We will re-list now.
But why would any Developer of a Pay to Play game NOT want hype?
That in itself should have people saying "WTF?"
That is just bad business sense.
And, in the days of the internet, how can a company (and an IT Company at that!) not realize that a new game will get worldwide attention?
It seems to me they are now trying to hide?
WHY?
Edit: FWIW I don't care what the Dev wants anyway - I just hate seeing people get ripped off.
Nothing says irony like spelling ideot wrong.
Sorry, bad choice of words : "future customers", "potential customers", "people interested in the game" ?
Thank you for highlighting such an essential point in what I said.
... Eh... Wait... I should'nt write "said", but "wrote" !! You nearly got me again !!
You do know they wrote that people who pre-ordered DarkFall would get precedance over those that didn't, and that even some of those might not get into the "free trial". Meaning in effect that those that did not pre-order the game would not get a chance at the "free trial" So its not really future customers since they have to already buy the game to get into the "free trial".
BestSigEver :P
I would say it is unethical to threaten the devs with reprisals if they do not meet their demands. It would better for you to just ask them to remove the forum.
If they started behaving like that it would not surprise me if this site ended up on media blacklist with all developers.
You can call it threaten, but in fact it is not threatening them at all. Having proof that the game is coming out shows that mmorpg.com can be a trusted website.
By having MMO's that do not come out or are scams it makes mmorpg.com its self look bad. So its a way for mmorpg.com to be safe and not get a bad rep, and allow the community of mmorpg.com to trust mmorpg.com.
If I was the owner of this website I would be extremely skeptical of this game, especialy after the resent delay. They make so many claims and yet they delay it. They claim its jam packed and more complete than most MMO's on the market today.
Those are huge claims. I personaly feel for this website mmorpg.com that they need to make sure that they are not advertising a game that may or may not be a scam. They should watch their own back and ask for real 100% proof in the form of playing the game so they do not look bad.
Look at it this way. If someone came to you or a company with say this amazing new product to help repair arthritus not stop the pian but repair. But had no real evidence. Now thats a huge huge claim. Big! Now lets just say they just spew out alot of random info about it yet have no real testing to show if it really works. They have maybe 10 to 15 people claim it works yet you don't have their medical history, or know if they are paid off. The company refuses to show off their statistics and number of testers and do not allow you to come into contact with these 10 to 15 people that have video claims or working. Would you invest your money into it?
whats MMORPG.COMS Stance on this ...? is anyone going to respond to what is being suggested?
It's all Lies...
Yes I do want them to pressure for a look. Its not unethical either.
mmorpg.com is a website that caters to the MMO fans. It represents MMO's that have launched and will launch. They owe it to us to properly list legitimate games that arent just a scam to steal money from us. It reflects badly on the industry but mmorpg.com as well.
mmorpg.com lists Darkfall as an MMO soon to launch. The least they can (especially considering all of the ripoffs lately) is to ask for proof the game exists and works as promised.
Its not unreasonable or unethical to ask for a beta key to review the game. And since Adventurine has offered little proof the game actually exists why should mmorpg.com continue to help promote a possible fraud ? Listing them here legitimizes them.
Dark and Light, I hate to bring them up again but they had released far more info than Tasos has. They had videos, tons of screenshots, but like Darkfall they were missing a legit review. We know why they didnt allow a review today dont we.
McQuaid was just like Tasos with Vanguard. He took on a semi-god status with the fanbois. Whatever he said was considered the holy scripture and couldnt possibly be false. He was attacked and criticised by many but the fanbois defended him with vicious ferver. The critics just wanted proof the game was as advertised but were attacked by McQuad's defenders. McQuaid was a total fraud. He made his cash and then sold the game to the devil (SOE) which was ironic considering the game was marketed to the fanbois as the anti-SOE true sequel to EQ.
Since history hasnt been kind, we should ignore that and allow another developer to rob us ? Its a simple request, show us the goods.
God that is so f***ing true.....
Sorry, bad choice of words : "future customers", "potential customers", "people interested in the game" ?
Thank you for highlighting such an essential point in what I said.
... Eh... Wait... I should'nt write "said", but "wrote" !! You nearly got me again !!
You do know they wrote that people who pre-ordered DarkFall would get precedance over those that didn't, and that even some of those might not get into the "free trial". Meaning in effect that those that did not pre-order the game would not get a chance at the "free trial" So its not really future customers since they have to already buy the game to get into the "free trial".
This is just plain wrong!
Pre orders will begin in mid FEBRUARY
Trial will begin 22nd JANUARY
Are they going to use a crystal ball?????
*****************************
I have nothing clever to say.
No because some of us WILL be playing without Paying on the 22nd of January, so there is no need.
*****************************
I have nothing clever to say.
A better example is the Perpetual Motion machine.
There are Patents, designs,drawings and if you Google it - even Video (more than for Darkfall!)
Yet no-one can actually make one that works. Not really.
Nothing says irony like spelling ideot wrong.
Seriously,
The gamers itself should be more then wise enough when it comes to their own money and creditcard!
I wouldn't mind if MMORPG.com would do some real journalism here and start a thorough investigation on Tasos, Aventurine, their partners and their game.
But in the end, it's YOUR money and YOUR creditcard!
If NO ONE pre-orders, then they are forced to go a different route, come back from it and do a free trial, like they promised before.
If their game is REALLY ready, then they won't need Pre-Orders and almost everyone that is going to try the trial will buy the game. They wouldn't need to worry.
But appearently they are worried and suddenly come up with a Pre-Order program. Alarm bell anyone? DeJaVu anyone?
So if you as gamer are so BLIND and IGNORE all the signals and alarm bells there are... and still going to Pre-Order the game, then sorry... again... you then deserve to be scammed!
Cheers
except the ype for the game is bigger than what they though so they have to do pre orders to judge servers they will need even tho i dont think they can handle abig launch like i said before
What type of deja vu do you mean? The type seen in 95% of MMO projects? Then, yes.
Just because 2-3 games grabbed the money and run...doesn't mean all games will do that
ilol you odnt understand at all it is mroe polsihed its just they want ot actulyl test right instead of thinking everythign will be ok like AOC did with there high end content
What type of deja vu do you mean? The type seen in 95% of MMO projects? Then, yes.
Just because 2-3 games grabbed the money and run...doesn't mean all games will do that
Dude, seriously, go pre-order! Go give them all your Credit card details already! I don't care.
They don't have to grab and run. Dark and Light didn't do it either.
People could actually log in and play for more then a year! Longer then Tabula Rasa lol.
That the Dark and Light game world was basically empty and 95% of the promissed features were either not present or just horribly bugged is a different thing.
So you see.... there are many more ways to scam people.
Cheers
seems like a scam - I will wait on the sidelines with cautious optimism.
good luck, preorderers.
As for mmorpg.com - well, they don't really HAVE to go out of their way to get us details... but I think it'd be better for everyone if we had some decent proof that this game exists, and is decent.
I am playing EVE and it's alright... level V skills are a bit much.
You all need to learn to spell.
WoW now who do you think caused all that hype? I wonder...
The results were awesome!! There was another game we never played, will never get to play, and it was amazing. The trolls won!!! It never came out!!! Sweet! Now let's go back to the awesome MMORPG's that are out right now and celebrate our victory!! Oh shit...