You have to take into account that ofcourse that which I write is my own opinion. Nothing I write is "the truth". I am joined by many in the belief that you can't catch up in Eve. That which was said in another thread about this matter was quite accurate of what I think. Only thing I'd like to add to that is that I consider the opportunity to switch builds is an edge: If you are a new player, veteran players have the option to change to your counter-build.
And this single statement is being dishonest on your part from where I stand. It has been proven countless times that a player can "catch" up vertically in almost every single ship or activity. Within about a year or so you can train up every skill you'll ever need to refine and mine in EVE and no one regardless of time in game will be able to exceed you.
Same with PVP, I've been focused on small (Mauraders and below) ship combat for the past 2.75 years and I have great skills in at least 25 or more ships and have no fear that I'm the perfect equal of any veteran in at least 10 or them.
Doesn't mean they can't fly 40 ships, and maybe 25 to perfection, but that doesn't matter, they end just as dead to my Vagabond if I manage to make sure they are fighting on my terms. Doesn't matter if they have 100M SP's, I'm gonna own them.
I maintain that few pilots can actually fly more than a handful of ships very well, each has its own quirks that takes a lot of practice to get good in, so just because I am decent in a Vagabond doesn't meant I'd do well in an Energy Neut boat. (though I have the skills to do both)
Here's a good example, I have the skills to fly a Heavy Interdictor well. Unfortunately, I've never flown one in combat ever, so I'd be destroyed by anyone who knew the ships capabilities and limitations. My knowing how to fly 10 more ships then them will have nothing to do with the final outcome.
See, many of your "negative" comments are simply a matter of perception, and while its fine that you have them, know that the game actually is played by many and enjoyed, even for some of the very things you try to slam.
Is EVE perfect? Hardly. Tons of room for improvement all over the place. Is EVE one of the best gaming experiences available today despite its flaws?
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
You know I wouldnt have pegged you as a hater if you weren't so negative. you seem to have massive issues with the game. And you bring your negativity to this forum over and over.
You bring up no valid points yet constantly bash and call people fanboys.
You start talking game mechanics and maybe you will be better received.
I'm no "hater" - I play the freakin' game right now! My negativity is to balance the over-positive. All this hippie business and sugar-coating is misleading new players like I was misled. Maybe I am drawn more to the negative specifically because of these overly positive posts that I find irritating. When I say something is bad, then what I'm really saying is that some other game does this better or it has a lot of room to improve.
What makes my points invalid? What makes your opinions right and my opinions wrong? To me, everyones opinion is right and justified and everyones points are valid. You can't just choose what you agree with or what you like. It is player feedback.
Like I said post something worth discussing instead of straight up bashing. You never focus on one thing how could anyone take what you post seriously?
Now you say your only posting negativity for balance on the forums? That doesn't sound crazy to you?
Basically saying your trolling to balance what you believe to be blind fanboism.
I am not a troll either. You like to throw labels at people, don't you? Quick to judge. How is pointing out the weaknesses of Eve bashing? What is bashing? How am I bashing? Why haven't you answered to any of my questions?
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
You know I wouldnt have pegged you as a hater if you weren't so negative. you seem to have massive issues with the game. And you bring your negativity to this forum over and over.
You bring up no valid points yet constantly bash and call people fanboys.
You start talking game mechanics and maybe you will be better received.
I'm no "hater" - I play the freakin' game right now! My negativity is to balance the over-positive. All this hippie business and sugar-coating is misleading new players like I was misled. Maybe I am drawn more to the negative specifically because of these overly positive posts that I find irritating. When I say something is bad, then what I'm really saying is that some other game does this better or it has a lot of room to improve.
What makes my points invalid? What makes your opinions right and my opinions wrong? To me, everyones opinion is right and justified and everyones points are valid. You can't just choose what you agree with or what you like. It is player feedback.
Like I said post something worth discussing instead of straight up bashing. You never focus on one thing how could anyone take what you post seriously?
Now you say your only posting negativity for balance on the forums? That doesn't sound crazy to you?
Basically saying your trolling to balance what you believe to be blind fanboism.
I am not a troll either. You like to throw labels at people, don't you? Quick to judge. How is pointing out the weaknesses of Eve bashing? What is bashing? How am I bashing? Why haven't you answered to any of my questions?
What questions? You havent brought up any mechanics/features to discuss! You have general complaints of the game as a whole without bringing up a specific feature in game (sign of a player who doesn't play the game).
Then you say you post negatives for no other reason other than countering positives because you believe people are swaying people with misinformation?
What misinformation? You bring no points to the table!!!
You have to take into account that ofcourse that which I write is my own opinion. Nothing I write is "the truth". I am joined by many in the belief that you can't catch up in Eve. That which was said in another thread about this matter was quite accurate of what I think. Only thing I'd like to add to that is that I consider the opportunity to switch builds is an edge: If you are a new player, veteran players have the option to change to your counter-build.
And this single statement is being dishonest on your part from where I stand. It has been proven countless times that a player can "catch" up vertically in almost every single ship or activity. Within about a year or so you can train up every skill you'll ever need to refine and mine in EVE and no one regardless of time in game will be able to exceed you.
Same with PVP, I've been focused on small (Mauraders and below) ship combat for the past 2.75 years and I have great skills in at least 25 or more ships and have no fear that I'm the perfect equal of any veteran in at least 10 or them.
Doesn't mean they can't fly 40 ships, and maybe 25 to perfection, but that doesn't matter, they end just as dead to my Vagabond if I manage to make sure they are fighting on my terms. Doesn't matter if they have 100M SP's, I'm gonna own them.
I maintain that few pilots can actually fly more than a handful of ships very well, each has its own quirks that takes a lot of practice to get good in, so just because I am decent in a Vagabond doesn't meant I'd do well in an Energy Neut boat. (though I have the skills to do both)
Here's a good example, I have the skills to fly a Heavy Interdictor well. Unfortunately, I've never flown one in combat ever, so I'd be destroyed by anyone who knew the ships capabilities and limitations. My knowing how to fly 10 more ships then them will have nothing to do with the final outcome.
See, many of your "negative" comments are simply a matter of perception, and while its fine that you have them, know that the game actually is played by many and enjoyed, even for some of the very things you try to slam.
Is EVE perfect? Hardly. Tons of room for improvement all over the place. Is EVE one of the best gaming experiences available today despite its flaws?
In my opinion, absolutely.
In the thread Squal'Zell said: "this has been said alot. yes you can catch up in your speciality, no you cant catch up in your diversity." And I agree with that. What I don't believe is that you should be excluding capital ships and marauders just to make your point valid. I count all the ships.
I am not being dishonest about that "I am joined by many in the belief that you can't catch up in Eve". You imply that I am lying. There actually is many - that is more than one - people who think you can't catch up in Eve. How is this false?
You are entitled to your opinion but it is no more "right" than mine is.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
You have to take into account that ofcourse that which I write is my own opinion. Nothing I write is "the truth". I am joined by many in the belief that you can't catch up in Eve. That which was said in another thread about this matter was quite accurate of what I think. Only thing I'd like to add to that is that I consider the opportunity to switch builds is an edge: If you are a new player, veteran players have the option to change to your counter-build.
And this single statement is being dishonest on your part from where I stand. It has been proven countless times that a player can "catch" up vertically in almost every single ship or activity. Within about a year or so you can train up every skill you'll ever need to refine and mine in EVE and no one regardless of time in game will be able to exceed you.
Same with PVP, I've been focused on small (Mauraders and below) ship combat for the past 2.75 years and I have great skills in at least 25 or more ships and have no fear that I'm the perfect equal of any veteran in at least 10 or them.
Doesn't mean they can't fly 40 ships, and maybe 25 to perfection, but that doesn't matter, they end just as dead to my Vagabond if I manage to make sure they are fighting on my terms. Doesn't matter if they have 100M SP's, I'm gonna own them.
I maintain that few pilots can actually fly more than a handful of ships very well, each has its own quirks that takes a lot of practice to get good in, so just because I am decent in a Vagabond doesn't meant I'd do well in an Energy Neut boat. (though I have the skills to do both)
Here's a good example, I have the skills to fly a Heavy Interdictor well. Unfortunately, I've never flown one in combat ever, so I'd be destroyed by anyone who knew the ships capabilities and limitations. My knowing how to fly 10 more ships then them will have nothing to do with the final outcome.
See, many of your "negative" comments are simply a matter of perception, and while its fine that you have them, know that the game actually is played by many and enjoyed, even for some of the very things you try to slam.
Is EVE perfect? Hardly. Tons of room for improvement all over the place. Is EVE one of the best gaming experiences available today despite its flaws?
In my opinion, absolutely.
In the thread Squal'Zell said: "this has been said alot. yes you can catch up in your speciality, no you cant catch up in your diversity." And I agree with that. What I don't believe is that you should be excluding capital ships and marauders just to make your point valid. I count all the ships.
I am not being dishonest about that "I am joined by many in the belief that you can't catch up in Eve". You imply that I am lying. There actually is many - that is more than one - people who think you can't catch up in Eve. How is this false?
You are entitled to your opinion but it is no more "right" than mine is.
Not one person has said you could catch a vet in the amount of ships they use. Where did you read that? and why did you gloss over the hundreds of people saying different before you started playing Eve?
Your pissed because a vet can fly more ships? Really? why? You can catch up in a specific ship or even multiple ships (including Caps) so what's the issue?
You have to take into account that ofcourse that which I write is my own opinion. Nothing I write is "the truth". I am joined by many in the belief that you can't catch up in Eve. That which was said in another thread about this matter was quite accurate of what I think. Only thing I'd like to add to that is that I consider the opportunity to switch builds is an edge: If you are a new player, veteran players have the option to change to your counter-build.
And this single statement is being dishonest on your part from where I stand. It has been proven countless times that a player can "catch" up vertically in almost every single ship or activity. Within about a year or so you can train up every skill you'll ever need to refine and mine in EVE and no one regardless of time in game will be able to exceed you.
Same with PVP, I've been focused on small (Mauraders and below) ship combat for the past 2.75 years and I have great skills in at least 25 or more ships and have no fear that I'm the perfect equal of any veteran in at least 10 or them.
Doesn't mean they can't fly 40 ships, and maybe 25 to perfection, but that doesn't matter, they end just as dead to my Vagabond if I manage to make sure they are fighting on my terms. Doesn't matter if they have 100M SP's, I'm gonna own them.
I maintain that few pilots can actually fly more than a handful of ships very well, each has its own quirks that takes a lot of practice to get good in, so just because I am decent in a Vagabond doesn't meant I'd do well in an Energy Neut boat. (though I have the skills to do both)
Here's a good example, I have the skills to fly a Heavy Interdictor well. Unfortunately, I've never flown one in combat ever, so I'd be destroyed by anyone who knew the ships capabilities and limitations. My knowing how to fly 10 more ships then them will have nothing to do with the final outcome.
See, many of your "negative" comments are simply a matter of perception, and while its fine that you have them, know that the game actually is played by many and enjoyed, even for some of the very things you try to slam.
Is EVE perfect? Hardly. Tons of room for improvement all over the place. Is EVE one of the best gaming experiences available today despite its flaws?
In my opinion, absolutely.
In the thread Squal'Zell said: "this has been said alot. yes you can catch up in your speciality, no you cant catch up in your diversity." And I agree with that. What I don't believe is that you should be excluding capital ships and marauders just to make your point valid. I count all the ships.
I am not being dishonest about that "I am joined by many in the belief that you can't catch up in Eve". You imply that I am lying. There actually is many - that is more than one - people who think you can't catch up in Eve. How is this false?
You are entitled to your opinion but it is no more "right" than mine is.
Not one person has said you could catch a vet in the amount of ships they use. Where did you read that? and why did you gloss over the hundreds of people saying different before you started playing Eve?
Your pissed because a vet can fly more ships? Really? why? You can catch up in a specific ship or even multiple ships (including Caps) so what's the issue?
i think the point that the 'complainer' is missing is that regardless of the 'ingame' skill levels, the thing thats often the determining factor in a fight is actual skills, or more precise, the ability to use the in game skills intelligently, you don't need to be 'uber' but you do need to be smart... and tactical awareness in this game is a skill worth developing. One of the reason why good FC's are so hard to find.
User interface is bad and some of the feedback is outright misleading (missile explosions even when the missile doesn't hit you, explosions on your ship even when no-one is shooting at you, target calling in the overview is bugged and after few calls the overview window is a mess, cooldown graphic while using modules is out of sync half the time etc. To name a few). You've come in terms with these flaws so they don't bother you. Some things can be done simply better. I might post a list of suggestions for improvements in the control scheme and gameplay in the near future. But I will not list them here.
If you want to discuss the game's issues, here is one.
Why do I think the user interface is bad? Because the games feedback to the player is not sufficiently displayed or, in that example, misleading. All de-sync is misinformation. Sufficiently displayed means that when I am being warp disrupted, there's more than just a small picture in the overview or a small text that I have to read in the midst of battle. The optimal, a better, solution would be a clear icon in some place that was reserved for the states of your ship. Same place would display effects like damping, target painting etc.
Everything you read from the log, you take for granted, but icons and pictures are far quicker and easier way to tranfer that information to the player. When every state of you ship is displayed in the same place, the player knows to look for it.
As for the controls: For changing ammo or script, I have to 1. stop firing 2. change ammo 3.. start firing again. A more user friendly example would be to change ammo or lenses or script on the fly. There would be the loading time for ammo ofcourse but the weapon would just continue firing with different ammo after loading the new ones. Three tasks into just one: Change ammo.
Why isn't the chat window behind a key, like in other games. Press "T" or "Enter" to enter the chat window. When you do it like this, you free up many keys to use as shortcuts. Pressing single-button-shortcuts is far easier and simpler than using combination keys.
Also, one feature of Guild Wars came to mind that I miss in almost every game nowadays. Simple target calling. One player would broadcast a target with the text appearing: "I'm attacking target X, press "T" to my target." Rest of the players would then press "T" and they would have the same target. For Eve this might mean that the target in question would be made active or in the very least start to lock it. It would make a lot of this overview juggling, and "NEW PRIMARY" behind. Very simple yet very efficient system.
There has been research done that pie menus as opposed to drop down menus are in some cases quicker and more efficient. CCP should look to that research although when the amount of choices in both menus gets big (10+) even the pie menu becomes inefficient. Worth to look into, still.
I was planning to gather more suggestions and post them in some other thread but because you pressed the matter, here it is.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
You have to take into account that ofcourse that which I write is my own opinion. Nothing I write is "the truth". I am joined by many in the belief that you can't catch up in Eve. That which was said in another thread about this matter was quite accurate of what I think. Only thing I'd like to add to that is that I consider the opportunity to switch builds is an edge: If you are a new player, veteran players have the option to change to your counter-build.
And this single statement is being dishonest on your part from where I stand. It has been proven countless times that a player can "catch" up vertically in almost every single ship or activity. Within about a year or so you can train up every skill you'll ever need to refine and mine in EVE and no one regardless of time in game will be able to exceed you.
Same with PVP, I've been focused on small (Mauraders and below) ship combat for the past 2.75 years and I have great skills in at least 25 or more ships and have no fear that I'm the perfect equal of any veteran in at least 10 or them.
Doesn't mean they can't fly 40 ships, and maybe 25 to perfection, but that doesn't matter, they end just as dead to my Vagabond if I manage to make sure they are fighting on my terms. Doesn't matter if they have 100M SP's, I'm gonna own them.
I maintain that few pilots can actually fly more than a handful of ships very well, each has its own quirks that takes a lot of practice to get good in, so just because I am decent in a Vagabond doesn't meant I'd do well in an Energy Neut boat. (though I have the skills to do both)
Here's a good example, I have the skills to fly a Heavy Interdictor well. Unfortunately, I've never flown one in combat ever, so I'd be destroyed by anyone who knew the ships capabilities and limitations. My knowing how to fly 10 more ships then them will have nothing to do with the final outcome.
See, many of your "negative" comments are simply a matter of perception, and while its fine that you have them, know that the game actually is played by many and enjoyed, even for some of the very things you try to slam.
Is EVE perfect? Hardly. Tons of room for improvement all over the place. Is EVE one of the best gaming experiences available today despite its flaws?
In my opinion, absolutely.
In the thread Squal'Zell said: "this has been said alot. yes you can catch up in your speciality, no you cant catch up in your diversity." And I agree with that. What I don't believe is that you should be excluding capital ships and marauders just to make your point valid. I count all the ships.
I am not being dishonest about that "I am joined by many in the belief that you can't catch up in Eve". You imply that I am lying. There actually is many - that is more than one - people who think you can't catch up in Eve. How is this false?
You are entitled to your opinion but it is no more "right" than mine is.
Not one person has said you could catch a vet in the amount of ships they use. Where did you read that? and why did you gloss over the hundreds of people saying different before you started playing Eve?
Your pissed because a vet can fly more ships? Really? why? You can catch up in a specific ship or even multiple ships (including Caps) so what's the issue?
Not one person in this discussion that is. But several in real-life and while playing the game. I have no quarrel with anyone. I just dislike the fact that someone can be "better" by playing more (EDIT: Playing more as in having an older character. Not necessarily the actual playtime) - because that is what it is: Time in Eve is money spent. Somebody payed more to be "better".
I thought already explained this. Vet's ability to change into your counter-build is an edge. That is something I cannot catch up.
I know plenty of Eve players who have "payed" more from this game, and still know less than I know. It is not about player experience. And player experience is not directly proportional to the SP of your character, especially in Eve. I'm sure I don't have to explain this.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
You have to take into account that ofcourse that which I write is my own opinion. Nothing I write is "the truth". I am joined by many in the belief that you can't catch up in Eve. That which was said in another thread about this matter was quite accurate of what I think. Only thing I'd like to add to that is that I consider the opportunity to switch builds is an edge: If you are a new player, veteran players have the option to change to your counter-build.
And this single statement is being dishonest on your part from where I stand. It has been proven countless times that a player can "catch" up vertically in almost every single ship or activity. Within about a year or so you can train up every skill you'll ever need to refine and mine in EVE and no one regardless of time in game will be able to exceed you.
Same with PVP, I've been focused on small (Mauraders and below) ship combat for the past 2.75 years and I have great skills in at least 25 or more ships and have no fear that I'm the perfect equal of any veteran in at least 10 or them.
Doesn't mean they can't fly 40 ships, and maybe 25 to perfection, but that doesn't matter, they end just as dead to my Vagabond if I manage to make sure they are fighting on my terms. Doesn't matter if they have 100M SP's, I'm gonna own them.
I maintain that few pilots can actually fly more than a handful of ships very well, each has its own quirks that takes a lot of practice to get good in, so just because I am decent in a Vagabond doesn't meant I'd do well in an Energy Neut boat. (though I have the skills to do both)
Here's a good example, I have the skills to fly a Heavy Interdictor well. Unfortunately, I've never flown one in combat ever, so I'd be destroyed by anyone who knew the ships capabilities and limitations. My knowing how to fly 10 more ships then them will have nothing to do with the final outcome.
See, many of your "negative" comments are simply a matter of perception, and while its fine that you have them, know that the game actually is played by many and enjoyed, even for some of the very things you try to slam.
Is EVE perfect? Hardly. Tons of room for improvement all over the place. Is EVE one of the best gaming experiences available today despite its flaws?
In my opinion, absolutely.
In the thread Squal'Zell said: "this has been said alot. yes you can catch up in your speciality, no you cant catch up in your diversity." And I agree with that. What I don't believe is that you should be excluding capital ships and marauders just to make your point valid. I count all the ships.
I am not being dishonest about that "I am joined by many in the belief that you can't catch up in Eve". You imply that I am lying. There actually is many - that is more than one - people who think you can't catch up in Eve. How is this false?
You are entitled to your opinion but it is no more "right" than mine is.
Not one person has said you could catch a vet in the amount of ships they use. Where did you read that? and why did you gloss over the hundreds of people saying different before you started playing Eve?
Your pissed because a vet can fly more ships? Really? why? You can catch up in a specific ship or even multiple ships (including Caps) so what's the issue?
Not one person in this discussion that is. But several in real-life and while playing the game. I have no quarrel with anyone. I just dislike the fact that someone can be "better" by playing more (EDIT: Playing more as in having an older character. Not necessarily the actual playtime) - because that is what it is: Time in Eve is money spent. Somebody payed more to be "better".
I thought already explained this. Vet's ability to change into your counter-build is an edge. That is something I cannot catch up.
I know plenty of Eve players who have "payed" more from this game, and still know less than I know. It is not about player experience. And player experience is not directly proportional to the SP of your character, especially in Eve. I'm sure I don't have to explain this.
WHY SHOULD YOU BE EQUAL or BETTER THAN A PLAYER THATS INVESTED YEARS MORE THAN YOU!?!?!?!?!?!
Is it not enough to just practice and be better through experience? Not enough to catch the poor sod in specific roles?
when I was around a year old in Eve i flew a AF, Cruiser, BC and HAC all reasonably well. What ship could he switch to or what I should be asking is how stupid would I be to give him a chance to comeback at me with a new ship?
Anyway what does this matter? I fly around with nothing short of a small armada anyway.
Obviously the chat system could use some love and we all have made suggestions to the overview. I think the ammo switching is fine however.
I guess the best way to explain my view is to provide you with an example:
Player A has spent time in game for 5 years. Player B has played the game for 5 months. Player A has played only PvE and crafted a lot. Player B has played high quality PvP only .
When these to players meet in a battle the player B should win. Time spent ingame should not matter. Only the player skill. And in case of Eve, SP does not equal player skill. Player(s) with more skill should win. I guess we both agree on that.
The fact still remains. You basically admitted that I'm right: I can't catch up. You also stated it doesn't matter.
This brings me to my point: The argument "You can't catch up" is true, but it has very little real effect on the game. I don't know why you got so worked up about it. It is pedantic, I admit, but the statement is valid. I'm sure I wrote this in some other post in some other thread aswell.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
I guess the best way to explain my view is to provide you with an example: Player A has spent time in game for 5 years. Player B has played the game for 5 months. Player A has played only PvE and crafted a lot. Player B has played high quality PvP only . When these to players meet in a battle the player B should win. Time spent ingame should not matter. Only the player skill. And in case of Eve, SP does not equal player skill. Player(s) with more skill should win. I guess we both agree on that.
The fact still remains. You basically admitted that I'm right: I can't catch up. You also stated it doesn't matter. This brings me to my point: The argument "You can't catch up" is true, but it has very little real effect on the game. I don't know why you got so worked up about it. It is pedantic, I admit, but the statement is valid. I'm sure I wrote this in some other post in some other thread aswell.
Oh Yea....More narcissistic blather. Personally, the only thing I admit is your a troll with a very limited understanding of the game.
I guess the best way to explain my view is to provide you with an example: Player A has spent time in game for 5 years. Player B has played the game for 5 months. Player A has played only PvE and crafted a lot. Player B has played high quality PvP only . When these to players meet in a battle the player B should win. Time spent ingame should not matter. Only the player skill. And in case of Eve, SP does not equal player skill. Player(s) with more skill should win. I guess we both agree on that.
The fact still remains. You basically admitted that I'm right: I can't catch up. You also stated it doesn't matter. This brings me to my point: The argument "You can't catch up" is true, but it has very little real effect on the game. I don't know why you got so worked up about it. It is pedantic, I admit, but the statement is valid. I'm sure I wrote this in some other post in some other thread aswell.
Your example is confusing to me.
I assure you, if Player A has only done PVE and crafted for 5 years, regardless of his trained skills, Player B (the experienced PVPer) could quite easily destroy player A depending on what ships they happened to be flying when the encounter occurred.
Even if they met in a heads up one on one fight (a rare thing in EVE) in identical ships types (an even more rare thing) it is most likely the experienced PVPer will win the encounter. I'll go so far to say the 5 year vet can be flying a Tech 2 fitted version of the same ship and still the edge goes to the PVP'er because he will know exactly how to fight his one ship.
I am the classic example of player A. I'm now in a PVP training corp because despite all my trained skills and ships, I suck at PVP. I don't properly know how to fight with guns, keeping my range properly set, watching my tranversals, knowing how to best counter my enemies fit (never let you Vaga get near a webber, or you're a dead man)
I venture to say 75% or more of the newer players in the game (1 year or less) who have done nothing but pvp in red vs blue could probably wreck me.
And remember, in EVE you never should fight alone. If you are a new player, and don't have the skills to win one on one, you bring two on one. That's what I do. EVE's not about fair fights, its about winning big, and I don't care how I win, just so that I'm alive and the other guy is in his pod.
But I will agree, you can never catch up with a veteran player horizontally, but I will put forth there really is no need to.
You mentioned I've avoided Caps and Super caps, not because I had to, but because I hate their role in the game. It isn't a form of combat I enjoy (large fleet engagements) I prefer smaller roaming gangs so I focused my training on being able to fly every single small ship in the game. (that way CCP can never nerf me)
Right now I'm training up my 3rd set of Tech 2 guns, Rails, (already have great Lasers and Projectiles) and later this year I'll be able to fit any Tech 2 gun short of the captials. Then hell, I guess I'll round out my missile and drone skills to complete the set.
Rght now I'm not sure we're disagreeing or in violent agreement, can't tell anymore.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
If I play RvB, my PVP will be exactly like that - cheap and accesible.
OK, my question still remains. What is your point?
My point is that AT or RvB PvP represents 1% of Eve's PvP. It is closest to competitive PvP Eve can get, but it is not a competitive PvP game and if you advertise it as such, people will get disappointed. Most of Eve's PvP is far from RvB or AT.
Now, I know you can say that you can play just to way you like it. Stick to RvB and it will remain cheap and accessible, but for competitive PvP games, there are better games for it. Games that have specialized just in that one thing.
An example:
LotRO and DDO have PvP. They are not very good (the PvP in them). You can play those games and play the PvP only, which makes them PvP games for you, but that doesn't make them a PvP games for the rest. Majority would still agree that there are far better games for PvP than LotRO and DDO. If you would be advertising your belief that DDO and LotRO are PvP games, you'd be misleading people.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
I guess the best way to explain my view is to provide you with an example: Player A has spent time in game for 5 years. Player B has played the game for 5 months. Player A has played only PvE and crafted a lot. Player B has played high quality PvP only . When these to players meet in a battle the player B should win. Time spent ingame should not matter. Only the player skill. And in case of Eve, SP does not equal player skill. Player(s) with more skill should win. I guess we both agree on that.
The fact still remains. You basically admitted that I'm right: I can't catch up. You also stated it doesn't matter. This brings me to my point: The argument "You can't catch up" is true, but it has very little real effect on the game. I don't know why you got so worked up about it. It is pedantic, I admit, but the statement is valid. I'm sure I wrote this in some other post in some other thread aswell.
Your example is confusing to me.
I assure you, if Player A has only done PVE and crafted for 5 years, regardless of his trained skills, Player B (the experienced PVPer) could quite easily destroy player A depending on what ships they happened to be flying when the encounter occurred.
Even if they met in a heads up one on one fight (a rare thing in EVE) in identical ships types (an even more rare thing) it is most likely the experienced PVPer will win the encounter. I'll go so far to say the 5 year vet can be flying a Tech 2 fitted version of the same ship and still the edge goes to the PVP'er because he will know exactly how to fight his one ship.
I am the classic example of player A. I'm now in a PVP training corp because despite all my trained skills and ships, I suck at PVP. I don't properly know how to fight with guns, keeping my range properly set, watching my tranversals, knowing how to best counter my enemies fit (never let you Vaga get near a webber, or you're a dead man)
I venture to say 75% or more of the newer players in the game (1 year or less) who have done nothing but pvp in red vs blue could probably wreck me.
And remember, in EVE you never should fight alone. If you are a new player, and don't have the skills to win one on one, you bring two on one. That's what I do. EVE's not about fair fights, its about winning big, and I don't care how I win, just so that I'm alive and the other guy is in his pod.
But I will agree, you can never catch up with a veteran player horizontally, but I will put forth there really is no need to.
You mentioned I've avoided Caps and Super caps, not because I had to, but because I hate their role in the game. It isn't a form of combat I enjoy (large fleet engagements) I prefer smaller roaming gangs so I focused my training on being able to fly every single small ship in the game. (that way CCP can never nerf me)
Right now I'm training up my 3rd set of Tech 2 guns, Rails, (already have great Lasers and Projectiles) and later this year I'll be able to fit any Tech 2 gun short of the captials. Then hell, I guess I'll round out my missile and drone skills to complete the set.
Rght now I'm not sure we're disagreeing or in violent agreement, can't tell anymore.
I think we're agreeing more than disagreeing. I just don't like the fact that someone gets a non-player-skill edge over me. That T2 ship is a non-skill edge over a younger character. And let's face it, if you know how to use it, T2 ships are far better than their T1 counterparts. Sure a veteran will beat some newb flying a T2 ship but when their player skill is more closely matched, the T2 ship is a non-skill edge.
This extends to the fact that the veteran player who can choose from multiple ships, as opposed to the few ships the rookie can fly, has an edge because he/she can choose the ship that is the very best to every situation.
The best player should always win. Not the one who has payed more for the game.
I just don't like the fact that someone gets a non-player-skill edge over me.
Ok this line confuses me, it sounds like you want a game where all characters are equal and theres no progression. I honestly can't think of an mmo that doesn't have this. I'm gonna assume you mean you dislike players having a advantage due to time instead of play amount here. If that is the case, then stop posting negative things people already know and if it bothers you that much stop playing eve.
Everyone knows eve has a time base progression, it's one of the first thing people learn about the game so you don't need to inform people about this. It's also something that is not up for debate or change, it is one of the core features of the game. Trying to argue against this would be like me going into wow forums complaining that it would a lot better if we just did away with the whole elves and orcs thing and changed it to a sci fi game with mutants and aliens.
In all games more skilled characters with better equipment will have an advantage, you really don't need to tell people this it isn't helpful. What is helpfull is telling people how to get around this, telling them things like; how big the gap is, how to specialize properly, how numbers are an advantage how you should use cheap equipment to increase your cost efficiency. Just repeating over and over again "characters with more skills are better" only serves to discourage people.
I just don't like the fact that someone gets a non-player-skill edge over me.
Ok this line confuses me, it sounds like you want a game where all characters are equal and theres no progression. I honestly can't think of an mmo that doesn't have this. I'm gonna assume you mean you dislike players having a advantage due to time instead of play amount here. If that is the case, then stop posting negative things people already know and if it bothers you that much stop playing eve.
Everyone knows eve has a time base progression, it's one of the first thing people learn about the game so you don't need to inform people about this. It's also something that is not up for debate or change, it is one of the core features of the game. Trying to argue against this would be like me going into wow forums complaining that it would a lot better if we just did away with the whole elves and orcs thing and changed it to a sci fi game with mutants and aliens.
In all games more skilled characters with better equipment will have an advantage, you really don't need to tell people this it isn't helpful. What is helpfull is telling people how to get around this, telling them things like; how big the gap is, how to specialize properly, how numbers are an advantage how you should use cheap equipment to increase your cost efficiency. Just repeating over and over again "characters with more skills are better" only serves to discourage people.
It’s the player that is aggressive and thinks fast with good situational awareness that usually wins. Time and skill points are completely secondary. To put this another way, so it is easier to understand, if you think allot of SP are going to save you from a good PVP’er you are going to lose allot of ships.
If you fly aggressive and know what your doing, you will see you’re objections melt away.
The thing you’re not seeing is all the options and opportunities that evolve in PVP (not to mention that your argument is based on a solo, not a gang, mentality), and it’s learning to quickly take advantage of good opportunities and escape bad one, that really separate the winners and losers in this game.
Just because you grinded for a stat for X hours does not mean you are better than another player, and this games respects that by making the environment with all it's complexities a key player.
For crying out loud, if you want to be equal or better than everyone else then you must start a game when it s launches.Not 7 years after the game launches, want that go play an FPS. As posted by Typhado MMOs have progression, if they didn't you would complain that players starting after you have exact same things you have, meh..........
Eve has skills that run from 1 to 5 and can be learnt relatively quickly that coupled with the fact that you can only fly one ship at a time makes Eve the easiest game to be on an equal footing with an older player in pvp, if you cannot get your head around that then Eve will be to hard for you anyway.
Bottom line is that if you don't like it as it is then there nothing anyone can do for you, Eve will continue and grow without you, bye bye.
Originally posted by Quirhid My point is that AT or RvB PvP represents 1% of Eve's PvP.
As you said yourself, I can stick to FW or RvB and do nothing else, then it will be 100% of my PVP time.
It is a valid and real option for any new or old player. Again, what is the point of this statement?
As for the rest, I have no idea what you talk about, how it is related to EVE nor what 'competitive' is supposed to mean.
You make some vague subjective assumptions probably making sense to you only.
To me, EVE is the best PVP MMO(RPG) on the market because it does not depend on character progression or items and have roles and options in PVP for everyone - old and new, poor and rich, no-lifers and causal gamers.
Originally posted by VultureSkull For crying out loud, if you want to be equal or better than everyone else then you must start a game when it s launches.
With respect I dont think this is entirley true.
I've been playing Eve for 3 years and there are many many players out there who started playing WAY after me who are far better than me. On the flip side there are people I've known who have been playing Eve longer, but guess what?.. they've stopped playing a long time ago... so i've caught up with them
Remember that Eve is a GROWING MMO, that means there are more and more new players signing up all the time... In fact I'd have to say there are probably way way more new players playing eve today than there are "veterans"
And even when you do get players who have been playing for 5 years.. they arnt interested in 'being better' than someone else they tend to be very relaxed people who rather just see their corp grow.
No. You're still stuck in the SP = levels = higher level always beats lower level mindset. I guess you're just not capable of conceiving a game that doesn't follow this linear progession. It doesn't matter to you that it has been demonstrated repeatedly that what you said isn't true - or at the very least is nowhere near the whole truth. No matter what we say, you just can't believe it.
SP are useful. Having more of them is good. But they're just another tool, like ISK, in game contacts, player skill, game knowledge, assets and luck. A suprlus in one can be used to compensate for lack in another. SP have no special staus over and above the others, not least because if you really want them, you can buy them.
Originally posted by VultureSkull For crying out loud, if you want to be equal or better than everyone else then you must start a game when it s launches.
With respect I dont think this is entirley true.
I've been playing Eve for 3 years and there are many many players out there who started playing WAY after me who are far better than me. On the flip side there are people I've known who have been playing Eve longer, but guess what?.. they've stopped playing a long time ago... so i've caught up with them
Remember that Eve is a GROWING MMO, that means there are more and more new players signing up all the time... In fact I'd have to say there are probably way way more new players playing eve today than there are "veterans"
And even when you do get players who have been playing for 5 years.. they arnt interested in 'being better' than someone else they tend to be very relaxed people who rather just see their corp grow.
Sorry you mis-understand me, if you believe that the only way you can be 'better than' or 'equal to' someone is to start at launch then start at launch or play an FPS. Ofc what you say is 100% correct but some peeps just dont see it like that.
EDIT:I would just like to add that i have been playing Eve since Sept 2003 and the game launched in July 2003 (if i am not mistaken). I ran my account for nealry 5 years non-stop and after that I play on and off until today.
I have more or less trained every non - capital combat skill there is, all ships, and modules i can use. I have various BS skills at level 5, Amarr, Caldari and Minmatar, as well as command ships and BC at level 5, i can fly every class of combat ship across multiple races. I can also fly two tech3 cruisers(amarr and Gallente), I actually struggle to find things to train that will assist me in combat. The usual progression for me would be to train Capital ships which i may do later .
~Point being you do run out of skills to train in combat. Even if i went in to Capitals, I would have easily trained carrier/super carrier and Dread, possibly even a titian by now. So tell me again that you cannot catchup.
Originally posted by VultureSkull Sorry you mis-understand me, if you believe that the only way you can be 'better than' or 'equal to' someone is to start at launch then start at launch or play an FPS. Ofc what you say is 100% correct but some peeps just dont see it like that.
Originally posted by Malcanis Originally posted by Quirhid $$ -> Gametime -> SP -> better ships <=> $$ -> better ships.
*sigh* No. You're still stuck in the SP = levels = higher level always beats lower level mindset. I guess you're just not capable of conceiving a game that doesn't follow this linear progession.
Yep, some people will always do the SP=levels=win math. They know that in WoW (or whatever linear progression game) a level 40 warrior has absolutely no chance vs a level 60 mage, so it must be that way in Eve too.
Truth is, in Eve, after you've played/trained a few months, victory or defeat depends on what ship are you aboard in a certain moment. A scissor-class ship and 5 months SP will still defeat a paper-class ship no matter how many skill-years the other player invested. On Eve, knowledge is power. On Eve, there is no "better ship". You will never have a "final ship", that can face every situation.
Little history on the guy in the link. Dr caymus is the most skilled character in eve with a total of 146,104,372 SP (at time of writing). and I've yet to hear of someone to have ever had confirmed more sp than him. However Dr caymus is extremely focused meaning his characters pvp skills are poor, it would be quite easy for a year old player that focused on pvp to have a better ship. Hell until the neural remap 1 year ago you could get more combat skills in about a week than he had.
However come to sciences and their are only a handful of characters in the game better at invention with over 53 mil points in science. Though if you really wanna get into invention (a very skill heavy part of the game) if you focus on 1 specific area a few months and you can perform the same as him, some more training and you'll have another area and so on.
Comments
You have to take into account that ofcourse that which I write is my own opinion. Nothing I write is "the truth". I am joined by many in the belief that you can't catch up in Eve. That which was said in another thread about this matter was quite accurate of what I think. Only thing I'd like to add to that is that I consider the opportunity to switch builds is an edge: If you are a new player, veteran players have the option to change to your counter-build.
And this single statement is being dishonest on your part from where I stand. It has been proven countless times that a player can "catch" up vertically in almost every single ship or activity. Within about a year or so you can train up every skill you'll ever need to refine and mine in EVE and no one regardless of time in game will be able to exceed you.
Same with PVP, I've been focused on small (Mauraders and below) ship combat for the past 2.75 years and I have great skills in at least 25 or more ships and have no fear that I'm the perfect equal of any veteran in at least 10 or them.
Doesn't mean they can't fly 40 ships, and maybe 25 to perfection, but that doesn't matter, they end just as dead to my Vagabond if I manage to make sure they are fighting on my terms. Doesn't matter if they have 100M SP's, I'm gonna own them.
I maintain that few pilots can actually fly more than a handful of ships very well, each has its own quirks that takes a lot of practice to get good in, so just because I am decent in a Vagabond doesn't meant I'd do well in an Energy Neut boat. (though I have the skills to do both)
Here's a good example, I have the skills to fly a Heavy Interdictor well. Unfortunately, I've never flown one in combat ever, so I'd be destroyed by anyone who knew the ships capabilities and limitations. My knowing how to fly 10 more ships then them will have nothing to do with the final outcome.
See, many of your "negative" comments are simply a matter of perception, and while its fine that you have them, know that the game actually is played by many and enjoyed, even for some of the very things you try to slam.
Is EVE perfect? Hardly. Tons of room for improvement all over the place. Is EVE one of the best gaming experiences available today despite its flaws?
In my opinion, absolutely.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
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Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
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"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
You know I wouldnt have pegged you as a hater if you weren't so negative. you seem to have massive issues with the game. And you bring your negativity to this forum over and over.
You bring up no valid points yet constantly bash and call people fanboys.
You start talking game mechanics and maybe you will be better received.
I'm no "hater" - I play the freakin' game right now! My negativity is to balance the over-positive. All this hippie business and sugar-coating is misleading new players like I was misled. Maybe I am drawn more to the negative specifically because of these overly positive posts that I find irritating. When I say something is bad, then what I'm really saying is that some other game does this better or it has a lot of room to improve.
What makes my points invalid? What makes your opinions right and my opinions wrong? To me, everyones opinion is right and justified and everyones points are valid. You can't just choose what you agree with or what you like. It is player feedback.
Like I said post something worth discussing instead of straight up bashing. You never focus on one thing how could anyone take what you post seriously?
Now you say your only posting negativity for balance on the forums? That doesn't sound crazy to you?
Basically saying your trolling to balance what you believe to be blind fanboism.
I am not a troll either. You like to throw labels at people, don't you? Quick to judge. How is pointing out the weaknesses of Eve bashing? What is bashing? How am I bashing? Why haven't you answered to any of my questions?
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
You know I wouldnt have pegged you as a hater if you weren't so negative. you seem to have massive issues with the game. And you bring your negativity to this forum over and over.
You bring up no valid points yet constantly bash and call people fanboys.
You start talking game mechanics and maybe you will be better received.
I'm no "hater" - I play the freakin' game right now! My negativity is to balance the over-positive. All this hippie business and sugar-coating is misleading new players like I was misled. Maybe I am drawn more to the negative specifically because of these overly positive posts that I find irritating. When I say something is bad, then what I'm really saying is that some other game does this better or it has a lot of room to improve.
What makes my points invalid? What makes your opinions right and my opinions wrong? To me, everyones opinion is right and justified and everyones points are valid. You can't just choose what you agree with or what you like. It is player feedback.
Like I said post something worth discussing instead of straight up bashing. You never focus on one thing how could anyone take what you post seriously?
Now you say your only posting negativity for balance on the forums? That doesn't sound crazy to you?
Basically saying your trolling to balance what you believe to be blind fanboism.
I am not a troll either. You like to throw labels at people, don't you? Quick to judge. How is pointing out the weaknesses of Eve bashing? What is bashing? How am I bashing? Why haven't you answered to any of my questions?
What questions? You havent brought up any mechanics/features to discuss! You have general complaints of the game as a whole without bringing up a specific feature in game (sign of a player who doesn't play the game).
Then you say you post negatives for no other reason other than countering positives because you believe people are swaying people with misinformation?
What misinformation? You bring no points to the table!!!
Playing: Rift, LotRO
Waiting on: GW2, BP
You have to take into account that ofcourse that which I write is my own opinion. Nothing I write is "the truth". I am joined by many in the belief that you can't catch up in Eve. That which was said in another thread about this matter was quite accurate of what I think. Only thing I'd like to add to that is that I consider the opportunity to switch builds is an edge: If you are a new player, veteran players have the option to change to your counter-build.
And this single statement is being dishonest on your part from where I stand. It has been proven countless times that a player can "catch" up vertically in almost every single ship or activity. Within about a year or so you can train up every skill you'll ever need to refine and mine in EVE and no one regardless of time in game will be able to exceed you.
Same with PVP, I've been focused on small (Mauraders and below) ship combat for the past 2.75 years and I have great skills in at least 25 or more ships and have no fear that I'm the perfect equal of any veteran in at least 10 or them.
Doesn't mean they can't fly 40 ships, and maybe 25 to perfection, but that doesn't matter, they end just as dead to my Vagabond if I manage to make sure they are fighting on my terms. Doesn't matter if they have 100M SP's, I'm gonna own them.
I maintain that few pilots can actually fly more than a handful of ships very well, each has its own quirks that takes a lot of practice to get good in, so just because I am decent in a Vagabond doesn't meant I'd do well in an Energy Neut boat. (though I have the skills to do both)
Here's a good example, I have the skills to fly a Heavy Interdictor well. Unfortunately, I've never flown one in combat ever, so I'd be destroyed by anyone who knew the ships capabilities and limitations. My knowing how to fly 10 more ships then them will have nothing to do with the final outcome.
See, many of your "negative" comments are simply a matter of perception, and while its fine that you have them, know that the game actually is played by many and enjoyed, even for some of the very things you try to slam.
Is EVE perfect? Hardly. Tons of room for improvement all over the place. Is EVE one of the best gaming experiences available today despite its flaws?
In my opinion, absolutely.
In the thread Squal'Zell said: "this has been said alot. yes you can catch up in your speciality, no you cant catch up in your diversity." And I agree with that. What I don't believe is that you should be excluding capital ships and marauders just to make your point valid. I count all the ships.
I am not being dishonest about that "I am joined by many in the belief that you can't catch up in Eve". You imply that I am lying. There actually is many - that is more than one - people who think you can't catch up in Eve. How is this false?
You are entitled to your opinion but it is no more "right" than mine is.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
You have to take into account that ofcourse that which I write is my own opinion. Nothing I write is "the truth". I am joined by many in the belief that you can't catch up in Eve. That which was said in another thread about this matter was quite accurate of what I think. Only thing I'd like to add to that is that I consider the opportunity to switch builds is an edge: If you are a new player, veteran players have the option to change to your counter-build.
And this single statement is being dishonest on your part from where I stand. It has been proven countless times that a player can "catch" up vertically in almost every single ship or activity. Within about a year or so you can train up every skill you'll ever need to refine and mine in EVE and no one regardless of time in game will be able to exceed you.
Same with PVP, I've been focused on small (Mauraders and below) ship combat for the past 2.75 years and I have great skills in at least 25 or more ships and have no fear that I'm the perfect equal of any veteran in at least 10 or them.
Doesn't mean they can't fly 40 ships, and maybe 25 to perfection, but that doesn't matter, they end just as dead to my Vagabond if I manage to make sure they are fighting on my terms. Doesn't matter if they have 100M SP's, I'm gonna own them.
I maintain that few pilots can actually fly more than a handful of ships very well, each has its own quirks that takes a lot of practice to get good in, so just because I am decent in a Vagabond doesn't meant I'd do well in an Energy Neut boat. (though I have the skills to do both)
Here's a good example, I have the skills to fly a Heavy Interdictor well. Unfortunately, I've never flown one in combat ever, so I'd be destroyed by anyone who knew the ships capabilities and limitations. My knowing how to fly 10 more ships then them will have nothing to do with the final outcome.
See, many of your "negative" comments are simply a matter of perception, and while its fine that you have them, know that the game actually is played by many and enjoyed, even for some of the very things you try to slam.
Is EVE perfect? Hardly. Tons of room for improvement all over the place. Is EVE one of the best gaming experiences available today despite its flaws?
In my opinion, absolutely.
In the thread Squal'Zell said: "this has been said alot. yes you can catch up in your speciality, no you cant catch up in your diversity." And I agree with that. What I don't believe is that you should be excluding capital ships and marauders just to make your point valid. I count all the ships.
I am not being dishonest about that "I am joined by many in the belief that you can't catch up in Eve". You imply that I am lying. There actually is many - that is more than one - people who think you can't catch up in Eve. How is this false?
You are entitled to your opinion but it is no more "right" than mine is.
Not one person has said you could catch a vet in the amount of ships they use. Where did you read that? and why did you gloss over the hundreds of people saying different before you started playing Eve?
Your pissed because a vet can fly more ships? Really? why? You can catch up in a specific ship or even multiple ships (including Caps) so what's the issue?
Playing: Rift, LotRO
Waiting on: GW2, BP
You have to take into account that ofcourse that which I write is my own opinion. Nothing I write is "the truth". I am joined by many in the belief that you can't catch up in Eve. That which was said in another thread about this matter was quite accurate of what I think. Only thing I'd like to add to that is that I consider the opportunity to switch builds is an edge: If you are a new player, veteran players have the option to change to your counter-build.
And this single statement is being dishonest on your part from where I stand. It has been proven countless times that a player can "catch" up vertically in almost every single ship or activity. Within about a year or so you can train up every skill you'll ever need to refine and mine in EVE and no one regardless of time in game will be able to exceed you.
Same with PVP, I've been focused on small (Mauraders and below) ship combat for the past 2.75 years and I have great skills in at least 25 or more ships and have no fear that I'm the perfect equal of any veteran in at least 10 or them.
Doesn't mean they can't fly 40 ships, and maybe 25 to perfection, but that doesn't matter, they end just as dead to my Vagabond if I manage to make sure they are fighting on my terms. Doesn't matter if they have 100M SP's, I'm gonna own them.
I maintain that few pilots can actually fly more than a handful of ships very well, each has its own quirks that takes a lot of practice to get good in, so just because I am decent in a Vagabond doesn't meant I'd do well in an Energy Neut boat. (though I have the skills to do both)
Here's a good example, I have the skills to fly a Heavy Interdictor well. Unfortunately, I've never flown one in combat ever, so I'd be destroyed by anyone who knew the ships capabilities and limitations. My knowing how to fly 10 more ships then them will have nothing to do with the final outcome.
See, many of your "negative" comments are simply a matter of perception, and while its fine that you have them, know that the game actually is played by many and enjoyed, even for some of the very things you try to slam.
Is EVE perfect? Hardly. Tons of room for improvement all over the place. Is EVE one of the best gaming experiences available today despite its flaws?
In my opinion, absolutely.
In the thread Squal'Zell said: "this has been said alot. yes you can catch up in your speciality, no you cant catch up in your diversity." And I agree with that. What I don't believe is that you should be excluding capital ships and marauders just to make your point valid. I count all the ships.
I am not being dishonest about that "I am joined by many in the belief that you can't catch up in Eve". You imply that I am lying. There actually is many - that is more than one - people who think you can't catch up in Eve. How is this false?
You are entitled to your opinion but it is no more "right" than mine is.
Not one person has said you could catch a vet in the amount of ships they use. Where did you read that? and why did you gloss over the hundreds of people saying different before you started playing Eve?
Your pissed because a vet can fly more ships? Really? why? You can catch up in a specific ship or even multiple ships (including Caps) so what's the issue?
i think the point that the 'complainer' is missing is that regardless of the 'ingame' skill levels, the thing thats often the determining factor in a fight is actual skills, or more precise, the ability to use the in game skills intelligently, you don't need to be 'uber' but you do need to be smart... and tactical awareness in this game is a skill worth developing. One of the reason why good FC's are so hard to find.
If you want to discuss the game's issues, here is one.
Why do I think the user interface is bad? Because the games feedback to the player is not sufficiently displayed or, in that example, misleading. All de-sync is misinformation. Sufficiently displayed means that when I am being warp disrupted, there's more than just a small picture in the overview or a small text that I have to read in the midst of battle. The optimal, a better, solution would be a clear icon in some place that was reserved for the states of your ship. Same place would display effects like damping, target painting etc.
Everything you read from the log, you take for granted, but icons and pictures are far quicker and easier way to tranfer that information to the player. When every state of you ship is displayed in the same place, the player knows to look for it.
As for the controls: For changing ammo or script, I have to 1. stop firing 2. change ammo 3.. start firing again. A more user friendly example would be to change ammo or lenses or script on the fly. There would be the loading time for ammo ofcourse but the weapon would just continue firing with different ammo after loading the new ones. Three tasks into just one: Change ammo.
Why isn't the chat window behind a key, like in other games. Press "T" or "Enter" to enter the chat window. When you do it like this, you free up many keys to use as shortcuts. Pressing single-button-shortcuts is far easier and simpler than using combination keys.
Also, one feature of Guild Wars came to mind that I miss in almost every game nowadays. Simple target calling. One player would broadcast a target with the text appearing: "I'm attacking target X, press "T" to my target." Rest of the players would then press "T" and they would have the same target. For Eve this might mean that the target in question would be made active or in the very least start to lock it. It would make a lot of this overview juggling, and "NEW PRIMARY" behind. Very simple yet very efficient system.
There has been research done that pie menus as opposed to drop down menus are in some cases quicker and more efficient. CCP should look to that research although when the amount of choices in both menus gets big (10+) even the pie menu becomes inefficient. Worth to look into, still.
I was planning to gather more suggestions and post them in some other thread but because you pressed the matter, here it is.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
You have to take into account that ofcourse that which I write is my own opinion. Nothing I write is "the truth". I am joined by many in the belief that you can't catch up in Eve. That which was said in another thread about this matter was quite accurate of what I think. Only thing I'd like to add to that is that I consider the opportunity to switch builds is an edge: If you are a new player, veteran players have the option to change to your counter-build.
And this single statement is being dishonest on your part from where I stand. It has been proven countless times that a player can "catch" up vertically in almost every single ship or activity. Within about a year or so you can train up every skill you'll ever need to refine and mine in EVE and no one regardless of time in game will be able to exceed you.
Same with PVP, I've been focused on small (Mauraders and below) ship combat for the past 2.75 years and I have great skills in at least 25 or more ships and have no fear that I'm the perfect equal of any veteran in at least 10 or them.
Doesn't mean they can't fly 40 ships, and maybe 25 to perfection, but that doesn't matter, they end just as dead to my Vagabond if I manage to make sure they are fighting on my terms. Doesn't matter if they have 100M SP's, I'm gonna own them.
I maintain that few pilots can actually fly more than a handful of ships very well, each has its own quirks that takes a lot of practice to get good in, so just because I am decent in a Vagabond doesn't meant I'd do well in an Energy Neut boat. (though I have the skills to do both)
Here's a good example, I have the skills to fly a Heavy Interdictor well. Unfortunately, I've never flown one in combat ever, so I'd be destroyed by anyone who knew the ships capabilities and limitations. My knowing how to fly 10 more ships then them will have nothing to do with the final outcome.
See, many of your "negative" comments are simply a matter of perception, and while its fine that you have them, know that the game actually is played by many and enjoyed, even for some of the very things you try to slam.
Is EVE perfect? Hardly. Tons of room for improvement all over the place. Is EVE one of the best gaming experiences available today despite its flaws?
In my opinion, absolutely.
In the thread Squal'Zell said: "this has been said alot. yes you can catch up in your speciality, no you cant catch up in your diversity." And I agree with that. What I don't believe is that you should be excluding capital ships and marauders just to make your point valid. I count all the ships.
I am not being dishonest about that "I am joined by many in the belief that you can't catch up in Eve". You imply that I am lying. There actually is many - that is more than one - people who think you can't catch up in Eve. How is this false?
You are entitled to your opinion but it is no more "right" than mine is.
Not one person has said you could catch a vet in the amount of ships they use. Where did you read that? and why did you gloss over the hundreds of people saying different before you started playing Eve?
Your pissed because a vet can fly more ships? Really? why? You can catch up in a specific ship or even multiple ships (including Caps) so what's the issue?
Not one person in this discussion that is. But several in real-life and while playing the game. I have no quarrel with anyone. I just dislike the fact that someone can be "better" by playing more (EDIT: Playing more as in having an older character. Not necessarily the actual playtime) - because that is what it is: Time in Eve is money spent. Somebody payed more to be "better".
I thought already explained this. Vet's ability to change into your counter-build is an edge. That is something I cannot catch up.
I know plenty of Eve players who have "payed" more from this game, and still know less than I know. It is not about player experience. And player experience is not directly proportional to the SP of your character, especially in Eve. I'm sure I don't have to explain this.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
You have to take into account that ofcourse that which I write is my own opinion. Nothing I write is "the truth". I am joined by many in the belief that you can't catch up in Eve. That which was said in another thread about this matter was quite accurate of what I think. Only thing I'd like to add to that is that I consider the opportunity to switch builds is an edge: If you are a new player, veteran players have the option to change to your counter-build.
And this single statement is being dishonest on your part from where I stand. It has been proven countless times that a player can "catch" up vertically in almost every single ship or activity. Within about a year or so you can train up every skill you'll ever need to refine and mine in EVE and no one regardless of time in game will be able to exceed you.
Same with PVP, I've been focused on small (Mauraders and below) ship combat for the past 2.75 years and I have great skills in at least 25 or more ships and have no fear that I'm the perfect equal of any veteran in at least 10 or them.
Doesn't mean they can't fly 40 ships, and maybe 25 to perfection, but that doesn't matter, they end just as dead to my Vagabond if I manage to make sure they are fighting on my terms. Doesn't matter if they have 100M SP's, I'm gonna own them.
I maintain that few pilots can actually fly more than a handful of ships very well, each has its own quirks that takes a lot of practice to get good in, so just because I am decent in a Vagabond doesn't meant I'd do well in an Energy Neut boat. (though I have the skills to do both)
Here's a good example, I have the skills to fly a Heavy Interdictor well. Unfortunately, I've never flown one in combat ever, so I'd be destroyed by anyone who knew the ships capabilities and limitations. My knowing how to fly 10 more ships then them will have nothing to do with the final outcome.
See, many of your "negative" comments are simply a matter of perception, and while its fine that you have them, know that the game actually is played by many and enjoyed, even for some of the very things you try to slam.
Is EVE perfect? Hardly. Tons of room for improvement all over the place. Is EVE one of the best gaming experiences available today despite its flaws?
In my opinion, absolutely.
In the thread Squal'Zell said: "this has been said alot. yes you can catch up in your speciality, no you cant catch up in your diversity." And I agree with that. What I don't believe is that you should be excluding capital ships and marauders just to make your point valid. I count all the ships.
I am not being dishonest about that "I am joined by many in the belief that you can't catch up in Eve". You imply that I am lying. There actually is many - that is more than one - people who think you can't catch up in Eve. How is this false?
You are entitled to your opinion but it is no more "right" than mine is.
Not one person has said you could catch a vet in the amount of ships they use. Where did you read that? and why did you gloss over the hundreds of people saying different before you started playing Eve?
Your pissed because a vet can fly more ships? Really? why? You can catch up in a specific ship or even multiple ships (including Caps) so what's the issue?
Not one person in this discussion that is. But several in real-life and while playing the game. I have no quarrel with anyone. I just dislike the fact that someone can be "better" by playing more (EDIT: Playing more as in having an older character. Not necessarily the actual playtime) - because that is what it is: Time in Eve is money spent. Somebody payed more to be "better".
I thought already explained this. Vet's ability to change into your counter-build is an edge. That is something I cannot catch up.
I know plenty of Eve players who have "payed" more from this game, and still know less than I know. It is not about player experience. And player experience is not directly proportional to the SP of your character, especially in Eve. I'm sure I don't have to explain this.
WHY SHOULD YOU BE EQUAL or BETTER THAN A PLAYER THATS INVESTED YEARS MORE THAN YOU!?!?!?!?!?!
Is it not enough to just practice and be better through experience? Not enough to catch the poor sod in specific roles?
when I was around a year old in Eve i flew a AF, Cruiser, BC and HAC all reasonably well. What ship could he switch to or what I should be asking is how stupid would I be to give him a chance to comeback at me with a new ship?
Anyway what does this matter? I fly around with nothing short of a small armada anyway.
Obviously the chat system could use some love and we all have made suggestions to the overview. I think the ammo switching is fine however.
[Mod Edit]
Playing: Rift, LotRO
Waiting on: GW2, BP
I guess the best way to explain my view is to provide you with an example:
Player A has spent time in game for 5 years. Player B has played the game for 5 months. Player A has played only PvE and crafted a lot. Player B has played high quality PvP only .
When these to players meet in a battle the player B should win. Time spent ingame should not matter. Only the player skill. And in case of Eve, SP does not equal player skill. Player(s) with more skill should win. I guess we both agree on that.
The fact still remains. You basically admitted that I'm right: I can't catch up. You also stated it doesn't matter.
This brings me to my point: The argument "You can't catch up" is true, but it has very little real effect on the game. I don't know why you got so worked up about it. It is pedantic, I admit, but the statement is valid. I'm sure I wrote this in some other post in some other thread aswell.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
Oh Yea....More narcissistic blather. Personally, the only thing I admit is your a troll with a very limited understanding of the game.
Your example is confusing to me.
I assure you, if Player A has only done PVE and crafted for 5 years, regardless of his trained skills, Player B (the experienced PVPer) could quite easily destroy player A depending on what ships they happened to be flying when the encounter occurred.
Even if they met in a heads up one on one fight (a rare thing in EVE) in identical ships types (an even more rare thing) it is most likely the experienced PVPer will win the encounter. I'll go so far to say the 5 year vet can be flying a Tech 2 fitted version of the same ship and still the edge goes to the PVP'er because he will know exactly how to fight his one ship.
I am the classic example of player A. I'm now in a PVP training corp because despite all my trained skills and ships, I suck at PVP. I don't properly know how to fight with guns, keeping my range properly set, watching my tranversals, knowing how to best counter my enemies fit (never let you Vaga get near a webber, or you're a dead man)
I venture to say 75% or more of the newer players in the game (1 year or less) who have done nothing but pvp in red vs blue could probably wreck me.
And remember, in EVE you never should fight alone. If you are a new player, and don't have the skills to win one on one, you bring two on one. That's what I do. EVE's not about fair fights, its about winning big, and I don't care how I win, just so that I'm alive and the other guy is in his pod.
But I will agree, you can never catch up with a veteran player horizontally, but I will put forth there really is no need to.
You mentioned I've avoided Caps and Super caps, not because I had to, but because I hate their role in the game. It isn't a form of combat I enjoy (large fleet engagements) I prefer smaller roaming gangs so I focused my training on being able to fly every single small ship in the game. (that way CCP can never nerf me)
Right now I'm training up my 3rd set of Tech 2 guns, Rails, (already have great Lasers and Projectiles) and later this year I'll be able to fit any Tech 2 gun short of the captials. Then hell, I guess I'll round out my missile and drone skills to complete the set.
Rght now I'm not sure we're disagreeing or in violent agreement, can't tell anymore.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
If I play RvB, my PVP will be exactly like that - cheap and accesible.
OK, my question still remains. What is your point?
If I play RvB, my PVP will be exactly like that - cheap and accesible.
OK, my question still remains. What is your point?
My point is that AT or RvB PvP represents 1% of Eve's PvP. It is closest to competitive PvP Eve can get, but it is not a competitive PvP game and if you advertise it as such, people will get disappointed. Most of Eve's PvP is far from RvB or AT.
Now, I know you can say that you can play just to way you like it. Stick to RvB and it will remain cheap and accessible, but for competitive PvP games, there are better games for it. Games that have specialized just in that one thing.
An example:
LotRO and DDO have PvP. They are not very good (the PvP in them). You can play those games and play the PvP only, which makes them PvP games for you, but that doesn't make them a PvP games for the rest. Majority would still agree that there are far better games for PvP than LotRO and DDO. If you would be advertising your belief that DDO and LotRO are PvP games, you'd be misleading people.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
Your example is confusing to me.
I assure you, if Player A has only done PVE and crafted for 5 years, regardless of his trained skills, Player B (the experienced PVPer) could quite easily destroy player A depending on what ships they happened to be flying when the encounter occurred.
Even if they met in a heads up one on one fight (a rare thing in EVE) in identical ships types (an even more rare thing) it is most likely the experienced PVPer will win the encounter. I'll go so far to say the 5 year vet can be flying a Tech 2 fitted version of the same ship and still the edge goes to the PVP'er because he will know exactly how to fight his one ship.
I am the classic example of player A. I'm now in a PVP training corp because despite all my trained skills and ships, I suck at PVP. I don't properly know how to fight with guns, keeping my range properly set, watching my tranversals, knowing how to best counter my enemies fit (never let you Vaga get near a webber, or you're a dead man)
I venture to say 75% or more of the newer players in the game (1 year or less) who have done nothing but pvp in red vs blue could probably wreck me.
And remember, in EVE you never should fight alone. If you are a new player, and don't have the skills to win one on one, you bring two on one. That's what I do. EVE's not about fair fights, its about winning big, and I don't care how I win, just so that I'm alive and the other guy is in his pod.
But I will agree, you can never catch up with a veteran player horizontally, but I will put forth there really is no need to.
You mentioned I've avoided Caps and Super caps, not because I had to, but because I hate their role in the game. It isn't a form of combat I enjoy (large fleet engagements) I prefer smaller roaming gangs so I focused my training on being able to fly every single small ship in the game. (that way CCP can never nerf me)
Right now I'm training up my 3rd set of Tech 2 guns, Rails, (already have great Lasers and Projectiles) and later this year I'll be able to fit any Tech 2 gun short of the captials. Then hell, I guess I'll round out my missile and drone skills to complete the set.
Rght now I'm not sure we're disagreeing or in violent agreement, can't tell anymore.
I think we're agreeing more than disagreeing. I just don't like the fact that someone gets a non-player-skill edge over me. That T2 ship is a non-skill edge over a younger character. And let's face it, if you know how to use it, T2 ships are far better than their T1 counterparts. Sure a veteran will beat some newb flying a T2 ship but when their player skill is more closely matched, the T2 ship is a non-skill edge.
This extends to the fact that the veteran player who can choose from multiple ships, as opposed to the few ships the rookie can fly, has an edge because he/she can choose the ship that is the very best to every situation.
The best player should always win. Not the one who has payed more for the game.
$$ -> Gametime -> SP -> better ships <=> $$ -> better ships.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
Ok this line confuses me, it sounds like you want a game where all characters are equal and theres no progression. I honestly can't think of an mmo that doesn't have this. I'm gonna assume you mean you dislike players having a advantage due to time instead of play amount here. If that is the case, then stop posting negative things people already know and if it bothers you that much stop playing eve.
Everyone knows eve has a time base progression, it's one of the first thing people learn about the game so you don't need to inform people about this. It's also something that is not up for debate or change, it is one of the core features of the game. Trying to argue against this would be like me going into wow forums complaining that it would a lot better if we just did away with the whole elves and orcs thing and changed it to a sci fi game with mutants and aliens.
In all games more skilled characters with better equipment will have an advantage, you really don't need to tell people this it isn't helpful. What is helpfull is telling people how to get around this, telling them things like; how big the gap is, how to specialize properly, how numbers are an advantage how you should use cheap equipment to increase your cost efficiency. Just repeating over and over again "characters with more skills are better" only serves to discourage people.
Into the breach meatbags
Ok this line confuses me, it sounds like you want a game where all characters are equal and theres no progression. I honestly can't think of an mmo that doesn't have this. I'm gonna assume you mean you dislike players having a advantage due to time instead of play amount here. If that is the case, then stop posting negative things people already know and if it bothers you that much stop playing eve.
Everyone knows eve has a time base progression, it's one of the first thing people learn about the game so you don't need to inform people about this. It's also something that is not up for debate or change, it is one of the core features of the game. Trying to argue against this would be like me going into wow forums complaining that it would a lot better if we just did away with the whole elves and orcs thing and changed it to a sci fi game with mutants and aliens.
In all games more skilled characters with better equipment will have an advantage, you really don't need to tell people this it isn't helpful. What is helpfull is telling people how to get around this, telling them things like; how big the gap is, how to specialize properly, how numbers are an advantage how you should use cheap equipment to increase your cost efficiency. Just repeating over and over again "characters with more skills are better" only serves to discourage people.
It’s the player that is aggressive and thinks fast with good situational awareness that usually wins. Time and skill points are completely secondary. To put this another way, so it is easier to understand, if you think allot of SP are going to save you from a good PVP’er you are going to lose allot of ships.
If you fly aggressive and know what your doing, you will see you’re objections melt away.
The thing you’re not seeing is all the options and opportunities that evolve in PVP (not to mention that your argument is based on a solo, not a gang, mentality), and it’s learning to quickly take advantage of good opportunities and escape bad one, that really separate the winners and losers in this game.
Just because you grinded for a stat for X hours does not mean you are better than another player, and this games respects that by making the environment with all it's complexities a key player.
BTW I'm just agreeing with Tyhado here : )
For crying out loud, if you want to be equal or better than everyone else then you must start a game when it s launches.Not 7 years after the game launches, want that go play an FPS. As posted by Typhado MMOs have progression, if they didn't you would complain that players starting after you have exact same things you have, meh..........
Eve has skills that run from 1 to 5 and can be learnt relatively quickly that coupled with the fact that you can only fly one ship at a time makes Eve the easiest game to be on an equal footing with an older player in pvp, if you cannot get your head around that then Eve will be to hard for you anyway.
Bottom line is that if you don't like it as it is then there nothing anyone can do for you, Eve will continue and grow without you, bye bye.
As you said yourself, I can stick to FW or RvB and do nothing else, then it will be 100% of my PVP time.
It is a valid and real option for any new or old player. Again, what is the point of this statement?
As for the rest, I have no idea what you talk about, how it is related to EVE nor what 'competitive' is supposed to mean.
You make some vague subjective assumptions probably making sense to you only.
To me, EVE is the best PVP MMO(RPG) on the market because it does not depend on character progression or items and have roles and options in PVP for everyone - old and new, poor and rich, no-lifers and causal gamers.
With respect I dont think this is entirley true.
I've been playing Eve for 3 years and there are many many players out there who started playing WAY after me who are far better than me. On the flip side there are people I've known who have been playing Eve longer, but guess what?.. they've stopped playing a long time ago... so i've caught up with them
Remember that Eve is a GROWING MMO, that means there are more and more new players signing up all the time... In fact I'd have to say there are probably way way more new players playing eve today than there are "veterans"
And even when you do get players who have been playing for 5 years.. they arnt interested in 'being better' than someone else they tend to be very relaxed people who rather just see their corp grow.
*sigh*
No. You're still stuck in the SP = levels = higher level always beats lower level mindset. I guess you're just not capable of conceiving a game that doesn't follow this linear progession. It doesn't matter to you that it has been demonstrated repeatedly that what you said isn't true - or at the very least is nowhere near the whole truth. No matter what we say, you just can't believe it.
SP are useful. Having more of them is good. But they're just another tool, like ISK, in game contacts, player skill, game knowledge, assets and luck. A suprlus in one can be used to compensate for lack in another. SP have no special staus over and above the others, not least because if you really want them, you can buy them.
Give me liberty or give me lasers
With respect I dont think this is entirley true.
I've been playing Eve for 3 years and there are many many players out there who started playing WAY after me who are far better than me. On the flip side there are people I've known who have been playing Eve longer, but guess what?.. they've stopped playing a long time ago... so i've caught up with them
Remember that Eve is a GROWING MMO, that means there are more and more new players signing up all the time... In fact I'd have to say there are probably way way more new players playing eve today than there are "veterans"
And even when you do get players who have been playing for 5 years.. they arnt interested in 'being better' than someone else they tend to be very relaxed people who rather just see their corp grow.
Sorry you mis-understand me, if you believe that the only way you can be 'better than' or 'equal to' someone is to start at launch then start at launch or play an FPS. Ofc what you say is 100% correct but some peeps just dont see it like that.
EDIT:I would just like to add that i have been playing Eve since Sept 2003 and the game launched in July 2003 (if i am not mistaken). I ran my account for nealry 5 years non-stop and after that I play on and off until today.
I have more or less trained every non - capital combat skill there is, all ships, and modules i can use. I have various BS skills at level 5, Amarr, Caldari and Minmatar, as well as command ships and BC at level 5, i can fly every class of combat ship across multiple races. I can also fly two tech3 cruisers(amarr and Gallente), I actually struggle to find things to train that will assist me in combat. The usual progression for me would be to train Capital ships which i may do later .
~Point being you do run out of skills to train in combat. Even if i went in to Capitals, I would have easily trained carrier/super carrier and Dread, possibly even a titian by now. So tell me again that you cannot catchup.
Oh I see! Sorry for misunderstanding.
No. You're still stuck in the SP = levels = higher level always beats lower level mindset. I guess you're just not capable of conceiving a game that doesn't follow this linear progession.
Yep, some people will always do the SP=levels=win math. They know that in WoW (or whatever linear progression game) a level 40 warrior has absolutely no chance vs a level 60 mage, so it must be that way in Eve too.
Truth is, in Eve, after you've played/trained a few months, victory or defeat depends on what ship are you aboard in a certain moment. A scissor-class ship and 5 months SP will still defeat a paper-class ship no matter how many skill-years the other player invested. On Eve, knowledge is power. On Eve, there is no "better ship". You will never have a "final ship", that can face every situation.
aaahhh, knew I'd find teh link eventually
http://eveboard.com/pilot/Dr_Caymus
Little history on the guy in the link. Dr caymus is the most skilled character in eve with a total of 146,104,372 SP (at time of writing). and I've yet to hear of someone to have ever had confirmed more sp than him. However Dr caymus is extremely focused meaning his characters pvp skills are poor, it would be quite easy for a year old player that focused on pvp to have a better ship. Hell until the neural remap 1 year ago you could get more combat skills in about a week than he had.
However come to sciences and their are only a handful of characters in the game better at invention with over 53 mil points in science. Though if you really wanna get into invention (a very skill heavy part of the game) if you focus on 1 specific area a few months and you can perform the same as him, some more training and you'll have another area and so on.
Into the breach meatbags