FPS's are all about providing people with a totally balanced set of tools to PVP with and it is more or less totally up to player skill to prevail in combat.
MMORPG's are all about character progression, and they purposely provide tools to augment your actual skill by rewarding the player for either time spent playing the game, time spent paying for the game (as in EVE), gear that you acquire through raiding, cash shops or just plain luck etc.
I know some folks don't like this aspect of the genre, but its never going to change, and is in fact one reason why many of us play them vs FPS.
EVE isn't unique in this regard, it just chooses to reward people for playing longer rather than playing more. (from a skill training perspective only of course). I love the feature, others loath it, just a matter of whether you have a lot of available time to play a game.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
No. You're still stuck in the SP = levels = higher level always beats lower level mindset. I guess you're just not capable of conceiving a game that doesn't follow this linear progession.
Yep, some people will always do the SP=levels=win math. They know that in WoW (or whatever linear progression game) a level 40 warrior has absolutely no chance vs a level 60 mage, so it must be that way in Eve too.
Truth is, in Eve, after you've played/trained a few months, victory or defeat depends on what ship are you aboard in a certain moment. A scissor-class ship and 5 months SP will still defeat a paper-class ship no matter how many skill-years the other player invested. On Eve, knowledge is power. On Eve, there is no "better ship". You will never have a "final ship", that can face every situation.
Exactly! Very well put.
Combine that with the game knowledge of how to fit your ship to suit it's role, the intelligence to pick fights you can win, the social skills to attract wingmen who can cover your weak spots, and this talk of "permanent disadvantage" is shown as the nonsense that it is.
No. You're still stuck in the SP = levels = higher level always beats lower level mindset. I guess you're just not capable of conceiving a game that doesn't follow this linear progession.
Yep, some people will always do the SP=levels=win math. They know that in WoW (or whatever linear progression game) a level 40 warrior has absolutely no chance vs a level 60 mage, so it must be that way in Eve too.
Truth is, in Eve, after you've played/trained a few months, victory or defeat depends on what ship are you aboard in a certain moment. A scissor-class ship and 5 months SP will still defeat a paper-class ship no matter how many skill-years the other player invested. On Eve, knowledge is power. On Eve, there is no "better ship". You will never have a "final ship", that can face every situation.
Exactly! Very well put.
Combine that with the game knowledge of how to fit your ship to suit it's role, the intelligence to pick fights you can win, the social skills to attract wingmen who can cover your weak spots, and this talk of "permanent disadvantage" is shown as the nonsense that it is.
I agree as well.
I have been playing since last spring and I run lowsec missions with 4 year vets.
I am effective and act as their point/recon vessel with my covert ops ships.
My job is to get them into a sector without gettign killed, so I guide them in and out and torpedo the enemy when called upon.
I could never do that in a linear leveling MMO like WOW for instance.
I ususally get left to my own devices in a guild full of max levels as I work my way up tho their level.
EVE is the way MMOs need to be done across the board.
I just don't like the fact that someone gets a non-player-skill edge over me.
Ok this line confuses me, it sounds like you want a game where all characters are equal and theres no progression. I honestly can't think of an mmo that doesn't have this.
Rest of the MMOs or "traditional MMOs" have a level cap where everyone is equal. You can always grind the same equipment. In short: You can catch up. Mentor systems and the like promote this fact.
It seems that Kyleran is the only one who truelly understands (No, it is not a "flaw". It is just the way I think).
Some of you are just picking and choosing, ignoring some sentences I've wrote down. I have not made the statement:
more SP = win
That was you. Read what I write and stop making ridiculous assumptions and connections.
I've already wrote a response to your examples of "player A beats player B's [ship X] with a mere [ship Y] and let me repeat it:
... Sure a veteran (player skill) will beat some newb (player skill) flying a T2 ship but when their players' (player)skill is more closely matched, the T2 ship is a non-(player)skill advantage.
This extends to the fact that the veteran(SP) player who can choose from multiple ships, as opposed to the few ships the rookie(SP) can fly, has an advantage because he/she can choose the ship that is the very best to every situation. ...
Maybe now that I have made it easier to understand, you see that I make the difference between player skill and character skill, and where I make it.
To the one who said that in WoW lvl60 beats lvl40 character - d'uh. And a thanatos beats riftter. If you want to play the card that many rifters can beat one thanatos with good teamwork - so can many lvl40s beat the lvl60.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
This extends to the fact that the veteran(SP) player who can choose from multiple ships, as opposed to the few ships the rookie(SP) can fly, has an advantage because he/she can choose the ship that is the very best to every situation. ...
Just taking this point, I have yet to hear one player say to another (except in the context of friendly "duels"):
"Hey, wait right there for a sec while I dock and get a better ship"
The advantage of having options seem to be mitigated, to a reasonable extent (imo), by the mechanics in which you excercise them.
-mklinic
"Do something right, no one remembers. Do something wrong, no one forgets" -from No One Remembers by In Strict Confidence
This extends to the fact that the veteran(SP) player who can choose from multiple ships, as opposed to the few ships the rookie(SP) can fly, has an advantage because he/she can choose the ship that is the very best to every situation. ...
Just taking this point, I have yet to hear one player say to another (except in the context of friendly "duels"):
"Hey, wait right there for a sec while I dock and get a better ship"
The advantage of having options seem to be mitigated, to a reasonable extent (imo), by the mechanics in which you excercise them.
Ever heard of scouts and/or metagame? Surely I don't need to explain how these things are related to this situation.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
Ever heard of scouts and/or metagame? Surely I don't need to explain how these things are related to this situation.
Yes, and that goes back to the numerous people saying that a player, surrounding themselves with complementing players, stand the best chance at success.
Now if you are saying that I could scout the person, run back how ever many jumps to get my combat ship and then see them in the same exact place I left them, I would think that is impractical to expect and I would be very lucky if that actually did happen.
So, perhaps a rephrase; in my opinion, the game mechanics do a decent job of mitigating the disparity between player SP and the potential for advantage that having more options provides the more senior player.
-mklinic
"Do something right, no one remembers. Do something wrong, no one forgets" -from No One Remembers by In Strict Confidence
Situations change in comabt constantly with no opportunity to go and change ship.
Combat is combat is combat and anything can happen at any time regardless of what ship you are in, even if you are a vetran and have the best ship it can still end in tears, check out the thread titled
Where a 200m isk command ship dies to mining barges.
Point being, the ship you fly can help but is not a given, like the power of a level 60 WoW warrior, and i dont think even a hundred level 40s can take him down as there will just resist resist resist all over the shop.
Ever heard of scouts and/or metagame? Surely I don't need to explain how these things are related to this situation.
Yes, and that goes back to the numerous people saying that a player, surrounding themselves with complementing players, stand the best chance at success.
Now if you are saying that I could scout the person, run back how ever many jumps to get my combat ship and then see them in the same exact place I left them, I would think that is impractical to expect and I would be very lucky if that actually did happen.
So, perhaps a rephrase; in my opinion, the game mechanics do a decent job of mitigating the disparity between player SP and the potential for advantage that having more options provides the more senior player.
Nah, scouting yourself and then switching is idiotic. Someone else scouting while you are in POS or station is far more practical. Then there's the "we know they're going to fly these ships thing..." But yes, you are correct the advantage is minor - but by no means nonexistent. It is subjective how minor that advantage is. Best PvP games I've played haven't had this kind of "feature" - no advantage to the older character whatsoever.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
This extends to the fact that the veteran(SP) player who can choose from multiple ships, as opposed to the few ships the rookie(SP) can fly, has an advantage because he/she can choose the ship that is the very best to every situation. ...
Just taking this point, I have yet to hear one player say to another (except in the context of friendly "duels"):
"Hey, wait right there for a sec while I dock and get a better ship"
The advantage of having options seem to be mitigated, to a reasonable extent (imo), by the mechanics in which you excercise them.
Ever heard of scouts and/or metagame? Surely I don't need to explain how these things are related to this situation.
Scouting and gaining intel is not a Vet only thing. A five month old player could also do that and switch to a appropriate ship.
Vets arent the only ones capable of switching ships and gaining an advantage.
I still would like to know what a vet would do to counter someone like me. I mean I fly two different racial HAC lines, AFs, BC and a number of Cruisers. He's going to bring a super capital to low sec? nope. A BS? LOL! ive decimated BS pilots. Faction ships? seriously....
You act as if the game offers an unlimited number of ships to train in. I said this before around my one year point i was already flying Hacs, AFs, Cruisers and BCs solidly with one faction and now at my second year Im flying two factions (Gallente, Minmatar). I don't see this advantage that your talking about.
God... I feel like im having a 1v1 balance discussion with an ex-wow player just trying Eve. Seriously? I think you've spent way too much time dreaming about pvp, waiting in empire playing with your little EFT dreaming of big ships like a level 1 newb in WoW dreaming of a high armor set.
Ever heard of scouts and/or metagame? Surely I don't need to explain how these things are related to this situation.
Yes, and that goes back to the numerous people saying that a player, surrounding themselves with complementing players, stand the best chance at success.
Now if you are saying that I could scout the person, run back how ever many jumps to get my combat ship and then see them in the same exact place I left them, I would think that is impractical to expect and I would be very lucky if that actually did happen.
So, perhaps a rephrase; in my opinion, the game mechanics do a decent job of mitigating the disparity between player SP and the potential for advantage that having more options provides the more senior player.
Nah, scouting yourself and then switching is idiotic. Someone else scouting while you are in POS or station is far more practical. Then there's the "we know they're going to fly these ships thing..." But yes, you are correct the advantage is minor - but by no means nonexistent. It is subjective how minor that advantage is. Best PvP games I've played haven't had this kind of "feature" - no advantage to the older character whatsoever.
Oh stop we had uber power gamers that ruled the day in DAoC that a new player could never catch due to that persons skill, social ties and generally having access to stuff you just couldnt touch as a newer player due to those ties.
WoW isnt a real pvp game so we need to stop trying to compare it to eve. A game like Shadowbane was also like that. older players owned the game and you were basically a slave to them no matter how hard you tried.
Advantages of older gamers is nothing new but through group play a new player could atleast be useful in Eve something I couldnt say for DAoC and SB.
Why don't you just stick to level capped games if you want total fairness when it comes to skills/specs? Eve is the way it is and the door is that way---------> If you dont like it.
Nah, scouting yourself and then switching is idiotic. Someone else scouting while you are in POS or station is far more practical. Then there's the "we know they're going to fly these ships thing..." But yes, you are correct the advantage is minor - but by no means nonexistent. It is subjective how minor that advantage is. Best PvP games I've played haven't had this kind of "feature" - no advantage to the older character whatsoever.
Yeah, I was generally trying to paint the "scout yourself" idea as a bit absurd, but more so to underscore that, as rockgod99 had said, the preferred scenario is not a "vet only" advantage situations.
That said, there is no secret that the game has time based training and, in the most generic sense, this would indicate that someone who has subscribed for a longer time has more skill points. There are some caveats in the SP/hour rates based on how you've spec'd and what you are training relative to your attributes, but as a general rule I think we can agree on that point, right?
So, the point seem to be that the greater SP affords some advantage, even if it is just the advantage of having more options, to the older player. Sure, I can agree that the older player has more options and I can understand where you see that as an advantage, but I maintain the belief that the advantage is adequatley managed by the game mechanics. I specifically spoke to your example only because, much like your views on many others' examples, I didn't think it was very representative of an in game situation.
In the end, I don't see us changing each other's perceptions. From what I gather, you are currently playing, so I hope that you are at least enjoying yourself despite our different views. In the end, it is a matter of whether you are getting your (or at least someone's) $15 worth .. Fly safe.
-mklinic
"Do something right, no one remembers. Do something wrong, no one forgets" -from No One Remembers by In Strict Confidence
Oh god... I feel like Rockgod deliberately misses my meaning on purpose.
Stop making assumptions. No, I haven't played WoW. Not every gamer outside of Eve is the same.
"Real PvP" is subjective. -> I don't consider ganking "real PvP".
I don't know how can I have a rational argument with you. You're very hostile and take things way too personal.
Every game, and I do mean every game, has flaws or things I dislike in it. It doesn't mean I should stop playing them altogether. No game is perfect - not one.
Maybe you didn't find personal ties in other games useless but hey... I get to train PvP in GW with the world champions so maybe it was total waste of time. /sarcasm
You can have benefit from social ties in any game. It is subjective how useful that is.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
Nah, scouting yourself and then switching is idiotic. Someone else scouting while you are in POS or station is far more practical. Then there's the "we know they're going to fly these ships thing..." But yes, you are correct the advantage is minor - but by no means nonexistent. It is subjective how minor that advantage is. Best PvP games I've played haven't had this kind of "feature" - no advantage to the older character whatsoever.
Yeah, I was generally trying to paint the "scout yourself" idea as a bit absurd, but more so to underscore that, as rockgod99 had said, the preferred scenario is not a "vet only" advantage situations.
That said, there is no secret that the game has time based training and, in the most generic sense, this would indicate that someone who has subscribed for a longer time has more skill points. There are some caveats in the SP/hour rates based on how you've spec'd and what you are training relative to your attributes, but as a general rule I think we can agree on that point, right?
So, the point seem to be that the greater SP affords some advantage, even if it is just the advantage of having more options, to the older player. Sure, I can agree that the older player has more options and I can understand where you see that as an advantage, but I maintain the belief that the advantage is adequatley managed by the game mechanics. I specifically spoke to your example only because, much like your views on many others' examples, I didn't think it was very representative of an in game situation.
In the end, I don't see us changing each other's perceptions. From what I gather, you are currently playing, so I hope that you are at least enjoying yourself despite our different views. In the end, it is a matter of whether you are getting your (or at least someone's) $15 worth .. Fly safe.
I think I've found few Eve players worth arguing with. Thanks for changing my previous views.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
Nah, scouting yourself and then switching is idiotic. Someone else scouting while you are in POS or station is far more practical. Then there's the "we know they're going to fly these ships thing..." But yes, you are correct the advantage is minor - but by no means nonexistent. It is subjective how minor that advantage is. Best PvP games I've played haven't had this kind of "feature" - no advantage to the older character whatsoever.
Yeah, I was generally trying to paint the "scout yourself" idea as a bit absurd, but more so to underscore that, as rockgod99 had said, the preferred scenario is not a "vet only" advantage situations.
That said, there is no secret that the game has time based training and, in the most generic sense, this would indicate that someone who has subscribed for a longer time has more skill points. There are some caveats in the SP/hour rates based on how you've spec'd and what you are training relative to your attributes, but as a general rule I think we can agree on that point, right?
So, the point seem to be that the greater SP affords some advantage, even if it is just the advantage of having more options, to the older player. Sure, I can agree that the older player has more options and I can understand where you see that as an advantage, but I maintain the belief that the advantage is adequatley managed by the game mechanics. I specifically spoke to your example only because, much like your views on many others' examples, I didn't think it was very representative of an in game situation.
In the end, I don't see us changing each other's perceptions. From what I gather, you are currently playing, so I hope that you are at least enjoying yourself despite our different views. In the end, it is a matter of whether you are getting your (or at least someone's) $15 worth .. Fly safe.
This is why im going back and forth with this guy. His complaint isnt something that actually matters in game.
When I think of Vet advantages I think of them having more experience in game and better social ties. I mean wanna complain about an advantage? Those vets in massive power blocks are damn near unstoppable and it has nothing to do with their Sp total.
Maybe he sees this disadvantage since hes a solo player? I roam around with quite a few corpies in low sec and I havent run into these so called disadvantages that make Eve less of a pvp game.
I just don't like the fact that someone gets a non-player-skill edge over me.
Ok this line confuses me, it sounds like you want a game where all characters are equal and theres no progression. I honestly can't think of an mmo that doesn't have this.
1) Rest of the MMOs or "traditional MMOs" have a level cap where everyone is equal. You can always grind the same equipment. In short: You can catch up. Mentor systems and the like promote this fact.
2) It seems that Kyleran is the only one who truelly understands (No, it is not a "flaw". It is just the way I think).
3) To the one who said that in WoW lvl60 beats lvl40 character - d'uh. And a thanatos beats riftter. If you want to play the card that many rifters can beat one thanatos with good teamwork - so can many lvl40s beat the lvl60.
1) Have you ever actually "caught up" to the best players in any MMORPG ever? Sure, I've matched them in levels, but the hardcore have always had far better gear than me no matter what.
Saying something is theoretically possible isn't really practical and comparing it to EVE isn't valid because when it comes to flying a Vagabond, I am physically equal to any other player in the game. My stats are all at 5, I can afford the best modules to fly it should I chose to. In the right combat situations I can win with that Vagabond depending on my own personal skill, nothing more. I say in a game like WOW this will never happen to 99% of the players.
2) I realize that 'flaw' has a negative connotation, but when the way you think goes against the core convention of almost all MMORPG's (that they are not like FPS's and player inequality is inherit in their design) you are plainly wrong, and that is not an opinion.
Now there are games like Planetside and GW's that do provide a more balanced experience like you desire, but most folks agree those games don't really even belong in the genre because of the balanced, FPS nature of their combat models. (we tend to refer to them as MMOFPS games). EVE is certainly not one of those. You can dislike the model, but you can't really challenge the design its just the way these games usually are. (and how most of us want them to be)
3) For some reason WOW and many other games seem to think there is a need to make it so players (espeically casters) should not be able to land a blow on a higher level character past a certain range. I play Aion now and it is wildly frustrating to me and my son that our Cleric/Mage combo cannot defeat a single player who is 5 levels above us because 75-90% of our damage/CC spells totallybounce off.
Now in DAOC, 20 level 30 characters could take down a 50 (esp if they were melee) but I haven't seen many games since that permit it. (stupid mechanic, but that's a discussion for another day). So I don't believe in WOW an army of 40's could beat a single 80. I don't think they could even hit him.
Contrast this with EVE, I can be a six month old player in a Raven and my faction fit Torpedos are going to hit damn hard against the right target and I don't have to fear being useless in a fight. Heck, a one month old player in a Rifter can be death to any other frigate flyer for the most part, as long as he has the skills to fight it effectively. (they'd destroy me, because I can't fly frigs worth a damn)
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Eve online is open for everyone and you can do anything you want in the game, of course vets will have somewhat an advantage since they can pretty much fly any ship they want ( i can ).
But if you start out new and stick to 1 race / faction training , then you can become proficient at that within a few months.
8 min of EVE combat ... What you really see here is that in a complete and well designed game like EVE everyone plays and everyone contributes…….And everyone has fun.
Ok thanks for showing me this.
Up to this point in time I actually thought that combat EVE takes more skill than everyone targeting the exact same target. Definitely not the type of game I am looking for.
That being said I envy those who find this entertaining, they have a game to play and I dont ...
1) Have you ever actually "caught up" to the best players in any MMORPG ever? Sure, I've matched them in levels, but the hardcore have always had far better gear than me no matter what.
Saying something is theoretically possible isn't really practical and comparing it to EVE isn't valid because when it comes to flying a Vagabond, I am physically equal to any other player in the game. My stats are all at 5, I can afford the best modules to fly it should I chose to. In the right combat situations I can win with that Vagabond depending on my own personal skill, nothing more. I say in a game like WOW this will never happen to 99% of the players.
2) I realize that 'flaw' has a negative connotation, but when the way you think goes against the core convention of almost all MMORPG's (that they are not like FPS's and player inequality is inherit in their design) you are plainly wrong, and that is not an opinion.
Now there are games like Planetside and GW's that do provide a more balanced experience like you desire, but most folks agree those games don't really even belong in the genre because of the balanced, FPS nature of their combat models. (we tend to refer to them as MMOFPS games). EVE is certainly not one of those. You can dislike the model, but you can't really challenge the design its just the way these games usually are. (and how most of us want them to be)
3) For some reason WOW and many other games seem to think there is a need to make it so players (espeically casters) should not be able to land a blow on a higher level character past a certain range. I play Aion now and it is wildly frustrating to me and my son that our Cleric/Mage combo cannot defeat a single player who is 5 levels above us because 75-90% of our damage/CC spells totallybounce off.
Now in DAOC, 20 level 30 characters could take down a 50 (esp if they were melee) but I haven't seen many games since that permit it. (stupid mechanic, but that's a discussion for another day). So I don't believe in WOW an army of 40's could beat a single 80. I don't think they could even hit him.
Contrast this with EVE, I can be a six month old player in a Raven and my faction fit Torpedos are going to hit damn hard against the right target and I don't have to fear being useless in a fight. Heck, a one month old player in a Rifter can be death to any other frigate flyer for the most part, as long as he has the skills to fight it effectively. (they'd destroy me, because I can't fly frigs worth a damn)
1) Yes, I have. Both in terms of character power and player skill. It is discouraging that something like it is not possible even in theory. As for the vagabond example, I have no experience of WoW's PvP but I have a hunch you're slightly dramatic. I believe that even WoW, as gear centric it may be, has plenty of player skill factors contributing to the outcome of PvP.
2) Like you said, so far most of these games have had imbalanced PvP, but is it really one of the definining factors of MMORPG? I refuse to believe so. GW was a CORPG according to the devs but by all means it played very much like any other MMORPG. Now that GW2 will be a MMORPG, will it have imbalanced PvP? -No, the devs have stated that the PvP remain balanced. There may not even be a level cap but at some point your levels will have very little to no effect on your character's power. The level serves as an e-pen-.
Even WAR buffed (or tried to balance) weaker characters in PvP. I don't think it's the only one.
3) We're getting stuck in examples, good and bad ones (choose a game and level gap, which makes it impossible). The idea still remains: Many small can bring down few big.
It is Eve's merit that a new player can feel he/she is contributing - even if in reality it is next to nothing. If there would be a strict limit to players who can be in a fleet or in a battle. Then all new characters are harmful.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
8 min of EVE combat ... What you really see here is that in a complete and well designed game like EVE everyone plays and everyone contributes…….And everyone has fun.
Ok thanks for showing me this.
Up to this point in time I actually thought that combat EVE takes more skill than everyone targeting the exact same target. Definitely not the type of game I am looking for.
That being said I envy those who find this entertaining, they have a game to play and I dont ...
Small gang warfare is wee bit better but I know exactly how you feel.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
1) Have you ever actually "caught up" to the best players in any MMORPG ever? Sure, I've matched them in levels, but the hardcore have always had far better gear than me no matter what.
Saying something is theoretically possible isn't really practical and comparing it to EVE isn't valid because when it comes to flying a Vagabond, I am physically equal to any other player in the game. My stats are all at 5, I can afford the best modules to fly it should I chose to. In the right combat situations I can win with that Vagabond depending on my own personal skill, nothing more. I say in a game like WOW this will never happen to 99% of the players.
2) I realize that 'flaw' has a negative connotation, but when the way you think goes against the core convention of almost all MMORPG's (that they are not like FPS's and player inequality is inherit in their design) you are plainly wrong, and that is not an opinion.
Now there are games like Planetside and GW's that do provide a more balanced experience like you desire, but most folks agree those games don't really even belong in the genre because of the balanced, FPS nature of their combat models. (we tend to refer to them as MMOFPS games). EVE is certainly not one of those. You can dislike the model, but you can't really challenge the design its just the way these games usually are. (and how most of us want them to be)
3) For some reason WOW and many other games seem to think there is a need to make it so players (espeically casters) should not be able to land a blow on a higher level character past a certain range. I play Aion now and it is wildly frustrating to me and my son that our Cleric/Mage combo cannot defeat a single player who is 5 levels above us because 75-90% of our damage/CC spells totallybounce off.
Now in DAOC, 20 level 30 characters could take down a 50 (esp if they were melee) but I haven't seen many games since that permit it. (stupid mechanic, but that's a discussion for another day). So I don't believe in WOW an army of 40's could beat a single 80. I don't think they could even hit him.
Contrast this with EVE, I can be a six month old player in a Raven and my faction fit Torpedos are going to hit damn hard against the right target and I don't have to fear being useless in a fight. Heck, a one month old player in a Rifter can be death to any other frigate flyer for the most part, as long as he has the skills to fight it effectively. (they'd destroy me, because I can't fly frigs worth a damn)
1) Yes, I have. Both in terms of character power and player skill. It is discouraging that something like it is not possible even in theory. As for the vagabond example, I have no experience of WoW's PvP but I have a hunch you're slightly dramatic. I believe that even WoW, as gear centric it may be, has plenty of player skill factors contributing to the outcome of PvP.
2) Like you said, so far most of these games have had imbalanced PvP, but is it really one of the definining factors of MMORPG? I refuse to believe so. GW was a CORPG according to the devs but by all means it played very much like any other MMORPG. Now that GW2 will be a MMORPG, will it have imbalanced PvP? -No, the devs have stated that the PvP remain balanced. There may not even be a level cap but at some point your levels will have very little to no effect on your character's power. The level serves as an e-pen-.
Even WAR buffed (or tried to balance) weaker characters in PvP. I don't think it's the only one.
3) We're getting stuck in examples, good and bad ones (choose a game and level gap, which makes it impossible). The idea still remains: Many small can bring down few big.
It is Eve's merit that a new player can feel he/she is contributing - even if in reality it is next to nothing. If there would be a strict limit to players who can be in a fleet or in a battle. Then all new characters are harmful.
a new player in Eve makes a genuine contribution, it certainly isnt next to nothing, i think you underestimate the importance of fleets, Eve, is not a single player game, its not a case of 1v1, you might test a setup on your ship in 1v1 with a corpmate but thats all, and imposing limits on fleets... is crazy.. Eve isnt a case of jumping in the biggest ship you have and going to attack something (good way to lose that ship imo!) even in roams you need a good mix of ships, and understimating even a frigate can be a costly mistake. especially if he suddenly cynos in a few caps ... or as a friend of mine said in a battleship, when suddenly tackled by a lone frig.. and a dozen of his friends decloaked and bombed him.. oh shit!
8 min of EVE combat ... What you really see here is that in a complete and well designed game like EVE everyone plays and everyone contributes…….And everyone has fun.
Ok thanks for showing me this.
Up to this point in time I actually thought that combat EVE takes more skill than everyone targeting the exact same target. Definitely not the type of game I am looking for.
That being said I envy those who find this entertaining, they have a game to play and I dont ...
Small gang warfare is wee bit better but I know exactly how you feel.
So you don't focus fire in other pvp games? Btw Qazyman that video made the hairs on my neck stand up. truely epic shit.
I have no experience of WoW's PvP but I have a hunch you're slightly dramatic. I believe that even WoW, as gear centric it may be, has plenty of player skill factors contributing to the outcome of PvP.
Level is the primary attribute that defines win or loss. Gear is the second most important. Player skill (ability to play one's character effectively) runs a distant third. As conflict mostly exists in preset matches with predefined starting points on static maps, things like pre-planning, strategy and positioning have very little impact on victory. The impact of level and gear on outcome in WOW is very dramatic, not slightly.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I have no experience of WoW's PvP but I have a hunch you're slightly dramatic. I believe that even WoW, as gear centric it may be, has plenty of player skill factors contributing to the outcome of PvP.
Level is the primary attribute that defines win or loss. Gear is the second most important. Player skill (ability to play one's character effectively) runs a distant third. As conflict mostly exists in preset matches with predefined starting points on static maps, things like pre-planning, strategy and positioning have very little impact on victory. The impact of level and gear on outcome in WOW is very dramatic, not slightly.
i would even go so far as to say that in games like WoW the only factors defining outcome are gear and level, the players actual skill is largely irrelevant, one of the reasons i prefer Eve to WoW, though i still play WoW because, if you ignore the pvp its actually a fun game....Eve is the other way around, the most defining factor is player skill/knowledge, equipment and levels (such as they are) will help, but won't make a bad player a good one.
though they will make a really good player a major nuisance factor in any engagement
Comments
OK, this is a fundamental flaw in your thinking.
FPS's are all about providing people with a totally balanced set of tools to PVP with and it is more or less totally up to player skill to prevail in combat.
MMORPG's are all about character progression, and they purposely provide tools to augment your actual skill by rewarding the player for either time spent playing the game, time spent paying for the game (as in EVE), gear that you acquire through raiding, cash shops or just plain luck etc.
I know some folks don't like this aspect of the genre, but its never going to change, and is in fact one reason why many of us play them vs FPS.
EVE isn't unique in this regard, it just chooses to reward people for playing longer rather than playing more. (from a skill training perspective only of course). I love the feature, others loath it, just a matter of whether you have a lot of available time to play a game.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
No. You're still stuck in the SP = levels = higher level always beats lower level mindset. I guess you're just not capable of conceiving a game that doesn't follow this linear progession.
Yep, some people will always do the SP=levels=win math. They know that in WoW (or whatever linear progression game) a level 40 warrior has absolutely no chance vs a level 60 mage, so it must be that way in Eve too.
Truth is, in Eve, after you've played/trained a few months, victory or defeat depends on what ship are you aboard in a certain moment. A scissor-class ship and 5 months SP will still defeat a paper-class ship no matter how many skill-years the other player invested. On Eve, knowledge is power. On Eve, there is no "better ship". You will never have a "final ship", that can face every situation.
Exactly! Very well put.
Combine that with the game knowledge of how to fit your ship to suit it's role, the intelligence to pick fights you can win, the social skills to attract wingmen who can cover your weak spots, and this talk of "permanent disadvantage" is shown as the nonsense that it is.
Give me liberty or give me lasers
No. You're still stuck in the SP = levels = higher level always beats lower level mindset. I guess you're just not capable of conceiving a game that doesn't follow this linear progession.
Yep, some people will always do the SP=levels=win math. They know that in WoW (or whatever linear progression game) a level 40 warrior has absolutely no chance vs a level 60 mage, so it must be that way in Eve too.
Truth is, in Eve, after you've played/trained a few months, victory or defeat depends on what ship are you aboard in a certain moment. A scissor-class ship and 5 months SP will still defeat a paper-class ship no matter how many skill-years the other player invested. On Eve, knowledge is power. On Eve, there is no "better ship". You will never have a "final ship", that can face every situation.
Exactly! Very well put.
Combine that with the game knowledge of how to fit your ship to suit it's role, the intelligence to pick fights you can win, the social skills to attract wingmen who can cover your weak spots, and this talk of "permanent disadvantage" is shown as the nonsense that it is.
I agree as well.
I have been playing since last spring and I run lowsec missions with 4 year vets.
I am effective and act as their point/recon vessel with my covert ops ships.
My job is to get them into a sector without gettign killed, so I guide them in and out and torpedo the enemy when called upon.
I could never do that in a linear leveling MMO like WOW for instance.
I ususally get left to my own devices in a guild full of max levels as I work my way up tho their level.
EVE is the way MMOs need to be done across the board.
Ok this line confuses me, it sounds like you want a game where all characters are equal and theres no progression. I honestly can't think of an mmo that doesn't have this.
Rest of the MMOs or "traditional MMOs" have a level cap where everyone is equal. You can always grind the same equipment. In short: You can catch up. Mentor systems and the like promote this fact.
It seems that Kyleran is the only one who truelly understands (No, it is not a "flaw". It is just the way I think).
Some of you are just picking and choosing, ignoring some sentences I've wrote down. I have not made the statement:
more SP = win
That was you. Read what I write and stop making ridiculous assumptions and connections.
I've already wrote a response to your examples of "player A beats player B's [ship X] with a mere [ship Y] and let me repeat it:
... Sure a veteran (player skill) will beat some newb (player skill) flying a T2 ship but when their players' (player)skill is more closely matched, the T2 ship is a non-(player)skill advantage.
This extends to the fact that the veteran(SP) player who can choose from multiple ships, as opposed to the few ships the rookie(SP) can fly, has an advantage because he/she can choose the ship that is the very best to every situation. ...
Maybe now that I have made it easier to understand, you see that I make the difference between player skill and character skill, and where I make it.
To the one who said that in WoW lvl60 beats lvl40 character - d'uh. And a thanatos beats riftter. If you want to play the card that many rifters can beat one thanatos with good teamwork - so can many lvl40s beat the lvl60.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
Just taking this point, I have yet to hear one player say to another (except in the context of friendly "duels"):
"Hey, wait right there for a sec while I dock and get a better ship"
The advantage of having options seem to be mitigated, to a reasonable extent (imo), by the mechanics in which you excercise them.
-mklinic
"Do something right, no one remembers.
Do something wrong, no one forgets"
-from No One Remembers by In Strict Confidence
Just taking this point, I have yet to hear one player say to another (except in the context of friendly "duels"):
"Hey, wait right there for a sec while I dock and get a better ship"
The advantage of having options seem to be mitigated, to a reasonable extent (imo), by the mechanics in which you excercise them.
Ever heard of scouts and/or metagame? Surely I don't need to explain how these things are related to this situation.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
Yes, and that goes back to the numerous people saying that a player, surrounding themselves with complementing players, stand the best chance at success.
Now if you are saying that I could scout the person, run back how ever many jumps to get my combat ship and then see them in the same exact place I left them, I would think that is impractical to expect and I would be very lucky if that actually did happen.
So, perhaps a rephrase; in my opinion, the game mechanics do a decent job of mitigating the disparity between player SP and the potential for advantage that having more options provides the more senior player.
-mklinic
"Do something right, no one remembers.
Do something wrong, no one forgets"
-from No One Remembers by In Strict Confidence
Situations change in comabt constantly with no opportunity to go and change ship.
Combat is combat is combat and anything can happen at any time regardless of what ship you are in, even if you are a vetran and have the best ship it can still end in tears, check out the thread titled
Post YOUR best or worst moments in EVE.
Found here http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/272002/Post-YOUR-best-or-worst-moments-in-EVE.html
Where a 200m isk command ship dies to mining barges.
Point being, the ship you fly can help but is not a given, like the power of a level 60 WoW warrior, and i dont think even a hundred level 40s can take him down as there will just resist resist resist all over the shop.
Yes, and that goes back to the numerous people saying that a player, surrounding themselves with complementing players, stand the best chance at success.
Now if you are saying that I could scout the person, run back how ever many jumps to get my combat ship and then see them in the same exact place I left them, I would think that is impractical to expect and I would be very lucky if that actually did happen.
So, perhaps a rephrase; in my opinion, the game mechanics do a decent job of mitigating the disparity between player SP and the potential for advantage that having more options provides the more senior player.
Nah, scouting yourself and then switching is idiotic. Someone else scouting while you are in POS or station is far more practical. Then there's the "we know they're going to fly these ships thing..." But yes, you are correct the advantage is minor - but by no means nonexistent. It is subjective how minor that advantage is. Best PvP games I've played haven't had this kind of "feature" - no advantage to the older character whatsoever.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
Just taking this point, I have yet to hear one player say to another (except in the context of friendly "duels"):
"Hey, wait right there for a sec while I dock and get a better ship"
The advantage of having options seem to be mitigated, to a reasonable extent (imo), by the mechanics in which you excercise them.
Ever heard of scouts and/or metagame? Surely I don't need to explain how these things are related to this situation.
Scouting and gaining intel is not a Vet only thing. A five month old player could also do that and switch to a appropriate ship.
Vets arent the only ones capable of switching ships and gaining an advantage.
I still would like to know what a vet would do to counter someone like me. I mean I fly two different racial HAC lines, AFs, BC and a number of Cruisers. He's going to bring a super capital to low sec? nope. A BS? LOL! ive decimated BS pilots. Faction ships? seriously....
You act as if the game offers an unlimited number of ships to train in. I said this before around my one year point i was already flying Hacs, AFs, Cruisers and BCs solidly with one faction and now at my second year Im flying two factions (Gallente, Minmatar). I don't see this advantage that your talking about.
God... I feel like im having a 1v1 balance discussion with an ex-wow player just trying Eve. Seriously? I think you've spent way too much time dreaming about pvp, waiting in empire playing with your little EFT dreaming of big ships like a level 1 newb in WoW dreaming of a high armor set.
This game doesn't work that way.
Playing: Rift, LotRO
Waiting on: GW2, BP
Yes, and that goes back to the numerous people saying that a player, surrounding themselves with complementing players, stand the best chance at success.
Now if you are saying that I could scout the person, run back how ever many jumps to get my combat ship and then see them in the same exact place I left them, I would think that is impractical to expect and I would be very lucky if that actually did happen.
So, perhaps a rephrase; in my opinion, the game mechanics do a decent job of mitigating the disparity between player SP and the potential for advantage that having more options provides the more senior player.
Nah, scouting yourself and then switching is idiotic. Someone else scouting while you are in POS or station is far more practical. Then there's the "we know they're going to fly these ships thing..." But yes, you are correct the advantage is minor - but by no means nonexistent. It is subjective how minor that advantage is. Best PvP games I've played haven't had this kind of "feature" - no advantage to the older character whatsoever.
Oh stop we had uber power gamers that ruled the day in DAoC that a new player could never catch due to that persons skill, social ties and generally having access to stuff you just couldnt touch as a newer player due to those ties.
WoW isnt a real pvp game so we need to stop trying to compare it to eve. A game like Shadowbane was also like that. older players owned the game and you were basically a slave to them no matter how hard you tried.
Advantages of older gamers is nothing new but through group play a new player could atleast be useful in Eve something I couldnt say for DAoC and SB.
Why don't you just stick to level capped games if you want total fairness when it comes to skills/specs? Eve is the way it is and the door is that way---------> If you dont like it.
Playing: Rift, LotRO
Waiting on: GW2, BP
Yeah, I was generally trying to paint the "scout yourself" idea as a bit absurd, but more so to underscore that, as rockgod99 had said, the preferred scenario is not a "vet only" advantage situations.
That said, there is no secret that the game has time based training and, in the most generic sense, this would indicate that someone who has subscribed for a longer time has more skill points. There are some caveats in the SP/hour rates based on how you've spec'd and what you are training relative to your attributes, but as a general rule I think we can agree on that point, right?
So, the point seem to be that the greater SP affords some advantage, even if it is just the advantage of having more options, to the older player. Sure, I can agree that the older player has more options and I can understand where you see that as an advantage, but I maintain the belief that the advantage is adequatley managed by the game mechanics. I specifically spoke to your example only because, much like your views on many others' examples, I didn't think it was very representative of an in game situation.
In the end, I don't see us changing each other's perceptions. From what I gather, you are currently playing, so I hope that you are at least enjoying yourself despite our different views. In the end, it is a matter of whether you are getting your (or at least someone's) $15 worth
.. Fly safe.
-mklinic
"Do something right, no one remembers.
Do something wrong, no one forgets"
-from No One Remembers by In Strict Confidence
Oh god... I feel like Rockgod deliberately misses my meaning on purpose.
Stop making assumptions. No, I haven't played WoW. Not every gamer outside of Eve is the same.
"Real PvP" is subjective. -> I don't consider ganking "real PvP".
I don't know how can I have a rational argument with you. You're very hostile and take things way too personal.
Every game, and I do mean every game, has flaws or things I dislike in it. It doesn't mean I should stop playing them altogether. No game is perfect - not one.
Maybe you didn't find personal ties in other games useless but hey... I get to train PvP in GW with the world champions so maybe it was total waste of time. /sarcasm
You can have benefit from social ties in any game. It is subjective how useful that is.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
Yeah, I was generally trying to paint the "scout yourself" idea as a bit absurd, but more so to underscore that, as rockgod99 had said, the preferred scenario is not a "vet only" advantage situations.
That said, there is no secret that the game has time based training and, in the most generic sense, this would indicate that someone who has subscribed for a longer time has more skill points. There are some caveats in the SP/hour rates based on how you've spec'd and what you are training relative to your attributes, but as a general rule I think we can agree on that point, right?
So, the point seem to be that the greater SP affords some advantage, even if it is just the advantage of having more options, to the older player. Sure, I can agree that the older player has more options and I can understand where you see that as an advantage, but I maintain the belief that the advantage is adequatley managed by the game mechanics. I specifically spoke to your example only because, much like your views on many others' examples, I didn't think it was very representative of an in game situation.
In the end, I don't see us changing each other's perceptions. From what I gather, you are currently playing, so I hope that you are at least enjoying yourself despite our different views. In the end, it is a matter of whether you are getting your (or at least someone's) $15 worth
.. Fly safe.
I think I've found few Eve players worth arguing with.
Thanks for changing my previous views.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
Yeah, I was generally trying to paint the "scout yourself" idea as a bit absurd, but more so to underscore that, as rockgod99 had said, the preferred scenario is not a "vet only" advantage situations.
That said, there is no secret that the game has time based training and, in the most generic sense, this would indicate that someone who has subscribed for a longer time has more skill points. There are some caveats in the SP/hour rates based on how you've spec'd and what you are training relative to your attributes, but as a general rule I think we can agree on that point, right?
So, the point seem to be that the greater SP affords some advantage, even if it is just the advantage of having more options, to the older player. Sure, I can agree that the older player has more options and I can understand where you see that as an advantage, but I maintain the belief that the advantage is adequatley managed by the game mechanics. I specifically spoke to your example only because, much like your views on many others' examples, I didn't think it was very representative of an in game situation.
In the end, I don't see us changing each other's perceptions. From what I gather, you are currently playing, so I hope that you are at least enjoying yourself despite our different views. In the end, it is a matter of whether you are getting your (or at least someone's) $15 worth
.. Fly safe.
This is why im going back and forth with this guy. His complaint isnt something that actually matters in game.
When I think of Vet advantages I think of them having more experience in game and better social ties. I mean wanna complain about an advantage? Those vets in massive power blocks are damn near unstoppable and it has nothing to do with their Sp total.
Maybe he sees this disadvantage since hes a solo player? I roam around with quite a few corpies in low sec and I havent run into these so called disadvantages that make Eve less of a pvp game.
Playing: Rift, LotRO
Waiting on: GW2, BP
Ok this line confuses me, it sounds like you want a game where all characters are equal and theres no progression. I honestly can't think of an mmo that doesn't have this.
1) Rest of the MMOs or "traditional MMOs" have a level cap where everyone is equal. You can always grind the same equipment. In short: You can catch up. Mentor systems and the like promote this fact.
2) It seems that Kyleran is the only one who truelly understands (No, it is not a "flaw". It is just the way I think).
3) To the one who said that in WoW lvl60 beats lvl40 character - d'uh. And a thanatos beats riftter. If you want to play the card that many rifters can beat one thanatos with good teamwork - so can many lvl40s beat the lvl60.
1) Have you ever actually "caught up" to the best players in any MMORPG ever? Sure, I've matched them in levels, but the hardcore have always had far better gear than me no matter what.
Saying something is theoretically possible isn't really practical and comparing it to EVE isn't valid because when it comes to flying a Vagabond, I am physically equal to any other player in the game. My stats are all at 5, I can afford the best modules to fly it should I chose to. In the right combat situations I can win with that Vagabond depending on my own personal skill, nothing more. I say in a game like WOW this will never happen to 99% of the players.
2) I realize that 'flaw' has a negative connotation, but when the way you think goes against the core convention of almost all MMORPG's (that they are not like FPS's and player inequality is inherit in their design) you are plainly wrong, and that is not an opinion.
Now there are games like Planetside and GW's that do provide a more balanced experience like you desire, but most folks agree those games don't really even belong in the genre because of the balanced, FPS nature of their combat models. (we tend to refer to them as MMOFPS games). EVE is certainly not one of those. You can dislike the model, but you can't really challenge the design its just the way these games usually are. (and how most of us want them to be)
3) For some reason WOW and many other games seem to think there is a need to make it so players (espeically casters) should not be able to land a blow on a higher level character past a certain range. I play Aion now and it is wildly frustrating to me and my son that our Cleric/Mage combo cannot defeat a single player who is 5 levels above us because 75-90% of our damage/CC spells totallybounce off.
Now in DAOC, 20 level 30 characters could take down a 50 (esp if they were melee) but I haven't seen many games since that permit it. (stupid mechanic, but that's a discussion for another day). So I don't believe in WOW an army of 40's could beat a single 80. I don't think they could even hit him.
Contrast this with EVE, I can be a six month old player in a Raven and my faction fit Torpedos are going to hit damn hard against the right target and I don't have to fear being useless in a fight. Heck, a one month old player in a Rifter can be death to any other frigate flyer for the most part, as long as he has the skills to fight it effectively. (they'd destroy me, because I can't fly frigs worth a damn)
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
The importance of Social ties are subjective in games all about group warfare? really?
Playing: Rift, LotRO
Waiting on: GW2, BP
Eve online is open for everyone and you can do anything you want in the game, of course vets will have somewhat an advantage since they can pretty much fly any ship they want ( i can ).
But if you start out new and stick to 1 race / faction training , then you can become proficient at that within a few months.
List of SOE lies
Ok thanks for showing me this.
Up to this point in time I actually thought that combat EVE takes more skill than everyone targeting the exact same target. Definitely not the type of game I am looking for.
That being said I envy those who find this entertaining, they have a game to play and I dont ...
1) Have you ever actually "caught up" to the best players in any MMORPG ever? Sure, I've matched them in levels, but the hardcore have always had far better gear than me no matter what.
Saying something is theoretically possible isn't really practical and comparing it to EVE isn't valid because when it comes to flying a Vagabond, I am physically equal to any other player in the game. My stats are all at 5, I can afford the best modules to fly it should I chose to. In the right combat situations I can win with that Vagabond depending on my own personal skill, nothing more. I say in a game like WOW this will never happen to 99% of the players.
2) I realize that 'flaw' has a negative connotation, but when the way you think goes against the core convention of almost all MMORPG's (that they are not like FPS's and player inequality is inherit in their design) you are plainly wrong, and that is not an opinion.
Now there are games like Planetside and GW's that do provide a more balanced experience like you desire, but most folks agree those games don't really even belong in the genre because of the balanced, FPS nature of their combat models. (we tend to refer to them as MMOFPS games). EVE is certainly not one of those. You can dislike the model, but you can't really challenge the design its just the way these games usually are. (and how most of us want them to be)
3) For some reason WOW and many other games seem to think there is a need to make it so players (espeically casters) should not be able to land a blow on a higher level character past a certain range. I play Aion now and it is wildly frustrating to me and my son that our Cleric/Mage combo cannot defeat a single player who is 5 levels above us because 75-90% of our damage/CC spells totallybounce off.
Now in DAOC, 20 level 30 characters could take down a 50 (esp if they were melee) but I haven't seen many games since that permit it. (stupid mechanic, but that's a discussion for another day). So I don't believe in WOW an army of 40's could beat a single 80. I don't think they could even hit him.
Contrast this with EVE, I can be a six month old player in a Raven and my faction fit Torpedos are going to hit damn hard against the right target and I don't have to fear being useless in a fight. Heck, a one month old player in a Rifter can be death to any other frigate flyer for the most part, as long as he has the skills to fight it effectively. (they'd destroy me, because I can't fly frigs worth a damn)
1) Yes, I have. Both in terms of character power and player skill. It is discouraging that something like it is not possible even in theory. As for the vagabond example, I have no experience of WoW's PvP but I have a hunch you're slightly dramatic. I believe that even WoW, as gear centric it may be, has plenty of player skill factors contributing to the outcome of PvP.
2) Like you said, so far most of these games have had imbalanced PvP, but is it really one of the definining factors of MMORPG? I refuse to believe so. GW was a CORPG according to the devs but by all means it played very much like any other MMORPG. Now that GW2 will be a MMORPG, will it have imbalanced PvP? -No, the devs have stated that the PvP remain balanced. There may not even be a level cap but at some point your levels will have very little to no effect on your character's power. The level serves as an e-pen-.
Even WAR buffed (or tried to balance) weaker characters in PvP. I don't think it's the only one.
3) We're getting stuck in examples, good and bad ones (choose a game and level gap, which makes it impossible). The idea still remains: Many small can bring down few big.
It is Eve's merit that a new player can feel he/she is contributing - even if in reality it is next to nothing. If there would be a strict limit to players who can be in a fleet or in a battle. Then all new characters are harmful.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
Ok thanks for showing me this.
Up to this point in time I actually thought that combat EVE takes more skill than everyone targeting the exact same target. Definitely not the type of game I am looking for.
That being said I envy those who find this entertaining, they have a game to play and I dont ...
Small gang warfare is wee bit better but I know exactly how you feel.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
1) Have you ever actually "caught up" to the best players in any MMORPG ever? Sure, I've matched them in levels, but the hardcore have always had far better gear than me no matter what.
Saying something is theoretically possible isn't really practical and comparing it to EVE isn't valid because when it comes to flying a Vagabond, I am physically equal to any other player in the game. My stats are all at 5, I can afford the best modules to fly it should I chose to. In the right combat situations I can win with that Vagabond depending on my own personal skill, nothing more. I say in a game like WOW this will never happen to 99% of the players.
2) I realize that 'flaw' has a negative connotation, but when the way you think goes against the core convention of almost all MMORPG's (that they are not like FPS's and player inequality is inherit in their design) you are plainly wrong, and that is not an opinion.
Now there are games like Planetside and GW's that do provide a more balanced experience like you desire, but most folks agree those games don't really even belong in the genre because of the balanced, FPS nature of their combat models. (we tend to refer to them as MMOFPS games). EVE is certainly not one of those. You can dislike the model, but you can't really challenge the design its just the way these games usually are. (and how most of us want them to be)
3) For some reason WOW and many other games seem to think there is a need to make it so players (espeically casters) should not be able to land a blow on a higher level character past a certain range. I play Aion now and it is wildly frustrating to me and my son that our Cleric/Mage combo cannot defeat a single player who is 5 levels above us because 75-90% of our damage/CC spells totallybounce off.
Now in DAOC, 20 level 30 characters could take down a 50 (esp if they were melee) but I haven't seen many games since that permit it. (stupid mechanic, but that's a discussion for another day). So I don't believe in WOW an army of 40's could beat a single 80. I don't think they could even hit him.
Contrast this with EVE, I can be a six month old player in a Raven and my faction fit Torpedos are going to hit damn hard against the right target and I don't have to fear being useless in a fight. Heck, a one month old player in a Rifter can be death to any other frigate flyer for the most part, as long as he has the skills to fight it effectively. (they'd destroy me, because I can't fly frigs worth a damn)
1) Yes, I have. Both in terms of character power and player skill. It is discouraging that something like it is not possible even in theory. As for the vagabond example, I have no experience of WoW's PvP but I have a hunch you're slightly dramatic. I believe that even WoW, as gear centric it may be, has plenty of player skill factors contributing to the outcome of PvP.
2) Like you said, so far most of these games have had imbalanced PvP, but is it really one of the definining factors of MMORPG? I refuse to believe so. GW was a CORPG according to the devs but by all means it played very much like any other MMORPG. Now that GW2 will be a MMORPG, will it have imbalanced PvP? -No, the devs have stated that the PvP remain balanced. There may not even be a level cap but at some point your levels will have very little to no effect on your character's power. The level serves as an e-pen-.
Even WAR buffed (or tried to balance) weaker characters in PvP. I don't think it's the only one.
3) We're getting stuck in examples, good and bad ones (choose a game and level gap, which makes it impossible). The idea still remains: Many small can bring down few big.
It is Eve's merit that a new player can feel he/she is contributing - even if in reality it is next to nothing. If there would be a strict limit to players who can be in a fleet or in a battle. Then all new characters are harmful.
a new player in Eve makes a genuine contribution, it certainly isnt next to nothing, i think you underestimate the importance of fleets, Eve, is not a single player game, its not a case of 1v1, you might test a setup on your ship in 1v1 with a corpmate but thats all, and imposing limits on fleets... is crazy.. Eve isnt a case of jumping in the biggest ship you have and going to attack something (good way to lose that ship imo!) even in roams you need a good mix of ships, and understimating even a frigate can be a costly mistake. especially if he suddenly cynos in a few caps
... or as a friend of mine said in a battleship, when suddenly tackled by a lone frig.. and a dozen of his friends decloaked and bombed him.. oh shit! 
Ok thanks for showing me this.
Up to this point in time I actually thought that combat EVE takes more skill than everyone targeting the exact same target. Definitely not the type of game I am looking for.
That being said I envy those who find this entertaining, they have a game to play and I dont ...
Small gang warfare is wee bit better but I know exactly how you feel.
So you don't focus fire in other pvp games? Btw Qazyman that video made the hairs on my neck stand up. truely epic shit.
Playing: Rift, LotRO
Waiting on: GW2, BP
Level is the primary attribute that defines win or loss. Gear is the second most important. Player skill (ability to play one's character effectively) runs a distant third. As conflict mostly exists in preset matches with predefined starting points on static maps, things like pre-planning, strategy and positioning have very little impact on victory. The impact of level and gear on outcome in WOW is very dramatic, not slightly.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Level is the primary attribute that defines win or loss. Gear is the second most important. Player skill (ability to play one's character effectively) runs a distant third. As conflict mostly exists in preset matches with predefined starting points on static maps, things like pre-planning, strategy and positioning have very little impact on victory. The impact of level and gear on outcome in WOW is very dramatic, not slightly.
i would even go so far as to say that in games like WoW the only factors defining outcome are gear and level, the players actual skill is largely irrelevant, one of the reasons i prefer Eve to WoW, though i still play WoW because, if you ignore the pvp its actually a fun game....Eve is the other way around, the most defining factor is player skill/knowledge, equipment and levels (such as they are) will help, but won't make a bad player a good one.
though they will make a really good player a major nuisance factor in any engagement