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a fresh new topic..........THE GRIND!
Seeing this topic come up in so many posts…pretty much all of them. It’s got to be THE hot-button issue right now in Darkfall.
I, for one, really don’t get it.
Before I get into why, let me say that there’s a good chance I’m the most casual player posting on this forum. In fact I’m not even subbed right now due to a busy schedule between work and family…no time for games. When I do sub again, it will be when I actually get maybe a few free hours a week to play again. (yes, a week, not a day). So my point is spare me the “but I don’t live in my mommy’s basement playing video games 24/7”…because I’m pretty much the opposite of that.
So, having said that, and despite my ultra-casual play style, I can safely say that if Darkfall didn’t have a lengthy character progression aspect to the game I wouldn’t be remotely interested in playing. Isn’t this one of the pillars of mmorpgs…character progression? Wouldn’t the game essentially be ruined if you could max out your character and be battling 1-year vets on even footing after a week or two? What’s the point in even playing the game in that case? Do you people who speak negatively of the grind not value character progression in these games? I’m really just trying to understand your rationale. To me the “grind” is actually “playing the game”. It’s progressing your character, making him more powerful via stats, skills and items as you make your way in the world. This has to be one of the carrots always in front of me or I lose interest quickly once my character stops developing (ie reaches “end game”).
Are people just jealous of those players who “have more” than me, even though they’ve put in 100 or 1000 more hours on their character? I don’t get this either but I’ve seen it a lot. I played EQ for 7 years. Never maxed out my character. And loved every second of it. I knew there were people that were ahead of me in terms of stats/skills/items and always would be. So what? To me that’s part of what made the world so real, so complex and so fun to be a part of. There were many different levels of players because of the rather lengthy character progression and it was awesome. I could see someone walk past me with some super high-level kick-ass weapon from some place I’d never been and probably never would and be in awe. Conversely I could have lower level players drooling over my ranger epics while standing in the EC tunnel. These many different layers of player groupings gave the world life, helped a ton to stabilize the economy, and again just made the world a fun, thriving and realistic place to live in. Would it have been the same if everyone in EQ was level 50 with all the best stuff? Not even close. In that case the economy suffers, the world becomes extremely boring, and to me at least the game just becomes completely stale and much less interesting.
I remember reading a post not too long ago about one of, if not the best, players in Darkfall (Valroth I think). The post was about how this guy, who had essentially maxed his character and was one of the major bad-asses on the server had lost a lot of his urge to log in because his character had essentially stopped progressing. He was very powerful but so what…without that carrot to keep improving your character he had lost much interest in the game. For me it would be the exact same way, which is why I would hate to be battling vets on even footing within a week or two. At that point my interest in the game would lessen and once I stopped progressing it would essentially be over for me and Darkfall.
Sorry for the wall of text and thanks for listening. I just don’t understand this mentality of hating the “grind” of a game and wanting to be maxed out in a week or two and at the top of the game. To me that = a very boring game when character progression stops being a part of it less than a month in. Where does this mentality come from? Is this part of what WoW has done to the genre? Do most of you people on that side of the fence come from playing WoW or other similar games? What keeps you playing after your character maxes out in a couple weeks? Why don’t you just play some of those online FPS out there where you don’t have to worry about any grind and everyone starts out on equal footing?
One more thing, I played Vanguard for over a year. Loved everything about the “idea” behind the game, figured it would be the spiritual successor to EQ. It was a rocky launch obviously but I still liked the game…but it all started going downhill for me when they upped the leveling to warp speeds to try to bring in that market so people could quickly get to the end-game (which sadly didn’t exist…but that’s another story). To me, the affect of cranking up the leveling speeds greatly diminished any achievements I had in the game. Beat a hard quest and got a great reward? Great…but you’re going to out-level that reward in 2 weeks anyway so who gives a rats behind…anyway that was the beginning of the end for me. I guess my point is that this is another great reason why quick character progression is bad…for me all it does is greatly diminish any achievements my character might have in the game. Would getting my epics in EQ been such a great accomplishment that I recall fondly to this day if I had outleveled those epics in a month instead of using them for the next 2 years? No, not even close.
Ok, I doubt anyone even gets this far but I had to get that off my chest! Carry on.
Comments
Ugh... another major oversimplification of the argument.
No one is saying that you should be able to max out your character in a week or two. Only the fanboys are claiming that when they reply to posts regarding the heinous grind.
We are simply saying that it should not take any longer to reach even footing in this game than it does in any other PvP-oriented title. The fact of the matter is that Darkfall takes considerably longer to progress to that point than most other MMOs. Many of us find that ridiculous because a PvP oriented game is supposed to be about the PvP and individual player skill, not the synthetic character skill/stat advantage given by many many many months of tedious grinding.
In a PvP game, players will still "have more" than other players by playing longer. They will have more money, gear, etc. and better understanding of the game world. Their guilds will control more territory and command more respect simply because they have played longer and achieved more. Why do they also need to have a major advantage over newer players for such an EXTREMELY long time in addition to these things? I really don't understand why that is necessary in this type of game.
Your examples of EQ and Vanguard are not relevant at all in this discussion since both of those games were about the furthest thing there is from a true PvP game. EQ and Vanguard were just huge PvE level treadmills with a gigantic grinds. Most people sign up for Darkfall because they want to get involved (and be truly competitive) in the huge battles and the political meta-game, not because they want to grind stats and skills for years.
It sounds to me like all you want in a game is a huge grind... if so, I see why Darkfall is so appealing to you. Unfortunately it isn't appealing to anyone who loves PvP but loathes gigantic grinds.
I read your post but I have to disagree.
For starters, MOST people that want to either reduce the grind or decrease the gap between veteran and new players do NOT want you to reach max, or anywhere close to it, in a "week or two". Myself, for example, think that you should be able to stand your own against a veteran, even if you lose most of the fights, after 3 months of playing casually, something that is NOT the case at all right now.
I made a thread about increasing stat gain that got over 700 replies, because at the time I thought that simply increasing stat gain would resolve the issue. Now, I have changed my views to support this suggestion here which does not decrease the grind or time it takes to reach max AT ALL, meaning that that character progression you're talking about remains the same length of time. Instead, it changes how stats affect your character, giving your character more benefits early on during progression, and less as you get towards max.
I think that this suggestion would make Darkfall much better for any new player joining the game (and even players in game right now) without decreasing the grind or decreasing the time it takes to reach max level, and without taking away what veterans have worked for.
We need some type of specialization skills where you can have only a few of them, and make prestige classes from them, so you can get to a cap of a certain class, but can never max it all out and use it at the same time.
Kasmos- w/out spending too much time delving into your suggestion…I have to admit at first glance it seems like something that might work to keep a long character progression in the game yet reduce the time it takes a newer player to become competitive with vets.
Having said that, I see a couple issues right off the bat:
• One of the things I mentioned in my original post is that having your player base spread out at various levels of progression is very healthy for the economy. While that idea you support might help people become more competitive more quickly won’t it still have the effect of grouping all players more quickly into that upper “end-game” tier in terms of overall power? To me that means they will also be essentially grouped into the same “item sphere” (for lack of a better term) which again would have a negative impact on the economy. You’d be lessening the impact that those lower and mid-level items have and essentially making them worthless much quicker in your efforts to get the newer players more quickly towards the right end of the power spectrum. I understand you’d still have a long character progression but by lessening the impact of character progression as time goes on it seems you’re still going to have the same effect of making those mid-level and lower items basically junk much more quickly and the economy would suffer due to everyone reaching the higher parts of the power spectrum more quickly. Hopefully that makes sense but I’m not sure I worded that all that great…anway.
• It almost seems kind of like a mirage in a way…sure you are still progressing your character but in terms of power it’s almost not even going to be noticeable at the upper ends in order for this idea (making players more competitive with vets) to work. For people who play these games in part for character progression that’s almost as bad as the original thought of just leveling people real fast and maxing out in a month or two.
I don’t know. I can see the possibilities of this idea but it almost seems like it’s a way of doing exactly what I wouldn’t want in a game (maxxing out in a month or two and minimizing character progression) but hiding that fact by still having very slight almost meaningless character progression (if indeed you want the newer players to be truly competitive with vets) the longer you play.
Maybe it can be done with the right balance, but that balance would be very difficult to achieve I think.
In all MMOs I play I never care how long it takes me to reach any milestone as long as there is something original I can do in between. If I can do 30 somewhat creative quests 30 minutes each, I do not consider it a grind. When I have to spend the same amount of time, 15 hours, standing atop a goblin spawn, and killing them one by one, I do care and quickly quit.
SF
and one more thing...at any rate we just have a fundamental difference of opinion. I think it would be very bad to be able to play very casually for 3 months and basically be as powerful as a person who's played a year.
IMO you should be able to stand against other people who've played casually for 3 (or 4 or 5) months, and have a good advantage over people who've played half that, but you should not be able to stand against a hardened vet after 3 casual months.
one more thing i'd like to add, people forget that in terms of large-scale battles a relative newbie can absolutely have in impact after...really just a couple weeks. Work on your ranged skills, they dont' take that long to power up to decent levels. That's something about this game people either forget or fail to acknowledge. You don't have to play for a year to have in impact and partcipate in large-scale battles. it's really more the small group/1 on 1 stuff we are talking about here. Will you be the world war 2 hero and win the day?...probably not. But you sure as hell can plink a lot of enemies and make it hurt. I think this is an area where Darkfall really shines and the devs did a great job of not requiring someone to play a year to have in impact in of the games specialties - large-scale battles.
Kasmos- w/out spending too much time delving into your suggestion…I have to admit at first glance it seems like something that might work to keep a long character progression in the game yet reduce the time it takes a newer player to become competitive with vets.
Having said that, I see a couple issues right off the bat:
• One of the things I mentioned in my original post is that having your player base spread out at various levels of progression is very healthy for the economy. While that idea you support might help people become more competitive more quickly won’t it still have the effect of grouping all players more quickly into that upper “end-game” tier in terms of overall power? To me that means they will also be essentially grouped into the same “item sphere” (for lack of a better term) which again would have a negative impact on the economy. You’d be lessening the impact that those lower and mid-level items have and essentially making them worthless much quicker in your efforts to get the newer players more quickly towards the right end of the power spectrum. I understand you’d still have a long character progression but by lessening the impact of character progression as time goes on it seems you’re still going to have the same effect of making those mid-level and lower items basically junk much more quickly and the economy would suffer due to everyone reaching the higher parts of the power spectrum more quickly. Hopefully that makes sense but I’m not sure I worded that all that great…anway.
• It almost seems kind of like a mirage in a way…sure you are still progressing your character but in terms of power it’s almost not even going to be noticeable at the upper ends in order for this idea (making players more competitive with vets) to work. For people who play these games in part for character progression that’s almost as bad as the original thought of just leveling people real fast and maxing out in a month or two.
I don’t know. I can see the possibilities of this idea but it almost seems like it’s a way of doing exactly what I wouldn’t want in a game (maxxing out in a month or two and minimizing character progression) but hiding that fact by still having very slight almost meaningless character progression (if indeed you want the newer players to be truly competitive with vets) the longer you play.
Maybe it can be done with the right balance, but that balance would be very difficult to achieve I think.
JordanJax, first of all, thank you for actually being able to have a reasonable, intelligent discussion about this topic. Most people that disagree with ANYONE who wants to reduce the grind or reduce the gap between veterans and new players starts throwing out phrases like, "Go back to WoW carebear", "If you want to play Counterstrike, it's that way", "You guys just want instant gratification and max stats", or my personal favorite, "We don't want Trammel in Darkfall!". All of these statements misconstrue what 99% of the people wanting to decrease the grind/gap actually support, but nonetheless, that's the (rather pathetic I might add) arguments that people will throw around.
Back on topic though, I'd like to address your two concerns, but first would like to say that the actual numbers in that graph I don't agree with, it's the concept that I agree with, and I think by tweaking the numbers a bit, that again it would do wonders for Darkfall not only in new player retention, but also in making PvP more competitive and interesting. But now on to your first concern.
1) Let's say, for arguments sake, that from the moment you start your character in Darkfall you can gain a total of 250 hit points (HP). With the current system, you'd gain that at a linear rate as your stats progress, like what is shown in the first graph.
I'm arguing for the following. Why not have it so that, by playing casually (~15 hours a week) you would get 150-175 of the 250 total hit points within 4 months and the last 75-100 hit points over the course of a year afterward? Trust me, 75-100 hit points is a good 2-3 hits in a PvP battle, and that is CERTAINLY enough to change the outcome of a battle in Darkfall.
So the new player gets a decent chunk of HP after 4 months (~240 hours of playing) but has another year to get the last ~100 HP. To me, that 100 HP is certainly something to work towards (i.e. your carrot on a stick), and DEFINITELY would give an advantage to the veterans that have worked hard for it.
Now, in regards to your gear and equipment argument, in Darkfall you can wear the best armor on day one, so I think your point is moot. People still will be wearing crappy gear because it's less expensive and provides the wearer with less risk, and there will ALWAYS be new people within that first 4 month range that will be needing to wear those kind of armors. Plus, Aventurine has stated that thousands of new items (including new armor/weapons) are about to be introduced into the game.
Onto point number 2.
2) The only thing I can say is look at what I posted in regards to your concern #1. The veterans that have played that extra year after the first ~4 months are definitely going to have an advantage.
They are going to have more money, more sets of armor, more high end weapons, more knowledge of the game, higher skill levels, and more skills then new players. Now, add that extra 100 HP, or 100 mana, or 100 stamina, or higher regen rates, or higher defenses, or faster shooting/swinging, all things that would come with that extra year or so of playing as a veteran, and you add even MORE advantage for the veteran.
I'm interested to hearing your response.
Then don't kill goblins for 15 hours. NO ONE said you had to.
Go kill some other things. Trolls, zombies, skeletons, akathars, Mercians, hive-kin, kobolds.....other new players in enemy starting areas.....
there are plenty of things to kill, and plenty of ways to advance your character without standing at the same spawn grinding.
Ride around and explore. Find some chaos chests and maybe get rich. Learn to mount fight.
There are no quests in Darkfall, but there is plenty to do, even as a new player. Use some imagination.
There are quest at the towns.....and if you want you can visit each starter town and repeat those quest
There are no quests in Darkfall
Do we play the same game haha?
In short,
FACT!
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience"
CS Lewis
And.... Agricola is a PRIME example of the people I'm talking about that misconstrue what 99% of those of us who want to reduce the grind and/or reduce the gap between veterans and new players are suggesting or arguing for.
How about you make an actual argument against what I posted (or actually read it if you haven't)?
There are no quests in Darkfall
Do we play the same game haha?
I don't consider the little n00b tutorial thingies quests, really.
And title quests are also not your usual definition of a "quest". They are simply a way to get titles by doing things that you would normally be doing anyway.
Once you are out and away from the NPC cities, into the "real game", there are no quests.
And it's a good thing.
And.... Agricola is a PRIME example of the people I'm talking about that misconstrue what 99% of those of us who want to reduce the grind and/or reduce the gap between veterans and new players are suggesting or arguing for.
How about you make an actual argument against what I posted (or actually read it if you haven't)?
We've done this 1,000 times already and it's just boring now. You make the same proposal justifying it by saying it'll bring in more players and you link some graph made by a dude using MS paint. I say it looks like an NGE and ask where your evidence is that leads you to believe that making it easier and faster to attain a high level will result in higher player numbers. I go on to point out that in the past every MMORPG that did this has actually lost massive amounts of subscriptions as it made the game mediocre, the loyal playerbase quit and that potential playerbase never materialized. You then fail to answer this but continue to say the same thing and post the same graphs in threads like a broken record. We wait a bit and you leap in on any thread you can and start it all over again.
So Kasmos are you going to post the evidence that shows it will actually bring in a new playerbase and not leave us playing WW2online in a fantasy setting or are you going to ignore the question again because you don't have it? I await your post that fails to answer me with baited breath!
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience"
CS Lewis
Hmm.. I see several assumptions that keep cropping on these boards and which I find quite questionable from my experience. They are a) "Darkfall is a PvP game" and that "PvP can be enjoyable only with fair odds 1v1"
Both are obviously wrong.
a) You don't have to PvP only or PvP at all. The trouble might occasionally find you but you don't have to go looking for it. Darkfall has PvP but it is not all about PvP. Just because it has FFA PvP loot doesn't mean you have to PvP 24/7 and gank/loot everything in sight. Yes, FFA PvP is an uncommon feature these days but it doesn't mean that's all there is in the game.
b) PvP in Darkfall comes in many flavors. If you want to PvP 1v1 with da boys then you have to work for it. If you want to go to war you can do it with a fresh character and play a scout/reviver or just distract enemies. Personally I'm quite new and low-stats but I intend to try some raids into enemy territories and get some sweet crafting mats (I'm getting tired of mining lol) but I'm going to do it with a guildie or two as a badass raiding party, cowardly overwhelming peaceful gatherers by sheer surprise and force of numbers. So.. it's not all about 1v1, lol. There can be plenty of PvP fun available even for newbs.
It's pretty much like EVE lite in those respects.
I always saw the game more as a empire building pvp war game, not a 1v1 thing. Empire building, war stradegies etc.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
We've done this 1,000 times already and it's just boring now. You make the same proposal justifying it by saying it'll bring in more players and you link some graph made by a dude using MS paint. I say it looks like an NGE and ask where your evidence is that leads you to believe that making it easier and faster to attain a high level will result in higher player numbers. I go on to point out that in the past every MMORPG that did this has actually lost massive amounts of subscriptions as it made the game mediocre, the loyal playerbase quit and that potential playerbase never materialized. You then fail to answer this but continue to say the same thing and post the same graphs in threads like a broken record. We wait a bit and you leap in on any thread you can and start it all over again.
So Kasmos are you going to post the evidence that shows it will actually bring in a new playerbase and not leave us playing WW2online in a fantasy setting or are you going to ignore the question again because you don't have it? I await your post that fails to answer me with baited breath!
How about all the polls on the forums that show that the majority of people think that there is an issue?
How about all the threads that go on for hundreds of posts in which PLENTY of people argue that there is an issue?
How about all the people that used to be subscribed that post on the forums saying the grind was one of the biggest reasons (if not the biggest) that they left?
A lot of my real life friends I brought to this game quit because of the intense grind, and some of these kids can from Project Everquest 1999!
A lot of my clanmates quit because of the intense grind.
I mean really, I don't know what you want me to show you. Numbers? You're trying to have me show you evidence with numbers when Aventurine hasn't released ANYTHING. All we can go off of is what we see on the forums and through talking to people in game.
And just look at your quoted post. You say, and I quote, "and not leave us playing WW2online in a fantasy setting", implying that it would turn the game into an FPS. Why would doing what I am proposing turn it into an FPS? The grind would remain THE EXACT SAME, all it would do is get people to a more competitive level in 4 months of casual play.
How in the HELL is that even CLOSE to turning it into an FPS? How about you answer that question for me Agricola?
And hell, you even make fun of the graph because it was made in MS paint. Well SORRY we all can't make ridiculous pictures like you can, not all of us have photoshop or the skillset to use it. Just because it was made in MS paint doesn't make what it's representing any less valid.
And even FURTHER, how about all the people that have what I linked in this thread in their signatures supporting it? A lot of those same people are veterans from even as far back as 2003!
So now it's your turn to support your opinion Agricola:
How would implementing something like I have talked about in this thread and explained in detail, and what is represented in the bottom graph in the link that I posted, do anything negative towards Darkfall? How would it take away what veterans have earned? How would it turn it into an FPS?
I did my part, now I'm the one waiting with baited breath for an answer.
We've done this 1,000 times already and it's just boring now. You make the same proposal justifying it by saying it'll bring in more players and you link some graph made by a dude using MS paint. I say it looks like an NGE and ask where your evidence is that leads you to believe that making it easier and faster to attain a high level will result in higher player numbers. I go on to point out that in the past every MMORPG that did this has actually lost massive amounts of subscriptions as it made the game mediocre, the loyal playerbase quit and that potential playerbase never materialized. You then fail to answer this but continue to say the same thing and post the same graphs in threads like a broken record. We wait a bit and you leap in on any thread you can and start it all over again.
So Kasmos are you going to post the evidence that shows it will actually bring in a new playerbase and not leave us playing WW2online in a fantasy setting or are you going to ignore the question again because you don't have it? I await your post that fails to answer me with baited breath!
How about all the polls on the forums that show that the majority of people think that there is an issue?
How about all the threads that go on for hundreds of posts in which PLENTY of people argue that there is an issue?
How about all the people that used to be subscribed that post on the forums saying the grind was one of the biggest reasons (if not the biggest) that they left?
A lot of my real life friends I brought to this game quit because of the intense grind, and some of these kids can from Project Everquest 1999!
A lot of my clanmates quit because of the intense grind.
I mean really, I don't know what you want me to show you. Numbers? You're trying to have me show you evidence with numbers when Aventurine hasn't released ANYTHING. All we can go off of is what we see on the forums and through talking to people in game.
And just look at your quoted post. You say, and I quote, "and not leave us playing WW2online in a fantasy setting", implying that it would turn the game into an FPS. Why would doing what I am proposing turn it into an FPS? The grind would remain THE EXACT SAME, all it would do is get people to a more competitive level in 4 months of casual play.
How in the HELL is that even CLOSE to turning it into an FPS? How about you answer that question for me Agricola?
And hell, you even make fun of the graph because it was made in MS paint. Well SORRY we all can't make ridiculous pictures like you can, not all of us have photoshop or the skillset to use it. Just because it was made in MS paint doesn't make what it's representing any less valid.
And even FURTHER, how about all the people that have what I linked in this thread in their signatures supporting it? A lot of those same people are veterans from even as far back as 2003!
So now it's your turn to support your opinion Agricola:
How would implementing something like I have talked about in this thread and explained in detail, and what is represented in the bottom graph in the link that I posted, do anything negative towards Darkfall? How would it take away what veterans have earned? How would it turn it into an FPS?
I did my part, now I'm the one waiting with baited breath for an answer.
becuase what you are stating as facts are not facts. some are, some are half truth. so to expect an answer based on your fantasy persception of reality is not going to get you a healthy answer.
The number 1 reason people leave the game is NOT the grind, its becuase they get killed and lose their stuff, if they get over getting ganked once a day they wouldnt have such a hard on for grinding.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
becuase what you are stating as facts are not facts. some are, some are half truth. so to expect an answer based on your fantasy persception of reality is not going to get you a healthy answer.
The number 1 reason people leave the game is NOT the grind, its becuase they get killed and lose their stuff, if they get over getting ganked once a day they wouldnt have such a hard on for grinding.
No SEANMCAD, I'm asking him to answer why what I'm proposing would do harm to Darkfall, meaning non-linear stat benefit gain, something that a lot of people on the forums are starting to support. And how can you say what I'm not stating is facts?
Do the polls that talk about this topic have results that show that there is an issue? Yes, they do.
Are there a lot of people that agree with me that there is an issue and voice their opinion? Yes, there are.
Did my real life friends and a lot of my clanmates quit because of the grind? Yes, they did.
So what am I saying that is not factual? Sure, I even said in my post I can't prove anything with numbers because we HAVE no numbers. Hell, we don't even have numbers on the population!
And honestly? I think the number one reason people who would normally like a FFA full loot game (like my friends) quit because of the grind. Sure, MOST people probably stop playing Darkfall because they get killed and lose their pixels, but MOST people couldn't handle a free for all, full loot PvP game, so that point is moot.
So now I can ask you exactly what I asked Agricola, and you CAN answer it whether or not anything I said is fact:
How would implementing something like I have talked about in this thread and explained in detail, and what is represented in the bottom graph in the link that I posted, do anything negative towards Darkfall? How would it take away what veterans have earned? How would it turn it into an FPS?
Now I'm waiting for your answers as well.
There are no quests in Darkfall
Do we play the same game haha?
I don't consider the little n00b tutorial thingies quests, really.
And title quests are also not your usual definition of a "quest". They are simply a way to get titles by doing things that you would normally be doing anyway.
Once you are out and away from the NPC cities, into the "real game", there are no quests.
And it's a good thing.
You really shouldn't ppost in this thread, if you don't play the game.
You have no idea of what you are talking about.
There are many quests out there.
And i don't think quests to kill X Hill Giant Slugger or Varangian Warthains are meant to be "Tutorial Quests" for n00bs.
Also getting rewards like rare ores don't make me think this quests are for new players.
And if you don't know it already, i should tell you : You could go back to npc cities, even if you are in the "real game".
my bad. however, did you really quit becuase of the grind or becuase you cant kill other players without grinding. there is a big difference. the later supports what I am saying. People loss a fight and they feel they must win one so the grind to get 'compettive'
now, having said that what is 'non-linear stat benefit gain' i havent been to the offical forums in awhile i have no idea what that would look like that would not turn the game into a fantasy based version of halo
EDIT: I will say this, I do agree that DF has a grind. That said, its a small pain point compared to what almost all other MMO's have in terms of overall game play. I give DF a lot of slack becuase the positives in this game are very huge compared to its negitives.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
I think the main reason people think there is a "horrendous grind" in Darkfall is because there's no quests, but if you think about it, quests in other games almost always consist of "go kill 20 boars" or something similar. In Darkfall you don't get a serious of quests to kill 100 things, you just go kill 100 things. "Quests" are just disguises for the grind in MMORPGs (usually, although some games have some pretty awesome quests with good story writing like the epic quests in LOTRO- along with a thousand "kill 20 boars" quests), and based on this thread, they seem to be pretty effective disguises. Make no mistake, though, there's a grind in every MMORPG, and it's usually no less than Darkfall.
I like that there's no quests in Darkfall. It frees me up to kill whatever group of mobs I want when I want. Also, it dramatically decreases the feeling of having my hand held, which is annoying. In other games I find myself just following the arrow to the next part of the quest. The arrow on the mini-map is almost a literal metaphor for someone holding your hand and telling you where to go.
We've done this 1,000 times already and it's just boring now. You make the same proposal justifying it by saying it'll bring in more players and you link some graph made by a dude using MS paint. I say it looks like an NGE and ask where your evidence is that leads you to believe that making it easier and faster to attain a high level will result in higher player numbers. I go on to point out that in the past every MMORPG that did this has actually lost massive amounts of subscriptions as it made the game mediocre, the loyal playerbase quit and that potential playerbase never materialized. You then fail to answer this but continue to say the same thing and post the same graphs in threads like a broken record. We wait a bit and you leap in on any thread you can and start it all over again.
So Kasmos are you going to post the evidence that shows it will actually bring in a new playerbase and not leave us playing WW2online in a fantasy setting or are you going to ignore the question again because you don't have it? I await your post that fails to answer me with baited breath!
How about all the polls on the forums that show that the majority of people think that there is an issue?
I've seen those polls and out of the tiny amount of the playerbase that responded it's about 50/50 meaning it'd make no difference population wise ... if you believe statistics that is!
How about all the threads that go on for hundreds of posts in which PLENTY of people argue that there is an issue?
People argue, plenty disagree with the idea like myself.
How about all the people that used to be subscribed that post on the forums saying the grind was one of the biggest reasons (if not the biggest) that they left?
What about them? A handfull of people QQing because they got rolled isn't enough to change the mechanics on everyone that is paying to play in my opinion.
A lot of my real life friends I brought to this game quit because of the intense grind, and some of these kids can from Project Everquest 1999!
Alot of my friends bought it and stuck with it because of the unique character progression, maybe we should make it harder?
A lot of my clanmates quit because of the intense grind.
So? We had many more quit because they got pked and rage quit, should we make pvp consencial in order to raise subs they may not materialize?
I mean really, I don't know what you want me to show you. Numbers? You're trying to have me show you evidence with numbers when Aventurine hasn't released ANYTHING. All we can go off of is what we see on the forums and through talking to people in game.
Show me some evidence that it would bring in more players, we know for a fact many that are playing have said they'd quit (forum polls prove it, see how I did that?) but how many would play? Also why would I care even if you were correct because it'd be WoWfall and I'd have quit anyway!
And just look at your quoted post. You say, and I quote, "and not leave us playing WW2online in a fantasy setting", implying that it would turn the game into an FPS. Why would doing what I am proposing turn it into an FPS? The grind would remain THE EXACT SAME, all it would do is get people to a more competitive level in 4 months of casual play.
I used WW2online as it has little character progression, you can pvp straight away on an even keel and it's dead. Being a good pvper isn't all about stats, you can be good with high skills and on 250 HPs, people in my clan with 250 hp can beat me and I have 340. This is about stat whining, give the whiners what they want and they'll all sub because a forum pull of a few hundred players says so ... lame.
How in the HELL is that even CLOSE to turning it into an FPS? How about you answer that question for me Agricola?
And hell, you even make fun of the graph because it was made in MS paint. Well SORRY we all can't make ridiculous pictures like you can, not all of us have photoshop or the skillset to use it. Just because it was made in MS paint doesn't make what it's representing any less valid.
And even FURTHER, how about all the people that have what I linked in this thread in their signatures supporting it? A lot of those same people are veterans from even as far back as 2003!
So now it's your turn to support your opinion Agricola:
How would implementing something like I have talked about in this thread and explained in detail, and what is represented in the bottom graph in the link that I posted, do anything negative towards Darkfall? How would it take away what veterans have earned? How would it turn it into an FPS?
What about all the vets that are against it? Don't they count anymore because they don't fit into your grand scheme of things? Those polls are pretty evenly split and to be fair most people are just sick of the stat whine threads and avoid them now, the only people who click on them and vote are probably stat whiners themselves.
I did my part, now I'm the one waiting with baited breath for an answer.
You didn't do your part, your evidence is just a few polls you selected carefully and a shitty graph. All the evidence points to a horrible death if we get a trammel/NGE and everyone is given a get out of character progression free card. Show me a game where it worked? You can't because all the games that did it died horribly and were not recoverable, you have a poll some mates that quit and a graph. The rest of us that are against it don't count, well SOE said that once and their game died in 3 months when they didn't listen.
/rant begin
Well I dare Aventurine to do it, go for it because I'd be gone like a flash along with everyone else they'd be pissing on. I don't know how many we are, I don't give a shit about some bologne poll or a graph made with MS paint. Do it FFS so that Kasmos will STFU and I don't have to read his BS in every single thread when him and the three other stat whiners hijack it and talk about it being a no skill PvE game. And if they do can the stat whiners please make a promise not to polloute any future PvP based game that has a tough character progression please, just stay in WoWfall and nutcup with the 5 other stat whiners left playing,
/rant end
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience"
CS Lewis
You are pretty much right. If a game isnt PvP based then it really comes down to how well the developers can disguise the grind. In darkfall there is really no attempt to disguise it at all you pretty much just have to kill thousands of mobs raw, while other games disguise the grind within tons of quests and storyline. This magnifies the difficulty many times even though the amount of time it takes to kill your 10k or 15k mobs or whatever is about the same it takes to hit cap level in other games. The darkfall grindstone is very rough and uneven. When you smash your forehead against it it hurts a lot more than a smooth, even grindstone.
There are quests in darkfall but really no storyline and most quests are "kill at least 10 xxx" that you repeat 20 times before finding a new one. This doesnt help disguise the grind at all, in fact it might even make the huge grind that much more apparent for someone.
You really shouldn't ppost in this thread, if you don't play the game.
You have no idea of what you are talking about.
There are many quests out there.
And i don't think quests to kill X Hill Giant Slugger or Varangian Warthains are meant to be "Tutorial Quests" for n00bs.
Also getting rewards like rare ores don't make me think this quests are for new players.
And if you don't know it already, i should tell you : You could go back to npc cities, even if you are in the "real game".
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHA!!!! OMG!! hehehe....oh man, I almost just fell outta my chair reading this.
hey dude....I've been playing the game for close to a year. Yeah.....those little tasks they give you in the n00b cities are basically a tutorial. So they kick you some decent rewards.....that's a good thing, IMO. Enjoy them.
I have no interest in going anywhere near a n00b city, though...thx anyways. If I want my rare ores, I'll mine them from my clan's mine, or kill some golems.
I read the patch notes, same as anyone else. I know they added a few quests there for the lowbies to get their feet wet a bit. They are designed to get you used to the game, and get you out and exploring a bit. That is all.