My suspicion is that the Imperial Guard will be NPC's only, if they are present at all.
The four races I mentioned earlier, Space Marines, Chaos, Orks, and Eldar are balanced against each other in the fluff quite nicely. All of them clash on a regular basis one on one and there's no definitive "oh space marines will always win".
I also agree with the suggestion of a skill based system, and the twitch aiming with skills to help auto-correct.
As a former GW employee I'm interested in seeing what this game has to offer. If it's only a twitch-based "combat, combat, combat" game it'll only do a disservice to the IP as this certainly is an opportunity to bring more of the 40K universe to life, to flesh it out more. If it's just an MMO 40K combat arcade themepark, well, that in my view was tried with WAR and didn't turn out so hot. I agree with where I think Kyleran's comments were headed. More sim and less arcade.
"In the grim darkness of the far future, there is only war"
I can say with some degree of certainty that that mantra is what the game will be. The kids out there aren't looking for a Rogue Trader MMO. They don't want to see their space marine hunched over a workbench crafting his power armor. I swear to all that's holy, if they implement crafting of any kind, it's a dealbreaker for me.
I will play this if it's Planet side with a War 40K theme, give players the choice of Fps or 3rd, and i hope it's a free aim combat no lock on to targets and auto attack, use one server with every shard a planet for massive combat.
I am a fan not a fanatic i don't know every thing about the lore but if they make a crap game for this part of the WarHammer univers all i have to say to that will be
You guys are digging into the mantle without looking at the crust...
It's too early to think of races / classes / ui.
I would like for one thing, above all else, to be decided at this point. I want the game to be mature at the very least and adult if at all possible.
Warhammer is gritty, morose, adult oriented science fiction horror/fantasy. There is nothing in the lore or novels directed at a teenage mentality.
We're talking about an IP that got popular with novels like the Inquisition War. This one ends with EVERYONE dying and is arguably one of the best series of novels Black Library ever put out for this universe.
I don't want to see Chaos portrayed as rediculously gay hot pink and baby blue warriors in closed masks with tubes running out and glowy lights. There is nothing scary or chaotic about that other than the utter lack of lore.
If you can't make it scary, leave it out. I'd rather them not put chaos into this game at all, unless they can do it justice.
Everyone knows Khornites scream Blood for the Blood god. Do they know that mostly these guys attack each other?
It takes monumental effort to get them to work together at any time and even when they do, usually it falls apart as they turn on each other because the ONLY thing that matters is bloodshed. They don't give a damn whose blood it is, as long as it get splattered everywhere in the most flagrant and vicious manner possible.
Lets not even discuss Slannesh as we know NOBODY in their right minds would put that in their game they'd have to rate it XXX.
I want to see a game that doesn't belittle the IP by making it an overblown cartoon. WAR did this and was a travesty that DESERVED to fail utterly.
Frankly I still want to see Mythic close up and declare bankruptcy for what they did to the fantasy IP. It was disgustingly bad.
I want them to get this one thing right, the rest I can accept as they choose to do it. I want them to put out a game that shows respect to the idea that this IP WAS NEVER MEANT FOR KIDS.
Never violate a woman, nor harm a child. Do not lie, cheat or steal. These things are for lesser men. Protect the weak against the evil strong. And never allow thoughts of gain to lead you into the pursuit of evil. Never back away from an enemy. Either fight or surrender. It is not enough to say I will not be evil. Evil must be fought wherever it is found.The Iron Code"
The number 1 issue with Warhammer Online is that the fans of Mythic was expecting DaoC 2 and the fans of Warhammer was expecting, well, Warhammer.
Yet neither of those groups got what they expected and instead what Mythic produced was a WoW clone in a vain attempt in trying to tap into the huge WoW playerbase.
Needless to say the whole thing "failed" as not did the Mythic fans got what they needed, nor the Warhammer fans and since WoW is a better WoW than any WoW clone so neither did the devs get the huge influx of WoW players they thought they would get.
So, if it is not apparent what I am getting at, it is that the number one thing they need to get it right is to produce a Warhammer 40k game and not yet another WoW clone.
The idea that SMs have to be OP doesnt seem so obvious to me. Eldar can be as powerful if not more so. Aspect warriors are kind of like specialized versions of SMs.
An idea for Ork I like is what if like in Allods they made Ork like they did the Gibberling like you character is 3 avatars that run around together. Even cooler is as you reach Boss levels you would have a couple nobs always with you. Then you could explain comparative levels of power with them and SMs ans you would have Orks raids that looked like proper Waaaghs. Works for IG too, level up an IG to Storm Trooper, then to Commisar, the maybe to Inquisitor (crossing army lines but still..)
Tyranids could be the most customizable toons because of the genetic changes available.
Theres ways to make all the races attractive to players
1. Players controlling multiple characters to form their squad.
I say let plays gather requisition, as gold/silver/copper in other MMOs, and use those requisition points to buy squad members and wargear/biomorphs/ect. You are the captain of a single squad, but you might have several squad members. Anytime a squad member dies, it is permantly dead, along with all gear with it. If you die, you are respawn as per the other MMOs.
There is no need for a death penalty as you have lost all your squad members and their wargear you spent time gaining the favor of your commanders in giving you requisition points for creation of squads and wargear.
2. The game needs to be skill based instead of level based. There needs to be skill trees that allows for various tactics, squad members, and wargear to be purchased/used.
Having a scout class, tactical class, devestator class, ect just does not make sense. Neither does levels. What should happen is all players should have an amount of skill points alloted to them and after completing objectives they gain more skill points to spend.
Some of the armor/wargear needs to be destroyed on death, like terminator power suit or special gear that gives players great advantages but if death happens, they will need to repurchase the gear.
3. There still needs to be the standard quests that every MMO has but every quest *MUST* have some type of PvP element tied to it. Albet it be moving supplies, recapturing objectives, helping in some multi-tiered assault, ect.
PvP *HAS* to permeate the entire game. The WH40k lore dictates this so allow for PvE to happen, but people must perform some PvP as well.
Basically it boils down to:
1. Squad based gameplay for each player.
2. No Levels.
3. PvP must be there!
Other areas really are hard to develop. Like the sheer number of races in the game. The only game I have seen that accomplishes this is EQ on a Racial PvP server back in its day. You have like 9 races but like 5 factions. The major issue is that most factions in WH40k work alone.
Chaos Daemons and Chaos Space Marines can work together.
Daemonhunters, Witch Hunters, Imperial Guard, and Space Marines can work together.
But Dark Eldar, Eldar, Necrons, Orks, Tau, and Tyranids generally do not work with any other factions.
Thats a total of 8 factions but 12 races exist. I could see them making Necrons and Tyranids non-playable but this would be a BIG let down, personally, to me. So now thats down to 6 factions and 10 races. But to keep in line with lore, you can not go any lower than this without making some lore changes which I think is a mistake.
But I am hoping they can pull this off.
Edit: I completely left out vehicles but they MUST be in the game also.
MMOs Played: I can no longer list them all in the 500 character limit.
3. There still needs to be the standard quests that every MMO has but every quest *MUST* have some type of PvP element tied to it. Albet it be moving supplies, recapturing objectives, helping in some multi-tiered assault, ect. PvP *HAS* to permeate the entire game. The WH40k lore dictates this so allow for PvE to happen, but people must perform some PvP as well.
This is the dumbest thing I've seen in this thread so far.
EVERY SINGLE GAME that has attempted this has failed compared to games we all consider success.
By forcing PVP, you exclude the LARGEST PORTION OF MMO PLAYERS.
[ Mod Edit ], PVP centric players are the VAST minority. Many players like both, many PVE centric players like PVP. Many PVP players like PVE.
Few people like forced PVP.
Just read the forums about Allods online and see the problems they are having...and try to learn if you want a shitty game with little to no subscriber base, follow your number 3 above.
If you want a game with 11+ million subscribers and enough money coming in for decent updates and patches, do NOT force PVP on the subscriber base.
How many games have to fail for the idiots spouting this nonsense to understand??
Never violate a woman, nor harm a child. Do not lie, cheat or steal. These things are for lesser men. Protect the weak against the evil strong. And never allow thoughts of gain to lead you into the pursuit of evil. Never back away from an enemy. Either fight or surrender. It is not enough to say I will not be evil. Evil must be fought wherever it is found.The Iron Code"
PvP: the game does not need to be based on PvP and everything else built around. It can be a fun PvE game with optional content. Fully PvP games never satisfyes the PvPers and leaves the PvEers at the gate.
Combat interface: I disagree, a First person shooter works in MMO. Maybe many don't like it but there are many who can't stand keyboard steering game play and/or 3rd person view. Also when you're not in combat aiming your gun you can wander zoomed out and still enjoy your character look.
Praxus1874 has a a very interesting input: Space Marine, Ork, Eldar and Chaos should be implemented at launch and separated factions
In my book WH40K needs to be a fun, full featured virtual world and not reduced simply to its combat elements. We can discuss the particulars later.
Can you define "full-featured" virtual world? Your definition and mine might differ.
Prax
Sandbox design, (but can have quests as well, as long as they are more story like rather than kill 5 boars), full featured crafting system that is relevant in the game world, some form of bases/guild halls, deep faction based combat system (at least 3), large expansive world/universe to explore, preferably based on skills, (but I can deal with classes), no levels, (I hate levels anymore, especially in PVP games), player created and controlled world objectives (that are battled for and worth fighting for) and enough content to keep me playing.
Example of how not to make it : STO
Example of how to do it right: EVE
Yeah, I want it to be an old school MMO, so "encouraged grouping" is also fine by me.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
The idea that SMs have to be OP doesnt seem so obvious to me. Eldar can be as powerful if not more so. Aspect warriors are kind of like specialized versions of SMs. An idea for Ork I like is what if like in Allods they made Ork like they did the Gibberling like you character is 3 avatars that run around together. Even cooler is as you reach Boss levels you would have a couple nobs always with you. Then you could explain comparative levels of power with them and SMs ans you would have Orks raids that looked like proper Waaaghs. Works for IG too, level up an IG to Storm Trooper, then to Commisar, the maybe to Inquisitor (crossing army lines but still..) Tyranids could be the most customizable toons because of the genetic changes available.
Theres ways to make all the races attractive to players
Space Marines are superior to Eldar in almost every way. If you look at stat lines in tabletop gaming, Space Marine Grunt's stat line is much better than any other basic grunt. Necron maybe...thats besides the point. And even their aspect warriors are not as good as SM's, they only make them better at a particular role. The only thing that makes Eldar good are their High Initiative. Like you said in your second paragraph though you can have squads that make them equal than a normal SM.If you have ever read any of their books. A SM one on one with any playable codex race SM wins hands down and sometimes naked and hands bound...
To the guy that said IG should be NPC's because they are weak or not on par in fluff is ridiculous. All I have to say in on the table top my IG rock And i have many books about different IG characters or regiments. But this isnt going to be a table top game its an online game and hopefully they dont dumb down Space Marines to be "even" with everyone. Orks are fungus that are only good in large numbers. To balance them in is to put them in large mobs o boyz and let them get stuck in. Same could be said for IG too. My group of Vets in a chimera have put down Orks SM's and Eldar all equally in the name of the Emperor. The Black Library is full of fluff about all groups, Imperium and Xenos alike. To leave IG out would be an injustice to the Imperium as the IG are the backbone of the Imperium of Man. Besides one SM Chapter is 2k Marines. What is a few thousand marines compared to billions of the fighting men and women of the Imperial Guard.
(Just want playable IG in the game, Can't wait to find out more details on the game)
I also really enjoyed the idea that was seen in a rumor on another thread:
Tyranids being implemented as THE PvE faction. The only PvE faction. It makes sense from a lore perspective, and would give lots of PvE opportunity for epic encounters and the possible "dungeons" I mentioned before of Hulks and Hives.
In response to a post a while back that this needs to be "Mature", I think it can get away with Teen. Slaanesh is probably the most "Mature" example in wh40k, and even then I think WAR did a good job of toning it down.
I do agree that the setting needs to be grim and dark, but that doesn't necessarily mean wtfdemonbewbs everywhere and people's brains splattered on the pavement.
In response to a post a while back that this needs to be "Mature", I think it can get away with Teen. Slaanesh is probably the most "Mature" example in wh40k, and even then I think WAR did a good job of toning it down.
You must be one of the 5 or so people that liked WAR in any respect then.
My post had nothing to do with chaos bewbs. I even say, if you bothered to read, they should leave slannesh out completely.
My point was that I did not want them to dumb down the content and make it pisspoor cartoons so they could have a teen rating.
That goes against everything the IP has done. WAR failed. I expect it to shut down as it continues to hemorage subs. The best bet would be to do nothing of what Mythic tried to do. DO NOT make a teeny based cartoony game that is at best a pisspoor wow clone. That doesn't work.
If you are going to use a mature IP, then make the game mature. Was anything even remotely scarey about chaos? The most feared Race in the IP and the best they did was pastel colors and a flying disk. Please.
PS Brains on every corner would be a move in the right direction frankly. Especially for the Chaos starting area.
Never violate a woman, nor harm a child. Do not lie, cheat or steal. These things are for lesser men. Protect the weak against the evil strong. And never allow thoughts of gain to lead you into the pursuit of evil. Never back away from an enemy. Either fight or surrender. It is not enough to say I will not be evil. Evil must be fought wherever it is found.The Iron Code"
If you are going to use a mature IP, then make the game mature. Was anything even remotely scarey about chaos? The most feared Race in the IP and the best they did was pastel colors and a flying disk. Please.
Apparently you misspelled tyranids as chaos.
Apparently stating the truth in my sig is "trolling" Sig typo fixed thanks to an observant stragen001.
In response to a post a while back that this needs to be "Mature", I think it can get away with Teen. Slaanesh is probably the most "Mature" example in wh40k, and even then I think WAR did a good job of toning it down.
You must be one of the 5 or so people that liked WAR in any respect then.
My post had nothing to do with chaos bewbs. I even say, if you bothered to read, they should leave slannesh out completely.
My point was that I did not want them to dumb down the content and make it pisspoor cartoons so they could have a teen rating.
That goes against everything the IP has done. WAR failed. I expect it to shut down as it continues to hemorage subs. The best bet would be to do nothing of what Mythic tried to do. DO NOT make a teeny based cartoony game that is at best a pisspoor wow clone. That doesn't work.
If you are going to use a mature IP, then make the game mature. Was anything even remotely scarey about chaos? The most feared Race in the IP and the best they did was pastel colors and a flying disk. Please.
PS Brains on every corner would be a move in the right direction frankly. Especially for the Chaos starting area.
"Cartoon" graphics do not equal one rating or another. I'm not going to turn this into a conversation about WAR, but I had no problems with the graphics. It was a poorly designed game, but that had nothing to do with disrespecting the IP.
Personally, I don't see Warhammer in general as that "mature". Maybe your definition of Mature and mine differ. Blood and violence does not equate a mature rating. Conan only has one due to the partial nudity and occasional swearing. I can't even recall any swearing in wh40k books/games/etc. Regardless, I don't think you should judge a game's merits based upon it's ESRB rating.
I'm not sure what you deem cartoony, but I would be satisfied with Conan-caliber graphics. I think hyper-realistic graphics are not a good idea for any game that intends to have a lot of players in the same area at once. If you are going to do that, you had better invest in good server hardware, and design the game accordingly.
If you are going to use a mature IP, then make the game mature. Was anything even remotely scarey about chaos? The most feared Race in the IP and the best they did was pastel colors and a flying disk. Please.
Apparently you misspelled tyranids as chaos.
Apparently you haven't bothered to read my posts. I have been referring to WAR. Last I checked it did not have Tyranids.
Learn to read before trolling.
Never violate a woman, nor harm a child. Do not lie, cheat or steal. These things are for lesser men. Protect the weak against the evil strong. And never allow thoughts of gain to lead you into the pursuit of evil. Never back away from an enemy. Either fight or surrender. It is not enough to say I will not be evil. Evil must be fought wherever it is found.The Iron Code"
The idea that SMs have to be OP doesnt seem so obvious to me. Eldar can be as powerful if not more so. Aspect warriors are kind of like specialized versions of SMs. An idea for Ork I like is what if like in Allods they made Ork like they did the Gibberling like you character is 3 avatars that run around together. Even cooler is as you reach Boss levels you would have a couple nobs always with you. Then you could explain comparative levels of power with them and SMs ans you would have Orks raids that looked like proper Waaaghs. Works for IG too, level up an IG to Storm Trooper, then to Commisar, the maybe to Inquisitor (crossing army lines but still..) Tyranids could be the most customizable toons because of the genetic changes available.
Theres ways to make all the races attractive to players
Space Marines are superior to Eldar in almost every way. If you look at stat lines in tabletop gaming, Space Marine Grunt's stat line is much better than any other basic grunt. Necron maybe...thats besides the point. And even their aspect warriors are not as good as SM's, they only make them better at a particular role. The only thing that makes Eldar good are their High Initiative. Like you said in your second paragraph though you can have squads that make them equal than a normal SM.If you have ever read any of their books. A SM one on one with any playable codex race SM wins hands down and sometimes naked and hands bound...
To the guy that said IG should be NPC's because they are weak or not on par in fluff is ridiculous. All I have to say in on the table top my IG rock And i have many books about different IG characters or regiments. But this isnt going to be a table top game its an online game and hopefully they dont dumb down Space Marines to be "even" with everyone. Orks are fungus that are only good in large numbers. To balance them in is to put them in large mobs o boyz and let them get stuck in. Same could be said for IG too. My group of Vets in a chimera have put down Orks SM's and Eldar all equally in the name of the Emperor. The Black Library is full of fluff about all groups, Imperium and Xenos alike. To leave IG out would be an injustice to the Imperium as the IG are the backbone of the Imperium of Man. Besides one SM Chapter is 2k Marines. What is a few thousand marines compared to billions of the fighting men and women of the Imperial Guard.
(Just want playable IG in the game, Can't wait to find out more details on the game)
Ever had a squad of marines charged by Banshees or Scorpians. Ive destroyed SM Devastator squads with fewer Reapers. It isnt just stat lines, as I said the Aspects are like specialized versions of marines, in their intended roles they can destroy SMs. SMs are powerful and one of the things that makes them so powerful is they are so versatile, theyre not only really really good, theyre good at everything. That doesnt mean they can beat everyone or that theyre necessarily better than everyone though. A good Eldar player that knows how to use and maneuver his troops will eat up a SM player. Thats why at least until recently Eldar were considered OP on tabletop. Harlequins ftw.
Its not just about stat line, as an IG enthusiast you should appreciate that as much as anyone.
I'm not sure what you deem cartoony, but I would be satisfied with Conan-caliber graphics. I think hyper-realistic graphics are not a good idea for any game that intends to have a lot of players in the same area at once. If you are going to do that, you had better invest in good server hardware, and design the game accordingly. Prax
I agree with you completely. I would be impressed with Conan-calibur graphics. I would accept much less.
My point was not clear. When I said mature I meant that the content was played down in the extreme so they would not have to deal with the hyper violence of the IP.
The world in WAR is a little bit worse than the world in WoW. It's not really bothersome or scarey in any way.
If you read any of the books, the world of W40k is a real horror to live in. The hyper violence is a reaction to the world as it stands.
I want them to try to capture that as opposed to avoiding it like WAR did because of the rating they would get by doing so.
They lost so much of the grittiness in WAR that it wasn't even the IP anymore when they were done.
That's what I mean, I just couldn't think of a term to sum that up other than "mature". I could care less about nudity. I have internet pr0n for that.
Never violate a woman, nor harm a child. Do not lie, cheat or steal. These things are for lesser men. Protect the weak against the evil strong. And never allow thoughts of gain to lead you into the pursuit of evil. Never back away from an enemy. Either fight or surrender. It is not enough to say I will not be evil. Evil must be fought wherever it is found.The Iron Code"
I'm not sure what you deem cartoony, but I would be satisfied with Conan-caliber graphics. I think hyper-realistic graphics are not a good idea for any game that intends to have a lot of players in the same area at once. If you are going to do that, you had better invest in good server hardware, and design the game accordingly. Prax
I agree with you completely. I would be impressed with Conan-calibur graphics. I would accept much less.
My point was not clear. When I said mature I meant that the content was played down in the extreme so they would not have to deal with the hyper violence of the IP.
The world in WAR is a little bit worse than the world in WoW. It's not really bothersome or scarey in any way.
If you read any of the books, the world of W40k is a real horror to live in. The hyper violence is a reaction to the world as it stands.
I want them to try to capture that as opposed to avoiding it like WAR did because of the rating they would get by doing so.
They lost so much of the grittiness in WAR that it wasn't even the IP anymore when they were done.
That's what I mean, I just couldn't think of a term to sum that up other than "mature". I could care less about nudity. I have internet pr0n for that.
I will be the first to admit that I am a poor judge of Warhammer Fantasy. I dislike that setting, there is nothing about the lore that speaks to me in the same way that the 40k setting does.
40k isn't so much scary, as it is desperate. It's a desperate struggle for all these races to survive, constantly at war with one another. I think war should be everywhere in the game, but unless you're an average hive world citizen, there's not much that's scary.
"And they shall know no fear"
And to the guy talking about how he destroys with IG on the tabletop. You could make that argument for any of the races in the game. The simple fact is that you don't win on the table with IG by fighting against the other races with equal numbers. You win through superior firepower and hordes of troops. That's not viable in an MMO setting. They aren't going to give you a leman russ or 30 other infantry NPCs to run around with you to make you equal to everyone else.
On the Eldar front, I would say any aspect warrior is roughly on par with a Space Marine.
Let's be clear here, a fun and balanced game is never going to be true to the IP. There will be sacrifices, for the sake of making a game. What we should be hoping here, are that the sacrifices are small.
Just reading this thread, this game will have it rough no matter what they do. We're all very picky fans, aren't we?
Lore that goes back to 1988. Heck yeah we're picky fans!! I was old enough to appreciate the lore back then. I'm crotchety now and don't want them abusing the lore I've grown to love in my adulthood.
I bet more than half the people on these forums were "born" around the time Warhammer 40k started up. Keep in mind the fantasy side had been going for a while when they chose to start up the space version.
They have a serious set of shoes to fill.
Mythic failed miserably and made me lose all respect for a company, up until WAR that, I actually liked.
Never violate a woman, nor harm a child. Do not lie, cheat or steal. These things are for lesser men. Protect the weak against the evil strong. And never allow thoughts of gain to lead you into the pursuit of evil. Never back away from an enemy. Either fight or surrender. It is not enough to say I will not be evil. Evil must be fought wherever it is found.The Iron Code"
Ever had a squad of marines charged by Banshees or Scorpians. Ive destroyed SM Devastator squads with fewer Reapers. It isnt just stat lines, as I said the Aspects are like specialized versions of marines, in their intended roles they can destroy SMs. SMs are powerful and one of the things that makes them so powerful is they are so versatile, theyre not only really really good, theyre good at everything. That doesnt mean they can beat everyone or that theyre necessarily better than everyone though. A good Eldar player that knows how to use and maneuver his troops will eat up a SM player. Thats why at least until recently Eldar were considered OP on tabletop. Harlequins ftw.
Its not just about stat line, as an IG enthusiast you should appreciate that as much as anyone.
(I should of quoted but bleh hehe)
I have been charged by banshees and charged with them . I have charged banshees and scorps with my assault squad and wiped them. I actually played Eldar first, since about 3rd edition. I am talking basic stat line SM is better than most everyone. In the books one on one SM kicks everyones ass. The game is all about dice rolls. The space marine is well balanced and can do anything. Eldar are good at what you make them good at, aka aspects. in hand to hand there are few that surpass harlequins except Tyranids now ith whiplash which now give harlies Init 1.
Either way I tend to just turn on the heavy flamers power up the meltas and make sure the promethium isnt at a shortage.
Just love the fluff with the Imperium. The space elves got sold when I joined the Army and bought Tau. When 5ED came out and ruined the Tau I picked up the IG and some Space Wolves which I love to play so far. Nothing like drunk Space Vikings backed up by IG PDF in Apoc.
Comments
My suspicion is that the Imperial Guard will be NPC's only, if they are present at all.
The four races I mentioned earlier, Space Marines, Chaos, Orks, and Eldar are balanced against each other in the fluff quite nicely. All of them clash on a regular basis one on one and there's no definitive "oh space marines will always win".
I also agree with the suggestion of a skill based system, and the twitch aiming with skills to help auto-correct.
Prax
"In the grim darkness of the far future, there is only war"
I can say with some degree of certainty that that mantra is what the game will be. The kids out there aren't looking for a Rogue Trader MMO. They don't want to see their space marine hunched over a workbench crafting his power armor. I swear to all that's holy, if they implement crafting of any kind, it's a dealbreaker for me.
Prax
I will play this if it's Planet side with a War 40K theme, give players the choice of Fps or 3rd, and i hope it's a free aim combat no lock on to targets and auto attack, use one server with every shard a planet for massive combat.
I am a fan not a fanatic i don't know every thing about the lore but if they make a crap game for this part of the WarHammer univers all i have to say to that will be
BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD !!
You guys are digging into the mantle without looking at the crust...
It's too early to think of races / classes / ui.
I would like for one thing, above all else, to be decided at this point. I want the game to be mature at the very least and adult if at all possible.
Warhammer is gritty, morose, adult oriented science fiction horror/fantasy. There is nothing in the lore or novels directed at a teenage mentality.
We're talking about an IP that got popular with novels like the Inquisition War. This one ends with EVERYONE dying and is arguably one of the best series of novels Black Library ever put out for this universe.
I don't want to see Chaos portrayed as rediculously gay hot pink and baby blue warriors in closed masks with tubes running out and glowy lights. There is nothing scary or chaotic about that other than the utter lack of lore.
If you can't make it scary, leave it out. I'd rather them not put chaos into this game at all, unless they can do it justice.
Everyone knows Khornites scream Blood for the Blood god. Do they know that mostly these guys attack each other?
It takes monumental effort to get them to work together at any time and even when they do, usually it falls apart as they turn on each other because the ONLY thing that matters is bloodshed. They don't give a damn whose blood it is, as long as it get splattered everywhere in the most flagrant and vicious manner possible.
Lets not even discuss Slannesh as we know NOBODY in their right minds would put that in their game they'd have to rate it XXX.
I want to see a game that doesn't belittle the IP by making it an overblown cartoon. WAR did this and was a travesty that DESERVED to fail utterly.
Frankly I still want to see Mythic close up and declare bankruptcy for what they did to the fantasy IP. It was disgustingly bad.
I want them to get this one thing right, the rest I can accept as they choose to do it. I want them to put out a game that shows respect to the idea that this IP WAS NEVER MEANT FOR KIDS.
Never violate a woman, nor harm a child. Do not lie, cheat or steal. These things are for lesser men. Protect the weak against the evil strong. And never allow thoughts of gain to lead you into the pursuit of evil. Never back away from an enemy. Either fight or surrender. It is not enough to say I will not be evil. Evil must be fought wherever it is found.The Iron Code"
The number 1 issue with Warhammer Online is that the fans of Mythic was expecting DaoC 2 and the fans of Warhammer was expecting, well, Warhammer.
Yet neither of those groups got what they expected and instead what Mythic produced was a WoW clone in a vain attempt in trying to tap into the huge WoW playerbase.
Needless to say the whole thing "failed" as not did the Mythic fans got what they needed, nor the Warhammer fans and since WoW is a better WoW than any WoW clone so neither did the devs get the huge influx of WoW players they thought they would get.
So, if it is not apparent what I am getting at, it is that the number one thing they need to get it right is to produce a Warhammer 40k game and not yet another WoW clone.
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The idea that SMs have to be OP doesnt seem so obvious to me. Eldar can be as powerful if not more so. Aspect warriors are kind of like specialized versions of SMs.
An idea for Ork I like is what if like in Allods they made Ork like they did the Gibberling like you character is 3 avatars that run around together. Even cooler is as you reach Boss levels you would have a couple nobs always with you. Then you could explain comparative levels of power with them and SMs ans you would have Orks raids that looked like proper Waaaghs. Works for IG too, level up an IG to Storm Trooper, then to Commisar, the maybe to Inquisitor (crossing army lines but still..)
Tyranids could be the most customizable toons because of the genetic changes available.
Theres ways to make all the races attractive to players
Great, another MMO in the works. I hope it doesn't end up with a blue and red team fighting for nonsense.
This is what needs to happen:
1. Players controlling multiple characters to form their squad.
I say let plays gather requisition, as gold/silver/copper in other MMOs, and use those requisition points to buy squad members and wargear/biomorphs/ect. You are the captain of a single squad, but you might have several squad members. Anytime a squad member dies, it is permantly dead, along with all gear with it. If you die, you are respawn as per the other MMOs.
There is no need for a death penalty as you have lost all your squad members and their wargear you spent time gaining the favor of your commanders in giving you requisition points for creation of squads and wargear.
2. The game needs to be skill based instead of level based. There needs to be skill trees that allows for various tactics, squad members, and wargear to be purchased/used.
Having a scout class, tactical class, devestator class, ect just does not make sense. Neither does levels. What should happen is all players should have an amount of skill points alloted to them and after completing objectives they gain more skill points to spend.
Some of the armor/wargear needs to be destroyed on death, like terminator power suit or special gear that gives players great advantages but if death happens, they will need to repurchase the gear.
3. There still needs to be the standard quests that every MMO has but every quest *MUST* have some type of PvP element tied to it. Albet it be moving supplies, recapturing objectives, helping in some multi-tiered assault, ect.
PvP *HAS* to permeate the entire game. The WH40k lore dictates this so allow for PvE to happen, but people must perform some PvP as well.
Basically it boils down to:
1. Squad based gameplay for each player.
2. No Levels.
3. PvP must be there!
Other areas really are hard to develop. Like the sheer number of races in the game. The only game I have seen that accomplishes this is EQ on a Racial PvP server back in its day. You have like 9 races but like 5 factions. The major issue is that most factions in WH40k work alone.
Chaos Daemons and Chaos Space Marines can work together.
Daemonhunters, Witch Hunters, Imperial Guard, and Space Marines can work together.
But Dark Eldar, Eldar, Necrons, Orks, Tau, and Tyranids generally do not work with any other factions.
Thats a total of 8 factions but 12 races exist. I could see them making Necrons and Tyranids non-playable but this would be a BIG let down, personally, to me. So now thats down to 6 factions and 10 races. But to keep in line with lore, you can not go any lower than this without making some lore changes which I think is a mistake.
But I am hoping they can pull this off.
Edit: I completely left out vehicles but they MUST be in the game also.
MMOs Played: I can no longer list them all in the 500 character limit.
If they have less that 3 factions/races then I won't even sign up for the beta, let alone plunk down $60 and $15/mo for this.
Cunfushus says "Only through wasting time do we realize that time should not be wasted."
This is the dumbest thing I've seen in this thread so far.
EVERY SINGLE GAME that has attempted this has failed compared to games we all consider success.
By forcing PVP, you exclude the LARGEST PORTION OF MMO PLAYERS.
[ Mod Edit ], PVP centric players are the VAST minority. Many players like both, many PVE centric players like PVP. Many PVP players like PVE.
Few people like forced PVP.
Just read the forums about Allods online and see the problems they are having...and try to learn if you want a shitty game with little to no subscriber base, follow your number 3 above.
If you want a game with 11+ million subscribers and enough money coming in for decent updates and patches, do NOT force PVP on the subscriber base.
How many games have to fail for the idiots spouting this nonsense to understand??
Never violate a woman, nor harm a child. Do not lie, cheat or steal. These things are for lesser men. Protect the weak against the evil strong. And never allow thoughts of gain to lead you into the pursuit of evil. Never back away from an enemy. Either fight or surrender. It is not enough to say I will not be evil. Evil must be fought wherever it is found.The Iron Code"
Well well, a very biased article
PvP: the game does not need to be based on PvP and everything else built around. It can be a fun PvE game with optional content. Fully PvP games never satisfyes the PvPers and leaves the PvEers at the gate.
Combat interface: I disagree, a First person shooter works in MMO. Maybe many don't like it but there are many who can't stand keyboard steering game play and/or 3rd person view. Also when you're not in combat aiming your gun you can wander zoomed out and still enjoy your character look.
Praxus1874 has a a very interesting input: Space Marine, Ork, Eldar and Chaos should be implemented at launch and separated factions
meh i predict a serious backlash if somebody screws up the warhammer universe even more than it already has been,
Can you define "full-featured" virtual world? Your definition and mine might differ.
Prax
Sandbox design, (but can have quests as well, as long as they are more story like rather than kill 5 boars), full featured crafting system that is relevant in the game world, some form of bases/guild halls, deep faction based combat system (at least 3), large expansive world/universe to explore, preferably based on skills, (but I can deal with classes), no levels, (I hate levels anymore, especially in PVP games), player created and controlled world objectives (that are battled for and worth fighting for) and enough content to keep me playing.
Example of how not to make it : STO
Example of how to do it right: EVE
Yeah, I want it to be an old school MMO, so "encouraged grouping" is also fine by me.
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Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
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"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Space Marines are superior to Eldar in almost every way. If you look at stat lines in tabletop gaming, Space Marine Grunt's stat line is much better than any other basic grunt. Necron maybe...thats besides the point. And even their aspect warriors are not as good as SM's, they only make them better at a particular role. The only thing that makes Eldar good are their High Initiative. Like you said in your second paragraph though you can have squads that make them equal than a normal SM.If you have ever read any of their books. A SM one on one with any playable codex race SM wins hands down and sometimes naked and hands bound...
To the guy that said IG should be NPC's because they are weak or not on par in fluff is ridiculous. All I have to say in on the table top my IG rock And i have many books about different IG characters or regiments. But this isnt going to be a table top game its an online game and hopefully they dont dumb down Space Marines to be "even" with everyone. Orks are fungus that are only good in large numbers. To balance them in is to put them in large mobs o boyz and let them get stuck in. Same could be said for IG too. My group of Vets in a chimera have put down Orks SM's and Eldar all equally in the name of the Emperor. The Black Library is full of fluff about all groups, Imperium and Xenos alike. To leave IG out would be an injustice to the Imperium as the IG are the backbone of the Imperium of Man. Besides one SM Chapter is 2k Marines. What is a few thousand marines compared to billions of the fighting men and women of the Imperial Guard.
(Just want playable IG in the game, Can't wait to find out more details on the game)
I also really enjoyed the idea that was seen in a rumor on another thread:
Tyranids being implemented as THE PvE faction. The only PvE faction. It makes sense from a lore perspective, and would give lots of PvE opportunity for epic encounters and the possible "dungeons" I mentioned before of Hulks and Hives.
In response to a post a while back that this needs to be "Mature", I think it can get away with Teen. Slaanesh is probably the most "Mature" example in wh40k, and even then I think WAR did a good job of toning it down.
I do agree that the setting needs to be grim and dark, but that doesn't necessarily mean wtfdemonbewbs everywhere and people's brains splattered on the pavement.
Prax
You must be one of the 5 or so people that liked WAR in any respect then.
My post had nothing to do with chaos bewbs. I even say, if you bothered to read, they should leave slannesh out completely.
My point was that I did not want them to dumb down the content and make it pisspoor cartoons so they could have a teen rating.
That goes against everything the IP has done. WAR failed. I expect it to shut down as it continues to hemorage subs. The best bet would be to do nothing of what Mythic tried to do. DO NOT make a teeny based cartoony game that is at best a pisspoor wow clone. That doesn't work.
If you are going to use a mature IP, then make the game mature. Was anything even remotely scarey about chaos? The most feared Race in the IP and the best they did was pastel colors and a flying disk. Please.
PS Brains on every corner would be a move in the right direction frankly. Especially for the Chaos starting area.
Never violate a woman, nor harm a child. Do not lie, cheat or steal. These things are for lesser men. Protect the weak against the evil strong. And never allow thoughts of gain to lead you into the pursuit of evil. Never back away from an enemy. Either fight or surrender. It is not enough to say I will not be evil. Evil must be fought wherever it is found.The Iron Code"
Apparently you misspelled tyranids as chaos.
Apparently stating the truth in my sig is "trolling"
Sig typo fixed thanks to an observant stragen001.
You must be one of the 5 or so people that liked WAR in any respect then.
My post had nothing to do with chaos bewbs. I even say, if you bothered to read, they should leave slannesh out completely.
My point was that I did not want them to dumb down the content and make it pisspoor cartoons so they could have a teen rating.
That goes against everything the IP has done. WAR failed. I expect it to shut down as it continues to hemorage subs. The best bet would be to do nothing of what Mythic tried to do. DO NOT make a teeny based cartoony game that is at best a pisspoor wow clone. That doesn't work.
If you are going to use a mature IP, then make the game mature. Was anything even remotely scarey about chaos? The most feared Race in the IP and the best they did was pastel colors and a flying disk. Please.
PS Brains on every corner would be a move in the right direction frankly. Especially for the Chaos starting area.
"Cartoon" graphics do not equal one rating or another. I'm not going to turn this into a conversation about WAR, but I had no problems with the graphics. It was a poorly designed game, but that had nothing to do with disrespecting the IP.
Personally, I don't see Warhammer in general as that "mature". Maybe your definition of Mature and mine differ. Blood and violence does not equate a mature rating. Conan only has one due to the partial nudity and occasional swearing. I can't even recall any swearing in wh40k books/games/etc. Regardless, I don't think you should judge a game's merits based upon it's ESRB rating.
I'm not sure what you deem cartoony, but I would be satisfied with Conan-caliber graphics. I think hyper-realistic graphics are not a good idea for any game that intends to have a lot of players in the same area at once. If you are going to do that, you had better invest in good server hardware, and design the game accordingly.
Prax
EDIT: fixed spelling
Apparently you misspelled tyranids as chaos.
Apparently you haven't bothered to read my posts. I have been referring to WAR. Last I checked it did not have Tyranids.
Learn to read before trolling.
Never violate a woman, nor harm a child. Do not lie, cheat or steal. These things are for lesser men. Protect the weak against the evil strong. And never allow thoughts of gain to lead you into the pursuit of evil. Never back away from an enemy. Either fight or surrender. It is not enough to say I will not be evil. Evil must be fought wherever it is found.The Iron Code"
Space Marines are superior to Eldar in almost every way. If you look at stat lines in tabletop gaming, Space Marine Grunt's stat line is much better than any other basic grunt. Necron maybe...thats besides the point. And even their aspect warriors are not as good as SM's, they only make them better at a particular role. The only thing that makes Eldar good are their High Initiative. Like you said in your second paragraph though you can have squads that make them equal than a normal SM.If you have ever read any of their books. A SM one on one with any playable codex race SM wins hands down and sometimes naked and hands bound...
To the guy that said IG should be NPC's because they are weak or not on par in fluff is ridiculous. All I have to say in on the table top my IG rock And i have many books about different IG characters or regiments. But this isnt going to be a table top game its an online game and hopefully they dont dumb down Space Marines to be "even" with everyone. Orks are fungus that are only good in large numbers. To balance them in is to put them in large mobs o boyz and let them get stuck in. Same could be said for IG too. My group of Vets in a chimera have put down Orks SM's and Eldar all equally in the name of the Emperor. The Black Library is full of fluff about all groups, Imperium and Xenos alike. To leave IG out would be an injustice to the Imperium as the IG are the backbone of the Imperium of Man. Besides one SM Chapter is 2k Marines. What is a few thousand marines compared to billions of the fighting men and women of the Imperial Guard.
(Just want playable IG in the game, Can't wait to find out more details on the game)
Ever had a squad of marines charged by Banshees or Scorpians. Ive destroyed SM Devastator squads with fewer Reapers. It isnt just stat lines, as I said the Aspects are like specialized versions of marines, in their intended roles they can destroy SMs. SMs are powerful and one of the things that makes them so powerful is they are so versatile, theyre not only really really good, theyre good at everything. That doesnt mean they can beat everyone or that theyre necessarily better than everyone though. A good Eldar player that knows how to use and maneuver his troops will eat up a SM player. Thats why at least until recently Eldar were considered OP on tabletop. Harlequins ftw.
Its not just about stat line, as an IG enthusiast you should appreciate that as much as anyone.
I agree with you completely. I would be impressed with Conan-calibur graphics. I would accept much less.
My point was not clear. When I said mature I meant that the content was played down in the extreme so they would not have to deal with the hyper violence of the IP.
The world in WAR is a little bit worse than the world in WoW. It's not really bothersome or scarey in any way.
If you read any of the books, the world of W40k is a real horror to live in. The hyper violence is a reaction to the world as it stands.
I want them to try to capture that as opposed to avoiding it like WAR did because of the rating they would get by doing so.
They lost so much of the grittiness in WAR that it wasn't even the IP anymore when they were done.
That's what I mean, I just couldn't think of a term to sum that up other than "mature". I could care less about nudity. I have internet pr0n for that.
Never violate a woman, nor harm a child. Do not lie, cheat or steal. These things are for lesser men. Protect the weak against the evil strong. And never allow thoughts of gain to lead you into the pursuit of evil. Never back away from an enemy. Either fight or surrender. It is not enough to say I will not be evil. Evil must be fought wherever it is found.The Iron Code"
Just reading this thread, this game will have it rough no matter what they do. We're all very picky fans, aren't we?
I agree with you completely. I would be impressed with Conan-calibur graphics. I would accept much less.
My point was not clear. When I said mature I meant that the content was played down in the extreme so they would not have to deal with the hyper violence of the IP.
The world in WAR is a little bit worse than the world in WoW. It's not really bothersome or scarey in any way.
If you read any of the books, the world of W40k is a real horror to live in. The hyper violence is a reaction to the world as it stands.
I want them to try to capture that as opposed to avoiding it like WAR did because of the rating they would get by doing so.
They lost so much of the grittiness in WAR that it wasn't even the IP anymore when they were done.
That's what I mean, I just couldn't think of a term to sum that up other than "mature". I could care less about nudity. I have internet pr0n for that.
I will be the first to admit that I am a poor judge of Warhammer Fantasy. I dislike that setting, there is nothing about the lore that speaks to me in the same way that the 40k setting does.
40k isn't so much scary, as it is desperate. It's a desperate struggle for all these races to survive, constantly at war with one another. I think war should be everywhere in the game, but unless you're an average hive world citizen, there's not much that's scary.
"And they shall know no fear"
And to the guy talking about how he destroys with IG on the tabletop. You could make that argument for any of the races in the game. The simple fact is that you don't win on the table with IG by fighting against the other races with equal numbers. You win through superior firepower and hordes of troops. That's not viable in an MMO setting. They aren't going to give you a leman russ or 30 other infantry NPCs to run around with you to make you equal to everyone else.
On the Eldar front, I would say any aspect warrior is roughly on par with a Space Marine.
Let's be clear here, a fun and balanced game is never going to be true to the IP. There will be sacrifices, for the sake of making a game. What we should be hoping here, are that the sacrifices are small.
Prax
Lore that goes back to 1988. Heck yeah we're picky fans!! I was old enough to appreciate the lore back then. I'm crotchety now and don't want them abusing the lore I've grown to love in my adulthood.
I bet more than half the people on these forums were "born" around the time Warhammer 40k started up. Keep in mind the fantasy side had been going for a while when they chose to start up the space version.
They have a serious set of shoes to fill.
Mythic failed miserably and made me lose all respect for a company, up until WAR that, I actually liked.
Never violate a woman, nor harm a child. Do not lie, cheat or steal. These things are for lesser men. Protect the weak against the evil strong. And never allow thoughts of gain to lead you into the pursuit of evil. Never back away from an enemy. Either fight or surrender. It is not enough to say I will not be evil. Evil must be fought wherever it is found.The Iron Code"
Ever had a squad of marines charged by Banshees or Scorpians. Ive destroyed SM Devastator squads with fewer Reapers. It isnt just stat lines, as I said the Aspects are like specialized versions of marines, in their intended roles they can destroy SMs. SMs are powerful and one of the things that makes them so powerful is they are so versatile, theyre not only really really good, theyre good at everything. That doesnt mean they can beat everyone or that theyre necessarily better than everyone though. A good Eldar player that knows how to use and maneuver his troops will eat up a SM player. Thats why at least until recently Eldar were considered OP on tabletop. Harlequins ftw.
Its not just about stat line, as an IG enthusiast you should appreciate that as much as anyone.
(I should of quoted but bleh hehe)
I have been charged by banshees and charged with them
. I have charged banshees and scorps with my assault squad and wiped them. I actually played Eldar first, since about 3rd edition. I am talking basic stat line SM is better than most everyone. In the books one on one SM kicks everyones ass. The game is all about dice rolls. The space marine is well balanced and can do anything. Eldar are good at what you make them good at, aka aspects. in hand to hand there are few that surpass harlequins except Tyranids now ith whiplash which now give harlies Init 1.
Either way I tend to just turn on the heavy flamers power up the meltas and make sure the promethium isnt at a shortage.
Just love the fluff with the Imperium. The space elves got sold when I joined the Army and bought Tau. When 5ED came out and ruined the Tau I picked up the IG and some Space Wolves which I love to play so far. Nothing like drunk Space Vikings backed up by IG PDF in Apoc.