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General Celestial Steed Mount thread:
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Now, your numbers are getting vague. A LOT? Not bragging about the 10 million now? How many is a LOT?
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
You know even in this situation, I doubt it would be as big an exodus as people like to think. Sure there would be a ton of outcry, after that a majority would probably go back to playing. I could be wrong, sure. However, it's just a game, one epic in a store isn't really going to undermine the entirety of the game.
It may even gain them customers, as there has to be a market for such practices otherwise F2p item shop games would be extinct by now and companies like IGE would have never made a dime.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
whilst I agree 10 dungeons definitely qualifies an expansion,the 10 dungeons being part of a paid expnasion was not a factor in the original exmaple or your reply to it.I beleive the point is that they'll concentrate on releasing those 10 dresses over time to make the extra dollars fromt he 10k at the cost of releasing less content for the 10 million over time.
How many dungeons etc is debatable and unanswerable by anyone but Blizzard or someone privy to their employee structuring and spending.It could be that they'd still create the same amount of "free content" for subscribers that they would of without the introduciton of a cash shop and the cotnent contained within.It could also be that they make significant;ly less to concentrate on generating extra profit via the cash shop instead.No one on these forums will ever be able to conclusibely prove either arguement.
Why are trying to put words into my mouth? Where did I say PvP? I said "advantage over my character". Any advantage, PvP or PvE. I dont want him to be able to wear purples just because he is rich. And when I say "wearing purples" i do not mean the LOOK, I meant he obtained purple items without actually spending any effort other then entering his credit card info.
I am the type of player where I like to do everything and anything from time to time.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor - pre-WW2 genocide.
Dude, are you trying to kill the messenger or the message? Now you are nitpicking my numbers, when the numbers were only given as an example. I could of given you a 100,000,000 number, that changes nothing. The point being is MOST people that are currently playing the game play the game not because they like to dress up their chars, but becuase they like to play the actual game - dungeon crawling, questing, trade crafts, raiding, etc etc. I dont know how else to say that. You keep wearing off from the message and trying to poke holes in irrelevant things.
I am the type of player where I like to do everything and anything from time to time.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor - pre-WW2 genocide.
Your words:
"if suddenly 10 extra bucks a month would give u a 20% more dmg against me"
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
Affect gameplay?
- Race change (the first, easiest to identify gameplay altering mechanic available via cash-shop).
Which was simultaneous with the most popular racials getting nerfed to a point that a min/max'er would desire using the service...
Is it a fluff, physical item in-game? No.
Is it a cash-shop function that affects gameplay? Yes. Hell yes.
That is exactly right, and we're not saying NO to save WoW, because it is already a lost cause. We are saying NO to dissuade the next group of greedy suits who decide to emulate Blizzard and Cryptic, etc.
We can prevent some of the future games from spewing this crap, but the sooner we start saying no, the better the results will be.
So - Stand up, pull up your pants, and walk away.
- MMO_Doubter
the 10 dungeon example was my counterargument for the idea that cashshop with fluf items is a danger to the rest of us. It is not a danger in anyway as long as it sells fluf items only. Furthermore, by spending money and effort on the fluf that is being sold, you cannot say they spent less time on other content. Those 2 issues seem to prevail: -people fear cashshops (any, not just fluf cashshops) are bad and should be stopped; -people are angry that Bliz spent time on paid fluf things when they should of been spending it on real content;
I am the type of player where I like to do everything and anything from time to time.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor - pre-WW2 genocide.
Yeah. Where exactly did I mention PvP?
I am the type of player where I like to do everything and anything from time to time.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor - pre-WW2 genocide.
In a burst situation... like PvP? Bloodfury vs. WotF? Absolutely do those numbers ring true, at the very least in essence.
That is exactly right, and we're not saying NO to save WoW, because it is already a lost cause. We are saying NO to dissuade the next group of greedy suits who decide to emulate Blizzard and Cryptic, etc.
We can prevent some of the future games from spewing this crap, but the sooner we start saying no, the better the results will be.
So - Stand up, pull up your pants, and walk away.
- MMO_Doubter
Well stated Malickie. I'm certain there would be as strong a market for 'real' RMT items as proven by the gold market. Blizzard is obviously aware of how contentious the issue is by keeping RMT to vaniety items. Whether there's some plan to change that in the future, who knows.
Personally, I go back and forth on the issue. I don't mind RMT now, and have even bought a pet, however that may change if the pervasiveness and necessity of RMT items increased to a great extent (to what extent that may be, again, who knows). My barameter will always be 'am I getting my entertainment money's worth or not'.
Overall I think Blizzard has done a decent job of leveling the playing field amoungst various types of players. Gear advantages always went to the people who had time, and now that's been mitigated by both the LFG Tool and reduced instance times. For me the changes were nice, but I can see how people made the decision to leave based on what they felt was a cheaper product. The same will hold true if and when RMT ramps up.
Ultimately the market will decide whether RMT (beyond vaniety items) will be sustainable. Frankly, I've never had an issue with that.
Slippery Slope
Give an inch and they take a mile
When the charity pet was being sold in shops and people cried out at the beginning of the end, the blizzbots told them to shutup it was for charity and was a unique situation. Now that their little test has gone so well ( brilliant move connecting their first cash shop item to charity), they are going to the next phase with full on pets and mounts for sale and once again people so ohh but its just cosmetic...
Yeah and five years from now you will be paying to instantly level your toon to 60 or paying for instant rep as an alternative to grinding.
Some people are either so naive or clueless it amazes me.
I quit during the charity pet thing and I am so very very glad I did. I admit I was thinking about buying catylcysm just for giggles but the heck with that now.
I don't think they'll slip so far they roll headfirst into a wall of spikes. If they get more and more extreme with the cash shop items, more and more people will vocally disagree. Will there always be people who agree with Blizzard no matter what? Of course. But there's a generally accepted line when it comes to cash shop items: as long as they don't affect gameplay. If Blizzard is the first to cross that line, which I doubt, they'll pay for it.
If you equip an orc hunter with the same tools as a troll hunter, would their stats be different? I bet the DPS on their character screen will give the same stats, the same dmg, the same armor. The only difference are the racials which are very very minor. However, and heres the main thing... if you have an orc hunter but want to be a troll hunter, you DONT have to pay! Just make a new one - a troll hunter!
I am the type of player where I like to do everything and anything from time to time.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor - pre-WW2 genocide.
If your counterargument was a paid expansion with 10 dungeons you should of stated so.I personally do not fear cha shops and am willing to play a game with fluff item cash shops.Especially when the fluff items are ludicrously expensive like I myself consider $25 for a mount when there are so many free ones already available....this prevents me form even being temepted to spen dmoney in such a cash shop lol.
No I don't fear cash shops I merely do not trust them becaue they can be easily and subtlely turned into exploitive and game altering cash cows.Doesn't mean it will ever happen in WoW(which I played for 4 years before quitting and have nothing agains tthe game) but it could.
If it does turn exploititive they will likely get away with it though because gamer's are for the most part complacent and willing to put up with jut about anything for their latest chosen fix.I've sene lots of noise and bluster form gamer's before over issues in the industry ,Ubisoft's DRM,L4D2 in a year,COD:MW2 no dedicated servers,cash shops in sub games etc.But when push comes to shove and it's time to vote with their money,they line up,bend over and take it like pros to get their fix.
I disagree. It will happen in phases and with each one there will be ripples of discontent with small waves of people leaving as that particular level of RMT crosses their personal threshold. And these small waves of people will be replaced with drooling sheep who will blindly pay for everything Blizzard or any other company feeds them. Because it will be so gradual that with each generation of gamers coming to fruitation, that new group will be more and more accepting of an RMT trend. Sort of how in society, each generation is alittle more accepting of violence, sex, and so forth.
There is no magical line in the sand. Just lots of mini battles. If you think there will be some alarm that will go off one day when they release that one item that crosses some sort of threshold and then the masses will burn Blizzard down your dreaming.
The only way to stop the slide is to just say NO, NOW, PERIOD.
You either strategically side-stepped the point, or missed it altogether.
Racials have been a huge part of the competitive crowd since launch. The edge of an orc warrior with stun resist compared to a troll warrior with... zerking was a *HUGE* factor when it came to PvP. When priests still had class racials, remember how dwarves were treated compared to any other ally priest? Need I go on?
Here, you talk stats. I'm talking gameplay. Notice the slight of hand you perform?
Racials aren't minor, despite what you claim. Being a tauren hunter compared to a troll or orc (since you want to talk hunters) is drastically playing at a disadvantage.
Sure, you can level up a new one! Aha! But you could just go to the cash-shop and get one immediately for a small price!
When you offer choices of play, but offer the best possible line-up inside of a given category (class and race pairings) accessible via cash, you have in effect altered the gameplay.
That is exactly right, and we're not saying NO to save WoW, because it is already a lost cause. We are saying NO to dissuade the next group of greedy suits who decide to emulate Blizzard and Cryptic, etc.
We can prevent some of the future games from spewing this crap, but the sooner we start saying no, the better the results will be.
So - Stand up, pull up your pants, and walk away.
- MMO_Doubter
RMT will grow its a matter of time and which company turns out to be the boldest with their virutal items sold, im more than sure blizzard is well aware of the amount of financial gain 3rd party sites that provide services like leveling, reputation, gear, gold ..etc.. is being made and yet blizzard see none of it!
Everyone talks about how quick they are to leave if blizzard sells this or that, but they QUICKLY forget how CURRENTLY all those services are and HAVE already been provided for the past few years not to mention all the money that blizzard could have made and the headaches they would have saved had THEY provided the services their selves! Difference? NONE
I thought it was obvious that we were counterargumenting each other in our discussions, thats why they call it discussions. In any case, I am like you - i think 25$ for a mount is a ripoff and anyone who spends money on virtual items is a fool. I never bought any of the pets or items for any game.
Regarding your last paragraph - I disagree. people do not bend over, they leave the game. Thats why you won't see a lot of people in a cash-shop (not a fluff-shop) game - because they did not bent over. And the whole point is kinda moot too because you can't realy compare cash-shop games with subscription games. They are just too different business models. Cash-shop games rely on grind gently forcing players to buy items that would enhance or speed up their gameplay, while subscription games have that cost embedded in the monthly fee. Thats why we won't see Bliz becoming a non-fluf-cash-shop - its not realy that type of game.
I am the type of player where I like to do everything and anything from time to time.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor - pre-WW2 genocide.
You are technically correct here. The gameplay effect is tiny, but it is there. The only reason why Bliz would do this (that I can think of), other then the obvious cash-grab, is to let noobs correct their mistakes of creating a "crippled" character.
Not a great defence, I know. That being said, the issue at hand is a step back for Bliz, not forward. I don't like the idea of changing race for the reasons you stated, but so far they haven't moved in that direction any further. Only time will tell. I have a doubt in my mind now, damn you!
EDIT: formatting and speeling errorrers
I am the type of player where I like to do everything and anything from time to time.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor - pre-WW2 genocide.
Ok just making an example here.
What if I liked playing wow to collect every mount (or pet for that matter) in the game. Now in order to do what I like to do in the game I have to spend extra money. I know that there are people that play the game that like to do those things. I don't see how it would be fair to them to make them spend more money for something they like to do.
Putting a cash shop in a p2p game just seems like a bad trend to start.
Well, then they would only collect the pets that they could earn in game.
Otherwise that seems a bit obsessive compulsive to me.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
If I wasn't right, my mouth would be shut on the issue.
Don't downplay it. The gameplay effect *ISN'T* tiny. Just as people mix/max to find the best synergy in classes to faceroll their comp into 2200+ arena rating, so too do people min/max their class/racials to ensure they are as OP as they can become.
There was no 'mistake', no 'noobishness' of mine when I rolled a troll warrior and achieved a world 30 best dps (at the time). I wanted to play the class with a race that moved in a way that was visually appealling.
What you've failed to either recognize or state, is that when race changes were made available via payment, BLIZZARD CHANGED POPULAR RACIALS WITH A NERFBAT, AND BUFFED LESS POPULAR ONES. I can't outline that enough. WotF which was arguably the most OP racial hordeside, was made into a laughable excuse for a racial in its present state (45sec shared timer with trinket?). Compared to where orcs and blood elves moved, it would be HARD TO ARGUE that Blizzard wasn't *encouraging* people to use their new, cash-shop, service, to get the most competitive edge possible.
In a static environment, racials don't affect stats. In a dynamic environment, having Bloodfury in a spellcleave comp alters everything. In a dynamic environment, having zerking instead of aoe stomp alters everything. Sure, it's just a tiny bit here, tiny bit there: but when you dissect the details, and consider *how they stack together*, those incrimental bonuses aren't additive, they are multiplicative.
Let's argue fluff items all day, when the fact of the matter is: Blizzard has been operating a P2P service with an actively run gamplay-changing cash-shop for a while now.
Here's the question about the cash-shop: if you isolate just racial changes alone, is there a trend that can be identified? In case you haven't noticed, based on my exposed knowledge of the game and its mechanics, that question is entirely rhetoric.
This doesn't even begin to address the issues like population balance with faction change (hi Cho'gall!) or server change and how talented gamers migrations affect the gameplay of those around them. This addresses the most immediate cash-shop gameplay altering function only: racials.
That is exactly right, and we're not saying NO to save WoW, because it is already a lost cause. We are saying NO to dissuade the next group of greedy suits who decide to emulate Blizzard and Cryptic, etc.
We can prevent some of the future games from spewing this crap, but the sooner we start saying no, the better the results will be.
So - Stand up, pull up your pants, and walk away.
- MMO_Doubter
Pruned tings back a bit before we start taking one page per post lol.
In my opinion cash shop Vs Paid Expansions is another argument entirely.That's my only reason for saying you should clarify if that was your argument or if you were arguing 10 dungeons released over time outside of paid expnasions Vs 10 fluff itmes released over time in a cash shop and how one might affect the other,
We will have to disagree wit hthe seocnd part.I tihnk a lot of peopel will threaten to leave but won't when it comes down to it.Oh sure a few will stick to their principles and leave,as I have done in other games,but most people will jsut accept whatever and keep playing.
You are free to beleive Blizard will never isntiture non fluff itme sin a cash shop,just as other's a free to fear that they will slowly do so.Only time will tell who is right.
It's the most beautiful thing i have ever seen.