p.s. no, I wouldn't number EVE amongst the games made by developers who want to make games. It's clearly intended to be a virtual world, not a game. And good on them for it, they've achieved more success than any other virtual world, imho.
Well, if we're talking about 'actual' virtual worlds and not about games that have a virtual world-feel to it, then I'd say Second Life is the most successful one.
And it also points out the difference: all the MMO's like EVE Online are still in their core games, even if Red Dead Redemption or GTA would go massively multiplayer, then it would still be a game. However any MMO feels as a virtual world, they are and remain still games.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Now dont get me wrong, Wow has brought many evils on us, and the least of which is the popularising of the cash shop. In a few years time when MMO developers are telling you that your sub pays for "running costs only" and that if you want the new content you have to buy the patches (relabled as Episodic adventure packs or some other bullshit) then you can lay the blame at blizzard SOE's door.
Well, don't you think that that is exactly the problem many others have with the course Blizzard is taking with WoW. Many people, often WoW players, automatically assume that those who dislike WoW are doing this because of the popularity it has - and maybe some do. But more just don't like the negative impact it has on the genre as a whole, or the course it has taken now compared to what WoW was at the very beginning.
If you want to compare it with music as you did: it's like rock or how rap was at the beginning, it was raw, it had edges, and then compare it with the genre turning into R&B, where each song and videoclip almost looks the same, only a few exceptional but the rest just bland and the same.
Of course no one wants to lose the polish, and Blizzard has set the bar high for others to do better. But it's the negative things that you mentioned that they don't like. There's nothing to do about it, but people don't have to like it.
Oh, I do think though that the first article was a bit too biased against WoW, some broader perspective including other games would have been better. he did mention some valid points and symptoms though.
Originally posted by girlgeek
I think, as the articles both mention, to different degrees, that...as always....businesses are businesses. Their focus is probably to a greater percentage on the money they can make, than on building up the genre itself. I think they're interested in making polished games that cater to, again as the article said, the absolute lowest denominator, so as to draw the most players. And if the "most players" comes from a segment of the population that has never played MMOs before their game, or from those that HAVE....I don't think that so much matters to them as long as they're bringing in the absolute MOST possible income.
I agree, that's what is happening right now.
What i don't get though, and what that other article only partially explained, is how it is that the single player games market seems to be evolving and progressing - even when big money and the hunt for it also permeates that market - while the MMO market seems to have grown stale and hasn't changed much at all the last few years.
I mean, look at games as Red Dead Redemption, Heavy Rain, Alan Wake or an Uncharted 2 or others, those are progressions of their genre, taking the field a step further.
And I also recall the first years after 2000, when innovations followed eachother up rapidly in the MMO market: it felt creative and like they were really pioneering a new genre: UO had a flexible system that gave you a lot of freedom to do what you wanted, it was the first and yet more evolved in some game mechanics than a lot of the current games. Everquest frontiered the 3D MMO, DAoC came up with RvR PvP, Planetside did massive warfare (any other game around that is doing that right now, planetbased?), GuildWars had a skillsystem based upon Magic the Gathering mechanics, the list goes on.
I thought it would have continued like this just as progression did in the single player games-market, but instead the last few years since 2006 have been rather stale and innovativeless compared to before, and it's not as if we've reached a pinnacle. Only now a number of games are coming that seem to breathe some highly needed fresh air into the genre. I hope it can put the energy and ambition into the MMO market that it has been missing.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Ok I'd like to add my own input on one of these points, just my opinion so take it with a grain of salt.
Also while I use the word mature a lot in my post I don't think it's the best or entirely correct word but I can't think of one that is better.
"One day these young gimme now gamers will mature and want a true deep MMO like us more mature people want, then it will be time for a revolution where these games will thrive."
I don't see this happening. Some of them may mature and join us in a search for a deep MMO (hell I could be classed as one of them being only 21) but the vast majority of them will either keep looking at games for shallow thrills or mature out of games and develop the opinion they are only for kids/shallow fun. Trying to argue against this sorta opinion is a whole other can of worms, especially as a lot of these games are designed like they are aimed at children. Sitting back and hoping that somehow all of these parts of society will radically change to better suite your view of the world is rather foolish.
The reason I say this is cause I also love anime, and it has had a sorta similar treatment. In anime you have a lot of mainstream anime that have been dumbed down, filled with 2 dimensional characters and stuffed with filler after filler after filler. Basically they are to anime what WoW is to MMO's. The difference is in anime we are into our second generation of generic crap, the first generation being Pokemon & DBZ the second being Naruto & bleach. Just like the MMO's these anime last a long long time (pokemon is still running I think) they also tended to start out good then get recycled and reused for as long as they can bring in a profit, and in the case of DBZ hollywood got to defile it's corpse.
Like games anime are also seen as by many as being a thing for kids or just something that is only for a certain audience. Despite the presence of plenty of good, deep anime that could be enjoyed by anyone, honestly they will never get mainstream, as people have got it in their heads the way they should be and they don't expect them to go beyond that.
I think the best chance for the deep virtual world mmo's is in games like EVE. Games where the developers have a love for games not for the money it can make them. WoW and it's anime equivelants will always have their place and a rather large number of fans they also are very well made in their own way. I think we need to focus less on our competition and more on ourselves and what we want to see in this deep virtual mode MMO that will be our personal revolution.
I agree with most of what Wolfshead say: We do need a big change with the MMOs.
But I don't think most people solo because they can. I think the problem is that the group play isn't as good as it should be. Grouping is rather fun but it could be a lot better, the group dynamic you get by tank, spank, heal, CC and buff isn't good enough anymore.
Honestly, what's the alternative? Holy trinity is original, for sure, but what is a better option?
People play the way they think is most fun.
We need a MMO where grouping truly is fun, like when you play a pen and paper RPG, doing that yourself with a gm isn't fun. Being 4-6 people really is. Where each player truly give as much as they take.
I think there is a lot we can learn from P & P games, hopefully will CCP/white wolf make something around those lines.
The genre could sure use an infusion of talent from the P&P area.
I personally would love a historical game without mages and healers, no holy triad and a better ai.
So, you want permadeath as well?
I agree about the mob AI, but most players don't want a challenge.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
Shame on you for acting like you had a good, in-depth read.
what about it was so amazing? sounded like a normal "WoW killed my parents" thread.
Rather shame on YOU, for trying to tell ME what I personally gleaned from those TWO articles (you only mention one, so I'm assuming you stopped reading when you saw something negative about WoW). The second article has absolutely NOTHING to do with WoW, and the first one is not ONLY about WoW. And in my opinion, they are BOTH a great read. If you have something you'd like to share...this is a forum....post YOUR idea of a great read.
I can also assume that you didn't read any of the thread, as it's NOT all "WoW killed my parents," as you put it. The problem with MMOs today, for those of us that see/believe that there is one, is multi-faceted, and NO problem is all one person's (or company's) "fault," if there is even any "blame" to be placed.
I posted an article for the sake of conversation, both in agreement with it, and in opposition. If you oppose the views of the author....feel free to say why. That's what forums are for.
Velika: City of Wheels: Among the mortal races, the humans were the only one that never built cities or great empires; a curse laid upon them by their creator, Gidd, forced them to wander as nomads for twenty centuries...
I think, as the articles both mention, to different degrees, that...as always....businesses are businesses. Their focus is probably to a greater percentage on the money they can make, than on building up the genre itself. I think they're interested in making polished games that cater to, again as the article said, the absolute lowest denominator, so as to draw the most players. And if the "most players" comes from a segment of the population that has never played MMOs before their game, or from those that HAVE....I don't think that so much matters to them as long as they're bringing in the absolute MOST possible income.
I agree, that's what is happening right now.
What i don't get though, and what that other article only partially explained, is how it is that the single player games market seems to be evolving and progressing - even when big money and the hunt for it also permeates that market - while the MMO market seems to have grown stale and hasn't changed much at all the last few years.
I mean, look at games as Red Dead Redemption, Heavy Rain, Alan Wake or an Uncharted 2 or others, those are progressions of their genre, taking the field a step further.
And I also recall the first years after 2000, when innovations followed eachother up rapidly in the MMO market: it felt creative and like they were really pioneering a new genre: UO had a flexible system that gave you a lot of freedom to do what you wanted, it was the first and yet more evolved in some game mechanics than a lot of the current games. Everquest frontiered the 3D MMO, DAoC came up with RvR PvP, Planetside did massive warfare (any other game around that is doing that right now, planetbased?), GuildWars had a skillsystem based upon Magic the Gathering mechanics, the list goes on.
I thought it would have continued like this just as progression did in the single player games-market, but instead the last few years since 2006 have been rather stale and innovativeless compared to before, and it's not as if we've reached a pinnacle. Only now a number of games are coming that seem to breathe some highly needed fresh air into the genre. I hope it can put the energy and ambition into the MMO market that it has been missing.
I think its mainly due to the fact that the MMO genre is still 'New Waters' for a lot of companies in the video game industry. Right now its that era in the late 80's where almost every game that came out was a side scroller platform game that played like Mario. All these dev houses are going to stick with what works for now. And right now what 'works' in their eyes is WoW.
Before WoW you had many different games in the genre, each holding numbers close to EQ, so most games followed that formula while others experimented with something different. Back then getting 200k players was great for investors and the companies that made the games. That all changed when WoW hit.
Now everyone has jumped on the 'Follow WoW!' bandwagon.
I mean if say EvE managed to nail like 2 million concurrent subscriptions, we would probably see a ton of new MMOs that mimic EvE.
Until we get some brave company that can make an MMO as polished as WoW was but totally different in respect to gameplay as well as breaching the 1 million concurrent subscriptions in say NA, all the big names will continue to rehash the same 'safe' MMO.
There are 3 types of people in the world. 1.) Those who make things happen 2.) Those who watch things happen 3.) And those who wonder "What the %#*& just happened?!"
I mean if say EvE managed to nail like 2 million concurrent subscriptions, we would probably see a ton of new MMOs that mimic EvE.
Until we get some brave company that can make an MMO as polished as WoW was but totally different in respect to gameplay as well as breaching the 1 million concurrent subscriptions in say NA, all the big names will continue to rehash the same 'safe' MMO.
I think what you said right there...is dead on....every word, imo.
Niche is the future indeed. Or at least independent is the future... no progression will be made with the publisher ball and chain attached.
Doesn't even have to be targetting a niche market, it just has to be small and well polished. If a game has good infrastructure (where you've coded in 'cement' well), you can expand upon it and make a full, solid game (lots of floors made of well coded 'cement')
Take WoW's combat system... works very well. Very few notable bugs. At this point (had they not turned it into an E-sport with arenas and stuff...) they could be adding classes and races and stuff. And that would be rad, because they would all work well with no notable bugs.
I am playing EVE and it's alright... level V skills are a bit much.
Before WoW you had many different games in the genre, each holding numbers close to EQ, so most games followed that formula while others experimented with something different. Back then getting 200k players was great for investors and the companies that made the games. That all changed when WoW hit.
Now everyone has jumped on the 'Follow WoW!' bandwagon.
Many different games?
You honestly believe there were more MMOs doing more different things pre-November 2004 than there are now?
Before WoW you had many different games in the genre, each holding numbers close to EQ, so most games followed that formula while others experimented with something different. Back then getting 200k players was great for investors and the companies that made the games. That all changed when WoW hit.
Now everyone has jumped on the 'Follow WoW!' bandwagon.
Many different games?
You honestly believe there were more MMOs doing more different things pre-November 2004 than there are now?
Look at the games before 2004.
We had skill based games, level based games, level + skill based games. Each game while maybe being similar also offered something different from the others. EQ focused more on dungeon crawling and co-op style play where DAoC focused more on realm warfare and faction play. Asherons Call expanded more off the UO style gameplay while borrowing some elements of the EQ style game. Anarchy Online added the use of flying mounts, instancing, land control and dungeon crawling/raiding along with elements of a skill system borrowed from UO and AC. SWG also took elements of UO and expanded upon it by adding in features from EQ and other games. City of Heroes went in a totally different direction and created an action based quest/mission system. EvE went with their evil graphical spreadsheet style gameplay (I kid!).
Thing is each game that happened back then attempted to improve on elements of other games while still adding features unseen up till then. Once WoW became popular almost every MMO to follow has looked and felt just like it. From world design to UI to character progression, each game that has come out since, specially from the big name devs, has been nothing but WoW in a new skin. The only games that I can think of that have come out recently that are nothing like WoW are games like FE and Darkfall... games that were made by devs who worked with next to no budget.
So if you choose to gloss over the fact that the genre has forsaken innovation for repetition since November 2004, thats your choice. I and many others know that before 11/2004 MMOs, while similar in many ways, tried to make themselves stand out by being different.
There are 3 types of people in the world. 1.) Those who make things happen 2.) Those who watch things happen 3.) And those who wonder "What the %#*& just happened?!"
The only games that I can think of that have come out recently that are nothing like WoW are games like FE and Darkfall... games that were made by devs who worked with next to no budget.
I get the feeling that you haven't played that many of the 400-odd games listed on the left-hand side of this site's layout.
I also get the feeling that you have a remarkably loose definition of "nothing but WoW in a new skin."
Look, I don't deny there are some derivative and lame attempts at a cash-in out there (like, say, Alganon). And I don't deny that there are games that put out some good polish but don't really aspire to do anything terribly different (like, say, LOTRO and Aion). But when you compare the hundreds of titles out now to the handful that existing before WoW exploded the market, I think the only way you can say "there was more variety back then" is if you're totally burned out on the genre.
Yes, another thread (OP) that really serves up whats wrong with the genre and why the last 4 years of mmorpgs has been lack-luster; proven.
But sure enough, a WoW enthusiasts, a circus ole themepark fanatic will come here who has grandeur of defeating the Lich King or is in awe of those that have spent countless hours bashing hordes of pve mobs to feel heroic while making their way to the final boss piñata to spam a series of buttons in that room and tell ya why your wrong here.
Yet another "Its my way or the wrong way" poster.
Well if that isnt the pot calling the kettle black, I dont know what is. See; im a regular nostradamus.
Considering OP who wrote this topic started the discussion just to show how 'his way of thinking is right one' i don't know how you can say 'pot kettle back' to those who disagree? afetr reading the article i don't even think the writer is open minded enough to accept any viewpoints from other side of the fence.
Sad part is that the games that you guys want are already here. They are not WOW clones yet no one is playing them? why? why not support games like Xyson, FE, Mortal Online, Ryzom etc instead of moaning about how WOW is evil incarnated? Rysom has already been ressructed twice due to lack of players support and FE devs were fired to keep the cost down. Maybe you guys need to play more and moan less?
Well, first of all....I didn't start the discussion to say that my way of thinking is the "right one." I started it because I actually found the article(s) INTERESTING in some of the things they said. If you disagree with the articles...tell us why. That's the whole point of discussion....sharing like views AND opposing ones.
Secondly...I'm not a "he."
Tell you what? all i got was WOW is bad, WOW is evil and so on. Topics like these are posted here every single day. And i mentioned earlier that games WOW haters want are already here but still no one is eager to support them. Why? its because the only good MMORPG exists is in your head. Players make this perfect picture of their dream MMO and forget about realistic approach to the grenre. Thats why that 'perfect MMO' will never exist because it will never be as good as the one which is in your head.
Also when i said OP i was talking about the 'original poster' who wrote that childish topic. And i know you are not he, i think the tag 'girl geek' kinda gives it away.
The only games that I can think of that have come out recently that are nothing like WoW are games like FE and Darkfall... games that were made by devs who worked with next to no budget.
I get the feeling that you haven't played that many of the 400-odd games listed on the left-hand side of this site's layout.
I also get the feeling that you have a remarkably loose definition of "nothing but WoW in a new skin."
Look, I don't deny there are some derivative and lame attempts at a cash-in out there (like, say, Alganon). And I don't deny that there are games that put out some good polish but don't really aspire to do anything terribly different (like, say, LOTRO and Aion). But when you compare the hundreds of titles out now to the handful that existing before WoW exploded the market, I think the only way you can say "there was more variety back then" is if you're totally burned out on the genre.
Most of the games featured in the list on this site are Asian FTP/Item mall games, which I avoid like the plague because I know exactly where the game ends up going. And if you look at those games, a vast majority of them are almost an exact clone of the others (mostly due to the fact its the same company pumping them out). Sure there are a few odd ball games there, but nothing really worth noting. Thats why I never count Asian MMOs.
When I talk about MMOs, I'm talking about the big name games, the ones who run with a subscription. And when it comes to subscription based MMOs, You name it and I have probably played it.
Thing is, I never said "there was more vaiety back then". What I said is that while each game might have shared similarities with other games in the genre, they all strived to be differnent enough from each other. Each game brought in its own innovations while building on standards set by other companies. That all seemed to go to pot when everyone and their brother in western game development started cloning WoW. Innovation has been replaced with repetition, and it shows.
There are 3 types of people in the world. 1.) Those who make things happen 2.) Those who watch things happen 3.) And those who wonder "What the %#*& just happened?!"
Innovation? . Warhammer was different from WoW. Warhammer had RvR. Age of Conan is different from WoW. AoC has an adult theme. . LotRO is different from WoW. LotRO has unique classes and little PvP. LotRO is more like EQ2. . What do you want? SWG and UO wouldn't make it in todays market. . Second Life is different from WoW. . What is that turn based MMO, it's different. . Runequest is like the third biggest MMO in the world. It's different from WoW. . Dofus is popular. . Aion has forced PvP at certain levels. Aion has a lot of character customization. . I think market innovation is just fine. The thing that holds innovation back in MMOs is that MMOs cost truck loads of money to make, like 50 million plus. That kind of cash makes people risk adverse.
Cataclysm means the end of current existance and restart from the beginning. No we don't need that, we need evolution.
"Traditionally, massively multiplier online games have been about three basic gameplay pillars combat, exploration and character progression. In Alganon, in addition to these we've added the fourth pillar to the equation: Copy & Paste."
Warhammer was different from WoW. Warhammer had RvR. Age of Conan is different from WoW. AoC has an adult theme.
.
LotRO is different from WoW. LotRO has unique classes and little PvP. LotRO is more like EQ2.
.
What do you want? SWG and UO wouldn't make it in todays market.
.
Second Life is different from WoW.
.
What is that turn based MMO, it's different.
.
Runequest is like the third biggest MMO in the world. It's different from WoW.
.
Dofus is popular.
.
Aion has forced PvP at certain levels. Aion has a lot of character customization.
.
I think market innovation is just fine. The thing that holds innovation back in MMOs is that MMOs cost truck loads of money to make, like 50 million plus. That kind of cash makes people risk adverse.
Nothing mentioned above is 'Innovation'
There are 3 types of people in the world. 1.) Those who make things happen 2.) Those who watch things happen 3.) And those who wonder "What the %#*& just happened?!"
Warhammer was different from WoW. Warhammer had RvR. Age of Conan is different from WoW. AoC has an adult theme.
.
LotRO is different from WoW. LotRO has unique classes and little PvP. LotRO is more like EQ2.
.
What do you want? SWG and UO wouldn't make it in todays market.
.
Second Life is different from WoW.
.
What is that turn based MMO, it's different.
.
Runequest is like the third biggest MMO in the world. It's different from WoW.
.
Dofus is popular.
.
Aion has forced PvP at certain levels. Aion has a lot of character customization.
.
I think market innovation is just fine. The thing that holds innovation back in MMOs is that MMOs cost truck loads of money to make, like 50 million plus. That kind of cash makes people risk adverse.
What you say is indeed one of the major issues, I think: the more money that's needed to make a MMO, the more risk averse companies become. It works like that in movies as well in games.
Now, there's always some innovation. But if I'm thinking of innovation then I'm thinking of introducing a realm vs realm combat as DAoC, or massive warfare in the style of a Planetside, or the tactical skill based system of a GW. Heck, when it comes to innovation then the steps ANet is taking from GW to GW2 that's real innovation and steps forward in my eyes. Or TSW with its level-less/class-less system and introduction of a horror/urban fantasy theme.
Maybe the number of MMO's before 2005 were a fragment of the ones today. But the range of diversity in gameplay mechanics was larger back then than the diversity you see now between the current MMO games now.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
It says exactly why Mmorpgs are in this state. And another problem is that no big company will risk by creating something innovative, they love their money far too much to do such a thing. And the small ones dont have the budget to create it or they will create a half-good game
Permadeath is an interesting idea i would love to see but (Permadeath+Kid= 2x angry german kid ) lol
Copying WoW and addint 1 new feature isnt innovation...
Why wow lovers cant see anything outside wow? This thread is about the current state of mmorpgs and that WoW has played a part in it.
These articles points why mmorpg are on this state and what part wow played in it, and wow lovers the only thing they can say is "Omg another wow hating thread, wow is awesome"
Nice argument lol. Maybe you should start thinking abouts some valid points instead of calling everyone who said something bad about wow a hater.
This "article" is nothing more than the usual rant against Blizzard from yet another mmorpg.com member no doubt.
All this because one company created something which is very popular and made mmoRPG's come out of the dark niche rooms of Dungeon and Dragons computer basement dwellers.
I play AD&D pen & paper ever week and no computer game can bring in the excitement when I enter a dungeon with my miniature.
At the same time I didn't find another mmorpg with the same fun as WOW in 10 years.
Apparently I am not alone. Something has to be fixed in these heads above : have fun instead of trolling a succesful game.
In fact the OP of this thread is just doing this: trolling and promoting the usual spitting on Blizzard.
It has become one of the main features of this site. Shame on you all.
Its embarrassing when an NPC compliments you in an MMo, the only relevant, cool and epic things come from players whispering you Grtz, mate, we did it. copyright Pilnkplonk
p.s. no, I wouldn't number EVE amongst the games made by developers who want to make games. It's clearly intended to be a virtual world, not a game. And good on them for it, they've achieved more success than any other virtual world, imho.
Well, if we're talking about 'actual' virtual worlds and not about games that have a virtual world-feel to it, then I'd say Second Life is the most successful one.
And it also points out the difference: all the MMO's like EVE Online are still in their core games, even if Red Dead Redemption or GTA would go massively multiplayer, then it would still be a game. However any MMO feels as a virtual world, they are and remain still games.
It's probably safer to say that there's a Game world <---> Virtual World continuum, and that EVE lies further to the right than most - but by no means all - MMOs, whereas WoW is much further to the left.
This "article" is nothing more than the usual rant against Blizzard from yet another mmorpg.com member no doubt.
Is Wolfshead an MMORPG.com member? If he is....I wasn't aware of that. I happen to sub to the RS Feed of his blog and got this article in my email inbox. I shared it, because I thought it made some good points. I don't HATE WoW. I think people who "LOVE" WoW, toss the hate word around an awfully lot.
I have been playing MMOs, and games in general, from long long before WoW. And I, personally, have noticed many changes in the genre, some good and some NOT so good, since the release of WoW. You're welcome to disagree with that...that's what forums are for. But to call me a troll for posting an article for discussion on the general forums...is simply rude and maybe a bit childish. I did not write the article, but I am interested in what the future holds for the genre because it's my favorite genre.
Blizzard and WoW are not the source of all evil in the genre, and I don't think everyone is saying that (although, I"m sure some think so and say so). If there are things in the articles I posted that you personally disagree with....share! I want to hear what everyone thinks...we don't all have to AGREE for it to be a good conversation.
All this because one company created something which is very popular and made mmoRPG's come out of the dark niche rooms of Dungeon and Dragons computer basement dwellers.
I play AD&D pen & paper ever week and no computer game can bring in the excitement when I enter a dungeon with my miniature.
At the same time I didn't find another mmorpg with the same fun as WOW in 10 years.
That is GREAT for you! But everyone's mileage differs. We don't ALL have to like and/or play ONE game. Make room for other peoples' opinions. That doesn't mean you have to agree with them. I certainly do not agree with what just everyone thinks of the MMOs that I play. But this thread isn't even ABOUT "this game is better than that game" stuff...it's about what some see/believe has happened to the MMO genre, what direction it seems to be heading, where it used to be, and what might affect its direction in years to come.....
Apparently I am not alone. Something has to be fixed in these heads above : have fun instead of trolling a succesful game.
How is anyone trolling a game. We are having a civil discussion in the GENERAL forums, not WoW's forums....??? Perhaps you need to re-read the site definition of trolling.
In fact the OP of this thread is just doing this: trolling and promoting the usual spitting on Blizzard.
It has become one of the main features of this site. Shame on you all.
*sigh* There are plenty of negative comments and posts about every game made on this site. Perhaps it seems there are a lot more about WoW because those stand out to you, or maybe there really are. Either way....this thread was not intended to be ANTI-WoW but rather PRO-MMO design, development, and growth, and was intended to stimulate conversation.
Comments
Fantastic article! Thank you for posting OP. I agree on every single part. Was a very good read and was well written. Thank you.
Well, if we're talking about 'actual' virtual worlds and not about games that have a virtual world-feel to it, then I'd say Second Life is the most successful one.
And it also points out the difference: all the MMO's like EVE Online are still in their core games, even if Red Dead Redemption or GTA would go massively multiplayer, then it would still be a game. However any MMO feels as a virtual world, they are and remain still games.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Well, don't you think that that is exactly the problem many others have with the course Blizzard is taking with WoW. Many people, often WoW players, automatically assume that those who dislike WoW are doing this because of the popularity it has - and maybe some do. But more just don't like the negative impact it has on the genre as a whole, or the course it has taken now compared to what WoW was at the very beginning.
If you want to compare it with music as you did: it's like rock or how rap was at the beginning, it was raw, it had edges, and then compare it with the genre turning into R&B, where each song and videoclip almost looks the same, only a few exceptional but the rest just bland and the same.
Of course no one wants to lose the polish, and Blizzard has set the bar high for others to do better. But it's the negative things that you mentioned that they don't like. There's nothing to do about it, but people don't have to like it.
Oh, I do think though that the first article was a bit too biased against WoW, some broader perspective including other games would have been better. he did mention some valid points and symptoms though.
I agree, that's what is happening right now.
What i don't get though, and what that other article only partially explained, is how it is that the single player games market seems to be evolving and progressing - even when big money and the hunt for it also permeates that market - while the MMO market seems to have grown stale and hasn't changed much at all the last few years.
I mean, look at games as Red Dead Redemption, Heavy Rain, Alan Wake or an Uncharted 2 or others, those are progressions of their genre, taking the field a step further.
And I also recall the first years after 2000, when innovations followed eachother up rapidly in the MMO market: it felt creative and like they were really pioneering a new genre: UO had a flexible system that gave you a lot of freedom to do what you wanted, it was the first and yet more evolved in some game mechanics than a lot of the current games. Everquest frontiered the 3D MMO, DAoC came up with RvR PvP, Planetside did massive warfare (any other game around that is doing that right now, planetbased?), GuildWars had a skillsystem based upon Magic the Gathering mechanics, the list goes on.
I thought it would have continued like this just as progression did in the single player games-market, but instead the last few years since 2006 have been rather stale and innovativeless compared to before, and it's not as if we've reached a pinnacle. Only now a number of games are coming that seem to breathe some highly needed fresh air into the genre. I hope it can put the energy and ambition into the MMO market that it has been missing.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
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Wow! What happened around November 2004!?
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Did war break out or something?
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Possibly a plague?
Well shave my back and call me an elf! -- Oghren
Ok I'd like to add my own input on one of these points, just my opinion so take it with a grain of salt.
Also while I use the word mature a lot in my post I don't think it's the best or entirely correct word but I can't think of one that is better.
"One day these young gimme now gamers will mature and want a true deep MMO like us more mature people want, then it will be time for a revolution where these games will thrive."
I don't see this happening. Some of them may mature and join us in a search for a deep MMO (hell I could be classed as one of them being only 21) but the vast majority of them will either keep looking at games for shallow thrills or mature out of games and develop the opinion they are only for kids/shallow fun. Trying to argue against this sorta opinion is a whole other can of worms, especially as a lot of these games are designed like they are aimed at children. Sitting back and hoping that somehow all of these parts of society will radically change to better suite your view of the world is rather foolish.
The reason I say this is cause I also love anime, and it has had a sorta similar treatment. In anime you have a lot of mainstream anime that have been dumbed down, filled with 2 dimensional characters and stuffed with filler after filler after filler. Basically they are to anime what WoW is to MMO's. The difference is in anime we are into our second generation of generic crap, the first generation being Pokemon & DBZ the second being Naruto & bleach. Just like the MMO's these anime last a long long time (pokemon is still running I think) they also tended to start out good then get recycled and reused for as long as they can bring in a profit, and in the case of DBZ hollywood got to defile it's corpse.
Like games anime are also seen as by many as being a thing for kids or just something that is only for a certain audience. Despite the presence of plenty of good, deep anime that could be enjoyed by anyone, honestly they will never get mainstream, as people have got it in their heads the way they should be and they don't expect them to go beyond that.
"If evolution doesn't work, maybe revolution will?"
I think the best chance for the deep virtual world mmo's is in games like EVE. Games where the developers have a love for games not for the money it can make them. WoW and it's anime equivelants will always have their place and a rather large number of fans they also are very well made in their own way. I think we need to focus less on our competition and more on ourselves and what we want to see in this deep virtual mode MMO that will be our personal revolution.
Into the breach meatbags
So, you want permadeath as well?
I agree about the mob AI, but most players don't want a challenge.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
Rather shame on YOU, for trying to tell ME what I personally gleaned from those TWO articles (you only mention one, so I'm assuming you stopped reading when you saw something negative about WoW). The second article has absolutely NOTHING to do with WoW, and the first one is not ONLY about WoW. And in my opinion, they are BOTH a great read. If you have something you'd like to share...this is a forum....post YOUR idea of a great read.
I can also assume that you didn't read any of the thread, as it's NOT all "WoW killed my parents," as you put it. The problem with MMOs today, for those of us that see/believe that there is one, is multi-faceted, and NO problem is all one person's (or company's) "fault," if there is even any "blame" to be placed.
I posted an article for the sake of conversation, both in agreement with it, and in opposition. If you oppose the views of the author....feel free to say why. That's what forums are for.
President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club
+1 OP. This thread rings true.
Velika: City of Wheels: Among the mortal races, the humans were the only one that never built cities or great empires; a curse laid upon them by their creator, Gidd, forced them to wander as nomads for twenty centuries...
I think its mainly due to the fact that the MMO genre is still 'New Waters' for a lot of companies in the video game industry. Right now its that era in the late 80's where almost every game that came out was a side scroller platform game that played like Mario. All these dev houses are going to stick with what works for now. And right now what 'works' in their eyes is WoW.
Before WoW you had many different games in the genre, each holding numbers close to EQ, so most games followed that formula while others experimented with something different. Back then getting 200k players was great for investors and the companies that made the games. That all changed when WoW hit.
Now everyone has jumped on the 'Follow WoW!' bandwagon.
I mean if say EvE managed to nail like 2 million concurrent subscriptions, we would probably see a ton of new MMOs that mimic EvE.
Until we get some brave company that can make an MMO as polished as WoW was but totally different in respect to gameplay as well as breaching the 1 million concurrent subscriptions in say NA, all the big names will continue to rehash the same 'safe' MMO.
There are 3 types of people in the world.
1.) Those who make things happen
2.) Those who watch things happen
3.) And those who wonder "What the %#*& just happened?!"
I think what you said right there...is dead on....every word, imo.
President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club
Niche is the future indeed. Or at least independent is the future... no progression will be made with the publisher ball and chain attached.
Doesn't even have to be targetting a niche market, it just has to be small and well polished. If a game has good infrastructure (where you've coded in 'cement' well), you can expand upon it and make a full, solid game (lots of floors made of well coded 'cement')
Take WoW's combat system... works very well. Very few notable bugs. At this point (had they not turned it into an E-sport with arenas and stuff...) they could be adding classes and races and stuff. And that would be rad, because they would all work well with no notable bugs.
I am playing EVE and it's alright... level V skills are a bit much.
You all need to learn to spell.
Many different games?
You honestly believe there were more MMOs doing more different things pre-November 2004 than there are now?
Look at the games before 2004.
We had skill based games, level based games, level + skill based games. Each game while maybe being similar also offered something different from the others. EQ focused more on dungeon crawling and co-op style play where DAoC focused more on realm warfare and faction play. Asherons Call expanded more off the UO style gameplay while borrowing some elements of the EQ style game. Anarchy Online added the use of flying mounts, instancing, land control and dungeon crawling/raiding along with elements of a skill system borrowed from UO and AC. SWG also took elements of UO and expanded upon it by adding in features from EQ and other games. City of Heroes went in a totally different direction and created an action based quest/mission system. EvE went with their evil graphical spreadsheet style gameplay (I kid!).
Thing is each game that happened back then attempted to improve on elements of other games while still adding features unseen up till then. Once WoW became popular almost every MMO to follow has looked and felt just like it. From world design to UI to character progression, each game that has come out since, specially from the big name devs, has been nothing but WoW in a new skin. The only games that I can think of that have come out recently that are nothing like WoW are games like FE and Darkfall... games that were made by devs who worked with next to no budget.
So if you choose to gloss over the fact that the genre has forsaken innovation for repetition since November 2004, thats your choice. I and many others know that before 11/2004 MMOs, while similar in many ways, tried to make themselves stand out by being different.
There are 3 types of people in the world.
1.) Those who make things happen
2.) Those who watch things happen
3.) And those who wonder "What the %#*& just happened?!"
I get the feeling that you haven't played that many of the 400-odd games listed on the left-hand side of this site's layout.
I also get the feeling that you have a remarkably loose definition of "nothing but WoW in a new skin."
Look, I don't deny there are some derivative and lame attempts at a cash-in out there (like, say, Alganon). And I don't deny that there are games that put out some good polish but don't really aspire to do anything terribly different (like, say, LOTRO and Aion). But when you compare the hundreds of titles out now to the handful that existing before WoW exploded the market, I think the only way you can say "there was more variety back then" is if you're totally burned out on the genre.
Tell you what? all i got was WOW is bad, WOW is evil and so on. Topics like these are posted here every single day. And i mentioned earlier that games WOW haters want are already here but still no one is eager to support them. Why? its because the only good MMORPG exists is in your head. Players make this perfect picture of their dream MMO and forget about realistic approach to the grenre. Thats why that 'perfect MMO' will never exist because it will never be as good as the one which is in your head.
Also when i said OP i was talking about the 'original poster' who wrote that childish topic. And i know you are not he, i think the tag 'girl geek' kinda gives it away.
Most of the games featured in the list on this site are Asian FTP/Item mall games, which I avoid like the plague because I know exactly where the game ends up going. And if you look at those games, a vast majority of them are almost an exact clone of the others (mostly due to the fact its the same company pumping them out). Sure there are a few odd ball games there, but nothing really worth noting. Thats why I never count Asian MMOs.
When I talk about MMOs, I'm talking about the big name games, the ones who run with a subscription. And when it comes to subscription based MMOs, You name it and I have probably played it.
Thing is, I never said "there was more vaiety back then". What I said is that while each game might have shared similarities with other games in the genre, they all strived to be differnent enough from each other. Each game brought in its own innovations while building on standards set by other companies. That all seemed to go to pot when everyone and their brother in western game development started cloning WoW. Innovation has been replaced with repetition, and it shows.
There are 3 types of people in the world.
1.) Those who make things happen
2.) Those who watch things happen
3.) And those who wonder "What the %#*& just happened?!"
Innovation?
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Warhammer was different from WoW. Warhammer had RvR. Age of Conan is different from WoW. AoC has an adult theme.
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LotRO is different from WoW. LotRO has unique classes and little PvP. LotRO is more like EQ2.
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What do you want? SWG and UO wouldn't make it in todays market.
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Second Life is different from WoW.
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What is that turn based MMO, it's different.
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Runequest is like the third biggest MMO in the world. It's different from WoW.
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Dofus is popular.
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Aion has forced PvP at certain levels. Aion has a lot of character customization.
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I think market innovation is just fine. The thing that holds innovation back in MMOs is that MMOs cost truck loads of money to make, like 50 million plus. That kind of cash makes people risk adverse.
Well shave my back and call me an elf! -- Oghren
Cataclysm means the end of current existance and restart from the beginning. No we don't need that, we need evolution.
"Traditionally, massively multiplier online games have been about three basic gameplay pillars combat, exploration and character progression. In Alganon, in addition to these we've added the fourth pillar to the equation: Copy & Paste."
Nothing mentioned above is 'Innovation'
There are 3 types of people in the world.
1.) Those who make things happen
2.) Those who watch things happen
3.) And those who wonder "What the %#*& just happened?!"
I like the idea of servers wipeout. But that will make many to cancel their sub.
What you say is indeed one of the major issues, I think: the more money that's needed to make a MMO, the more risk averse companies become. It works like that in movies as well in games.
Now, there's always some innovation. But if I'm thinking of innovation then I'm thinking of introducing a realm vs realm combat as DAoC, or massive warfare in the style of a Planetside, or the tactical skill based system of a GW. Heck, when it comes to innovation then the steps ANet is taking from GW to GW2 that's real innovation and steps forward in my eyes. Or TSW with its level-less/class-less system and introduction of a horror/urban fantasy theme.
Maybe the number of MMO's before 2005 were a fragment of the ones today. But the range of diversity in gameplay mechanics was larger back then than the diversity you see now between the current MMO games now.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Totally agree with both articles.
It says exactly why Mmorpgs are in this state. And another problem is that no big company will risk by creating something innovative, they love their money far too much to do such a thing. And the small ones dont have the budget to create it or they will create a half-good game
Permadeath is an interesting idea i would love to see but (Permadeath+Kid= 2x angry german kid ) lol
Copying WoW and addint 1 new feature isnt innovation...
Why wow lovers cant see anything outside wow? This thread is about the current state of mmorpgs and that WoW has played a part in it.
These articles points why mmorpg are on this state and what part wow played in it, and wow lovers the only thing they can say is "Omg another wow hating thread, wow is awesome"
Nice argument lol. Maybe you should start thinking abouts some valid points instead of calling everyone who said something bad about wow a hater.
This "article" is nothing more than the usual rant against Blizzard from yet another mmorpg.com member no doubt.
All this because one company created something which is very popular and made mmoRPG's come out of the dark niche rooms of Dungeon and Dragons computer basement dwellers.
I play AD&D pen & paper ever week and no computer game can bring in the excitement when I enter a dungeon with my miniature.
At the same time I didn't find another mmorpg with the same fun as WOW in 10 years.
Apparently I am not alone. Something has to be fixed in these heads above : have fun instead of trolling a succesful game.
In fact the OP of this thread is just doing this: trolling and promoting the usual spitting on Blizzard.
It has become one of the main features of this site. Shame on you all.
Its embarrassing when an NPC compliments you in an MMo, the only relevant, cool and epic things come from players whispering you Grtz, mate, we did it. copyright Pilnkplonk
It's probably safer to say that there's a Game world <---> Virtual World continuum, and that EVE lies further to the right than most - but by no means all - MMOs, whereas WoW is much further to the left.
Give me liberty or give me lasers
President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club