Tell you what? all i got was WOW is bad, WOW is evil and so on. Topics like these are posted here every single day. And i mentioned earlier that games WOW haters want are already here but still no one is eager to support them. Why? its because the only good MMORPG exists is in your head. Players make this perfect picture of their dream MMO and forget about realistic approach to the grenre. Thats why that 'perfect MMO' will never exist because it will never be as good as the one which is in your head.
Also when i said OP i was talking about the 'original poster' who wrote that childish topic. And i know you are not he, i think the tag 'girl geek' kinda gives it away.
I'm sorry that that is all you gleaned from those TWO articles, but it does surprise me that you didn't see the many many points made that had nothing to do with WoW.
And I DEFINITELY agree with you that the BEST MMORPG is what is in each of our MINDS. Even if you're playing an MMO that you LOVE....I think there's always something you, as a gamer, can think of that would make that MMO...even better for you. I mean, that is, if you're creative at all....and I think gamers do tend to be rather creatively inclined and imaginative people.
And when you said "OP"....you did mean me, even if you didn't know it....I AM the original poster in this thread. ??? So that bit is confusing. See that little OP icon by my name....the little gold star? O.o Maybe you meant the author of the blog that I linked? Well...he's not the OP.
For what's it worth, I fully agree with the OP's link. I just don't see how that could change. It's a bit like the climate change. All saw it coming, we all know where it will lead to, but none really does anything about it.
But then, we see that about games in general. Where once complex and demanding games by garage companies where made, now we see giants like EA puke out copy cat games and a company like Cryptic proudly creating fast-paced trash MMOs in a frenzy. Since games got to a mass market and away from the more demanding gamer, the result is more shit.
To be fair, on the other hand: we also get WAY more games now than, say, 1985 or so. Back when "Ultima" was the RPG standard people go 1 or 2 RPGs in a year. Now we have dozens every year, and one Mass Effect among it kinda equals the old ratio of 1 GOOD Rpg. Just saying. So you COULD argue the "demanding" MMO market stayed the same level, only the dumb MMOs expanded.
For what's it worth, I fully agree with the OP's link. I just don't see how that could change. It's a bit like the climate change. All saw it coming, we all know where it will lead to, but none really does anything about it.
Yes.
But what COULD we do, as gamers, to bring forth change WE (the ones that WANT it) would like to see? First of all, even among those of us that long for more innovation and changes, we don't always agree on what those innovations and changes should look like. Secondly...there is a massively growing segment of casual "gamers" (i.e., the Facebook games variety), that may be having their minds opened to PC gaming for the first time ala Facebook. Okay....THAT scares the bejeebus outta me, as a long time gamer. Because people generally become ATTACHED to the first game that really grabs them. If 20 million people play Farmville as their first game....can you IMAGINE what that will do...the effect it will have on games in general and particularly social games, such as MMOs?? /shiver
I fear that developers will...greedy for the dollar...turn to exclusively developing games that are PURELY for casuals. We're already seeing games that did NOT start out that way, being slowly (or not so slowly) "morphed" that direction.
Is the ONLY thing we can do is to "vote with your wallet?" Because...and I'm just being honest here...if I, personally, have the choice of playing a mediocre game or NO game at all....I'm essentially addicted to gaming...I would probably go ahead and play the mediocre game just to HAVE something to PLAY. Listen...I'm NOT proud of that, but...I also don't think I'm ALONE in that. Maybe I need a 12 Step Program more than I need more innovative games. lol (Only half kidding there.)
So this is part of the reason I wanted to discuss this. What do we DO? IS there anything we can do? Is progress, even destructive "progress" (seems contradictory, yes)....a hopeless sign of the times for games? Is refusing to buy games at all and completely boycotting modern MMOs viable? I don't truthfully think so. The number of people that see warning flags and danger signs for the genre....are a tiny number compared to the number that are blissfully oblivious to the changes that have occured, are STILL occuring, and will very LIKELY occur in the future.
Not ALL change....is good. And since none of us are very likely psychics....how can you tell what changes WILL be good in the long run, and what changes will NOT?
All I know...is that I don't want to have an abundance of games like Farmville as my only choices for gaming in 10 years.
"........Blizzard has seduced and fooled us with their Hollywood polish. We traded in the important exhilarating virtues of being part of a virtual world — community, camaraderie, danger, player interdependence, role-playing and player freedom– and instead opted for a safe and scripted amusement park ride............"
Those are the qualities that I have been looking for in a MMO for a really long time, been unsuccessful so far.
Article summary: "I don't like WOW, so it shouldn't exist."
Just seems like a lot of hot air. WOW will continue to exist. Many continue to enjoy it.
Nobody thinks Cataclysm is a "cure" for anything. It's more WOW. People who like WOW want more WOW.
I mean, as much as the guy can pile up criticisms of things like community, the people who like WOW just don't care. They're obviously not there for the same reasons as the author (nevermind the fact that plenty of community exists within guilds in WOW; what more do you really get out of communities larger than a guild-sized community anyway? ...that you don't still already get inside WOW's communities, that is...)
I dunno, maybe I'm weird for thinking that it's the companies failing to provide good products who should be criticized, rather than the company providing the product people like.
Provide a fun, compelling, new MMORPG experience and people will buy it. Even the WOW players, if your new experience is truly fun.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Originally posted by Axehilt Article summary: "I don't like WOW, so it shouldn't exist." Just seems like a lot of hot air. WOW will continue to exist. Many continue to enjoy it. Nobody thinks Cataclysm is a "cure" for anything. It's more WOW. People who like WOW want more WOW. I mean, as much as the guy can pile up criticisms of things like community, the people who like WOW just don't care. They're obviously not there for the same reasons as the author (nevermind the fact that plenty of community exists within guilds in WOW; what more do you really get out of communities larger than a guild-sized community anyway? ...that you don't still already get inside WOW's communities, that is...) I dunno, maybe I'm weird for thinking that it's the companies failing to provide good products who should be criticized, rather than the company providing the product people like. Provide a fun, compelling, new MMORPG experience and people will buy it. Even the WOW players, if your new experience is truly fun.
It's a little bit like the Larry The Cable Guy/Jeff Dunham crowd between George Carlin/Richard Pryor crowd.
It's WoW/SWG/EQ crowd vs. Anti-WoW/Eve Online crowd here.
I prefer games that don't appeal to every single moron out there with a wallet. That's what WoW is. It's a vacuum for people with a vacuum between their ears.
I mean, as much as the guy can pile up criticisms of things like community, the people who like WOW just don't care.
LMAO!
You coulda fooled me
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
I mean, as much as the guy can pile up criticisms of things like community, the people who like WOW just don't care.
LMAO!
You coulda fooled me
Hmm? If someone's playing WOW, they probably find its community setup acceptable. What part of that is confusing?
I think, perhaps (and correct me if I'm wrong, Cecropia), he was interpreting your statement... "the people who like WOW just don't care," as saying that they don't care what other people think of WoW. And perhaps he was looking at this thread, and all the others on the site that don't always say the very best things about WoW and saying....they sure SEEM like they care, considering how upset some of them get when WoW is even remotely mentioned in what they perceive as a negative light.
IF that's what he understood you to say and is what he meant....I can understand him saying that. However...I have to say that even if that is the case...I get pretty defensive if I perceive that games I enjoy are being discounted too. So...no shame to those that like WoW. They're just like everyone else when they think their favorite sports team, favorite musician, favorite game, whatever...is being dogged.
Where any of us deceive ourselves is if we think ANY bloody game is perfect. It might be "perfect" for me...or "perfect" for you....but every game on the market has its issues...it's weaknesses and strengths. And if you can't see that your favorite game is not the very glorious example of brilliant perfection....regardless of what game it is....it's delusional thinking. We all fall prey to it with something in our lives...maybe more than ONE something. Gaming is our hobby and perhaps sometimes we might idolize certain developers or games. Fact is....they're all just games and they all have things about them that are crap and things that are great and it's all relative to what the player wants in their game or games.
And all of that is why I feel pretty certain that there will NEVER BE just ONE game for everyone. And it's why I HOPE...oh I hope, I hope, I hope...that some developer(s) somewhere will be bold and fearless and risk-taking and make games that do not fit the present day casual mold of MMOs.
LOL .. probably some sad dude in his basement with nothing to do ranting about WOW.
Well, certainly there are people who dont like WOW .. but on the other hand, there are a lot who do. I see no reason for it to change direction. In fact, I wouldn't want a MMO without some of the FUN enhancing featuers (like the dungeon finder tool he hates so much) Blizz has put in.
And this "community" rant is just silly. I have enough friends in WOW and I don't care about his rant about this "deterioration". I don't see more friendly people when i played EQ, i just saw a lot of problems with the game.
I don't know. I don't think the article was either well thought out or that the writer has a clue.
First he mentions being sick of diku clones, but then blames it on the last game in a long line of clones? Then he talks about the games becoming more simplistic when he apparently doesn't realize that the roots of the RPG genre were more simplistic than what we have now. He clearly doesn't know where the genre came from, or where its going to. Why should i listen to him?
Then he says farmville doesn't deserve the name video game. Granted i haven't played it myself. But to not even be called a video game? What color is the sky in this guys world, it certainly aint blue.
Then he lists things he doesn't like about wow, and just sort of asserts that these things are more bad than good. Anyone whose read any number of threads here knows better. He must be a newbie.
" Player: You don't have teleporting! How can I rejoin my group if I miss a session?
Designer: Well gee, maybe by omitting teleportation I'm kinda dropping a hint that you can have a meaningful gaming experience, without always having to group with the same people of the same level and run a treadmill the whole time?
Player: Are you NUTS? I want to play with my friends, and I want to play with them RIGHT NOW!
Designer: But how are you ever going to make new friends? How -
Player: Are you listening? RIGHT NOW!
Designer: (Sigh) "
That is something a 12 yr old would say.
And any company that caters to 12 yr olds, deserves to fail.
Because....
12 yr olds have no money.
The 12-yr old would be whoever wrote that dialog. It shows a lack of understnading that most MMO gamers aren't playing to make new friends - that's something they do in real life. They have the friends they made and they want to spend their game time playing with them, not travelling to hopefully be able to play with them. It honestly is not an unreasonable request. The author of that dialog seems to feel that his way to play an MMO is the right way. More power to him, I guess.
I've seen this example pointed out a few times over the years and I always wanted to respond to it but got sidetracked. My response to it is simple. If those guys were indeed truly his friends and they were all well aware of how traveling works in the world they wouldn't have went off and left him. If it is as you say and that those gaming friends of his were real world friends then he talks to them everyday and would be able to tell them not to run off to another area and leave him.
For me this example just doesn't fly as an excuse not to have a large world with no teleporting or fast travel. Today we just have too many people who think MMO's are games to be "won" at the "end-game" which is absolutly contrary to what they were initially created as which is an online world in the mold of the pencil and paper RPGs which didn't emphasize a "rush to the end/top level".
Now the MMO genre is flooded with players who want to hurry up and get to the "end" and "win" so that they can jump over to the next game. They don't want to "miss out" on a new game for fear of "missing something". And all games have to be made this way or else they can "miss out" because of "tedious play" that a more complex virtual world would offer.
And as these lemmings make up the bulk of not only gaming's population but the world's (and thus is why company$ cater toward them), well, let's just say this point of view was brought to you by Carl's Jr. (Idiocracy for those who didn't get it. Watch that movie and know that it is more real than you probably previously imagined).
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
I don't know. I don't think the article was either well thought out or that the writer has a clue.
First he mentions being sick of diku clones, but then blames it on the last game in a long line of clones? Then he talks about the games becoming more simplistic when he apparently doesn't realize that the roots of the RPG genre were more simplistic than what we have now. He clearly doesn't know where the genre came from, or where its going to. Why should i listen to him?
Then he says farmville doesn't deserve the name video game. Granted i haven't played it myself. But to not even be called a video game? What color is the sky in this guys world, it certainly aint blue.
Then he lists things he doesn't like about wow, and just sort of asserts that these things are more bad than good. Anyone whose read any number of threads here knows better. He must be a newbie.
I would say the article is full of fail.
Well...you have to remember that the article is a blog post, so it's editorial in nature. It's one writer/gamer's opinion, that's all. Some of us will agree with him, some not, and some of us will agree with only SOME of what he said. It's just an opinion....so....I don't think it's "full of fail." But you're entitled to think so! I don't personally agree with EVERYTHING said in either of the articles....but I agree with a good deal of both.
Really my primary concern is more that I'm hoping the future does NOT hold a banquet table full of Farmville-like social gaming choices for me. I would still like to be able to enjoy a good MMO 10 years from now...at least sometimes. But I guess only time will tell anyway.
I found out yesterday that I'm going to be a grandmother, so...maybe in 10 years my life will be too busy to enjoy my hobby the same way I do today and my views will change too. I might have a new hobby of going to dance recitals or Little League games by then. I have to say though, that MMOs have always been kind of "my time"...time I spend doing something just fun to ME, and I rather doubt that my views will change enough that I won't still want more than what I see now in MMOs, but....who knows?
I don't know. I don't think the article was either well thought out or that the writer has a clue.
First he mentions being sick of diku clones, but then blames it on the last game in a long line of clones? Then he talks about the games becoming more simplistic when he apparently doesn't realize that the roots of the RPG genre were more simplistic than what we have now. He clearly doesn't know where the genre came from, or where its going to. Why should i listen to him?
Then he says farmville doesn't deserve the name video game. Granted i haven't played it myself. But to not even be called a video game? What color is the sky in this guys world, it certainly aint blue.
There was an article here on MMORPG.com a while back that highlighted exactly why it shouldn't be considered a game... the answer is simply because there is nothing entertaining about it. All the thing does is dangle a carrot in front of you to get you to keep playing but you will never ever reach said carrot. Essentially it's built from the ground up as a virtual drug with the sole intent of making people keep coming back to spend money. I tried it out myself purely to try and understand what was so terrible about it and at first you don't notice it but later on you begin to realise that all you're doing is working by performing one single task over and over every few hours. It's quite literally no different to being told to push a button every few hours. The entertainment stems from the novelty of the concept, once that wears off you realise that it is not a game at all but just a virtual drip feeding you a very well controlled flow of reasons to keep clicking. Since you've already invested so much time, however, you're reluctant to just drop the game altogether.
Then he lists things he doesn't like about wow, and just sort of asserts that these things are more bad than good. Anyone whose read any number of threads here knows better. He must be a newbie.
You realise that you're just sort of asserting that they're more good than bad right? The number of posts in favour of them on a discussion forum says nothing of how good or bad the features are. Also he was comparing them to the original concept of MMOs. Those features directly contradict the original intent of the genre and so in terms of the MMO genre they certainly are bad things... whether they're good or bad as game features in isolation is a different matter.
I would say the article is full of fail.
I would say it it's a well thought out attempt to explain the problem considering how many facets it has.
@OP - The funny thing is that a comment posted on the original article sums up the real problem better than anything. It says that those completely blind to the situation here are 'Like fat, obese, blind and diabetic kids telling you that fat burgers are the best food ever'. They can't see the problem because the problem is sustaining them. As a result the likes of Blizzard will continue to get their money as most players cannot (as opposed to will not) vote with their wallet.
In my opinion the reason that we're in this mess is because there aren't any real laws governing this sort of thing yet. It's becoming blindingly obvious that developers are becoming predatory with targetting a specific audience and crafting the game to make them keep playing beyond the point of it losing its entertainment value. They do this to extort money out of their players. It's not quite like an addiction but it is getting extremely close. What's worse is these developers are creating this effect deliberately in the interest of making more money.
I've tried to think of a way to put it in comparable terms with something else but I can't find anything and yet I think that's really the issue. Nothing else like MMOs exists and since they're so young there are no specific laws in place to regulate them.
A good representation of this can be seen in the new mount in the Blizzard store. Regardless of your opinion on cash shops or RMT anyone with a few brain cells could see that the horse is not worth $25; that's more than a friggin expansion for god's sake. Yet millions of players bought it. Why? The answer is simple... the devs have a monopoly on everything within their own world. Monopolisation is illegal yet since these are virtual worlds there are no laws governing them. The funniest thing is that people defended this move by Blizzard claiming that since the mount is purely fluff it holds no real value and is of no consequence... the fact that so many people bought it says quite the opposite.
IMO the only genuine solution to this is for someone with some legal power to step in and legislate that MMO devs cannot deliberately quasi-addict people to make money. Of course that would require both proof that players are being addicted and it would have terrible repercussions on the gaming industry as a whole...
The only other option is for some kind hearted developer to actually make a game to entertain rather than to solely make money. For this reason I am particularly interested in A-Net's latest offering as they have no reason to deliberately addict their players (due to not having a subscription model) and instead have every reason to actually make it entertaining to play (to make more people buy the game).
EDIT: I figured I'd mention this before anyone jumps on me: I'm not saying that WoW has no entertainment value, I'm saying that Blizzard deliberately leads its players to be unwilling to stop playing once that entertainment value has worn out.
What does wow's success have anything to do with you guys not finding any good MMO to play.
I love turn based MMO, but apparently most people don't, so there isn't many of it on the market. But I don't blame wow for it.
That's not what the article says:
"The only explanation I can fathom for the lack of evolution in the genre is that Blizzard is purposely withholding all of their innovations for their upcoming next gen MMO which I predict will be announced at this year’s BlizzCon."
Obviously the author and people who agree with him feel Blizzard somehow has the ability to control the entire genre.
Stop the presses! News flash! Blizzard can stop evolution!
What does wow's success have anything to do with you guys not finding any good MMO to play.
I love turn based MMO, but apparently most people don't, so there isn't many of it on the market. But I don't blame wow for it.
No major developers will risk deviating from WoW's proven model to try and develop something else. You won't see a major turn based MMO because it won't bring in as much money as easily as something designed in the image of WoW. People don't blame Blizzard directly for this... it's really the fault of all the money obsessed individuals pulling the strings behind the scenes that have no interest in the gaming industry besides what profits it can make for them.
Essentially as unlikely as you seeing a major turn based MMO is, it is a complete impossibility as long as everyone is trying to imitate WoW's success.
[quote]Originally posted by Alberel [b][quote] @OP - The funny thing is that a comment posted on the original article sums up the real problem better than anything. It says that those completely blind to the situation here are 'Like fat, obese, blind and diabetic kids telling you that fat burgers are the best food ever'. They can't see the problem because the problem is sustaining them. As a result the likes of Blizzard will continue to get their money as most players cannot (as opposed to will not) vote with their wallet. [/b][/quote] .
. Alb, you are incredibly wrong. Look at all the people who voted with their feet November 2004. . You owe your fellow players an apology. They are just as smart and capable as you.
@OP - The funny thing is that a comment posted on the original article sums up the real problem better than anything. It says that those completely blind to the situation here are 'Like fat, obese, blind and diabetic kids telling you that fat burgers are the best food ever'. They can't see the problem because the problem is sustaining them. As a result the likes of Blizzard will continue to get their money as most players cannot (as opposed to will not) vote with their wallet.
[/b][/quote]
.
.
Alb, you are incredibly wrong. Look at all the people who voted with their feet November 2004.
.
You owe your fellow players an apology. They are just as smart and capable as you.
*stares* o.0
Call me silly, but... what happened in Nov. 2004? I gazed at the chart but... I dont see it. Give me a clue pls. ^^()
This was a little to much of a rant on Blizzard and WOW
While granted it is run buy suits who are only in it for the buck. It is the consumers fault for buying crap. I don't play or buy into anything that isn't fun. Which is why I haven't been playing MMO's for awhile
I do find the article offensive knocking what blizzard did with WoW, Hating wow just to hate it.
The fact they didn't mention blizzard improving on MMO interface design is just misinformed. I think the users become spoiled by what they are use to, they forget what they have gotten. The list of what WoW has accomplished is just patronizing. There is a reason blizzard has a ton of users, and it is not just the popularity of Blizzard or WoW. It was a good game in its time. I think WoW has Aged and doesn't appeal to me anymore, but I wont deny how damn fun the game was when I first played it.
It is not Wow or blizzard fault the way the MMO industry is, that is just a childish way to view the world. People need to learn our society is capatilistic in nature. if it is anyones fault it is the consumer. Companies only make what people will buy nothing more, nothing less. If WoW hadn't came along we would still be where we are today I am sure of it. I do hate blizzard for not innovating when they obviously got the money, but companies only spend money on innovation when they have to. Since there are no competitor yet in MMO industry blizzard doesn't have to be innovative. Other business will have to learn that copying won't make them money.
It is also not just corporations faults. Lets be honest most MMO developers aren't very innovative. Regardless of how much money they throw at a problem some developers aren't very innovative. Which has nothing to do with money since all that money that you see from games like wow goes to corporate people, not developers. Problem is some developers only know how to copy. Which is quite obvious and rather insulting when I here on forums like this one we need to go back to past MMO games to improve the MMO genre. you will not find improvement or innovation in the past. We need new Ideas which I don't think we will get for awhile. got to remember developers are MMO gamers like us and when I hear "lets return to the past" from gamers, I know the genre is doomed because a lot of the developers think the same as gamers. The MMO genre need a real overhaul on game design because it is still using a lot of archaic concepts that are broken in design. MMO's stick with to much tradition in the genre as it is, which is one of the things that is killing it.
If you think about it ever genre I play sticks with to much tradition. Video games in general have become boring, I play a lot less then I use to. I think it's because Video games went from a small indy industry to a multi-billion dollar industry. CEO's could give less of a damn about how good your games are. Just like how the movie industry keeps remaking movies. you can almost see the shift to corporate power by what is being put out their.
You can actually prove this by when the game industry was very indy in the Arcade era, Developers worked very hard trying not to copy games or repeating themselves, it was a very innovative time. Just look at how much variation there is in the arcade era, which is one of the reason why some people love it so much. Everyone was trying to be unique the best they could, as soon as more corporate control got involved the less innovative everything started to become. And I agree It will probably take another market crash like what happened to arcade games. I am afraid to say it history is doomed to repeat itself because businessman haven't learned from their mistakes. It is also a lot harder to start a indy company now as well, especially with this marker. So why don't you take your money and support indy, I actually prefer doing that than helping corporation if I see potential in the indy developers.
People need to realize the bigger problem of the game industry. you guys are looking at the tree's when you need to be looking at the forest. Corporate control of the game industry is why Games have gone down hill, not because of WoW. The outcome would still be the same regardless if WOW did or did not exist.
So to sum it up don't buy MMO's and let the market dry up until someone steps up and learns to innovate, and possibly support indy.
Article summary: "I don't like WOW, so it shouldn't exist."
Just seems like a lot of hot air. WOW will continue to exist. Many continue to enjoy it.
Nobody thinks Cataclysm is a "cure" for anything. It's more WOW. People who like WOW want more WOW.
I mean, as much as the guy can pile up criticisms of things like community, the people who like WOW just don't care. They're obviously not there for the same reasons as the author (nevermind the fact that plenty of community exists within guilds in WOW; what more do you really get out of communities larger than a guild-sized community anyway? ...that you don't still already get inside WOW's communities, that is...)
I dunno, maybe I'm weird for thinking that it's the companies failing to provide good products who should be criticized, rather than the company providing the product people like.
Provide a fun, compelling, new MMORPG experience and people will buy it. Even the WOW players, if your new experience is truly fun.
Sums up the whole thread: except for the fact that now Blizzard is "accused" for creating a succesful game.
While companies producing "duds" is the fault of the WOW players.
Yep. This IS mmorpg.com.
Its embarrassing when an NPC compliments you in an MMo, the only relevant, cool and epic things come from players whispering you Grtz, mate, we did it. copyright Pilnkplonk
Article summary: "I don't like WOW, so it shouldn't exist."
Just seems like a lot of hot air. WOW will continue to exist. Many continue to enjoy it.
Nobody thinks Cataclysm is a "cure" for anything. It's more WOW. People who like WOW want more WOW.
I mean, as much as the guy can pile up criticisms of things like community, the people who like WOW just don't care. They're obviously not there for the same reasons as the author (nevermind the fact that plenty of community exists within guilds in WOW; what more do you really get out of communities larger than a guild-sized community anyway? ...that you don't still already get inside WOW's communities, that is...)
I dunno, maybe I'm weird for thinking that it's the companies failing to provide good products who should be criticized, rather than the company providing the product people like.
Provide a fun, compelling, new MMORPG experience and people will buy it. Even the WOW players, if your new experience is truly fun.
Sums up the whole thread: except for the fact that now Blizzard is "accused" for creating a succesful game.
While companies producing "duds" is the fault of the WOW players.
You know, I don't get some of you people. Do you think you are in some kind of unique group or so?
What is this playing victim-like attitude, 'boohoo, everybody is hating WoW, boohoo' ?
Wake up! Every single MMO discussed here is getting heat of people disliking it or downright hating the MMO or company that made it.
Did you think you were unique? Look at the forumsections for EQ2, STO, AoC, WAR, SWG, DFO or other SOE or Cryptic Studios games, just to name a few, and see how much scorn or flaming is going on there too. That's what you get when you visit a site that's a platform for all kinds of games and not just a forum dedicated to one MMO: there will be lots more people who plainly don't like the game you're playing whatever that one may be.
And what is this, turning everything into a 'oh, I hear some criticism, clearly, it's a bunch of WoW haters again'? Have some of you gotten that thin a skin that you can't handle any form of discussion anymore at the merest mention of criticism of the game you're playing? What, those people automatically become WoW haters?!?
Grow up!
I have followed this thread and there's a lot more debate going on here than just the simplified 'oh, I read something bad about WoW, it's probably another WoW hate thread' that some posters here want to make of it. Try getting a broader perspective sometimes, you might like it.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
here is the first little list of things on the article that the writer said WoW introduced to mmo's.
NPC’s with exclamation marks above their heads?
Solo to the level cap?
EQ1 had this already
Instanced dungeons?
again, EQ1 had already invented this (LDoN)
Arenas?
Daily quests?
Nexus: Kingdom of the Winds had this LONG before WoW was a thought
Overpowered hero class?
Achievements?
The Dungeon Finder tool?
which makes WoW even less original since half of the mechanics were just stolen from the previous games and every person who became assimilated to the wow herd forgot.
but overall Wolfshead is completely right. my old mmo'ing buddies of 2d mmos and eq1 daoc golden days are all zombies for blizzard now. and we cant all forget the awesome videos on youtube of people on the verge of suicide when their wow accounts get hacked and shit like that.
blizzard needs to die to give mmos a chance to thrive again
Comments
I'm sorry that that is all you gleaned from those TWO articles, but it does surprise me that you didn't see the many many points made that had nothing to do with WoW.
And I DEFINITELY agree with you that the BEST MMORPG is what is in each of our MINDS. Even if you're playing an MMO that you LOVE....I think there's always something you, as a gamer, can think of that would make that MMO...even better for you. I mean, that is, if you're creative at all....and I think gamers do tend to be rather creatively inclined and imaginative people.
And when you said "OP"....you did mean me, even if you didn't know it....I AM the original poster in this thread. ??? So that bit is confusing. See that little OP icon by my name....the little gold star? O.o Maybe you meant the author of the blog that I linked? Well...he's not the OP.
President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club
The article in the original post is prophetic. He sums up the state of MMO's perfectly, especially for Wow.
For what's it worth, I fully agree with the OP's link. I just don't see how that could change. It's a bit like the climate change. All saw it coming, we all know where it will lead to, but none really does anything about it.
But then, we see that about games in general. Where once complex and demanding games by garage companies where made, now we see giants like EA puke out copy cat games and a company like Cryptic proudly creating fast-paced trash MMOs in a frenzy. Since games got to a mass market and away from the more demanding gamer, the result is more shit.
To be fair, on the other hand: we also get WAY more games now than, say, 1985 or so. Back when "Ultima" was the RPG standard people go 1 or 2 RPGs in a year. Now we have dozens every year, and one Mass Effect among it kinda equals the old ratio of 1 GOOD Rpg. Just saying. So you COULD argue the "demanding" MMO market stayed the same level, only the dumb MMOs expanded.
Yes.
But what COULD we do, as gamers, to bring forth change WE (the ones that WANT it) would like to see? First of all, even among those of us that long for more innovation and changes, we don't always agree on what those innovations and changes should look like. Secondly...there is a massively growing segment of casual "gamers" (i.e., the Facebook games variety), that may be having their minds opened to PC gaming for the first time ala Facebook. Okay....THAT scares the bejeebus outta me, as a long time gamer. Because people generally become ATTACHED to the first game that really grabs them. If 20 million people play Farmville as their first game....can you IMAGINE what that will do...the effect it will have on games in general and particularly social games, such as MMOs?? /shiver
I fear that developers will...greedy for the dollar...turn to exclusively developing games that are PURELY for casuals. We're already seeing games that did NOT start out that way, being slowly (or not so slowly) "morphed" that direction.
Is the ONLY thing we can do is to "vote with your wallet?" Because...and I'm just being honest here...if I, personally, have the choice of playing a mediocre game or NO game at all....I'm essentially addicted to gaming...I would probably go ahead and play the mediocre game just to HAVE something to PLAY. Listen...I'm NOT proud of that, but...I also don't think I'm ALONE in that. Maybe I need a 12 Step Program more than I need more innovative games. lol (Only half kidding there.)
So this is part of the reason I wanted to discuss this. What do we DO? IS there anything we can do? Is progress, even destructive "progress" (seems contradictory, yes)....a hopeless sign of the times for games? Is refusing to buy games at all and completely boycotting modern MMOs viable? I don't truthfully think so. The number of people that see warning flags and danger signs for the genre....are a tiny number compared to the number that are blissfully oblivious to the changes that have occured, are STILL occuring, and will very LIKELY occur in the future.
Not ALL change....is good. And since none of us are very likely psychics....how can you tell what changes WILL be good in the long run, and what changes will NOT?
All I know...is that I don't want to have an abundance of games like Farmville as my only choices for gaming in 10 years.
President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club
"........Blizzard has seduced and fooled us with their Hollywood polish. We traded in the important exhilarating virtues of being part of a virtual world — community, camaraderie, danger, player interdependence, role-playing and player freedom– and instead opted for a safe and scripted amusement park ride............"
Those are the qualities that I have been looking for in a MMO for a really long time, been unsuccessful so far.
Article summary: "I don't like WOW, so it shouldn't exist."
Just seems like a lot of hot air. WOW will continue to exist. Many continue to enjoy it.
Nobody thinks Cataclysm is a "cure" for anything. It's more WOW. People who like WOW want more WOW.
I mean, as much as the guy can pile up criticisms of things like community, the people who like WOW just don't care. They're obviously not there for the same reasons as the author (nevermind the fact that plenty of community exists within guilds in WOW; what more do you really get out of communities larger than a guild-sized community anyway? ...that you don't still already get inside WOW's communities, that is...)
I dunno, maybe I'm weird for thinking that it's the companies failing to provide good products who should be criticized, rather than the company providing the product people like.
Provide a fun, compelling, new MMORPG experience and people will buy it. Even the WOW players, if your new experience is truly fun.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
It's a little bit like the Larry The Cable Guy/Jeff Dunham crowd between George Carlin/Richard Pryor crowd.
It's WoW/SWG/EQ crowd vs. Anti-WoW/Eve Online crowd here.
I prefer games that don't appeal to every single moron out there with a wallet. That's what WoW is. It's a vacuum for people with a vacuum between their ears.
LMAO!
You coulda fooled me
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
Hmm? If someone's playing WOW, they probably find its community setup acceptable. What part of that is confusing?
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
I think, perhaps (and correct me if I'm wrong, Cecropia), he was interpreting your statement... "the people who like WOW just don't care," as saying that they don't care what other people think of WoW. And perhaps he was looking at this thread, and all the others on the site that don't always say the very best things about WoW and saying....they sure SEEM like they care, considering how upset some of them get when WoW is even remotely mentioned in what they perceive as a negative light.
IF that's what he understood you to say and is what he meant....I can understand him saying that. However...I have to say that even if that is the case...I get pretty defensive if I perceive that games I enjoy are being discounted too. So...no shame to those that like WoW. They're just like everyone else when they think their favorite sports team, favorite musician, favorite game, whatever...is being dogged.
Where any of us deceive ourselves is if we think ANY bloody game is perfect. It might be "perfect" for me...or "perfect" for you....but every game on the market has its issues...it's weaknesses and strengths. And if you can't see that your favorite game is not the very glorious example of brilliant perfection....regardless of what game it is....it's delusional thinking. We all fall prey to it with something in our lives...maybe more than ONE something. Gaming is our hobby and perhaps sometimes we might idolize certain developers or games. Fact is....they're all just games and they all have things about them that are crap and things that are great and it's all relative to what the player wants in their game or games.
And all of that is why I feel pretty certain that there will NEVER BE just ONE game for everyone. And it's why I HOPE...oh I hope, I hope, I hope...that some developer(s) somewhere will be bold and fearless and risk-taking and make games that do not fit the present day casual mold of MMOs.
President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club
LOL .. probably some sad dude in his basement with nothing to do ranting about WOW.
Well, certainly there are people who dont like WOW .. but on the other hand, there are a lot who do. I see no reason for it to change direction. In fact, I wouldn't want a MMO without some of the FUN enhancing featuers (like the dungeon finder tool he hates so much) Blizz has put in.
And this "community" rant is just silly. I have enough friends in WOW and I don't care about his rant about this "deterioration". I don't see more friendly people when i played EQ, i just saw a lot of problems with the game.
I don't know. I don't think the article was either well thought out or that the writer has a clue.
First he mentions being sick of diku clones, but then blames it on the last game in a long line of clones? Then he talks about the games becoming more simplistic when he apparently doesn't realize that the roots of the RPG genre were more simplistic than what we have now. He clearly doesn't know where the genre came from, or where its going to. Why should i listen to him?
Then he says farmville doesn't deserve the name video game. Granted i haven't played it myself. But to not even be called a video game? What color is the sky in this guys world, it certainly aint blue.
Then he lists things he doesn't like about wow, and just sort of asserts that these things are more bad than good. Anyone whose read any number of threads here knows better. He must be a newbie.
I would say the article is full of fail.
I've seen this example pointed out a few times over the years and I always wanted to respond to it but got sidetracked. My response to it is simple. If those guys were indeed truly his friends and they were all well aware of how traveling works in the world they wouldn't have went off and left him. If it is as you say and that those gaming friends of his were real world friends then he talks to them everyday and would be able to tell them not to run off to another area and leave him.
For me this example just doesn't fly as an excuse not to have a large world with no teleporting or fast travel. Today we just have too many people who think MMO's are games to be "won" at the "end-game" which is absolutly contrary to what they were initially created as which is an online world in the mold of the pencil and paper RPGs which didn't emphasize a "rush to the end/top level".
Now the MMO genre is flooded with players who want to hurry up and get to the "end" and "win" so that they can jump over to the next game. They don't want to "miss out" on a new game for fear of "missing something". And all games have to be made this way or else they can "miss out" because of "tedious play" that a more complex virtual world would offer.
And as these lemmings make up the bulk of not only gaming's population but the world's (and thus is why company$ cater toward them), well, let's just say this point of view was brought to you by Carl's Jr. (Idiocracy for those who didn't get it. Watch that movie and know that it is more real than you probably previously imagined).
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
Chavez y Chavez
Well...you have to remember that the article is a blog post, so it's editorial in nature. It's one writer/gamer's opinion, that's all. Some of us will agree with him, some not, and some of us will agree with only SOME of what he said. It's just an opinion....so....I don't think it's "full of fail." But you're entitled to think so!
I don't personally agree with EVERYTHING said in either of the articles....but I agree with a good deal of both.
Really my primary concern is more that I'm hoping the future does NOT hold a banquet table full of Farmville-like social gaming choices for me. I would still like to be able to enjoy a good MMO 10 years from now...at least sometimes. But I guess only time will tell anyway.
I found out yesterday that I'm going to be a grandmother, so...maybe in 10 years my life will be too busy to enjoy my hobby the same way I do today and my views will change too. I might have a new hobby of going to dance recitals or Little League games by then. I have to say though, that MMOs have always been kind of "my time"...time I spend doing something just fun to ME, and I rather doubt that my views will change enough that I won't still want more than what I see now in MMOs, but....who knows?
President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club
@OP - The funny thing is that a comment posted on the original article sums up the real problem better than anything. It says that those completely blind to the situation here are 'Like fat, obese, blind and diabetic kids telling you that fat burgers are the best food ever'. They can't see the problem because the problem is sustaining them. As a result the likes of Blizzard will continue to get their money as most players cannot (as opposed to will not) vote with their wallet.
In my opinion the reason that we're in this mess is because there aren't any real laws governing this sort of thing yet. It's becoming blindingly obvious that developers are becoming predatory with targetting a specific audience and crafting the game to make them keep playing beyond the point of it losing its entertainment value. They do this to extort money out of their players. It's not quite like an addiction but it is getting extremely close. What's worse is these developers are creating this effect deliberately in the interest of making more money.
I've tried to think of a way to put it in comparable terms with something else but I can't find anything and yet I think that's really the issue. Nothing else like MMOs exists and since they're so young there are no specific laws in place to regulate them.
A good representation of this can be seen in the new mount in the Blizzard store. Regardless of your opinion on cash shops or RMT anyone with a few brain cells could see that the horse is not worth $25; that's more than a friggin expansion for god's sake. Yet millions of players bought it. Why? The answer is simple... the devs have a monopoly on everything within their own world. Monopolisation is illegal yet since these are virtual worlds there are no laws governing them. The funniest thing is that people defended this move by Blizzard claiming that since the mount is purely fluff it holds no real value and is of no consequence... the fact that so many people bought it says quite the opposite.
IMO the only genuine solution to this is for someone with some legal power to step in and legislate that MMO devs cannot deliberately quasi-addict people to make money. Of course that would require both proof that players are being addicted and it would have terrible repercussions on the gaming industry as a whole...
The only other option is for some kind hearted developer to actually make a game to entertain rather than to solely make money. For this reason I am particularly interested in A-Net's latest offering as they have no reason to deliberately addict their players (due to not having a subscription model) and instead have every reason to actually make it entertaining to play (to make more people buy the game).
EDIT: I figured I'd mention this before anyone jumps on me: I'm not saying that WoW has no entertainment value, I'm saying that Blizzard deliberately leads its players to be unwilling to stop playing once that entertainment value has worn out.
What does wow's success have anything to do with you guys not finding any good MMO to play.
I love turn based MMO, but apparently most people don't, so there isn't many of it on the market. But I don't blame wow for it.
That's not what the article says:
"The only explanation I can fathom for the lack of evolution in the genre is that Blizzard is purposely withholding all of their innovations for their upcoming next gen MMO which I predict will be announced at this year’s BlizzCon."
Obviously the author and people who agree with him feel Blizzard somehow has the ability to control the entire genre.
Stop the presses! News flash! Blizzard can stop evolution!
No major developers will risk deviating from WoW's proven model to try and develop something else. You won't see a major turn based MMO because it won't bring in as much money as easily as something designed in the image of WoW. People don't blame Blizzard directly for this... it's really the fault of all the money obsessed individuals pulling the strings behind the scenes that have no interest in the gaming industry besides what profits it can make for them.
Essentially as unlikely as you seeing a major turn based MMO is, it is a complete impossibility as long as everyone is trying to imitate WoW's success.
[quote]Originally posted by Alberel
[b][quote]
@OP - The funny thing is that a comment posted on the original article sums up the real problem better than anything. It says that those completely blind to the situation here are 'Like fat, obese, blind and diabetic kids telling you that fat burgers are the best food ever'. They can't see the problem because the problem is sustaining them. As a result the likes of Blizzard will continue to get their money as most players cannot (as opposed to will not) vote with their wallet.
[/b][/quote]
.
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Alb, you are incredibly wrong. Look at all the people who voted with their feet November 2004.
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You owe your fellow players an apology. They are just as smart and capable as you.
Well shave my back and call me an elf! -- Oghren
*stares* o.0
Call me silly, but... what happened in Nov. 2004? I gazed at the chart but... I dont see it. Give me a clue pls. ^^()
This was a little to much of a rant on Blizzard and WOW
While granted it is run buy suits who are only in it for the buck. It is the consumers fault for buying crap. I don't play or buy into anything that isn't fun. Which is why I haven't been playing MMO's for awhile
I do find the article offensive knocking what blizzard did with WoW, Hating wow just to hate it.
The fact they didn't mention blizzard improving on MMO interface design is just misinformed. I think the users become spoiled by what they are use to, they forget what they have gotten. The list of what WoW has accomplished is just patronizing. There is a reason blizzard has a ton of users, and it is not just the popularity of Blizzard or WoW. It was a good game in its time. I think WoW has Aged and doesn't appeal to me anymore, but I wont deny how damn fun the game was when I first played it.
It is not Wow or blizzard fault the way the MMO industry is, that is just a childish way to view the world. People need to learn our society is capatilistic in nature. if it is anyones fault it is the consumer. Companies only make what people will buy nothing more, nothing less. If WoW hadn't came along we would still be where we are today I am sure of it. I do hate blizzard for not innovating when they obviously got the money, but companies only spend money on innovation when they have to. Since there are no competitor yet in MMO industry blizzard doesn't have to be innovative. Other business will have to learn that copying won't make them money.
It is also not just corporations faults. Lets be honest most MMO developers aren't very innovative. Regardless of how much money they throw at a problem some developers aren't very innovative. Which has nothing to do with money since all that money that you see from games like wow goes to corporate people, not developers. Problem is some developers only know how to copy. Which is quite obvious and rather insulting when I here on forums like this one we need to go back to past MMO games to improve the MMO genre. you will not find improvement or innovation in the past. We need new Ideas which I don't think we will get for awhile. got to remember developers are MMO gamers like us and when I hear "lets return to the past" from gamers, I know the genre is doomed because a lot of the developers think the same as gamers. The MMO genre need a real overhaul on game design because it is still using a lot of archaic concepts that are broken in design. MMO's stick with to much tradition in the genre as it is, which is one of the things that is killing it.
If you think about it ever genre I play sticks with to much tradition. Video games in general have become boring, I play a lot less then I use to. I think it's because Video games went from a small indy industry to a multi-billion dollar industry. CEO's could give less of a damn about how good your games are. Just like how the movie industry keeps remaking movies. you can almost see the shift to corporate power by what is being put out their.
You can actually prove this by when the game industry was very indy in the Arcade era, Developers worked very hard trying not to copy games or repeating themselves, it was a very innovative time. Just look at how much variation there is in the arcade era, which is one of the reason why some people love it so much. Everyone was trying to be unique the best they could, as soon as more corporate control got involved the less innovative everything started to become. And I agree It will probably take another market crash like what happened to arcade games. I am afraid to say it history is doomed to repeat itself because businessman haven't learned from their mistakes. It is also a lot harder to start a indy company now as well, especially with this marker. So why don't you take your money and support indy, I actually prefer doing that than helping corporation if I see potential in the indy developers.
People need to realize the bigger problem of the game industry. you guys are looking at the tree's when you need to be looking at the forest. Corporate control of the game industry is why Games have gone down hill, not because of WoW. The outcome would still be the same regardless if WOW did or did not exist.
So to sum it up don't buy MMO's and let the market dry up until someone steps up and learns to innovate, and possibly support indy.
Sums up the whole thread: except for the fact that now Blizzard is "accused" for creating a succesful game.
While companies producing "duds" is the fault of the WOW players.
Yep. This IS mmorpg.com.
Its embarrassing when an NPC compliments you in an MMo, the only relevant, cool and epic things come from players whispering you Grtz, mate, we did it. copyright Pilnkplonk
Right, it's all because of the WoW players!!! Said companies have NOTHING to do with it.
You know, I don't get some of you people. Do you think you are in some kind of unique group or so?
What is this playing victim-like attitude, 'boohoo, everybody is hating WoW, boohoo' ?
Wake up! Every single MMO discussed here is getting heat of people disliking it or downright hating the MMO or company that made it.
Did you think you were unique? Look at the forumsections for EQ2, STO, AoC, WAR, SWG, DFO or other SOE or Cryptic Studios games, just to name a few, and see how much scorn or flaming is going on there too. That's what you get when you visit a site that's a platform for all kinds of games and not just a forum dedicated to one MMO: there will be lots more people who plainly don't like the game you're playing whatever that one may be.
And what is this, turning everything into a 'oh, I hear some criticism, clearly, it's a bunch of WoW haters again'? Have some of you gotten that thin a skin that you can't handle any form of discussion anymore at the merest mention of criticism of the game you're playing? What, those people automatically become WoW haters?!?
Grow up!
I have followed this thread and there's a lot more debate going on here than just the simplified 'oh, I read something bad about WoW, it's probably another WoW hate thread' that some posters here want to make of it. Try getting a broader perspective sometimes, you might like it.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
here is the first little list of things on the article that the writer said WoW introduced to mmo's.
NPC’s with exclamation marks above their heads?
Solo to the level cap?
EQ1 had this already
Instanced dungeons?
again, EQ1 had already invented this (LDoN)
Arenas?
Daily quests?
Nexus: Kingdom of the Winds had this LONG before WoW was a thought
Overpowered hero class?
Achievements?
The Dungeon Finder tool?
which makes WoW even less original since half of the mechanics were just stolen from the previous games and every person who became assimilated to the wow herd forgot.
but overall Wolfshead is completely right. my old mmo'ing buddies of 2d mmos and eq1 daoc golden days are all zombies for blizzard now. and we cant all forget the awesome videos on youtube of people on the verge of suicide when their wow accounts get hacked and shit like that.
blizzard needs to die to give mmos a chance to thrive again