The MMO(RPG) market hasn't been ready for the mass influence. As soon as other companies will get that Wow is an exclusion not the normal we can expect more challenging, innovative and overall better games again. It looks like some studios are slowly getting it:
Guild Wars 2 FF XIV are very promising games. I wouldn't count TOR an innovative game looks like another quest-grinder just fully voiced with a black white mentality.
I tmean, the time is probably right for a big cataclysm, the genre has grown too big for its own good. So we'll need a cataclysm in order to get back to the roots of MMORPG gaming.
We need a MMORPG Cataclysm asap, finish the dark age of MMORPGS now!
"Everything you're bitching about is wrong. People don't have the time to invest in corpse runs, impossible zones, or long winded quests. Sometimes, they just want to pop on and play." "Then maybe MMORPGs aren't for you."
Wow has ruined the MMO market. I get sick to my stomach nowadays when I even hear WoW being spoken about in conversation.
No, Actually the MMO Market ruined itself to trying to emulate WoW. My Buddies at SOE have ripped off every idea, good and bad from WoW instead of coming up with one original Idea themselves.
I agree to a point, but the sudden influx of players exclusively to Blizzards new game, WoW, being already long time Blizzard fans, caused a lot of players to flood and petition those other game companies to introduce WoW-like features. The technology isn’t new with WoW, but none or few of the existing communities wanted their games to go that way. But yes, the main fault is with those companies caving into the demands, and their loss as those that wanted it didn’t bother to drop WoW for their game after the changes came, since it wasn’t really “WoW“. And their fault for alienating their existing vets by changing and dumbing down their games.
If you flash back 10 years, you find Blizzard very successful with Diablo (many kids played), and many of those players wanting it to be recognized as an mmorpg, though always refused. Now we have Blizzard’s WoW on the market today and those players hating what mmo’s were and innovating to, while craving for more WoW/Blizzard, which in some respects is like Diablo engineering wise. So it wasn’t about "original ideas", but polishing something that already existed into some sort of... Frankenstein, at least in the eyes of the vet communities.
So may seem unfair, but think about it a bit, why such an effect. Is it just because those games attract QQ’ers? Well what is the difference between the players? Well the vets sub to one or more mmo’s for years and are happy with them, they are long-term games and have a unique quality. So people going around begging for more DAoC was not something seen a lot, they had plenty of the long-term game dynamics to play in DAoC.
But these new games are linear in style, you hit the cap and that’s about it for most people. So it’s time to at least take a break from their first and main mmo, and find something like it so to experience more content like that. They crave it but they don’t know what “it” is, at least not the “it” that was already in other games which was not what they were looking for. But now it is in most every game, but still not a replacement for “it“, because those too die at the end of progression. Some day Blizzard will make another Blizzard flavored game, and that will be “it” for them, at least until content runs out again, then back to the same abusive cycle.
Originally posted by Daywolf Originally posted by JestorRodo
Originally posted by Sunioj
Wow has ruined the MMO market. I get sick to my stomach nowadays when I even hear WoW being spoken about in conversation.
No, Actually the MMO Market ruined itself to trying to emulate WoW. My Buddies at SOE have ripped off every idea, good and bad from WoW instead of coming up with one original Idea themselves. I agree to a point, but the sudden influx of players exclusively to Blizzards new game, WoW, being already long time Blizzard fans,
. Looks like a big chunk of WoW players came from EQ1, DAoC, EQ2, Lineage1 etc. .
I have always been slightly amused by all the talk of innovation in regard to WoW. Their only pseudo-innovation has come from trying to fix problems they have created. The vast majority of innovation attributed to them is actually regurgitation. WoW is a clone - other games are not clones of WoW or attempting to be clones of WoW, they are simply trying to be clones of the games that WoW ripped off. I mean, seriously, even the original Warcraft series was a rip of Warhammer from GW.
Where Blizzard has been successful is in their psychological study of the general populace while marketing and catering to the highly repetitive needs of the ADHD masses looking for that match of a 3D chatroom and playing Bejeweled.
They offer a Ferrari made from generic parts, with a smaller motor, an automatic transmission, and at a cheap enough price that they can make money from the masses... offering new stickers that will make the car appear to go faster every six months or so.
As much as people may hate what is going on with the MMO market, the simple fact is that the money is behind the market going that way... so for those of us that want more, there simply are not enough of us to support the business model.
The financial people are not going to take a risk on putting out a game that we appear to want, because as has been stated repeatedly - we really do not know what we want.
But still, c'mon - Blizzard as an innovator? The chuckle from that is wearing thin...
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Looks like a big chunk of WoW players came from EQ1, DAoC, EQ2, Lineage1 etc.
.
EQ was beginning it’s instanced changes, which were crud and the community was trying to navigate the devs away from going extreme with it. Many went to EQ2, but were disillusioned as it was more the extreme. Some returned to EQ1, some filtered into other games. SWG went through catastrophic changes as well, each one driving players away. UO went item base like EQ, which didn’t fit. DAoC did junk too, but DAoC players can explain it better than I can. Who DIDN’T try vanilla WoW? Does that make me a WoW player sold out on the game? How many players such as I quit then to have others subscribe as the existing players pulled their friends in? Are you trying to say the culmination of WoW players were long time vets? The chart really does not cover the details. Maybe a phone poll would work better hehe
Looks like a big chunk of WoW players came from EQ1, DAoC, EQ2, Lineage1 etc.
.
EQ was beginning it’s instanced changes, which were crud and the community was trying to navigate the devs away from going extreme with it. Many went to EQ2, but were disillusioned as it was more the extreme. Some returned to EQ1, some filtered into other games. SWG went through catastrophic changes as well, each one driving players away. UO went item base like EQ, which didn’t fit. DAoC did junk too, but DAoC players can explain it better than I can. Who DIDN’T try vanilla WoW? Does that make me a WoW player sold out on the game? How many players such as I quit then to have others subscribe as the existing players pulled their friends in? Are you trying to say the culmination of WoW players were long time vets? The chart really does not cover the details. Maybe a phone poll would work better hehe
I remember at the time, while WoW was doing its beta - Shadowbane was also doing the beta for Throne of Oblivion. Most folks I know walked away from SB over the ToO beta even though WoW had such Fisher Price graphics. It is kind of funny, if you think about it - how many people ended up playing WoW because the games they enjoyed playing started massively screwing them all up around the same time? It was not necessarily a case that Blizzard offered us cake or anything, but companies that had been giving us cake started giving us burnt toast crumblies instead...
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
I remember at the time, while WoW was doing its beta - Shadowbane was also doing the beta for Throne of Oblivion. Most folks I know walked away from SB over the ToO beta even though WoW had such Fisher Price graphics. It is kind of funny, if you think about it - how many people ended up playing WoW because the games they enjoyed playing started massively screwing them all up around the same time? It was not necessarily a case that Blizzard offered us cake or anything, but companies that had been giving us cake started giving us burnt toast crumblies instead...
But the points I mentioned, understanding the time-line of events in the major games, while looking at the chart, notice EVE, Dofus and even LOTRO picking up the declining vet subs, with a given of pause between choices.
And lest look at the millions chart. Lineage, WoW, Aion, Runescape. Compare it to the thousands chart and the vast majority of mainstream mmo's that came out after WoW, perhaps in some regard trying to emulate it, fail to accomplish what an indie studio has; CCP.
Originally posted by Daywolf But the points I mentioned, understanding the time-line of events in the major games, while looking at the chart, notice EVE, Dofus and even LOTRO picking up the declining vet subs, with a given of pause between choices.
. I hear ya bro. . Looks like all those EQ1, UO vets when to dofus. . French aint it?
But the points I mentioned, understanding the time-line of events in the major games, while looking at the chart, notice EVE, Dofus and even LOTRO picking up the declining vet subs, with a given of pause between choices.
.
I hear ya bro.
.
Looks like all those EQ1, UO vets when to dofus.
.
French aint it?
EVE and LOTRO don't count now? I know LOTRO had a lot of EQ players. EVE of course SWG. DAoC went someplace, but I was never connected with it's community so don't really want to guess, though I doubt WoW due to the play style. If WoW's volume was other than from DIablo and various CRPG's, but from the vet mmo players, then subs would be near zero to fill the volume. WoW players had to come from some place, I don't think Blizzard spawned them... you say from the games I mentioned, but then who started playing the games that were more similar to those to some degree? Refugees from EA Land?
Originally posted by Daywolf WoW players had to come from some place, I don't think Blizzard spawned them... you say from the games I mentioned, but then who started playing the games that were more similar to those to some degree? Refugees from EA Land?
. Looking at the chart, it's obvious that WoW got a big chunk of the EQ, DAoC, UO, SWG subscriber base. . Maybe you were happy with those games, but looks like a whole chunk of your fellow players weren't. . WoW lanched in late 2004. LotRO launched about 3 years later. Maybe all those old school players quit your games in 2004 and hung out 3 years for LotRO? Doubt it.
WoW players had to come from some place, I don't think Blizzard spawned them... you say from the games I mentioned, but then who started playing the games that were more similar to those to some degree? Refugees from EA Land?
.
Looking at the chart, it's obvious that WoW got a big chunk of the EQ, DAoC, UO, SWG subscriber base.
.
Maybe you were happy with those games, but looks like a whole chunk of your fellow players weren't.
.
WoW lanched in late 2004. LotRO launched about 3 years later. Maybe all those old school players quit your games in 2004 and hung out 3 years for LotRO? Doubt it.
I didn’t say they all went to LOTRO, just like I didn’t say they all went to Dofus. WoW released 2005 in EU, end of 2004 US. LOTRO picked up a little over two years later. EVE was already running but started to take off after SWG declined. From the losses, there is not enough to fill WoW, especially if you factor in the gains. It’s one big X where it all meets in the middle, a swap of players, not a mass exodus to WoW. Your browser is displaying the chart with the text in the correct direction, right? You should be able to read it without tilting your head
Comments
I said it once and I'll say it again:
The MMO(RPG) market hasn't been ready for the mass influence. As soon as other companies will get that Wow is an exclusion not the normal we can expect more challenging, innovative and overall better games again. It looks like some studios are slowly getting it:
Guild Wars 2 FF XIV are very promising games. I wouldn't count TOR an innovative game looks like another quest-grinder just fully voiced with a black white mentality.
I tmean, the time is probably right for a big cataclysm, the genre has grown too big for its own good. So we'll need a cataclysm in order to get back to the roots of MMORPG gaming.
We need a MMORPG Cataclysm asap, finish the dark age of MMORPGS now!
"Everything you're bitching about is wrong. People don't have the time to invest in corpse runs, impossible zones, or long winded quests. Sometimes, they just want to pop on and play."
"Then maybe MMORPGs aren't for you."
I agree to a point, but the sudden influx of players exclusively to Blizzards new game, WoW, being already long time Blizzard fans, caused a lot of players to flood and petition those other game companies to introduce WoW-like features. The technology isn’t new with WoW, but none or few of the existing communities wanted their games to go that way. But yes, the main fault is with those companies caving into the demands, and their loss as those that wanted it didn’t bother to drop WoW for their game after the changes came, since it wasn’t really “WoW“. And their fault for alienating their existing vets by changing and dumbing down their games.
If you flash back 10 years, you find Blizzard very successful with Diablo (many kids played), and many of those players wanting it to be recognized as an mmorpg, though always refused. Now we have Blizzard’s WoW on the market today and those players hating what mmo’s were and innovating to, while craving for more WoW/Blizzard, which in some respects is like Diablo engineering wise. So it wasn’t about "original ideas", but polishing something that already existed into some sort of... Frankenstein, at least in the eyes of the vet communities.
So may seem unfair, but think about it a bit, why such an effect. Is it just because those games attract QQ’ers? Well what is the difference between the players? Well the vets sub to one or more mmo’s for years and are happy with them, they are long-term games and have a unique quality. So people going around begging for more DAoC was not something seen a lot, they had plenty of the long-term game dynamics to play in DAoC.
But these new games are linear in style, you hit the cap and that’s about it for most people. So it’s time to at least take a break from their first and main mmo, and find something like it so to experience more content like that. They crave it but they don’t know what “it” is, at least not the “it” that was already in other games which was not what they were looking for. But now it is in most every game, but still not a replacement for “it“, because those too die at the end of progression. Some day Blizzard will make another Blizzard flavored game, and that will be “it” for them, at least until content runs out again, then back to the same abusive cycle.
M59, UO, EQ1, WWIIOL, PS, EnB, SL, SWG. MoM, EQ2, AO, SB, CoH, LOTRO, WoW, DDO+ f2p's, Demos & indie alpha's.
I agree to a point, but the sudden influx of players exclusively to Blizzards new game, WoW, being already long time Blizzard fans,
.
Looks like a big chunk of WoW players came from EQ1, DAoC, EQ2, Lineage1 etc.
.
Well shave my back and call me an elf! -- Oghren
I have always been slightly amused by all the talk of innovation in regard to WoW. Their only pseudo-innovation has come from trying to fix problems they have created. The vast majority of innovation attributed to them is actually regurgitation. WoW is a clone - other games are not clones of WoW or attempting to be clones of WoW, they are simply trying to be clones of the games that WoW ripped off. I mean, seriously, even the original Warcraft series was a rip of Warhammer from GW.
Where Blizzard has been successful is in their psychological study of the general populace while marketing and catering to the highly repetitive needs of the ADHD masses looking for that match of a 3D chatroom and playing Bejeweled.
They offer a Ferrari made from generic parts, with a smaller motor, an automatic transmission, and at a cheap enough price that they can make money from the masses... offering new stickers that will make the car appear to go faster every six months or so.
As much as people may hate what is going on with the MMO market, the simple fact is that the money is behind the market going that way... so for those of us that want more, there simply are not enough of us to support the business model.
The financial people are not going to take a risk on putting out a game that we appear to want, because as has been stated repeatedly - we really do not know what we want.
But still, c'mon - Blizzard as an innovator? The chuckle from that is wearing thin...
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%
EQ was beginning it’s instanced changes, which were crud and the community was trying to navigate the devs away from going extreme with it. Many went to EQ2, but were disillusioned as it was more the extreme. Some returned to EQ1, some filtered into other games. SWG went through catastrophic changes as well, each one driving players away. UO went item base like EQ, which didn’t fit. DAoC did junk too, but DAoC players can explain it better than I can. Who DIDN’T try vanilla WoW? Does that make me a WoW player sold out on the game? How many players such as I quit then to have others subscribe as the existing players pulled their friends in? Are you trying to say the culmination of WoW players were long time vets? The chart really does not cover the details. Maybe a phone poll would work better hehe
M59, UO, EQ1, WWIIOL, PS, EnB, SL, SWG. MoM, EQ2, AO, SB, CoH, LOTRO, WoW, DDO+ f2p's, Demos & indie alpha's.
I remember at the time, while WoW was doing its beta - Shadowbane was also doing the beta for Throne of Oblivion. Most folks I know walked away from SB over the ToO beta even though WoW had such Fisher Price graphics. It is kind of funny, if you think about it - how many people ended up playing WoW because the games they enjoyed playing started massively screwing them all up around the same time? It was not necessarily a case that Blizzard offered us cake or anything, but companies that had been giving us cake started giving us burnt toast crumblies instead...
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%
But the points I mentioned, understanding the time-line of events in the major games, while looking at the chart, notice EVE, Dofus and even LOTRO picking up the declining vet subs, with a given of pause between choices.
M59, UO, EQ1, WWIIOL, PS, EnB, SL, SWG. MoM, EQ2, AO, SB, CoH, LOTRO, WoW, DDO+ f2p's, Demos & indie alpha's.
And lest look at the millions chart. Lineage, WoW, Aion, Runescape. Compare it to the thousands chart and the vast majority of mainstream mmo's that came out after WoW, perhaps in some regard trying to emulate it, fail to accomplish what an indie studio has; CCP.
I hear ya bro.
.
Looks like all those EQ1, UO vets when to dofus.
.
French aint it?
Well shave my back and call me an elf! -- Oghren
EVE and LOTRO don't count now? I know LOTRO had a lot of EQ players. EVE of course SWG. DAoC went someplace, but I was never connected with it's community so don't really want to guess, though I doubt WoW due to the play style. If WoW's volume was other than from DIablo and various CRPG's, but from the vet mmo players, then subs would be near zero to fill the volume. WoW players had to come from some place, I don't think Blizzard spawned them... you say from the games I mentioned, but then who started playing the games that were more similar to those to some degree? Refugees from EA Land?
M59, UO, EQ1, WWIIOL, PS, EnB, SL, SWG. MoM, EQ2, AO, SB, CoH, LOTRO, WoW, DDO+ f2p's, Demos & indie alpha's.
Looking at the chart, it's obvious that WoW got a big chunk of the EQ, DAoC, UO, SWG subscriber base.
.
Maybe you were happy with those games, but looks like a whole chunk of your fellow players weren't.
.
WoW lanched in late 2004. LotRO launched about 3 years later. Maybe all those old school players quit your games in 2004 and hung out 3 years for LotRO? Doubt it.
Well shave my back and call me an elf! -- Oghren
I didn’t say they all went to LOTRO, just like I didn’t say they all went to Dofus. WoW released 2005 in EU, end of 2004 US. LOTRO picked up a little over two years later. EVE was already running but started to take off after SWG declined. From the losses, there is not enough to fill WoW, especially if you factor in the gains. It’s one big X where it all meets in the middle, a swap of players, not a mass exodus to WoW. Your browser is displaying the chart with the text in the correct direction, right? You should be able to read it without tilting your head
M59, UO, EQ1, WWIIOL, PS, EnB, SL, SWG. MoM, EQ2, AO, SB, CoH, LOTRO, WoW, DDO+ f2p's, Demos & indie alpha's.