....blizzard needs to die to give mmos a chance to thrive again....
This.
Most new MMOs follow WoWs footsteps wanting to stay with the "tried and true formula". Innovation is what'll bring success to any upcoming MMO and that is the reason why we all are anticipating games like The Secret World and Guild Wars II and not too happy about the way SW:TOR is going. (or maybe I'm the lone skeptic of TOR )
Innovation is what'll bring success to any upcoming MMO and that is the reason why we all are anticipating games like The Secret World and Guild Wars II and not too happy about the way SW:TOR is going. (or maybe I'm the lone skeptic of TOR )
Nope, exactly my feeling. I respect and admire Bioware, I think they're one of the few companies that hasn't lost their daring to risks with not giving into merely making Baldur's Gate or Kotor sequels but instead introducing new IP's. And I really enjoyed Dragon Age and Mass Effect 2, but I haven't read that much about ToR that I found really impressive, in contrast to a GW2 and TSW.
I'm just hoping Bioware is not making the wrong decisions with TOR design & development in their search to do some things differently. I guess we'll see.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Then he says farmville doesn't deserve the name video game. Granted i haven't played it myself. But to not even be called a video game? What color is the sky in this guys world, it certainly aint blue.
There was an article here on MMORPG.com a while back that highlighted exactly why it shouldn't be considered a game... the answer is simply because there is nothing entertaining about it.
Then he lists things he doesn't like about wow, and just sort of asserts that these things are more bad than good. Anyone whose read any number of threads here knows better. He must be a newbie.
You realise that you're just sort of asserting that they're more good than bad right? The number of posts in favour of them on a discussion forum says nothing of how good or bad the features are. Also he was comparing them to the original concept of MMOs. Those features directly contradict the original intent of the genre and so in terms of the MMO genre they certainly are bad things... whether they're good or bad as game features in isolation is a different matter.
A game doesn't stop becoming a game when its not entertaining. Entertaining is subjective in any event. Chess isn't entertaining. But it is a game. The only thing a game needs is to be winnable or losable. And even then theres a whole class of games RPG that aren't winnable or losable to any big degree.
I'm not asserting that they are good more than bad. Or at least i didn't mean to say that. I just wanted to point out that these points are very debateable and when you look at the debates, the arguments tend to be against what this guy says. If he had just one point that could stand on its own, he would have been better to show that, rather than list 10 highly suspect features.
And you call farmvile a video game?!?!?!?! This game was just created to suck the money of those who use facebook and have no idea about video games
Sadly, your definition of what is a video game and what isn't does not line up with the industry's.
The irony being how easy we can identify the shallowness to Farmville, but yet those who are sucked into the same ploys within the MMORPG genre, fail to recognize them.
That is exactly right, and we're not saying NO to save WoW, because it is already a lost cause. We are saying NO to dissuade the next group of greedy suits who decide to emulate Blizzard and Cryptic, etc. We can prevent some of the future games from spewing this crap, but the sooner we start saying no, the better the results will be. So - Stand up, pull up your pants, and walk away. - MMO_Doubter
here is the first little list of things on the article that the writer said WoW introduced to mmo's.
NPC’s with exclamation marks above their heads?
Solo to the level cap?
EQ1 had this already
Instanced dungeons?
again, EQ1 had already invented this (LDoN)
Arenas?
Daily quests?
Nexus: Kingdom of the Winds had this LONG before WoW was a thought
Overpowered hero class?
Achievements?
The Dungeon Finder tool?
which makes WoW even less original since half of the mechanics were just stolen from the previous games and every person who became assimilated to the wow herd forgot.
but overall Wolfshead is completely right. my old mmo'ing buddies of 2d mmos and eq1 daoc golden days are all zombies for blizzard now. and we cant all forget the awesome videos on youtube of people on the verge of suicide when their wow accounts get hacked and shit like that.
blizzard needs to die to give mmos a chance to thrive again
Nice to see people still blaming Blizzard. You just summed up the whole idiotic topic in one line. good job. Just shows how useless this whole discussion is when people can't even think or write one line without bashing WOW or Blizzard. But that was the intention of original topic to begin with..attract all the wow haters out of the woods.
Article summary: "I don't like WOW, so it shouldn't exist."
Just seems like a lot of hot air. WOW will continue to exist. Many continue to enjoy it.
Nobody thinks Cataclysm is a "cure" for anything. It's more WOW. People who like WOW want more WOW.
I mean, as much as the guy can pile up criticisms of things like community, the people who like WOW just don't care. They're obviously not there for the same reasons as the author (nevermind the fact that plenty of community exists within guilds in WOW; what more do you really get out of communities larger than a guild-sized community anyway? ...that you don't still already get inside WOW's communities, that is...)
I dunno, maybe I'm weird for thinking that it's the companies failing to provide good products who should be criticized, rather than the company providing the product people like.
Provide a fun, compelling, new MMORPG experience and people will buy it. Even the WOW players, if your new experience is truly fun.
Sums up the whole thread: except for the fact that now Blizzard is "accused" for creating a succesful game.
While companies producing "duds" is the fault of the WOW players.
Yep. This IS mmorpg.com.
You OBVIOUSLY did not read the article in the second link I posted which says NOTHING of WoW or Blizzard, was written before WoW was even released, and STILL prophetically details what we have seen happen in the genre.
I actually wonder if you read all of the first article. The part that was the most telling to ME...was all the stuff about FARMVILLE, not WoW. But it seems some posters prefer to be upset about the WoW references and discredit the ENTIRE article, ignoring the whole deal about Farmville. In all honesty.....I see Farmville as a FAR GREATER threat to social gaming (which includes MMOs, or at least used to) than WoW. Farmville has a LOT MORE "players" than WoW, and is, imo....a cancer to the gaming industry.
As a matter of fact....maybe everyone missing all the Farmville stuff is also a bit prophetic, as some people "poo poo" the idea that Farmville is any kind of problem, while it slowly eats away at the very premise of gaming, while, for the most part, flying completely under the radar.
You know, I don't get some of you people. Do you think you are in some kind of unique group or so?
What is this playing victim-like attitude, 'boohoo, everybody is hating WoW, boohoo' ?
Wake up! Every single MMO discussed here is getting heat of people disliking it or downright hating the MMO or company that made it.
Did you think you were unique? Look at the forumsections for EQ2, STO, AoC, WAR, SWG, DFO or other SOE or Cryptic Studios games, just to name a few, and see how much scorn or flaming is going on there too. That's what you get when you visit a site that's a platform for all kinds of games and not just a forum dedicated to one MMO: there will be lots more people who plainly don't like the game you're playing whatever that one may be.
And what is this, turning everything into a 'oh, I hear some criticism, clearly, it's a bunch of WoW haters again'? Have some of you gotten that thin a skin that you can't handle any form of discussion anymore at the merest mention of criticism of the game you're playing? What, those people automatically become WoW haters?!?
Grow up!
I have followed this thread and there's a lot more debate going on here than just the simplified 'oh, I read something bad about WoW, it's probably another WoW hate thread' that some posters here want to make of it. Try getting a broader perspective sometimes, you might like it.
Seriously it's difficult to debate on these forums because honestly....we're ALL attached to whatever games we enjoy playing, I know I sometimes get pretty bent out of shape when I PERCEIVE that people are doggin' on EQ2, BUT....I'm at least willing to admit that SoE has done some HORRIBLE things, and that EQ2 is not perfect by any stretch of the imagination. I just happen to enjoy the game....right now. It has certain features that, for me, are a requirement in an MMO. Features that I can't find anywhere else, so...for now...I play EQ2.
BUT....to be unwilling to accept and/or even SEE that Blizzard and WoW are not the ONLY game/developer that takes a beating around here, makes people that act like they're unique in that...look as grown up and mature as whining 2 year olds in the grocery isle of the local supermarket. Not pointin' any fingers...I've been that whining brat too, and it looks just as bad when ANY of us do that.
It's also mind boggling to me that most people that were offended by the first article I linked...made NO COMMENTS at all about the second one which doesn't mention WoW even ONCE and was written long before the first one. The poster that suggested THAT article...was spot on. It was prophetic in nature. Some of the problems we see today are forewarned in great detail there. I'm sure people must have ignored it back when it was written too, and yet...here we are...right in the middle of what it said would happen.
I wish I had led off with the second article I linked, rather than the first...but I didn't know that article EXISTED until it was pointed out to me. Perhaps then this thread would have unfolded a bit differently....who knows?
I was talking about specific comment by the guy whom i quoted. There is difference between giving opinion and then saying something as stupid as 'Blizzard needs to die'. What is so smart and intelligent about such comments? after statements like these where is the room left for anything beyond pro WOW or anti WOW? as far as selective picking didn't you just do the same? you want to have a intelligent discussion? well it goes both ways.
As far as being sensitive, 'Blizzard need to die' is not what i call criticism. But you are too biased to even understand what critcism really means. I think you are the one who got riled up after reading my post though.
The fact that you defending him says it all for me and also sums up the entire discussion.
I actually wonder if you read all of the first article. The part that was the most telling to ME...was all the stuff about FARMVILLE, not WoW. But it seems some posters prefer to be upset about the WoW references and discredit the ENTIRE article, ignoring the whole deal about Farmville. In all honesty.....I see Farmville as a FAR GREATER threat to social gaming (which includes MMOs, or at least used to) than WoW. Farmville has a LOT MORE "players" than WoW, and is, imo....a cancer to the gaming industry.
I agree, even if Farmville is a game and many people are enjoying it, it has a design philosophy that could be worrying for people like most of us who are enjoying our games to be different from a Farmville. Especialy if Farmville sets off a trend in the online games market, because of its huge popularity.
Many among us may scorn it, but Farmville targets an audience of which many have little experience with MMO's at all: what WoW was to many, their 1st introduction into the world of online games, is Farmville to a far larger group as well, their first introduction into the world of online games. And there are many MMO companies who don't scorn at Farmville at all, but just as many did with WoW are trying to see what aspects of Farmville can be used in their current and upcoming games.
We don't know what this will lead to in the end, but personally I won't like the Farmville model starting to dominate the MMO market. Luckily there are also other MMO's upcoming who shine a brighter, more promising light in the MMO field.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
here is the first little list of things on the article that the writer said WoW introduced to mmo's.
NPC’s with exclamation marks above their heads?
Solo to the level cap?
EQ1 had this already
Instanced dungeons?
again, EQ1 had already invented this (LDoN)
Arenas?
Daily quests?
Nexus: Kingdom of the Winds had this LONG before WoW was a thought
Overpowered hero class?
Achievements?
The Dungeon Finder tool?
which makes WoW even less original since half of the mechanics were just stolen from the previous games and every person who became assimilated to the wow herd forgot.
but overall Wolfshead is completely right. my old mmo'ing buddies of 2d mmos and eq1 daoc golden days are all zombies for blizzard now. and we cant all forget the awesome videos on youtube of people on the verge of suicide when their wow accounts get hacked and shit like that.
blizzard needs to die to give mmos a chance to thrive again
Nice to see people still blaming Blizzard. You just summed up the whole idiotic topic in one line. good job. Just shows how useless this whole discussion is when people can't even think or write one line without bashing WOW or Blizzard. But that was the intention of original topic to begin with..attract all the wow haters out of the woods.
Wow. Just wow. First of all, not everyone in this thread is "bashing Blizzard." Secondly, did you happen to read both the articles?? Because, as I said before, the first one focuses a lot on FARMVILLE also, and makes some VERY good points about it, and the second one was written in 2004 BEFORE WoW was even released and doesn't mention WoW even ONCE, but DOES prophetically detail right where the MMO genre finds itself today.
I, for one, have said NOTHING "hateful" about Blizzard, and yet you call my topic "idiotic," the discussion "useless," and say people can't even think or write "one line" without bashing WoW or Blizzard, and then ACCUSE me of having the evil "intent" of attracting the WoW "haters" out of the woods?
Frankly....I think you owe me an apology...along with probably owing about half the posters in the thread one.
here is the first little list of things on the article that the writer said WoW introduced to mmo's.
NPC’s with exclamation marks above their heads?
Solo to the level cap?
EQ1 had this already
Instanced dungeons?
again, EQ1 had already invented this (LDoN)
Arenas?
Daily quests?
Nexus: Kingdom of the Winds had this LONG before WoW was a thought
Overpowered hero class?
Achievements?
The Dungeon Finder tool?
which makes WoW even less original since half of the mechanics were just stolen from the previous games and every person who became assimilated to the wow herd forgot.
but overall Wolfshead is completely right. my old mmo'ing buddies of 2d mmos and eq1 daoc golden days are all zombies for blizzard now. and we cant all forget the awesome videos on youtube of people on the verge of suicide when their wow accounts get hacked and shit like that.
blizzard needs to die to give mmos a chance to thrive again
Nice to see people still blaming Blizzard. You just summed up the whole idiotic topic in one line. good job. Just shows how useless this whole discussion is when people can't even think or write one line without bashing WOW or Blizzard. But that was the intention of original topic to begin with..attract all the wow haters out of the woods.
Wow. Just wow. First of all, not everyone in this thread is "bashing Blizzard." Secondly, did you happen to read both the articles?? Because, as I said before, the first one focuses a lot on FARMVILLE also, and makes some VERY good points about it, and the second one was written in 2004 BEFORE WoW was even released and doesn't mention WoW even ONCE, but DOES prophetically detail right where the MMO genre finds itself today.
I, for one, have said NOTHING "hateful" about Blizzard, and yet you call my topic "idiotic," the discussion "useless," and say people can't even think or write "one line" without bashing WoW or Blizzard, and then ACCUSE me of having the evil "intent" of attracting the WoW "haters" out of the woods?
Frankly....I think you owe me an apology...along with probably owing about half the posters in the thread one.
Owe you an apology? you got be kidding me? first of all stop thinking that every time i talk about original topic i am talking about you. Secondly, i read 15 pages and most of the replies are more or less the same..'blizzard needs to die' comment was just icing on the cake.
The only thing that need to die is brain dead developers trying to copy WOW.
blizzard needs to die to give mmos a chance to thrive again
Please tell me you were joking? how is it Blizzards fault if everyone is trying to copy their success? when i read comments like these i can't help but shake my head in disbelief. And anyone who defends comments like this can not hide behind 'its just a criticism' bullcrap.
I was talking about specific comment by the guy whom i quoted. There is difference between giving opinion and then saying something as stupid as 'Blizzard needs to die'. What is so smart and intelligent about such comments? after statements like these where is the room left for anything beyond pro WOW or anti WOW? as far as selective picking didn't you just do the same? you want to have a intelligent discussion? well it goes both ways.
As far as being sensitive, 'Blizzard need to die' is not what i call criticism. But you are too biased to even understand what critcism really means. I think you are the one who got riled up after reading my post though.
The fact that you defending him says it all for me and also sums up the entire discussion.
See. You're doing it again. Is the affronted victim role that fun to hang around in?
Don't get me wrong, I didn't like the tone how that guy was saying it as well, neither did I agree with him. In my eyes what he was doing was just as bad as what you're doing, distorting what I was saying to 'prove' I'm biased and a hater: haters, and those who can't see the world in nothing but black&white and start 'proving' any criticism on WoW or Blizzard (or any other company or game) means you're a hater, they're all the same to me.
I didn't reply on your post because you thought that guy went too far. I posted because you picked that post and used it to 'prove' that the OP was intended as a troll post and that everyone who was in this discussion/thread was automatically a WoW hater. You didn't even bother to read the 2nd article where there was no mention of WoW at all, you went straight to your conclusions. Sounds like bias to me.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
I was talking about specific comment by the guy whom i quoted. There is difference between giving opinion and then saying something as stupid as 'Blizzard needs to die'. What is so smart and intelligent about such comments? after statements like these where is the room left for anything beyond pro WOW or anti WOW? as far as selective picking didn't you just do the same? you want to have a intelligent discussion? well it goes both ways.
As far as being sensitive, 'Blizzard need to die' is not what i call criticism. But you are too biased to even understand what critcism really means. I think you are the one who got riled up after reading my post though.
The fact that you defending him says it all for me and also sums up the entire discussion.
See. You're doing it again. Is the affronted victim role that fun to hang around in?
Don't get me wrong, I didn't like the tone how that guy was saying it as well, neither did I agree with him. In my eyes what he was doing was just as bad as what you're doing, distorting what I was saying to 'prove' I'm biased and a hater: haters, those who can't see the world in nothing but black&white and start 'proving' any criticism on WoW or Blizzard (or any other company or game) means you're a hater, they're all the same to me.
I didn't reply on your post because you thought that guy went too far. I posted because you picked that post and used it to 'prove' that the OP was intended as a troll post and that everyone who was in this discussion/thread was automatically a WoW hater. You didn't even bother to read the 2nd article where there was no mention of WoW at all, you went straight to your conclusions. Sounds like bias to me.
You assume too much or you are reading something which isn't there. I read the post too and i don't see getalife blaming everyone. He was talking about that particular guy. But are you surprised how the topic turned out? WOW and Blizzard bashers came in droves to spread vitrol all over the topic? that is why such topic will never end well because in the end majority (not all) will blame Blizzard only without realising that fault lies with devs who are trying to copy WOW and not the Blizzard itself. The only victim role i see is from people who want to blame everything on WOW and feel sorry for themselves and how MMO genre is turning out to be.
However, i would like to thank this topic. I just ended up resubbing to WOW again.
blizzard needs to die to give mmos a chance to thrive again
Please tell me you were joking? how is it Blizzards fault if everyone is trying to copy their success? when i read comments like these i can't help but shake my head in disbelief. And anyone who defends comments like this can not hide behind 'its just a criticism' bullcrap.
I have to agree on this. I think a HUGE part of the problem is the financial backers for MMOs in general. They're not gamers...they're financiers. They want every MMO to make the money WoW has made...period. This puts ridiculous pressure, I'm sure, on game developers, and is probably, in part....why we see the "WoW clone" trend, as ridiculous as that is, because seriously....who's going to leave WoW to play a direct WoW clone? That's completely illogical.
I'm not a developer, so I'm just talking from a layman's understanding here, but I would guess with the PRESSURE to make truckloads of money to appease your financiers....developers probably try to make their games ENOUGH "like WoW" in the assumption that Blizzard has found "the formula" for making the big bucks. Sadly....that backfires, because...like I said....who's going to leave WoW to play....well....WoW?????
I certainly do not think "Blizzard needs to die." I think some other developer or developers....need to grow some balls (pardon the expression) and take the huge risks it requires to bring about real innovation and make it FUN, and NOT make it "like WoW," but make it as POLISHED as WoW while being an ENTIRELY different thing.
You assume too much or you are reading something which isn't there. I read the post too and i don't see getalife blaming everyone. He was talking about that particular guy. But are you surprised how the topic turned out? WOW and Blizzard bashers came in droves to spread vitrol all over the topic? that is why such topic will never end well because in the end majority (not all) will blame Blizzard only without realising that fault lies with devs who are trying to copy WOW and not the Blizzard itself. The only victim role i see is from people who want to blame everything on WOW and feel sorry for themselves and how MMO genre is turning out to be.
However, i would like to thank this topic. I just ended up resubbing to WOW again.
I don't see how this thread could get you to resub WoW again, must've been some... interesting decisionmaking, but hey, if you felt the urge to play WoW again, by all means, go ahead and enjoy yourself
I agree, that a lot of what is wrong with the current MMO market is because a lot of MMO companies tried to just copy WoW gameplay aspects and failed to deliver their own game. Next to that, and think of it what you like, I think Blizzard has taken a wrong course with some of their decisions with WoW. I liked WoW vanilla a lot better than what it is now.
But what really annoys me is that a discussion as the OP promoted can't be done normally without a thread getting derailed - again! - into a pro WoW - anti WoW pissing contest.
So if people could refrain with WoW and Blizzard comparing to devil's work, and others refrain from getting all enraged when they see (perceived) bits of WoW/Blizzard criticism, that'd be great. Won't happen though, so yes, it's annoying.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
However, i would like to thank this topic. I just ended up resubbing to WOW again.
Well good for you! If you enjoy the game, you SHOULD resub! Although I get the feeling you're making that proclamation in an attempt to "upset" the "WoW haters," what I don't think some posters are STILL getting...is that we're not having a conversation about WoW OR Blizzard here, but about what has happened to the genre in the past five years. THAT is a pretty difficult conversation to HAVE without ever mentioning World of Warcraft, is it not?
I think there have been a lot of bright, articulate comments in this thread that have NOT been "blaming WoW," but those have been glossed over by some, so as to point out all the "vitriol," that you perceive, toward WoW. Sometimes, it really does appear to be a bit of a persecution complex.
I'm completely open to discussing how other trends in gaming have affected the genre....games like Farmville, and the sudden insurgence of the FPS lobby games being called MMOs, etc. I don't think a LOT of us posting in their thread find ALL FAULT at the feet of Blizzard or WoW, but neither do we excuse them as contributors to today's world of MMOs.....
But anyway....enjoy WoW again! And I sincerely mean that. Everyone should play the games they ENJOY...isn't that the POINT of playing a game?
You assume too much or you are reading something which isn't there. I read the post too and i don't see getalife blaming everyone. He was talking about that particular guy. But are you surprised how the topic turned out? WOW and Blizzard bashers came in droves to spread vitrol all over the topic? that is why such topic will never end well because in the end majority (not all) will blame Blizzard only without realising that fault lies with devs who are trying to copy WOW and not the Blizzard itself. The only victim role i see is from people who want to blame everything on WOW and feel sorry for themselves and how MMO genre is turning out to be.
However, i would like to thank this topic. I just ended up resubbing to WOW again.
I don't see how this thread could get you to resub WoW again, must've been some... interesting decisionmaking, but hey, if you felt the urge to play WoW again, by all means, go ahead and enjoy yourself
Hahah because Blizzard gets a lot of unfair and unwanted bashing. Moreover, i have been on break for 5 months and with new dungeon tool i can finally do low level content which i had to skip because it was pain to find teams. So thanks to wolfshead and his rant, it just encouraged me to activate my account again.
blizzard needs to die to give mmos a chance to thrive again
Please tell me you were joking? how is it Blizzards fault if everyone is trying to copy their success? when i read comments like these i can't help but shake my head in disbelief. And anyone who defends comments like this can not hide behind 'its just a criticism' bullcrap.
Shastra, Complication didn't mean to imply that WoW was the a pile of evil that had to be destroyed or something. The thing is that most (if not all) developers look at WoW's success and hope to emulate that by copying its mechanics- the good, bad, everything. That is the reason as to why we are where we are today. As long as WoW is the money maker that it is for Blizzard there is almost no hope for something innovative to come up by a big developer, hell, even TOR looks like a "WoW clone" to me.
Comments
This.
Most new MMOs follow WoWs footsteps wanting to stay with the "tried and true formula". Innovation is what'll bring success to any upcoming MMO and that is the reason why we all are anticipating games like The Secret World and Guild Wars II and not too happy about the way SW:TOR is going. (or maybe I'm the lone skeptic of TOR
)
Arenas-
Meridian59 had an Arena to battle without the punishment after death
Nope, exactly my feeling. I respect and admire Bioware, I think they're one of the few companies that hasn't lost their daring to risks with not giving into merely making Baldur's Gate or Kotor sequels but instead introducing new IP's. And I really enjoyed Dragon Age and Mass Effect 2, but I haven't read that much about ToR that I found really impressive, in contrast to a GW2 and TSW.
I'm just hoping Bioware is not making the wrong decisions with TOR design & development in their search to do some things differently. I guess we'll see.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
I liked it, it was very true. I agree with a lot of what was said.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
A game doesn't stop becoming a game when its not entertaining. Entertaining is subjective in any event. Chess isn't entertaining. But it is a game. The only thing a game needs is to be winnable or losable. And even then theres a whole class of games RPG that aren't winnable or losable to any big degree.
I'm not asserting that they are good more than bad. Or at least i didn't mean to say that. I just wanted to point out that these points are very debateable and when you look at the debates, the arguments tend to be against what this guy says. If he had just one point that could stand on its own, he would have been better to show that, rather than list 10 highly suspect features.
most of zygna games are played by non-gamers...
And you call farmvile a video game?!?!?!?! This game was just created to suck the money of those who use facebook and have no idea about video games
Its more like a chore if you ask me.
Sadly, your definition of what is a video game and what isn't does not line up with the industry's.
The irony being how easy we can identify the shallowness to Farmville, but yet those who are sucked into the same ploys within the MMORPG genre, fail to recognize them.
That is exactly right, and we're not saying NO to save WoW, because it is already a lost cause. We are saying NO to dissuade the next group of greedy suits who decide to emulate Blizzard and Cryptic, etc.
We can prevent some of the future games from spewing this crap, but the sooner we start saying no, the better the results will be.
So - Stand up, pull up your pants, and walk away.
- MMO_Doubter
Nice to see people still blaming Blizzard. You just summed up the whole idiotic topic in one line. good job. Just shows how useless this whole discussion is when people can't even think or write one line without bashing WOW or Blizzard. But that was the intention of original topic to begin with..attract all the wow haters out of the woods.
You OBVIOUSLY did not read the article in the second link I posted which says NOTHING of WoW or Blizzard, was written before WoW was even released, and STILL prophetically details what we have seen happen in the genre.
I actually wonder if you read all of the first article. The part that was the most telling to ME...was all the stuff about FARMVILLE, not WoW. But it seems some posters prefer to be upset about the WoW references and discredit the ENTIRE article, ignoring the whole deal about Farmville. In all honesty.....I see Farmville as a FAR GREATER threat to social gaming (which includes MMOs, or at least used to) than WoW. Farmville has a LOT MORE "players" than WoW, and is, imo....a cancer to the gaming industry.
As a matter of fact....maybe everyone missing all the Farmville stuff is also a bit prophetic, as some people "poo poo" the idea that Farmville is any kind of problem, while it slowly eats away at the very premise of gaming, while, for the most part, flying completely under the radar.
President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club
Agrred. What wolf saying is right.Especially concerning gameplay ,community, players getting in the trip to farm aka robots for emblems.
Seriously it's difficult to debate on these forums because honestly....we're ALL attached to whatever games we enjoy playing, I know I sometimes get pretty bent out of shape when I PERCEIVE that people are doggin' on EQ2, BUT....I'm at least willing to admit that SoE has done some HORRIBLE things, and that EQ2 is not perfect by any stretch of the imagination. I just happen to enjoy the game....right now. It has certain features that, for me, are a requirement in an MMO. Features that I can't find anywhere else, so...for now...I play EQ2.
BUT....to be unwilling to accept and/or even SEE that Blizzard and WoW are not the ONLY game/developer that takes a beating around here, makes people that act like they're unique in that...look as grown up and mature as whining 2 year olds in the grocery isle of the local supermarket. Not pointin' any fingers...I've been that whining brat too, and it looks just as bad when ANY of us do that.
It's also mind boggling to me that most people that were offended by the first article I linked...made NO COMMENTS at all about the second one which doesn't mention WoW even ONCE and was written long before the first one. The poster that suggested THAT article...was spot on. It was prophetic in nature. Some of the problems we see today are forewarned in great detail there. I'm sure people must have ignored it back when it was written too, and yet...here we are...right in the middle of what it said would happen.
I wish I had led off with the second article I linked, rather than the first...but I didn't know that article EXISTED until it was pointed out to me. Perhaps then this thread would have unfolded a bit differently....who knows?
President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club
So what i got from reading most of the replies? everything is Blizzards fault. ok that was really new information for me. No kidding.
I was talking about specific comment by the guy whom i quoted. There is difference between giving opinion and then saying something as stupid as 'Blizzard needs to die'. What is so smart and intelligent about such comments? after statements like these where is the room left for anything beyond pro WOW or anti WOW? as far as selective picking didn't you just do the same? you want to have a intelligent discussion? well it goes both ways.
As far as being sensitive, 'Blizzard need to die' is not what i call criticism. But you are too biased to even understand what critcism really means. I think you are the one who got riled up after reading my post though.
The fact that you defending him says it all for me and also sums up the entire discussion.
I agree, even if Farmville is a game and many people are enjoying it, it has a design philosophy that could be worrying for people like most of us who are enjoying our games to be different from a Farmville. Especialy if Farmville sets off a trend in the online games market, because of its huge popularity.
Many among us may scorn it, but Farmville targets an audience of which many have little experience with MMO's at all: what WoW was to many, their 1st introduction into the world of online games, is Farmville to a far larger group as well, their first introduction into the world of online games. And there are many MMO companies who don't scorn at Farmville at all, but just as many did with WoW are trying to see what aspects of Farmville can be used in their current and upcoming games.
We don't know what this will lead to in the end, but personally I won't like the Farmville model starting to dominate the MMO market. Luckily there are also other MMO's upcoming who shine a brighter, more promising light in the MMO field.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Wow. Just wow. First of all, not everyone in this thread is "bashing Blizzard." Secondly, did you happen to read both the articles?? Because, as I said before, the first one focuses a lot on FARMVILLE also, and makes some VERY good points about it, and the second one was written in 2004 BEFORE WoW was even released and doesn't mention WoW even ONCE, but DOES prophetically detail right where the MMO genre finds itself today.
I, for one, have said NOTHING "hateful" about Blizzard, and yet you call my topic "idiotic," the discussion "useless," and say people can't even think or write "one line" without bashing WoW or Blizzard, and then ACCUSE me of having the evil "intent" of attracting the WoW "haters" out of the woods?
Frankly....I think you owe me an apology...along with probably owing about half the posters in the thread one.
President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club
Owe you an apology? you got be kidding me? first of all stop thinking that every time i talk about original topic i am talking about you. Secondly, i read 15 pages and most of the replies are more or less the same..'blizzard needs to die' comment was just icing on the cake.
The only thing that need to die is brain dead developers trying to copy WOW.
Please tell me you were joking? how is it Blizzards fault if everyone is trying to copy their success? when i read comments like these i can't help but shake my head in disbelief. And anyone who defends comments like this can not hide behind 'its just a criticism' bullcrap.
See. You're doing it again. Is the affronted victim role that fun to hang around in?
Don't get me wrong, I didn't like the tone how that guy was saying it as well, neither did I agree with him. In my eyes what he was doing was just as bad as what you're doing, distorting what I was saying to 'prove' I'm biased and a hater: haters, and those who can't see the world in nothing but black&white and start 'proving' any criticism on WoW or Blizzard (or any other company or game) means you're a hater, they're all the same to me.
I didn't reply on your post because you thought that guy went too far. I posted because you picked that post and used it to 'prove' that the OP was intended as a troll post and that everyone who was in this discussion/thread was automatically a WoW hater. You didn't even bother to read the 2nd article where there was no mention of WoW at all, you went straight to your conclusions. Sounds like bias to me.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
You assume too much or you are reading something which isn't there. I read the post too and i don't see getalife blaming everyone. He was talking about that particular guy. But are you surprised how the topic turned out? WOW and Blizzard bashers came in droves to spread vitrol all over the topic? that is why such topic will never end well because in the end majority (not all) will blame Blizzard only without realising that fault lies with devs who are trying to copy WOW and not the Blizzard itself. The only victim role i see is from people who want to blame everything on WOW and feel sorry for themselves and how MMO genre is turning out to be.
However, i would like to thank this topic. I just ended up resubbing to WOW again.
I have to agree on this. I think a HUGE part of the problem is the financial backers for MMOs in general. They're not gamers...they're financiers. They want every MMO to make the money WoW has made...period. This puts ridiculous pressure, I'm sure, on game developers, and is probably, in part....why we see the "WoW clone" trend, as ridiculous as that is, because seriously....who's going to leave WoW to play a direct WoW clone? That's completely illogical.
I'm not a developer, so I'm just talking from a layman's understanding here, but I would guess with the PRESSURE to make truckloads of money to appease your financiers....developers probably try to make their games ENOUGH "like WoW" in the assumption that Blizzard has found "the formula" for making the big bucks. Sadly....that backfires, because...like I said....who's going to leave WoW to play....well....WoW?????
I certainly do not think "Blizzard needs to die." I think some other developer or developers....need to grow some balls (pardon the expression) and take the huge risks it requires to bring about real innovation and make it FUN, and NOT make it "like WoW," but make it as POLISHED as WoW while being an ENTIRELY different thing.
Someone....STEP UP TO THE FOOKING PLATE ALREADY!
President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club
I don't see how this thread could get you to resub WoW again, must've been some... interesting decisionmaking, but hey, if you felt the urge to play WoW again, by all means, go ahead and enjoy yourself
I agree, that a lot of what is wrong with the current MMO market is because a lot of MMO companies tried to just copy WoW gameplay aspects and failed to deliver their own game. Next to that, and think of it what you like, I think Blizzard has taken a wrong course with some of their decisions with WoW. I liked WoW vanilla a lot better than what it is now.
But what really annoys me is that a discussion as the OP promoted can't be done normally without a thread getting derailed - again! - into a pro WoW - anti WoW pissing contest.
So if people could refrain with WoW and Blizzard comparing to devil's work, and others refrain from getting all enraged when they see (perceived) bits of WoW/Blizzard criticism, that'd be great. Won't happen though, so yes, it's annoying.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Well good for you! If you enjoy the game, you SHOULD resub! Although I get the feeling you're making that proclamation in an attempt to "upset" the "WoW haters," what I don't think some posters are STILL getting...is that we're not having a conversation about WoW OR Blizzard here, but about what has happened to the genre in the past five years. THAT is a pretty difficult conversation to HAVE without ever mentioning World of Warcraft, is it not?
I think there have been a lot of bright, articulate comments in this thread that have NOT been "blaming WoW," but those have been glossed over by some, so as to point out all the "vitriol," that you perceive, toward WoW. Sometimes, it really does appear to be a bit of a persecution complex.
I'm completely open to discussing how other trends in gaming have affected the genre....games like Farmville, and the sudden insurgence of the FPS lobby games being called MMOs, etc. I don't think a LOT of us posting in their thread find ALL FAULT at the feet of Blizzard or WoW, but neither do we excuse them as contributors to today's world of MMOs.....
But anyway....enjoy WoW again!
And I sincerely mean that. Everyone should play the games they ENJOY...isn't that the POINT of playing a game?
President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club
Hahah because Blizzard gets a lot of unfair and unwanted bashing. Moreover, i have been on break for 5 months and with new dungeon tool i can finally do low level content which i had to skip because it was pain to find teams. So thanks to wolfshead and his rant, it just encouraged me to activate my account again.
Shastra, Complication didn't mean to imply that WoW was the a pile of evil that had to be destroyed or something. The thing is that most (if not all) developers look at WoW's success and hope to emulate that by copying its mechanics- the good, bad, everything. That is the reason as to why we are where we are today. As long as WoW is the money maker that it is for Blizzard there is almost no hope for something innovative to come up by a big developer, hell, even TOR looks like a "WoW clone" to me.