Hahah because Blizzard gets a lot of unfair and unwanted bashing. Moreover, i have been on break for 5 months and with new dungeon tool i can finally do low level content which i had to skip because it was pain to find teams. So thanks to wolfshead and his rant, it just encouraged me to activate my account again.
Well, let me break it to you, Blizzard or WoW are far from alone in that, there's a lot of MMO's and MMO companies that are getting a more than is fair share of bashing and flaming over them, I think there are only a few that manage to escape that fate.
Comes with people talking in extreme statements and people being focused on only highlighting the good or only the bad of a game or company.
On the other hand, threads where everyone talks reasonable and sees the good and bad aspects of any topics would become bland pretty fast.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
The one thing that concerns me in all of this is the language that is being used. they evoke images of companies being physically destroyed....now I don't know about you guys but in this day of lets set off a U-haul full of cow shit to make our point...I think there is better ways to communicate concern over your favorite game genre.
While I think the bulk Todeswulf's article is over the top, I do agree that there is way too much hate speak aimed at guys who are basically showing up to work each day to feed their families,(Jon Wood makes some good points on this in his Us Vs Them Article) and I agree that I would not be surprised if one day something very tragic happens...and If that ever happens my friends you can pretty much bet that being a gamer will have the same connotations as being an <Instert Nutjob Militia name here > Member.
This sword here at my side dont act the way it should Keeps calling me its master, but I feel like its slave Hauling me faster and faster to an early, early grave And it howls! it howls like hell!
The one thing that concerns me in all of this is the language that is being used. they evoke images of companies being physically destroyed....now I don't know about you guys but in this day of lets set off a U-haul full of cow shit to make our point...I think there is better ways to communicate concern over your favorite game genre.
While I think the bulk Todeswulf's article is over the top, I do agree that there is way too much hate speak aimed at guys who are basically showing up to work each day to feed their families,(Jon Wood makes some good points on this in his Us Vs Them Article) and I agree that I would not be surprised if one day something very tragic happens...and If that ever happens my friends you can pretty much bet that being a gamer will have the same connotations as being an Member.
I'm pretty goshdern sure that only ONE poster in this thread said anything that could even REMOTELY be construed as violent in nature, and frankly....his comment was pretty open to interpretation. Personally, when I first read it, I thought he was referring to Blizzard's popularity waning to make room for change in the genre. I didn't interpret him meaning "die" as in a horrible violent physical death...?? O.o But...you know...if you're not very specific when you say something...it CAN come back to bite ya in the ass, so...you're right.
But I completely agree about "hatespeak" in general. And also.... the WORD "hate" is tossed about on gaming forums like nothing. It's completely lost its meaning. Hatespeak that is truly hate...is repulsive, but so is the misuse of the word "hate" in making accusations toward someone who may simply just disagree with you.
Seems anytime anyone around here dislikes anything someone else LIKES...they're accused of "hating." It's really gotten rather ridiculous to the point of, half the time, not even being able to carry on a decent discussion without that accusation flying about. So ridiculous.
The one thing that concerns me in all of this is the language that is being used. they evoke images of companies being physically destroyed....now I don't know about you guys but in this day of lets set off a U-haul full of cow shit to make our point...I think there is better ways to communicate concern over your favorite game genre.
While I think the bulk Todeswulf's article is over the top, I do agree that there is way too much hate speak aimed at guys who are basically showing up to work each day to feed their families,(Jon Wood makes some good points on this in his Us Vs Them Article) and I agree that I would not be surprised if one day something very tragic happens...and If that ever happens my friends you can pretty much bet that being a gamer will have the same connotations as being an Member.
As much as part of what you're saying is understandable.. The part of "feed their families" I disagree completely.. I've been in partnership in a small corporation and have had my fill of the dog eat dog world called capitalism these days.. To excuse bad conduct, or bad business in the namesake of supporting the family is what is wrong with the world today.. Should a crooked used car saleman be allowed to sway, con and mislead customers because he has a family to support? Are gaming companies now a days becoming the same way? Does a dev have the right to mislead, con or trick customers just because it's only a job and he needs to "feed their family"?
One major difference between computer gaming companies and the rest of the world.. If you are unsatisfied with the product you purchased.. RETURN with refund Even some car companies (GM of recent) was gving full refunds within 30 days if you weren't happy.. Gaming companies never have to back up their product with guarantees, warranties or refunds, so why should they care if the product or service is good or not..
As many have said including myself in years past.. We the customers must hold the gaming companies accountable, regardless if they have families or not.. and demand better using our voice and wallets..
Just another whiney wall of text how no one is producing games for minor audience. There are another x clone posts that can be found on these forums.
The world is changing such as are player and the games. Some people are just not getting it...probably because they 'refuse to mature into adulthood'...
The one thing that concerns me in all of this is the language that is being used. they evoke images of companies being physically destroyed....now I don't know about you guys but in this day of lets set off a U-haul full of cow shit to make our point...I think there is better ways to communicate concern over your favorite game genre.
While I think the bulk Todeswulf's article is over the top, I do agree that there is way too much hate speak aimed at guys who are basically showing up to work each day to feed their families,(Jon Wood makes some good points on this in his Us Vs Them Article) and I agree that I would not be surprised if one day something very tragic happens...and If that ever happens my friends you can pretty much bet that being a gamer will have the same connotations as being an Member.
As much as part of what you're saying is understandable.. The part of "feed their families" I disagree completely.. I've been in partnership in a small corporation and have had my fill of the dog eat dog world called capitalism these days.. To excuse bad conduct, or bad business in the namesake of supporting the family is what is wrong with the world today.. Should a crooked used car saleman be allowed to sway, con and mislead customers because he has a family to support? Are gaming companies now a days becoming the same way? Does a dev have the right to mislead, con or trick customers just because it's only a job and he needs to "feed their family"?
One major difference between computer gaming companies and the rest of the world.. If you are unsatisfied with the product you purchased.. RETURN with refund Even some car companies (GM of recent) was gving full refunds within 30 days if you weren't happy.. Gaming companies never have to back up their product with guarantees, warranties or refunds, so why should they care if the product or service is good or not..
As many have said including myself in years past.. We the customers must hold the gaming companies accountable, regardless if they have families or not.. and demand better using our voice and wallets..
I don't know where have you been but lots of gaming companies offer such refunds for both online and offline games. Cryptic is one example and i even got refund on LOTR life time. but it doesn't mean you can come after 6 months and then ask for refunds.
Also i don't get the con and mislead part? how can a company mislead you or con you in buying something? in todays world of fast information readily available on internet it takes few clicks of mouse to get all info you need before making a purchase. there is alpha, closed and open betas along with first look, previews and reviews, why not make an informed decision on your own? as far as changes that occur months or years after game release are necessary evil. You may not agree with the changes but doesn't mean they trying to con you.
So yeah devs are not some greedy con artisit cackling in the dark, he is a guy who show up at a job everyday because he has to earn a living. if you think you were mislead by company then you were naive enough to not do your own research before buying the product and fell victim to hype machine (which again has nothing to do with devs). 8 years and going and no company was ever been able to con me.
Good read and so true. Many truisms that more mmorpg enthusasts post about here, and those in which the same arcade-game enthusasts flood-in with opposing points.
"As each year passes MMOs have become more infantile and simplistic in order to pander to the lowest common denominator."
Such as: Instant Travel. Single-Player game-play emphasis. Community demeaning. Ignorance of player-centric influential atmosphere. 'x' marks the spot quest running. Heavily instanced worlds. Raid gear importance as opposed to player crafted. Heroism amounts to hitting masses of npc mobs and the same mob boss over and over. The list goes on.
And because of this old MUDs are more fun than the majority of MMOs out these days.
________________________________________________________ Sorcery must persist, the future is the Citadel
The one thing that concerns me in all of this is the language that is being used. they evoke images of companies being physically destroyed....now I don't know about you guys but in this day of lets set off a U-haul full of cow shit to make our point...I think there is better ways to communicate concern over your favorite game genre.
While I think the bulk Todeswulf's article is over the top, I do agree that there is way too much hate speak aimed at guys who are basically showing up to work each day to feed their families,(Jon Wood makes some good points on this in his Us Vs Them Article) and I agree that I would not be surprised if one day something very tragic happens...and If that ever happens my friends you can pretty much bet that being a gamer will have the same connotations as being an Member.
As much as part of what you're saying is understandable.. The part of "feed their families" I disagree completely.. I've been in partnership in a small corporation and have had my fill of the dog eat dog world called capitalism these days.. To excuse bad conduct, or bad business in the namesake of supporting the family is what is wrong with the world today.. Should a crooked used car saleman be allowed to sway, con and mislead customers because he has a family to support? Are gaming companies now a days becoming the same way? Does a dev have the right to mislead, con or trick customers just because it's only a job and he needs to "feed their family"?
One major difference between computer gaming companies and the rest of the world.. If you are unsatisfied with the product you purchased.. RETURN with refund Even some car companies (GM of recent) was gving full refunds within 30 days if you weren't happy.. Gaming companies never have to back up their product with guarantees, warranties or refunds, so why should they care if the product or service is good or not..
As many have said including myself in years past.. We the customers must hold the gaming companies accountable, regardless if they have families or not.. and demand better using our voice and wallets..
I don't know where have you been but lots of gaming companies offer such refunds for both online and offline games. Cryptic is one example and i even got refund on LOTR life time. but it doesn't mean you can come after 6 months and then ask for refunds.
Also i don't get the con and mislead part? how can a company mislead you or con you in buying something? in todays world of fast information readily available on internet it takes few clicks of mouse to get all info you need before making a purchase. there is alpha, closed and open betas along with first look, previews and reviews, why not make an informed decision on your own? as far as changes that occur months or years after game release are necessary evil. You may not agree with the changes but doesn't mean they trying to con you.
So yeah devs are not some greedy con artisit cackling in the dark, he is a guy who show up at a job everyday because he has to earn a living. if you think you were mislead by company then you were naive enough to not do your own research before buying the product and fell victim to hype machine (which again has nothing to do with devs). 8 years and going and no company was ever been able to con me.
Incorrect.. You break the seal of a game.. you own it.. I have never seen any store or gaming company offer refunds because you don't like the game.. offerening people a chance to change their lifetime subs to monthly subs is not the same as a FULL REFUND Show me ONE ad that says "satisifation guaranteed" I'll be waiting
The one thing that concerns me in all of this is the language that is being used. they evoke images of companies being physically destroyed....now I don't know about you guys but in this day of lets set off a U-haul full of cow shit to make our point...I think there is better ways to communicate concern over your favorite game genre.
While I think the bulk Todeswulf's article is over the top, I do agree that there is way too much hate speak aimed at guys who are basically showing up to work each day to feed their families,(Jon Wood makes some good points on this in his Us Vs Them Article) and I agree that I would not be surprised if one day something very tragic happens...and If that ever happens my friends you can pretty much bet that being a gamer will have the same connotations as being an Member.
As much as part of what you're saying is understandable.. The part of "feed their families" I disagree completely.. I've been in partnership in a small corporation and have had my fill of the dog eat dog world called capitalism these days.. To excuse bad conduct, or bad business in the namesake of supporting the family is what is wrong with the world today.. Should a crooked used car saleman be allowed to sway, con and mislead customers because he has a family to support? Are gaming companies now a days becoming the same way? Does a dev have the right to mislead, con or trick customers just because it's only a job and he needs to "feed their family"?
One major difference between computer gaming companies and the rest of the world.. If you are unsatisfied with the product you purchased.. RETURN with refund Even some car companies (GM of recent) was gving full refunds within 30 days if you weren't happy.. Gaming companies never have to back up their product with guarantees, warranties or refunds, so why should they care if the product or service is good or not..
As many have said including myself in years past.. We the customers must hold the gaming companies accountable, regardless if they have families or not.. and demand better using our voice and wallets..
I don't know where have you been but lots of gaming companies offer such refunds for both online and offline games. Cryptic is one example and i even got refund on LOTR life time. but it doesn't mean you can come after 6 months and then ask for refunds.
Also i don't get the con and mislead part? how can a company mislead you or con you in buying something? in todays world of fast information readily available on internet it takes few clicks of mouse to get all info you need before making a purchase. there is alpha, closed and open betas along with first look, previews and reviews, why not make an informed decision on your own? as far as changes that occur months or years after game release are necessary evil. You may not agree with the changes but doesn't mean they trying to con you.
So yeah devs are not some greedy con artisit cackling in the dark, he is a guy who show up at a job everyday because he has to earn a living. if you think you were mislead by company then you were naive enough to not do your own research before buying the product and fell victim to hype machine (which again has nothing to do with devs). 8 years and going and no company was ever been able to con me.
Incorrect.. You break the seal of a game.. you own it.. I have never seen any store or gaming company offer refunds because you don't like the game.. offerening people a chance to change their lifetime subs to monthly subs is not the same as a FULL REFUND Show me ONE ad that says "satisifation guaranteed" I'll be waiting
Tell me any product which says 'satisfaction guaranteed' and they mean what they say or you are satisfied 100% every time? and i just told you Cyptic offered refunds on lifetimes and i got my refund from Turbie within first week. And no i didn't turn it into monthly sub i got all of my money back. Only because you didn't see it doesn't mean it didn't happen.
It's like the Ford versus Chevy debate that rages in some parts of the country. . You laugh, but people have died over this argument, alcohol being involved.
I do agree with the articale linked in the OP, it has gotten to a point where parents have to turn off the computer tell their kids to go play outside, hell i even sometimes need to take a few days off from MMO gaming because of how disgusted i feel sometime. Right now it's a problem both players and developers are creating that is making this industry a little stagnate.
I do agree with the articale linked in the OP, it has gotten to a point where parents have to turn off the computer tell their kids to go play outside, hell i even sometimes need to take a few days off from MMO gaming because of how disgusted i feel sometime. Right now it's a problem both players and developers are creating that is making this industry a little stagnate.
Agreed Devil.. As I was trying to say in another post.. There is a psychological addiction being used in the design of many MMO's, and I'm surprised how so many MMO experts have avoided that the pleague.. We now have legal warnings how extended gameplay can "effect" your body.. That isn't the only thing.. However, I think by addressing and possibly LIMITING the psychology of the typical MMO formula would directly effect the bottom line profit of these companies..
You OBVIOUSLY did not read the article in the second link I posted which says NOTHING of WoW or Blizzard, was written before WoW was even released, and STILL prophetically details what we have seen happen in the genre.
I actually wonder if you read all of the first article. The part that was the most telling to ME...was all the stuff about FARMVILLE, not WoW. But it seems some posters prefer to be upset about the WoW references and discredit the ENTIRE article, ignoring the whole deal about Farmville. In all honesty.....I see Farmville as a FAR GREATER threat to social gaming (which includes MMOs, or at least used to) than WoW. Farmville has a LOT MORE "players" than WoW, and is, imo....a cancer to the gaming industry.
As a matter of fact....maybe everyone missing all the Farmville stuff is also a bit prophetic, as some people "poo poo" the idea that Farmville is any kind of problem, while it slowly eats away at the very premise of gaming, while, for the most part, flying completely under the radar.
I skimmed the entire article. Not a light skimming, but I tasted each paragraph until the bitterness of the pervading theme of "I hate WOW and want it to die" caused me to skip on to the next paragraph. (Honestly I did read it a little more than that, but the guy struggled to push my attention away by singing the same exact note repetitively -- a note which I've heard sung better here at MMORPG.com.)
I mean I could get a bit deeper and point out that another of his themes (apart from "WOW shouldn't exist") is that "This isn't an MMORPG" which essentially boils down to "Stop having fun that way! I don't have fun that way, so stop having fun that way!"
It's just the completely wrong angle to approach the discussion -- let alone if you actually want to help establish change.
The correct angle would be:
WOW exists. It's not going away. People have fun with it. And that's fine.
But the industry needs more innovation, and people aren't going to pay for an inferior WOW clone.
Here is one such method that a game could innovate.
I mean if the guy has any serious interest in guiding the industry away from the Pit of WOW, why not act like it? Instead he focuses on some impossible scenario where WOW goes "poof" and ceases to exist. That ain't happening, so people who truly want change need to focus on redirecting the industry's efforts away from WOW clones -- by purchasing the innovative games which are substantially different, and by commonly discussing ways of making games interesting in new ways.
The chance of any individual post like that changing things is extremely small, however developers are gamers too (well, the good ones) and if they can't visit any community website without being bombarded with ideas that innovate the genre, then that will affect future game development. If all they see are rants, then...well they'll know there's a disgruntled minority at least, but it won't exactly guide them someplace better.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
You OBVIOUSLY did not read the article in the second link I posted which says NOTHING of WoW or Blizzard, was written before WoW was even released, and STILL prophetically details what we have seen happen in the genre.
I actually wonder if you read all of the first article. The part that was the most telling to ME...was all the stuff about FARMVILLE, not WoW. But it seems some posters prefer to be upset about the WoW references and discredit the ENTIRE article, ignoring the whole deal about Farmville. In all honesty.....I see Farmville as a FAR GREATER threat to social gaming (which includes MMOs, or at least used to) than WoW. Farmville has a LOT MORE "players" than WoW, and is, imo....a cancer to the gaming industry.
As a matter of fact....maybe everyone missing all the Farmville stuff is also a bit prophetic, as some people "poo poo" the idea that Farmville is any kind of problem, while it slowly eats away at the very premise of gaming, while, for the most part, flying completely under the radar.
I skimmed the entire article. Not a light skimming, but I tasted each paragraph until the bitterness of the pervading theme of "I hate WOW and want it to die" caused me to skip on to the next paragraph. (Honestly I did read it a little more than that, but the guy struggled to push my attention away by singing the same exact note repetitively -- a note which I've heard sung better here at MMORPG.com.)
I mean I could get a bit deeper and point out that another of his themes (apart from "WOW shouldn't exist") is that "This isn't an MMORPG" which essentially boils down to "Stop having fun that way! I don't have fun that way, so stop having fun that way!"
It's just the completely wrong angle to approach the discussion -- let alone if you actually want to help establish change.
The correct angle would be:
WOW exists. It's not going away. People have fun with it. And that's fine.
But the industry needs more innovation, and people aren't going to pay for an inferior WOW clone.
Here is one such method that a game could innovate.
I mean if the guy has any serious interest in guiding the industry away from the Pit of WOW, why not act like it? Instead he focuses on some impossible scenario where WOW goes "poof" and ceases to exist. That ain't happening, so people who truly want change need to focus on redirecting the industry's efforts away from WOW clones -- by purchasing the innovative games which are substantially different, and by commonly discussing ways of making games interesting in new ways.
The chance of any individual post like that changing things is extremely small, however developers are gamers too (well, the good ones) and if they can't visit any community website without being bombarded with ideas that innovate the genre, then that will affect future game development. If all they see are rants, then...well they'll know there's a disgruntled minority at least, but it won't exactly guide them someplace better.
Well I DEFNITELY agree with a lot of what you said there. I mean...you didn't really say anything about the Farmville part of the article, or about the second article, which is more about how "newbies" define the genre (and not at ALL about WoW), but you did say a lot of things there that ring true with me, for sure...
You touched on something I wonder about....how can a developer make a game that is newbie friendly, BUT...still challenging for the more experienced gamers and BE innovative without diluting some of the parts of the genre that help to define it and while NOT copying or mimicking any present day MMO? Hell I'm sure there are developers sitting around right NOW trying to figure that out. Maybe EVE comes close to doing all that, but...there are still, of course, people that will find it boring and unimaginative, and not compelling at all for various reasons. For some it will be as simple as it's...a space MMO. Blah.
So there's really NO way at all for a developer to make a game that pleases everyone. What are the alternatives? And ONE of those if focusing on the casual player...we've seen that going on...are there OTHER things they could do that would bring in as much money, I wonder, rather than morphing the genre into a purely casual one?
I don't know....I'm just talkin' off the top of my head now. I'm very interested to see what we get with GW2 and TSW, and WoD (if anything). IMO...there really needs to be something fresh and new that feels "unexplored" for me, anyway.
Just another whiney wall of text how no one is producing games for minor audience. There are another x clone posts that can be found on these forums.
The world is changing such as are player and the games. Some people are just not getting it...probably because they 'refuse to mature into adulthood'...
Gosh...you make almost as many assumptions there as the writer of the article is accused of making.
I don't think it means that people are "refusing to mature into adulthood," simply because they want something fresh and interesting in their media hobby..... O.o That's kind of a big stretch there.
i can understand the points about farmville and other games on facebook and it makes me want to slap mmo developers when i hear how good they talk about it because i know they dont care about the games they produce just the dollars or they are spewing out the corporate line of garbage. The rest of that article It sounded like a little kid angry that the kid down the street got a better or bigger toy than he did.
wow did not kill the genre, it made the genre, before wow games mmo games were struggling to make decent profits, had 120k to 200k subs and was otherwise known as things people that had no lives and lived in their parents basement did and people made fun of them. well maybe they did make a profit but nowhere near like now.
we all remember the stories about the eq player that supposedly quit his job as a executive and wound up losing everything and was homeless or committed suicide or whatever, i had a friend that played asherons call so much you couldnt get him out the house, he never took baths and played over 22 hours a day. wow made the games social, made it so you could play a few hours a day and get somewhere so people that didnt play all the time could compete. wow made mmo gaming and games in general mainstream, acceptable. NOw i dotn like wow, but not because of the game, i love the game, it just sucks too much of my life away, personally to me wow still takes too much time if you want to raid, i would like to see raids that take less than 2 hours personally but that is off topic.
quit hating on wow, they didnt destroy video games, they made video games accepted. for those that want to go back to ultima online days, ultima might of been a better game, never played it myself but i do know very few people will play that type of game anymore and if you want games like that well there are about 5 or so out right now that is the same way. themeparks are the wave of the future, or a themepark/sandbox hybrid i think would be good but a pure sandbox is nothing but work and we as game players generally want to be entertained by a game not have a second job.
i can understand the points about farmville and other games on facebook and it makes me want to slap mmo developers when i hear how good they talk about it because i know they dont care about the games they produce just the dollars or they are spewing out the corporate line of garbage. The rest of that article It sounded like a little kid angry that the kid down the street got a better or bigger toy than he did.
wow did not kill the genre, it made the genre, before wow games mmo games were struggling to make decent profits, had 120k to 200k subs and was otherwise known as things people that had no lives and lived in their parents basement did and people made fun of them. well maybe they did make a profit but nowhere near like now.
we all remember the stories about the eq player that supposedly quit his job as a executive and wound up losing everything and was homeless or committed suicide or whatever, i had a friend that played asherons call so much you couldnt get him out the house, he never took baths and played over 22 hours a day. wow made the games social, made it so you could play a few hours a day and get somewhere so people that didnt play all the time could compete. wow made mmo gaming and games in general mainstream, acceptable.
quit hating on wow, they didnt destroy video games, they made video games accepted. for those that want to go back to ultima online days, ultima might of been a better game, never played it myself but i do know very few people will play that type of game anymore and if you want games like that well there are about 5 or so out right now that is the same way. themeparks are the wave of the future, or a themepark/sandbox hybrid i think would be good but a pure sandbox is nothing but work and we as game players generally want to be entertained by a game not have a second job.
(Mod Edited)
Here are the facts
Everquest 1 peaked at over 500k only Wow, Aion are having more subs!
WoW didn't make the genre. Meridian 59 made it
Everquest 1 made a huge profit just do the maths
Themparks aren't the future
speak for yourself "you want to be entertained" others want a virtual world
oh yeah the "I had a friend story" doesn't make your post better
WoW created the subgenre MMO yes but thats about it.
Ultima Online is crap since Trammel
We need a MMORPG Cataclysm asap, finish the dark age of MMORPGS now!
"Everything you're bitching about is wrong. People don't have the time to invest in corpse runs, impossible zones, or long winded quests. Sometimes, they just want to pop on and play." "Then maybe MMORPGs aren't for you."
speak for yourself "you want to be entertained" others want a virtual world
These are not facts. Just your opinion. In fact, just by the popularity of WOW, i would say you are wrong about the future and probably more people want to be entertained than those who wants a virtual world.
I think they just need to make a true virtual world that is NOT FFA PVP and the players will come because it is different and interesting, and not too scary (because every single FFA PvP MMO does FFA wrong.)
Fast/instant travel is GOOD if used appropriately, especially if it allows players to depend on other players (specialized) for such travel options.
Instancing is good if used sparingly and only for "epic" encounters. What WoW really did wrong was make the "epic" encounters in dungeons and raids common place every day garbage, which made the rest of the open world worthless and merely a lobby for players to hang out in before getting together for "teh epic" dungeons and raids.
Keep all/most of the day to day every day (even group and raid) content in the open world, but have instances for the really "epic" story encounter type of stuff and you can retain immersion and community without any of the problems of camping/kill stealing etc.
You are't suppose to instance run with PUGs or your guild/raid your entire time spent in a MMORPG. These are suppose to be"epic" and interesting encounters, not farmed content.
You're suppose to spend lots more time outside of instances then in them. WoW got this RIGHT in Vanilla, and very very wrong in TBC and especially WotLK.
It's not that these systems or ideas are bad ideas or bad systems, they have just been designed and implemented in ways that have not been good for the massively multiplayer online role playing part of MMORPGs.
Gosh...you make almost as many assumptions there as the writer of the article is accused of making. I don't think it means that people are "refusing to mature into adulthood," simply because they want something fresh and interesting in their media hobby..... O.o That's kind of a big stretch there.
Assumptions like...?
It is not that stretched even though I was not implying it that way...I was just being sarcastic and used the quote from the author of the article.
Adulthood. If you think that those 'old school' gamers were 13 when UO came out and they still 'miss' that style of gaming, it is indeed a minority because most of the their peers have a work, girlfriend(s), family, play squash or golf, building their own house, traveling and do other million of things that are more important to them than playing a video game.
All those people who now play games like Farmville because they can do it easily at work, people who enjoy fast travel and raid finder or cash shops because they have much less spare time for gaming.
From this point of view, you can really wonder who is refusing to mature here...the games or so called 'old school' players?
Gosh...you make almost as many assumptions there as the writer of the article is accused of making.
I don't think it means that people are "refusing to mature into adulthood," simply because they want something fresh and interesting in their media hobby..... O.o That's kind of a big stretch there.
Assumptions like...?
It is not that stretched even though I was not implying it that way...I was just being sarcastic and used the quote from the author of the article.
Adulthood. If you think that those 'old school' gamers were 13 when UO came out and they still 'miss' that style of gaming, it is indeed a minority because most of the their peers have a work, girlfriend(s), family, play squash or golf, building their own house, traveling and do other million of things that are more important to them than playing a video game.
All those people who now play games like Farmville because they can do it easily at work, people who enjoy fast travel and raid finder or cash shops because they have much less spare time for gaming.
From this point of view, you can really wonder who is refusing to mature here...the games or so called 'old school' players?
Eh...
So thats it? Thats all we get? Casual games for casual players is fine, but as long as its accepted by all, that is all we will ever have. Some of us want more.
So thats it? Thats all we get? Casual games for casual players is fine, but as long as its accepted by all, that is all we will ever have. Some of us want more.
My question is whether enough of us want it. Maybe not.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
So thats it? Thats all we get? Casual games for casual players is fine, but as long as its accepted by all, that is all we will ever have. Some of us want more.
My question is whether enough of us want it. Maybe not.
Well if there were that many of those who want something differen then WOW, games like FE, MO, Ryzom etc would be more popular and not struggling with subs. I said this before, games you guys want are already here. So don't just talk big and go ahead and show your support for games which are not WOW clone. You want to make a difference? you have all the oppertunity in world to back up indie developers.
Gosh...you make almost as many assumptions there as the writer of the article is accused of making.
I don't think it means that people are "refusing to mature into adulthood," simply because they want something fresh and interesting in their media hobby..... O.o That's kind of a big stretch there.
Assumptions like...?
It is not that stretched even though I was not implying it that way...I was just being sarcastic and used the quote from the author of the article.
Adulthood. If you think that those 'old school' gamers were 13 when UO came out and they still 'miss' that style of gaming, it is indeed a minority because most of the their peers have a work, girlfriend(s), family, play squash or golf, building their own house, traveling and do other million of things that are more important to them than playing a video game.
All those people who now play games like Farmville because they can do it easily at work, people who enjoy fast travel and raid finder or cash shops because they have much less spare time for gaming.
From this point of view, you can really wonder who is refusing to mature here...the games or so called 'old school' players?
Eh...
So because I want deep and complex games that require more of a time investment, and I can't stand "games" like Farmville, I'm immature from your point of view?
I wouldn't label you immature because you like games that are "quicker to get into", I would just assume you have less time you're willing to invest in this hobby.
Personally I'm out at a pub or a patio with friends at least a couple times a week. I'm an avid Boater, I go fishing all the time, and I've been weight lifting/cardio training/swimming for 8-10 hours a week for almost fifteen years. I also have a full-time career. No kids, but I've been with the same high maintenance lady for 12 years.
I make time for the kinds of games I like, because that's what I like. Just because your life is filled to the point where you only have time for games like Farmville, that doesn't magically inject you with a boost to your maturity.
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
Comments
Well, let me break it to you, Blizzard or WoW are far from alone in that, there's a lot of MMO's and MMO companies that are getting a more than is fair share of bashing and flaming over them, I think there are only a few that manage to escape that fate.
Comes with people talking in extreme statements and people being focused on only highlighting the good or only the bad of a game or company.
On the other hand, threads where everyone talks reasonable and sees the good and bad aspects of any topics would become bland pretty fast.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
The one thing that concerns me in all of this is the language that is being used. they evoke images of companies being physically destroyed....now I don't know about you guys but in this day of lets set off a U-haul full of cow shit to make our point...I think there is better ways to communicate concern over your favorite game genre.
While I think the bulk Todeswulf's article is over the top, I do agree that there is way too much hate speak aimed at guys who are basically showing up to work each day to feed their families,(Jon Wood makes some good points on this in his Us Vs Them Article) and I agree that I would not be surprised if one day something very tragic happens...and If that ever happens my friends you can pretty much bet that being a gamer will have the same connotations as being an <Instert Nutjob Militia name here > Member.
This sword here at my side dont act the way it should
Keeps calling me its master, but I feel like its slave
Hauling me faster and faster to an early, early grave
And it howls! it howls like hell!
I'm pretty goshdern sure that only ONE poster in this thread said anything that could even REMOTELY be construed as violent in nature, and frankly....his comment was pretty open to interpretation. Personally, when I first read it, I thought he was referring to Blizzard's popularity waning to make room for change in the genre. I didn't interpret him meaning "die" as in a horrible violent physical death...?? O.o But...you know...if you're not very specific when you say something...it CAN come back to bite ya in the ass, so...you're right.
But I completely agree about "hatespeak" in general. And also.... the WORD "hate" is tossed about on gaming forums like nothing. It's completely lost its meaning. Hatespeak that is truly hate...is repulsive, but so is the misuse of the word "hate" in making accusations toward someone who may simply just disagree with you.
Seems anytime anyone around here dislikes anything someone else LIKES...they're accused of "hating." It's really gotten rather ridiculous to the point of, half the time, not even being able to carry on a decent discussion without that accusation flying about. So ridiculous.
President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club
As much as part of what you're saying is understandable.. The part of "feed their families" I disagree completely.. I've been in partnership in a small corporation and have had my fill of the dog eat dog world called capitalism these days.. To excuse bad conduct, or bad business in the namesake of supporting the family is what is wrong with the world today.. Should a crooked used car saleman be allowed to sway, con and mislead customers because he has a family to support? Are gaming companies now a days becoming the same way? Does a dev have the right to mislead, con or trick customers just because it's only a job and he needs to "feed their family"?
One major difference between computer gaming companies and the rest of the world.. If you are unsatisfied with the product you purchased.. RETURN with refund
Even some car companies (GM of recent) was gving full refunds within 30 days if you weren't happy.. Gaming companies never have to back up their product with guarantees, warranties or refunds, so why should they care if the product or service is good or not..
As many have said including myself in years past.. We the customers must hold the gaming companies accountable, regardless if they have families or not.. and demand better using our voice and wallets..
Stopped reading in the middle of 2nd paragraph...
Just another whiney wall of text how no one is producing games for minor audience. There are another x clone posts that can be found on these forums.
The world is changing such as are player and the games. Some people are just not getting it...probably because they 'refuse to mature into adulthood'...
I don't know where have you been but lots of gaming companies offer such refunds for both online and offline games. Cryptic is one example and i even got refund on LOTR life time. but it doesn't mean you can come after 6 months and then ask for refunds.
Also i don't get the con and mislead part? how can a company mislead you or con you in buying something? in todays world of fast information readily available on internet it takes few clicks of mouse to get all info you need before making a purchase. there is alpha, closed and open betas along with first look, previews and reviews, why not make an informed decision on your own? as far as changes that occur months or years after game release are necessary evil. You may not agree with the changes but doesn't mean they trying to con you.
So yeah devs are not some greedy con artisit cackling in the dark, he is a guy who show up at a job everyday because he has to earn a living. if you think you were mislead by company then you were naive enough to not do your own research before buying the product and fell victim to hype machine (which again has nothing to do with devs). 8 years and going and no company was ever been able to con me.
And because of this old MUDs are more fun than the majority of MMOs out these days.
________________________________________________________
Sorcery must persist, the future is the Citadel
Keep the comments to the context of the debate; not against other members.
Incorrect.. You break the seal of a game.. you own it.. I have never seen any store or gaming company offer refunds because you don't like the game.. offerening people a chance to change their lifetime subs to monthly subs is not the same as a FULL REFUND
Show me ONE ad that says "satisifation guaranteed" 
I'll be waiting
Tell me any product which says 'satisfaction guaranteed' and they mean what they say or you are satisfied 100% every time? and i just told you Cyptic offered refunds on lifetimes and i got my refund from Turbie within first week. And no i didn't turn it into monthly sub i got all of my money back. Only because you didn't see it doesn't mean it didn't happen.
It's like the Ford versus Chevy debate that rages in some parts of the country.
.
You laugh, but people have died over this argument, alcohol being involved.
Well shave my back and call me an elf! -- Oghren
I do agree with the articale linked in the OP, it has gotten to a point where parents have to turn off the computer tell their kids to go play outside, hell i even sometimes need to take a few days off from MMO gaming because of how disgusted i feel sometime. Right now it's a problem both players and developers are creating that is making this industry a little stagnate.
Agreed Devil.. As I was trying to say in another post.. There is a psychological addiction being used in the design of many MMO's, and I'm surprised how so many MMO experts have avoided that the pleague.. We now have legal warnings how extended gameplay can "effect" your body.. That isn't the only thing.. However, I think by addressing and possibly LIMITING the psychology of the typical MMO formula would directly effect the bottom line profit of these companies..
I skimmed the entire article. Not a light skimming, but I tasted each paragraph until the bitterness of the pervading theme of "I hate WOW and want it to die" caused me to skip on to the next paragraph. (Honestly I did read it a little more than that, but the guy struggled to push my attention away by singing the same exact note repetitively -- a note which I've heard sung better here at MMORPG.com.)
I mean I could get a bit deeper and point out that another of his themes (apart from "WOW shouldn't exist") is that "This isn't an MMORPG" which essentially boils down to "Stop having fun that way! I don't have fun that way, so stop having fun that way!"
It's just the completely wrong angle to approach the discussion -- let alone if you actually want to help establish change.
The correct angle would be:
WOW exists. It's not going away. People have fun with it. And that's fine.
But the industry needs more innovation, and people aren't going to pay for an inferior WOW clone.
Here is one such method that a game could innovate.
I mean if the guy has any serious interest in guiding the industry away from the Pit of WOW, why not act like it? Instead he focuses on some impossible scenario where WOW goes "poof" and ceases to exist. That ain't happening, so people who truly want change need to focus on redirecting the industry's efforts away from WOW clones -- by purchasing the innovative games which are substantially different, and by commonly discussing ways of making games interesting in new ways.
The chance of any individual post like that changing things is extremely small, however developers are gamers too (well, the good ones) and if they can't visit any community website without being bombarded with ideas that innovate the genre, then that will affect future game development. If all they see are rants, then...well they'll know there's a disgruntled minority at least, but it won't exactly guide them someplace better.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Well I DEFNITELY agree with a lot of what you said there. I mean...you didn't really say anything about the Farmville part of the article, or about the second article, which is more about how "newbies" define the genre (and not at ALL about WoW), but you did say a lot of things there that ring true with me, for sure...
You touched on something I wonder about....how can a developer make a game that is newbie friendly, BUT...still challenging for the more experienced gamers and BE innovative without diluting some of the parts of the genre that help to define it and while NOT copying or mimicking any present day MMO? Hell I'm sure there are developers sitting around right NOW trying to figure that out. Maybe EVE comes close to doing all that, but...there are still, of course, people that will find it boring and unimaginative, and not compelling at all for various reasons. For some it will be as simple as it's...a space MMO. Blah.
So there's really NO way at all for a developer to make a game that pleases everyone. What are the alternatives? And ONE of those if focusing on the casual player...we've seen that going on...are there OTHER things they could do that would bring in as much money, I wonder, rather than morphing the genre into a purely casual one?
I don't know....I'm just talkin' off the top of my head now. I'm very interested to see what we get with GW2 and TSW, and WoD (if anything). IMO...there really needs to be something fresh and new that feels "unexplored" for me, anyway.
President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club
Gosh...you make almost as many assumptions there as the writer of the article is accused of making.
I don't think it means that people are "refusing to mature into adulthood," simply because they want something fresh and interesting in their media hobby..... O.o That's kind of a big stretch there.
President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club
i can understand the points about farmville and other games on facebook and it makes me want to slap mmo developers when i hear how good they talk about it because i know they dont care about the games they produce just the dollars or they are spewing out the corporate line of garbage. The rest of that article It sounded like a little kid angry that the kid down the street got a better or bigger toy than he did.
wow did not kill the genre, it made the genre, before wow games mmo games were struggling to make decent profits, had 120k to 200k subs and was otherwise known as things people that had no lives and lived in their parents basement did and people made fun of them. well maybe they did make a profit but nowhere near like now.
we all remember the stories about the eq player that supposedly quit his job as a executive and wound up losing everything and was homeless or committed suicide or whatever, i had a friend that played asherons call so much you couldnt get him out the house, he never took baths and played over 22 hours a day. wow made the games social, made it so you could play a few hours a day and get somewhere so people that didnt play all the time could compete. wow made mmo gaming and games in general mainstream, acceptable. NOw i dotn like wow, but not because of the game, i love the game, it just sucks too much of my life away, personally to me wow still takes too much time if you want to raid, i would like to see raids that take less than 2 hours personally but that is off topic.
quit hating on wow, they didnt destroy video games, they made video games accepted. for those that want to go back to ultima online days, ultima might of been a better game, never played it myself but i do know very few people will play that type of game anymore and if you want games like that well there are about 5 or so out right now that is the same way. themeparks are the wave of the future, or a themepark/sandbox hybrid i think would be good but a pure sandbox is nothing but work and we as game players generally want to be entertained by a game not have a second job.
(Mod Edited)
Here are the facts
Everquest 1 peaked at over 500k only Wow, Aion are having more subs!
WoW didn't make the genre. Meridian 59 made it
Everquest 1 made a huge profit just do the maths
Themparks aren't the future
speak for yourself "you want to be entertained" others want a virtual world
oh yeah the "I had a friend story" doesn't make your post better
WoW created the subgenre MMO yes but thats about it.
Ultima Online is crap since Trammel
We need a MMORPG Cataclysm asap, finish the dark age of MMORPGS now!
"Everything you're bitching about is wrong. People don't have the time to invest in corpse runs, impossible zones, or long winded quests. Sometimes, they just want to pop on and play."
"Then maybe MMORPGs aren't for you."
Here are the facts
Themparks aren't the future
speak for yourself "you want to be entertained" others want a virtual world
These are not facts. Just your opinion. In fact, just by the popularity of WOW, i would say you are wrong about the future and probably more people want to be entertained than those who wants a virtual world.
I think they just need to make a true virtual world that is NOT FFA PVP and the players will come because it is different and interesting, and not too scary (because every single FFA PvP MMO does FFA wrong.)
Fast/instant travel is GOOD if used appropriately, especially if it allows players to depend on other players (specialized) for such travel options.
Instancing is good if used sparingly and only for "epic" encounters. What WoW really did wrong was make the "epic" encounters in dungeons and raids common place every day garbage, which made the rest of the open world worthless and merely a lobby for players to hang out in before getting together for "teh epic" dungeons and raids.
Keep all/most of the day to day every day (even group and raid) content in the open world, but have instances for the really "epic" story encounter type of stuff and you can retain immersion and community without any of the problems of camping/kill stealing etc.
You are't suppose to instance run with PUGs or your guild/raid your entire time spent in a MMORPG. These are suppose to be"epic" and interesting encounters, not farmed content.
You're suppose to spend lots more time outside of instances then in them. WoW got this RIGHT in Vanilla, and very very wrong in TBC and especially WotLK.
It's not that these systems or ideas are bad ideas or bad systems, they have just been designed and implemented in ways that have not been good for the massively multiplayer online role playing part of MMORPGs.
Assumptions like...?
It is not that stretched even though I was not implying it that way...I was just being sarcastic and used the quote from the author of the article.
Adulthood. If you think that those 'old school' gamers were 13 when UO came out and they still 'miss' that style of gaming, it is indeed a minority because most of the their peers have a work, girlfriend(s), family, play squash or golf, building their own house, traveling and do other million of things that are more important to them than playing a video game.
All those people who now play games like Farmville because they can do it easily at work, people who enjoy fast travel and raid finder or cash shops because they have much less spare time for gaming.
From this point of view, you can really wonder who is refusing to mature here...the games or so called 'old school' players?
Eh...
So thats it? Thats all we get? Casual games for casual players is fine, but as long as its accepted by all, that is all we will ever have. Some of us want more.
My question is whether enough of us want it. Maybe not.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
Well if there were that many of those who want something differen then WOW, games like FE, MO, Ryzom etc would be more popular and not struggling with subs. I said this before, games you guys want are already here. So don't just talk big and go ahead and show your support for games which are not WOW clone. You want to make a difference? you have all the oppertunity in world to back up indie developers.
So because I want deep and complex games that require more of a time investment, and I can't stand "games" like Farmville, I'm immature from your point of view?
I wouldn't label you immature because you like games that are "quicker to get into", I would just assume you have less time you're willing to invest in this hobby.
Personally I'm out at a pub or a patio with friends at least a couple times a week. I'm an avid Boater, I go fishing all the time, and I've been weight lifting/cardio training/swimming for 8-10 hours a week for almost fifteen years. I also have a full-time career. No kids, but I've been with the same high maintenance lady for 12 years.
I make time for the kinds of games I like, because that's what I like. Just because your life is filled to the point where you only have time for games like Farmville, that doesn't magically inject you with a boost to your maturity.
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb