So thats it? Thats all we get? Casual games for casual players is fine, but as long as its accepted by all, that is all we will ever have. Some of us want more.
My question is whether enough of us want it. Maybe not.
Well if there were that many of those who want something differen then WOW, games like FE, MO, Ryzom etc would be more popular and not struggling with subs. I said this before, games you guys want are already here. So don't just talk big and go ahead and show your support for games which are not WOW clone. You want to make a difference? you have all the oppertunity in world to back up indie developers.
(Mod Edit)
why are you guys not playing indie games instead of complaining how evil Blizzard is? its not as if there are not enough games which are sandbox and nothing like WOW. is this the best reponse you can come up with? its a valid question why not answer it?
You can't force players to play the way you designed the game to play.
They will always find ways to do something you didn't expect or plan for. At best they'll create new and interesting uses for systems and rules you put into the game. At worse they'll exploit and cheat your systems.
The problem in recent years is that players aren't asking the hard questions anymore, and as such the devs are not coming up with good and innovative answers.
We are simply feeding on the hype the devs are pouring on us. We ask stupid questions about high-concept design features, and we write novels full of useless diatribes ranting and raving about which systems are better and why.. but we NEVER ask the nitty-gritty every day game play questions, and the devs never give us straight answers.
It's all about implementation and the rules - the down and dirty x=y rules that make or break a system.
It doesn't matter how good it sounds on paper and how much hype we can spin for it, it doesn't matter if we write an eleven page forum post detailed why we THINK system A is better then system B because back in the day we walked uphill both ways in the snow and...
It's about what X equals. What Y equals.
We never know that stuff before a game comes out, most of the time even in Beta we have no clue.
Originally posted by Donnny So thats it? Thats all we get? Casual games for casual players is fine, but as long as its accepted by all, that is all we will ever have. Some of us want more.
There will be still some smaller studios that will focus on minor market so that they do not have to compete directly with mainstream titles, something difficult to do with their budget.
Occasionally even some bigger studio might attempt to do something different.
Honestly, and why I see it quite a problem for games developed for minor market, why should anyone risk their money to make a game for something so difficult to define as gaming minority is?
There are unlimited ways how to make a game different from mainstream but what is your target audience, what they want and how large it is, is something so difficult to estimate because anything differing from mainstream is extremely heterogeneous.
There are more indie sandbox FFA PvP type games on the market now then EVER before.
There are also more "featured" guided-content MMOs on the market now then ever before.
It's either the ones we have are no good, we are burnt out/tired of them, or we are just so picky nothing will ever please us because it isn't "perfect."
I know I am a solid mix between "burnt out" after all these years and "so picky nothing will ever please me" because I am getting older and just don't take the time for mediocre games anymore.
Originally posted by Cecropia So because I want deep and complex games that require more of a time investment, and I can't stand "games" like Farmville, I'm immature from your point of view? I wouldn't label you immature because you like games that are "quicker to get into", I would just assume you have less time you're willing to invest in this hobby. Personally I'm out at a pub or a patio with friends at least a couple times a week. I'm an avid Boater, I go fishing all the time, and I've been weight lifting/cardio training/swimming for 8-10 hours a week for almost fifteen years. I also have a full-time career. No kids, but I've been with the same high maintenance lady for 12 years. I make time for the kinds of games I like, because that's what I like. Just because your life is filled to the point where you only have time for games like Farmville, that doesn't magically inject you with a boost to your maturity.
It wasn't me bringing the maturity question to the light here.
I just commented on how immature it is to cry about games not 'maturing and in need of cataclysm' instead of accepting the fact the MMO market is changing and responding to the player base that is also changing.
Taking things out of context makes no good for reading comprehension.
Well I DEFNITELY agree with a lot of what you said there. I mean...you didn't really say anything about the Farmville part of the article, or about the second article, which is more about how "newbies" define the genre (and not at ALL about WoW), but you did say a lot of things there that ring true with me, for sure...
You touched on something I wonder about....how can a developer make a game that is newbie friendly, BUT...still challenging for the more experienced gamers and BE innovative without diluting some of the parts of the genre that help to define it and while NOT copying or mimicking any present day MMO? Hell I'm sure there are developers sitting around right NOW trying to figure that out. Maybe EVE comes close to doing all that, but...there are still, of course, people that will find it boring and unimaginative, and not compelling at all for various reasons. For some it will be as simple as it's...a space MMO. Blah...
The part in yellow above is interesting. What you describe is not happening with current tech I don't think. Asking for a game that doesn't copy or mimic any present day MMO is like asking an FPS not to have a 1st person perspective or a platformer to not be based around jumping puzzles. Its a MMO. Its going to share some basic similarities with other games in the genre. In order to fit in the genre is has to share something with other games within it. What you're really asking for is when MMOs go VR and become something else. Only then will completely new rules apply. You want the same feeling as when you 1st experienced UO or EQ or whatever your 1st MMO was, when there was NOTHING else like it. Well, you're going to waiting a long time. You want that unexplored feeling and no MMO is really going to offer that unless its barely a MMO. You want an ideal. We all want an ideal, but we all have to compromise as well.
What MOST people want is something new, yet familiar. It needs to feel fresh, but they need to "get it" fairly quickly. If its too radical and different, its just not appealing. For me, that was WOW back in 2004. Whatever the next MMO that interests me, it'll need to deliver what Blizzard did back then. NEW, yet familiar. Different, but not so radical that its uninteresting. A virtual world won't be it unless someone can make one with actual content thats NOT designed by its players, something I've yet to see. I won't play a "game" that just mimics real life and expects me to do the same things I do every day. Whats the point in that?
But, I wish you luck finding that magical game again.
It wasn't me bringing the maturity question to the light here.
I just commented on how immature it is to cry about games not 'maturing and in need of cataclysm' instead of accepting the fact the MMO market is changing and responding to the player base that is also changing.
Taking things out of context makes no good for reading comprehension.
The inability to put your thoughts into writing really just slows down the conversation, especially on an internet forum.
"...makes no good for reading comprehension." Thanks, but I'll take advice from someone else.
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
I'm waiting for the game that doesn't have an "END GAME".. I want a game that offers alot more then hack and slash.. Where is my player housing and guild hall in which to socialize in and enjoy? Where are the games with a true player economy? Where is that game with the ever changing world? Where is that game that allows me to enjoy PvP and PvE equaly depending on my mood for the day? Maybe some of us as the article implies want more then a spoon fed diet from Gerbers, and I see more and more of this on the net in the past year or two.. Even websites like "WCO" with their podcast, are starting to turn on Blizzard.. They question themselves and Blizzard quite often of late.. "IS THIS ALL THERE IS?".. Especially their latest podcast #52 I think it is..
I'm waiting for the game that doesn't have an "END GAME".. I want a game that offers alot more then hack and slash.. Where is my player housing and guild hall in which to socialize in and enjoy? Where are the games with a true player economy? Where is that game with the ever changing world? Where is that game that allows me to enjoy PvP and PvE equaly depending on my mood for the day? Maybe some of us as the article implies want more then a spoon fed diet from Gerbers, and I see more and more of this on the net in the past year or two.. Even websites like "WCO" with their podcast, are starting to turn on Blizzard.. They question themselves and Blizzard quite often of late.. "IS THIS ALL THERE IS?".. Especially their latest podcast #52 I think it is..
I'm waiting for the game that doesn't have an "END GAME".. I want a game that offers alot more then hack and slash.. Where is my player housing and guild hall in which to socialize in and enjoy? Where are the games with a true player economy? Where is that game with the ever changing world? Where is that game that allows me to enjoy PvP and PvE equaly depending on my mood for the day? Maybe some of us as the article implies want more then a spoon fed diet from Gerbers, and I see more and more of this on the net in the past year or two.. Even websites like "WCO" with their podcast, are starting to turn on Blizzard.. They question themselves and Blizzard quite often of late.. "IS THIS ALL THERE IS?".. Especially their latest podcast #52 I think it is..
Do you have a link for that?
Anyway, one big problem is that the more parameters WRT game features that are considered, the smaller the niche becomes.
I want a PvP focused game. Okay, lots of people do. Not too small a niche.
I refuse to play if there is a cash shop (even if it's only 'fluff' items). That narrows it down a bit.
I want third person viewpoint, not first person. Just lost some folks with that one.
And so it goes.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
At least this thread got one person to rage quit mmorpg.
.
Why are all of our posts in this topic getting deleted?
.
Where is the love?
I can't take it anymore, I tell ya! I have to ask.
What is with the damn dots?
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
MMO Doubter . if you are asking for the link to WCO.. I'm too lazy at this time.. LOL The website podcast is "Warcraft Outsiders".. very informative trio of adults.. I've haven't followed them long, but did check a few of their most recent podcast and have notice a trend of "bordom".. The tone of the podcast is in the middle.. They are looking forward to new things being brought into the game.. but in the same breath you can tell they are tired of the raid emblem grind..
MMO Doubter . if you are asking for the link to WCO.. I'm too lazy at this time.. LOL The website podcast is "Warcraft Outsiders".. very informative trio of adults.. I've haven't followed them long, but did check a few of their most recent podcast and have notice a trend of "bordom".. The tone of the podcast is in the middle.. They are looking forward to new things being brought into the game.. but in the same breath you can tell they are tired of the raid emblem grind..
Well I DEFNITELY agree with a lot of what you said there. I mean...you didn't really say anything about the Farmville part of the article, or about the second article, which is more about how "newbies" define the genre (and not at ALL about WoW), but you did say a lot of things there that ring true with me, for sure...
You touched on something I wonder about....how can a developer make a game that is newbie friendly, BUT...still challenging for the more experienced gamers and BE innovative without diluting some of the parts of the genre that help to define it and while NOT copying or mimicking any present day MMO? Hell I'm sure there are developers sitting around right NOW trying to figure that out. Maybe EVE comes close to doing all that, but...there are still, of course, people that will find it boring and unimaginative, and not compelling at all for various reasons. For some it will be as simple as it's...a space MMO. Blah.
So there's really NO way at all for a developer to make a game that pleases everyone. What are the alternatives? And ONE of those if focusing on the casual player...we've seen that going on...are there OTHER things they could do that would bring in as much money, I wonder, rather than morphing the genre into a purely casual one?
I don't know....I'm just talkin' off the top of my head now. I'm very interested to see what we get with GW2 and TSW, and WoD (if anything). IMO...there really needs to be something fresh and new that feels "unexplored" for me, anyway.
Well I skipped the Farmville bit because it's such a tiny part of the whole article. Personally I don't feel threatened by Farmville in the slightest.
Think about it. EVE survives as a niche game relative to the entire hardcore market. The entire hardcore market is niche relative to the casual games market, yet it's many times larger than EVE and will continue to survive in the same way.
Honestly I feel casual games are the "gateway drug" to hardcore games. Sure, some will be fine with "farmvilles" forever. But the ones that discover gaming as a real hobby will start to seek out higher quality games.
How can games be deep yet accessible? Well that's the core of Good Game Design, and a simple answer wouldn't really answer the question sufficiently.
As for the nature of "pleasing everyone"? TED Talk:Malcom Gladwell on Spaghetti Sauce. Yes, it's actually about spaghetti sauce. But it answers the concept of "pleasing everyone" far better than I could.
Still, if you don't want to spend 17:33, the basic gist is that:
You can't please everyone with a single product.
It doesn't matter.
Provide each niche with the product it wants, and you'll enjoy success.
Lastly, how can we innovate? Well it's the "while staying true to what MMORPGs are" undertone of your question which is exactly why we have hundreds of WOW clones. When you drop any sense of what a game "should be", you're free to make something wholly innovative.
MMORPGers manufacture their own dissatisfaction when they simultaneously demand Innovation while demanding a game adheres to a specific pre-defined list of features. Pulling on both ends of the rope, essentially.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
I think they just need to make a true virtual world that is NOT FFA PVP and the players will come because it is different and interesting, and not too scary
Good tip, imho.
The #1 thing that is holding the sandbox / virtual world subgenre of MMOs back is the insistence that sandbox = FFA PvP.
Make a sandbox MMO with an town/city/empire-building "endgame" that cribs liberally from games like SimCity, apply the standards of polish that people expect in the post-WoW world, and we'll see whether sandboxes have to be niche games or not.
I think they just need to make a true virtual world that is NOT FFA PVP and the players will come because it is different and interesting, and not too scary
Good tip, imho.
The #1 thing that is holding the sandbox / virtual world subgenre of MMOs back is the insistence that sandbox = FFA PvP.
Make a sandbox MMO with an town/city/empire-building "endgame" that cribs liberally from games like SimCity, apply the standards of polish that people expect in the post-WoW world, and we'll see whether sandboxes have to be niche games or not.
I've been working on that for almost 2 years now as a hobby.. I"ve designed a sandbox game that has no end game, meaning it does not focus on a "end raid" target like games similar to WoW or the like.. Too many sandbox games currently and in years past seemed to focus on FFA PvP play.. IMO, that is very small niched. My game was designed for PvE play, with PvP elements. Both game styles can co-exist in a virtual world.. Problem is, and I'll admit to it, is that a game such as the one I've toyed with for 2 years will take a solid 5 years of dev time, and some cash.. A solid PvE sandbox as I envision will not only take years to complete start to finish, but will require regular changes after it's launched..
Fact is.. I fear what I want, and it appears what many of others want is just not appealling to the corporate decision makers.. Today's MMO market is all about ROI (return on investment).. How fast can we recover our investment with minimal cost.. Nothing else matters.. We see more and more titles released early, unfinished, cash shops popping up like dandilions.. Show me the money!.. lol
Lastly, how can we innovate? Well it's the "while staying true to what MMORPGs are" undertone of your question which is exactly why we have hundreds of WOW clones. When you drop any sense of what a game "should be", you're free to make something wholly innovative.
MMORPGers manufacture their own dissatisfaction when they simultaneously demand Innovation while demanding a game adheres to a specific pre-defined list of features. Pulling on both ends of the rope, essentially.
Great post there....even the stuff I clipped to save space.
The only "demands" I have for an MMORPG is that it stays true to the genre in a VERY few ways....simply the most basic things of what make it an MMORPG (note...mmoRPG, not MMOG, not MMOFPS, not MOG, all those things are sub-genres and I want THEM to exist too for the gamers that enjoy them, but MMORPGs are what I enjoy most).
The few core things, for me, that make an MMORPG an MMORPG are:
1- Some sort of character development mechanics
This does NOT require, or mean, "leveling," imo...but I need to be developing a character in some way. To me, that is part of what makes it a "role playing game." My character is part of the story of some virtual world, and has...a personality, skills, things they "own" in the world, etc. that come from the process of their character developing over the course of some time.
2- Some set of social tools
I don't care what they ARE, particularly, but there must be a way of communicating with, forming groups or alliances with others, such as guilds, etc. And I want these social tools to allow for long term online friendships to be built...in oher words...cross server grouping that doesn't allow for continued contact with people...imo...is not a good thing.
3- MASSIVELY multi-player
I know there are a lot of ideas of what "massively" means, but primarily I want to SEE other people in the game world and not have the ENTIRE world instanced. And 16 people in coop play all the time (or even 40, for that matter)....is NOT massive.
4- LAND MASS
Opportunities for exploration of a vast (or vast FEELING) world.
5- Challenges and things to CONQUER
I'm just going to throw all combat, crafting, and story relating adventure in here. Notice I did not say "quests," because the status quo of well....actually....most of what I list here....isn't a requirement for me. I just believe there needs to be some FORM of these things for the game, imo, to be an MMORPG.
And that's pretty much it. I don't think MMORPGs need to be done "the way they've always been done." I would love to see innovation in all areas. But there are certain things that define the genre, that imo....must appear in SOME FORM for the game to fit the genre called "MMORPG," rather than the assorted other sub-genres that exist under the name "MMO." I think a game could still have the five things I've listed above....and look and play ENTIRELY differently than what we have in today's MMORPGs (and other MMOs).
As for the nature of "pleasing everyone"? TED Talk:Malcom Gladwell on Spaghetti Sauce. Yes, it's actually about spaghetti sauce. But it answers the concept of "pleasing everyone" far better than I could.
Very interesting video. Thanks for the link.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
Lastly, how can we innovate? Well it's the "while staying true to what MMORPGs are" undertone of your question which is exactly why we have hundreds of WOW clones. When you drop any sense of what a game "should be", you're free to make something wholly innovative.
MMORPGers manufacture their own dissatisfaction when they simultaneously demand Innovation while demanding a game adheres to a specific pre-defined list of features. Pulling on both ends of the rope, essentially.
This is a manufactured conclusion.
As an engineer, you are met with certain stipulations, criteria that you are forced to accept, and work around.
Some of the most innovative things I've seen come from when you must work with something that is imposed, and find a solution that might at first glance be impossible. One is forced to think outside the box in these situations.
It's not pulling both ends of the rope, as the situation- any situation for that matter- is not figuratively 2D.
That is exactly right, and we're not saying NO to save WoW, because it is already a lost cause. We are saying NO to dissuade the next group of greedy suits who decide to emulate Blizzard and Cryptic, etc. We can prevent some of the future games from spewing this crap, but the sooner we start saying no, the better the results will be. So - Stand up, pull up your pants, and walk away. - MMO_Doubter
As for the nature of "pleasing everyone"? TED Talk:Malcom Gladwell on Spaghetti Sauce. Yes, it's actually about spaghetti sauce. But it answers the concept of "pleasing everyone" far better than I could.
Very interesting video. Thanks for the link.
So you don't have to jump through the Facebook link....here is the direct link to the above mentioned video:
Outstanding video....wow. Now if there was just a developer that actually had enough financial backing and independent finances to follow the spaghetti sauce revelation.....
OH WAIT! There is ONE developer/publishing house I can think of that could DO that.....
But do you think they ever will?
And this is also why I have often said, that there needs to BE WoW, and EVE, and EQ2, and LotRO, and AoC, and Darkfall, and Aion, and DAoC, and GW, and GW2, and TSW, etc., etc. ad infinitum, BECAUSE.....
WE ARE ALL DIFFERENT. And there is absolutely not a damn thing wrong with me not liking the same kind of game that someone who plays another game likes. I am NOT them. I am ME....and they....are them. And when you try to make everyone happy with ONE product....that will eventually (if not immediately) cease to work.
That whole video....oddly enough, on spaghetti sauce....is entirely applicable to ANY product. But...it takes more effort and research to make 36 kinds of spaghetti sauce than just one. Yet....the rewards for both the customer AND the spaghetti sauce company....would be well worth it.
HEY DEVS! I WANT CHUNKY VEGGIE MMORPG....PLEASE DON'T MAKE ME SETTLE FOR MEATSAUCE! I know meatsauce is very popular, but....I want and need my veggies. Thank you.
I think they just need to make a true virtual world that is NOT FFA PVP and the players will come because it is different and interesting, and not too scary (because every single FFA PvP MMO does FFA wrong.)
Fast/instant travel is GOOD if used appropriately, especially if it allows players to depend on other players (specialized) for such travel options.
Instancing is good if used sparingly and only for "epic" encounters. What WoW really did wrong was make the "epic" encounters in dungeons and raids common place every day garbage, which made the rest of the open world worthless and merely a lobby for players to hang out in before getting together for "teh epic" dungeons and raids.
Keep all/most of the day to day every day (even group and raid) content in the open world, but have instances for the really "epic" story encounter type of stuff and you can retain immersion and community without any of the problems of camping/kill stealing etc.
You are't suppose to instance run with PUGs or your guild/raid your entire time spent in a MMORPG. These are suppose to be"epic" and interesting encounters, not farmed content.
You're suppose to spend lots more time outside of instances then in them. WoW got this RIGHT in Vanilla, and very very wrong in TBC and especially WotLK.
It's not that these systems or ideas are bad ideas or bad systems, they have just been designed and implemented in ways that have not been good for the massively multiplayer online role playing part of MMORPGs.
I agreee completely.. I think this (and the dungeon finder AKA community destroyer) is what drove me away from WoW in the end.. in EQ1 the world was (and is) just huge and it actually mattered a lot of the time.
Lastly, how can we innovate? Well it's the "while staying true to what MMORPGs are" undertone of your question which is exactly why we have hundreds of WOW clones. When you drop any sense of what a game "should be", you're free to make something wholly innovative.
MMORPGers manufacture their own dissatisfaction when they simultaneously demand Innovation while demanding a game adheres to a specific pre-defined list of features. Pulling on both ends of the rope, essentially.
Great post there....even the stuff I clipped to save space.
The only "demands" I have for an MMORPG is that it stays true to the genre in a VERY few ways....simply the most basic things of what make it an MMORPG (note...mmoRPG, not MMOG, not MMOFPS, not MOG, all those things are sub-genres and I want THEM to exist too for the gamers that enjoy them, but MMORPGs are what I enjoy most).
The few core things, for me, that make an MMORPG an MMORPG are:
1- Some sort of character development mechanics
This does NOT require, or mean, "leveling," imo...but I need to be developing a character in some way. To me, that is part of what makes it a "role playing game." My character is part of the story of some virtual world, and has...a personality, skills, things they "own" in the world, etc. that come from the process of their character developing over the course of some time. Same here.. I would love a mmo that focuses on character development through what you've accomplished, not by what you own.. Don't get me wrong here, I love the aspects of what games like EQ2 have done with displaying "trophies" on the wall, or paintings.. But these aren't must have items to advance in the game, they are toys.. What I'm refering to is the chase for uber gear.. I hate that mechanic of game design.
2- Some set of social tools
I don't care what they ARE, particularly, but there must be a way of communicating with, forming groups or alliances with others, such as guilds, etc. And I want these social tools to allow for long term online friendships to be built...in oher words...cross server grouping that doesn't allow for continued contact with people...imo...is not a good thing. Agreed.. I love a social structure.. What about multiple structures or alliances.. I had envisioned a military structure.. Let me explain.. Lets say you and your friends start a guild, which in my game we'll call "squadron".. This means you have squadron chat, and bank, just like most games.. BUT here's a twist.. Why not extend that.. Multiple squadrons (aka guilds) can come together and make an "Army" alliance.. Here you'll have more "Army" chat channel, and storage as well.. This would be a formal alliance of multiple guilds.. Trust me, when I say I worked out the details so abuse is minimalized..
3- MASSIVELY multi-player
I know there are a lot of ideas of what "massively" means, but primarily I want to SEE other people in the game world and not have the ENTIRE world instanced. And 16 people in coop play all the time (or even 40, for that matter)....is NOT massive. Instancing in my game is minimized and not neccessary.. In fact I actually promote that 90% of ALL so called boss encounters are open world events.. I believe that instancing and open world can live together.. I had envisioned a character having 3 options in career advancement.. Take your pick.. Don't feel like questing today? Fine.. do this.. or do that instead.. The more options available the less bordom that sets in..
4- LAND MASS
Opportunities for exploration of a vast (or vast FEELING) world. uh huh.. I love a wide open exploration map.. SWG was great.. WoW wasnt' so bad either, same with LoTRO and EQ2.. I just hate game worlds like Star Trek Online tho..
5- Challenges and things to CONQUER
I'm just going to throw all combat, crafting, and story relating adventure in here. Notice I did not say "quests," because the status quo of well....actually....most of what I list here....isn't a requirement for me. I just believe there needs to be some FORM of these things for the game, imo, to be an MMORPG. In depth player economy? What about a ever changing global enviroment and lore.. Rotating factions? Who you might be friends with this month might not be next month.. MMO games should evolve just like characters.. A person playing the game today, starts off in a different world then one that starts next month.. etc etc.. This is called PvE sandboxing.. BTW... PvP is in my dream world too.. CONTESTED PvP that persistent.. Why fight for something if it doesn't matter? btw.. PvP inmy dream world is consentual..
And that's pretty much it. I don't think MMORPGs need to be done "the way they've always been done." I would love to see innovation in all areas. But there are certain things that define the genre, that imo....must appear in SOME FORM for the game to fit the genre called "MMORPG," rather than the assorted other sub-genres that exist under the name "MMO." I think a game could still have the five things I've listed above....and look and play ENTIRELY differently than what we have in today's MMORPGs (and other MMOs). We should talk more.. lol How about barfights? ie. You're in town resupplying and decide to take a trip over to the Enlisted Club to gamble some game credits on mini games.. While you're in there a fellow player becomes tipsy.. to the point.. that an automatic duel flag raised.. This means that anyone can "barfight" him without weapons.. Grab bottles or furniture and have at it.. But if you jump in, then you are flagged as well.. Last man standing gets a special reward.. OH..The more in the barfight the better the reward.. Did I mention that once the bar fight starts, you have a limited time to win, or the MP's take you away, and you must pay a fine to get out of jail.. LOL Quirky things like that..
Comments
why are you guys not playing indie games instead of complaining how evil Blizzard is? its not as if there are not enough games which are sandbox and nothing like WOW. is this the best reponse you can come up with? its a valid question why not answer it?
You can't force players to play the way you designed the game to play.
They will always find ways to do something you didn't expect or plan for. At best they'll create new and interesting uses for systems and rules you put into the game. At worse they'll exploit and cheat your systems.
The problem in recent years is that players aren't asking the hard questions anymore, and as such the devs are not coming up with good and innovative answers.
We are simply feeding on the hype the devs are pouring on us. We ask stupid questions about high-concept design features, and we write novels full of useless diatribes ranting and raving about which systems are better and why.. but we NEVER ask the nitty-gritty every day game play questions, and the devs never give us straight answers.
It's all about implementation and the rules - the down and dirty x=y rules that make or break a system.
It doesn't matter how good it sounds on paper and how much hype we can spin for it, it doesn't matter if we write an eleven page forum post detailed why we THINK system A is better then system B because back in the day we walked uphill both ways in the snow and...
It's about what X equals. What Y equals.
We never know that stuff before a game comes out, most of the time even in Beta we have no clue.
There will be still some smaller studios that will focus on minor market so that they do not have to compete directly with mainstream titles, something difficult to do with their budget.
Occasionally even some bigger studio might attempt to do something different.
Honestly, and why I see it quite a problem for games developed for minor market, why should anyone risk their money to make a game for something so difficult to define as gaming minority is?
There are unlimited ways how to make a game different from mainstream but what is your target audience, what they want and how large it is, is something so difficult to estimate because anything differing from mainstream is extremely heterogeneous.
The point remains -
There are more indie sandbox FFA PvP type games on the market now then EVER before.
There are also more "featured" guided-content MMOs on the market now then ever before.
It's either the ones we have are no good, we are burnt out/tired of them, or we are just so picky nothing will ever please us because it isn't "perfect."
I know I am a solid mix between "burnt out" after all these years and "so picky nothing will ever please me" because I am getting older and just don't take the time for mediocre games anymore.
It wasn't me bringing the maturity question to the light here.
I just commented on how immature it is to cry about games not 'maturing and in need of cataclysm' instead of accepting the fact the MMO market is changing and responding to the player base that is also changing.
Taking things out of context makes no good for reading comprehension.
The part in yellow above is interesting. What you describe is not happening with current tech I don't think. Asking for a game that doesn't copy or mimic any present day MMO is like asking an FPS not to have a 1st person perspective or a platformer to not be based around jumping puzzles. Its a MMO. Its going to share some basic similarities with other games in the genre. In order to fit in the genre is has to share something with other games within it. What you're really asking for is when MMOs go VR and become something else. Only then will completely new rules apply. You want the same feeling as when you 1st experienced UO or EQ or whatever your 1st MMO was, when there was NOTHING else like it. Well, you're going to waiting a long time. You want that unexplored feeling and no MMO is really going to offer that unless its barely a MMO. You want an ideal. We all want an ideal, but we all have to compromise as well.
What MOST people want is something new, yet familiar. It needs to feel fresh, but they need to "get it" fairly quickly. If its too radical and different, its just not appealing. For me, that was WOW back in 2004. Whatever the next MMO that interests me, it'll need to deliver what Blizzard did back then. NEW, yet familiar. Different, but not so radical that its uninteresting. A virtual world won't be it unless someone can make one with actual content thats NOT designed by its players, something I've yet to see. I won't play a "game" that just mimics real life and expects me to do the same things I do every day. Whats the point in that?
But, I wish you luck finding that magical game again.
The inability to put your thoughts into writing really just slows down the conversation, especially on an internet forum.
"...makes no good for reading comprehension." Thanks, but I'll take advice from someone else.
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
I'm waiting for the game that doesn't have an "END GAME".. I want a game that offers alot more then hack and slash.. Where is my player housing and guild hall in which to socialize in and enjoy? Where are the games with a true player economy? Where is that game with the ever changing world? Where is that game that allows me to enjoy PvP and PvE equaly depending on my mood for the day? Maybe some of us as the article implies want more then a spoon fed diet from Gerbers, and I see more and more of this on the net in the past year or two.. Even websites like "WCO" with their podcast, are starting to turn on Blizzard.. They question themselves and Blizzard quite often of late.. "IS THIS ALL THERE IS?".. Especially their latest podcast #52 I think it is..
YES! This ^^^^^^^ !
President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club
Do you have a link for that?
Anyway, one big problem is that the more parameters WRT game features that are considered, the smaller the niche becomes.
I want a PvP focused game. Okay, lots of people do. Not too small a niche.
I refuse to play if there is a cash shop (even if it's only 'fluff' items). That narrows it down a bit.
I want third person viewpoint, not first person. Just lost some folks with that one.
And so it goes.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
At least this thread got one person to rage quit mmorpg.
.
Why are all of our posts in this topic getting deleted?
.
Where is the love?
Well shave my back and call me an elf! -- Oghren
I can't take it anymore, I tell ya! I have to ask.
What is with the damn dots?
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
MMO Doubter . if you are asking for the link to WCO.. I'm too lazy at this time.. LOL The website podcast is "Warcraft Outsiders".. very informative trio of adults.. I've haven't followed them long, but did check a few of their most recent podcast and have notice a trend of "bordom".. The tone of the podcast is in the middle.. They are looking forward to new things being brought into the game.. but in the same breath you can tell they are tired of the raid emblem grind..
http://warcraftoutsiders.com/
OK .. I broke down and caved in.. here you go.. LOL
ROFL....*cough* wuss *cough*
You're so predictable...I knew you'd cave. teehee
President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club
Thanks, bud.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
Well I skipped the Farmville bit because it's such a tiny part of the whole article. Personally I don't feel threatened by Farmville in the slightest.
Think about it. EVE survives as a niche game relative to the entire hardcore market. The entire hardcore market is niche relative to the casual games market, yet it's many times larger than EVE and will continue to survive in the same way.
Honestly I feel casual games are the "gateway drug" to hardcore games. Sure, some will be fine with "farmvilles" forever. But the ones that discover gaming as a real hobby will start to seek out higher quality games.
How can games be deep yet accessible? Well that's the core of Good Game Design, and a simple answer wouldn't really answer the question sufficiently.
As for the nature of "pleasing everyone"? TED Talk: Malcom Gladwell on Spaghetti Sauce. Yes, it's actually about spaghetti sauce. But it answers the concept of "pleasing everyone" far better than I could.
Still, if you don't want to spend 17:33, the basic gist is that:
You can't please everyone with a single product.
It doesn't matter.
Provide each niche with the product it wants, and you'll enjoy success.
Lastly, how can we innovate? Well it's the "while staying true to what MMORPGs are" undertone of your question which is exactly why we have hundreds of WOW clones. When you drop any sense of what a game "should be", you're free to make something wholly innovative.
MMORPGers manufacture their own dissatisfaction when they simultaneously demand Innovation while demanding a game adheres to a specific pre-defined list of features. Pulling on both ends of the rope, essentially.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Good tip, imho.
The #1 thing that is holding the sandbox / virtual world subgenre of MMOs back is the insistence that sandbox = FFA PvP.
Make a sandbox MMO with an town/city/empire-building "endgame" that cribs liberally from games like SimCity, apply the standards of polish that people expect in the post-WoW world, and we'll see whether sandboxes have to be niche games or not.
I've been working on that for almost 2 years now as a hobby.. I"ve designed a sandbox game that has no end game, meaning it does not focus on a "end raid" target like games similar to WoW or the like.. Too many sandbox games currently and in years past seemed to focus on FFA PvP play.. IMO, that is very small niched. My game was designed for PvE play, with PvP elements. Both game styles can co-exist in a virtual world.. Problem is, and I'll admit to it, is that a game such as the one I've toyed with for 2 years will take a solid 5 years of dev time, and some cash.. A solid PvE sandbox as I envision will not only take years to complete start to finish, but will require regular changes after it's launched..
Fact is.. I fear what I want, and it appears what many of others want is just not appealling to the corporate decision makers.. Today's MMO market is all about ROI (return on investment).. How fast can we recover our investment with minimal cost.. Nothing else matters.. We see more and more titles released early, unfinished, cash shops popping up like dandilions.. Show me the money!.. lol
But we can dream
Great post there....even the stuff I clipped to save space.
The only "demands" I have for an MMORPG is that it stays true to the genre in a VERY few ways....simply the most basic things of what make it an MMORPG (note...mmoRPG, not MMOG, not MMOFPS, not MOG, all those things are sub-genres and I want THEM to exist too for the gamers that enjoy them, but MMORPGs are what I enjoy most).
The few core things, for me, that make an MMORPG an MMORPG are:
1- Some sort of character development mechanics
This does NOT require, or mean, "leveling," imo...but I need to be developing a character in some way. To me, that is part of what makes it a "role playing game." My character is part of the story of some virtual world, and has...a personality, skills, things they "own" in the world, etc. that come from the process of their character developing over the course of some time.
2- Some set of social tools
I don't care what they ARE, particularly, but there must be a way of communicating with, forming groups or alliances with others, such as guilds, etc. And I want these social tools to allow for long term online friendships to be built...in oher words...cross server grouping that doesn't allow for continued contact with people...imo...is not a good thing.
3- MASSIVELY multi-player
I know there are a lot of ideas of what "massively" means, but primarily I want to SEE other people in the game world and not have the ENTIRE world instanced. And 16 people in coop play all the time (or even 40, for that matter)....is NOT massive.
4- LAND MASS
Opportunities for exploration of a vast (or vast FEELING) world.
5- Challenges and things to CONQUER
I'm just going to throw all combat, crafting, and story relating adventure in here. Notice I did not say "quests," because the status quo of well....actually....most of what I list here....isn't a requirement for me. I just believe there needs to be some FORM of these things for the game, imo, to be an MMORPG.
And that's pretty much it. I don't think MMORPGs need to be done "the way they've always been done." I would love to see innovation in all areas. But there are certain things that define the genre, that imo....must appear in SOME FORM for the game to fit the genre called "MMORPG," rather than the assorted other sub-genres that exist under the name "MMO." I think a game could still have the five things I've listed above....and look and play ENTIRELY differently than what we have in today's MMORPGs (and other MMOs).
President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
This is a manufactured conclusion.
As an engineer, you are met with certain stipulations, criteria that you are forced to accept, and work around.
Some of the most innovative things I've seen come from when you must work with something that is imposed, and find a solution that might at first glance be impossible. One is forced to think outside the box in these situations.
It's not pulling both ends of the rope, as the situation- any situation for that matter- is not figuratively 2D.
That is exactly right, and we're not saying NO to save WoW, because it is already a lost cause. We are saying NO to dissuade the next group of greedy suits who decide to emulate Blizzard and Cryptic, etc.
We can prevent some of the future games from spewing this crap, but the sooner we start saying no, the better the results will be.
So - Stand up, pull up your pants, and walk away.
- MMO_Doubter
My faith in thise genre is completely gone.
I play one game and will continue to play one game until it ceases to exist.
EvE Online is the only true mmo left in this market filled with complete dog shit.
Playing: Rift, LotRO
Waiting on: GW2, BP
So you don't have to jump through the Facebook link....here is the direct link to the above mentioned video:
http://www.ted.com/talks/malcolm_gladwell_on_spaghetti_sauce.html
Outstanding video....wow. Now if there was just a developer that actually had enough financial backing and independent finances to follow the spaghetti sauce revelation.....
OH WAIT! There is ONE developer/publishing house I can think of that could DO that.....
But do you think they ever will?
And this is also why I have often said, that there needs to BE WoW, and EVE, and EQ2, and LotRO, and AoC, and Darkfall, and Aion, and DAoC, and GW, and GW2, and TSW, etc., etc. ad infinitum, BECAUSE.....
WE ARE ALL DIFFERENT. And there is absolutely not a damn thing wrong with me not liking the same kind of game that someone who plays another game likes. I am NOT them. I am ME....and they....are them. And when you try to make everyone happy with ONE product....that will eventually (if not immediately) cease to work.
That whole video....oddly enough, on spaghetti sauce....is entirely applicable to ANY product. But...it takes more effort and research to make 36 kinds of spaghetti sauce than just one. Yet....the rewards for both the customer AND the spaghetti sauce company....would be well worth it.
HEY DEVS! I WANT CHUNKY VEGGIE MMORPG....PLEASE DON'T MAKE ME SETTLE FOR MEATSAUCE! I know meatsauce is very popular, but....I want and need my veggies. Thank you.
President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club