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The fear of F2P
shazugin
Member UncommonPosts: 70
Seriously, why are people so afraid of the F2P model? It use to be that if you played a F2P game it was runescape or some lame asian cash shop game. People who say they will not play a F2P game in 2010 are just stuck on F2P games of 2005. F2P games these days are comparable to P2P games if not better.
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Comments
I agree completely there are alot of good F2P games anymore some are very nice some are just decent but at least they arent trash anymore. The people with alot of money that pay in the cash shop just to have a semi-unique color or hairstyle pay for it for us and i thank them very much
To list a few of the games i think are good (and totally F2P):
9Dragons
Runes of Magic
Allods
..........well there are alot anyway........i just wish there were one like Tabula Rasa, or even better that they would re-start Tabula Rasa as a cash shop game. I do miss playing it so.
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
Final Fantasy 7
Because in a f2p peoples buy stuff instead of earning them ingame by playing. After all the game is exactly that, the process toward the items, levels. That's where the concurrence is. Cash shop totally destroy the process thus destroying the game. Cash shop it's like a hack allowed from the developers.
I mean is that so hard to understand?
The reason is because not its free to play.
It's because its deceiving when it really means: "pay to win."
-Azure Prower
http://www.youtube.com/AzurePrower
The fear...
I wouldn't call it fear. It's just that F2P are second rate games. Some serious gamers don't even look at F2Ps direction, because they know it's not for them.
If you think the game is not worth $15 a month, means you don't like it enough.
If you are playing a F2P and not paying for any stuff in item shop, you're not serious about that game. But if you're buying items in a shop, wouldn't you rather pay $15, play a higher quality game and earn those items like everyone else? It's simple really.
I'd even go that far and say that everyone, spending money in a F2P games are.. well, dumb. Sorry, just my opinion.
Because people fear they aren't getting a quality game since it is f2p and some do not like microtransactions. I don't mind f2p but I hate it when developers use f2p after the fact just to squeeze more money out of people because their game failed in the first place.
Ignorance is Bliss......
To call people "dumb", due to ignorance, is hilarious to say the least.
What's "dumb" is making a statment like:"If you are playing a F2P and not paying for any stuff in item shop, you're not serious about that game."
How could you possibly know that? Do you know what Games I play? P2P, F2P or ANY others for that matter?
No!
The fear comes from that some people still think that F2P=Korean grinder with a gamebreaking cash shop.
We now see more and more western companies addig F2P option to their MMOs that is adapted to the market here. A few years from now most MMOs will have a F2P option or they wont make it. And theese new hybrid models are great for us players.
If WoW = The Beatles
and WAR = Led Zeppelin
Then LotrO = Pink Floyd
there is alot of f2p rubbish out there and its hard for f2p to compete with the likes of aion and world of warcraft. but there is defiantly qaulity free games like 4 story with awesome graphics and storyline. I dont like games which act like they are free but actually you need to spend alot of money to succeed.
Who like to buy progress instead of earning it ingame.
For me, it's because I know that for a "F2P" game to be profitable, it will need to be designed in such a way as to strongly promote players into paying. Due to this, there is much content and/or convenience mechanics made only available to those willing to pay for them. Additionally, there is an assumption that even despite this, that many players will still spend very little or nothing, it's designed in a such a way that those who wish to get a "full" game experience have to spend cosniderably more than $15 a month, so it does not coem cheap to actually invest into the game.
And of course as mentioned before, many such item shops sell items that give significant advantages to those willing to spend ridiculous amounts of cash, with no ingame effort involved.
I'd much prefer to just pay my $15 a month to a purely P2P based MMO, and actually progress my character by playing the game to advance on an even playing field.
There's a difference between "fear" and "conditioned response". F2P games, in the past, seem to be more about quantity then quality. I mean, it seemed like every week there was another F2P/cash shop coming out and that they were fairly indistinguishable.
Now, you have games like DDO, and likely LoTRO, which might start to change the perception of quality in F2P titles, but there is still a stigma, built on historic perception, that they model has to contend with. DDO/LoTRO circumvent this in some respects given their P2P past.
-mklinic
"Do something right, no one remembers.
Do something wrong, no one forgets"
-from No One Remembers by In Strict Confidence
Well...
With LOTRO entering the F2P, or Hybrid/F2P arena (I don't think any of them are truly F2P), I think the whole "second rate Game" argument is forever thrown out the window...LOTRO is a 1st Rate (PvE anyway) MMORPG in every way...So we'll see what all this means at this time next year...If LOTRO's profits skyrocket like DDO's did, every MMO Production House (ouside of Activision/Blizzard with WOW of coarse) is going to have some thinking to do...
Good luck using reason on the panic driven sheep. People hate change. F2P represent change. P2P are no longer profitable. I mean, subs are lower now (on average of $15 a month) then when the genre first got going in the late 90s (I recall paying about $20 a month), and yet the economy is far worse. No one dares alter the sub model, because players would not be willing to pay more.
As a player with very little time to grind anymore, I appreciate Pay for Convenience games. I don't support Pay to Win games, and a little research will help you figure out which ones are which. Sometimes, in the winter especially, I have time to grind to get things. Most times, I don't. And I'm not alone. There are a lot of older games with jobs and families who just don't have the time they used to to play games. That's where Pay for Convenience comes in.
And you are right, most expect the low quality asian grinder games when they hear the term. I think most of the vehemence comes from teenagers with no income, yet have a sense of entitlement. "I want access to everything that person has access to, but I don't want to pay." Please, try that at a restaurant sometime, see what happens. So, while the rest of you gnash your teeth and apply your zit cream, I'm going to spend my 10-20 dollars a month on my Convenience games. I mean shit, I spend more then that a month on coffee.
It's because the games want the hardcore players to use the item shop a lot, and drop much more money than a standard sub. To do that they design the gameplay to reflect that: they make insane grinds and sell double xp potions, or make you die a lot and then penalize you if you didn't use this item found easily in the cash shop but rarely in gameplay.
Turbine is trying to change that, but eventually they will hit a cap where the f2p aspect will stop driving new subs. To deal with that they are going to need to force more use of consumable items, and they'll design play around it.
I definitely have to agree here. I think that it will be very telling in the near future. I love DDO and have since it began, Even though I have the money to cash shop it up in these f2p games I tend to not. I hate losing as much as the next guy, but I hate winning just because I bought an advantage with my wallet, and nobody ever finds out who is actually the better player.
Well, for starters, asking why people "fear" F2P is kinda silly. I don't think anyone's "afraid" of a game, or of its payment model. You're also not the first to attempt to put that kind of spin on it.
As for why people don't like F2P? Well, that's been discussed time and again, for months now, with a variety of reasons given... People don't agree with the payment model on principle, they find P2P MMOs to be of lesser quality overall than a typical P2P MMO, etc. The reasons are well-discussed and well-represented.
My take, in particular, is that I believe all content in a game should be obtainable by playing the game, whether it be fluff or otherwise. If there's an item - even if it's only "fluff" to some - that I feel I would like, I want to be able to obtain that item by playing the game. I should have to complete a quest line, or find and defeat a rare and difficult creature, or by crafting it.... by doing something actually related to *playing the game*; not pulling out my credit card. Cash Shops undermine the point of playing a game for me. This goes for any type of content in the game, in any context.
I also have an issue with the dishonest nature of how F2P MMOs are marketed. They *love* to say "you can play for free forever!". Its stronger proponents love to insist you can play the entire game without spending a dime. Well, fine. Back that up.
Show me a player who, without ever spending a dime themself on the cash shop:
- is at level cap.
- is regularly and actively engaged in the toughest PvE content, such as raids, etc (if they enjoy PvE) at that level
- is actively engaged and competitive in PvP (if they enjoy PvP) at that level
- Is decked out in the best gear to be had at that level
- can stand toe-to-toe and stat-for-stat with other players at that level
- is achieving the above at the same level as those who do use the cash shop
- is doing so with the same consistency and frequency as those who do use the cash shop
- is doing so without having to spend a substantial number of hours grinding for what they need to play at that level
For all the times I've read "you can play the entire game without spending a dime!", I've yet to see a single player who could step forward and satisfy any number of those conditions without using the cash shop to do so. Why? Because you can't. Because the game isn't designed that way. Because the games are designed specifically *to* funnel people toward the cash shops to "make progression easier" or less cumbersome, *especially* at the higher end.
With subscription-based games, I don't have to worry about that. I pay the same sub as everyone else, I have the same access to the same content as everyone else, with the same requirements to acquire or experience it as everyone else. For me, it's merely a matter of making the choice to reach a certain goal, and then progressing toward it... by *playing the game*. Some will argue "yeah, but then it takes too much time". What's "too much time"? I'm playing a game I enjoy and I enjoy "the journey" as much as I do reaching "the destination", whatever that may be. I don't "need" to have whatever I want "now" in order to be entertained. Apparently, many others do.
As a further example of why I don't like F2P... During a panel hosted by mmorpg.com, which there are videos of posted on this site, it's stated unequivicolly by one of the panelists - an individual working in the industry - that microtransactions (ie. item shops) allow developers to monetize players for more than the $15 they would get for a monthly subscription. That's the reality right there. That's why companies *really* go for the F2P/Microtransaction model. It's not because "they want people to play for free". Quite the opposite. It's because they know they can design the game in such a way that people will spend far more on a cash shop than they ever would on a monthly sub to continue playing. Yet, all the while, they're putting out their ads and banners with the words "Free To Play!" on them.
Sorry... but the word "free!" isn't going to blind me to the reality of how those games are designed and operated. I'm simply not that naive or gullible.
For me, no it's not "fear of F2P". It's because I prefer the games I play to be *games*... not virtual online malls. I prefer to earn or obtain what I want in a game by *playing* it... Not by stopping and wondering "Hmm.. do I have enough to get what I need, or do I need to purchase more credits for the cash shop?"
To address one of your statements in particular...
People who say they will not play a F2P game in 2010 are just stuck on F2P games of 2005.
That's a ridiculous and disingenuous assertion to make, considering people are finding the same flaws in F2P MMOs released just within the past year or so... Allods is just one such example. That company went insane with their Item Mall prices and caused an uproar... They only lowered them after people said "are you freaking nuts?". Allods was released in February 2010, not 2005. Regardless, what happened with Allods is indicative of what is going on with the entire F2P market... Only the extreme they took it to made it that much more obvious.
They call it "Free to Play" for pure marketing spin, because people love the word "free". Nothing more.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Game developers are like living creatures, they have to adapt the thier environment or perish. I can remember back almost 20 years ago when I played Neverwinter Nights, you paid for every hour you were online. Back then I paid about $30-40 a month. Subscriptions from that time to now have dwindled, where some games are now $5 a month. There just isn't any money in P2P anymore, unless you have "reportedly" 11.5 million subscribers. In 10 years there won't be a single P2P game, everything will be F2P, it's the only way for companies to stay alive. Adapt or die...
not all f2p and pay to win. you negate that fact played a few and assumed they all were just as such. they arew not, you my friend are one of the many with this stigma that it's all play to win,,
i mean is that so hard to understand?
a well thought out arguement, I respect you sir for such.
Well, I took it as a personal attack. Frankly, I'm happy where I am, but I stil enjoy playing the games. Don't put words in my mouth or assume you know what I'm talking about.
Exactly, that's what every decent gamer would think.
And i agree that F2P is the future model of almost all MMOs. It's just better business model for not so popular MMOs and there are enough people spending cash to support the "free to play" mechanism. I don't like it, but that's the sad truth.
Lord of the rings is a quality MMO, but obviously, it lacks something. Otherwise it wouldn't had to to go F2P.
Sure there's money in P2P. There's just "not enough money in it" for some.
Lineage 2 is still sub-based and is doing quite well, especially in its eastern market.
Final Fantasy XI is still sub-based and is SE's cash cow and has under 1 million players.
LoTRO has been P2P up to this day and was only just announced as going hybrid.
Moving forward, SE has stated that FFXIV will be sub-based. TERA Online will be sub based. Those companies, and others going with P2P could change their minds before launch, but as of now, each of them are still going with subscriptions.
... and so on.
Companies aren't moving toward microtransactions because of some failure of the subscription model. They're moving toward F2P because there's potentially more money in it. It's all about the green, nothing more.
As has always been the case, subscription-based games succeed or fail because of the game itself, not because the payment model is flawed.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Excellent points actually, thank you for clarifying. Here's what I do. When I know I have time to devote to a guild and grouping and the game in general, I sub to the game. On months where I don't have time, like the summertime, I play either Guild Wars, or a F2P. I'll admit though, the only F2P I play regularly is DDO, mainly because I respect the way their shop is set up. "I'm bored, need some new dungeons. I know, I'll drop 10 bucks, keep myself from being bored for a couple of weeks." Nice thing about DDO, and soon LOTRO, I can just sub to them if I feel I'm going to be spending enough time in game.
I know that's not how a lot of players work, but its how I work when it comes to budgeting my time and F2P. But then, I know better then to consider them free, so I don't have to worry about my sense of entitlement coming into play.
What I find most interesting about the crowd that decries the F2P market is the number one argument that is used. They say that having money IRL give an advantage to these games (which I do not dispute), while ingnoring the fact that in P2P games, those with the most time have a clear advantage. Personally, I'm fine with both formats and simply look for a game that is fun for me, be it F2P or P2P. And when the fun wears off, I move on. Too many games to play one I'm not happy with.
Also, why does Guild Wars seem to get a free pass in this debate? The cash shop there seems to give an obvious in-game advantage by selling skill sets. Is it because the game does have a box price? Correct me if I'm wrong as I've not played it.
I want a mmorpg where people have gone through misery, have gone through school stuff and actually have had sex even. -sagil
That depends on what peoples consider win. Someone consider the pvp, someone the levels or fluff items. So yeah pay to win is not only about pvp. Every item in cash shop serves to enhance the win factor. If it wasn't like that then nobody would pay for it.
A mmorpg is as much about the community as it is about the concurrence betwen players in different fields. A game should have the same rules for everyone without an interference from outside. That's what I call fair competition. While in the case of f2p is like 1 team in soccer can play with 13 players because this team paid more.