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The fear of F2P
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Or... make a good MMO?
Can't believe I never thought of that before but it's pretty obvious is it not?
And I'm not saying I'm in favor of a P2Win model whatsoever...But when is it not an advantage to have money in IRL, in anything we do? That's just the way it is...Gotta deal...
I'm sorry OP. But from my experience. I cannot compare ANY FTP to this list of games and come back with anything remotely close in quality, story, gameplay, polish and fun:
EQ2
WoW
LOTRO
Vanguard
FFXI
I'll even hesitantly add AoC and WAR to that list, only because their music and graphics crush any FTP on the market.
The only game remotely close to FTPs is Aion, and that speaks for itself.
It shouldn't be to hard to take a game like Allods or Runes of Magic and compare it to the above mentioned games to see the real difference. And there in lies your answer.
The fact of the matter is that companies are using "F2P" as a veil to sell products that are advertised as "free", but in reality, are not. We can stop to think about the difficulties of running a free game as a developer, of the different struggles and obstacles needed to overcome to achieve success or profit in a truly "free" MMO, but that's not our job as consumers. It's not our jobs to sympathize with companies stating platitudes, making excuses for why we should let them slide on charging us a dollar for a service here, or a convenience item there. It's our jobs as consumers to find the best value ratio to product quality, or we are otherwise unintelligently spending our money.
That being said, I'd like to quote something from a post from these same boards, titled "Lord of the Rings Online: Free to Play Interview":
"Looking at that chart - I'm screwed unless I pay to play. Destiny points? I have 4k...you cannot spend them unless you pay. Crafting guilds? I'm fully crafting guild playable right now - something I EARNED through an honor/crafting grind. I will be limited unless I pay. Gold?? I have 20g right now. Are they going to TAKE 18g away from me when this goes pay to play unless I pay real money to keep it? Storage bags. I have 4 bags in my vault - all full of items I've made and/or found. Do I lose them if I don't pay to play?'"
This is the truth of the matter. "Free" to play games are a method in which a developer can lock down individual pieces of their content and sell them all at a premium rate, which makes them entirely unfree to play, and is flagrantly false advertising. This alone, the fact that they are directly or indirectly lying to consumers by labeling their product a "free" game, is enough reason for me to question the integrity of any company that would seek out such a business model. It screams scam, which is why I'm not surprised that there are so many people questioning this sub-genre's validity.
I've heard excuses from the other side, such as being afraid of change, associating "F2P" with asian grinders, thinking they're all pay to win, or believing that anyone who wants a strictly subscription based model is a teenager without the money to spend on content. Personally, I'd like to go on the record claiming that these are all ridiculous, being a single adult with plenty of cash on my hands that has played, and enjoyed, asian grinders starting as far back as the original Lineage. This has nothing to do with gameplay types, or whether or not every "F2P" MMO that gets released has the same manner of cash shop, but everything to do with realizing that these games are created to push revenue, and are not created with the interest of the gamer in mind.
"This is life! We suffer and slave and expire. That's it!" -Bernard Black (Dylan Moran)
I've know plenty of Folks in MMO Gaming with time advantages...FAR less with skill advantages...
Just saying...
Why "Fear"? For me its just scam.
They claim to F2P but to achieve something i have to invest money and far more money as i would do in P2P. I played some F2P games and i was spending money for what i could easy play a year P2P. I was playing a F2P game to a point ive seen that is never ending scam. There is no point where you dont need to spend any more money. You get drained money out of your pocket all the time.
Yeah ofcourse i couldnt spend money at all, but grind my brain to death, but then i would pretty fast stop playing as grinding isnt fun for me.
So far best F2P model ive seen is DDO, but it moves aswell towards the point pay to win, like ROM is (especailly on pvp servers).
Its one point to add comfort, but completly other point when you gain ingame advantages which is for sure a killing factor to play a F2P.
Ive learned my lesson on hard way and wont forget it
Im not afraid of F2P market as there will be always a niche for P2P and there for there will be always a game which i will be able to play.
Just my 2 cents.
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Sorry for me, I won't play a F2P MMO unless all the cash shop does is unlock the higher levels forever, and items that may look different but do not affect any part of game play, and pets that don't change any part of game play, and finally they don't offer things like 2x xp for 2 hours...etc.
A game that offers items in its cash shop that rival or equal items in the game destroys the game in my opinion.
A game that offers items that give bonuses that are not available in game like 2x xp destroy the game as well.
MMO's used to be about the community and the journey through the world, level caps didn't mean much, end game was not where the game began, the game was FUN from day one. Sure it may have being repedative occasionally but honestly it was a much better system then today, again IMO. If someone could purchase a gem that gave them 2x xp for 4 hours that is like buying an Iwin button for levels. If Someone could purchase a hauberk that has better stats then 90% of what is in the game that is also an Iwin button. These are unacceptable to myself and the reason I would not play F2P games.
People who have more time to play, they just move FASTER through the content. They don't get any advantages.
Someone will always have more time and that's normal, they spend their real life time to achieve something in the game.
So i think the "having more time advantage" is a false reason to justify the cash shop.
------------------------------
Think about the single player games. "I work all day, so i don't have time to play, while my brother is jobless, so he have the time advantage. I'll just buy cheats and hacks online and be max level and have unlimited gold."
Same with MMOs. You just buy stuff (cheats) in cash shop and become even stronger than the ones who play all day.
To a certain extent I agree...A business is a business...Profits are King...No question about it...
But these are MMO's and there is not a Producer on Earth that does not know the risk of drastic change...The Book has been written...It's name is Star Wars Galaxies...And the lesson was quite clear...Screw the Subscriber and they will vote with their feet...They'll walk...So while I agree F2P is a Model designed for higher revenues, I don't think it's necessarily done without the best interest of Gamers in mind...I think it's done to attract revenue from those who, for whatever reason, won't subscribe...To attract the FAR more casual Gamer...To add revenue from areas that were unattainable under the current subscription Plan...
I really don't think F2P or Hybrid F2P = screw the Gamer...I think it can, but in cases like LOTRO I don't think it will at all...Turbine has always kept the LOTRO Fan in mind...I don't see that changing with this change in Pay Plan...But I guess we'll see soon enough...
Fear might be too strong of a term. I dislike the fact that frequently in F2P games developers design the gameplay mechanics to encourage cash shop use at the expense of creating a more enjoyable MMORPG experience.
And then there's the concern that so far I've yet to see a F2P game where it isn't quite easy to find things in the cash shop worth purchasing that takes the monthly cost above the typical 15 dollars per account that I usually spend.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
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Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
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"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Then make everything in the cash shop free to paying players.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
I bolded the bit I'm going to respond to, while I did read and enjoy the rest of your post. My problem with your statement is this: everything I've seen regarding the LOTRO "F2P" move states that the same luxuries and details I would expect any game to naturally come with are going to be sectioned and closed off without paying, and for some of them, almost from the beginning. The best example I can use are the storeage slots and cash cap limit that have been presented. These are two functions I expect to be free with any game, especially one claiming to be "free to play", and is a perfect demonstration of why I think the "F2P" sub-genre is a giant scam. It's a payment model that works better for developers than consumers.
"This is life! We suffer and slave and expire. That's it!" -Bernard Black (Dylan Moran)
Have yet to find a single F2P micro payment game that hasn't devolved into "must buy xxx potion" or gives out best in-game items for cash.
The best way, in my opinion, is a Hybrid way, costing xx a month with a cash shop that gives out 100% purely cosmetic items and XP potions at most. EQ has weapon augs that make weapons look awesome. Pets, mounts, gear graphics, while still being able to get EVERYTHING with in-game currency or gaining it through dungeons/etc. Nothing else or it completely ruins the game, at least for me.
Very nice analogies....except none of them have a monthly fee to play. Let me try something here to see if what is rattling around in my head works on paper:
Lets say you and I decide to play Game of Games (fictional title I hope). This game costs 50$ to buy and 15$ a month to play. There are several goals that we have set in the game and we both have a good idea how many hours it will take to reach the main goal of having a fully geared character in the "end game". Lets say that the time frame is roughly 100 hours of playtime (not factoring in bad RNG along the way). After that goal is reached, there are a few secondary goals as well. You play for 4 hours a day, 6 days a week. I play for 2 hours a day, 4 days a week.
At the end of the first 15$ period, you have put in 96 hours and I've put in 24. At the end of the second 15$ period, you have logged 192 hours; meanwhile, I'm at 48 hours. This means that you have reached the main goal and moved on to the other secondary goals. At this point you decide to stop playing for a while and try something new. I keep playing.....and paying. 3rd month - 72 hours. 4th month - 96 hours. 5th month - 120 hours.
You - 50+30 = 80$. Me - 50+75 = 125$. To reach the first goal, I've spent more money. To see all of the same content, I would have to spend even more.
Granted, all of these numbers are hypothetical, but I think it does show how P2P games can be unbalanced by real life.
Also, this is not a whine post about unfairness. Like I said earlier, I play both models and find that each has it's place.
Now if I could just get my head to stop rattling.
I want a mmorpg where people have gone through misery, have gone through school stuff and actually have had sex even. -sagil
With free trials, P2P = F2P + PAY to get more playing time and more content. So the moral high ground P2P supporters claim just isn't there anymore.
If I don't pay a cent, how much content is accessible to me and how long I'm allowed to play. That's what I and most other casual players are looking at. For this reason F2P will always have an upper hand.
As for quality in game, if I never taste it, I never miss it.
Pay-to-win? P2P sells expansions that raise level cap and introduce new areas not accessible to subscribers who don't buy. At least in F2P all expansions & new updates are free to everyone.
Some items in F2P cash shop can have high price, but that only affects those "high-end" players. Do Ferrari & Lamboghini's prices bother average car owners? Not a bit.
Lol It's better a P2P with Cash shop like blizzard..
“Name Change” for 10$, “Character Re-Customization” for 15$, the “Character Transfer” for 25$, “Faction Change” for 30$, Blizzard Mobile is getting made for phone sounds , a mount for 25$, several pets, additional protection with the Blizzard Authenticator, so you’ll be safer against hackers for 6.50$ instead of for free or the latest, an Internet interface for the World of Warcraft AH called the “Remote Auction House” as a “Subscription-based service” for cash (2.99$/month).
( It's from http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=128252 )
And Btw,most of these things are what they sell in F2P mmo cash shop.
So much of this is wrong. I'm sorry if this sounds condescending.
You cannot relate a trial for a P2P game to a F2P service. That trial exists to show you a portion of content that you already know costs money, and you are accepting a slightly closed off experience at the benefit of knowing whether or not a particular title is worth a final transaction. These trials do not come to players under the guise of entirely free content, riddled with cashshops, so I don't understand how you're able to make any relation between the two without seriously stretching your argument.
The fact of the matter is that you may be right about the extremist casual, the player who doesn't care about a competitive edge, or doesn't have a problem being on the eternally winning end of a community's populace. Players who are looking for these edges, or to be within the upper eschelon, are usually nickeled and dimed for every little advantage or bonus, all of which would come provided in a game that is subscription based, and thusly provide a level playing field for anyone with the time available.
Do some research and find out what's out there, otherwise you're allowing these companies to walk all over you, and continue to produce titles that are neither innovative or well designed. The reason this particular statement bothers me is for a simple reason: the more sub-standard bullshit people are willing to pay for, the more willing these developers and studios are to produce sub-standard bullshit. No creativity. No innovation. No freedom.
[Mod Edit]
"This is life! We suffer and slave and expire. That's it!" -Bernard Black (Dylan Moran)
Now now some of them are fairly decent, and i do think alot of them would be worth monthly subs its just i cant afford to pay for every game i want to play ........i bet you have a nice income thats stable right? (no offense incase it is somehow implied in a way i dont intend,ive already lost some of my forum rank for someone mistakeing me for trolling) but i dont have that luxery i have limited money but still want to play good games online.
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
Final Fantasy 7
well said
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
Final Fantasy 7
Turbine is doing it right, though most other companies are too greedy not to mess it up.
F2P is ok as long as you have a CEILING. I.E. you can pay the equivalent of a monthly subscription and get *everything* (DDO VIP access). Or you can scale in-between and get *some*. When games are designed in a way that "the more you pay and the more you get" and that goes up to $10.000 or more a month (pretty much any asian mmo), it just doesn't work anymore.
Simply because F2P games are designed around the micro payment model to fully get anything out of them, which a player can easily loose track and have it amount to more each month than a monthly sub would. It also encourages bad game design, developers spend their time looking for ways to make you use the micro store instead of fun innovate game design to just entertain you for your monthly sub.. The community of F2p leaves a lot to be desired, at least the sub separates gamers from the bottom feeders who can't afford to pay to be in a community and infect it with their nasty ghetto type attitude. In F2P these types get to hang in the social hub part and ruin it.
In the same post I made this point, which clearly states that within a subscription model, any of those bonuses or edges would be available to everyone without having to pay anything additional, thus creating a level playing field. It's even in the same text you highlighted. That's part of what the problem is with F2P games: an even playing field. You can say, "well, shell out the money or don't play F2P." I'd rather play subscription games and get everything that all players should be entitled from the moment of their first purchase, rather than letting the developer nickel and dime me, the consumer, at every possible intersection. Again, unintelligent and uneducated. Players have a more fair and balanced experience with a subscription model, and it doesn't allow the developers to literally create new ways to steal money from their consumers on a daily basis. That's all there is to it.
"This is life! We suffer and slave and expire. That's it!" -Bernard Black (Dylan Moran)
You dont have everything, P2P mmo now use Cash shop too.
That's a ridiculous statement coming from someone who's debating on message boards. We are all voting with our wallets already, that's to be assumed if we play MMO's. We're also posting on forums about why we believe one is better than the other. To say we can't do one without the other is pretty absurd, and coming from you, someone who's been championing F2P in as many posts as I can find on the subject to tell me that I'm posting the same old rhetoric is calling the kettle black. Most of my arguments within this thread are entirely different from the others stating their desire to only play subscription based games, so find a new approach: this one isn't working.
"This is life! We suffer and slave and expire. That's it!" -Bernard Black (Dylan Moran)
Lets avoid personal attacks guys, keep it civil.