There is no lie that the code of FFXIV is salvaged from FFXI, and no lie that FFXI had no jumping.
There is no lie that the time/money to implement it *now*, and make sure it doesn't just get people stuck on everything they already made (which does not support jumping) is not worth it.
There is no lie that jumping is uncomplimentary to combat.
There is no lie that SE has no experience with it outside of KH, a game that is so radically different from this one that it simply cannot apply.
There is no lie about jumping being *pointless* without predetermined areas where it's necessary.
The only person lying here is you, to yourself, and to the rest of us.
Quit bullshitting and maybe someone will start to take you seriously for once.
You're stating a case for forum posters being completely delusional and ignorant about anything they want out of a game.
When you and others claim that jumping = automatic exploits/bunny hopping/cheating, etc... Those are the lies I'm talking about.
Jumping is not pointless when you're able to jump over fences, boulders and other small obstacles instead of going around them. It's a small and often overlooked feature but It adds to the realism and immersion in a game.
There is no lie that the code of FFXIV is salvaged from FFXI, and no lie that FFXI had no jumping.
There is no lie that the time/money to implement it *now*, and make sure it doesn't just get people stuck on everything they already made (which does not support jumping) is not worth it.
There is no lie that jumping is uncomplimentary to combat.
There is no lie that SE has no experience with it outside of KH, a game that is so radically different from this one that it simply cannot apply.
There is no lie about jumping being *pointless* without predetermined areas where it's necessary.
The only person lying here is you, to yourself, and to the rest of us.
Quit bullshitting and maybe someone will start to take you seriously for once.
You're stating a case for forum posters being completely delusional and ignorant about anything they want out of a game.
When you and others claim that jumping = automatic exploits/bunny hopping/cheating, etc... Those are the lies I'm talking about.
Jumping is not pointless when you're able to jump over fences, boulders and other small obstacles instead of going around them. It's a small and often overlooked feaured but It adds to the realism and immersion in a game.
It also allows you to get where you are not meant to be, quit BSing me. I said that the simple fact of having jumping in game creates an incentive to abuse it - I never said it shouldn't be in a game because of said abuse, only for the various other reasons why that development cycle of this game is over, and it's too late to put in. You've tried to put those words in my mouth all day, quoted me a handful of times, and still fail to make your point. Give the hell up already, beacause anywhere you heard it was not from me, and you have failed repeatedly in trying to prove it.
~and if that single tacet is all you have to bring to the table after being made a fool of all day, and regardless of ALL the other information brought to the table, then you don't deserve to even have an opinion.
I'm also starting to think you and Jet are the same person, and if that's the case, you are more pathetic than anyone I have ever encountered here in my life.
Writer / Musician / Game Designer
Now Playing: Skyrim, Wurm Online, Tropico 4 Waiting On: GW2, TSW, Archeage, The Rapture
There is no lie that the code of FFXIV is salvaged from FFXI, and no lie that FFXI had no jumping.
There is no lie that the time/money to implement it *now*, and make sure it doesn't just get people stuck on everything they already made (which does not support jumping) is not worth it.
There is no lie that jumping is uncomplimentary to combat.
There is no lie that SE has no experience with it outside of KH, a game that is so radically different from this one that it simply cannot apply.
There is no lie about jumping being *pointless* without predetermined areas where it's necessary.
The only person lying here is you, to yourself, and to the rest of us.
Quit bullshitting and maybe someone will start to take you seriously for once.
You're stating a case for forum posters being completely delusional and ignorant about anything they want out of a game.
When you and others claim that jumping = automatic exploits/bunny hopping/cheating, etc... Those are the lies I'm talking about.
Jumping is not pointless when you're able to jump over fences, boulders and other small obstacles instead of going around them. It's a small and often overlooked feaured but It adds to the realism and immersion in a game.
It also allows you to get where you are not meant to be, quit BSing me.
If that single tacet is all you have to bring to the table after being made a fool of all day, and regardless of ALL the other information brought to the table, then you don't deserve to even have an opinion.
I'm also starting to think you and Jet are the same person, and if that's the case, you are more pathetic than anyone I have ever encountered here in my life.
There are other ways of getting to where you're not supposed to be. Just like with any other exploit, if a game is programmed properly, you don't have to worry about it.
Speaking of pathetic, you've spent the whole day spouting baseless claims and doing the whole "nanana I can't hear you" routine. Despite all of that, I think that we have made some progress here because we have come to realize that bunny hopping doesn't exist in MMORPGs, jump shooting is not an exploit and that you have no idea what you're talking about. It's funny how you actually think that you've made a fool out of someone other than yourself.
There are other ways of getting to where you're not supposed to be. Just like with any other exploit, if a game is programmed properly, you don't have to worry about it.
Speaking of pathetic, you've spent the whole day spouting baseless claims and doing the whole "nanana I can't hear you" routine. Despite all of that, I think that we have made some progress here because we have come to realize that bunny hopping doesn't exist in MMORPGs, jump shooting is not an exploit and that you have no idea what you're talking about. It's funny how you actually think that you've made a fool out of someone other than yourself.
First of all, I have nothing better to do and this is how I refine my wit and debate skills. Plus you've been here the whole time with me, so don't even try to speak like your absolved.
I've given you every possible reason in the book as to why this game doesn't need to bend over and take it from you so late in development. It's too goddamn late to do anything about it.
Plus I am genuinely sick of you putting words in my mouth, failing to prove I even said it, repeatedly, and then continue to bring it up without proof that I did. I DID NOT say a game should remove or avoid the ability to jump because of exploits, all I said is that they are inevitable no matter what you do so long as it's in there. That is a factoid, but you've spun it six ways to sunday, and you deserve a medal for your creative dissassembly of facts in order to turn it into hearsay.
You don't have any clue as to what you are talking about, zero industry knowledge, and no idea what SE is even capable of - yet you still make incredibly stupid demands. Bottom line, you are WRONG.
I do apologize for confusing you as the same person though, I realized you are just incredibly snarky and stubborn, while the other guy is just insipid. That much, at least, is to your credit.
Writer / Musician / Game Designer
Now Playing: Skyrim, Wurm Online, Tropico 4 Waiting On: GW2, TSW, Archeage, The Rapture
There are other ways of getting to where you're not supposed to be. Just like with any other exploit, if a game is programmed properly, you don't have to worry about it.
Speaking of pathetic, you've spent the whole day spouting baseless claims and doing the whole "nanana I can't hear you" routine. Despite all of that, I think that we have made some progress here because we have come to realize that bunny hopping doesn't exist in MMORPGs, jump shooting is not an exploit and that you have no idea what you're talking about. It's funny how you actually think that you've made a fool out of someone other than yourself.
First of all, I have nothing better to do and this is how I refine my wit and debate skills. Plus you've been here the whole time with me, so don't even try to speak like your absolved.
I've given you every possible reason in the book as to why this game doesn't need to bend over and take it from you so late in development. It's too goddamn late to do anything about it.
Plus I am genuinely sick of you putting words in my mouth, failing to prove I even said it, repeatedly, and then continue to bring it up without proof that I did. I DID NOT say a game should remove or avoid the ability to jump because of exploits, all I said is that they are inevitable no matter what you do so long as it's in there. That is a factoid, but you've spun it six ways to sunday, and you deserve a medal for your creative dissassembly of facts in order to turn it into hearsay.
You don't have any clue as to what you are talking about, zero industry knowledge, and no idea what SE is even capable of - yet you still make incredibly stupid demands. Bottom line, you are WRONG.
I do apologize for confusing you as the same person though, I realized you are just incredibly snarky and stubborn, while the other guy is just insipid. That much, at least, is to your credit.
You're a child who resorts to insults to support his position. The reasons you have put forth have been debunked and yet you still consider them to be valid. You refuse to acknowledge your own comments, even when they are plainly visible on previous pages, then claim that people put words in your mouth.
As far as refining your debate skills "nanana I can't hear you!" is not a debate skill, neither is using logical fallacies.
Edit: After a bit of consideration, I believe that this conversation has ran it's course. Take care and enjoy your game!
There are other ways of getting to where you're not supposed to be. Just like with any other exploit, if a game is programmed properly, you don't have to worry about it.
Speaking of pathetic, you've spent the whole day spouting baseless claims and doing the whole "nanana I can't hear you" routine. Despite all of that, I think that we have made some progress here because we have come to realize that bunny hopping doesn't exist in MMORPGs, jump shooting is not an exploit and that you have no idea what you're talking about. It's funny how you actually think that you've made a fool out of someone other than yourself.
First of all, I have nothing better to do and this is how I refine my wit and debate skills. Plus you've been here the whole time with me, so don't even try to speak like your absolved.
I've given you every possible reason in the book as to why this game doesn't need to bend over and take it from you so late in development. It's too goddamn late to do anything about it.
Plus I am genuinely sick of you putting words in my mouth, failing to prove I even said it, repeatedly, and then continue to bring it up without proof that I did. I DID NOT say a game should remove or avoid the ability to jump because of exploits, all I said is that they are inevitable no matter what you do so long as it's in there. That is a factoid, but you've spun it six ways to sunday, and you deserve a medal for your creative dissassembly of facts in order to turn it into hearsay.
You don't have any clue as to what you are talking about, zero industry knowledge, and no idea what SE is even capable of - yet you still make incredibly stupid demands. Bottom line, you are WRONG.
I do apologize for confusing you as the same person though, I realized you are just incredibly snarky and stubborn, while the other guy is just insipid. That much, at least, is to your credit.
You're a child who resorts to insults to support his position. The reasons you have put forth have been debunked and yet you still consider them to be valid. You refuse to acknowledge your own comments, even when they are plainly visible on previous pages, then claim that people put words in your mouth.
As far as refining your debate skills "nanana I can't hear you!" is not a debate skill, neither is using logical fallacies.
Edit: After a bit of consideration, I believe that this conversation has ran it's course. Take care and enjoy your game!
Yes heartles syou have been correct, logical, and attempted to help GT understand why he should never post anything on the internet ever agian, but alas helping him was too much to hope for.
GT the thread is all yours, not becuase of any reason, but just becuase it could cause exploits.
"Society in every state is a blessing, but government even in its best state is but a necessary evil; in its worst state an intolerable one ..." - Thomas Paine
You're a child who resorts to insults to support his position. The reasons you have put forth have been debunked and yet you still consider them to be valid. You refuse to acknowledge your own comments, even when they are plainly visible on previous pages, then claim that people put words in your mouth.
As far as refining your debate skills "nanana I can't hear you!" is not a debate skill, neither is using logical fallacies.
You haven't debunked anything.
You made one single good point on how the jumping shot is not an exploit because it involves an instant cast, but then you couldn't even credit/discredit that jumping can halt attack animations in Aion or WoW. The rest has been about me giving you dozens of reasons as to why a company wouldn't, and *shouldn't* bother at this point, but you seem intent on making me admit to saying something I didn't, and my guess is only because you need to save some face here.
As for namecalling, you've had your share too, and if i have to quote you there - then you have to quote me on what you think I said. It didn't happen, but it's the entire linchpin of your argument at this point, and nothing else presented matters until you get what you want.
Anyone bored enough to read all this can make their own presumptions, and I'm confident the information is supple enough to reach an inlelligent conclusion, but as for where this argument is even going - you are going to need some solidarity on your claim about me - because the only thing carrying your side is pride.
@and Jet is an interesting specimen as well, because trolls will join any side of the argument that will suit their own goals, regardless of having to actually think about anything.
Writer / Musician / Game Designer
Now Playing: Skyrim, Wurm Online, Tropico 4 Waiting On: GW2, TSW, Archeage, The Rapture
It also allows you to get where you are not meant to be, quit BSing me. I said that the simple fact of having jumping in game creates an incentive to abuse it - I never said it shouldn't be in a game because of said abuse, only for the various other reasons why that development cycle of this game is over, and it's too late to put in. You've tried to put those words in my mouth all day, quoted me a handful of times, and still fail to make your point. Give the hell up already, beacause anywhere you heard it was not from me, and you have failed repeatedly in trying to prove it.
~and if that single tacet is all you have to bring to the table after being made a fool of all day, and regardless of ALL the other information brought to the table, then you don't deserve to even have an opinion.
I'm also starting to think you and Jet are the same person, and if that's the case, you are more pathetic than anyone I have ever encountered here in my life.
If you are not meant to be in an area (jumping or no jumping) then it's a bug, and that my friend is the programers fault and not the players. Besides I get into area's I am not meant to be all the time in a no jumping game, it's called getting stuck. Again a BUG. These things tend to happen / reported more in non-jumping games than they do in jumping games. Most of these never get fixed LoL.
Jumping is not the only thing in a game that get's abused.....EVERYTHING created in a game gives people incentive to abuse it. Again not the players fault but the programmers.
Velika: City of Wheels: Among the mortal races, the humans were the only one that never built cities or great empires; a curse laid upon them by their creator, Gidd, forced them to wander as nomads for twenty centuries...
It also allows you to get where you are not meant to be, quit BSing me. I said that the simple fact of having jumping in game creates an incentive to abuse it - I never said it shouldn't be in a game because of said abuse, only for the various other reasons why that development cycle of this game is over, and it's too late to put in. You've tried to put those words in my mouth all day, quoted me a handful of times, and still fail to make your point. Give the hell up already, beacause anywhere you heard it was not from me, and you have failed repeatedly in trying to prove it.
~and if that single tacet is all you have to bring to the table after being made a fool of all day, and regardless of ALL the other information brought to the table, then you don't deserve to even have an opinion.
I'm also starting to think you and Jet are the same person, and if that's the case, you are more pathetic than anyone I have ever encountered here in my life.
If you are not meant to be in an area (jumping or no jumping) then it's a bug, and that my friend is the programers fault and not the players. Besides I get into area's I am not meant to be all the time in a no jumping game, it's called getting stuck. Again a BUG. These things tend to happen / reported more in non-jumping games than they do in jumping games. Most of these never get fixed LoL.
Jumping is not the only thing in a game that get's abused.....EVERYTHING created in a game gives people incentive to abuse it. Again not the players fault but the programmers.
...
That route of thinking is correct, but you got a lot of things mixed up. It's the designers job to have enough of a psychology degree to predict how a player is going to break his game, and most jump related issues involve collision, which is the art department. Programmers deal with hack related issues, like being able to use the Z axis to scroll above and below the floor plane, and ways to prevent players from doing it - and that then is on the IT crew, not the traditional programmer.
While I guess you can't really blame a player for breaking the rules (I guess it is their job in a way), the blame for any issue never lies on a single person. There is far too much going on than you probably imagine.
Writer / Musician / Game Designer
Now Playing: Skyrim, Wurm Online, Tropico 4 Waiting On: GW2, TSW, Archeage, The Rapture
Strange how a thread about the decision of a company's direction in regards to not having a certain movement mechanic, such as jumping, turn into the dueling maelstrom of epic proportion.
When a debate goes into the relams of either knowing what MOST of us actually do in gaming, only because they have a decade of mmo playing and arrogantly believe they can speak on our behalf...that's when they have lost all credibility.
Guys, you're both right and both wrong. If you can't leave it at that, then by all means continue to degrade yourselves into shadows of any semblance of rational, intelligent, sane people.
FFXIV didn't implement jumping, and to them it doesn't need it. We can only decide whether it is gamebreaking for us or not. The whole debate as to whether jumping "should" be implemented in an mmo has been proven to be moot as either side is justified but neither of you can let the bone go. It has become personal and should be ended now.
You're a child who resorts to insults to support his position. The reasons you have put forth have been debunked and yet you still consider them to be valid. You refuse to acknowledge your own comments, even when they are plainly visible on previous pages, then claim that people put words in your mouth.
As far as refining your debate skills "nanana I can't hear you!" is not a debate skill, neither is using logical fallacies.
You haven't debunked anything.
You made one single good point on how the jumping shot is not an exploit because it involves an instant cast, but then you couldn't even credit/discredit that jumping can halt attack animations in Aion or WoW. The rest has been about me giving you dozens of reasons as to why a company wouldn't, and *shouldn't* bother at this point, but you seem intent on making me admit to saying something I didn't, and my guess is only because you need to save some face here.
As for namecalling, you've had your share too, and if i have to quote you there - then you have to quote me on what you think I said. It didn't happen, but it's the entire linchpin of your argument at this point, and nothing else presented matters until you get what you want.
Anyone bored enough to read all this can make their own presumptions, and I'm confident the information is supple enough to reach an inlelligent conclusion, but as for where this argument is even going - you are going to need some solidarity on your claim about me - because the only thing carrying your side is pride.
@and Jet is an interesting specimen as well, because trolls will join any side of the argument that will suit their own goals, regardless of having to actually think about anything.
Jumping does not halt attack animations in WoW. The only thing jumping allows a ranged character to do is you can jump, do a 360 degree turn and use an instant cast attack to hit a persuing enemy. That is it. It does not halt any animations nor does it offer any exploits. Aion, I'm not sure about but either way, who cares? Just because one game has an issue with something, doesn't mean that the feature should be excluded from other games. It just doesn't make sense.
As far as quoting you, I already did that when you denied stating that jumping causes exploits. Yet you still refuse admit that you were wrong. As you said, anyone can go back a read your nonsense to see that you're not being honest. It's also obvious that you're at a point where you will lap up anything SquareEnix throws your way and make up any excuse to present it in a favorable light.
Anyway, it doesn't matter. Enjoy your game! I hope that it will live up to your expectations.
Strange how a thread about the decision of a company's direction in regards to not having a certain movement mechanic, such as jumping, turn into the dueling maelstrom of epic proportion.
When a debate goes into the relams of either knowing what MOST of us actually do in gaming, only because they have a decade of mmo playing and arrogantly believe they can speak on our behalf...that's when they have lost all credibility.
Guys, you're both right and both wrong. If you can't leave it at that, then by all means continue to degrade yourselves into shadows of any semblance of rational, intelligent, sane people.
FFXIV didn't implement jumping, and to them it doesn't need it. We can only decide whether it is gamebreaking for us or not. The whole debate as to whether jumping "should" be implemented in an mmo has been proven to be moot as either side is justified but neither of you can let the bone go. It has become personal and should be ended now.
I get where you are coming from, we both need to shutup, but you have no place in guessing where my credentials stand. 10 years of MMO gaming is compounded on 22 years of gaming in general, and previous employ in QA. I have a very strong knowledge of this stuff from the testers position, and have had hands on experience in dealing with collision renders and AI meshes - many things that are part of the test case process - everything I have supposed is fact beyond my assumption of atypical player behavior. That much is personal theory from being an observant human, exactly how the process was started, long before you needed credentials to be taken seriously in that department.
Writer / Musician / Game Designer
Now Playing: Skyrim, Wurm Online, Tropico 4 Waiting On: GW2, TSW, Archeage, The Rapture
I get where you are coming from, we both need to shutup, but you have no place in guessing where my credentials stand. 10 years of MMO gaming is compounded on 22 years of gaming in general, and previous employ in QA. I have a very strong knowledge of this stuff from the testers position, and have had hands on experience in dealing with collision renders and AI meshes - many things that are part of the test case process - everything I have supposed is fact beyond my assumption of atypical player behavior. That much is personal theory from being an observant human, exactly how the process was started, long before you needed credentials to be taken seriously in that department.
Being an observant human and an avid gamer, developer, lion tamer, nuclear scientist, still gives you absolutely no ground to say you can predcit what 'Most' gamers will do, whether using an exploit, jump around trying to find something not there, or sit around trying to find that emote to pick their nose.
You may have seen SOME do that or read where MANY have do it, but you cannot in any rightful frame of mind say, that MOST do it. That is arrogance because no matter the baggage you carry, there is no proof that can justify that statement.
Jumping does not halt attack animations in WoW. The only thing jumping allows a ranged character to do is you can jump, do a 360 degree turn and use an instant cast attack to hit a persuing enemy. That is it. It does not halt any animations nor does it offer any exploits. Aion, I'm not sure about but either way, who cares? Just because one game has an issue with something, doesn't mean that the feature should be excluded from other games. It just doesn't make sense.
I never said it should be, you did and then said it was me.
As far as quoting you, I already did that when you denied stating that jumping causes exploits. Yet you still refuse admit that you were wrong. As you said, anyone can go back a read your nonsense to see that you're not being honest. It's also obvious that you're at a point where you will lap up anything SquareEnix throws your way and make up any excuse to present it in a favorable light.
You quoted me and failed, about 3 times, each time having it cropped so it suits what you are trying to get at. You know it, and you're doing a poor job of convincing me that you didn't, because it's in black and white a few pages back. Anyone can see it, or they can just buy into your bullshit at a fraction of the effort.
Anyway, it doesn't matter. Enjoy your game! I hope that it will live up to your expectations.
The only reason I battled today is to dispel idiocy. Players with outrageous expectations are killing the industry, and absolutely nothing will please them, ever.
Writer / Musician / Game Designer
Now Playing: Skyrim, Wurm Online, Tropico 4 Waiting On: GW2, TSW, Archeage, The Rapture
I get where you are coming from, we both need to shutup, but you have no place in guessing where my credentials stand. 10 years of MMO gaming is compounded on 22 years of gaming in general, and previous employ in QA. I have a very strong knowledge of this stuff from the testers position, and have had hands on experience in dealing with collision renders and AI meshes - many things that are part of the test case process - everything I have supposed is fact beyond my assumption of atypical player behavior. That much is personal theory from being an observant human, exactly how the process was started, long before you needed credentials to be taken seriously in that department.
Being an observant human and an avid gamer, developer, lion tamer, nuclear scientist, still gives you absolutely no ground to say you can predcit what 'Most' gamers will do, whether using an exploit, jump around trying to find something not there, or sit around trying to find that emote to pick their nose.
You may have seen SOME do that or read where MANY have do it, but you cannot in any rightful frame of mind say, that MOST do it. That is arrogance because no matter the baggage you carry, there is no proof that can justify that statement.
What the hell do you think a designers job IS?
[to predict this kind of outcome]
You may not like my jib, but it's a cold hard fact about how things need to be approached.
As for "how much of it I've seen in any one place at a time"?
AoC - Tyranny at launch. Take a refresher.
Writer / Musician / Game Designer
Now Playing: Skyrim, Wurm Online, Tropico 4 Waiting On: GW2, TSW, Archeage, The Rapture
You may not like my jib, but it's a cold hard fact about how things need to be approached.
As for "how much of it I've seen"? AoC - Tyranny at launch. Take a refresher.
A designer's job is to predict what happen with whatever is created, the testers are there to ensure it runs without crashes or bugs that interupt the flow and/or playability of the game.
Their job is NOT, to ASSUME what most of their playerbase WILL do but only what they CAN do. You said that MOST would use an exploit where this is simply wrong, as you don't know your playerbase.
Guessing is by no way a science, statistics can tell you that without any credentials.
You may not like my jib, but it's a cold hard fact about how things need to be approached.
As for "how much of it I've seen"? AoC - Tyranny at launch. Take a refresher.
A designer's job is to predict what happen with whatever is created, the testers are there to ensure it runs without crashes or bugs that interupt the flow and/or playability of the game.
Their job is NOT, to ASSUME what most of their playerbase WILL do but only what they CAN do. You said that MOST would use an exploit where this is simply wrong, as you don't know your playerbase.
Guessing is by no way a science, statistics can tell you that without any credentials.
WILL and CAN are the same thing so long as one person DOES. From there it spread to anyone interested enough to figure it out and try themselves.
As for MOST - that is exactly what I saw in AoC. MOST of the avid PvPers took any chance to use an exploitive spot, long before PvP points were even in, and MOST guilds were busy farming each other for PvP points the moment they dropped it in. The PvP setting of Tyranny is the prime example where MOST of the community is screwing around, please tell me you at least heard stories, because I can tell you plenty first-hand ones. On a daily basis, no matter where I was. The settling-in period of launches are ripe with "curious testers" that are overstretching the boundaries of legality as well. Compound that with an FFA server.
That's just how it is, and giving people too much credit for the sake of seeming "rational" doesn't work. Worstcase scenario does. If they would have thought more critically about ranger blindspots in the environment, stealthing necros that sick pets and the PvP point swap before it was even put it - then they would have never been a problem. Some of that stuff could have been solved with proper forethought.
~and forethought is an [assumption]
Writer / Musician / Game Designer
Now Playing: Skyrim, Wurm Online, Tropico 4 Waiting On: GW2, TSW, Archeage, The Rapture
You may not like my jib, but it's a cold hard fact about how things need to be approached.
As for "how much of it I've seen"? AoC - Tyranny at launch. Take a refresher.
A designer's job is to predict what happen with whatever is created, the testers are there to ensure it runs without crashes or bugs that interupt the flow and/or playability of the game.
Their job is NOT, to ASSUME what most of their playerbase WILL do but only what they CAN do. You said that MOST would use an exploit where this is simply wrong, as you don't know your playerbase.
Guessing is by no way a science, statistics can tell you that without any credentials.
WILL and CAN are the same thing so long as one person DOES. From there it spread to anyone interested enough to figure it out and try themselves.
As for MOST - that is exactly what I saw in AoC. MOST of the avid PvPers took any chance to use an exploitive spot, long before PvP points were even in, and MOST guilds were busy farming each other for PvP points the moment they dropped it in. The PvP setting of Tyranny is the prime example where MOST of the community is screwing around, please tell me you at least heard stories, because I can tell you plenty first-hand ones. On a daily basis, no matter where I was. The settling-in period of launches are ripe with "curious testers" that are overstretching the boundaries of legality as well. Compound that with an FFA server.
That's just how it is, and giving people too much credit for the sake of seeming "rational" doesn't work. Worstcase scenario does.
You probably don't want to hear this (and I know I'm a favorite around here), but those arguments are fallacious as well. If I understand correctly, you have put for the conclusion that the majority of players actively strive to exploit the game whenever such an opportunity is presented to them, and your premise for this is only that you can cite personal anecdotes of this being the case in individuals. That's a hasty generalization - you cannot assume something about a greater whole from a few examples that may not be representative of the whole.
Based on your last statement, would you agree with reasoning similar to Murphy's Law (which states: anything that can go wrong, will go wrong)? That is what I've gathered from your last sentence; correct me if I've misinterpreted it. Murphy's law is based on a fallacy of appeal to probability. In other words, just because something can happen, does not mean it will.
So, unfortunately, you'll have to come up with other arguments if you want to continue, as those are invalid (but honestly, this discussion is so convoluted already, we really should just call it quits entirely imo).
You probably don't want to hear this (and I know I'm a favorite around here), but those arguments are fallacious as well. If I understand correctly, you have put for the conclusion that the majority of players actively strive to exploit the game whenever such an opportunity is presented to them, and your premise for this is only that you can cite personal anecdotes of this being the case in individuals. That's a hasty generalization - you cannot assume something about a greater whole from a few examples that may not be representative of the whole.
Nope, but I think you are now stretching my use of the word 'most' into 'representative of the whole'. If you were there to actually witness this, you would attest to 'most' of the guilds abusing the point system, and every blind spot having a ganker on it, only to have another wrestle him off and take over. This is the personal experience of basically everyone on that server at launch. The conditions were just right to have 'most' of them taking part in it, in one way or another.
Based on your last statement, would you agree with reasoning similar to Murphy's Law (which states: anything that can go wrong, will go wrong)? That is what I've gathered from your last sentence; correct me if I've misinterpreted it. Murphy's law is based on a fallacy of appeal to probability. In other words, just because something can happen, does not mean it will.
Absolutely, but you can't lax on anything just because you assume the first incident might never happen. It's about nipping it in the bud with forethought - like I updated in my above ninja edit.
So, unfortunately, you'll have to come up with other arguments if you want to continue, as those are invalid (but honestly, this discussion is so convoluted already, we really should just call it quits entirely imo).
They are only invalid without a 2nd witness. You can't take my word for it, but if another Tyranny dude came by and said "ya it was pretty crazy at launch" you'd have second thoughts. Ever consider your problem is not about my argument, and is instead about my general attitude? It really seems like that's the case for wysperwind. There is no need to throw away logic because the guy using it is a dick you know...
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You probably don't want to hear this (and I know I'm a favorite around here), but those arguments are fallacious as well. If I understand correctly, you have put for the conclusion that the majority of players actively strive to exploit the game whenever such an opportunity is presented to them, and your premise for this is only that you can cite personal anecdotes of this being the case in individuals. That's a hasty generalization - you cannot assume something about a greater whole from a few examples that may not be representative of the whole.
Nope, but I think you are now stretching my use of the word 'most' into 'representative of the whole'. If you were there to actually witness this, you would attest to 'most' of the guilds abusing the point system, and every blind spot having a ganker on it, only to have another wrestle him off and take over. This is the personal experience of basically everyone on that server at launch. The conditions were just right to have 'most' of them taking part in it, in one way or another.
Based on your last statement, would you agree with reasoning similar to Murphy's Law (which states: anything that can go wrong, will go wrong)? That is what I've gathered from your last sentence; correct me if I've misinterpreted it. Murphy's law is based on a fallacy of appeal to probability. In other words, just because something can happen, does not mean it will.
Absolutely, and you can't lax on anything just because you assume the first incident might never happen. It's about nipping it in the bud with forethought - like I updated in my above ninja edit.
So, unfortunately, you'll have to come up with other arguments if you want to continue, as those are invalid (but honestly, this discussion is so convoluted already, we really should just call it quits entirely imo).
They are only invalid without a 2nd witness. You can't take my word for it, but if another Tyranny dude came by and said "ya it was pretty crazy at launch" you'd have second thoughts. Ever consider your problem is not about my argument, and is instead about my general attitude? It really seems like that's the case for wysperwind. There is no need to throw away logic because the guy using it is a dick you know...
"False, everyone seeks that kind of advantage, especially when there is no chance of winning on your chutspah alone."
That was one of the phrases you used that lead me to my interpretation of your argument. If I took it wrong, I apologize.
However, it doesn't really matter if you did get a second witness, or even every single person on that particular server - it would not support the idea that most gamers in general desire to take any exploit they can find - which it seemed like you were arguing. I'm not saying you or anyone else's testimony is fabricated, I'm saying it's insufficient to draw conclusions about the greater whole of the gaming community.
There are indeed problems with your arguments and those of many others in this thread, but I agree that rational behavior and thought stems from a certain intellectual disposition that is unfortunately rarely displayed on forums such as this one.
Edit: Something important for everyone to remember is the importance of mentally disassociating people from ideas.
"False, everyone seeks that kind of advantage, especially when there is no chance of winning on your chutspah alone."
That was one of the phrases you used that lead me to my interpretation of your argument. If I took it wrong, I apologize.
Nope, you got my correct meaning out of it. What I am aiming to say is that if a player gets frustrated enough (never wins, always ganked, etc) you are going to see him react in ways he would not normally. Every player is this way, and the Tyranny server was the perfect catalyst to create the effects you think I'm overexaggerating. People didn't hack, they used simple ways to exploit geometry and poorly designed failsafe mechanics - like staying stealthed while the pets chase the prey *anywhere* in the zone. I mean anywhere, and it's amazing nobody predicted this could happen in the first place.
However, it doesn't really matter if you did get a second witness, or even every single person on that particular server - it would not support the idea that most gamers in general desire to take any exploit they can find - which it seemed like you were arguing. I'm not saying you or anyone else's testimony is fabricated, I'm saying it's insufficient to draw conclusions about the greater whole of the gaming community.
People have a dividing line that states what they think is cheating, and what isn't. Many people state that "if it's in the game, it's fair", and that if they didn't want them doing it - the ability to do so wouldn't be there. I've heard plenty of that during my run with that game, believe me.
While you think it's wrong to draw conclusions about the greater whole, there are the obvious stereotypes of FFA players being asshats, and F2P playes beign chodes. We both know it's not all of them, and I enjoy both kinds of games, but the stereotype DOES exist for a reason. A lot, if not many, maybe not most - but enough of them are that way.
There are indeed problems with your arguments and those of many others in this thread, but I agree that rational behavior and thought stems from a certain intellectual disposition that is unfortunately rarely displayed on forums such as this one.
Well, the problem is confusing a person's personal experiences as opinion. The events happened mind you, but the question of what ratio of players actually engage in it is more important than the fact it happens. In the chaotic early moments of that game, I truly believe every person has at least abused a single case - maybe not repeat offenders - but just when the situation arises and the player gets frustrated enough to actually go forward with it. I am dead serious when I say that exploitive maneauvers in that game were cyclical in the sense when one person is kicked from his illegal perch, the victor set up for revenge. He may not get just anybody, but the fact that he is abusing the spot for a select target (even once in his career), makes him a factor in this.
~and I truly believe the fraction of people who never did anything exploitive in those months, and I mean just once, is so small that it can't even be considered. Everyone has done it at least once, even unintentionally. There are way to many kinds of these events to even consider listing them, some class related, some location related, all very easy to do, get away with, and not feel bad over doing it.
Edit: Something important for everyone to remember is the importance of mentally disassociating people from ideas.
I don't understand what this means, if you could elaborate?
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They are only invalid without a 2nd witness. You can't take my word for it, but if another Tyranny dude came by and said "ya it was pretty crazy at launch" you'd have second thoughts. Ever consider your problem is not about my argument, and is instead about my general attitude? It really seems like that's the case for wysperwind. There is no need to throw away logic because the guy using it is a dick you know...
I don't have a problem with your attitude, I really don't know you nor does it color my choice of words.
Your simple usage of the word 'most' in describing anything is simply at fault. Period. Since you can only summarize your personal experiences, and they obviously cannot encompass the whole no matter how much you've played. It's a blanket statement that just shows a bit of arrogance in thinking you know it all, which you don't because no one does.
Logic, as you put, is only as good as the premises you use to bring your conclusion to fruition. Logic can validate any point of view if the construction of the argument is sound, regardless of its validity.
I don't have a problem with your attitude, I really don't know you nor does it color my choice of words.
Your simple usage of the word 'most' in describing anything is simply at fault. Period. Since you can only summarize your personal experiences, and they obviously cannot encompass the whole no matter how much you've played. It's a blanket statement that just shows a bit of arrogance in thinking you know it all, which you don't because no one does.
Logic, as you put, is only as good as the premises you use to bring your conclusion to fruition. Logic can validate any point of view if the construction of the argument is sound, regardless of its validity.
Please read my last post to TWrule, and understand there were so many ways to do it that you could even exploit unintentionally using broken class features, though the majority of it was seizing a blindspot for personal revenge. isolated cases add to the statistic, and it's nearly impossible to have "never exploited" in those months, even by accident. This is not including the PvP point march I keep bringing up, which was absolutely epidemic. it's hard to find because everyone did it in thier private instances of the border kingdoms, and even shared with the neighbors to make it easier on themselves.
The fact it was so easy to do, and it really hurt no one, made it very easy for the greater populace to actually accept it. Though if it was a legal thing to do in-game, they wouldn't have had those rollbacks.
I'n telling you once again; "most" of the players in Tyranny have exploited in one way or another.
Comments
When you and others claim that jumping = automatic exploits/bunny hopping/cheating, etc... Those are the lies I'm talking about.
Jumping is not pointless when you're able to jump over fences, boulders and other small obstacles instead of going around them. It's a small and often overlooked feature but It adds to the realism and immersion in a game.
It also allows you to get where you are not meant to be, quit BSing me. I said that the simple fact of having jumping in game creates an incentive to abuse it - I never said it shouldn't be in a game because of said abuse, only for the various other reasons why that development cycle of this game is over, and it's too late to put in. You've tried to put those words in my mouth all day, quoted me a handful of times, and still fail to make your point. Give the hell up already, beacause anywhere you heard it was not from me, and you have failed repeatedly in trying to prove it.
~and if that single tacet is all you have to bring to the table after being made a fool of all day, and regardless of ALL the other information brought to the table, then you don't deserve to even have an opinion.
I'm also starting to think you and Jet are the same person, and if that's the case, you are more pathetic than anyone I have ever encountered here in my life.
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There are other ways of getting to where you're not supposed to be. Just like with any other exploit, if a game is programmed properly, you don't have to worry about it.
Speaking of pathetic, you've spent the whole day spouting baseless claims and doing the whole "nanana I can't hear you" routine. Despite all of that, I think that we have made some progress here because we have come to realize that bunny hopping doesn't exist in MMORPGs, jump shooting is not an exploit and that you have no idea what you're talking about. It's funny how you actually think that you've made a fool out of someone other than yourself.
First of all, I have nothing better to do and this is how I refine my wit and debate skills. Plus you've been here the whole time with me, so don't even try to speak like your absolved.
I've given you every possible reason in the book as to why this game doesn't need to bend over and take it from you so late in development. It's too goddamn late to do anything about it.
Plus I am genuinely sick of you putting words in my mouth, failing to prove I even said it, repeatedly, and then continue to bring it up without proof that I did. I DID NOT say a game should remove or avoid the ability to jump because of exploits, all I said is that they are inevitable no matter what you do so long as it's in there. That is a factoid, but you've spun it six ways to sunday, and you deserve a medal for your creative dissassembly of facts in order to turn it into hearsay.
You don't have any clue as to what you are talking about, zero industry knowledge, and no idea what SE is even capable of - yet you still make incredibly stupid demands. Bottom line, you are WRONG.
I do apologize for confusing you as the same person though, I realized you are just incredibly snarky and stubborn, while the other guy is just insipid. That much, at least, is to your credit.
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You're a child who resorts to insults to support his position. The reasons you have put forth have been debunked and yet you still consider them to be valid. You refuse to acknowledge your own comments, even when they are plainly visible on previous pages, then claim that people put words in your mouth.
As far as refining your debate skills "nanana I can't hear you!" is not a debate skill, neither is using logical fallacies.
Edit: After a bit of consideration, I believe that this conversation has ran it's course. Take care and enjoy your game!
Yes heartles syou have been correct, logical, and attempted to help GT understand why he should never post anything on the internet ever agian, but alas helping him was too much to hope for.
GT the thread is all yours, not becuase of any reason, but just becuase it could cause exploits.
"Society in every state is a blessing, but government even in its best state is but a necessary evil; in its worst state an intolerable one ..." - Thomas Paine
You haven't debunked anything.
You made one single good point on how the jumping shot is not an exploit because it involves an instant cast, but then you couldn't even credit/discredit that jumping can halt attack animations in Aion or WoW. The rest has been about me giving you dozens of reasons as to why a company wouldn't, and *shouldn't* bother at this point, but you seem intent on making me admit to saying something I didn't, and my guess is only because you need to save some face here.
As for namecalling, you've had your share too, and if i have to quote you there - then you have to quote me on what you think I said. It didn't happen, but it's the entire linchpin of your argument at this point, and nothing else presented matters until you get what you want.
Anyone bored enough to read all this can make their own presumptions, and I'm confident the information is supple enough to reach an inlelligent conclusion, but as for where this argument is even going - you are going to need some solidarity on your claim about me - because the only thing carrying your side is pride.
@and Jet is an interesting specimen as well, because trolls will join any side of the argument that will suit their own goals, regardless of having to actually think about anything.
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If you are not meant to be in an area (jumping or no jumping) then it's a bug, and that my friend is the programers fault and not the players. Besides I get into area's I am not meant to be all the time in a no jumping game, it's called getting stuck. Again a BUG. These things tend to happen / reported more in non-jumping games than they do in jumping games. Most of these never get fixed LoL.
Jumping is not the only thing in a game that get's abused.....EVERYTHING created in a game gives people incentive to abuse it. Again not the players fault but the programmers.
Velika: City of Wheels: Among the mortal races, the humans were the only one that never built cities or great empires; a curse laid upon them by their creator, Gidd, forced them to wander as nomads for twenty centuries...
...
That route of thinking is correct, but you got a lot of things mixed up. It's the designers job to have enough of a psychology degree to predict how a player is going to break his game, and most jump related issues involve collision, which is the art department. Programmers deal with hack related issues, like being able to use the Z axis to scroll above and below the floor plane, and ways to prevent players from doing it - and that then is on the IT crew, not the traditional programmer.
While I guess you can't really blame a player for breaking the rules (I guess it is their job in a way), the blame for any issue never lies on a single person. There is far too much going on than you probably imagine.
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Strange how a thread about the decision of a company's direction in regards to not having a certain movement mechanic, such as jumping, turn into the dueling maelstrom of epic proportion.
When a debate goes into the relams of either knowing what MOST of us actually do in gaming, only because they have a decade of mmo playing and arrogantly believe they can speak on our behalf...that's when they have lost all credibility.
Guys, you're both right and both wrong. If you can't leave it at that, then by all means continue to degrade yourselves into shadows of any semblance of rational, intelligent, sane people.
FFXIV didn't implement jumping, and to them it doesn't need it. We can only decide whether it is gamebreaking for us or not. The whole debate as to whether jumping "should" be implemented in an mmo has been proven to be moot as either side is justified but neither of you can let the bone go. It has become personal and should be ended now.
Jumping does not halt attack animations in WoW. The only thing jumping allows a ranged character to do is you can jump, do a 360 degree turn and use an instant cast attack to hit a persuing enemy. That is it. It does not halt any animations nor does it offer any exploits. Aion, I'm not sure about but either way, who cares? Just because one game has an issue with something, doesn't mean that the feature should be excluded from other games. It just doesn't make sense.
As far as quoting you, I already did that when you denied stating that jumping causes exploits. Yet you still refuse admit that you were wrong. As you said, anyone can go back a read your nonsense to see that you're not being honest. It's also obvious that you're at a point where you will lap up anything SquareEnix throws your way and make up any excuse to present it in a favorable light.
Anyway, it doesn't matter. Enjoy your game! I hope that it will live up to your expectations.
Jumping = exploting is what is essentially being touted by the defense. I lol'd hard.
I get where you are coming from, we both need to shutup, but you have no place in guessing where my credentials stand. 10 years of MMO gaming is compounded on 22 years of gaming in general, and previous employ in QA. I have a very strong knowledge of this stuff from the testers position, and have had hands on experience in dealing with collision renders and AI meshes - many things that are part of the test case process - everything I have supposed is fact beyond my assumption of atypical player behavior. That much is personal theory from being an observant human, exactly how the process was started, long before you needed credentials to be taken seriously in that department.
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Being an observant human and an avid gamer, developer, lion tamer, nuclear scientist, still gives you absolutely no ground to say you can predcit what 'Most' gamers will do, whether using an exploit, jump around trying to find something not there, or sit around trying to find that emote to pick their nose.
You may have seen SOME do that or read where MANY have do it, but you cannot in any rightful frame of mind say, that MOST do it. That is arrogance because no matter the baggage you carry, there is no proof that can justify that statement.
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What the hell do you think a designers job IS?
[to predict this kind of outcome]
You may not like my jib, but it's a cold hard fact about how things need to be approached.
As for "how much of it I've seen in any one place at a time"?
AoC - Tyranny at launch. Take a refresher.
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A designer's job is to predict what happen with whatever is created, the testers are there to ensure it runs without crashes or bugs that interupt the flow and/or playability of the game.
Their job is NOT, to ASSUME what most of their playerbase WILL do but only what they CAN do. You said that MOST would use an exploit where this is simply wrong, as you don't know your playerbase.
Guessing is by no way a science, statistics can tell you that without any credentials.
WILL and CAN are the same thing so long as one person DOES. From there it spread to anyone interested enough to figure it out and try themselves.
As for MOST - that is exactly what I saw in AoC. MOST of the avid PvPers took any chance to use an exploitive spot, long before PvP points were even in, and MOST guilds were busy farming each other for PvP points the moment they dropped it in. The PvP setting of Tyranny is the prime example where MOST of the community is screwing around, please tell me you at least heard stories, because I can tell you plenty first-hand ones. On a daily basis, no matter where I was. The settling-in period of launches are ripe with "curious testers" that are overstretching the boundaries of legality as well. Compound that with an FFA server.
That's just how it is, and giving people too much credit for the sake of seeming "rational" doesn't work. Worstcase scenario does. If they would have thought more critically about ranger blindspots in the environment, stealthing necros that sick pets and the PvP point swap before it was even put it - then they would have never been a problem. Some of that stuff could have been solved with proper forethought.
~and forethought is an [assumption]
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You probably don't want to hear this (and I know I'm a favorite around here), but those arguments are fallacious as well. If I understand correctly, you have put for the conclusion that the majority of players actively strive to exploit the game whenever such an opportunity is presented to them, and your premise for this is only that you can cite personal anecdotes of this being the case in individuals. That's a hasty generalization - you cannot assume something about a greater whole from a few examples that may not be representative of the whole.
Based on your last statement, would you agree with reasoning similar to Murphy's Law (which states: anything that can go wrong, will go wrong)? That is what I've gathered from your last sentence; correct me if I've misinterpreted it. Murphy's law is based on a fallacy of appeal to probability. In other words, just because something can happen, does not mean it will.
So, unfortunately, you'll have to come up with other arguments if you want to continue, as those are invalid (but honestly, this discussion is so convoluted already, we really should just call it quits entirely imo).
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"False, everyone seeks that kind of advantage, especially when there is no chance of winning on your chutspah alone."
That was one of the phrases you used that lead me to my interpretation of your argument. If I took it wrong, I apologize.
However, it doesn't really matter if you did get a second witness, or even every single person on that particular server - it would not support the idea that most gamers in general desire to take any exploit they can find - which it seemed like you were arguing. I'm not saying you or anyone else's testimony is fabricated, I'm saying it's insufficient to draw conclusions about the greater whole of the gaming community.
There are indeed problems with your arguments and those of many others in this thread, but I agree that rational behavior and thought stems from a certain intellectual disposition that is unfortunately rarely displayed on forums such as this one.
Edit: Something important for everyone to remember is the importance of mentally disassociating people from ideas.
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I don't have a problem with your attitude, I really don't know you nor does it color my choice of words.
Your simple usage of the word 'most' in describing anything is simply at fault. Period. Since you can only summarize your personal experiences, and they obviously cannot encompass the whole no matter how much you've played. It's a blanket statement that just shows a bit of arrogance in thinking you know it all, which you don't because no one does.
Logic, as you put, is only as good as the premises you use to bring your conclusion to fruition. Logic can validate any point of view if the construction of the argument is sound, regardless of its validity.
Please read my last post to TWrule, and understand there were so many ways to do it that you could even exploit unintentionally using broken class features, though the majority of it was seizing a blindspot for personal revenge. isolated cases add to the statistic, and it's nearly impossible to have "never exploited" in those months, even by accident. This is not including the PvP point march I keep bringing up, which was absolutely epidemic. it's hard to find because everyone did it in thier private instances of the border kingdoms, and even shared with the neighbors to make it easier on themselves.
The fact it was so easy to do, and it really hurt no one, made it very easy for the greater populace to actually accept it. Though if it was a legal thing to do in-game, they wouldn't have had those rollbacks.
I'n telling you once again; "most" of the players in Tyranny have exploited in one way or another.
@plutonic, yeah sorry > >
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