I love it. All these "grown ups" cry babying about video games being easy enough for kids. Just who do you think they make video games for? Im still waiting for some hardcore to tell my what complex challenging MMO they play. I have yet to see one.
Actually, all M rated games are supposed to be for adults. Yes, I know, they're not usually, but they're supposed to be. Okay, okay, "17 and up" - but still, 17 is legally an adult in quite a few countries outside of the US.
Also, there are quite a few adult-only video games out there, and they've been created since gaming became a viable way to make money. Just because they're not available in the States doesn't mean they don't exist. And no, I'm not talking about those creepy Japanese games, either.
PC gaming in the 80's revolved around adults or at least people with a mature enough skillset to be able to think for themselves and problem-solve. Just play any of the old Sierra adventure games where you had to type every action out, in some cases within a few seconds of entering a scene in the game. Games became more and more targeted towards the younger audience (speaking of pc games here) not because games are "kid's toys" but because the under 18 audience tends to represent a large amount of disposable income.
ALSO: PC's became much more prevalent in the 90's, whereas in the 80's not nearly as many people had access to one, let alone the internet.
This doesn't change the fact that I'm actually agreeing with you, I just had to point out the pc gaming in the 80's and 90's was less about the kiddie and casual crowd and more about people who wanted to challenge their brains. The fact that there was no ratings system in place until the 90's does not change the fact that there have always been adult gamers
Also as a side note - I've been called "hardcore" by friends in the past, but I've never played a "complex challenging MMO" - they just don't exist. They can be tedious, they can be fun, but in the end they're mostly the same and boil down to lvl grind, quest grind, item grind, or skill grind.
I love it. All these "grown ups" cry babying about video games being easy enough for kids. Just who do you think they make video games for? Im still waiting for some hardcore to tell my what complex challenging MMO they play. I have yet to see one.
Actually, all M rated games are supposed to be for adults. Yes, I know, they're not usually, but they're supposed to be. Okay, okay, "17 and up" - but still, 17 is legally an adult in quite a few countries outside of the US.
Also, there are quite a few adult-only video games out there, and they've been created since gaming became a viable way to make money. Just because they're not available in the States doesn't mean they don't exist. And no, I'm not talking about those creepy Japanese games, either.
PC gaming in the 80's revolved around adults or at least people with a mature enough skillset to be able to think for themselves and problem-solve. Just play any of the old Sierra adventure games where you had to type every action out, in some cases within a few seconds of entering a scene in the game. Games became more and more targeted towards the younger audience (speaking of pc games here) not because games are "kid's toys" but because the under 18 audience tends to represent a large amount of disposable income.
ALSO: PC's became much more prevalent in the 90's, whereas in the 80's not nearly as many people had access to one, let alone the internet.
This doesn't change the fact that I'm actually agreeing with you, I just had to point out the pc gaming in the 80's and 90's was less about the kiddie and casual crowd and more about people who wanted to challenge their brains. The fact that there was no ratings system in place until the 90's does not change the fact that there have always been adult gamers
Also as a side note - I've been called "hardcore" by friends in the past, but I've never played a "complex challenging MMO" - they just don't exist. They can be tedious, they can be fun, but in the end they're mostly the same and boil down to lvl grind, quest grind, item grind, or skill grind.
I agree with most all of this. But the game in question is WOW. Rated T for Teen as most MMO's are. AOC may be M, cant remember for sure. But over and over we see posts about how the game is so easy. One guy said anybody 18+ laughs at the game. My point is that the game is made so that teens can play it. The 4 year old playing is a load of crap and we all know it, even the "adults" that would like to believe it.
WOW isnt great because it has 12 million players. WOW has 12 million players because its great.
I agree with most all of this. But the game in question is WOW. Rated T for Teen as most MMO's are. AOC may be M, cant remember for sure. But over and over we see posts about how the game is so easy. One guy said anybody 18+ laughs at the game. My point is that the game is made so that teens can play it. The 4 year old playing is a load of crap and we all know it, even the "adults" that would like to believe it.
No worries, I just get a little defensive when I see people post things I have a habit of misunderstanding. I thought you meant gaming in general was for kids. No harm, no foul, though, right?
Yes WoW is rated T as are most mmos. You are absolutely right, and thanks for clarifying.
I agree with most all of this. But the game in question is WOW. Rated T for Teen as most MMO's are. AOC may be M, cant remember for sure. But over and over we see posts about how the game is so easy. One guy said anybody 18+ laughs at the game. My point is that the game is made so that teens can play it. The 4 year old playing is a load of crap and we all know it, even the "adults" that would like to believe it.
No worries, I just get a little defensive when I see people post things I have a habit of misunderstanding. I thought you meant gaming in general was for kids. No harm, no foul, though, right?
Yes WoW is rated T as are most mmos. You are absolutely right, and thanks for clarifying.
Truth be told im not sure who games are made for. I dont know if your around any young folks but my teenage nephews all have consoles and are pretty darn good. More than once ive said, do that again lol.
WOW isnt great because it has 12 million players. WOW has 12 million players because its great.
There are certain things about Cata that I like and certain things I don't like... The things that simply made the game easier, such as showing glyphs available, or future abilities made it a lot easier to plan out what you're going to do. However. I dislike the new talent trees. Not so much for dumbing it down, however, as is it for making everybody the same. Before there were nine different types of each class, and now there are only three with the artifical limit raised to nine after you achieve mastery in one talent tree. All of these so-called useless passive talents is what makes one class unique from another hunter, even if they were part of the same tree. There were so many options even for one tree before that you had choice in every tree. Now you don't. Now you must choose abilities you don't like because you want the end result of that tree. I don't think that is fair to the players.
But I disagree with the people comparing this to the NGE of Star Wars Galaxies. This is nowhere near as bad as that. I think like with all major changes that happens to a video game, some of it is good, and some of it is bad.
The restructuring of talents wasn't for the players,, It was only done to make the devs job in "balancing" classes easier.. The game now is all tanks MUST tank with the same ability.. ( threat generation).. and all healers MUST toss out the same heals per second as others, and all dps MUST toss out the same damage per second.. When you allow players to min/max and customize their toon, you are going to get inbalances and this is what the devs were dealing with.. Back in the day I used to customize my hunter to be dps/cc toon.. The ability to be strong in traps and sleep shots,, and then toss out dps inbetween was great.. Often I would run dungeons with a mage and we rocked..
The revamping of talents wasn't to improve character CUSTOMIZATION, but to limit it to a define 31 point tree.. If so many of you think crown control is BACK in the game.. Let me know when that OPTION shows up on the LFD tool.. ha ha ha.. The fact that it's NOT, proves to me exactly what the devs are thinking and wanting.. A game that used to be 99% AOE fest, and then change it to 10% optional crowd control (IF you have it in your group) is pretty much the same thing.. Changing Salisbury steak to Swiss steak isn't an upgrade, it's only a different way of giving you the same crappy cut of meat only prepared differently..
The restructuring of talents wasn't for the players,, It was only done to make the devs job in "balancing" classes easier.. The game now is all tanks MUST tank with the same ability.. ( threat generation).. and all healers MUST toss out the same heals per second as others, and all dps MUST toss out the same damage per second.. When you allow players to min/max and customize their toon, you are going to get inbalances and this is what the devs were dealing with.. Back in the day I used to customize my hunter to be dps/cc toon.. The ability to be strong in traps and sleep shots,, and then toss out dps inbetween was great.. Often I would run dungeons with a mage and we rocked..
The revamping of talents wasn't to improve character CUSTOMIZATION, but to limit it to a define 31 point tree.. If so many of you think crown control is BACK in the game.. Let me know when that OPTION shows up on the LFD tool.. ha ha ha.. The fact that it's NOT, proves to me exactly what the devs are thinking and wanting.. A game that used to be 99% AOE fest, and then change it to 10% optional crowd control (IF you have it in your group) is pretty much the same thing.. Changing Salisbury steak to Swiss steak isn't an upgrade, it's only a different way of giving you the same crappy cut of meat only prepared differently..
Interestingly enough, you can still choose a talent spec that gives you emphasis on traps. The only difference is that now hunters can use more than just 1 trap at a time since they are on seperate cooldowns and you do not have to sacrifice dps talents to play as some specialized hunter. Sounds like a winning situation for your playstyle if you ask me.
This change isn't going to make the game magically easier to balance. Spending points in secondary trees did not produce balance issues. Blizzard is still going to have to balance 30 different classes against each other. Nothing there has changed.
Like it or not, crowd control is coming back to the game. Since all dps classes will also be able to bring some crowd control abilities to a group there is no need to make niche classes to fill that role.
I'm not sure where you get your "facts" from, but you really do not seem to understand wow anymore.
The restructuring of talents wasn't for the players,, It was only done to make the devs job in "balancing" classes easier.. The game now is all tanks MUST tank with the same ability.. ( threat generation).. and all healers MUST toss out the same heals per second as others, and all dps MUST toss out the same damage per second.. When you allow players to min/max and customize their toon, you are going to get inbalances and this is what the devs were dealing with.. Back in the day I used to customize my hunter to be dps/cc toon.. The ability to be strong in traps and sleep shots,, and then toss out dps inbetween was great.. Often I would run dungeons with a mage and we rocked..
The revamping of talents wasn't to improve character CUSTOMIZATION, but to limit it to a define 31 point tree.. If so many of you think crown control is BACK in the game.. Let me know when that OPTION shows up on the LFD tool.. ha ha ha.. The fact that it's NOT, proves to me exactly what the devs are thinking and wanting.. A game that used to be 99% AOE fest, and then change it to 10% optional crowd control (IF you have it in your group) is pretty much the same thing.. Changing Salisbury steak to Swiss steak isn't an upgrade, it's only a different way of giving you the same crappy cut of meat only prepared differently..
Interestingly enough, you can still choose a talent spec that gives you emphasis on traps. The only difference is that now hunters can use more than just 1 trap at a time since they are on seperate cooldowns and you do not have to sacrifice dps talents to play as some specialized hunter. Sounds like a winning situation for your playstyle if you ask me.
This change isn't going to make the game magically easier to balance. Spending points in secondary trees did not produce balance issues. Blizzard is still going to have to balance 30 different classes against each other. Nothing there has changed.
Like it or not, crowd control is coming back to the game. Since all dps classes will also be able to bring some crowd control abilities to a group there is no need to make niche classes to fill that role.
I'm not sure where you get your "facts" from, but you really do not seem to understand wow anymore.
I agree with Daff.
You have to look at the - end result - after this patch and the end result is that classes have more useful abilities than before with less points spend.
Also the "OPTIONS" in the end is seen in the playing of the class not in the number of talent points you set (some 1/5).
Now the DPS/healing is put in the technical playing style of the players and this can be seen in the so called "procs".
Simple example of in game:
I can only play "Word of Glory (a pala healing spell without using mana) IF and WHEN I do built up to 3 combo points. The same in the Retri class: I can NO longer Aoe Divine Storm, Now I need to build it and then unleash it at the perfect timing.
Aoe is hold on a leach and ... it is the player who decides where and when he lets it go and then tries to build it back up again.
So, it is not a matter of equal DPS output, it is now more then before the skills that let you excel.
Not by merely doubling the number of useful spells - keybinds - (for some classes) but also the built up and procs the player decides to play at the right time and the right place.
Clearly Rydeson lacks the on line playing experience at the moment. Every active player of the game would see this.
The restructuring of talents wasn't for the players,, It was only done to make the devs job in "balancing" classes easier.. The game now is all tanks MUST tank with the same ability.. ( threat generation).. and all healers MUST toss out the same heals per second as others, and all dps MUST toss out the same damage per second.. When you allow players to min/max and customize their toon, you are going to get inbalances and this is what the devs were dealing with.. Back in the day I used to customize my hunter to be dps/cc toon.. The ability to be strong in traps and sleep shots,, and then toss out dps inbetween was great.. Often I would run dungeons with a mage and we rocked..
The revamping of talents wasn't to improve character CUSTOMIZATION, but to limit it to a define 31 point tree.. If so many of you think crown control is BACK in the game.. Let me know when that OPTION shows up on the LFD tool.. ha ha ha.. The fact that it's NOT, proves to me exactly what the devs are thinking and wanting.. A game that used to be 99% AOE fest, and then change it to 10% optional crowd control (IF you have it in your group) is pretty much the same thing.. Changing Salisbury steak to Swiss steak isn't an upgrade, it's only a different way of giving you the same crappy cut of meat only prepared differently..
Interestingly enough, you can still choose a talent spec that gives you emphasis on traps. The only difference is that now hunters can use more than just 1 trap at a time since they are on seperate cooldowns and you do not have to sacrifice dps talents to play as some specialized hunter. Sounds like a winning situation for your playstyle if you ask me.
This change isn't going to make the game magically easier to balance. Spending points in secondary trees did not produce balance issues. Blizzard is still going to have to balance 30 different classes against each other. Nothing there has changed.
Like it or not, crowd control is coming back to the game. Since all dps classes will also be able to bring some crowd control abilities to a group there is no need to make niche classes to fill that role.
I'm not sure where you get your "facts" from, but you really do not seem to understand wow anymore.
I agree with Daff.
You have to look at the - end result - after this patch and the end result is that classes have more useful abilities than before with less points spend.
Also the "OPTIONS" in the end is seen in the playing of the class not in the number of talent points you set (some 1/5).
Now the DPS/healing is put in the technical playing style of the players and this can be seen in the so called "procs".
Simple example of in game:
I can only play "Word of Glory (a pala healing spell without using mana) IF and WHEN I do built up to 3 combo points. The same in the Retri class: I can NO longer Aoe Divine Storm, Now I need to build it and then unleash it at the perfect timing.
Aoe is hold on a leach and ... it is the player who decides where and when he lets it go and then tries to build it back up again.
So, it is not a matter of equal DPS output, it is now more then before the skills that let you excel.
Not by merely doubling the number of useful spells - keybinds - (for some classes) but also the built up and procs the player decides to play at the right time and the right place.
Clearly Rydeson lacks the on line playing experience at the moment. Every active player of the game would see this.
Clearly in your mind maybe, but not anyone rational.
Your reasoning behind the dumbing down of the talent trees is that now that the players have limited options, (and pumped up DPS) that they are defined by how they use those limited options. But then you say that you now have more options than you ever did before because your choices are better..... even though their not.
The END result is this, unbalanced PVP with less defense and much higher DPS, Spellcasting DPSers ripping people apart, harder raid content .. but since its now Eaiser to RAID it sort of balances out doesnt it? Seriously everyone is playing the same talent tree, you no longer have DR, and they got rid of other stats like spirit then turned up the knob on DPS, in other words simplified.
If it were not simply a matter of DPS output, how come the talent trees were stripped of Defensive talents, DPS talents were doubled in power and a few more added? How come hunter PVP viability was totally ignored in favor of standing in one spot building up focus? How come ranged spell caster DPS and Healing class DPS is off the charts, but classes like Enhancement Shaman are totally trashed even more than they were in WOTLK?
The END result is clear for anyone with eyes to see, dumbed down talent tree, dumbed down mechanics, PVP trashed, certain specs Trashed, all because they want to simplify the game so GC can claim some worthless victory and maybe attract the Farmville crowd to the game.
Insulting Rydeson with that childish remark doesn't mean your know what your talking about, your just acting foolish and on the defensive. His remark on the 31 point tree was spot on, all they did was revert to the Pre WOTLK system and simplify the talent trees so little Timmy and his Dad could figure it out, theres nothing the celebrate about there. This had to do more with GC enforcing his will on the game, which he had failed to do in WOTLK because everyone was making hybrids to SKIP his Terrible end tree talents, especially SUB rogues.
And yes you can still do a Trap Hunter, just not the Hybrid MM/Surv build alot of poeple were using. I cant make my old talent tree either for my old hunter and believe me I didnt have any useless talents. Im sorry but just being able to grab improved steady shot is in NO WAY comparitive to a WOTLK or BC build with 15 to 20 points to spend in another tree, NO WAY.
I have no problems with CC myself, I thought it was STUPID to get rid of it in favor of AOE ground blasting in the first place, however if simplifed mechanics, dumbed down trees and class inflexibility are the trade off, then No Thanks.
AB AB AB AB AB AB AB AB AB AB AB AB AB AB AB AB AB AB AB AB AB AB AB AB AB AB AB AB AB AB AB AB AB AB AB AB AB AB AB AB AB AB AB AB AB AB AB AB AB AB AB AB AB AB AB AB AB AB AB AB AB AB AB AB
20kdps ktnxbai
On icc bosses though, you sometimes have to evocate.... oh the horror.
What is dumbed down by the talent trees? It isn't like the previous talent trees took rocket science to figure out. Having a bunch of useless talents didn't make for skilled gameplay.
Also things like spirit still very much exist in the game, perhaps you meant something else like armor penitration? I don't see the problem with clearly defining what stats do or getting rid of stats thay didn't work out once they were exposed to wide gameplay.
The trap hunter for example still exists and isn't dumbed down now. More traps to manage, more abilities to use, less AE spamming, more crowd control. So what if talent points are fewer in number. The results of the talent system changes itself has are very small, but the overall combat and ability changes have made the game more engaging with more to manage and be aware of. There is so little difference between a 0/20/41 "hybird" everyone was running and 0/10/31 now. Spend skill points to max one tree then dabble a bit in another. What is so hybrid about that?
In Cataclysm, the way things are now in beta, if you hit an ability while the global cooldown is still counting down, the server will accept the command and hold it for you until the cooldown (on the server side) is finished. What this means is that if you have to cram as many abilities into a minute as you can, you will be able to chain them together one after another, no matter how bad your latency is. This is awesome, because right now, it doesn't always work out that way. You currently have to press a key as fast as you can and hope that the second the server starts accepting commands for your next cooldown, one of them landed. If your latency changes, or if you don't spam as fast as someone else, they could land more abilities in the same period of time.
The downside with this new ability chaining system is that if you send a command that's received half a second before the server is ready to execute your next ability, you can't change it. There are many reasons you'd want to do this, including procs, buffs, debuffs, boss mechanics or even better abilities coming off cooldown. Ghostcrawler's post indicates that Blizzard is planning on letting us change our command after it's been queued, though.
In addition, Blizzard will be implementing a new feature that lets you configure how early the server should start listening for the next command. It will eventually default to your average latency, and the closer it is to your latency, the better. Setting it high would be a perfectly fine option if we are indeed able to change our minds at the last minute; otherwise, it's better to stick to having it set at your average latency.
What this means is ... that in Cata the year long Global Cool Down mechanics we have been used to in all MMO's, will be a thing of the past.
Playing in Beta the timing and eye hand coordination became even more crucial.
Light years ahead of the old "wait for your ability" button.
See the evolution of professional game designers and then the ... (sic) dumbing down discussions on people who simply have no clue.
What is dumbed down by the talent trees? It isn't like the previous talent trees took rocket science to figure out. Having a bunch of useless talents didn't make for skilled gameplay.
Also things like spirit still very much exist in the game, perhaps you meant something else like armor penitration? I don't see the problem with clearly defining what stats do or getting rid of stats thay didn't work out once they were exposed to wide gameplay.
The trap hunter for example still exists and isn't dumbed down now. More traps to manage, more abilities to use, less AE spamming, more crowd control. So what if talent points are fewer in number. The results of the talent system changes itself has are very small, but the overall combat and ability changes have made the game more engaging with more to manage and be aware of. There is so little difference between a 0/20/41 "hybird" everyone was running and 0/10/31 now. Spend skill points to max one tree then dabble a bit in another. What is so hybrid about that?
I'm sorry, but rydeson is wrong and misinformed.
Spoken like somone who has never played a Hunter, 20 points in Marks before the CAT patch and the rest in Surv, is A LOT more DPS than just picking up improved steady shot, there isn't a rational argument you can make to disprove it. Warlocks trying to cross spec will find they have a 5 to ten point deficit not a gain compared to before the recent changes.
And what useless talents are you talking about exactly, be specific if your going to talk trash. For instance, dispersion is far from good enough to be a end tree talent... yet it is still there. So I guess that does away with your getting rid of useless talents theory, what about Enhancement shaman? I mean all of their good abilities were trashed and replaced with useless ones, so where is this supposes clean up job when it comes to them?
Whenever I hear someone saying the old talent trees were too complicated and had useless talents I picture some kid throwing a fit behind his keyboard complaining about the game being too hard to figure out. Some people who like the simplicity of the new trees get offended when someone calls it for what it really is, dumbing down. Just because you like playing at the level of least common denominator doesnt mean everyone else does.
Bottom line these talent trees are foolishly easy, the choice has been reduced to what spec you want to play, and there is a huge difference between 20 points then and 10 points now. Its a reduction in flexibility, choice and an obvious talent tax.
Fwiw, im giving wow another month for a few reasons. I know better than to take my first week impressions at face value. Im not going to walk away from my 4+ yr old priest just because i had a frustrating week. Blizzard constantl makes changes to their game so it could get better. And finally, i do in fact listen to ppl on these forums that disagree with me and sometimes even give them the benefit of the doubt heh
Lets go back to the way it was and those that thought the past talent system was conmplex can search the web for the best build and use it like they have done for the last 6 years. The copy paste method works best for the uber hardcore.
WOW isnt great because it has 12 million players. WOW has 12 million players because its great.
What is dumbed down by the talent trees? It isn't like the previous talent trees took rocket science to figure out. Having a bunch of useless talents didn't make for skilled gameplay.
Also things like spirit still very much exist in the game, perhaps you meant something else like armor penitration? I don't see the problem with clearly defining what stats do or getting rid of stats thay didn't work out once they were exposed to wide gameplay.
The trap hunter for example still exists and isn't dumbed down now. More traps to manage, more abilities to use, less AE spamming, more crowd control. So what if talent points are fewer in number. The results of the talent system changes itself has are very small, but the overall combat and ability changes have made the game more engaging with more to manage and be aware of. There is so little difference between a 0/20/41 "hybird" everyone was running and 0/10/31 now. Spend skill points to max one tree then dabble a bit in another. What is so hybrid about that?
I'm sorry, but rydeson is wrong and misinformed.
Spoken like somone who has never played a Hunter, 20 points in Marks before the CAT patch and the rest in Surv, is A LOT more DPS than just picking up improved steady shot, there isn't a rational argument you can make to disprove it. Warlocks trying to cross spec will find they have a 5 to ten point deficit not a gain compared to before the recent changes.
And what useless talents are you talking about exactly, be specific if your going to talk trash. For instance, dispersion is far from good enough to be a end tree talent... yet it is still there. So I guess that does away with your getting rid of useless talents theory, what about Enhancement shaman? I mean all of their good abilities were trashed and replaced with useless ones, so where is this supposes clean up job when it comes to them?
Whenever I hear someone saying the old talent trees were too complicated and had useless talents I picture some kid throwing a fit behind his keyboard complaining about the game being too hard to figure out. Some people who like the simplicity of the new trees get offended when someone calls it for what it really is, dumbing down. Just because you like playing at the level of least common denominator doesnt mean everyone else does.
Bottom line these talent trees are foolishly easy, the choice has been reduced to what spec you want to play, and there is a huge difference between 20 points then and 10 points now. Its a reduction in flexibility, choice and an obvious talent tax.
Having spent several days now tooling around with my guys, I think it has gone beyond dumbing down of the trees. Even taking into account the availability of some of the talents as glyphs now, the trees are not only simplistic in what they offer - but things you used to be able to take and do are simply not there.
Lost my favorite Warlock spec - it simply not a possibility. My Elemental Shaman will not be able to get insta GW until level 82. The Retadin is just as boring and slow to play. My Frost DK is slower. Two that really did not change. The Warrior that I am leveling... will not get TG until level 70 instead of 60.
This led me to the realization of what Blizzard has done here to those that did not purchase BC or those that did not purchase LK... Vanilla folks will not see end of tree. Crusade folks can see end of tree, but are stuck in one tree.
Blizzard really screwed over those that only play through 60 or through 70...
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Lets go back to the way it was and those that thought the past talent system was conmplex can search the web for the best build and use it like they have done for the last 6 years. The copy paste method works best for the uber hardcore.
Philby, you realize that stating something such as this is kind of ironic? There are fewer talents, even if you take into account the glyphs and specialization. So, for those that did go through and do what you said...
...it is even easier to do that now as well.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Lets go back to the way it was and those that thought the past talent system was conmplex can search the web for the best build and use it like they have done for the last 6 years. The copy paste method works best for the uber hardcore.
Philby, you realize that stating something such as this is kind of ironic? There are fewer talents, even if you take into account the glyphs and specialization. So, for those that did go through and do what you said...
...it is even easier to do that now as well.
You and I both know that is exactly what was done. Rolling a new lock? Google will tell you how to spec it. I do not see what the problem is. Are people pissed off because they no longer have to search the web for their uber build? Or are they pissed because there are no uber builds listed as yet under the new system? People piss and moan about WOW being dumbed down and yet these are the same people using add ons and quest tracker. I suppose if its not complex enough to have to search out a walkthrough they arnt happy. Thing is most of the cry babying is coming from people who dont play the game and just troll here out of frustration.
WOW isnt great because it has 12 million players. WOW has 12 million players because its great.
Spoken like somone who has never played a Hunter, 20 points in Marks before the CAT patch and the rest in Surv, is A LOT more DPS than just picking up improved steady shot, there isn't a rational argument you can make to disprove it. Warlocks trying to cross spec will find they have a 5 to ten point deficit not a gain compared to before the recent changes.
And what useless talents are you talking about exactly, be specific if your going to talk trash. For instance, dispersion is far from good enough to be a end tree talent... yet it is still there. So I guess that does away with your getting rid of useless talents theory, what about Enhancement shaman? I mean all of their good abilities were trashed and replaced with useless ones, so where is this supposes clean up job when it comes to them?
Whenever I hear someone saying the old talent trees were too complicated and had useless talents I picture some kid throwing a fit behind his keyboard complaining about the game being too hard to figure out. Some people who like the simplicity of the new trees get offended when someone calls it for what it really is, dumbing down. Just because you like playing at the level of least common denominator doesnt mean everyone else does.
Bottom line these talent trees are foolishly easy, the choice has been reduced to what spec you want to play, and there is a huge difference between 20 points then and 10 points now. Its a reduction in flexibility, choice and an obvious talent tax.
Deflection, savage strikes, wing clip, improved feign death, trap mastery would top my list of bloat. On top of that there were a lot of talents that simply increase damage by x%
Also I never said the talent trees were to complicated. Don't lump me in with some mass of unnamed people as if I said any of those claims. If anything you suggest they were difficult by saying they are now dumbed down.
My point about the old trees and new trees is that 10 points in an off tree is about the same as the old way of spending 20. The trees are condensed now. 0/10/31 is going to be the same as 0/20/41 was. All this arm flapping about how ruined the system is or whatever is just silly. There really isn't any difficulty now or then when building a character, just less bloat. Just like there wasn't some awesome hybrid build that keeps getting referenced. You do know that each talent spec has its own built in dps boosts that increase with more talent points, stats and gear choices? Most of what you are refering to as dps boosts from a few talent points in the old system has been rolled up into the classe regardless of how points are spent in the tree.
I don't think the new system is perfect, balance or without issue, but the sky has not fallen as a result of the changes. When combined with the other changes the game will actually be more interactive and offer more challenges. Assuming the combat balance isn't as out of whack as it was when lich king released.
Spoken like somone who has never played a Hunter, 20 points in Marks before the CAT patch and the rest in Surv, is A LOT more DPS than just picking up improved steady shot, there isn't a rational argument you can make to disprove it. Warlocks trying to cross spec will find they have a 5 to ten point deficit not a gain compared to before the recent changes.
And what useless talents are you talking about exactly, be specific if your going to talk trash. For instance, dispersion is far from good enough to be a end tree talent... yet it is still there. So I guess that does away with your getting rid of useless talents theory, what about Enhancement shaman? I mean all of their good abilities were trashed and replaced with useless ones, so where is this supposes clean up job when it comes to them?
Whenever I hear someone saying the old talent trees were too complicated and had useless talents I picture some kid throwing a fit behind his keyboard complaining about the game being too hard to figure out. Some people who like the simplicity of the new trees get offended when someone calls it for what it really is, dumbing down. Just because you like playing at the level of least common denominator doesnt mean everyone else does.
Bottom line these talent trees are foolishly easy, the choice has been reduced to what spec you want to play, and there is a huge difference between 20 points then and 10 points now. Its a reduction in flexibility, choice and an obvious talent tax.
Deflection, savage strikes, wing clip, improved feign death, trap mastery would top my list of bloat. On top of that there were a lot of talents that simply increase damage by x%
Also I never said the talent trees were to complicated. Don't lump me in with some mass of unnamed people as if I said any of those claims. If anything you suggest they were difficult by saying they are now dumbed down.
My point about the old trees and new trees is that 10 points in an off tree is about the same as the old way of spending 20. The trees are condensed now. 0/10/31 is going to be the same as 0/20/41 was. All this arm flapping about how ruined the system is or whatever is just silly. There really isn't any difficulty now or then when building a character, just less bloat. Just like there wasn't some awesome hybrid build that keeps getting referenced. You do know that each talent spec has its own built in dps boosts that increase with more talent points, stats and gear choices? Most of what you are refering to as dps boosts from a few talent points in the old system has been rolled up into the classe regardless of how points are spent in the tree.
I don't think the new system is perfect, balance or without issue, but the sky has not fallen as a result of the changes. When combined with the other changes the game will actually be more interactive and offer more challenges. Assuming the combat balance isn't as out of whack as it was when lich king released.
I highlighted that part because it's important that people understand how WRONG it is. First of all their was no major change in the talents themselves, most of them are the same for the most part. They simply removed the entry level talents and made them default skills, because you are FORCED to take an entire tree before you can spend your remaining 5 to 10 points in another tree Anyway. SO this simply means you have the same talents just not the same choices. This forces Sub rogues to take thier bad end tree, and makes some of GCs bad end tree talents look better, but their still bad, Enh Shaman are still screwed, Sub rogues still have a fundamentally flawed tree, and Dispersion is still and terrible end tree talent.
The point some of you try to make is that the garbage talents were removed, but they really were not, now your just forced to take them and the X2 multiplier talents were integrated into the level gains. 20 to 25 points or so is not the same as 10 is now, because before I could opt out of taking the bad end tree talents and get to about tier 4 in another tree... like my Warlock Raiding Demo/Destro build, which is not possible now.
And if you cant understand WHY this is Bad you are not a good enough player to make an objective observation, quite frankly.
My point about the old trees and new trees is that 10 points in an off tree is about the same as the old way of spending 20. The trees are condensed now. 0/10/31 is going to be the same as 0/20/41 was.
I highlighted that part because it's important that people understand how WRONG it is. First of all their was no major change in the talents themselves, most of them are the same for the most part. They simply removed the entry level talents and made them default skills, because you are FORCED to take an entire tree before you can spend your remaining 5 to 10 points in another tree Anyway. SO this simply means you have the same talents just not the same choices. This forces Sub rogues to take thier bad end tree, and makes some of GCs bad end tree talents look better, but their still bad, Enh Shaman are still screwed, Sub rogues still have a fundamentally flawed tree, and Dispersion is still and terrible end tree talent.
The point some of you try to make is that the garbage talents were removed, but they really were not, now your just forced to take them and the X2 multiplier talents were integrated into the level gains. 20 to 25 points or so is not the same as 10 is now, because before I could opt out of taking the bad end tree talents and get to about tier 4 in another tree... like my Warlock Raiding Demo/Destro build, which is not possible now.
And if you cant understand WHY this is Bad you are not a good enough player to make an objective observation, quite frankly.
I left the part you highlighted and stand by the statement, but I suspect you are not understanding what I mean. The end result of the new talent system and the old are going to be the same in terms of effectiveness with the new system offering more power and growth as a result of the changes. You do a fair job of reinforcing that by saying how talents didn't change, bonuses are built into character progression now and you still have basically the same talents.
Perhaps I am not familiar with the premiere build for all 30 classes, but I suspect they all included something along the lines of a 41/20 build give or take a point.
Just to correct some of your misconceptions. You are not foced to take the final talent of the talent tree now, just spend 31 points in one tree (which was going to happen anyhow). You can most certainly skip any talent in a tree that you wish. Furthermore in the old system you did not need to opt out of the final talent to get to tier 4 in another tree. 0/20/41 achieved that just fine.
I think I know what you are trying to say with that last statement, but the loss of a few % with the extra 10 points in a second tree is far more than made up for with mastery and abilities granted by specializing in one tree. Many of which will also grow with gear.
Now if you want to say that people are screwed because they lost the freedom to make some "hybrid" 20/20/21 spec, then sure you are right. That spec would underachieve, but yeah that isn't possible anymore. Yes that CHOICE is gone and I agree on that point, just to be clear.
The rest of your claims I don't really agree with however.
I still don't get it. Before, everyone went to Elitist Jerks and looked up the "expected" spec for talents and specced that. There were hardly any different builds that were ACCEPTED by the community other than Elitist Jerks. To get those specs, you had to take the crap talents. All of this talk of special specs or best wierd spec is nonsense because the community determined what the best spec was the it was expected that you specced that way. Every Elemental Shaman I know has the same exact spec except for 3 points.
Freedom to choose in the former talent trees was an illusion and nothing more.
Not really I read the sight and went to Warlocks Den OFTEN but My Shadow Priest spec was the only one of its kind and I was EASILY one of the better shadows on Whirlwind, at least in PVP... Keep in mind the people on EJ thought up those builds themselves, its the same mindset as Magic the Gathering, Sure most kids are too bored or lazy to sit there and theory it out and crunch the numbers themselves, but I'm not one of those people. I remember doing swing timers on my Enh Shaman for hours and hours figuring out juuuuust the right speed for my off hand, since I was of the school of thought back then to use a FT on one hand to offset armor bonuses,.. but most people are lazy and just used two WF weapons. They are also for the most part too lazy to do theory crafting on Talent specs, that OR some people just dont like messing with it. Which I can sort of understand especially for classes like DKs which have numerous chain linking combos and strategies. People with many characters and many classes probably pick cookie cutters more often, but someone has to be doing the brain storming.
BUT that doesnt make it excusable to simplify all trees into cookie cutter trees because some people are too lazy or not intelligent enough to figure it out, again I never favor dumbing down for the least common denominator player.
No people pick cookie cutters because the community demands it. There is no freedom in picking talents at any point in WOW's recent history. Many, many raids/groups/etc will make sure you have certain specs and certain talents, that's just the way it is.
it doesn't matter how much you try and insult any player who picks a "cookie cutter" spec, it still remains: they have that spec because it was determined on a communal level that its best. The brainstorming was done and was done mainly by Elitist Jerks and they have the numbers and the data to support it. Freedom was and still is an illusion with talent choice. Maybe there was more freedom in PVP but not in PVE but maybe that is why PVP is a "broken mess".
Yeh well thats garbage, I personally know RAIDers not running cookie cutter specs doing top 10 and top 3 in gear on their servers. What you mean is because you and certain other people run to game theory sites to let them do the thinking for you that they should just take the thinking out of the game to make it easier for you.
Again Ej is a fansite who happens to run Theory Crafting, they do the same thing on many PVP sites for the game as well, they specialize in RAIDS and since thats all you care about and all you do is borrow other peoples ideas in your specs, of course you like cookie cutters. But dumbing down the game so you can have it easy and not have terrible DPS in your PUG shouldnt be the burden we all have to bear. The non thinking player should at least still be forced to run to theory crafting sites and at least do some footwork instead of dumbing the game down for the rest of us.
You are not the end all of the Community, you may however be the weakest link.
Lets go back to the way it was and those that thought the past talent system was conmplex can search the web for the best build and use it like they have done for the last 6 years. The copy paste method works best for the uber hardcore.
Philby, you realize that stating something such as this is kind of ironic? There are fewer talents, even if you take into account the glyphs and specialization. So, for those that did go through and do what you said...
...it is even easier to do that now as well.
You and I both know that is exactly what was done. Rolling a new lock? Google will tell you how to spec it. I do not see what the problem is. Are people pissed off because they no longer have to search the web for their uber build? Or are they pissed because there are no uber builds listed as yet under the new system? People piss and moan about WOW being dumbed down and yet these are the same people using add ons and quest tracker. I suppose if its not complex enough to have to search out a walkthrough they arnt happy. Thing is most of the cry babying is coming from people who dont play the game and just troll here out of frustration.
I see most of the actual complaints (not the trolling) coming from those that did not participate in the end game to the extent that others may (and that Blizzard believes they should). The changes to the trees, glyphs, et al - are making the game more an end game lobby. There is a lot of frustration right now because the changes are balanced for level 85.
Nobody is level 85. So things are out of balance. Those that only have Vanilla, are out of balance. Those that only have through Crusade, are out of balance. Those that do not purchase Cata, will be out of balance.
At level 85, through the combination of the trees, glyphs, etc - many people will be able to come pretty close to what they had. My Elemental Shaman will be closer to what I have played at level 82. My Warlock on the other hand never will. My Retadin never did much damage, but he feels slower now. Not the waiting on building up Holy, that takes no time - he just feels slower. The Death Knight does less damage even though he feels like he is playing at the same speed.
This weekend I took a Warrior from 47 to 62, and it kind of ticks me off having to wait until level 70 to get TG. That is when the realization about what Blizzard had done to the Vanilla, Crusade, and Lich King players actually hit me.
As for the builds and the specs? They are out there - the FotM Train is still running strong. Almost everything is updated already to reflect the new trees - glyphs - et al. The people that live and die by those strats are fine. Heck, what they have to do is even easier than before. The people that do not - well, they have issues...
...I think that "dumbed down" is just a term used for how Blizzard has made WoW easier overall. I'm still chuckling at the fact that my Warrior can basically heal herself - it has made leveling so much esier, doing away with the downtime and requiring me to think less about spawns that I charge into since I can spam an offensive HoT and with each mob I fell...Victory Rush!
I believe what people need to take to heart, in holding it near and dear, is to keep track of when they did something if they are looking for a sense of accomplishment. Doing something now compared to a year ago just does not mean the same thing. Getting a toon from level 1 to 60 now is nowhere near what it was when the game first came out... etc.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Comments
Actually, all M rated games are supposed to be for adults. Yes, I know, they're not usually, but they're supposed to be. Okay, okay, "17 and up" - but still, 17 is legally an adult in quite a few countries outside of the US.
Also, there are quite a few adult-only video games out there, and they've been created since gaming became a viable way to make money. Just because they're not available in the States doesn't mean they don't exist. And no, I'm not talking about those creepy Japanese games, either.
PC gaming in the 80's revolved around adults or at least people with a mature enough skillset to be able to think for themselves and problem-solve. Just play any of the old Sierra adventure games where you had to type every action out, in some cases within a few seconds of entering a scene in the game. Games became more and more targeted towards the younger audience (speaking of pc games here) not because games are "kid's toys" but because the under 18 audience tends to represent a large amount of disposable income.
ALSO: PC's became much more prevalent in the 90's, whereas in the 80's not nearly as many people had access to one, let alone the internet.
This doesn't change the fact that I'm actually agreeing with you, I just had to point out the pc gaming in the 80's and 90's was less about the kiddie and casual crowd and more about people who wanted to challenge their brains. The fact that there was no ratings system in place until the 90's does not change the fact that there have always been adult gamers
Also as a side note - I've been called "hardcore" by friends in the past, but I've never played a "complex challenging MMO" - they just don't exist. They can be tedious, they can be fun, but in the end they're mostly the same and boil down to lvl grind, quest grind, item grind, or skill grind.
I agree with most all of this. But the game in question is WOW. Rated T for Teen as most MMO's are. AOC may be M, cant remember for sure. But over and over we see posts about how the game is so easy. One guy said anybody 18+ laughs at the game. My point is that the game is made so that teens can play it. The 4 year old playing is a load of crap and we all know it, even the "adults" that would like to believe it.
WOW isnt great because it has 12 million players. WOW has 12 million players because its great.
No worries, I just get a little defensive when I see people post things I have a habit of misunderstanding. I thought you meant gaming in general was for kids. No harm, no foul, though, right?
Yes WoW is rated T as are most mmos. You are absolutely right, and thanks for clarifying.
Truth be told im not sure who games are made for. I dont know if your around any young folks but my teenage nephews all have consoles and are pretty darn good. More than once ive said, do that again lol.
WOW isnt great because it has 12 million players. WOW has 12 million players because its great.
Nowadays it seems most games are made for a younger crowd, but what I was getting at before is that it wasn't always that way.
Granted, I played Police Quest, Space Quest, LeisureSuit Larry, etc when I was a teen but I had a very good grasp on spelling which helped.
I would think the bulk of games are aimed at teens nowadays, but I don't have a clue, either.
There are certain things about Cata that I like and certain things I don't like... The things that simply made the game easier, such as showing glyphs available, or future abilities made it a lot easier to plan out what you're going to do. However. I dislike the new talent trees. Not so much for dumbing it down, however, as is it for making everybody the same. Before there were nine different types of each class, and now there are only three with the artifical limit raised to nine after you achieve mastery in one talent tree. All of these so-called useless passive talents is what makes one class unique from another hunter, even if they were part of the same tree. There were so many options even for one tree before that you had choice in every tree. Now you don't. Now you must choose abilities you don't like because you want the end result of that tree. I don't think that is fair to the players.
But I disagree with the people comparing this to the NGE of Star Wars Galaxies. This is nowhere near as bad as that. I think like with all major changes that happens to a video game, some of it is good, and some of it is bad.
True Sanity..
The restructuring of talents wasn't for the players,, It was only done to make the devs job in "balancing" classes easier.. The game now is all tanks MUST tank with the same ability.. ( threat generation).. and all healers MUST toss out the same heals per second as others, and all dps MUST toss out the same damage per second.. When you allow players to min/max and customize their toon, you are going to get inbalances and this is what the devs were dealing with.. Back in the day I used to customize my hunter to be dps/cc toon.. The ability to be strong in traps and sleep shots,, and then toss out dps inbetween was great.. Often I would run dungeons with a mage and we rocked..
The revamping of talents wasn't to improve character CUSTOMIZATION, but to limit it to a define 31 point tree.. If so many of you think crown control is BACK in the game.. Let me know when that OPTION shows up on the LFD tool.. ha ha ha.. The fact that it's NOT, proves to me exactly what the devs are thinking and wanting.. A game that used to be 99% AOE fest, and then change it to 10% optional crowd control (IF you have it in your group) is pretty much the same thing.. Changing Salisbury steak to Swiss steak isn't an upgrade, it's only a different way of giving you the same crappy cut of meat only prepared differently..
Interestingly enough, you can still choose a talent spec that gives you emphasis on traps. The only difference is that now hunters can use more than just 1 trap at a time since they are on seperate cooldowns and you do not have to sacrifice dps talents to play as some specialized hunter. Sounds like a winning situation for your playstyle if you ask me.
This change isn't going to make the game magically easier to balance. Spending points in secondary trees did not produce balance issues. Blizzard is still going to have to balance 30 different classes against each other. Nothing there has changed.
Like it or not, crowd control is coming back to the game. Since all dps classes will also be able to bring some crowd control abilities to a group there is no need to make niche classes to fill that role.
I'm not sure where you get your "facts" from, but you really do not seem to understand wow anymore.
I agree with Daff.
You have to look at the - end result - after this patch and the end result is that classes have more useful abilities than before with less points spend.
Also the "OPTIONS" in the end is seen in the playing of the class not in the number of talent points you set (some 1/5).
Now the DPS/healing is put in the technical playing style of the players and this can be seen in the so called "procs".
Simple example of in game:
I can only play "Word of Glory (a pala healing spell without using mana) IF and WHEN I do built up to 3 combo points. The same in the Retri class: I can NO longer Aoe Divine Storm, Now I need to build it and then unleash it at the perfect timing.
Aoe is hold on a leach and ... it is the player who decides where and when he lets it go and then tries to build it back up again.
So, it is not a matter of equal DPS output, it is now more then before the skills that let you excel.
Not by merely doubling the number of useful spells - keybinds - (for some classes) but also the built up and procs the player decides to play at the right time and the right place.
Clearly Rydeson lacks the on line playing experience at the moment. Every active player of the game would see this.
Clearly in your mind maybe, but not anyone rational.
Your reasoning behind the dumbing down of the talent trees is that now that the players have limited options, (and pumped up DPS) that they are defined by how they use those limited options. But then you say that you now have more options than you ever did before because your choices are better..... even though their not.
The END result is this, unbalanced PVP with less defense and much higher DPS, Spellcasting DPSers ripping people apart, harder raid content .. but since its now Eaiser to RAID it sort of balances out doesnt it? Seriously everyone is playing the same talent tree, you no longer have DR, and they got rid of other stats like spirit then turned up the knob on DPS, in other words simplified.
If it were not simply a matter of DPS output, how come the talent trees were stripped of Defensive talents, DPS talents were doubled in power and a few more added? How come hunter PVP viability was totally ignored in favor of standing in one spot building up focus? How come ranged spell caster DPS and Healing class DPS is off the charts, but classes like Enhancement Shaman are totally trashed even more than they were in WOTLK?
The END result is clear for anyone with eyes to see, dumbed down talent tree, dumbed down mechanics, PVP trashed, certain specs Trashed, all because they want to simplify the game so GC can claim some worthless victory and maybe attract the Farmville crowd to the game.
Insulting Rydeson with that childish remark doesn't mean your know what your talking about, your just acting foolish and on the defensive. His remark on the 31 point tree was spot on, all they did was revert to the Pre WOTLK system and simplify the talent trees so little Timmy and his Dad could figure it out, theres nothing the celebrate about there. This had to do more with GC enforcing his will on the game, which he had failed to do in WOTLK because everyone was making hybrids to SKIP his Terrible end tree talents, especially SUB rogues.
And yes you can still do a Trap Hunter, just not the Hybrid MM/Surv build alot of poeple were using. I cant make my old talent tree either for my old hunter and believe me I didnt have any useless talents. Im sorry but just being able to grab improved steady shot is in NO WAY comparitive to a WOTLK or BC build with 15 to 20 points to spend in another tree, NO WAY.
I have no problems with CC myself, I thought it was STUPID to get rid of it in favor of AOE ground blasting in the first place, however if simplifed mechanics, dumbed down trees and class inflexibility are the trade off, then No Thanks.
Arcane mages are the new noob class.
AB AB AB AB AB AB AB AB AB AB AB AB AB AB AB AB AB AB AB AB AB AB AB AB AB AB AB AB AB AB AB AB AB AB AB AB AB AB AB AB AB AB AB AB AB AB AB AB AB AB AB AB AB AB AB AB AB AB AB AB AB AB AB AB
20kdps ktnxbai
On icc bosses though, you sometimes have to evocate.... oh the horror.
What is dumbed down by the talent trees? It isn't like the previous talent trees took rocket science to figure out. Having a bunch of useless talents didn't make for skilled gameplay.
Also things like spirit still very much exist in the game, perhaps you meant something else like armor penitration? I don't see the problem with clearly defining what stats do or getting rid of stats thay didn't work out once they were exposed to wide gameplay.
The trap hunter for example still exists and isn't dumbed down now. More traps to manage, more abilities to use, less AE spamming, more crowd control. So what if talent points are fewer in number. The results of the talent system changes itself has are very small, but the overall combat and ability changes have made the game more engaging with more to manage and be aware of. There is so little difference between a 0/20/41 "hybird" everyone was running and 0/10/31 now. Spend skill points to max one tree then dabble a bit in another. What is so hybrid about that?
I'm sorry, but rydeson is wrong and misinformed.
On a serious note:
In Cataclysm, the way things are now in beta, if you hit an ability while the global cooldown is still counting down, the server will accept the command and hold it for you until the cooldown (on the server side) is finished. What this means is that if you have to cram as many abilities into a minute as you can, you will be able to chain them together one after another, no matter how bad your latency is. This is awesome, because right now, it doesn't always work out that way. You currently have to press a key as fast as you can and hope that the second the server starts accepting commands for your next cooldown, one of them landed. If your latency changes, or if you don't spam as fast as someone else, they could land more abilities in the same period of time.
The downside with this new ability chaining system is that if you send a command that's received half a second before the server is ready to execute your next ability, you can't change it. There are many reasons you'd want to do this, including procs, buffs, debuffs, boss mechanics or even better abilities coming off cooldown. Ghostcrawler's post indicates that Blizzard is planning on letting us change our command after it's been queued, though.
In addition, Blizzard will be implementing a new feature that lets you configure how early the server should start listening for the next command. It will eventually default to your average latency, and the closer it is to your latency, the better. Setting it high would be a perfectly fine option if we are indeed able to change our minds at the last minute; otherwise, it's better to stick to having it set at your average latency.
What this means is ... that in Cata the year long Global Cool Down mechanics we have been used to in all MMO's, will be a thing of the past.
Playing in Beta the timing and eye hand coordination became even more crucial.
Light years ahead of the old "wait for your ability" button.
See the evolution of professional game designers and then the ... (sic) dumbing down discussions on people who simply have no clue.
/signed Kalgan.
Spoken like somone who has never played a Hunter, 20 points in Marks before the CAT patch and the rest in Surv, is A LOT more DPS than just picking up improved steady shot, there isn't a rational argument you can make to disprove it. Warlocks trying to cross spec will find they have a 5 to ten point deficit not a gain compared to before the recent changes.
And what useless talents are you talking about exactly, be specific if your going to talk trash. For instance, dispersion is far from good enough to be a end tree talent... yet it is still there. So I guess that does away with your getting rid of useless talents theory, what about Enhancement shaman? I mean all of their good abilities were trashed and replaced with useless ones, so where is this supposes clean up job when it comes to them?
Whenever I hear someone saying the old talent trees were too complicated and had useless talents I picture some kid throwing a fit behind his keyboard complaining about the game being too hard to figure out. Some people who like the simplicity of the new trees get offended when someone calls it for what it really is, dumbing down. Just because you like playing at the level of least common denominator doesnt mean everyone else does.
Bottom line these talent trees are foolishly easy, the choice has been reduced to what spec you want to play, and there is a huge difference between 20 points then and 10 points now. Its a reduction in flexibility, choice and an obvious talent tax.
Fwiw, im giving wow another month for a few reasons. I know better than to take my first week impressions at face value. Im not going to walk away from my 4+ yr old priest just because i had a frustrating week. Blizzard constantl makes changes to their game so it could get better. And finally, i do in fact listen to ppl on these forums that disagree with me and sometimes even give them the benefit of the doubt heh
Lets go back to the way it was and those that thought the past talent system was conmplex can search the web for the best build and use it like they have done for the last 6 years. The copy paste method works best for the uber hardcore.
WOW isnt great because it has 12 million players. WOW has 12 million players because its great.
Having spent several days now tooling around with my guys, I think it has gone beyond dumbing down of the trees. Even taking into account the availability of some of the talents as glyphs now, the trees are not only simplistic in what they offer - but things you used to be able to take and do are simply not there.
Lost my favorite Warlock spec - it simply not a possibility. My Elemental Shaman will not be able to get insta GW until level 82. The Retadin is just as boring and slow to play. My Frost DK is slower. Two that really did not change. The Warrior that I am leveling... will not get TG until level 70 instead of 60.
This led me to the realization of what Blizzard has done here to those that did not purchase BC or those that did not purchase LK... Vanilla folks will not see end of tree. Crusade folks can see end of tree, but are stuck in one tree.
Blizzard really screwed over those that only play through 60 or through 70...
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%
Philby, you realize that stating something such as this is kind of ironic? There are fewer talents, even if you take into account the glyphs and specialization. So, for those that did go through and do what you said...
...it is even easier to do that now as well.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%
You and I both know that is exactly what was done. Rolling a new lock? Google will tell you how to spec it. I do not see what the problem is. Are people pissed off because they no longer have to search the web for their uber build? Or are they pissed because there are no uber builds listed as yet under the new system? People piss and moan about WOW being dumbed down and yet these are the same people using add ons and quest tracker. I suppose if its not complex enough to have to search out a walkthrough they arnt happy. Thing is most of the cry babying is coming from people who dont play the game and just troll here out of frustration.
WOW isnt great because it has 12 million players. WOW has 12 million players because its great.
Deflection, savage strikes, wing clip, improved feign death, trap mastery would top my list of bloat. On top of that there were a lot of talents that simply increase damage by x%
Also I never said the talent trees were to complicated. Don't lump me in with some mass of unnamed people as if I said any of those claims. If anything you suggest they were difficult by saying they are now dumbed down.
My point about the old trees and new trees is that 10 points in an off tree is about the same as the old way of spending 20. The trees are condensed now. 0/10/31 is going to be the same as 0/20/41 was. All this arm flapping about how ruined the system is or whatever is just silly. There really isn't any difficulty now or then when building a character, just less bloat. Just like there wasn't some awesome hybrid build that keeps getting referenced. You do know that each talent spec has its own built in dps boosts that increase with more talent points, stats and gear choices? Most of what you are refering to as dps boosts from a few talent points in the old system has been rolled up into the classe regardless of how points are spent in the tree.
I don't think the new system is perfect, balance or without issue, but the sky has not fallen as a result of the changes. When combined with the other changes the game will actually be more interactive and offer more challenges. Assuming the combat balance isn't as out of whack as it was when lich king released.
I highlighted that part because it's important that people understand how WRONG it is. First of all their was no major change in the talents themselves, most of them are the same for the most part. They simply removed the entry level talents and made them default skills, because you are FORCED to take an entire tree before you can spend your remaining 5 to 10 points in another tree Anyway. SO this simply means you have the same talents just not the same choices. This forces Sub rogues to take thier bad end tree, and makes some of GCs bad end tree talents look better, but their still bad, Enh Shaman are still screwed, Sub rogues still have a fundamentally flawed tree, and Dispersion is still and terrible end tree talent.
The point some of you try to make is that the garbage talents were removed, but they really were not, now your just forced to take them and the X2 multiplier talents were integrated into the level gains. 20 to 25 points or so is not the same as 10 is now, because before I could opt out of taking the bad end tree talents and get to about tier 4 in another tree... like my Warlock Raiding Demo/Destro build, which is not possible now.
And if you cant understand WHY this is Bad you are not a good enough player to make an objective observation, quite frankly.
I left the part you highlighted and stand by the statement, but I suspect you are not understanding what I mean. The end result of the new talent system and the old are going to be the same in terms of effectiveness with the new system offering more power and growth as a result of the changes. You do a fair job of reinforcing that by saying how talents didn't change, bonuses are built into character progression now and you still have basically the same talents.
Perhaps I am not familiar with the premiere build for all 30 classes, but I suspect they all included something along the lines of a 41/20 build give or take a point.
Just to correct some of your misconceptions. You are not foced to take the final talent of the talent tree now, just spend 31 points in one tree (which was going to happen anyhow). You can most certainly skip any talent in a tree that you wish. Furthermore in the old system you did not need to opt out of the final talent to get to tier 4 in another tree. 0/20/41 achieved that just fine.
I think I know what you are trying to say with that last statement, but the loss of a few % with the extra 10 points in a second tree is far more than made up for with mastery and abilities granted by specializing in one tree. Many of which will also grow with gear.
Now if you want to say that people are screwed because they lost the freedom to make some "hybrid" 20/20/21 spec, then sure you are right. That spec would underachieve, but yeah that isn't possible anymore. Yes that CHOICE is gone and I agree on that point, just to be clear.
The rest of your claims I don't really agree with however.
Not really I read the sight and went to Warlocks Den OFTEN but My Shadow Priest spec was the only one of its kind and I was EASILY one of the better shadows on Whirlwind, at least in PVP... Keep in mind the people on EJ thought up those builds themselves, its the same mindset as Magic the Gathering, Sure most kids are too bored or lazy to sit there and theory it out and crunch the numbers themselves, but I'm not one of those people. I remember doing swing timers on my Enh Shaman for hours and hours figuring out juuuuust the right speed for my off hand, since I was of the school of thought back then to use a FT on one hand to offset armor bonuses,.. but most people are lazy and just used two WF weapons. They are also for the most part too lazy to do theory crafting on Talent specs, that OR some people just dont like messing with it. Which I can sort of understand especially for classes like DKs which have numerous chain linking combos and strategies. People with many characters and many classes probably pick cookie cutters more often, but someone has to be doing the brain storming.
BUT that doesnt make it excusable to simplify all trees into cookie cutter trees because some people are too lazy or not intelligent enough to figure it out, again I never favor dumbing down for the least common denominator player.
Yeh well thats garbage, I personally know RAIDers not running cookie cutter specs doing top 10 and top 3 in gear on their servers. What you mean is because you and certain other people run to game theory sites to let them do the thinking for you that they should just take the thinking out of the game to make it easier for you.
Again Ej is a fansite who happens to run Theory Crafting, they do the same thing on many PVP sites for the game as well, they specialize in RAIDS and since thats all you care about and all you do is borrow other peoples ideas in your specs, of course you like cookie cutters. But dumbing down the game so you can have it easy and not have terrible DPS in your PUG shouldnt be the burden we all have to bear. The non thinking player should at least still be forced to run to theory crafting sites and at least do some footwork instead of dumbing the game down for the rest of us.
You are not the end all of the Community, you may however be the weakest link.
I see most of the actual complaints (not the trolling) coming from those that did not participate in the end game to the extent that others may (and that Blizzard believes they should). The changes to the trees, glyphs, et al - are making the game more an end game lobby. There is a lot of frustration right now because the changes are balanced for level 85.
Nobody is level 85. So things are out of balance. Those that only have Vanilla, are out of balance. Those that only have through Crusade, are out of balance. Those that do not purchase Cata, will be out of balance.
At level 85, through the combination of the trees, glyphs, etc - many people will be able to come pretty close to what they had. My Elemental Shaman will be closer to what I have played at level 82. My Warlock on the other hand never will. My Retadin never did much damage, but he feels slower now. Not the waiting on building up Holy, that takes no time - he just feels slower. The Death Knight does less damage even though he feels like he is playing at the same speed.
This weekend I took a Warrior from 47 to 62, and it kind of ticks me off having to wait until level 70 to get TG. That is when the realization about what Blizzard had done to the Vanilla, Crusade, and Lich King players actually hit me.
As for the builds and the specs? They are out there - the FotM Train is still running strong. Almost everything is updated already to reflect the new trees - glyphs - et al. The people that live and die by those strats are fine. Heck, what they have to do is even easier than before. The people that do not - well, they have issues...
...I think that "dumbed down" is just a term used for how Blizzard has made WoW easier overall. I'm still chuckling at the fact that my Warrior can basically heal herself - it has made leveling so much esier, doing away with the downtime and requiring me to think less about spawns that I charge into since I can spam an offensive HoT and with each mob I fell...Victory Rush!
I believe what people need to take to heart, in holding it near and dear, is to keep track of when they did something if they are looking for a sense of accomplishment. Doing something now compared to a year ago just does not mean the same thing. Getting a toon from level 1 to 60 now is nowhere near what it was when the game first came out... etc.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%