In general it is very difficult to have any form of discussion regarding WoW. You have those that are in love with the game for lack of a better term at the moment (fanboy just does not cut it). Then you have those that are secretly working away in their garages on time machines to go back in time to make sure that WoW was never launched because they hate the game so much.
In reading through much of this, would it be fair to say that the middleground appears to be around the idea that although the trees were dumbed down - the overall difficulty of the game was increased once more by the return of CC/aggro management?
Would it be possible then, to consider that perhaps the trees were handled in such a fashion so as not to overwhelm the average player? Or would these be two unrelated events that simply took place within the game? Dumbing down the character design while increasing the end game difficulty...
...because that would go well with I have been saying about WoW being a game lobby. You want simpler character design. You want a challenge.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
What I keyed in on in that little piece was the separation of the game between a social portion and a FPS portion... because in looking at WoW, it is difficult not to see that the game is mainly separated into a social portion and a game portion: Raiding/Heroics/Arena/Battlegrounds.
It is an evolved game lobby compared to sitting in a chatroom waiting for the game to launch, but in essence it is what we have.
So while some may see the change in the trees as dumbing down, for me it is not hard to see that such simplification is part of an overall goal to make the game into a game lobby. After all, that is where Blizzard's past success shined - Warcraft/Starcraft/Diablo.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
What I keyed in on in that little piece was the separation of the game between a social portion and a FPS portion... because in looking at WoW, it is difficult not to see that the game is mainly separated into a social portion and a game portion: Raiding/Heroics/Arena/Battlegrounds.
It is an evolved game lobby compared to sitting in a chatroom waiting for the game to launch, but in essence it is what we have.
So while some may see the change in the trees as dumbing down, for me it is not hard to see that such simplification is part of an overall goal to make the game into a game lobby. After all, that is where Blizzard's past success shined - Warcraft/Starcraft/Diablo.
I think my only issue with the way you are looking at it is that this game isn't just a game lobby.
It's a world as big and robust as any other MMORPG (perhaps bigger and robustier than most) with a game lobby included in it. It's not "just a game lobby." They have integrated tools in the game so that it's easier for people to enjoy group play.
What I keyed in on in that little piece was the separation of the game between a social portion and a FPS portion... because in looking at WoW, it is difficult not to see that the game is mainly separated into a social portion and a game portion: Raiding/Heroics/Arena/Battlegrounds.
It is an evolved game lobby compared to sitting in a chatroom waiting for the game to launch, but in essence it is what we have.
So while some may see the change in the trees as dumbing down, for me it is not hard to see that such simplification is part of an overall goal to make the game into a game lobby. After all, that is where Blizzard's past success shined - Warcraft/Starcraft/Diablo.
I think my only issue with the way you are looking at it is that this game isn't just a game lobby.
It's a world as big and robust as any other MMORPG (perhaps bigger and robustier than most) with a game lobby included in it. It's not "just a game lobby." They have integrated tools in the game so that it's easier for people to enjoy group play.
You see it as a negative, I see it as a positive.
The overall focus of the game is end game - the overall focus of end game is a game lobby.
In Vanilla WoW, a player experienced more of the world on their way from level 1-60 than they did with BC and much more than they did with LK. The focus was getting the characters to end game. The focus of end game is a game lobby.
Look at how quickly one can take a character from level 1-80...to end up sitting in a city while waiting for their instance to pop.
What I see as negative is the focus on the destination to sit in a game lobby as opposed to the journey there...
...and I see this change as another example of that being Blizzard's focus.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Originally posted by VirusDancer This is from earlier in the year discussing a rumor about what Blizzard's next MMO might be at Massively: http://www.massively.com/2010/01/08/rumor-blizzards-next-mmo-to-be-an-mmofps/ What I keyed in on in that little piece was the separation of the game between a social portion and a FPS portion... because in looking at WoW, it is difficult not to see that the game is mainly separated into a social portion and a game portion: Raiding/Heroics/Arena/Battlegrounds. It is an evolved game lobby compared to sitting in a chatroom waiting for the game to launch, but in essence it is what we have. So while some may see the change in the trees as dumbing down, for me it is not hard to see that such simplification is part of an overall goal to make the game into a game lobby. After all, that is where Blizzard's past success shined - Warcraft/Starcraft/Diablo.
I think my only issue with the way you are looking at it is that this game isn't just a game lobby.
It's a world as big and robust as any other MMORPG (perhaps bigger and robustier than most) with a game lobby included in it. It's not "just a game lobby." They have integrated tools in the game so that it's easier for people to enjoy group play.
You see it as a negative, I see it as a positive.
The WOW map is large, however thats the deception, the game world itself is not that big. Someone not even level 70 yet can travel through Northrend on a regular ground mount in less than an hour With a regular flying mount you can easily half that, just doing dailies, you can cover half the land mass and still make it in time for WG in less than 30 min.. which is what I did and often.
If your a raid and do dungeons and nothing else kind of player you basically townsit and wait for your group and insta port to the instance portal. You chat and if anyone actually does something fun and involving in the game like the zombie invasion on the WOTLK pre lauch you QQ and ruin it for everyone. The only fun I got towards the end was PVP town raids because I got to smite AFK scum off the planet for a little while anyway.. oh and get a free mount.
What I keyed in on in that little piece was the separation of the game between a social portion and a FPS portion... because in looking at WoW, it is difficult not to see that the game is mainly separated into a social portion and a game portion: Raiding/Heroics/Arena/Battlegrounds.
It is an evolved game lobby compared to sitting in a chatroom waiting for the game to launch, but in essence it is what we have.
So while some may see the change in the trees as dumbing down, for me it is not hard to see that such simplification is part of an overall goal to make the game into a game lobby. After all, that is where Blizzard's past success shined - Warcraft/Starcraft/Diablo.
I think my only issue with the way you are looking at it is that this game isn't just a game lobby.
It's a world as big and robust as any other MMORPG (perhaps bigger and robustier than most) with a game lobby included in it. It's not "just a game lobby." They have integrated tools in the game so that it's easier for people to enjoy group play.
You see it as a negative, I see it as a positive.
The overall focus of the game is end game - the overall focus of end game is a game lobby.
In Vanilla WoW, a player experienced more of the world on their way from level 1-60 than they did with BC and much more than they did with LK. The focus was getting the characters to end game. The focus of end game is a game lobby.
Look at how quickly one can take a character from level 1-80...to end up sitting in a city while waiting for their instance to pop.
What I see as negative is the focus on the destination to sit in a game lobby as opposed to the journey there...
...and I see this change as another example of that being Blizzard's focus.
I know a lot of people who get to 80 and re-roll toons. They dont like end game raiding. Theres way too much content between levels 1 and 80 to say the entire focus of the game are the very few and very limited end game raids that wow has to offer compared to the rest of the pre-80 game
come to think of it, I may know more people who think the focus of the game is to PvP and that endgame PvP is much more robust than its end game PvE aspect.
as for levelling up by using the LFG tool instead of questing, I guess thats one way to do it. Although, you can also quest up to level 80 and unlock achievements through this, earn mounts and titles. I guess my point is you have a very linear way of looking at this MMO and unfortunately I think many gamers think the same way.
I know a lot of people who get to 80 and re-roll toons. They dont like end game raiding. Theres way too much content between levels 1 and 80 to say the entire focus of the game are the very few and very limited end game raids that wow has to offer compared to the rest of the pre-80 game
come to think of it, I may know more people who think the focus of the game is to PvP and that endgame PvP is much more robust than its end game PvE aspect.
I stated that the end game was a combination of Raiding/Heroics/Arenas/Battlegrounds. Whether you are sitting around waiting for a PvE instance or a PvP instance, you are still sitting around in a game lobby - chatting away in the social portion while waiting for the game portion to launch.
as for levelling up by using the LFG tool instead of questing, I guess thats one way to do it. Although, you can also quest up to level 80 and unlock achievements through this, earn mounts and titles. I guess my point is you have a very linear way of looking at this MMO and unfortunately I think many gamers think the same way.
It is not a case of having a very linear way of looking at the game. It is a case of being able to recognize the focus on the linear path the game offers.
Can players go around and see the world? Of course they can. Are there achievements for them to get? Yes, they have that. Can you do most of them as level appropriate? Nope...
My intent was not to derail this discussion into something other than it was. I was simply offering another possible manner in which to look at what was done with the talent trees other than stating they were dumbed down or that they were made more efficient for the cookie cutter FoTM mentality that is being championed here.
edit: And by the way, in talking about how quick it is to level - I was not talking about using LFG. As a solo player, it is insanely quicker to level 1-60 now compared to what it was in Vanilla or even in BC....
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
I know a lot of people who get to 80 and re-roll toons. They dont like end game raiding. Theres way too much content between levels 1 and 80 to say the entire focus of the game are the very few and very limited end game raids that wow has to offer compared to the rest of the pre-80 game
come to think of it, I may know more people who think the focus of the game is to PvP and that endgame PvP is much more robust than its end game PvE aspect.
I stated that the end game was a combination of Raiding/Heroics/Arenas/Battlegrounds. Whether you are sitting around waiting for a PvE instance or a PvP instance, you are still sitting around in a game lobby - chatting away in the social portion while waiting for the game portion to launch.
as for levelling up by using the LFG tool instead of questing, I guess thats one way to do it. Although, you can also quest up to level 80 and unlock achievements through this, earn mounts and titles. I guess my point is you have a very linear way of looking at this MMO and unfortunately I think many gamers think the same way.
It is not a case of having a very linear way of looking at the game. It is a case of being able to recognize the focus on the linear path the game offers.
Can players go around and see the world? Of course they can. Are there achievements for them to get? Yes, they have that. Can you do most of them as level appropriate? Nope...
My intent was not to derail this discussion into something other than it was. I was simply offering another possible manner in which to look at what was done with the talent trees other than stating they were dumbed down or that they were made more efficient for the cookie cutter FoTM mentality that is being championed here.
edit: And by the way, in talking about how quick it is to level - I was not talking about using LFG. As a solo player, it is insanely quicker to level 1-60 now compared to what it was in Vanilla or even in BC....
But the trip from 1-85 is going to be equal or greater than 1-60 vanilla.
Of course they reduced the 1-60 trip. Every game reduces the mid-level grind when they raise the level cap.
But the trip from 1-85 is going to be equal or greater than 1-60 vanilla.
Of course they reduced the 1-60 trip. Every game reduces the mid-level grind when they raise the level cap.
The trip from 1-85 will be greater than the trip from 1-60, as they reduce the trip from 1-60 again. They already tried to sell us that lie twice with BC and LK... 60-70 would be as long - was not. 70-80 would be as long - was not.
Grind. Something tedious that one has to do to reach the end, eh? So the focus is not on... bah, nevermind. This is straying too far from the thread.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
But the trip from 1-85 is going to be equal or greater than 1-60 vanilla.
Of course they reduced the 1-60 trip. Every game reduces the mid-level grind when they raise the level cap.
The trip from 1-85 will be greater than the trip from 1-60, as they reduce the trip from 1-60 again. They already tried to sell us that lie twice with BC and LK... 60-70 would be as long - was not. 70-80 would be as long - was not.
Grind. Something tedious that one has to do to reach the end, eh? So the focus is not on... bah, nevermind. This is straying too far from the thread.
1-70 was longer than 1-60 was.
1-80 is longer than 1-60 was.
I don't know man. To me, with them completely transforming the 1-60 experience it looks like they are one of the rare MMOs that is actually trying to keep the game fresh. All MMORPGs have some grind. This one uses phasing and storyline quests to guide you through the grind. And they are getting better and better at what they do. They even make it possible to level through PvP and have a cross realm group finder to help you level in different ways.
It seems they are building and improving what they already have. Is it for everyone to enjoy? Nah. But what they are doing with Cataclysm is unprecedented and in my opinion deserves a lot of respect.
People are seriously complaining about lack of choice? There wasn't much choice before the patch to begin with. Each class has only a few cookie cutter specs to maximize their effeciency in a raid group. Unless of course you're one of those stupid, selfish asshats who roll with some god awful talent spec just for no other reason than "it's fun guyz"....and could care less if you make everyone else fail. Then by all means go ahead and spec how you want.
I was not planning to comment, but this is just plain wrong. Prior to WotLK, there was more than just a cookie cutter spec, at worst, it was a few cookie cutter specs for some classes that were very popular. The reality is that there were always optimal choices in the specs which focused on a set of talents, but there was always a degree of variability with extra points. Certain classes had several optimal specs, whether focused on one tree or hybrid builds.
The "cookie cutter" really hit the game at end-game when the player either went serious PvE or PvP. That is inevitable. Yet there was still variation among specs, for various reasons. Additionally, with patch changes & experimentation, certain players adjusted these "cookie cutter" specs or formed new ones.
Some players, like myself, it was never about cookie cutter and it was about experimenting. Prior to the 3.01 patch that killed the game for me, I was having a blast experimenting with my mage building a hybrid arcane/fire spec. I also did that somewhat with my shadow priest, rogue and lock. But that was all gone with the impending WotLK, which actually dumbed down the talent trees significantly.
On a final note, these "cookie cutters" were discovered and put together by the players, not by the developers. This does not seem to be the case with Cata. As much as the fanboys want to deny it, WoW has been on a steady dumbing down roadmap since TBC hit.
Serious dumbing down. But PVP for clothies has become much more fun so it's balanced things up a bit, if you like PVP that is and are a clothie like me.
Redoing the level 1-60 experience unprecedented? Going Rogue for CoX offered a new 1-20 experience. It did as much for level 50s in CoX as the 1-60 experience will do for level 80s in WoW...
...instead of doing something about the lack of a meaningful end game that has devolved into a case of itchy alt-itis that leads to a quickening of reaching level cap to stave off cancellations (oddly enough, another CoX thing) you redo a starting area to offer those suffering alt-itis something new to do as they once again race toward that same meaningless end game.
I was interested in Cata until they started stripping away the interesting parts.
I'm still interested in coming back to WoW for the 4.x patch this week to see what is going on with CC/aggo and even to dork around trying to figure out conversions of old builds that I used with the new tree system, but nothing about Cata as it now exists sells me on Cata... I will not be driving around to different Wal-Marts in the middle of the night looking for the one with the shortest line and the best chance of grabbing a box.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Contrary to the hype and the justification for this change, there are still plenty of useless and "filler" abilities to go around. They're just spread out more. Progression is completely screwed up. Prior to this patch, you could plan on going to your Trainer every other level and having a Talent Point to spend every level. It kind of gave you something to look forward to, even if it was a gradual building to what you want. Now, you have to constantly check to see when your next ability or Talent can be applied.
Also, being locked in to a Talent Tree until you can choose the top level Talent further displays Ghostcrawler's desire to control how you play. If you step back and look at it, that's what most of the gameplay changes are, shoehorning players so the game is easier for GC's team to manage. This was done for Blizzard, not for the players. Nice spin job, but it's just a smokescreen. Players are so busy managing the new class layouts, Blizzard is hoping you won't notice how little you're really getting when Cataclysm finally hits.
I completely agree. I have no issue with a developer changing things because a community sees things as broken and underpowered and the devs agree. But when the devs seem to action this change in a vacuum, because it makes their lives easier, it seems more of a cop out to me.
There were too many 'boring' talents padding the trees.
Now we have trees that:
Force everyone to spec the same cookie cutter builds.
Have no 'boring' talents but also far less talent points (so in effect those lost points are still being spent on the 'boring' talents', you're just not seeing it or making the choice to do so).
Essentially they didn't improve the trees, they simply standardised them to be used how everyone was already using them!
The change only really made a difference to two groups of people:
The people that didn't have a clue now no longer even have to think about it.
The people that liked to experiment with odd combinations are no longer able to.
The first group likely were never even aware they were specced 'badly' so I somehow doubt they even care. The latter group, however, are the ones now critcising the change as a part of what they found fun in the game is now gone.
I really don't see what benefit this change was supposed to have... (and yes I used a lot of bullet points for some reason.)
On a final note, these "cookie cutters" were discovered and put together by the players, not by the developers. This does not seem to be the case with Cata. As much as the fanboys want to deny it, WoW has been on a steady dumbing down roadmap since TBC hit.
The classes were far more dumbed down in vanilla. You know, before TBC hit.
This game has gotten more and more complex with every patch. They have given the classes more and more class defining abilities and gameplay has gotten more and more complex.
Redoing the level 1-60 experience unprecedented? Going Rogue for CoX offered a new 1-20 experience. It did as much for level 50s in CoX as the 1-60 experience will do for level 80s in WoW...
...instead of doing something about the lack of a meaningful end game that has devolved into a case of itchy alt-itis that leads to a quickening of reaching level cap to stave off cancellations (oddly enough, another CoX thing) you redo a starting area to offer those suffering alt-itis something new to do as they once again race toward that same meaningless end game.
I was interested in Cata until they started stripping away the interesting parts.
I'm still interested in coming back to WoW for the 4.x patch this week to see what is going on with CC/aggo and even to dork around trying to figure out conversions of old builds that I used with the new tree system, but nothing about Cata as it now exists sells me on Cata... I will not be driving around to different Wal-Marts in the middle of the night looking for the one with the shortest line and the best chance of grabbing a box.
Wow, if you can't see the difference between Cataclysm and Going Rogue then there is no point discussing anything with you.
The change only really made a difference to two groups of people:
The people that didn't have a clue now no longer even have to think about it.
The people that liked to experiment with odd combinations are no longer able to.
are these the same people that are complaining that they're forced to take PvP or non raid based talents to get to the bottom of their talent trees?
I dunno, I may be one of the few people that sees more options with the new trees than I had before. While it is true that Im taking talents that I wouldnt normally take for raiding, im now finding that I dont need a secondary spec for PvP or soloing. I can use one spec with pvp or solo talents and still be very viable in a raid. I think it depends on how you look at the changes.
The change only really made a difference to two groups of people:
The people that didn't have a clue now no longer even have to think about it.
The people that liked to experiment with odd combinations are no longer able to.
are these the same people that are complaining that they're forced to take PvP or non raid based talents to get to the bottom of their talent trees?
I dunno, I may be one of the few people that sees more options with the new trees than I had before. While it is true that Im taking talents that I wouldnt normally take for raiding, im now finding that I dont need a secondary spec for PvP or soloing. I can use one spec with pvp or solo talents and still be very viable in a raid. I think it depends on how you look at the changes.
I asked in another thread about this and wanted to ask here as well.
For the Warlock 0/41/30, what would be the spec with 4.x...? The other initial answer I got was a 0/5/31 spec. That was not listed on wowpopular, but I found it at wowwiki. The 0/41/30 spec (sometimes a 0/40/31 spec) was a common Warlock spec for new 80s that had not progressed far enough along in gear to run an Aff or a Dest spec. Would that 0/5/31 spec provide the same benefits for that undergeared new 80? Or would they be looking at a 0/31/5 spec? The most popular Warlock spec is 2/3/31...
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Wow, if you can't see the difference between Cataclysm and Going Rogue then there is no point discussing anything with you.
New "race"...? Check.
New "starting area"...? Check.
More "raid content"...? Check.
Higher "character advancement"...? Check.
New "character combinations"...? Check.
"Guild advancement"...? Already had it.
"Flying"...? Already had it.
Wait... Cataclysm has Archaeology. You've got me there. Going Rogue did not add Archaeology.
Yes, Cata added additional BGs, rated BGs, higher level zones to accomodate the 5 levels...
...GR added an alignment system.
Imagine how cool WoW would be if you could work your way from Alliance to Horde?
So uh... I think you were trying to say something...
I was referring directly to the complete overhaul of every old zone and changing every single quest in the game from 1-60. Nothing has ever been attempted on this scale in an MMORPG with an expansion.
Something on this scale has never been attempted. Period.
So uh... I think you were trying to say something...
I was referring directly to the complete overhaul of every old zone and changing every single quest in the game from 1-60. Nothing has ever been attempted on this scale in an MMORPG with an expansion.
Something on this scale has never been attempted. Period.
So uh... I think you were trying to say something...
Every single? Perhaps not every single...but LOTRO comes to mind. Even DDO changed.
Scale though, no - not the scale - the idea...again, it is Blizzard - nothing new.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
I was referring directly to the complete overhaul of every old zone and changing every single quest in the game from 1-60. Nothing has ever been attempted on this scale in an MMORPG with an expansion.
Something on this scale has never been attempted. Period.
So uh... I think you were trying to say something...
Every single? Perhaps not every single...but LOTRO comes to mind. Even DDO changed.
Scale though, no - not the scale - the idea...again, it is Blizzard - nothing new.
Yes, every single.
DDO and LotRO went F2P. Thanks for playing though.
Once again I apologize though, because the thread is about the Talent Trees. It is difficult not to go off on various related tangents, but there are many threads for those tangents and even threads for all the tangents.
edit: Even though I had one more reply on the matter after I posted this...not going to discuss that avenue further.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Comments
In general it is very difficult to have any form of discussion regarding WoW. You have those that are in love with the game for lack of a better term at the moment (fanboy just does not cut it). Then you have those that are secretly working away in their garages on time machines to go back in time to make sure that WoW was never launched because they hate the game so much.
In reading through much of this, would it be fair to say that the middleground appears to be around the idea that although the trees were dumbed down - the overall difficulty of the game was increased once more by the return of CC/aggro management?
Would it be possible then, to consider that perhaps the trees were handled in such a fashion so as not to overwhelm the average player? Or would these be two unrelated events that simply took place within the game? Dumbing down the character design while increasing the end game difficulty...
...because that would go well with I have been saying about WoW being a game lobby. You want simpler character design. You want a challenge.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%
This is from earlier in the year discussing a rumor about what Blizzard's next MMO might be at Massively:
http://www.massively.com/2010/01/08/rumor-blizzards-next-mmo-to-be-an-mmofps/
What I keyed in on in that little piece was the separation of the game between a social portion and a FPS portion... because in looking at WoW, it is difficult not to see that the game is mainly separated into a social portion and a game portion: Raiding/Heroics/Arena/Battlegrounds.
It is an evolved game lobby compared to sitting in a chatroom waiting for the game to launch, but in essence it is what we have.
So while some may see the change in the trees as dumbing down, for me it is not hard to see that such simplification is part of an overall goal to make the game into a game lobby. After all, that is where Blizzard's past success shined - Warcraft/Starcraft/Diablo.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%
I think my only issue with the way you are looking at it is that this game isn't just a game lobby.
It's a world as big and robust as any other MMORPG (perhaps bigger and robustier than most) with a game lobby included in it. It's not "just a game lobby." They have integrated tools in the game so that it's easier for people to enjoy group play.
You see it as a negative, I see it as a positive.
The overall focus of the game is end game - the overall focus of end game is a game lobby.
In Vanilla WoW, a player experienced more of the world on their way from level 1-60 than they did with BC and much more than they did with LK. The focus was getting the characters to end game. The focus of end game is a game lobby.
Look at how quickly one can take a character from level 1-80...to end up sitting in a city while waiting for their instance to pop.
What I see as negative is the focus on the destination to sit in a game lobby as opposed to the journey there...
...and I see this change as another example of that being Blizzard's focus.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%
The WOW map is large, however thats the deception, the game world itself is not that big. Someone not even level 70 yet can travel through Northrend on a regular ground mount in less than an hour With a regular flying mount you can easily half that, just doing dailies, you can cover half the land mass and still make it in time for WG in less than 30 min.. which is what I did and often.
If your a raid and do dungeons and nothing else kind of player you basically townsit and wait for your group and insta port to the instance portal. You chat and if anyone actually does something fun and involving in the game like the zombie invasion on the WOTLK pre lauch you QQ and ruin it for everyone. The only fun I got towards the end was PVP town raids because I got to smite AFK scum off the planet for a little while anyway.. oh and get a free mount.
I know a lot of people who get to 80 and re-roll toons. They dont like end game raiding. Theres way too much content between levels 1 and 80 to say the entire focus of the game are the very few and very limited end game raids that wow has to offer compared to the rest of the pre-80 game
come to think of it, I may know more people who think the focus of the game is to PvP and that endgame PvP is much more robust than its end game PvE aspect.
as for levelling up by using the LFG tool instead of questing, I guess thats one way to do it. Although, you can also quest up to level 80 and unlock achievements through this, earn mounts and titles. I guess my point is you have a very linear way of looking at this MMO and unfortunately I think many gamers think the same way.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%
But the trip from 1-85 is going to be equal or greater than 1-60 vanilla.
Of course they reduced the 1-60 trip. Every game reduces the mid-level grind when they raise the level cap.
The trip from 1-85 will be greater than the trip from 1-60, as they reduce the trip from 1-60 again. They already tried to sell us that lie twice with BC and LK... 60-70 would be as long - was not. 70-80 would be as long - was not.
Grind. Something tedious that one has to do to reach the end, eh? So the focus is not on... bah, nevermind. This is straying too far from the thread.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%
I enjoyed the irony of this statement while having a cigarette a moment ago.
Linear.
That is a very good word for what they have done with the talent trees. They have made them more...linear.
While you may argue against WoW being a very linear game...the irony of what they just did speaks volumes.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%
1-70 was longer than 1-60 was.
1-80 is longer than 1-60 was.
I don't know man. To me, with them completely transforming the 1-60 experience it looks like they are one of the rare MMOs that is actually trying to keep the game fresh. All MMORPGs have some grind. This one uses phasing and storyline quests to guide you through the grind. And they are getting better and better at what they do. They even make it possible to level through PvP and have a cross realm group finder to help you level in different ways.
It seems they are building and improving what they already have. Is it for everyone to enjoy? Nah. But what they are doing with Cataclysm is unprecedented and in my opinion deserves a lot of respect.
I was not planning to comment, but this is just plain wrong. Prior to WotLK, there was more than just a cookie cutter spec, at worst, it was a few cookie cutter specs for some classes that were very popular. The reality is that there were always optimal choices in the specs which focused on a set of talents, but there was always a degree of variability with extra points. Certain classes had several optimal specs, whether focused on one tree or hybrid builds.
The "cookie cutter" really hit the game at end-game when the player either went serious PvE or PvP. That is inevitable. Yet there was still variation among specs, for various reasons. Additionally, with patch changes & experimentation, certain players adjusted these "cookie cutter" specs or formed new ones.
Some players, like myself, it was never about cookie cutter and it was about experimenting. Prior to the 3.01 patch that killed the game for me, I was having a blast experimenting with my mage building a hybrid arcane/fire spec. I also did that somewhat with my shadow priest, rogue and lock. But that was all gone with the impending WotLK, which actually dumbed down the talent trees significantly.
On a final note, these "cookie cutters" were discovered and put together by the players, not by the developers. This does not seem to be the case with Cata. As much as the fanboys want to deny it, WoW has been on a steady dumbing down roadmap since TBC hit.
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Serious dumbing down. But PVP for clothies has become much more fun so it's balanced things up a bit, if you like PVP that is and are a clothie like me.
Redoing the level 1-60 experience unprecedented? Going Rogue for CoX offered a new 1-20 experience. It did as much for level 50s in CoX as the 1-60 experience will do for level 80s in WoW...
...instead of doing something about the lack of a meaningful end game that has devolved into a case of itchy alt-itis that leads to a quickening of reaching level cap to stave off cancellations (oddly enough, another CoX thing) you redo a starting area to offer those suffering alt-itis something new to do as they once again race toward that same meaningless end game.
I was interested in Cata until they started stripping away the interesting parts.
I'm still interested in coming back to WoW for the 4.x patch this week to see what is going on with CC/aggo and even to dork around trying to figure out conversions of old builds that I used with the new tree system, but nothing about Cata as it now exists sells me on Cata... I will not be driving around to different Wal-Marts in the middle of the night looking for the one with the shortest line and the best chance of grabbing a box.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%
I completely agree. I have no issue with a developer changing things because a community sees things as broken and underpowered and the devs agree. But when the devs seem to action this change in a vacuum, because it makes their lives easier, it seems more of a cop out to me.
I honestly think the change was pointless...
They changed it because:
Everyone specced the same cookie cutter builds.
There were too many 'boring' talents padding the trees.
Now we have trees that:
Force everyone to spec the same cookie cutter builds.
Have no 'boring' talents but also far less talent points (so in effect those lost points are still being spent on the 'boring' talents', you're just not seeing it or making the choice to do so).
Essentially they didn't improve the trees, they simply standardised them to be used how everyone was already using them!
The change only really made a difference to two groups of people:
The people that didn't have a clue now no longer even have to think about it.
The people that liked to experiment with odd combinations are no longer able to.
The first group likely were never even aware they were specced 'badly' so I somehow doubt they even care. The latter group, however, are the ones now critcising the change as a part of what they found fun in the game is now gone.
I really don't see what benefit this change was supposed to have... (and yes I used a lot of bullet points for some reason.)
The classes were far more dumbed down in vanilla. You know, before TBC hit.
This game has gotten more and more complex with every patch. They have given the classes more and more class defining abilities and gameplay has gotten more and more complex.
Here, take a look at these:
http://wowvault.ign.com/View.php?view=Talents.View.Beta&category_select_id=8
These are ridiculously simple and have terrible synergy. Just read some of them.
Wow, if you can't see the difference between Cataclysm and Going Rogue then there is no point discussing anything with you.
are these the same people that are complaining that they're forced to take PvP or non raid based talents to get to the bottom of their talent trees?
I dunno, I may be one of the few people that sees more options with the new trees than I had before. While it is true that Im taking talents that I wouldnt normally take for raiding, im now finding that I dont need a secondary spec for PvP or soloing. I can use one spec with pvp or solo talents and still be very viable in a raid. I think it depends on how you look at the changes.
New "race"...? Check.
New "starting area"...? Check.
More "raid content"...? Check.
Higher "character advancement"...? Check.
New "character combinations"...? Check.
"Guild advancement"...? Already had it.
"Flying"...? Already had it.
Wait... Cataclysm has Archaeology. You've got me there. Going Rogue did not add Archaeology.
Yes, Cata added additional BGs, rated BGs, higher level zones to accomodate the 5 levels...
...GR added an alignment system.
Imagine how cool WoW would be if you could work your way from Alliance to Horde?
So uh... I think you were trying to say something...
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%
I asked in another thread about this and wanted to ask here as well.
For the Warlock 0/41/30, what would be the spec with 4.x...? The other initial answer I got was a 0/5/31 spec. That was not listed on wowpopular, but I found it at wowwiki. The 0/41/30 spec (sometimes a 0/40/31 spec) was a common Warlock spec for new 80s that had not progressed far enough along in gear to run an Aff or a Dest spec. Would that 0/5/31 spec provide the same benefits for that undergeared new 80? Or would they be looking at a 0/31/5 spec? The most popular Warlock spec is 2/3/31...
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%
I was referring directly to the complete overhaul of every old zone and changing every single quest in the game from 1-60. Nothing has ever been attempted on this scale in an MMORPG with an expansion.
Something on this scale has never been attempted. Period.
So uh... I think you were trying to say something...
Every single? Perhaps not every single...but LOTRO comes to mind. Even DDO changed.
Scale though, no - not the scale - the idea...again, it is Blizzard - nothing new.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%
Yes, every single.
DDO and LotRO went F2P. Thanks for playing though.
Once again I apologize though, because the thread is about the Talent Trees. It is difficult not to go off on various related tangents, but there are many threads for those tangents and even threads for all the tangents.
edit: Even though I had one more reply on the matter after I posted this...not going to discuss that avenue further.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%