1. Yes, but how does that justify not adding any sand to the sandbox? A dev studio would be suicidal to not add new stuff to an MMO after launch. And the more sand you add to the box, the more alternatives you have to gameplay. It's really straightforward. It's not complicated. Why you're essentially arguing against it boggles my mind.
Adding random game features does not mean you are adding sand to the sandbox.
classic example is the prestigious classes. It greatly depends on how they implement. If they implement such that if I pick one class I can not change it and I cant use some skills I already have then you are actually removing sand from the sandbox by adding a feature.
Or like one person suggested, requiring you to select only one craft..well that is a feature but its hardly adding sand.
The best example of a highly developed feature that actually removes sand from the sandbox is poltical systems. Poltical systems are best as a sandbox when they are very simply done with chat and vent.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
1. Yes, but how does that justify not adding any sand to the sandbox? A dev studio would be suicidal to not add new stuff to an MMO after launch. And the more sand you add to the box, the more alternatives you have to gameplay. It's really straightforward. It's not complicated. Why you're essentially arguing against it boggles my mind.
Adding random game features does not mean you are adding sand to the sandbox.
classic example is the prestigious classes. It greatly depends on how they implement. If they implement such that if I pick one class I can not change it and I cant use some skills I already have then you are actually removing sand from the sandbox by adding a feature.
Or like one person suggested, requiring you to select only one craft..well that is a feature but its hardly adding sand.
The best example of a highly developed feature that actually removes sand from the sandbox is poltical systems. Poltical systems are best as a sandbox when they are very simply done with chat and vent.
I disagree partially on what you wrote. Yes you are right adding restrictions can take options away from individuals but you quoted Nizur clearly stating that he means "sand" that gives "more alternatives...to gameplay" ..
Then you mention prestige classes that probably cut you out of skills on the other hand they will give you bonusses on what skills you will use or even usique new skills (i expect them to be that way), which would adding more options if you could drop the prestige class again (and thats how they have been promised).
The part i mostly disagree with you is about alliances, they can add various alliances supporting tools and thus adding sand to the sandbox..They do already with the clan alliance chat tab. What about a "alliance shared bank", what about enter a alliance as faction on Agon creating player generated lore, what about such a alliance/faction can define kingdom with border.. You see this can be taken very far and all that would add additionally political layers with more influence on the gameplay on Atys beyond ventrilo voice comm.
-----MY-TERMS-OF-USE-------------------------------------------------- $OE - eternal enemy of online gaming -We finally WON !!!! 2011 $OE accepted that they have been fired 2005 by the playerbase and closed down ridiculous NGE !!
"There was suppression of speech and all kinds of things between disturbing and fascistic." Raph Koster (parted $OE)
1. Yes, but how does that justify not adding any sand to the sandbox? A dev studio would be suicidal to not add new stuff to an MMO after launch. And the more sand you add to the box, the more alternatives you have to gameplay. It's really straightforward. It's not complicated. Why you're essentially arguing against it boggles my mind.
Adding random game features does not mean you are adding sand to the sandbox.
classic example is the prestigious classes. It greatly depends on how they implement. If they implement such that if I pick one class I can not change it and I cant use some skills I already have then you are actually removing sand from the sandbox by adding a feature.
Or like one person suggested, requiring you to select only one craft..well that is a feature but its hardly adding sand.
The best example of a highly developed feature that actually removes sand from the sandbox is poltical systems. Poltical systems are best as a sandbox when they are very simply done with chat and vent.
I disagree partially on what you wrote. Yes you are right adding restrictions can take options away from individuals but you quoted Nizur clearly stating that he means "sand" that gives "more alternatives...to gameplay" ..
Then you mention prestige classes that probably cut you out of skills on the other hand they will give you bonusses on what skills you will use or even usique new skills (i expect them to be that way), which would adding more options if you could drop the prestige class again (and thats how they have been promised).
The part i mostly disagree with you is about alliances, they can add various alliances supporting tools and thus adding sand to the sandbox..They do already with the clan alliance chat tab. What about a "alliance shared bank", what about enter a alliance as faction on Agon creating player generated lore, what about such a alliance/faction can define kingdom with border.. You see this can be taken very far and all that would add additionally political layers with more influence on the gameplay on Atys beyond ventrilo voice comm.
here is the problem people are not considering when it comes to prestige classes. In WoW you can have many alts, in DF you have ONE unless you purchase a new acccount. If prestige classes are implemented in the way people think then WoW would actually provide players with MORE options than DF in effect WoW would be more of a sandbox than DF.
Be careful getting excited about classes that limit you.
The poster who suggested people should choose to either be a crafter or not a crafter said that doing such a feature would increase sand in the sandbox, when in reality it would do the exact opposite.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
1. Yes, but how does that justify not adding any sand to the sandbox? A dev studio would be suicidal to not add new stuff to an MMO after launch. And the more sand you add to the box, the more alternatives you have to gameplay. It's really straightforward. It's not complicated. Why you're essentially arguing against it boggles my mind.
Adding random game features does not mean you are adding sand to the sandbox.
classic example is the prestigious classes. It greatly depends on how they implement. If they implement such that if I pick one class I can not change it and I cant use some skills I already have then you are actually removing sand from the sandbox by adding a feature.
Or like one person suggested, requiring you to select only one craft..well that is a feature but its hardly adding sand.
The best example of a highly developed feature that actually removes sand from the sandbox is poltical systems. Poltical systems are best as a sandbox when they are very simply done with chat and vent.
I disagree partially on what you wrote. Yes you are right adding restrictions can take options away from individuals but you quoted Nizur clearly stating that he means "sand" that gives "more alternatives...to gameplay" ..
Then you mention prestige classes that probably cut you out of skills on the other hand they will give you bonusses on what skills you will use or even usique new skills (i expect them to be that way), which would adding more options if you could drop the prestige class again (and thats how they have been promised).
The part i mostly disagree with you is about alliances, they can add various alliances supporting tools and thus adding sand to the sandbox..They do already with the clan alliance chat tab. What about a "alliance shared bank", what about enter a alliance as faction on Agon creating player generated lore, what about such a alliance/faction can define kingdom with border.. You see this can be taken very far and all that would add additionally political layers with more influence on the gameplay on Atys beyond ventrilo voice comm.
here is the problem people are not considering when it comes to prestige classes. In WoW you can have many alts, in DF you have ONE unless you purchase a new acccount. If prestige classes are implemented in the way people think then WoW would actually provide players with MORE options than DF in effect WoW would be more of a sandbox than DF.
Be careful getting excited about classes that limit you.
The poster who suggested people should choose to either be a crafter or not a crafter said that doing such a feature would increase sand in the sandbox, when in reality it would do the exact opposite.
That's only really an issue if you're forever locked into your decision. Or if you're forced to make that decision.
Current: None Played: WoW, CoX, SWG, LotRO, EVE, AoC, VG, CO, Ryzom, DF, WAR Tried: Lineage2, Dofus, EQ2, CoS, FE, UO, Wurm, Wakfu Future: The Repopulation, ArcheAge, Black Desert, EQN
That's only really an issue if you're forever locked into your decision. Or if you're forced to make that decision.
what part of 'he suggested people have to decide to be a crafter or not a crafter' is unclear to you as not locking you into a choice?
On the classes, the absolute bottom line is this. If you want to have better skills you will have to restrict your toon to one 'class' in a game that is suppose to be classless and ADDITIONALLY, you will at that time have more freedom for skills in WoW then you would in DF because in WoW you can have alts.
think it about it deeply please.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
That's only really an issue if you're forever locked into your decision. Or if you're forced to make that decision.
what part of 'he suggested people have to decide to be a crafter or not a crafter' is unclear to you as not locking you into a choice?
On the classes, the absolute bottom line is this. If you want to have better skills you will have to restrict your toon to one 'class' in a game that is suppose to be classless and ADDITIONALLY, you will at that time have more freedom for skills in WoW then you would in DF because in WoW you can have alts.
think it about it deeply please.
Ease up. All I'm saying is some ideas like prestige classes are only bad if they lock you into your decision or you're forced to make that decision. They can easily be "fixed" if you aren't locked into them or don't have to make one.
Current: None Played: WoW, CoX, SWG, LotRO, EVE, AoC, VG, CO, Ryzom, DF, WAR Tried: Lineage2, Dofus, EQ2, CoS, FE, UO, Wurm, Wakfu Future: The Repopulation, ArcheAge, Black Desert, EQN
That's only really an issue if you're forever locked into your decision. Or if you're forced to make that decision.
what part of 'he suggested people have to decide to be a crafter or not a crafter' is unclear to you as not locking you into a choice?
On the classes, the absolute bottom line is this. If you want to have better skills you will have to restrict your toon to one 'class' in a game that is suppose to be classless and ADDITIONALLY, you will at that time have more freedom for skills in WoW then you would in DF because in WoW you can have alts.
think it about it deeply please.
Ease up. All I'm saying is some ideas like prestige classes are only bad if they lock you into your decision or you're forced to make that decision. They can easily be "fixed" if you aren't locked into them or don't have to make one.
right.
My point basically is that adding features by default doesnt always mean more sand, sometimes it means less sand. that is my main point.
What I like instead of classes is a gear approach. Gear that is focused for specific skills like magic, specific magic, melee, archery etc.
That way you have the advantage of focus as well as the advantage of being able to quickly play a different style within the same night which is what you would have with traditionally MMO's given loging in as class X.
In short, I dont like the idea of classes as the player base has been describing them. That said there really is zero information from AV themselves so a lot of assumptions are being made atm.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Nope, IRL you are forced, with "very little chance of resisting it", as you said.
You can refuse to go to school and refuse to work, but then you won't have much of a life. Just like in Darkfall.
But in DF there is more freedom than in the real world. Because IRL, if you gank noobs you can't play the game anymore (either you abide by the rules or you get killed or you go to jail); this isn't much of a choice is it?.
So looking at it this way, DF is more of a sandbox than real life.... it's just that compared to RL, DF is still laking many of the tools to play in the box.
You contradict yourself. In the first sentence you say "IRL you are forced" but in the next "You can refuse to go to school...". So which way is it? IS it you are forced or you can refuse? You have a choice, go stufy, spend some money on it, but have a greater chance at getting a good job later on. Or, dont go to school, go working right away and have less of a chance to get a really good paying job. A choice.
Nobody forced me to go to university and so I didn't. I graduated college and now work as an IT department manager in a telecom company. It was my choice, because I wanted it, not because I had to.
Why are you starting with the noob martyr complex? We all were noobs in-game at some point. My noob experience was different from yours. And others have posted their's was too. So stop making it out to be a noob vs vet perspective argument. It isn't.
As a noob, I adjusted and was fine. I can count on two hands how many times I was ganked in 6 months. What you're wanting is for the game to adjust to you instead of you adjusting to the game.
I played for 2 months with my clan in this game, in the end it wasn't the pvp that was the issue, it was the blatent hacks, non-finished game that was the issue. If there are people here attempting to recruit people into this game that alone says enough about the game. If you can't hold a descent population in your title, ummm there probably is something wrong with your title to begain with.
Pretty much sums that up nicly, let the flames continue!
You may want to try the game again. Hacks are dealt with for the most part. The game is much more stable as it was before. There is a trial.
well coming from you that actually means something, IE you have been around here as long as I have , I might just do that indeed. Still got my account. Thnx, thou if the population is still hurting that doesn't say much for it's longevity, eh I will try it again thou as I liked it for what it is, thou the issues for-mentioned ruined it, hmm... wonder how the old clan is still doing?
Heh, I may be very loud in my criticism of DF, but it is not because I totally do not like DF. Like you, I loved a lot of DF, but some mechanics of DF made it impossible for me to enjoy the game. Ever since I played DF, I've been trying to voice my opinion so that AV changes DF more like what I wanted it to be - I guess you can say it make it more "mainstream". Now that doesn't mean I want it to be WoW like, no sir. Just want it to be more accessible by other people like myself. Its like, you went to a restaurant and you ate there and the food was AWESOME, but at the end, the cook punches you in the face. Loose the punch and I will dine there everyday! (damn that cook with his heavy fists!)
Since you left for different reasons then I did, and (since I follow changes to this game on a daily basis) I believe it is safe to say that the reason you left the game no longer is valid - hacks are gone for the most part (or everyone is a hacker so nobody reports one) and the game has been improved considerably. If by "non-finished" game you mean buggy, then there are very little bugs. I only encountered cosmetic bugs.
What bogles me more is that nobody has responded to my suggestion of creating a separate PvE server with rules that cater to the much hated mainstream playerbase. With this separate PvE server, all those hardcore PvP junkies would keep their ganking rules while us, PvE junkies would have a carebear server to crawl around. This would bring additional revenue for AV and would be good for DF, right? But for some reason, everyone is ignoring that suggestion - making me think that PvP crowd just doesnt want anyone to enjoy the game. Even if it means the downfall of the game. Why? I have no clue.
Just coming back to the thread to read up on the new posts, and wanted to say that I think a PvE server seems like a pretty sound idea. I think the biggest problem with adding one would be drawing players away from the other two servers, which do have area's that already feel a bit sparse as far as population is concerned (experiences may vary). Though, aside from that, I think it'd be a great way to bring people to the game if Aventurine can determine that there's enough of an audience who would want such a thing. I'd probably make a character on a server like that, if just to see what it was like, but I have a feeling that the developers might take a more rigid stance toward such a suggestion (which, given the appropriate audience size, would be stupid).
"This is life! We suffer and slave and expire. That's it!" -Bernard Black (Dylan Moran)
I grinded goblins because I needed that crappy gear to sell for little gold to a vendor to gain enough gold to buy my next skill. You clearly show the vet perspective - what can you lose? 500 gold max? To me, 500 gold = 2-3 hours of grinding goblins, unless someone vet comes in and takes it all away from me. IM A NOOB for christsake, i can't farm 1000000 gold with a single fart, yet.
If it takes you 2-3 hours to farm 500g (as a brand new, freshly rolled character) you are doing it wrong.
A brand new player can make thousands of gold just selling the drops from the Newbie Dungeons to players who need them. These drops, despite what you may think, are in demand by vets and new players alike.
Do you bother to skin after a kill? You should be skinning every single mob, imho.The loot gained from skinning can net you thousands of gold, after a mere hour of farming.
Do you mine? Rare ores sell for 1.2k minimum and range up to 2.5k, more if you sell the ingots instead of the raw ores.This is per single ore, not a stack.
Bottom line, there are plenty of ways for a new player to make a serious profit right from the first hour they step into Agon. You just don't seem to be aware of the methods.
Im a noob, I don't know whats the most efficient way to earn money, I don't know where the best spawns are, I don't know which skills are a must and which aren't worth 100 gold, I don't know how to escape from a fight. And I never will because people gank me and I lose my stuff and any desire to continue playing because I have to do the whole grinding again.
Take the time to do some research and inform yourself? It's not a hard thing to do, you figured out how to use your browser to navigate to this website, I'm sure you can figure out how to use it in order to find pertinent information you lack, regarding the game in question.
Being a noob is completely irrelevant, you could have helped yourself at anytime, you chose not to.
Ok, dungeons went in when I played DF, but still, is there a vendor where I can sell my loot right away? or is it "WTS <item>, PST" and then wait 2-3 hours for a response? If I am doing something wrong, its because im a noob. Yes I skin, yes I mine, never got any rare ores, not sure if I can even recognize which ore is rare. Yes, lots of ways to earn money, if I knew how. Thnx for the tips.
being a noob is NOT irrelevant. I dont want to read e-books "EARN 100000 gold in a day". I want to learn that myself. I don't know why you play the game, but I play for the challenges it presents, not to get to max level fastest way possible.
I want to be ambushed by 2 guys and win the game due to MY skills, not my character skills.
Then you are playing the wrong game.
Because character progression is at the core of RPG games (DF is an mmoRPG). If you want to remove the character progression , FPS games is what you are looking for.
... and a MMOFPS is what he very obviously wants it to be. There's no way around it. He wants AV to take the MMORPG they've spent 8+ years working on and change it into a MMOFPS to suit him.
I think I'll go stand in Burger King and complain that they don't sell more Pizza. I mean just because the establishment is focused primarily on hamburgers and has "Burger" in its name, why should I as a customer be shunned? Why should I be forced to eat hamburgers if I really want pizza? And, no, I don't want to go to a restaurant that specializes in Pizza. If I want to go to Burger King and have Pizza, then they should cater to what I want. I *am* the customer after all. There are thousands of people out there who agree with me, but Burger King doesn't listen to its customers and this is why they're not more successful. If they'd listen to anonymous people telling them to change their business model to something completely different than what they're built on, their business would explode.
And don't tell me Burger King is doing fine with their current menu, because that's just stupid. I mean, they're a business, and businesses are in business to make money. It seems like poor business to me to limit your customers by not offering more of what they might want, like pizza. Burger King is doing it all wrong and they need someone (like me) to set them straight so they can be more successful.
For the N-th time, I DONT want DF to become MMOFPS. Do you even know what FPS means? First Person SHOOTER. I don't want shooting to be in DF, other then archery and magic, if you even consider those elements shooters. Geeze people, will you stop with the "You want FPS, i know better because I said so".
Ok, dungeons went in when I played DF, but still, is there a vendor where I can sell my loot right away? or is it "WTS , PST" and then wait 2-3 hours for a response? If I am doing something wrong, its because im a noob. Yes I skin, yes I mine, never got any rare ores, not sure if I can even recognize which ore is rare. Yes, lots of ways to earn money, if I knew how. Thnx for the tips.
being a noob is NOT irrelevant. I dont want to read e-books "EARN 100000 gold in a day". I want to learn that myself. I don't know why you play the game, but I play for the challenges it presents, not to get to max level fastest way possible.
You must have stopped playing before they put rare ore drops on regular iron nodes because the rare ones have very noticeable colour differences. Either that or you mined for too short a period of time to get any. They drop sort of like steedgrass does when you're herb gathering.
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
Again, I don't think anyone here really disagrees with the thrust of what this guy is saying. I don't. There is a grind in the game, clearly (nearly all MMOs have a grind), but the debate is over how big of a grind it really is and how much faster (if any) character progression should be made. If it's too fast, then you'll effectively reach "end game" quickly and there's nothing left to really pursue after a while. PvPing for shits and giggles will get old after a while. Capturing and defending towns will get old after a while if there's no reason or purpose behind any of it. Like I said before, if there's not enough sand in the sandbox, PvPing for PvP's sake will become tedious and will be no different than an MMOFPS.
I think what most of us that have been posting agree on is we don't want it to become an MMOFPS with no progression, no sense of achievement, danger or excitement. If PvP was strictly consensual and tiered then a big chunk of the free-for-all PvP would be gone. Where's the sense of danger or excitement if you know you're never really in danger? There's no risk!
EDIT: I don't pretend to be the spokesperson for others. If you agree or disagree with what I said, please speak up! It's where I'm coming from and where I think several others are too.
What I have been trying to point out and failing so far is that the core of DF problems that prevent me from enjoying the game NOT the grind alone, but how one player can dictate his own will towards another. One griefer can and DOES make other players stop playing the game. You CAN try and fix it by decreasing the grind so that new players reach competetive levels fast enough to move beyond the "easy kill" range of those said griefers. But thats not the only way to fix it, nor is it the best way. As many of you pointed out, lack of grind makes character progression weaker. Its not fun to max out your char in 1 day, I agree with that.
So, you can leave the grind where it is now, as long as you can fix the griefing part some other way. That can be by tiered PvP (vets cannot attack noobs) - but hey, people shout "Its not sanbox!". You can try and make it that vets get no benefits at all from killing noobs. Right now farming noobs is the BEST and FASTEST way to solve your red status problem. Would you rather go PvP equals with a 1 kill per hour and a chance of losing or get 10 kills per hour killing noobs with virtually no risk to you? Still not sandbox enough. People don't realise that too much sandbox for one person means no sandbox for another - if I can't play the game how I want it because there is a griefer outside waiting for me - is that sandbox? I can move to another city, but isn't that the same as tiering PvP? Except that tiered PvP is a hard restriction (the game itself does not allow you to do something) while being farmed is a soft restriction - I am at the mercy of someone potentially 40 year old virgin vampire zombie dungeon dweller whos only means of showing his provess is by beating up noobs in a virtual world.
I disagree partially on what you wrote. Yes you are right adding restrictions can take options away from individuals but you quoted Nizur clearly stating that he means "sand" that gives "more alternatives...to gameplay" ..
Then you mention prestige classes that probably cut you out of skills on the other hand they will give you bonusses on what skills you will use or even usique new skills (i expect them to be that way), which would adding more options if you could drop the prestige class again (and thats how they have been promised).
The part i mostly disagree with you is about alliances, they can add various alliances supporting tools and thus adding sand to the sandbox..They do already with the clan alliance chat tab. What about a "alliance shared bank", what about enter a alliance as faction on Agon creating player generated lore, what about such a alliance/faction can define kingdom with border.. You see this can be taken very far and all that would add additionally political layers with more influence on the gameplay on Atys beyond ventrilo voice comm.
Strangely I agree with your disagreeement. All of the things you mentioned (especially in the last pargraph) would add a large chunk of sand to the game. Are those things in the process of being implemented or just in the planning phase?
That's only really an issue if you're forever locked into your decision. Or if you're forced to make that decision.
what part of 'he suggested people have to decide to be a crafter or not a crafter' is unclear to you as not locking you into a choice?
On the classes, the absolute bottom line is this. If you want to have better skills you will have to restrict your toon to one 'class' in a game that is suppose to be classless and ADDITIONALLY, you will at that time have more freedom for skills in WoW then you would in DF because in WoW you can have alts.
think it about it deeply please.
Ease up. All I'm saying is some ideas like prestige classes are only bad if they lock you into your decision or you're forced to make that decision. They can easily be "fixed" if you aren't locked into them or don't have to make one.
Would a prestige class be like an advanced version of a normal class? Or just an alternative? Because, for example, in WoW - the death knight is called a hero class, but there is not much difference between that class and a regular class like warrior or paladin. Its just called a hero class. I don't know why, its kinda confusing.
Why are you starting with the noob martyr complex? We all were noobs in-game at some point. My noob experience was different from yours. And others have posted their's was too. So stop making it out to be a noob vs vet perspective argument. It isn't.
As a noob, I adjusted and was fine. I can count on two hands how many times I was ganked in 6 months. What you're wanting is for the game to adjust to you instead of you adjusting to the game.
When did you start playing?
November, last year.
Was it NA server?
Yes. I think I started right before you did. I remember answering some of your questions when you first started out.
Current: None Played: WoW, CoX, SWG, LotRO, EVE, AoC, VG, CO, Ryzom, DF, WAR Tried: Lineage2, Dofus, EQ2, CoS, FE, UO, Wurm, Wakfu Future: The Repopulation, ArcheAge, Black Desert, EQN
Again, I don't think anyone here really disagrees with the thrust of what this guy is saying. I don't. There is a grind in the game, clearly (nearly all MMOs have a grind), but the debate is over how big of a grind it really is and how much faster (if any) character progression should be made. If it's too fast, then you'll effectively reach "end game" quickly and there's nothing left to really pursue after a while. PvPing for shits and giggles will get old after a while. Capturing and defending towns will get old after a while if there's no reason or purpose behind any of it. Like I said before, if there's not enough sand in the sandbox, PvPing for PvP's sake will become tedious and will be no different than an MMOFPS.
I think what most of us that have been posting agree on is we don't want it to become an MMOFPS with no progression, no sense of achievement, danger or excitement. If PvP was strictly consensual and tiered then a big chunk of the free-for-all PvP would be gone. Where's the sense of danger or excitement if you know you're never really in danger? There's no risk!
EDIT: I don't pretend to be the spokesperson for others. If you agree or disagree with what I said, please speak up! It's where I'm coming from and where I think several others are too.
What I have been trying to point out and failing so far is that the core of DF problems that prevent me from enjoying the game NOT the grind alone, but how one player can dictate his own will towards another. One griefer can and DOES make other players stop playing the game. You CAN try and fix it by decreasing the grind so that new players reach competetive levels fast enough to move beyond the "easy kill" range of those said griefers. But thats not the only way to fix it, nor is it the best way. As many of you pointed out, lack of grind makes character progression weaker. Its not fun to max out your char in 1 day, I agree with that.
So, you can leave the grind where it is now, as long as you can fix the griefing part some other way. That can be by tiered PvP (vets cannot attack noobs) - but hey, people shout "Its not sanbox!". You can try and make it that vets get no benefits at all from killing noobs. Right now farming noobs is the BEST and FASTEST way to solve your red status problem. Would you rather go PvP equals with a 1 kill per hour and a chance of losing or get 10 kills per hour killing noobs with virtually no risk to you? Still not sandbox enough. People don't realise that too much sandbox for one person means no sandbox for another - if I can't play the game how I want it because there is a griefer outside waiting for me - is that sandbox? I can move to another city, but isn't that the same as tiering PvP? Except that tiered PvP is a hard restriction (the game itself does not allow you to do something) while being farmed is a soft restriction - I am at the mercy of someone potentially 40 year old virgin vampire zombie dungeon dweller whos only means of showing his provess is by beating up noobs in a virtual world.
One of the great ways UO made murdering other players less attractive was by adding a slow, eventual degredation to their kill count. Basically, every kill count took something like 8 hours to disappear, and it took five kills of innocent players to become red, or a "murderer" (40 hours of game time to degrade). Not only did it present a consequence for murdering other players (having to work off kill counts by staying in-game, not allowed in protected towns, slight skill loss upon death) but it also allows that murderer to do whatever they wanted in the world during the time they need to degrade those counts, because regardless of their activities, their status will persist until they're under the amount of murder counts necessary for the status effect. So, effectively, if a red wanted to become "blue", or innocent, they simply had to find an activity that drew their attention long enough to work off the counts (dungeon crawling, guild PvP, macroing/raising skills), rather than forcing them to kill new players for the most effective reduction from their red status.
"This is life! We suffer and slave and expire. That's it!" -Bernard Black (Dylan Moran)
That's only really an issue if you're forever locked into your decision. Or if you're forced to make that decision.
what part of 'he suggested people have to decide to be a crafter or not a crafter' is unclear to you as not locking you into a choice?
On the classes, the absolute bottom line is this. If you want to have better skills you will have to restrict your toon to one 'class' in a game that is suppose to be classless and ADDITIONALLY, you will at that time have more freedom for skills in WoW then you would in DF because in WoW you can have alts.
think it about it deeply please.
Ease up. All I'm saying is some ideas like prestige classes are only bad if they lock you into your decision or you're forced to make that decision. They can easily be "fixed" if you aren't locked into them or don't have to make one.
Would a prestige class be like an advanced version of a normal class? Or just an alternative? Because, for example, in WoW - the death knight is called a hero class, but there is not much difference between that class and a regular class like warrior or paladin. Its just called a hero class. I don't know why, its kinda confusing.
No idea, there's not much solid information on prestige classes. Maybe someone else knows more information on them?
Current: None Played: WoW, CoX, SWG, LotRO, EVE, AoC, VG, CO, Ryzom, DF, WAR Tried: Lineage2, Dofus, EQ2, CoS, FE, UO, Wurm, Wakfu Future: The Repopulation, ArcheAge, Black Desert, EQN
I would suggest two different things depending on what type of player you are.
1) If you are OK with grinding a bit and with most everyone being a hybrid, you should give Darkfall a shot now. There is a free trial, and there are tons of players who are willing to help.
2) If you are NOT ok with grinding and everyone being a hybrid, wait until the Darkfall 2010 expansion. Prestige classes and some other majors changes should go into that.
Overall, there IS a free trial. Unfortunately, the Darkfall devs do not believe in hand holding and getting started can be hard. FORTUNATELY, there are lots of players who will help.
I really encourage EVERYONE to make a free trial account and look me up on the NA servers. I'm usually semi-afk during work hours Mon-Fri and can log on most evenings. You do "/tell Uzik ibnYaraq Hi" (without quotes) can that will send me a message.
Also, feel free to send me a message on these forums and I will be glad to setup some time to show you around Agon.
Why are you starting with the noob martyr complex? We all were noobs in-game at some point. My noob experience was different from yours. And others have posted their's was too. So stop making it out to be a noob vs vet perspective argument. It isn't.
As a noob, I adjusted and was fine. I can count on two hands how many times I was ganked in 6 months. What you're wanting is for the game to adjust to you instead of you adjusting to the game.
When did you start playing?
November, last year.
Was it NA server?
Yes. I think I started right before you did. I remember answering some of your questions when you first started out.
I started in summer 2010. according to wiki, NA server was up on July 13, 2009. That means that when you joined, NA server was 5 months old. When I joined, it was a year old. Perhaps that is why you haven't encountered that much griefing. In your time, people were busy macroing and raising skills. Hence the griefing wasn't that bad. The more time goes, the more vets it holds, the harder it is for noobs.
Or maybe you simply got lucky. Or maybe you don't mind when someone wipes the floor with you.
Its like if you were using Microsoft windows and you never got hacked, but other person did - does that other person have the right to claim Microsoft windows is full of security holes? The fact is, FFA PvP with no restrictions promotes griefing. You CAN live through this without ever being griefed, but the problem will not become null because one or two people never got griefed.
I understand that people have tolerance towards griefing - for some, the current level of griefing is OK. But, you gotta look at the biger picture, would less griefing be that bad for DF? It wouldn't make it more WoW, it wouldn't turn it into an FPS, it would make it more accessible by people who have lower tolerance for griefing.
One of the great ways UO made murdering other players less attractive was by adding a slow, eventual degredation to their kill count. Basically, every kill count took something like 8 hours to disappear, and it took five kills of innocent players to become red, or a "murderer" (40 hours of game time to degrade). Not only did it present a consequence for murdering other players (having to work off kill counts by staying in-game, not allowed in protected towns, slight skill loss upon death) but it also allows that murderer to do whatever they wanted in the world during the time they need to degrade those counts, because regardless of their activities, their status will persist until they're under the amount of murder counts necessary for the status effect. So, effectively, if a red wanted to become "blue", or innocent, they simply had to find an activity that drew their attention long enough to work off the counts (dungeon crawling, guild PvP, macroing/raising skills), rather than forcing them to kill new players for the most effective reduction from their red status.
I played UO, but I never did griefing so I can;t say how good or bad the system was. However, this does sound better then what DF currently has in place. Not as good as a system I was hoping for, but better then no change at all.
One of the great ways UO made murdering other players less attractive was by adding a slow, eventual degredation to their kill count. Basically, every kill count took something like 8 hours to disappear, and it took five kills of innocent players to become red, or a "murderer" (40 hours of game time to degrade). Not only did it present a consequence for murdering other players (having to work off kill counts by staying in-game, not allowed in protected towns, slight skill loss upon death) but it also allows that murderer to do whatever they wanted in the world during the time they need to degrade those counts, because regardless of their activities, their status will persist until they're under the amount of murder counts necessary for the status effect. So, effectively, if a red wanted to become "blue", or innocent, they simply had to find an activity that drew their attention long enough to work off the counts (dungeon crawling, guild PvP, macroing/raising skills), rather than forcing them to kill new players for the most effective reduction from their red status.
I played UO, but I never did griefing so I can;t say how good or bad the system was. However, this does sound better then what DF currently has in place. Not as good as a system I was hoping for, but better then no change at all.
I see nothing wrong with the current system. It just needs one little tweak. That you are only able to gain alignment from the same person killed once/day. This limits farming a single player to increase alignment. That way if you are red, you have to kill a lot of different racial enemies to get blue again.
Darkfall will most likely be Massively.com's next "Choose My Adventure". It has a very high lead and come the 9th we will know the final results. I have an account but I have not played in a few months so I am going to resub and join in on the fun. If you ladies and gentlemen want to check that out or do not know what "Choose My Adventure" is then go to Massively.com and scroll down a couple pages until you see the article, vote too if you want. I used to downright loathe the UI but you do get used to it to where it is not an issue, but there will be a new UI when the "Darkfall2010" patch hits. I was once a troll and hater when this game came out and now, it's noo too bad actually.
Comments
Adding random game features does not mean you are adding sand to the sandbox.
classic example is the prestigious classes. It greatly depends on how they implement. If they implement such that if I pick one class I can not change it and I cant use some skills I already have then you are actually removing sand from the sandbox by adding a feature.
Or like one person suggested, requiring you to select only one craft..well that is a feature but its hardly adding sand.
The best example of a highly developed feature that actually removes sand from the sandbox is poltical systems. Poltical systems are best as a sandbox when they are very simply done with chat and vent.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
I disagree partially on what you wrote. Yes you are right adding restrictions can take options away from individuals but you quoted Nizur clearly stating that he means "sand" that gives "more alternatives...to gameplay" ..
Then you mention prestige classes that probably cut you out of skills on the other hand they will give you bonusses on what skills you will use or even usique new skills (i expect them to be that way), which would adding more options if you could drop the prestige class again (and thats how they have been promised).
The part i mostly disagree with you is about alliances, they can add various alliances supporting tools and thus adding sand to the sandbox..They do already with the clan alliance chat tab. What about a "alliance shared bank", what about enter a alliance as faction on Agon creating player generated lore, what about such a alliance/faction can define kingdom with border.. You see this can be taken very far and all that would add additionally political layers with more influence on the gameplay on Atys beyond ventrilo voice comm.
-----MY-TERMS-OF-USE--------------------------------------------------
$OE - eternal enemy of online gaming
-We finally WON !!!! 2011 $OE accepted that they have been fired 2005 by the playerbase and closed down ridiculous NGE !!
"There was suppression of speech and all kinds of things between disturbing and fascistic." Raph Koster (parted $OE)
here is the problem people are not considering when it comes to prestige classes. In WoW you can have many alts, in DF you have ONE unless you purchase a new acccount. If prestige classes are implemented in the way people think then WoW would actually provide players with MORE options than DF in effect WoW would be more of a sandbox than DF.
Be careful getting excited about classes that limit you.
The poster who suggested people should choose to either be a crafter or not a crafter said that doing such a feature would increase sand in the sandbox, when in reality it would do the exact opposite.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
That's only really an issue if you're forever locked into your decision. Or if you're forced to make that decision.
Current: None
Played: WoW, CoX, SWG, LotRO, EVE, AoC, VG, CO, Ryzom, DF, WAR
Tried: Lineage2, Dofus, EQ2, CoS, FE, UO, Wurm, Wakfu
Future: The Repopulation, ArcheAge, Black Desert, EQN
what part of 'he suggested people have to decide to be a crafter or not a crafter' is unclear to you as not locking you into a choice?
On the classes, the absolute bottom line is this. If you want to have better skills you will have to restrict your toon to one 'class' in a game that is suppose to be classless and ADDITIONALLY, you will at that time have more freedom for skills in WoW then you would in DF because in WoW you can have alts.
think it about it deeply please.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
Ease up. All I'm saying is some ideas like prestige classes are only bad if they lock you into your decision or you're forced to make that decision. They can easily be "fixed" if you aren't locked into them or don't have to make one.
Current: None
Played: WoW, CoX, SWG, LotRO, EVE, AoC, VG, CO, Ryzom, DF, WAR
Tried: Lineage2, Dofus, EQ2, CoS, FE, UO, Wurm, Wakfu
Future: The Repopulation, ArcheAge, Black Desert, EQN
right.
My point basically is that adding features by default doesnt always mean more sand, sometimes it means less sand. that is my main point.
What I like instead of classes is a gear approach. Gear that is focused for specific skills like magic, specific magic, melee, archery etc.
That way you have the advantage of focus as well as the advantage of being able to quickly play a different style within the same night which is what you would have with traditionally MMO's given loging in as class X.
In short, I dont like the idea of classes as the player base has been describing them. That said there really is zero information from AV themselves so a lot of assumptions are being made atm.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
You contradict yourself. In the first sentence you say "IRL you are forced" but in the next "You can refuse to go to school...". So which way is it? IS it you are forced or you can refuse? You have a choice, go stufy, spend some money on it, but have a greater chance at getting a good job later on. Or, dont go to school, go working right away and have less of a chance to get a really good paying job. A choice.
Nobody forced me to go to university and so I didn't. I graduated college and now work as an IT department manager in a telecom company. It was my choice, because I wanted it, not because I had to.
I am the type of player where I like to do everything and anything from time to time.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor - pre-WW2 genocide.
Was it NA server?
I am the type of player where I like to do everything and anything from time to time.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor - pre-WW2 genocide.
Heh, I may be very loud in my criticism of DF, but it is not because I totally do not like DF. Like you, I loved a lot of DF, but some mechanics of DF made it impossible for me to enjoy the game. Ever since I played DF, I've been trying to voice my opinion so that AV changes DF more like what I wanted it to be - I guess you can say it make it more "mainstream". Now that doesn't mean I want it to be WoW like, no sir. Just want it to be more accessible by other people like myself. Its like, you went to a restaurant and you ate there and the food was AWESOME, but at the end, the cook punches you in the face. Loose the punch and I will dine there everyday! (damn that cook with his heavy fists!)
Since you left for different reasons then I did, and (since I follow changes to this game on a daily basis) I believe it is safe to say that the reason you left the game no longer is valid - hacks are gone for the most part (or everyone is a hacker so nobody reports one) and the game has been improved considerably. If by "non-finished" game you mean buggy, then there are very little bugs. I only encountered cosmetic bugs.
Good luck!
I am the type of player where I like to do everything and anything from time to time.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor - pre-WW2 genocide.
Just coming back to the thread to read up on the new posts, and wanted to say that I think a PvE server seems like a pretty sound idea. I think the biggest problem with adding one would be drawing players away from the other two servers, which do have area's that already feel a bit sparse as far as population is concerned (experiences may vary). Though, aside from that, I think it'd be a great way to bring people to the game if Aventurine can determine that there's enough of an audience who would want such a thing. I'd probably make a character on a server like that, if just to see what it was like, but I have a feeling that the developers might take a more rigid stance toward such a suggestion (which, given the appropriate audience size, would be stupid).
"This is life! We suffer and slave and expire. That's it!" -Bernard Black (Dylan Moran)
Ok, dungeons went in when I played DF, but still, is there a vendor where I can sell my loot right away? or is it "WTS <item>, PST" and then wait 2-3 hours for a response? If I am doing something wrong, its because im a noob. Yes I skin, yes I mine, never got any rare ores, not sure if I can even recognize which ore is rare. Yes, lots of ways to earn money, if I knew how. Thnx for the tips.
being a noob is NOT irrelevant. I dont want to read e-books "EARN 100000 gold in a day". I want to learn that myself. I don't know why you play the game, but I play for the challenges it presents, not to get to max level fastest way possible.
I am the type of player where I like to do everything and anything from time to time.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor - pre-WW2 genocide.
For the N-th time, I DONT want DF to become MMOFPS. Do you even know what FPS means? First Person SHOOTER. I don't want shooting to be in DF, other then archery and magic, if you even consider those elements shooters. Geeze people, will you stop with the "You want FPS, i know better because I said so".
I am the type of player where I like to do everything and anything from time to time.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor - pre-WW2 genocide.
You must have stopped playing before they put rare ore drops on regular iron nodes because the rare ones have very noticeable colour differences. Either that or you mined for too short a period of time to get any. They drop sort of like steedgrass does when you're herb gathering.
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
What I have been trying to point out and failing so far is that the core of DF problems that prevent me from enjoying the game NOT the grind alone, but how one player can dictate his own will towards another. One griefer can and DOES make other players stop playing the game. You CAN try and fix it by decreasing the grind so that new players reach competetive levels fast enough to move beyond the "easy kill" range of those said griefers. But thats not the only way to fix it, nor is it the best way. As many of you pointed out, lack of grind makes character progression weaker. Its not fun to max out your char in 1 day, I agree with that.
So, you can leave the grind where it is now, as long as you can fix the griefing part some other way. That can be by tiered PvP (vets cannot attack noobs) - but hey, people shout "Its not sanbox!". You can try and make it that vets get no benefits at all from killing noobs. Right now farming noobs is the BEST and FASTEST way to solve your red status problem. Would you rather go PvP equals with a 1 kill per hour and a chance of losing or get 10 kills per hour killing noobs with virtually no risk to you? Still not sandbox enough. People don't realise that too much sandbox for one person means no sandbox for another - if I can't play the game how I want it because there is a griefer outside waiting for me - is that sandbox? I can move to another city, but isn't that the same as tiering PvP? Except that tiered PvP is a hard restriction (the game itself does not allow you to do something) while being farmed is a soft restriction - I am at the mercy of someone potentially 40 year old virgin vampire zombie dungeon dweller whos only means of showing his provess is by beating up noobs in a virtual world.
I am the type of player where I like to do everything and anything from time to time.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor - pre-WW2 genocide.
Strangely I agree with your disagreeement. All of the things you mentioned (especially in the last pargraph) would add a large chunk of sand to the game. Are those things in the process of being implemented or just in the planning phase?
I am the type of player where I like to do everything and anything from time to time.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor - pre-WW2 genocide.
Would a prestige class be like an advanced version of a normal class? Or just an alternative? Because, for example, in WoW - the death knight is called a hero class, but there is not much difference between that class and a regular class like warrior or paladin. Its just called a hero class. I don't know why, its kinda confusing.
I am the type of player where I like to do everything and anything from time to time.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor - pre-WW2 genocide.
Yes. I think I started right before you did. I remember answering some of your questions when you first started out.
Current: None
Played: WoW, CoX, SWG, LotRO, EVE, AoC, VG, CO, Ryzom, DF, WAR
Tried: Lineage2, Dofus, EQ2, CoS, FE, UO, Wurm, Wakfu
Future: The Repopulation, ArcheAge, Black Desert, EQN
One of the great ways UO made murdering other players less attractive was by adding a slow, eventual degredation to their kill count. Basically, every kill count took something like 8 hours to disappear, and it took five kills of innocent players to become red, or a "murderer" (40 hours of game time to degrade). Not only did it present a consequence for murdering other players (having to work off kill counts by staying in-game, not allowed in protected towns, slight skill loss upon death) but it also allows that murderer to do whatever they wanted in the world during the time they need to degrade those counts, because regardless of their activities, their status will persist until they're under the amount of murder counts necessary for the status effect. So, effectively, if a red wanted to become "blue", or innocent, they simply had to find an activity that drew their attention long enough to work off the counts (dungeon crawling, guild PvP, macroing/raising skills), rather than forcing them to kill new players for the most effective reduction from their red status.
"This is life! We suffer and slave and expire. That's it!" -Bernard Black (Dylan Moran)
No idea, there's not much solid information on prestige classes. Maybe someone else knows more information on them?
Current: None
Played: WoW, CoX, SWG, LotRO, EVE, AoC, VG, CO, Ryzom, DF, WAR
Tried: Lineage2, Dofus, EQ2, CoS, FE, UO, Wurm, Wakfu
Future: The Repopulation, ArcheAge, Black Desert, EQN
I would suggest two different things depending on what type of player you are.
1) If you are OK with grinding a bit and with most everyone being a hybrid, you should give Darkfall a shot now. There is a free trial, and there are tons of players who are willing to help.
2) If you are NOT ok with grinding and everyone being a hybrid, wait until the Darkfall 2010 expansion. Prestige classes and some other majors changes should go into that.
Overall, there IS a free trial. Unfortunately, the Darkfall devs do not believe in hand holding and getting started can be hard. FORTUNATELY, there are lots of players who will help.
I really encourage EVERYONE to make a free trial account and look me up on the NA servers. I'm usually semi-afk during work hours Mon-Fri and can log on most evenings. You do "/tell Uzik ibnYaraq Hi" (without quotes) can that will send me a message.
Also, feel free to send me a message on these forums and I will be glad to setup some time to show you around Agon.
(Uzik ibnYaraq in game. Always willing to help.)
http://www.youtube.com/user/UzikAlJhamin
I started in summer 2010. according to wiki, NA server was up on July 13, 2009. That means that when you joined, NA server was 5 months old. When I joined, it was a year old. Perhaps that is why you haven't encountered that much griefing. In your time, people were busy macroing and raising skills. Hence the griefing wasn't that bad. The more time goes, the more vets it holds, the harder it is for noobs.
Or maybe you simply got lucky. Or maybe you don't mind when someone wipes the floor with you.
Its like if you were using Microsoft windows and you never got hacked, but other person did - does that other person have the right to claim Microsoft windows is full of security holes? The fact is, FFA PvP with no restrictions promotes griefing. You CAN live through this without ever being griefed, but the problem will not become null because one or two people never got griefed.
I understand that people have tolerance towards griefing - for some, the current level of griefing is OK. But, you gotta look at the biger picture, would less griefing be that bad for DF? It wouldn't make it more WoW, it wouldn't turn it into an FPS, it would make it more accessible by people who have lower tolerance for griefing.
I am the type of player where I like to do everything and anything from time to time.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor - pre-WW2 genocide.
I played UO, but I never did griefing so I can;t say how good or bad the system was. However, this does sound better then what DF currently has in place. Not as good as a system I was hoping for, but better then no change at all.
I am the type of player where I like to do everything and anything from time to time.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor - pre-WW2 genocide.
I see nothing wrong with the current system. It just needs one little tweak. That you are only able to gain alignment from the same person killed once/day. This limits farming a single player to increase alignment. That way if you are red, you have to kill a lot of different racial enemies to get blue again.
Finito.
Darkfall will most likely be Massively.com's next "Choose My Adventure". It has a very high lead and come the 9th we will know the final results. I have an account but I have not played in a few months so I am going to resub and join in on the fun. If you ladies and gentlemen want to check that out or do not know what "Choose My Adventure" is then go to Massively.com and scroll down a couple pages until you see the article, vote too if you want. I used to downright loathe the UI but you do get used to it to where it is not an issue, but there will be a new UI when the "Darkfall2010" patch hits. I was once a troll and hater when this game came out and now, it's noo too bad actually.