I don't have alot to add to this, other than pyramid quoting past two replies is ridiculous. If you are interested in DF, but unsure whether you should try it....haven't you answered your question already? I mean if you want to play a game but are worried that mean PK'ers will ruin the experience or that you will have to grind endlessly to catch up with vets...haven't you decided that it would be worth a try?
The worst thing you could do would be to sit and wonder and decide later that you made a poor choice not trying it. If you do try it, remember the simple guidelines...it's not really a solo game so if that's your deal, you will probably hate it. Never, ever take anything out of your bank that you aren't prepared to lose. Never alt-tab out. Never turn the sound down or play with music on. If you can carry a second mount. Never turn your back unless you really, really think you can get away. Find a clan after your first 7-10 days. Try and remember that the game is setup for co-op play, so if you are by yourself harvesting/grinding mobs you are like a injured seal to a shark.
Darkfall gives you the tools to defend yourself. If you choose to ignore them or not make friends that will help you and blame the game afterward...well there are plenty of posts about that.
Good luck.
Playing: BF4/BF:Hardline, Subnautica 7 days to die Hiatus: EvE Waiting on: World of Darkness(sigh) Interested in: better games in general
Yes. I think I started right before you did. I remember answering some of your questions when you first started out.
I started in summer 2010. according to wiki, NA server was up on July 13, 2009. That means that when you joined, NA server was 5 months old. When I joined, it was a year old. Perhaps that is why you haven't encountered that much griefing. In your time, people were busy macroing and raising skills. Hence the griefing wasn't that bad. The more time goes, the more vets it holds, the harder it is for noobs.
Or maybe you simply got lucky. Or maybe you don't mind when someone wipes the floor with you.
Its like if you were using Microsoft windows and you never got hacked, but other person did - does that other person have the right to claim Microsoft windows is full of security holes? The fact is, FFA PvP with no restrictions promotes griefing. You CAN live through this without ever being griefed, but the problem will not become null because one or two people never got griefed.
I understand that people have tolerance towards griefing - for some, the current level of griefing is OK. But, you gotta look at the biger picture, would less griefing be that bad for DF? It wouldn't make it more WoW, it wouldn't turn it into an FPS, it would make it more accessible by people who have lower tolerance for griefing.
Please tell me that response was tongue-in-cheek? Are you seriously suggesting that the reason I didn't get ganked as much as you supposedly did was because everyone was macroing? Macroing wasn't prevalent when I was playing. I saw zero blood walls. I didn't see anyone shooting mana missiles into the air. Those were all issues before I joined. They had drastically increased skill/stat gain from PvE mobs not too long before I joined, so it was much more efficient to farm mobs than macro.
Ganking was fairly frequent around the newb cities. I would usually be on a couple of hours every other night, and sometimes several hours on the weekends. Whenever I was on, there would be around 2-3 warnings from others who had just been ganked that a red was in the area. I was ganked a few times there, but I was always moving. If I read that someone was ganked at someplace, I'd make a note to stay away from there for a while. Eventually, I moved away from the starting cities and found little outposts with a single guard tower. I'd stay within running or riding distance of those for a while, and I'd always scout out the area I'd be in beforehand. I always had an escape route. While harvesting/killing mobs I'd also be listening for the sounds of mounts. Planning ahead saved me from attempted ganks fairly often.
Also, you keep using the word "griefing". Do you mean ganking or griefing, because I was griefed once. Just once in six months. And when I complained about it to my clanmates, they came out and griefed him until he left. The guy who was griefing me had a grudge against the clan I was in. That was his motivation for griefing. He was a douche, but he wasn't griefing for shits and giggles.
Ganking isn't really an issue since it's an inherent part of FFA PvP. Griefing is frowned upon by pretty much everyone I knew in DF. That holds true in any MMO I've played that had open PvP: AoC, WoW, EVE and DF.
Last thing, what race did you pick?
Current: None Played: WoW, CoX, SWG, LotRO, EVE, AoC, VG, CO, Ryzom, DF, WAR Tried: Lineage2, Dofus, EQ2, CoS, FE, UO, Wurm, Wakfu Future: The Repopulation, ArcheAge, Black Desert, EQN
One of the great ways UO made murdering other players less attractive was by adding a slow, eventual degredation to their kill count. Basically, every kill count took something like 8 hours to disappear, and it took five kills of innocent players to become red, or a "murderer" (40 hours of game time to degrade). Not only did it present a consequence for murdering other players (having to work off kill counts by staying in-game, not allowed in protected towns, slight skill loss upon death) but it also allows that murderer to do whatever they wanted in the world during the time they need to degrade those counts, because regardless of their activities, their status will persist until they're under the amount of murder counts necessary for the status effect. So, effectively, if a red wanted to become "blue", or innocent, they simply had to find an activity that drew their attention long enough to work off the counts (dungeon crawling, guild PvP, macroing/raising skills), rather than forcing them to kill new players for the most effective reduction from their red status.
I played UO, but I never did griefing so I can;t say how good or bad the system was. However, this does sound better then what DF currently has in place. Not as good as a system I was hoping for, but better then no change at all.
I see nothing wrong with the current system. It just needs one little tweak. That you are only able to gain alignment from the same person killed once/day. This limits farming a single player to increase alignment. That way if you are red, you have to kill a lot of different racial enemies to get blue again.
Finito.
That would help. Still won't cure if someone wants to farm noobs just because, but If they did implement this, I would try DF again to see how it works out. Now just to make AV see this and implement this. You hear AV?
Please tell me that response was tongue-in-cheek? Are you seriously suggesting that the reason I didn't get ganked as much as you supposedly did was because everyone was macroing? Macroing wasn't prevalent when I was playing. I saw zero blood walls. I didn't see anyone shooting mana missiles into the air. Those were all issues before I joined. They had drastically increased skill/stat gain from PvE mobs not too long before I joined, so it was much more efficient to farm mobs than macro.
Ganking was fairly frequent around the newb cities. I would usually be on a couple of hours every other night, and sometimes several hours on the weekends. Whenever I was on, there would be around 2-3 warnings from others who had just been ganked that a red was in the area. I was ganked a few times there, but I was always moving. If I read that someone was ganked at someplace, I'd make a note to stay away from there for a while. Eventually, I moved away from the starting cities and found little outposts with a single guard tower. I'd stay within running or riding distance of those for a while, and I'd always scout out the area I'd be in beforehand. I always had an escape route. While harvesting/killing mobs I'd also be listening for the sounds of mounts. Planning ahead saved me from attempted ganks fairly often.
Also, you keep using the word "griefing". Do you mean ganking or griefing, because I was griefed once. Just once in six months. And when I complained about it to my clanmates, they came out and griefed him until he left. The guy who was griefing me had a grudge against the clan I was in. That was his motivation for griefing. He was a douche, but he wasn't griefing for shits and giggles.
Ganking isn't really an issue since it's an inherent part of FFA PvP. Griefing is frowned upon by pretty much everyone I knew in DF. That holds true in any MMO I've played that had open PvP: AoC, WoW, EVE and DF.
Last thing, what race did you pick?
Macroing wasn't the only idea I was throwing around (lucky was another one, judging from your post and how you handled it, you seem to have a much better tolerance towards griefing - I can't stand any hint of unfairness) and it was not my intent to present macroing in a negative way (except unattended macroing, which is illegal as far as I know). what I meant is that if people are macroing to reach high level skills, they aren't doing anything else - specifically, they aren't griefing. To show extreme example, on day 1 of NA release - there was zero griefing due to everybody is the same level. As people leveled up their skills (macro or not), the difference between their skills and skills of a day 1 noob increases proportionally. When those people who tried to get as high possible as fast possible reached a certain level, they stopped grinding their skills and started PvPing, PvEing, ganking, griefing...etc.
To me, there is a difference between ganking and griefing. If you are doing something and then a vet comes in and kills you - thats ganking. If you aren't noob and you are close level to that other guy, then its not a gank, just a lost PvP fight. Only when its a very uneven/unfair fight do I consider it to be a gank.
Now, if that someone camps your corpse, keeps ganking you, goes out of way to kill you or bring harm to you - that is griefing. The time I was griefed for about 20 minutes straight (along with 4 other noobs and we did try to take him out all at once) the guy did it to get rid of red status. He said so himself. He wasn't rude or verbally abusive, he just wanted to get rid of his red status as fast as he could. The fastest means to do it at the moment - noob farming.
My race was mirdain.
The worst thing about that griefing is that I along with those other noobs felt so powerless against him. We jumped him together, but he 4-5 shotted us. His healing was more then our damage was. We caled for help - no response. Eventually those noobs loged off or tried to wait out that griefer. He kept staying just outside the range of the guard towers, trying to snipe us from a distance with fireballs. Dodging those fireballs got boring eventually so I was forced to log.
Please tell me that response was tongue-in-cheek? Are you seriously suggesting that the reason I didn't get ganked as much as you supposedly did was because everyone was macroing? Macroing wasn't prevalent when I was playing. I saw zero blood walls. I didn't see anyone shooting mana missiles into the air. Those were all issues before I joined. They had drastically increased skill/stat gain from PvE mobs not too long before I joined, so it was much more efficient to farm mobs than macro.
Ganking was fairly frequent around the newb cities. I would usually be on a couple of hours every other night, and sometimes several hours on the weekends. Whenever I was on, there would be around 2-3 warnings from others who had just been ganked that a red was in the area. I was ganked a few times there, but I was always moving. If I read that someone was ganked at someplace, I'd make a note to stay away from there for a while. Eventually, I moved away from the starting cities and found little outposts with a single guard tower. I'd stay within running or riding distance of those for a while, and I'd always scout out the area I'd be in beforehand. I always had an escape route. While harvesting/killing mobs I'd also be listening for the sounds of mounts. Planning ahead saved me from attempted ganks fairly often.
Also, you keep using the word "griefing". Do you mean ganking or griefing, because I was griefed once. Just once in six months. And when I complained about it to my clanmates, they came out and griefed him until he left. The guy who was griefing me had a grudge against the clan I was in. That was his motivation for griefing. He was a douche, but he wasn't griefing for shits and giggles.
Ganking isn't really an issue since it's an inherent part of FFA PvP. Griefing is frowned upon by pretty much everyone I knew in DF. That holds true in any MMO I've played that had open PvP: AoC, WoW, EVE and DF.
Last thing, what race did you pick?
Macroing wasn't the only idea I was throwing around (lucky was another one, judging from your post and how you handled it, you seem to have a much better tolerance towards griefing - I can't stand any hint of unfairness) and it was not my intent to present macroing in a negative way (except unattended macroing, which is illegal as far as I know). what I meant is that if people are macroing to reach high level skills, they aren't doing anything else - specifically, they aren't griefing. To show extreme example, on day 1 of NA release - there was zero griefing due to everybody is the same level. As people leveled up their skills (macro or not), the difference between their skills and skills of a day 1 noob increases proportionally. When those people who tried to get as high possible as fast possible reached a certain level, they stopped grinding their skills and started PvPing, PvEing, ganking, griefing...etc.
To me, there is a difference between ganking and griefing. If you are doing something and then a vet comes in and kills you - thats ganking. If you aren't noob and you are close level to that other guy, then its not a gank, just a lost PvP fight. Only when its a very uneven/unfair fight do I consider it to be a gank.
Now, if that someone camps your corpse, keeps ganking you, goes out of way to kill you or bring harm to you - that is griefing. The time I was griefed for about 20 minutes straight (along with 4 other noobs and we did try to take him out all at once) the guy did it to get rid of red status. He said so himself. He wasn't rude or verbally abusive, he just wanted to get rid of his red status as fast as he could. The fastest means to do it at the moment - noob farming.
My race was mirdain.
The worst thing about that griefing is that I along with those other noobs felt so powerless against him. We jumped him together, but he 4-5 shotted us. His healing was more then our damage was. We caled for help - no response. Eventually those noobs loged off or tried to wait out that griefer. He kept staying just outside the range of the guard towers, trying to snipe us from a distance with fireballs. Dodging those fireballs got boring eventually so I was forced to log.
The reason I asked about race is that some races seem to attract the douchebags (I'm looking at you, Alfar). Others, like Mirdain and Human, have more people playing them, so you'll have more people patrolling the newb areas. I was Mahirim, so there weren't as many people as the other races. I'm pretty sure that was part of it.
Was that one time the only time you were griefed? If so, I'm surprised that ruined the game for you. I understand and agree with your hatred of griefing. It truly does suck, but you can't let one occurrence spoil everything for you. When I got griefed, I was pretty pissed, but I took a deep breath, called for help and it eventually came. That sucks no help came when you asked.
The idea of a timer on how many times you can kill the same player in a set amount of time might work, but you'd need to give it some tight guidelines. For instance, that rule would suck ass in battle. In a big battle, after a while you'd have to start looking around for players you could kill instead of just fighting. That's very limiting. You could maybe solve that by only letting the timer be in effect when you're not at war with the person you're attacking, but that could easily be exploited by just war-decing their clan if they have one. That's how that one guy griefed me next to a guard tower.
How would you implement that feature?
Current: None Played: WoW, CoX, SWG, LotRO, EVE, AoC, VG, CO, Ryzom, DF, WAR Tried: Lineage2, Dofus, EQ2, CoS, FE, UO, Wurm, Wakfu Future: The Repopulation, ArcheAge, Black Desert, EQN
The reason I asked about race is that some races seem to attract the douchebags (I'm looking at you, Alfar). Others, like Mirdain and Human, have more people playing them, so you'll have more people patrolling the newb areas. I was Mahirim, so there weren't as many people as the other races. I'm pretty sure that was part of it.
That could be one of the reasons.
Was that one time the only time you were griefed? If so, I'm surprised that ruined the game for you. I understand and agree with your hatred of griefing. It truly does suck, but you can't let one occurrence spoil everything for you. When I got griefed, I was pretty pissed, but I took a deep breath, called for help and it eventually came. That sucks no help came when you asked.
I was once greifed (camped) for 20 mins. The other time I didnt let the grief go that long, I just loged. Twice in 10 days may not be that much, but I wouldn't tolerate even once in a week.
The idea of a timer on how many times you can kill the same player in a set amount of time might work, but you'd need to give it some tight guidelines. For instance, that rule would suck ass in battle. In a big battle, after a while you'd have to start looking around for players you could kill instead of just fighting. That's very limiting. You could maybe solve that by only letting the timer be in effect when you're not at war with the person you're attacking, but that could easily be exploited by just war-decing their clan if they have one. That's how that one guy griefed me next to a guard tower.
How would you implement that feature?
The idea with the timer is a good idea, but, as you mentioned it would need some tweeking.
Right now, my best idea would be this, have all NPC cities and a reasonable area around it be a PvP free zone, unless you either choose to turn on PvP flag OR you attack a PvP toggled character. This is how WoW handles it on PvP servers. Basically, you are safe untill you get out of the noobs areas. Enemies in this safe area are attackable. Meaning, if a noob mirdain goes into Mahrim noob zone, anyone can attack that poor mirdain. That mirdain cannot attack anyone in that zone untill someone attacks that mirdain. This way noobs have a choice to whether engage in PvP or not. This allows noobs to level up at their own pace, not being forced to learn PvP in an hour (the Pvp safe timer that is currently in). You can even tweak this rule so that vets (X number of ingame hours, or X number of skill points) are NOT safe anywhere. The idea is that a vet knows the dangers and can deal with it appropriately.
Obviously as soon as anyone ventures outside of that safe zone, they are free to gank/grief. No need to worry about who to attack in a big battle. No timer at all.
I know that this idea means less options for the players to attack, but how many people fight in NPC cities? Mostly vets fighting noobs, right? Oh, to add another tweak to this sytem, I think leaving clan warfare as it is right now is a fair choice. Meaning, a clan member can attack someone from an enemy clan inside safe zones freely.
What this idea does is gives noobs more breathing space. Less griefing->more happy noobs->more noobs staying and becoming vets->more people playing DF->bigger battles
The idea of a timer on how many times you can kill the same player in a set amount of time might work, but you'd need to give it some tight guidelines. For instance, that rule would suck ass in battle. In a big battle, after a while you'd have to start looking around for players you could kill instead of just fighting. That's very limiting. You could maybe solve that by only letting the timer be in effect when you're not at war with the person you're attacking, but that could easily be exploited by just war-decing their clan if they have one. That's how that one guy griefed me next to a guard tower.
How would you implement that feature?
The idea with the timer is a good idea, but, as you mentioned it would need some tweeking.
Right now, my best idea would be this, have all NPC cities and a reasonable area around it be a PvP free zone, unless you either choose to turn on PvP flag OR you attack a PvP toggled character. This is how WoW handles it on PvP servers. Basically, you are safe untill you get out of the noobs areas. Enemies in this safe area are attackable. Meaning, if a noob mirdain goes into Mahrim noob zone, anyone can attack that poor mirdain. That mirdain cannot attack anyone in that zone untill someone attacks that mirdain. This way noobs have a choice to whether engage in PvP or not. This allows noobs to level up at their own pace, not being forced to learn PvP in an hour (the Pvp safe timer that is currently in). You can even tweak this rule so that vets (X number of ingame hours, or X number of skill points) are NOT safe anywhere. The idea is that a vet knows the dangers and can deal with it appropriately.
Obviously as soon as anyone ventures outside of that safe zone, they are free to gank/grief. No need to worry about who to attack in a big battle. No timer at all.
I know that this idea means less options for the players to attack, but how many people fight in NPC cities? Mostly vets fighting noobs, right? Oh, to add another tweak to this sytem, I think leaving clan warfare as it is right now is a fair choice. Meaning, a clan member can attack someone from an enemy clan inside safe zones freely.
What this idea does is gives noobs more breathing space. Less griefing->more happy noobs->more noobs staying and becoming vets->more people playing DF->bigger battles
I'm not against the idea of newb safe-zones necessarily. They work for EVE. And EVE's high-sec space isn't truly a safe zone as you can still get attacked and killed there. I like the idea of vets not able to hang in safe-zones to avoid PvP. You could also make it so that nothing of real value can be harvested in the newb zones. Just basic mats, mobs, etc.
The only thing that concerns me is how big the safe area would be. There could be other issues I haven't thought of too.
Current: None Played: WoW, CoX, SWG, LotRO, EVE, AoC, VG, CO, Ryzom, DF, WAR Tried: Lineage2, Dofus, EQ2, CoS, FE, UO, Wurm, Wakfu Future: The Repopulation, ArcheAge, Black Desert, EQN
Again, I don't think anyone here really disagrees with the thrust of what this guy is saying. I don't. There is a grind in the game, clearly (nearly all MMOs have a grind), but the debate is over how big of a grind it really is and how much faster (if any) character progression should be made. If it's too fast, then you'll effectively reach "end game" quickly and there's nothing left to really pursue after a while. PvPing for shits and giggles will get old after a while. Capturing and defending towns will get old after a while if there's no reason or purpose behind any of it. Like I said before, if there's not enough sand in the sandbox, PvPing for PvP's sake will become tedious and will be no different than an MMOFPS.
I think what most of us that have been posting agree on is we don't want it to become an MMOFPS with no progression, no sense of achievement, danger or excitement. If PvP was strictly consensual and tiered then a big chunk of the free-for-all PvP would be gone. Where's the sense of danger or excitement if you know you're never really in danger? There's no risk!
EDIT: I don't pretend to be the spokesperson for others. If you agree or disagree with what I said, please speak up! It's where I'm coming from and where I think several others are too.
1) Everything gets old, even PVP, regardless how 'deep' you make it.
2) Darkfall is and always was no more than MMOFPS.
3) Where is the risk? Who says there should be some? Let players play them the way they like. Imposing a certain play style, especially the one that is preferred by tiny minority won't get you anywhere.
FFA PVP needs to go away. It severely limits your options, like the one when I can chose if I want to risk the loss or not.
1. Yes, but how does that justify not adding any sand to the sandbox? A dev studio would be suicidal to not add new stuff to an MMO after launch. And the more sand you add to the box, the more alternatives you have to gameplay. It's really straightforward. It's not complicated. Why you're essentially arguing against it boggles my mind.
2. Uh... no. Show me where you read that.
3. Wow. If you don't want risk, don't play a full loot FFA PvP game. It really is that simple. There are dozens of other games that are more likely what you want.
FFA PvP is not going away. Learn to live with it or find another game.
I truly, truly do not understand this. A game's fundamental mechanic is FFA PvP. It's not a surprise...they aren't springing it on you...it's like the base that the rest of the game is built on. Then, someone plays the game and complains that it has FFA PvP. Even going so far as to say that FFA PvP shouldn't exist. Like the fact that it even exists in the world is somehow ruining their day.
Why do they keep playing games where the fundamental, base mechanic of the game is FFA PvP if they hate FFA PvP?
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
I'm not against the idea of newb safe-zones necessarily. They work for EVE. And EVE's high-sec space isn't truly a safe zone as you can still get attacked and killed there. I like the idea of vets not able to hang in safe-zones to avoid PvP. You could also make it so that nothing of real value can be harvested in the newb zones. Just basic mats, mobs, etc.
The only thing that concerns me is how big the safe area would be. There could be other issues I haven't thought of too.
Good call on the "nothing of real value can be harvested in the newb zones" to prevent people from making trial chars over and over to mine stuff in safety. Make it so that no rare material can be harvested in safe area, or make it 5x-10x as rare. Better yet, make it so if a trial char harvests X number of ore, his harvesting diminishes rapidly. X is being the reasonable number of "how much ore does a noob need?" Noobs do not need a million ore, right?
The safe area shouldn't be that big, perhaps 10-30% of the world size in total. And dont forget about vets not being in a safe zone anywhere. Also clans too. A noob in a clan is not safe in safe zone vs another clan that wardeced them.
All ofthis is tweaking, but I think it can be done. If AV was willing.
Good call on the "nothing of real value can be harvested in the newb zones" to prevent people from making trial chars over and over to mine stuff in safety. Make it so that no rare material can be harvested in safe area, or make it 5x-10x as rare. Better yet, make it so if a trial char harvests X number of ore, his harvesting diminishes rapidly. X is being the reasonable number of "how much ore does a noob need?" Noobs do not need a million ore, right?
The safe area shouldn't be that big, perhaps 10-30% of the world size in total. And dont forget about vets not being in a safe zone anywhere. Also clans too. A noob in a clan is not safe in safe zone vs another clan that wardeced them.
All ofthis is tweaking, but I think it can be done. If AV was willing.
There is really no need for a safezone.
The problem is that the alignment system doesn't count for jack at the moment. In fact, it actually promotes the killing of n00bs. For example:
I kill 5 human n00bs. I go red.
I kill 20 Alfar n00bs. I go blue.
It is really that simple. While going red may screw over a new player, it is fine for a vet.
Another problem is the war declaration system:
Clan A is a "good" human clan composed of n00bs
Clan B is a "good" human clan composed of vets
Clan B unilatterally delcares war on Clan A. Clan B can now gank members from Clan A in "good" aligned cities without the guards helping, and without losing alignment.
Solution:
Alignment
In order to gain back alignment after killing friendlies, you need to complete a quest that requires you to kill mobs and pay gold. Each time you complete the quest, the cost goes up. The quest can only be completed once every 48 hours.
War Declarations
Towers in cities attack the agressor, regardless of war declaration status. Also, when you declare war on someone it automatically declares war on everyone who is an ally of that person. Furthermore, a war declaration either needs to be consensual, or it has a gold upkeep cost.
Good call on the "nothing of real value can be harvested in the newb zones" to prevent people from making trial chars over and over to mine stuff in safety. Make it so that no rare material can be harvested in safe area, or make it 5x-10x as rare. Better yet, make it so if a trial char harvests X number of ore, his harvesting diminishes rapidly. X is being the reasonable number of "how much ore does a noob need?" Noobs do not need a million ore, right?
The safe area shouldn't be that big, perhaps 10-30% of the world size in total. And dont forget about vets not being in a safe zone anywhere. Also clans too. A noob in a clan is not safe in safe zone vs another clan that wardeced them.
All ofthis is tweaking, but I think it can be done. If AV was willing.
There is really no need for a safezone.
The problem is that the alignment system doesn't count for jack at the moment. In fact, it actually promotes the killing of n00bs. For example:
I kill 5 human n00bs. I go red.
I kill 20 Alfar n00bs. I go blue.
It is really that simple. While going red may screw over a new player, it is fine for a vet.
Another problem is the war declaration system:
Clan A is a "good" human clan composed of n00bs
Clan B is a "good" human clan composed of vets
Clan B unilatterally delcares war on Clan A. Clan B can now gank members from Clan A in "good" aligned cities without the guards helping, and without losing alignment.
Solution:
Alignment
In order to gain back alignment after killing friendlies, you need to complete a quest that requires you to kill mobs and pay gold. Each time you complete the quest, the cost goes up. The quest can only be completed once every 48 hours.
War Declarations
Towers in cities attack the agressor, regardless of war declaration status. Also, when you declare war on someone it automatically declares war on everyone who is an ally of that person. Furthermore, a war declaration either needs to be consensual, or it has a gold upkeep cost.
I thought they changed how war decs worked? As in they cost money now to initiate and to maintain the wardec, you need to pay a certain amount over time? Or am I imagining that? Or is the change that wardecs are not immediate now? If not, that's a great solution. More like real war. War costs money. It's kind of stupid to declare war indefinitely and it not cost you anything.
I agree that the alignment system is nearly pointless right now, or was when I was playing.
Current: None Played: WoW, CoX, SWG, LotRO, EVE, AoC, VG, CO, Ryzom, DF, WAR Tried: Lineage2, Dofus, EQ2, CoS, FE, UO, Wurm, Wakfu Future: The Repopulation, ArcheAge, Black Desert, EQN
I'm not against the idea of newb safe-zones necessarily. They work for EVE. And EVE's high-sec space isn't truly a safe zone as you can still get attacked and killed there. I like the idea of vets not able to hang in safe-zones to avoid PvP. You could also make it so that nothing of real value can be harvested in the newb zones. Just basic mats, mobs, etc.
The only thing that concerns me is how big the safe area would be. There could be other issues I haven't thought of too.
Good call on the "nothing of real value can be harvested in the newb zones" to prevent people from making trial chars over and over to mine stuff in safety. Make it so that no rare material can be harvested in safe area, or make it 5x-10x as rare. Better yet, make it so if a trial char harvests X number of ore, his harvesting diminishes rapidly. X is being the reasonable number of "how much ore does a noob need?" Noobs do not need a million ore, right?
The safe area shouldn't be that big, perhaps 10-30% of the world size in total. And dont forget about vets not being in a safe zone anywhere. Also clans too. A noob in a clan is not safe in safe zone vs another clan that wardeced them.
All ofthis is tweaking, but I think it can be done. If AV was willing.
I think your suggestion of 10-30% of the land be a safe-zone is too big. Especially 30%, that would be a HUGE area. It would effectively make a third of the entire world useless for advanced players. 10% would be the biggest I would ever make it. If I were to add safe-zones, I'd make the starter cities and a small area around them the safe-zones. That's a big enough area for newbs to work on their basic skills and some quests.
Also, the safe-zones shouldn't be 100% safe. Even EVE's high-sec space isn't 100% safe. You can still get attacked and killed there. And you can be attacked as a newb in high-sec if you are the aggressor. Chances are much lower, but it can still happen.
I like Uzik's idea of guard towers still attacking the aggressor in cities. Make sure the towers hit hard so the vets can't heal their way out of it.
Current: None Played: WoW, CoX, SWG, LotRO, EVE, AoC, VG, CO, Ryzom, DF, WAR Tried: Lineage2, Dofus, EQ2, CoS, FE, UO, Wurm, Wakfu Future: The Repopulation, ArcheAge, Black Desert, EQN
I thought they changed how war decs worked? As in they cost money now to initiate and to maintain the wardec, you need to pay a certain amount over time? Or am I imagining that? Or is the change that wardecs are not immediate now? If not, that's a great solution. More like real war. War costs money. It's kind of stupid to declare war indefinitely and it not cost you anything.
I agree that the alignment system is nearly pointless right now, or was when I was playing.
They added a nominal fee. Proof that is doesn't work is seen in guilds like Goblin Preservation Society and Fallen Lords who war dec every clan they see and try to gank them in NPC towns.
I'm not against the idea of newb safe-zones necessarily. They work for EVE. And EVE's high-sec space isn't truly a safe zone as you can still get attacked and killed there. I like the idea of vets not able to hang in safe-zones to avoid PvP. You could also make it so that nothing of real value can be harvested in the newb zones. Just basic mats, mobs, etc.
The only thing that concerns me is how big the safe area would be. There could be other issues I haven't thought of too.
Good call on the "nothing of real value can be harvested in the newb zones" to prevent people from making trial chars over and over to mine stuff in safety. Make it so that no rare material can be harvested in safe area, or make it 5x-10x as rare. Better yet, make it so if a trial char harvests X number of ore, his harvesting diminishes rapidly. X is being the reasonable number of "how much ore does a noob need?" Noobs do not need a million ore, right?
The safe area shouldn't be that big, perhaps 10-30% of the world size in total. And dont forget about vets not being in a safe zone anywhere. Also clans too. A noob in a clan is not safe in safe zone vs another clan that wardeced them.
All ofthis is tweaking, but I think it can be done. If AV was willing.
1) I think your suggestion of 10-30% of the land be a safe-zone is too big. Especially 30%, that would be a HUGE area. It would effectively make a third of the entire world useless for advanced players. 10% would be the biggest I would ever make it. If I were to add safe-zones, I'd make the starter cities and a small area around them the safe-zones. That's a big enough area for newbs to work on their basic skills and some quests.
2) Also, the safe-zones shouldn't be 100% safe. Even EVE's high-sec space isn't 100% safe. You can still get attacked and killed there. And you can be attacked as a newb in high-sec if you are the aggressor. Chances are much lower, but it can still happen.
I like Uzik's idea of guard towers still attacking the aggressor in cities. Make sure the towers hit hard so the vets can't heal their way out of it.
1) 30% may be a big territory, but not useless to the vets. Remember the idea that a vet gains no benefit of the safe zone? To a vet, 100% of DF is FFA PvP zone. Only noobs would be protected to some degree.
2) That degree is exactly what you describe here - if a noob attacks a vet in safe zone, he get tagged and is free-to-be-attacked by anyone. Same rules apply if he loots a PvP-tagged corpse - this to prevent noobs from shadowing vets and stealing their stuff.
1) I think your suggestion of 10-30% of the land be a safe-zone is too big. Especially 30%, that would be a HUGE area. It would effectively make a third of the entire world useless for advanced players. 10% would be the biggest I would ever make it. If I were to add safe-zones, I'd make the starter cities and a small area around them the safe-zones. That's a big enough area for newbs to work on their basic skills and some quests.
2) Also, the safe-zones shouldn't be 100% safe. Even EVE's high-sec space isn't 100% safe. You can still get attacked and killed there. And you can be attacked as a newb in high-sec if you are the aggressor. Chances are much lower, but it can still happen.
I like Uzik's idea of guard towers still attacking the aggressor in cities. Make sure the towers hit hard so the vets can't heal their way out of it.
1) 30% may be a big territory, but not useless to the vets. Remember the idea that a vet gains no benefit of the safe zone? To a vet, 100% of DF is FFA PvP zone. Only noobs would be protected to some degree.
2) That degree is exactly what you describe here - if a noob attacks a vet in safe zone, he get tagged and is free-to-be-attacked by anyone. Same rules apply if he loots a PvP-tagged corpse - this to prevent noobs from shadowing vets and stealing their stuff.
1. But there's no point in a vet going to that 30% of land, is there? Maybe trade? If there's nothing worth harvesting, and he can't attack any players, then it's useless land. And where's the cut-off for newb vs vet? Sorry, but we're getting into tiered PvP which I don't want in the game.
2. No, even in EVE a vet can attack a newb in high-sec space. They'll just be beaten to a pulp by CONCORD.
Current: None Played: WoW, CoX, SWG, LotRO, EVE, AoC, VG, CO, Ryzom, DF, WAR Tried: Lineage2, Dofus, EQ2, CoS, FE, UO, Wurm, Wakfu Future: The Repopulation, ArcheAge, Black Desert, EQN
1) I think your suggestion of 10-30% of the land be a safe-zone is too big. Especially 30%, that would be a HUGE area. It would effectively make a third of the entire world useless for advanced players. 10% would be the biggest I would ever make it. If I were to add safe-zones, I'd make the starter cities and a small area around them the safe-zones. That's a big enough area for newbs to work on their basic skills and some quests.
2) Also, the safe-zones shouldn't be 100% safe. Even EVE's high-sec space isn't 100% safe. You can still get attacked and killed there. And you can be attacked as a newb in high-sec if you are the aggressor. Chances are much lower, but it can still happen.
I like Uzik's idea of guard towers still attacking the aggressor in cities. Make sure the towers hit hard so the vets can't heal their way out of it.
1) 30% may be a big territory, but not useless to the vets. Remember the idea that a vet gains no benefit of the safe zone? To a vet, 100% of DF is FFA PvP zone. Only noobs would be protected to some degree.
2) That degree is exactly what you describe here - if a noob attacks a vet in safe zone, he get tagged and is free-to-be-attacked by anyone. Same rules apply if he loots a PvP-tagged corpse - this to prevent noobs from shadowing vets and stealing their stuff.
1. But there's no point in a vet going to that 30% of land, is there? Maybe trade? If there's nothing worth harvesting, and he can't attack any players, then it's useless land. And where's the cut-off for newb vs vet? Sorry, but we're getting into tiered PvP which I don't want in the game.
2. No, even in EVE a vet can attack a newb in high-sec space. They'll just be beaten to a pulp by CONCORD.
1) well, what do vets do around noob cities nowadays? Other then griefing noobs?
2) this will not work in DF if a vet can 4-5 shot a noob. Unless guards spawn immediately beside him and 1-2 shot him. Whats the point of a safe zone if a vet can escape the guard? Not so safe of a zone anymore.
1) well, what do vets do around noob cities nowadays? Other then griefing noobs?
2) this will not work in DF if a vet can 4-5 shot a noob. Unless guards spawn immediately beside him and 1-2 shot him. Whats the point of a safe zone if a vet can escape the guard? Not so safe of a zone anymore.
I mine around noob cities. They're the only place I've found with 20+ iron nodes around a wilderness bank guarded by a tower.
Guess what, the only competition I have in mining the nodes are Chinese farmers, NOT new players. And I can't kill them! Because if I do, I'll go red, and I won't be able to mine in that area anymore.
More protection would simply mean more Chinese farmers protected by towers.
In addition, in a 10 hour period of mining, I usually only get attacked once.
i really like the concept of DF and i think it's close. but there are still 2 real gamebreakers for me.
1) there is no system of punishment for people who gank/grief others. I'm not saying it shd be prevented completely... heaven forbid... i'm just saying there shd be repercussions more heavy than the ones in place. In eve, there are pirates and griefers but they are in the minority because there are serious repercussions to doing that kinda thing, which means there are areas in eve (hisec) that, while NOT 100% safe, they are safe to a decent point and psople who wish to learn the game can stay there.
2) there's no sticky targeting, this might just be me but i hate accidentally attacking an ally simply because i can't target who i want to target. if sticky targeting is too far, then perhaps a toggle that you could set to make your attacks not hit party/clan members. ya, that'd work, i like that.
if these were in the works, i'm sold on DF and it would be a great compliment to my almost 100% eve diet
RIP Ribbitribbitt you are missed, kid.
Currently Playing EVE, ESO
Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and not clothed.
2) there's no sticky targeting, this might just be me but i hate accidentally attacking an ally simply because i can't target who i want to target. if sticky targeting is too far, then perhaps a toggle that you could set to make your attacks not hit party/clan members. ya, that'd work, i like that.
I don't prefer sticky targeting, but I think they could've added more options for combat rather than just strafing around spamming M1, doesnt require very much combat strategy or thought beyond twitch skills.
Ganker/griefers are a very low percentage of the population. The big ones (trade gankers/constant noob griefers) are already KoS for almost the entire playerbase.
Most of the so called "ganker/griefers" are just players killing other races to knock off alignment hits, or people hunting gatherers for their resources. Doesn't help that lots of people don't bank when they have 250+ ore and 3+ rare ores on them. It just makes gatherers attractive targets.
In Dwarflands, next to a starter city, I usually don't get attacked more than twice in a 10 hour period.
Friendly fire is an integral part of the game. I laugh when I watch 4 guys all clusterfuck in melee to try to kill one guy, and all four end up low enough for another guy to simply pick off.
Learn to not hit your teammates, or work on your teamwork until you guys know exactly what to do when to avoid hitting each other.
I don't prefer sticky targeting, but I think they could've added more options for combat rather than just strafing around spamming M1, doesnt require very much combat strategy or thought beyond twitch skills.
Uh... friendly fire PREVENTS the stafing around spamming M1. It's apparent when you see 4 guys all try to melee down one guy, and have all 4 guys all bring each other to less than 20% health.
If you join a clan it makes the game even more fun. The community is quite bad, imo, but right when I got into a clan it was the complete opposite: everyone was helpful, giving, and friendly.
1. But there's no point in a vet going to that 30% of land, is there? Maybe trade? If there's nothing worth harvesting, and he can't attack any players, then it's useless land. And where's the cut-off for newb vs vet? Sorry, but we're getting into tiered PvP which I don't want in the game.
2. No, even in EVE a vet can attack a newb in high-sec space. They'll just be beaten to a pulp by CONCORD.
1) well, what do vets do around noob cities nowadays? Other then griefing noobs?
2) this will not work in DF if a vet can 4-5 shot a noob. Unless guards spawn immediately beside him and 1-2 shot him. Whats the point of a safe zone if a vet can escape the guard? Not so safe of a zone anymore.
1. What I'm saying is that making 30% of the land useless to vets is not a good idea at all. Vets can bank, harvest, craft and help out newbs if they want. Or attack them if they want. That's the great thing about it. It allows that freedom. Tiered PvP starts segregating the gamers and taking away bits of freedom currently available. Let vets gank newbs or anyone in safe zones if they want, but make them pay for it.
2. What guards? I'm talking about guard towers, not guards. In EVE it doesn't take long at all for a vet to kill a newb in their newby frigate. They will almost always be able to kill them before Concord shows up. The deal is that once Concord does show up, they're toast. Also, they are flagged as an aggressor and lose some freedom in high-sec space. Read up on EVE high-sec, kill rights and Concord. It's really well thought out.
So if you have to have a "safe zone" in DF, here's how I'd do it:
a. Increase the number of guard towers around newb cities and nearby areas and increase their range and power.
b. Have guard towers around or near some (not all) newb mob spawns like gobs and trolls to make it easier to get your initial skill gains. a and b together would not equal more than 10% of the game world.
c. If a vet attacks someone (newb or vet) in a safe zone, he's flagged as an aggressor and is KOS by the guard towers at any safe zone, even if they attacked someone at another safe zone and somehow got away. that will make it much harder for a newb ganker to go from zone to zone picking off newbs. they can get rid of their "aggressor" or red status by killing enemy faction players outside of safe zones, which should mean more challenging PvP fights to regain blue.
d. They can be fully looted if they are killed by guard towers in the safe zone, which is another incentive not to gank people in safe zones. You lose your shit.
That would need to be fleshed out more and fine-tunes I'm sure, but that's the general gist of how I would approach safe zones in DF.
Current: None Played: WoW, CoX, SWG, LotRO, EVE, AoC, VG, CO, Ryzom, DF, WAR Tried: Lineage2, Dofus, EQ2, CoS, FE, UO, Wurm, Wakfu Future: The Repopulation, ArcheAge, Black Desert, EQN
Reason to try darkfall, offline character progression that will soon take place. The day i will resub and the day i will never get banned from mmorpg.com again for my exploit comments.
I don't prefer sticky targeting, but I think they could've added more options for combat rather than just strafing around spamming M1, doesnt require very much combat strategy or thought beyond twitch skills.
Uh... friendly fire PREVENTS the stafing around spamming M1. It's apparent when you see 4 guys all try to melee down one guy, and have all 4 guys all bring each other to less than 20% health.
I was speaking more in terms of 1v1, sorry for not clarifying. It seems like there's nothing to pay attention to besides your health/stam/mana, the target and your cursor.
Comments
I don't have alot to add to this, other than pyramid quoting past two replies is ridiculous. If you are interested in DF, but unsure whether you should try it....haven't you answered your question already? I mean if you want to play a game but are worried that mean PK'ers will ruin the experience or that you will have to grind endlessly to catch up with vets...haven't you decided that it would be worth a try?
The worst thing you could do would be to sit and wonder and decide later that you made a poor choice not trying it. If you do try it, remember the simple guidelines...it's not really a solo game so if that's your deal, you will probably hate it. Never, ever take anything out of your bank that you aren't prepared to lose. Never alt-tab out. Never turn the sound down or play with music on. If you can carry a second mount. Never turn your back unless you really, really think you can get away. Find a clan after your first 7-10 days. Try and remember that the game is setup for co-op play, so if you are by yourself harvesting/grinding mobs you are like a injured seal to a shark.
Darkfall gives you the tools to defend yourself. If you choose to ignore them or not make friends that will help you and blame the game afterward...well there are plenty of posts about that.
Good luck.
Playing: BF4/BF:Hardline, Subnautica 7 days to die
Hiatus: EvE
Waiting on: World of Darkness(sigh)
Interested in: better games in general
Please tell me that response was tongue-in-cheek? Are you seriously suggesting that the reason I didn't get ganked as much as you supposedly did was because everyone was macroing? Macroing wasn't prevalent when I was playing. I saw zero blood walls. I didn't see anyone shooting mana missiles into the air. Those were all issues before I joined. They had drastically increased skill/stat gain from PvE mobs not too long before I joined, so it was much more efficient to farm mobs than macro.
Ganking was fairly frequent around the newb cities. I would usually be on a couple of hours every other night, and sometimes several hours on the weekends. Whenever I was on, there would be around 2-3 warnings from others who had just been ganked that a red was in the area. I was ganked a few times there, but I was always moving. If I read that someone was ganked at someplace, I'd make a note to stay away from there for a while. Eventually, I moved away from the starting cities and found little outposts with a single guard tower. I'd stay within running or riding distance of those for a while, and I'd always scout out the area I'd be in beforehand. I always had an escape route. While harvesting/killing mobs I'd also be listening for the sounds of mounts. Planning ahead saved me from attempted ganks fairly often.
Also, you keep using the word "griefing". Do you mean ganking or griefing, because I was griefed once. Just once in six months. And when I complained about it to my clanmates, they came out and griefed him until he left. The guy who was griefing me had a grudge against the clan I was in. That was his motivation for griefing. He was a douche, but he wasn't griefing for shits and giggles.
Ganking isn't really an issue since it's an inherent part of FFA PvP. Griefing is frowned upon by pretty much everyone I knew in DF. That holds true in any MMO I've played that had open PvP: AoC, WoW, EVE and DF.
Last thing, what race did you pick?
Current: None
Played: WoW, CoX, SWG, LotRO, EVE, AoC, VG, CO, Ryzom, DF, WAR
Tried: Lineage2, Dofus, EQ2, CoS, FE, UO, Wurm, Wakfu
Future: The Repopulation, ArcheAge, Black Desert, EQN
That would help. Still won't cure if someone wants to farm noobs just because, but If they did implement this, I would try DF again to see how it works out. Now just to make AV see this and implement this. You hear AV?
I am the type of player where I like to do everything and anything from time to time.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor - pre-WW2 genocide.
Macroing wasn't the only idea I was throwing around (lucky was another one, judging from your post and how you handled it, you seem to have a much better tolerance towards griefing - I can't stand any hint of unfairness) and it was not my intent to present macroing in a negative way (except unattended macroing, which is illegal as far as I know). what I meant is that if people are macroing to reach high level skills, they aren't doing anything else - specifically, they aren't griefing. To show extreme example, on day 1 of NA release - there was zero griefing due to everybody is the same level. As people leveled up their skills (macro or not), the difference between their skills and skills of a day 1 noob increases proportionally. When those people who tried to get as high possible as fast possible reached a certain level, they stopped grinding their skills and started PvPing, PvEing, ganking, griefing...etc.
To me, there is a difference between ganking and griefing. If you are doing something and then a vet comes in and kills you - thats ganking. If you aren't noob and you are close level to that other guy, then its not a gank, just a lost PvP fight. Only when its a very uneven/unfair fight do I consider it to be a gank.
Now, if that someone camps your corpse, keeps ganking you, goes out of way to kill you or bring harm to you - that is griefing. The time I was griefed for about 20 minutes straight (along with 4 other noobs and we did try to take him out all at once) the guy did it to get rid of red status. He said so himself. He wasn't rude or verbally abusive, he just wanted to get rid of his red status as fast as he could. The fastest means to do it at the moment - noob farming.
My race was mirdain.
The worst thing about that griefing is that I along with those other noobs felt so powerless against him. We jumped him together, but he 4-5 shotted us. His healing was more then our damage was. We caled for help - no response. Eventually those noobs loged off or tried to wait out that griefer. He kept staying just outside the range of the guard towers, trying to snipe us from a distance with fireballs. Dodging those fireballs got boring eventually so I was forced to log.
I am the type of player where I like to do everything and anything from time to time.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor - pre-WW2 genocide.
The reason I asked about race is that some races seem to attract the douchebags (I'm looking at you, Alfar). Others, like Mirdain and Human, have more people playing them, so you'll have more people patrolling the newb areas. I was Mahirim, so there weren't as many people as the other races. I'm pretty sure that was part of it.
Was that one time the only time you were griefed? If so, I'm surprised that ruined the game for you. I understand and agree with your hatred of griefing. It truly does suck, but you can't let one occurrence spoil everything for you. When I got griefed, I was pretty pissed, but I took a deep breath, called for help and it eventually came. That sucks no help came when you asked.
The idea of a timer on how many times you can kill the same player in a set amount of time might work, but you'd need to give it some tight guidelines. For instance, that rule would suck ass in battle. In a big battle, after a while you'd have to start looking around for players you could kill instead of just fighting. That's very limiting. You could maybe solve that by only letting the timer be in effect when you're not at war with the person you're attacking, but that could easily be exploited by just war-decing their clan if they have one. That's how that one guy griefed me next to a guard tower.
How would you implement that feature?
Current: None
Played: WoW, CoX, SWG, LotRO, EVE, AoC, VG, CO, Ryzom, DF, WAR
Tried: Lineage2, Dofus, EQ2, CoS, FE, UO, Wurm, Wakfu
Future: The Repopulation, ArcheAge, Black Desert, EQN
I am the type of player where I like to do everything and anything from time to time.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor - pre-WW2 genocide.
I'm not against the idea of newb safe-zones necessarily. They work for EVE. And EVE's high-sec space isn't truly a safe zone as you can still get attacked and killed there. I like the idea of vets not able to hang in safe-zones to avoid PvP. You could also make it so that nothing of real value can be harvested in the newb zones. Just basic mats, mobs, etc.
The only thing that concerns me is how big the safe area would be. There could be other issues I haven't thought of too.
Current: None
Played: WoW, CoX, SWG, LotRO, EVE, AoC, VG, CO, Ryzom, DF, WAR
Tried: Lineage2, Dofus, EQ2, CoS, FE, UO, Wurm, Wakfu
Future: The Repopulation, ArcheAge, Black Desert, EQN
I truly, truly do not understand this. A game's fundamental mechanic is FFA PvP. It's not a surprise...they aren't springing it on you...it's like the base that the rest of the game is built on. Then, someone plays the game and complains that it has FFA PvP. Even going so far as to say that FFA PvP shouldn't exist. Like the fact that it even exists in the world is somehow ruining their day.
Why do they keep playing games where the fundamental, base mechanic of the game is FFA PvP if they hate FFA PvP?
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Good call on the "nothing of real value can be harvested in the newb zones" to prevent people from making trial chars over and over to mine stuff in safety. Make it so that no rare material can be harvested in safe area, or make it 5x-10x as rare. Better yet, make it so if a trial char harvests X number of ore, his harvesting diminishes rapidly. X is being the reasonable number of "how much ore does a noob need?" Noobs do not need a million ore, right?
The safe area shouldn't be that big, perhaps 10-30% of the world size in total. And dont forget about vets not being in a safe zone anywhere. Also clans too. A noob in a clan is not safe in safe zone vs another clan that wardeced them.
All ofthis is tweaking, but I think it can be done. If AV was willing.
I am the type of player where I like to do everything and anything from time to time.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor - pre-WW2 genocide.
There is really no need for a safezone.
The problem is that the alignment system doesn't count for jack at the moment. In fact, it actually promotes the killing of n00bs. For example:
I kill 5 human n00bs. I go red.
I kill 20 Alfar n00bs. I go blue.
It is really that simple. While going red may screw over a new player, it is fine for a vet.
Another problem is the war declaration system:
Clan A is a "good" human clan composed of n00bs
Clan B is a "good" human clan composed of vets
Clan B unilatterally delcares war on Clan A. Clan B can now gank members from Clan A in "good" aligned cities without the guards helping, and without losing alignment.
Solution:
Alignment
In order to gain back alignment after killing friendlies, you need to complete a quest that requires you to kill mobs and pay gold. Each time you complete the quest, the cost goes up. The quest can only be completed once every 48 hours.
War Declarations
Towers in cities attack the agressor, regardless of war declaration status. Also, when you declare war on someone it automatically declares war on everyone who is an ally of that person. Furthermore, a war declaration either needs to be consensual, or it has a gold upkeep cost.
(Uzik ibnYaraq in game. Always willing to help.)
http://www.youtube.com/user/UzikAlJhamin
I thought they changed how war decs worked? As in they cost money now to initiate and to maintain the wardec, you need to pay a certain amount over time? Or am I imagining that? Or is the change that wardecs are not immediate now? If not, that's a great solution. More like real war. War costs money. It's kind of stupid to declare war indefinitely and it not cost you anything.
I agree that the alignment system is nearly pointless right now, or was when I was playing.
Current: None
Played: WoW, CoX, SWG, LotRO, EVE, AoC, VG, CO, Ryzom, DF, WAR
Tried: Lineage2, Dofus, EQ2, CoS, FE, UO, Wurm, Wakfu
Future: The Repopulation, ArcheAge, Black Desert, EQN
I think your suggestion of 10-30% of the land be a safe-zone is too big. Especially 30%, that would be a HUGE area. It would effectively make a third of the entire world useless for advanced players. 10% would be the biggest I would ever make it. If I were to add safe-zones, I'd make the starter cities and a small area around them the safe-zones. That's a big enough area for newbs to work on their basic skills and some quests.
Also, the safe-zones shouldn't be 100% safe. Even EVE's high-sec space isn't 100% safe. You can still get attacked and killed there. And you can be attacked as a newb in high-sec if you are the aggressor. Chances are much lower, but it can still happen.
I like Uzik's idea of guard towers still attacking the aggressor in cities. Make sure the towers hit hard so the vets can't heal their way out of it.
Current: None
Played: WoW, CoX, SWG, LotRO, EVE, AoC, VG, CO, Ryzom, DF, WAR
Tried: Lineage2, Dofus, EQ2, CoS, FE, UO, Wurm, Wakfu
Future: The Repopulation, ArcheAge, Black Desert, EQN
They added a nominal fee. Proof that is doesn't work is seen in guilds like Goblin Preservation Society and Fallen Lords who war dec every clan they see and try to gank them in NPC towns.
(Uzik ibnYaraq in game. Always willing to help.)
http://www.youtube.com/user/UzikAlJhamin
1) 30% may be a big territory, but not useless to the vets. Remember the idea that a vet gains no benefit of the safe zone? To a vet, 100% of DF is FFA PvP zone. Only noobs would be protected to some degree.
2) That degree is exactly what you describe here - if a noob attacks a vet in safe zone, he get tagged and is free-to-be-attacked by anyone. Same rules apply if he loots a PvP-tagged corpse - this to prevent noobs from shadowing vets and stealing their stuff.
I am the type of player where I like to do everything and anything from time to time.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor - pre-WW2 genocide.
1. But there's no point in a vet going to that 30% of land, is there? Maybe trade? If there's nothing worth harvesting, and he can't attack any players, then it's useless land. And where's the cut-off for newb vs vet? Sorry, but we're getting into tiered PvP which I don't want in the game.
2. No, even in EVE a vet can attack a newb in high-sec space. They'll just be beaten to a pulp by CONCORD.
Current: None
Played: WoW, CoX, SWG, LotRO, EVE, AoC, VG, CO, Ryzom, DF, WAR
Tried: Lineage2, Dofus, EQ2, CoS, FE, UO, Wurm, Wakfu
Future: The Repopulation, ArcheAge, Black Desert, EQN
1) well, what do vets do around noob cities nowadays? Other then griefing noobs?
2) this will not work in DF if a vet can 4-5 shot a noob. Unless guards spawn immediately beside him and 1-2 shot him. Whats the point of a safe zone if a vet can escape the guard? Not so safe of a zone anymore.
I am the type of player where I like to do everything and anything from time to time.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor - pre-WW2 genocide.
I mine around noob cities. They're the only place I've found with 20+ iron nodes around a wilderness bank guarded by a tower.
Guess what, the only competition I have in mining the nodes are Chinese farmers, NOT new players. And I can't kill them! Because if I do, I'll go red, and I won't be able to mine in that area anymore.
More protection would simply mean more Chinese farmers protected by towers.
In addition, in a 10 hour period of mining, I usually only get attacked once.
i really like the concept of DF and i think it's close. but there are still 2 real gamebreakers for me.
1) there is no system of punishment for people who gank/grief others. I'm not saying it shd be prevented completely... heaven forbid... i'm just saying there shd be repercussions more heavy than the ones in place. In eve, there are pirates and griefers but they are in the minority because there are serious repercussions to doing that kinda thing, which means there are areas in eve (hisec) that, while NOT 100% safe, they are safe to a decent point and psople who wish to learn the game can stay there.
2) there's no sticky targeting, this might just be me but i hate accidentally attacking an ally simply because i can't target who i want to target. if sticky targeting is too far, then perhaps a toggle that you could set to make your attacks not hit party/clan members. ya, that'd work, i like that.
if these were in the works, i'm sold on DF and it would be a great compliment to my almost 100% eve diet
RIP Ribbitribbitt you are missed, kid.
Currently Playing EVE, ESO
Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and not clothed.
Dwight D Eisenhower
My optimism wears heavy boots and is loud.
Henry Rollins
I don't prefer sticky targeting, but I think they could've added more options for combat rather than just strafing around spamming M1, doesnt require very much combat strategy or thought beyond twitch skills.
He who keeps his cool best wins.
Ganker/griefers are a very low percentage of the population. The big ones (trade gankers/constant noob griefers) are already KoS for almost the entire playerbase.
Most of the so called "ganker/griefers" are just players killing other races to knock off alignment hits, or people hunting gatherers for their resources. Doesn't help that lots of people don't bank when they have 250+ ore and 3+ rare ores on them. It just makes gatherers attractive targets.
In Dwarflands, next to a starter city, I usually don't get attacked more than twice in a 10 hour period.
Friendly fire is an integral part of the game. I laugh when I watch 4 guys all clusterfuck in melee to try to kill one guy, and all four end up low enough for another guy to simply pick off.
Learn to not hit your teammates, or work on your teamwork until you guys know exactly what to do when to avoid hitting each other.
Uh... friendly fire PREVENTS the stafing around spamming M1. It's apparent when you see 4 guys all try to melee down one guy, and have all 4 guys all bring each other to less than 20% health.
If you join a clan it makes the game even more fun. The community is quite bad, imo, but right when I got into a clan it was the complete opposite: everyone was helpful, giving, and friendly.
1. What I'm saying is that making 30% of the land useless to vets is not a good idea at all. Vets can bank, harvest, craft and help out newbs if they want. Or attack them if they want. That's the great thing about it. It allows that freedom. Tiered PvP starts segregating the gamers and taking away bits of freedom currently available. Let vets gank newbs or anyone in safe zones if they want, but make them pay for it.
2. What guards? I'm talking about guard towers, not guards. In EVE it doesn't take long at all for a vet to kill a newb in their newby frigate. They will almost always be able to kill them before Concord shows up. The deal is that once Concord does show up, they're toast. Also, they are flagged as an aggressor and lose some freedom in high-sec space. Read up on EVE high-sec, kill rights and Concord. It's really well thought out.
So if you have to have a "safe zone" in DF, here's how I'd do it:
a. Increase the number of guard towers around newb cities and nearby areas and increase their range and power.
b. Have guard towers around or near some (not all) newb mob spawns like gobs and trolls to make it easier to get your initial skill gains. a and b together would not equal more than 10% of the game world.
c. If a vet attacks someone (newb or vet) in a safe zone, he's flagged as an aggressor and is KOS by the guard towers at any safe zone, even if they attacked someone at another safe zone and somehow got away. that will make it much harder for a newb ganker to go from zone to zone picking off newbs. they can get rid of their "aggressor" or red status by killing enemy faction players outside of safe zones, which should mean more challenging PvP fights to regain blue.
d. They can be fully looted if they are killed by guard towers in the safe zone, which is another incentive not to gank people in safe zones. You lose your shit.
That would need to be fleshed out more and fine-tunes I'm sure, but that's the general gist of how I would approach safe zones in DF.
Current: None
Played: WoW, CoX, SWG, LotRO, EVE, AoC, VG, CO, Ryzom, DF, WAR
Tried: Lineage2, Dofus, EQ2, CoS, FE, UO, Wurm, Wakfu
Future: The Repopulation, ArcheAge, Black Desert, EQN
Reason to try darkfall, offline character progression that will soon take place. The day i will resub and the day i will never get banned from mmorpg.com again for my exploit comments.
C:\Users\FF\Desktop\spin move.gif
I was speaking more in terms of 1v1, sorry for not clarifying. It seems like there's nothing to pay attention to besides your health/stam/mana, the target and your cursor.
He who keeps his cool best wins.