That would be because the owners didn't do their research before opening the restaurant and over-estimated how much business they'd get.
I don't think anyone, including AV, has been under the delusion that they'd have a MASSIVE following with a game like DF. Certainly no one following the game (well, except for a few of the more extreme fans) ever had that expectation. People going as far back as months before launch knew it. The game is designed for a specific niche of players. PvP is a niche. Open FFA PvP with full loot is a niche of that niche. AV were limiting the population potential of DF from the time it was on the drawing board... and I'm sure they knew it.
In other words, you say that AV never wanted to get more subs than they have now.
Sorry, but I am not buying that one. Darkfall is a business like any other and as such it tries to make as much money as possible.
Going non-mainstream is fine, losing subs because of that is not. That is stupid and/or failure in design.
Strawman.
That's not what I said and you know it. Nice try though.
Of course they'd like as many subs as they can get... Any business would. However they also must have known that the kind of game they're making would not appeal to a broader audience, but they designed it that way anyway.
They have also said that they were trying to make a MMO that recaptured the more open and raw feeling of old UO, a setting that - again - they surely realize isn't "en vogue" these days. Yet they made the game that way anyway.
PvP is a niche. FFA PvP is a niche of that. Open PvP with full loot is a niche of that. That's a pretty damn limited population. I'm fairly certain AV knew this, but they made the game that way anyway.
They're sticking to what they want DF to be. And if DF fails because of that - by their own definition and on their own numbers, not yours or anyone else's - then that's their problem to deal with, is it not? Might be disappointing to some around here, but a group of "disenfranchised" forum goers crying "fail!" from their mountaintops likely doesn't quite carry "mandate" status with AV.
The argument I was responding to suggested they should make changes to make it more mainstream and appeal to more people. That same person also argued for consensual PvP and PvE servers to be implemented. In other words, just give up on what they set out to make and start down the road of "more accessibility" to try and get more players. One might call it "WoWifying" it.
Oh, and to point out the obvious... New character models, new mobs, a large-scale revamp of the game coming in the future. GMs who actually get involved in-game, such as for the current Halloween event, or take interest in what their players are doing... Not signs of a MMO that's "failing". Want an example of failing MMOs? -points to APB, Tabula Rasa and others that have shut down inside their first year-.
Also, Badaboom pointed out, they're expanding their staff, they've moved to a new office..
What part about all that, exactly, says "failure in design" to you? I mean, besides the fact that *you* don't like it.
You know what that sounds (text in yellow)? Its like me boasting "I got a 200% increase in salary!", "wow, thats great. Do you earn 100K+ now?", "Nope, I was working for free.".
"as much as they can" in a context of "niche game" is just that - a small part of a very small player base. They obviously overestmated the amount of FFA PvP Full loot playerbase. Hence why the increase in skill gain and such - they are trying to increase that playerbase. A large portion of practically nothing is still practically nothing. Nice try though.
So people are complaining that an FFA pvp designed mmorpg has ffa pvp in it and that in a game with progression they cannot compete with vets from day one?
It's one thing to bemoan the length of a grind, it's quite another to pick a specifically targeted game and decry the very core mechanics it is built upon.
Remind me to go on the WoW forums and complain that it isn't a full loot ffa pvp game and that I can't do high level raids from day one.
And no, changing the grind is to appeal to those interested in ffa full loot pvp games who don't want to spend months on end grinding skills in the first place. As I said the grind aspect could and should be changed, the core mechanics are fine.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
I never had a blast. Couldn't find a single damn person that could help me. I was stuck alone trying to learn the game. I want to buy it though. it was fun. Just wish the community was a bit more open to help
In case of DF niche means that they target group of people who played AC on Darktide server, Shadowbane, DAoC on Mordred server, and try to make best game for them.
That is what I am saying, targeted market is tiny, something you cannot grow upon and only way to grow on MMO market is to gain more subs. Which means opening your game to larger audience but tiny minority.
All the games you listed are pretty good example of future Darkfall is going towards, for reasons described above.
... do you think they don't know this?
Seriously, Gd... You're here saying all this as though you're privy to some kind of super-secret insider info that no one at AV is aware of... and if only they'd listen to you they'd be doing *so* much better!
Well, a quick look at recent history (as in the past few years) has proven that "trying for a bigger market" doesn't guarantee success. In a number of cases, it's resulted in very underwhelming results and even a number of failures; and I mean *true* failures where the game was taken offline.
Even SE, with all their money and experience in game development, including a MMO, got it wrong when they tried to design FFXIV to "appeal to more people". In a similar way, SE tried to take what is decidedly a very "niche" style of gameplay, and tried to shoe-horn more "casual friendly" elements into it. It didn't work and now the game is being slammed for it.
NCSoft has been steadily trying to make Lineage 2 "more accessible to more people" over the past couple years at least... yet its population has remained in a steady decline. They've gone from about 8 or 9 servers in their Western market down to 2 as of a recent merge. Lineage 2 was at its healthiest when it was at its harshest, and most focused on a niche market. As NC has steadily changed the game to "appeal to a broader audience", people have continued to say "this just isn't an exciting game anymore". So, indeed it can be argued that NCSoft's efforts to make L2 appeal to *more* people has failed to do so and, in fact, has resulted in a continually declining playerbase. Why? At least in part because it was becoming too casual-friendly for those who enjoyed its more harsh environment, while it still wasn't "casual enough" for those looking for a more casual friendly experience. By trying to cater to more people, they ended up appealing to fewer, losing more and more long-time players in the process.
SOE gambled their existing playerbase in SWG in hopes that changing the game to be more "casual friendly" would bring in larger numbers. They lost that bet and the resulting backlash is legendary.
Time and again, in example after example, changing a game with the ideal of "appealing to more people" has simply not panned out favorably. It's too much change for those who liked the game for what it was, and it's "never enough" for those the changes are intended to attract. It's a lose/lose situation.
Trying to make a FFA PvP MMO with full loot that also appeals to a wider audience... well... oil and water. Just sayin'.
Has it occurred to you that AV very *deliberately* have targeted a very niche playerbase who would enjoy the kind of game they've made? I very well remember reading an interview where it was stated that AV set out to make a MMO that *they* would want to play'; someting that would recapture the experience they got playing old school UO. Turning around and making a game "more widely accessible" would require them to eliminate or at least neuter the aspects of the game that makes it the kind of experience it is. In othe words... they would have to make DF into something other than what it was intended to be. At the very least, full loot would have to go.
Yeah, if you compete withing mainstreem you have a higher chance of failure. But DF is not like an ordinary mainstream MMO. It CAN become more mainstream without loosing its niche appeal. Its like, you dont want to invest into a stock market because you are afraid to lose your investment. Well guess what, burying your money into the ground is even worse investment. DF has a great potential to become a mainstream in its own MMO category. But its potential is wasted with griefer-promoting mechanics, grindy gameplay and limited RPG elements.
That's not what I said and you know it. Nice try though.
Yes, it is pretty much what you said and only repeat in your reply. I don't have much more to add...
Your argument is basically that whatever AV is doing, is fine as long as they are happy with the result, which is silly.
I have already pointed out that Darkfall is a business and as such, from business perspective, being focused on tiny minority of the player base isn't a smart move. AV desires are irrelevant, claimed market share and revenue is what matters.
Originally posted by WSIMike
Trying to make a FFA PvP MMO with full loot that also appeals to a wider audience... well... oil and water. Just sayin'.
EVE Online does have full loot FFA PVP and +300k subs. Why? Because they got the message that making the game unrestricted FFA that caters to only 0.0 citizens would not get them anywhere.
MMO market is extremely competitive and if you are not growing and stale, you will be left behind and die.
Trying to be a 'niche' game just for sake of being 'niche' is dumb. Fine for your hobby, bad for business.
Dont mind him, he has Cartman-park syndrome. The park belongs to him and only to him. Noone else is allowed.
Allow me to repeat what Mike said earlier, the reason game makers make nitche games is because a lot of games that tried to appeal to a broad audience have failed. Trying to be appeal to the masses will never satisfy anyone.
Uhm, yes you can. You ever heard of WoW? It appealed to the masses and they have... millions of customers! I guess they are all unsatisfied, eh?
Allow me to repeat what Mike said earlier, the reason game makers make nitche games is because a lot of games that tried to appeal to a broad audience have failed. Trying to be appeal to the masses will never satisfy anyone.
Uhm, yes you can. You ever heard of WoW? It appealed to the masses and they have... millions of customers! I guess they are all unsatisfied, eh?
Something you don't seem to get is that being another "me too" is not good model for business. Why?
You end up commoditizing the business lowering profit margins
You have nothing that differentiates you MMO from somoene else and no reason for people to try your product
I don't see why people want to be able to compete against vets so quickly. I want to level my guy up, then compete against other people who have leveled their guy up, and may the best leveled up guy win based 80% on our skill strategy and tactics, and 20% on pre-fight choices, such as "which gear to wear?" and "which abilities and potions should I bring?".
Its not that much competing with the vets, as not being thrown around like some rag doll whenever a vet farts at u. I like PvP, but I like fair PvP. I don't like killing noobs that stand no chance against me, nor do I like being the noob, getting attacked and unable to defend myself because of the mechanics of the game. Its just a bad mechanic to throw into the ring everybody - pro-boxers, amature-boxers, housewives and little kids. You gotta separate them, kids fight kids, housewives fight housewives, etc etc. Its no fun when you can't play for hours just because some dude is red and he wants to get rid of his status as fast as he can - that means farming us, noobs. What joy that is for us! WEEEEEE. Can I get ganked one more time, kind sir? Pleeeeease?
I'm convinced DF is not the game for you. You're wanting something more like an MMOFPS.
Current: None Played: WoW, CoX, SWG, LotRO, EVE, AoC, VG, CO, Ryzom, DF, WAR Tried: Lineage2, Dofus, EQ2, CoS, FE, UO, Wurm, Wakfu Future: The Repopulation, ArcheAge, Black Desert, EQN
Just curious. When was the last time you ACTUALLY logged in and played? I'm pretty sure you haven't in the last year (if you have ever).
The grind in DFO is no different than even WoW for end game competitive gear. I know MANY who have become competitive in 1-2 months. That si about the same as any other game on the market 9outside EvE which is longer).
You can't be competetive in 1-2 months if you are constantly farmed by vets. And please don't tell me it doesn't happen because it does happen. Even on PvP servers in WoW you still can be safe from PvP for the first 20 levels. Further more, you can grind your way into 80s by dungeon grinding without ever doing PvP. Yeah its grindy and it sucks but you chose it that way. DF gives you no choice.
PvE servers have even more choices then PvP - you can level up through some really nice lore without ever being ganked.
You want to be ganked and experience the thrill of impending danger? You can.
You want to grind dungeons for best loot? You can.
You want to participate in fair PvP? You can.
You want to do trade works? You can.
Never are you forced to do one thing or the other. So yeah, DFO has totally different grind - it is noticed because it is forced upon you within the context of PvP. Its too linear and too predictable. From that perspective, WoW is more sandbox because you can do what you wan't to do without being forced to do other things.
Does the game have significantly improved animations and sound compared to launch?
If not, then pass.
Yes. The animations were greatly improved recently. AV did a nice job on it.
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
I don't see why people want to be able to compete against vets so quickly. I want to level my guy up, then compete against other people who have leveled their guy up, and may the best leveled up guy win based 80% on our skill strategy and tactics, and 20% on pre-fight choices, such as "which gear to wear?" and "which abilities and potions should I bring?".
Its not that much competing with the vets, as not being thrown around like some rag doll whenever a vet farts at u. I like PvP, but I like fair PvP. I don't like killing noobs that stand no chance against me, nor do I like being the noob, getting attacked and unable to defend myself because of the mechanics of the game. Its just a bad mechanic to throw into the ring everybody - pro-boxers, amature-boxers, housewives and little kids. You gotta separate them, kids fight kids, housewives fight housewives, etc etc. Its no fun when you can't play for hours just because some dude is red and he wants to get rid of his status as fast as he can - that means farming us, noobs. What joy that is for us! WEEEEEE. Can I get ganked one more time, kind sir? Pleeeeease?
I'm convinced DF is not the game for you. You're wanting something more like an MMOFPS.
I think I know myself better then you. I wan't to play DF at my own pace, without being ganked or forced to do things I do not want to do. Yes, DF is not that game now, but it is slowly moving in that direction. Maybe in a year or two it will become what I wish it to become. In the meanwhile, I will keep voicing my wishes so that AV may look at it and understand what I want. Its up to them to implement it or not. If they do, they will gain many more customers like myself. Please don't tell me DF is not for us because games change. DF changed several times already.
PvE servers have even more choices then PvP - you can level up through some really nice lore without ever being ganked.
......
Never are you forced to do one thing or the other. So yeah, DFO has totally different grind - it is noticed because it is forced upon you within the context of PvP. Its too linear and too predictable. From that perspective, WoW is more sandbox because you can do what you wan't to do without being forced to do other things.
If you think there is only "1 path" to follow you haven't done much in the game.
Maybe you should stick with WoW and move on then. This game is clearly not for you.
Just curious. When was the last time you ACTUALLY logged in and played? I'm pretty sure you haven't in the last year (if you have ever).
The grind in DFO is no different than even WoW for end game competitive gear. I know MANY who have become competitive in 1-2 months. That si about the same as any other game on the market 9outside EvE which is longer).
You can't be competetive in 1-2 months if you are constantly farmed by vets. And please don't tell me it doesn't happen because it does happen. Even on PvP servers in WoW you still can be safe from PvP for the first 20 levels. Further more, you can grind your way into 80s by dungeon grinding without ever doing PvP. Yeah its grindy and it sucks but you chose it that way. DF gives you no choice.
PvE servers have even more choices then PvP - you can level up through some really nice lore without ever being ganked.
You want to be ganked and experience the thrill of impending danger? You can.
You want to grind dungeons for best loot? You can.
You want to participate in fair PvP? You can.
You want to do trade works? You can.
Never are you forced to do one thing or the other. So yeah, DFO has totally different grind - it is noticed because it is forced upon you within the context of PvP. Its too linear and too predictable. From that perspective, WoW is more sandbox because you can do what you wan't to do without being forced to do other things.
Not defending Darkfall but I dont think you understand the concept of sandbox. A themepark with lots of choices is just a themepark with many different rides. A sandbox has no linear path for you to take and you rather live in the world rather than living in a themepark where you take rides.
That being said, when I played Darkfall a year ago, it was a pretty shitty sandbox because you need things to do even in a sandbox and Darkfall, then, was basically a 3D engine where ganking was rampant because there was not much else fun/interesting things to do.
EDIT: Just want to stress the fact that I am talking about Darkfall one year ago and not now. I have no idea how it is now.
Allow me to repeat what Mike said earlier, the reason game makers make nitche games is because a lot of games that tried to appeal to a broad audience have failed. Trying to be appeal to the masses will never satisfy anyone.
Uhm, yes you can. You ever heard of WoW? It appealed to the masses and they have... millions of customers! I guess they are all unsatisfied, eh?
Something you don't seem to get is that being another "me too" is not good model for business. Why?
You end up commoditizing the business lowering profit margins
You have nothing that differentiates you MMO from somoene else and no reason for people to try your product
Al I hear "Blah blah blah market blah blah blah commodity".
FACT: "Trying to be appeal to the masses will never satisfy anyone" is a false statment.
PFOOF OF FACT: WoW
Please spare me all the mumbo jumbo, I didn't do all that well in economics classes. I did fairly good in the reality classes. I see reality for what it is, not what the economic model tells me it should be.
I don't see why people want to be able to compete against vets so quickly. I want to level my guy up, then compete against other people who have leveled their guy up, and may the best leveled up guy win based 80% on our skill strategy and tactics, and 20% on pre-fight choices, such as "which gear to wear?" and "which abilities and potions should I bring?".
Its not that much competing with the vets, as not being thrown around like some rag doll whenever a vet farts at u. I like PvP, but I like fair PvP. I don't like killing noobs that stand no chance against me, nor do I like being the noob, getting attacked and unable to defend myself because of the mechanics of the game. Its just a bad mechanic to throw into the ring everybody - pro-boxers, amature-boxers, housewives and little kids. You gotta separate them, kids fight kids, housewives fight housewives, etc etc. Its no fun when you can't play for hours just because some dude is red and he wants to get rid of his status as fast as he can - that means farming us, noobs. What joy that is for us! WEEEEEE. Can I get ganked one more time, kind sir? Pleeeeease?
I'm convinced DF is not the game for you. You're wanting something more like an MMOFPS.
I think I know myself better then you. I wan't to play DF at my own pace, without being ganked or forced to do things I do not want to do. Yes, DF is not that game now, but it is slowly moving in that direction. Maybe in a year or two it will become what I wish it to become. In the meanwhile, I will keep voicing my wishes so that AV may look at it and understand what I want. Its up to them to implement it or not. If they do, they will gain many more customers like myself. Please don't tell me DF is not for us because games change. DF changed several times already.
Ease up, Turbo. You can play DF at your own pace. I did for half a year.
DF is NOT the game for you if you want to play "without being ganked". FFS, it's a FFA PvP game! Yes, games change, but what you're wanting is definitely an MMOFPS. You keep harping on phrases like "fair PvP" and "no ganking". In a FFA PvP game with skill progression, there can be no "fair PvP". Not even in EVE.
Current: None Played: WoW, CoX, SWG, LotRO, EVE, AoC, VG, CO, Ryzom, DF, WAR Tried: Lineage2, Dofus, EQ2, CoS, FE, UO, Wurm, Wakfu Future: The Repopulation, ArcheAge, Black Desert, EQN
Allow me to repeat what Mike said earlier, the reason game makers make nitche games is because a lot of games that tried to appeal to a broad audience have failed. Trying to be appeal to the masses will never satisfy anyone.
Uhm, yes you can. You ever heard of WoW? It appealed to the masses and they have... millions of customers! I guess they are all unsatisfied, eh?
Something you don't seem to get is that being another "me too" is not good model for business. Why?
You end up commoditizing the business lowering profit margins
You have nothing that differentiates you MMO from somoene else and no reason for people to try your product
Al I hear "Blah blah blah market blah blah blah commodity".
FACT: "Trying to be appeal to the masses will never satisfy anyone" is a false statment.
PFOOF OF FACT: WoW
Please spare me all the mumbo jumbo, I didn't do all that well in economics classes. I did fairly good in the reality classes. I see reality for what it is, not what the economic model tells me it should be.
If people wanted to play a WoW type game then they would play WoW. Time and time again that has been proven true and why competing against WoW is not good for business.
There are some pretty funny opinions in this thread (like those of that dude who doesn't get the concept of niche game and target audience).
I played DFO for the 1 week trial earlier this year, and it was fun.. the reason I didn't stick around was time.. I just don't have time to play mmos like that, and casual kiddy crap like WoW just doesn't appeal to me.
I got ganked once or twice once the newbie protection wore off.. no biggy.. Mostly I recall running around scavenging the battleground after some vets had a go at it, and slaying goblins and such.
Those npc's had better AI than most npcs in mmo's, I recall.. that was great.
You can't be competetive in 1-2 months if you are constantly farmed by vets. And please don't tell me it doesn't happen because it does happen.
So you are 'constantly' farmed by vets? Really?
He just needed to find a quieter home (not hard to do at all, IMO), and to spend some time scouting out various of the less busy spawns. People coming from other games sometimes seem to have a lot of difficulty figuring out where to go and just get frustrated after getting demolished at a goblin spawn over and over again.
Even though it hasn't been updated in awhile this map is your friend.
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
Allow me to repeat what Mike said earlier, the reason game makers make nitche games is because a lot of games that tried to appeal to a broad audience have failed. Trying to be appeal to the masses will never satisfy anyone.
Uhm, yes you can. You ever heard of WoW? It appealed to the masses and they have... millions of customers! I guess they are all unsatisfied, eh?
Something you don't seem to get is that being another "me too" is not good model for business. Why?
You end up commoditizing the business lowering profit margins
You have nothing that differentiates you MMO from somoene else and no reason for people to try your product
Al I hear "Blah blah blah market blah blah blah commodity".
FACT: "Trying to be appeal to the masses will never satisfy anyone" is a false statment.
PFOOF OF FACT: WoW
Please spare me all the mumbo jumbo, I didn't do all that well in economics classes. I did fairly good in the reality classes. I see reality for what it is, not what the economic model tells me it should be.
If people wanted to play a WoW type game then they would play WoW. Time and time again that has been proven true and why competing against WoW is not good for business.
Just my 2 cents on this matter, you don't have to be like WoW to have mass appeal... you just need to design features and the game more for everyone rather than just niche players.
With that said, I like that DFO is niche, we have far to few niche games imho and to many that try to go for mass appeal with the dumb notion in there head that to do that they must be like WoW.
Just wanted to mention again, as I have in other threads, that after three weeks of playing DF after a long break from the time of release, I can say that this alleged ganking or griefing that can supposedly ruin hours of game time just doesn't occur. Of the times I've been PK'ed (8 in counting), four of those (half) revived me after killing me, gave me tips on how to better survive, and two of those four gave me items (a horse, a suit of armor, some iron ore, some gold). Really, this community of "gankers and griefers" is pretty polite, and most of the time they seem pretty interested in helping promote subscriptions by lending aid to newer players. Sure, half of those PK's killed me and took my resources, but I was never dry looted. It's not like any of these in-game murderers were looking to absolutely shit on my good time, they just needed resources or items they were otherwise uninterested in collecting or paying for themselves. That's the way FFA PvP MMO's work.
I'd also like to mention that, even though my stats are still low, after three weeks I can definitely tell the difference in my characters skills and abilities. Whereas I have been largely ineffective, recently I've begun fighting back when the situation arises, and last night I had an extremely even fight with another player that claimed his skills were much higher (he killed me, and revived me, later inviting me to his guild with a hamlet to help teach me what's up). So, as for needing months and months to be completely viable in PvP: that's rubbish. You might need half a year to compete against the longest played characters in the world, but I think that it's safe to say you'll need a large time investment in any MMO to be competitive with the oldschool, hardcore, end-game players (the time may vary, but it's there regardless of the title). The argument that themeparks don't pit you against end-game players when you're new, like a level 1 vs. a level 80 in WoW, doesn't even matter or apply in this situation: the field of competition is NOT level in any FFA PvP game. Some of us like this, and as a player it's the first thing I mentioned to my friends when stating I started playing Darkfall again: the world feels dangerous and scary. Other MMO's simply don't offer the same atmosphere, and part of that is being vulnerable. It's a different taste that not everyone is going to have or enjoy, which certainly has its merits and flaws as any other MMO does.
"This is life! We suffer and slave and expire. That's it!" -Bernard Black (Dylan Moran)
Originally posted by Azdul If majority of PvP corporations require 8-9 months of PvP skills training, it doesn't mean that you can't PvP at all without those skills.... snip ...Nevertheless, when majority of EvE PvP corporations list 8-9 months of training as entry requirement for new members - it does mean that you're becoming more powerful in PvP during those 8-9 months.
No, that is not how EVE works.
You were already told that the SP requirement is for 0.0 warfare only. There are many options for new players how to be fully viable in PVP since day 1.
Comments
You know what that sounds (text in yellow)? Its like me boasting "I got a 200% increase in salary!", "wow, thats great. Do you earn 100K+ now?", "Nope, I was working for free.".
"as much as they can" in a context of "niche game" is just that - a small part of a very small player base. They obviously overestmated the amount of FFA PvP Full loot playerbase. Hence why the increase in skill gain and such - they are trying to increase that playerbase. A large portion of practically nothing is still practically nothing. Nice try though.
I am the type of player where I like to do everything and anything from time to time.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor - pre-WW2 genocide.
So people are complaining that an FFA pvp designed mmorpg has ffa pvp in it and that in a game with progression they cannot compete with vets from day one?
It's one thing to bemoan the length of a grind, it's quite another to pick a specifically targeted game and decry the very core mechanics it is built upon.
Remind me to go on the WoW forums and complain that it isn't a full loot ffa pvp game and that I can't do high level raids from day one.
And no, changing the grind is to appeal to those interested in ffa full loot pvp games who don't want to spend months on end grinding skills in the first place. As I said the grind aspect could and should be changed, the core mechanics are fine.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
I never had a blast. Couldn't find a single damn person that could help me. I was stuck alone trying to learn the game. I want to buy it though. it was fun. Just wish the community was a bit more open to help
Yeah, if you compete withing mainstreem you have a higher chance of failure. But DF is not like an ordinary mainstream MMO. It CAN become more mainstream without loosing its niche appeal. Its like, you dont want to invest into a stock market because you are afraid to lose your investment. Well guess what, burying your money into the ground is even worse investment. DF has a great potential to become a mainstream in its own MMO category. But its potential is wasted with griefer-promoting mechanics, grindy gameplay and limited RPG elements.
I am the type of player where I like to do everything and anything from time to time.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor - pre-WW2 genocide.
Dont mind him, he has Cartman-park syndrome. The park belongs to him and only to him. Noone else is allowed.
I am the type of player where I like to do everything and anything from time to time.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor - pre-WW2 genocide.
Uhm, yes you can. You ever heard of WoW? It appealed to the masses and they have... millions of customers! I guess they are all unsatisfied, eh?
I am the type of player where I like to do everything and anything from time to time.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor - pre-WW2 genocide.
I'm convinced DF is not the game for you. You're wanting something more like an MMOFPS.
Current: None
Played: WoW, CoX, SWG, LotRO, EVE, AoC, VG, CO, Ryzom, DF, WAR
Tried: Lineage2, Dofus, EQ2, CoS, FE, UO, Wurm, Wakfu
Future: The Repopulation, ArcheAge, Black Desert, EQN
You can't be competetive in 1-2 months if you are constantly farmed by vets. And please don't tell me it doesn't happen because it does happen. Even on PvP servers in WoW you still can be safe from PvP for the first 20 levels. Further more, you can grind your way into 80s by dungeon grinding without ever doing PvP. Yeah its grindy and it sucks but you chose it that way. DF gives you no choice.
PvE servers have even more choices then PvP - you can level up through some really nice lore without ever being ganked.
You want to be ganked and experience the thrill of impending danger? You can.
You want to grind dungeons for best loot? You can.
You want to participate in fair PvP? You can.
You want to do trade works? You can.
Never are you forced to do one thing or the other. So yeah, DFO has totally different grind - it is noticed because it is forced upon you within the context of PvP. Its too linear and too predictable. From that perspective, WoW is more sandbox because you can do what you wan't to do without being forced to do other things.
I am the type of player where I like to do everything and anything from time to time.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor - pre-WW2 genocide.
Does the game have significantly improved animations and sound compared to launch?
If not, then pass.
My gaming blog
Incoming. Check back after the next expansion.
PS: Re animations: http://www.darkfallonline.com/blog/motion-capture-impressions-gallore/
Re sound: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wdxx4T6q_Nc
Yes. The animations were greatly improved recently. AV did a nice job on it.
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
I think I know myself better then you. I wan't to play DF at my own pace, without being ganked or forced to do things I do not want to do. Yes, DF is not that game now, but it is slowly moving in that direction. Maybe in a year or two it will become what I wish it to become. In the meanwhile, I will keep voicing my wishes so that AV may look at it and understand what I want. Its up to them to implement it or not. If they do, they will gain many more customers like myself. Please don't tell me DF is not for us because games change. DF changed several times already.
I am the type of player where I like to do everything and anything from time to time.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor - pre-WW2 genocide.
So you are 'constantly' farmed by vets? Really?
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
If you think there is only "1 path" to follow you haven't done much in the game.
Maybe you should stick with WoW and move on then. This game is clearly not for you.
Not defending Darkfall but I dont think you understand the concept of sandbox. A themepark with lots of choices is just a themepark with many different rides. A sandbox has no linear path for you to take and you rather live in the world rather than living in a themepark where you take rides.
That being said, when I played Darkfall a year ago, it was a pretty shitty sandbox because you need things to do even in a sandbox and Darkfall, then, was basically a 3D engine where ganking was rampant because there was not much else fun/interesting things to do.
EDIT: Just want to stress the fact that I am talking about Darkfall one year ago and not now. I have no idea how it is now.
My gaming blog
Al I hear "Blah blah blah market blah blah blah commodity".
FACT: "Trying to be appeal to the masses will never satisfy anyone" is a false statment.
PFOOF OF FACT: WoW
Please spare me all the mumbo jumbo, I didn't do all that well in economics classes. I did fairly good in the reality classes. I see reality for what it is, not what the economic model tells me it should be.
I am the type of player where I like to do everything and anything from time to time.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor - pre-WW2 genocide.
Ease up, Turbo. You can play DF at your own pace. I did for half a year.
DF is NOT the game for you if you want to play "without being ganked". FFS, it's a FFA PvP game! Yes, games change, but what you're wanting is definitely an MMOFPS. You keep harping on phrases like "fair PvP" and "no ganking". In a FFA PvP game with skill progression, there can be no "fair PvP". Not even in EVE.
Current: None
Played: WoW, CoX, SWG, LotRO, EVE, AoC, VG, CO, Ryzom, DF, WAR
Tried: Lineage2, Dofus, EQ2, CoS, FE, UO, Wurm, Wakfu
Future: The Repopulation, ArcheAge, Black Desert, EQN
If people wanted to play a WoW type game then they would play WoW. Time and time again that has been proven true and why competing against WoW is not good for business.
There are some pretty funny opinions in this thread (like those of that dude who doesn't get the concept of niche game and target audience).
I played DFO for the 1 week trial earlier this year, and it was fun.. the reason I didn't stick around was time.. I just don't have time to play mmos like that, and casual kiddy crap like WoW just doesn't appeal to me.
I got ganked once or twice once the newbie protection wore off.. no biggy.. Mostly I recall running around scavenging the battleground after some vets had a go at it, and slaying goblins and such.
Those npc's had better AI than most npcs in mmo's, I recall.. that was great.
Who so harsh? Mike kept his post civil and honest so far.
Yes, he was not really replying to any points I made but that's fine.
He just needed to find a quieter home (not hard to do at all, IMO), and to spend some time scouting out various of the less busy spawns. People coming from other games sometimes seem to have a lot of difficulty figuring out where to go and just get frustrated after getting demolished at a goblin spawn over and over again.
Even though it hasn't been updated in awhile this map is your friend.
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
Just my 2 cents on this matter, you don't have to be like WoW to have mass appeal... you just need to design features and the game more for everyone rather than just niche players.
With that said, I like that DFO is niche, we have far to few niche games imho and to many that try to go for mass appeal with the dumb notion in there head that to do that they must be like WoW.
Just wanted to mention again, as I have in other threads, that after three weeks of playing DF after a long break from the time of release, I can say that this alleged ganking or griefing that can supposedly ruin hours of game time just doesn't occur. Of the times I've been PK'ed (8 in counting), four of those (half) revived me after killing me, gave me tips on how to better survive, and two of those four gave me items (a horse, a suit of armor, some iron ore, some gold). Really, this community of "gankers and griefers" is pretty polite, and most of the time they seem pretty interested in helping promote subscriptions by lending aid to newer players. Sure, half of those PK's killed me and took my resources, but I was never dry looted. It's not like any of these in-game murderers were looking to absolutely shit on my good time, they just needed resources or items they were otherwise uninterested in collecting or paying for themselves. That's the way FFA PvP MMO's work.
I'd also like to mention that, even though my stats are still low, after three weeks I can definitely tell the difference in my characters skills and abilities. Whereas I have been largely ineffective, recently I've begun fighting back when the situation arises, and last night I had an extremely even fight with another player that claimed his skills were much higher (he killed me, and revived me, later inviting me to his guild with a hamlet to help teach me what's up). So, as for needing months and months to be completely viable in PvP: that's rubbish. You might need half a year to compete against the longest played characters in the world, but I think that it's safe to say you'll need a large time investment in any MMO to be competitive with the oldschool, hardcore, end-game players (the time may vary, but it's there regardless of the title). The argument that themeparks don't pit you against end-game players when you're new, like a level 1 vs. a level 80 in WoW, doesn't even matter or apply in this situation: the field of competition is NOT level in any FFA PvP game. Some of us like this, and as a player it's the first thing I mentioned to my friends when stating I started playing Darkfall again: the world feels dangerous and scary. Other MMO's simply don't offer the same atmosphere, and part of that is being vulnerable. It's a different taste that not everyone is going to have or enjoy, which certainly has its merits and flaws as any other MMO does.
"This is life! We suffer and slave and expire. That's it!" -Bernard Black (Dylan Moran)
No, that is not how EVE works.
You were already told that the SP requirement is for 0.0 warfare only. There are many options for new players how to be fully viable in PVP since day 1.