That would be because the owners didn't do their research before opening the restaurant and over-estimated how much business they'd get.
I don't think anyone, including AV, has been under the delusion that they'd have a MASSIVE following with a game like DF. Certainly no one following the game (well, except for a few of the more extreme fans) ever had that expectation. People going as far back as months before launch knew it. The game is designed for a specific niche of players. PvP is a niche. Open FFA PvP with full loot is a niche of that niche. AV were limiting the population potential of DF from the time it was on the drawing board... and I'm sure they knew it.
In other words, you say that AV never wanted to get more subs than they have now.
Sorry, but I am not buying that one. Darkfall is a business like any other and as such it tries to make as much money as possible.
Going non-mainstream is fine, losing subs because of that is not. That is stupid and/or failure in design.
Strawman.
That's not what I said and you know it. Nice try though.
Of course they'd like as many subs as they can get... Any business would. However they also must have known that the kind of game they're making would not appeal to a broader audience, but they designed it that way anyway.
They have also said that they were trying to make a MMO that recaptured the more open and raw feeling of old UO, a setting that - again - they surely realize isn't "en vogue" these days. Yet they made the game that way anyway.
PvP is a niche. FFA PvP is a niche of that. Open PvP with full loot is a niche of that. That's a pretty damn limited population. I'm fairly certain AV knew this, but they made the game that way anyway.
They're sticking to what they want DF to be. And if DF fails because of that - by their own definition and on their own numbers, not yours or anyone else's - then that's their problem to deal with, is it not? Might be disappointing to some around here, but a group of "disenfranchised" forum goers crying "fail!" from their mountaintops likely doesn't quite carry "mandate" status with AV.
The argument I was responding to suggested they should make changes to make it more mainstream and appeal to more people. That same person also argued for consensual PvP and PvE servers to be implemented. In other words, just give up on what they set out to make and start down the road of "more accessibility" to try and get more players. One might call it "WoWifying" it.
Oh, and to point out the obvious... New character models, new mobs, a large-scale revamp of the game coming in the future. GMs who actually get involved in-game, such as for the current Halloween event, or take interest in what their players are doing... Not signs of a MMO that's "failing". Want an example of failing MMOs? -points to APB, Tabula Rasa and others that have shut down inside their first year-.
Also, Badaboom pointed out, they're expanding their staff, they've moved to a new office..
What part about all that, exactly, says "failure in design" to you? I mean, besides the fact that *you* don't like it.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
In case of DF niche means that they target group of people who played AC on Darktide server, Shadowbane, DAoC on Mordred server, and try to make best game for them.
That is what I am saying, targeted market is tiny, something you cannot grow upon and only way to grow on MMO market is to gain more subs. Which means opening your game to larger audience but tiny minority.
All the games you listed are pretty good example of future Darkfall is going towards, for reasons described above.
... do you think they don't know this?
Seriously, Gd... You're here saying all this as though you're privy to some kind of super-secret insider info that no one at AV is aware of... and if only they'd listen to you they'd be doing *so* much better!
Well, a quick look at recent history (as in the past few years) has proven that "trying for a bigger market" doesn't guarantee success. In a number of cases, it's resulted in very underwhelming results and even a number of failures; and I mean *true* failures where the game was taken offline.
Even SE, with all their money and experience in game development, including a MMO, got it wrong when they tried to design FFXIV to "appeal to more people". In a similar way, SE tried to take what is decidedly a very "niche" style of gameplay, and tried to shoe-horn more "casual friendly" elements into it. It didn't work and now the game is being slammed for it.
NCSoft has been steadily trying to make Lineage 2 "more accessible to more people" over the past couple years at least... yet its population has remained in a steady decline. They've gone from about 8 or 9 servers in their Western market down to 2 as of a recent merge. Lineage 2 was at its healthiest when it was at its harshest, and most focused on a niche market. As NC has steadily changed the game to "appeal to a broader audience", people have continued to say "this just isn't an exciting game anymore". So, indeed it can be argued that NCSoft's efforts to make L2 appeal to *more* people has failed to do so and, in fact, has resulted in a continually declining playerbase. Why? At least in part because it was becoming too casual-friendly for those who enjoyed its more harsh environment, while it still wasn't "casual enough" for those looking for a more casual friendly experience. By trying to cater to more people, they ended up appealing to fewer, losing more and more long-time players in the process.
SOE gambled their existing playerbase in SWG in hopes that changing the game to be more "casual friendly" would bring in larger numbers. They lost that bet and the resulting backlash is legendary.
Time and again, in example after example, changing a game with the ideal of "appealing to more people" has simply not panned out favorably. It's too much change for those who liked the game for what it was, and it's "never enough" for those the changes are intended to attract. It's a lose/lose situation.
Trying to make a FFA PvP MMO with full loot that also appeals to a wider audience... well... oil and water. Just sayin'.
Has it occurred to you that AV very *deliberately* have targeted a very niche playerbase who would enjoy the kind of game they've made? I very well remember reading an interview where it was stated that AV set out to make a MMO that *they* would want to play'; someting that would recapture the experience they got playing old school UO. Turning around and making a game "more widely accessible" would require them to eliminate or at least neuter the aspects of the game that makes it the kind of experience it is. In othe words... they would have to make DF into something other than what it was intended to be. At the very least, full loot would have to go.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
The guy picked up 0.0 warfare which is not very suitable for new players for many reasons and ignored all the options new players have for PVP.
Manipulation only.
Darkfall will never ever be like EVE PVP wise because EVE uses deep complex combat mechanics that does indeed allow very new players to have a role and place in PVP. Scalability you won't get in twitch control games.
i dont know why people compare Eve and Darkfall - their so unrelated its just stupid, even just on the PVP side of things, their almost completely dissimilar, a DF vet has 0 chance of losing against a new player, in Eve, the new player isnt automatically squished regardless of equipment or actions, DF is a level based pvp orientated game, Eve players don't have levels, and its a hell of a lot more than just PVP... and while both games are 'niche' games, the 'niche' that DF occupies is a particularly specialised one, even more so than Eve.. and definitely in a different catagory.
The guy picked up 0.0 warfare which is not very suitable for new players for many reasons and ignored all the options new players have for PVP.
Manipulation only.
Darkfall will never ever be like EVE PVP wise because EVE uses deep complex combat mechanics that does indeed allow very new players to have a role and place in PVP. Scalability you won't get in twitch control games.
i dont know why people compare Eve and Darkfall - their so unrelated its just stupid, even just on the PVP side of things, their almost completely dissimilar, a DF vet has 0 chance of losing against a new player, in Eve, the new player isnt automatically squished regardless of equipment or actions, DF is a level based pvp orientated game, Eve players don't have levels, and its a hell of a lot more than just PVP... and while both games are 'niche' games, the 'niche' that DF occupies is a particularly specialised one, even more so than Eve.. and definitely in a different catagory.
Are you claiming that a brand-new player in Eve can go up against someone with more skills into any given build-out, superior equipment and more knowledge of the game mechanics and strategies, and not be destroyed? A more experienced and better prepared player in Eve doesn't have 0 chance of losing against a new player with next to no skills trained and newbie equipment?
I can create a new character in Eve, take my newbie ship and with absolutely minimal, or no training, go out and pick a fight with someone with months of development and not be obliterated? I'd actually have a chance to win or at least put up a serious fight?
Are you saying that in Eve it wouldn't require hours, then days then a week or longer - requiring at least a month or so altogether - to train the requisite skills to pilot a given ship and equip it with the necessary equipment suitable for the task? I'm not even accounting for the money involved to obtain said equipment and skills, nor am I even getting into the hands-on training of using said equipment and learning effective tactics against more developed and experienced players in order to not be destroyed by one.
Just like in DF, you definitely need a degree of time to develop the skills, obtain the equipment and learn the skills and tactics necessary to be effective against a veteran player. To argue otherwise is just plain untruthful.
One may revolve around twitch combat and the other more "target and fire" combat... but time is still required in both to obtain the necessary skills and equipment to be effective. It may not be "months" of time necessary... but it's not mere "hours" either.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Originally posted by WSIMike That's not what I said and you know it. Nice try though.
Yes, it is pretty much what you said and only repeat in your reply. I don't have much more to add...
Your argument is basically that whatever AV is doing, is fine as long as they are happy with the result, which is silly.
I have already pointed out that Darkfall is a business and as such, from business perspective, being focused on tiny minority of the player base isn't a smart move. AV desires are irrelevant, claimed market share and revenue is what matters.
Originally posted by WSIMike Trying to make a FFA PvP MMO with full loot that also appeals to a wider audience... well... oil and water. Just sayin'.
EVE Online does have full loot FFA PVP and +300k subs. Why? Because they got the message that making the game unrestricted FFA that caters to only 0.0 citizens would not get them anywhere.
MMO market is extremely competitive and if you are not growing and stale, you will be left behind and die.
Trying to be a 'niche' game just for sake of being 'niche' is dumb. Fine for your hobby, bad for business.
That's not what I said and you know it. Nice try though.
Yes, it is pretty much what you said and only repeat in your reply. I don't have much more to add...
Your argument is basically that whatever AV is doing, is fine as long as they are happy with the result, which is silly.
I have already pointed out that Darkfall is a business and as such, from business perspective, being focused on tiny minority of the player base isn't a smart move. AV desires are irrelevant, claimed market share and revenue is what matters.
In his reponse to you he explains why it would be bad to change their model now, as well as further goes on to explain why they decided to go after such a niche market to begin with. I don't believe you bothered to read his responces to you.
Originally posted by WSIMike
Trying to make a FFA PvP MMO with full loot that also appeals to a wider audience... well... oil and water. Just sayin'.
EVE Online does have full loot FFA PVP and +300k subs. Why? Because they got the message that making the game unrestricted FFA that caters to only 0.0 citizens would not get them anywhere.
MMO market is extremely competitive and if you are not growing and stale, you will be left behind and die.
Trying to be a 'niche' game just for sake of being 'niche' is dumb. Fine for your hobby, bad for business.
Allow me to repeat what Mike said earlier, the reason game makers make nitche games is because a lot of games that tried to appeal to a broad audience have failed. Trying to be appeal to the masses will never satisfy anyone.
The guy picked up 0.0 warfare which is not very suitable for new players for many reasons and ignored all the options new players have for PVP.
Manipulation only.
Darkfall will never ever be like EVE PVP wise because EVE uses deep complex combat mechanics that does indeed allow very new players to have a role and place in PVP. Scalability you won't get in twitch control games.
If majority of PvP corporations require 8-9 months of PvP skills training, it doesn't mean that you can't PvP at all without those skills.
There are opportunities and roles in PvP for less developed chars in both games. For example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qCMThjCYozA - Casual and new players (Sanctuary guild) simply destroyed best PvP clan on the server in battle that was considered important by both sides.
Nevertheless, when majority of EvE PvP corporations list 8-9 months of training as entry requirement for new members - it does mean that you're becoming more powerful in PvP during those 8-9 months.
PvP is a niche. FFA PvP is a niche of that. Open PvP with full loot is a niche of that. That's a pretty damn limited population.
What number of players do you consider a niche audience. AV have sold 100000 copys of this game, and everyone of those knew Darkfall was a full-loot FFA pvp-mmo. Infact that was theire selling point. This wasn`t suppose to be a regular grind mmo with a focus on purple gear, this mmo was a sandbox with a focus on war, pvp, politics.
-What if the 97000 we`ve lost didn`t had to spend their time ingame on killing stupid NPC`s to get money so they could macro magic?
-What if they didn`t had to keep their PC on every night in order to AFK swim so they could get a few lousy points in vitality and quickness?
-What if they didn`t had to do boring stuff for a year in order to get a competitive fight.
-What if they didn`t had to use a 3. party program to overcome the crappy UI.
Darkfall is a niche game, that`s right. But it`s not a niche game because it`s a FFA full-loot mmo, it`s a niche game because of the stupid long time new players have to grind in order to play this game as intended.
PvP is a niche. FFA PvP is a niche of that. Open PvP with full loot is a niche of that. That's a pretty damn limited population.
What number of players do you consider a niche audience. AV have sold 100000 copys of this game, and everyone of those knew Darkfall was a full-loot FFA pvp-mmo. Infact that was theire selling point. This wasn`t suppose to be a regular grind mmo with a focus on purple gear, this mmo was a sandbox with a focus on war, pvp, politics.
-What if the 97000 we`ve lost didn`t had to spend their time ingame on killing stupid NPC`s to get money so they could macro magic?
-What if they didn`t had to keep their PC on every night in order to AFK swim so they could get a few lousy points in vitality and quickness?
-What if they didn`t had to do boring stuff for a year in order to get a competitive fight.
-What if they didn`t had to use a 3. party program to overcome the crappy UI.
Darkfall is a niche game, that`s right. But it`s not a niche game because it`s a FFA full-loot mmo, it`s a niche game because of the stupid long time new players have to grind in order to play this game as intended.
Just curious. When was the last time you ACTUALLY logged in and played? I'm pretty sure you haven't in the last year (if you have ever).
The grind in DFO is no different than even WoW for end game competitive gear. I know MANY who have become competitive in 1-2 months. That si about the same as any other game on the market 9outside EvE which is longer).
Just curious. When was the last time you ACTUALLY logged in and played? I'm pretty sure you haven't in the last year (if you have ever).
The grind in DFO is no different than even WoW for end game competitive gear. I know MANY who have become competitive in 1-2 months. That si about the same as any other game on the market 9outside EvE which is longer).
I`m online 5 hours every day, and I`m online now. My char is competitive with almost every important spell 75+ or higher(stormblast, WOF, eyerot, begone, confusion etc.). I only got my rays to 50+ and due to my lack of AFK swimming my quickness is just 60. My health is 412 naked.
But it`s true, I haven`t really played Darkfall for almost six months. If you don`t take part in the politics and pvp you don`t play Darkfall, you only excist in Agon. All i do while I wait for AV to get new pvpers to the game is AFK harvest, melee some medium NPCs and train my rays on low level mobs. I`m not asking for an easier grind for myself, I want it for the new players.
My guild does not recruit. We have picked up 10 new players in the last month. Our allaince has picked up activity by 50% from people starting to game more wit the cooler weather. This includes mostly returning players and new players.
Training your rays is easy. playing a couple hours a day I trained every ray in the game to 50+ (3 to 75+) in ~1 week. of course i PvE harder mobs because:
A) skillup are faster (no down time)
they partially pay for the regs they drop.
Skill-ups are on par with any game on the market. However, if you do not focus or play with good guild you probably aren;t focusing enough to make progress. Same will happen in any other game as this is the equivalent of playing 5 toons instead of focusing on one. Stats are nice but they are not game changers unless you are Pvping at the very top levels which occurs AFTER you have your skills in place.
Originally posted by BuniontToes Stats are nice but they are not game changers unless you are Pvping at the very top levels.
Well that`s the point, we all PVP at the very top level the moment you enter Darkfall.
A new player can`t tell Ginger magician or any other high level to stop killing them because they are not playing at the very top level. And there is absolutly no reason to keep a high level grind in a game where gear and player skill plays an equally big part of your damage output as level.
In my opinion the level grind should be small because you have to grind your gear and train your player skill anyway. We are losing to many new players (who would love this game) simply because they can`t get past the fist six months. Just listen to the new players, they love the game the first month. The PVE is different and fun at the start, but soon they want to try the really good part of Darkfall. And we all know the gem of this game is pvp.
I like darkfall and i want it to flourish. If I didn`t care about the game I wouldn`t be here bitching all the time. I honestly think only a few small changes could make this game amongst the top 10 in number players. And all of us that had the pleasure of playing Darkfall before US1 server know how fun a Darkfall full of competitive players can be.
But it`s true, I haven`t really played Darkfall for almost six months. If you don`t take part in the politics and pvp you don`t play Darkfall, you only excist in Agon. All i do while I wait for AV to get new pvpers to the game is AFK harvest, melee some medium NPCs and train my rays on low level mobs. I`m not asking for an easier grind for myself, I want it for the new players.
Offline skilling, announced by Tasos few days ago, will help new players to skip the grind. It was necessary, if only to remove AFK-swimmers and AFK-macroers from the world, and give everyone more time to enjoy the game instead of grinding.
But it won't solve problem that some old macroers are bored
You can pretty much reduce your own fun in DF to zero, reducing possible risk of siege through alliances, and reducing possible risk of getting rolled in PvP by travelling in large group of insanely developed characters. Even with grind taken out from equation - still "playing to win" is different from "having fun".
Originally posted by BuniontToes Stats are nice but they are not game changers unless you are Pvping at the very top levels.
Well that`s the point, we all PVP at the very top level the moment you enter Darkfall.
A new player can`t tell Ginger magician or any other high level to stop killing them because they are not playing at the very top level. And there is absolutly no reason to keep a high level grind in a game where gear and player skill plays an equally big part of your damage output as level.
In my opinion the level grind should be small because you have to grind your gear and train your player skill anyway. We are losing to many new players (who would love this game) simply because they can`t get past the fist six months. Just listen to the new players, they love the game the first month. The PVE is different and fun at the start, but soon they want to try the really good part of Darkfall. And we all know the gem of this game is pvp.
I like darkfall and i want it to flourish. If I didn`t care about the game I wouldn`t be here bitching all the time. I honestly think only a few small changes could make this game amongst the top 10 in number players. And all of us that had the pleasure of playing Darkfall before US1 server know how fun a Darkfall full of competitive players can be.
If you are fightign Ginger Magician, you are not fighting at the top levels. To beat Ginger Magician you need mastery. A guy who can only gank naked crafetrs isn't much of a challenge to anyone who PvP's often.
You clearly don't understand the game mechanics and don;t know what contributes between stats, gear and skills. If your damage difference is greater than 3 pts then your issue is with gear and mastery not stats. When you are talking small differences in damage and pure enddurance the issue is either stats or you use of transfer spells.
Your argument is basically that whatever AV is doing, is fine as long as they are happy with the result, which is silly.
I have already pointed out that Darkfall is a business and as such, from business perspective, being focused on tiny minority of the player base isn't a smart move. AV desires are irrelevant, claimed market share and revenue is what matters.
What matters for business is how initial investment pays off.
After hiring few guys, whole DF development team is 12 people. Some graphics and animations are outsourced, and done by external contractors. And of course with each patch they need few days of QA team. It's not the team to compete head-to-head with Blizzard or EA-Mythic-Bioware.
They've sold 100 000 copies through their website, and it was enough to pay for 50% of development budget - just because their game was different.
It's not bad business, when compared to companies trying to copy WoW for n-th time, and competing with 10 other PvE themepark titles released around the same period.
Game sells as long as there are no other games which offer similar features, but better overall experience. DF killed Shadowbane - Ubisoft just gave up because they were unable to compete with DF.
Few years from now someone will create fantasy open-world, sandboxy PvP game, which will be better than DF in every imaginable way. But by staying true to their design, AV has few years without competition from Blizzard, SOE and EA-Mythic-Bioware.
PvP is a niche. FFA PvP is a niche of that. Open PvP with full loot is a niche of that. That's a pretty damn limited population.
What number of players do you consider a niche audience. AV have sold 100000 copys of this game, and everyone of those knew Darkfall was a full-loot FFA pvp-mmo. Infact that was theire selling point. This wasn`t suppose to be a regular grind mmo with a focus on purple gear, this mmo was a sandbox with a focus on war, pvp, politics.
-What if the 97000 we`ve lost didn`t had to spend their time ingame on killing stupid NPC`s to get money so they could macro magic?
-What if they didn`t had to keep their PC on every night in order to AFK swim so they could get a few lousy points in vitality and quickness?
-What if they didn`t had to do boring stuff for a year in order to get a competitive fight.
-What if they didn`t had to use a 3. party program to overcome the crappy UI.
Darkfall is a niche game, that`s right. But it`s not a niche game because it`s a FFA full-loot mmo, it`s a niche game because of the stupid long time new players have to grind in order to play this game as intended.
I realize it's difficult to accept that AV "doesn't see things your way", and doesn't look to arm-chair business experts in some forum for their business advice. It might be difficult to accept that a company who spent 9 years developing a game, full knowing they were catering to a very limited player base just by virtue of the kind of game they were making, has a better idea of what they're doing than some forum warriors who seem convinced "they know better". Nonetheless, it's true.
No matter how strongly you argue it or, again, insist otherwise, if they'd "done things more your way", there is no guarantee the game would be doing all that much better. Why? Because for everyone like yourself who would like such changes, there are those playing it who like it as is and would likely find themselves leaving. Also, to argue that 97,000 people all, or even mostly left for the same reason, "because of the grind", is pure conjecture. I'm fairly certain an exit interview wasn't conducted for every player who's left DF to even attempt to collect such data. I do know that among reasons I've seen given for people leaving, some have left due to the controls, some due to the look of the game, some due to finding they're not fans of FFA PvP, some for a perceived lack of PvE content... and so forth. It's been a mixed bag. The crowd arguing "too much grind" has simply been the loudest.
So, frankly, all 97,000 people leaving DF confirms (if it's even a truly valid number; I've yet to see any solid obejctive source shown for it) is that such a number of people have tried DF and decided it wasn't for them, whatever their reason. Nothing more.
Because AV isn't specifically catering to *you* or to others who have their own ideas of "what DF should be" doesn't mean they're "doing it all wrong". They're simply not "doing it your way".
Again, the fact alone that the game is still expanding, still being developed and improved, and they're still expanding their staff and office space says well enough... the game is doing well enough for AV to invest in such things, whether you or others want to accept it or not. To continue arguing "the game is failing", as some are, in light of such facts is pretty dishonest as well. There's been a number of examples in the genre just in the past few years to show that a company who's MMO is "struggling" or "dying" doesn't expand their team, move to a larger office, or set out on large, expensive tasks such as revamping or expanding the game.
The game doesn't appeal to you and you wish it were different. I've felt that many times playing MMOs. I spent $75 on the CE pre-order for FFXIV, and cancelled my account less than week into retail. I was in retail and knew what the game had, but believed that SE would surely have far more implemented at launch, as they'd stated testers were only seeing about 20% of the content. The game launched with exactly what it had in beta. 20% turned out to be 100% of more of the same. Disappointment happens. If they make sufficient changes to warrant me checking it out again, I will. If not, oh well. Life goes on.
Whether it's doing well enough for AV is up to them to decide... They know their business model. They know their financial circumstances. They know what they need to consider DF "successful enough to maintain and develop". They're the ones who put 9 years into developing the game. Seems to me they know it better than anyone here, on more levels than anyone here. Just sayin'.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
That's not what I said and you know it. Nice try though.
Yes, it is pretty much what you said and only repeat in your reply. I don't have much more to add...
Your argument is basically that whatever AV is doing, is fine as long as they are happy with the result, which is silly.
I have already pointed out that Darkfall is a business and as such, from business perspective, being focused on tiny minority of the player base isn't a smart move. AV desires are irrelevant, claimed market share and revenue is what matters.
In his reponse to you he explains why it would be bad to change their model now, as well as further goes on to explain why they decided to go after such a niche market to begin with. I don't believe you bothered to read his responces to you.
Of course he didn't... or he did and simply ignored it and cherry picked the remarks he felt he could "argue against" out of context. I know what I said and I'm sure he knows it, too. It's easier for him to just pretend I said someting else.
Originally posted by WSIMike
Trying to make a FFA PvP MMO with full loot that also appeals to a wider audience... well... oil and water. Just sayin'.
EVE Online does have full loot FFA PVP and +300k subs. Why? Because they got the message that making the game unrestricted FFA that caters to only 0.0 citizens would not get them anywhere.
MMO market is extremely competitive and if you are not growing and stale, you will be left behind and die.
Trying to be a 'niche' game just for sake of being 'niche' is dumb. Fine for your hobby, bad for business.
Allow me to repeat what Mike said earlier, the reason game makers make nitche games is because a lot of games that tried to appeal to a broad audience have failed. Trying to be appeal to the masses will never satisfy anyone.
Indeed. They've also stated that they wanted to make a game that *they* would want to play; something with the wide open FFA feel of old school UO. No one else was making it, so they decided to.
Also, the argument made that "they're in business to make money and would certainly like to make more, so why wouldn't they make the game appeal to more players?", is like asking "surely someone opening a restaurant wants to make money, so why wouldn't they open a large franchise location, instead of opening their own "mom and pop" joint that wouldn't attract as many customers?". It's a ridiculous and dishonest question that doesn't even warrant an answer, because the answer is obvious. Or, should be anyway.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
So, frankly, all 97,000 people leaving DF confirms (if it's even a truly valid number; I've yet to see any solid obejctive source shown for it) is that such a number of people have tried DF and decided it wasn't for them, whatever their reason. Nothing more.
<...>
This has been mentioned at this years Athen's digital week event during the greek developers conference speech by Tasos.
Here is a synopsis about what has been talked about (Page 3 is the bit about Darkfall).
Here the traslated important passage regariding this (through google translation)
"Finally, after questions from the audience revealed that Darkfall will be extended to the Asian market (there is currently a European and an American server), while the issue of sales, reported sales of 100,000 worldwide and the depreciation of money [??.. i think it means return of investment] so far is estimated over 50% of the principal." ("50% of the principal" sure means 50% of the invested capital)
-----MY-TERMS-OF-USE-------------------------------------------------- $OE - eternal enemy of online gaming -We finally WON !!!! 2011 $OE accepted that they have been fired 2005 by the playerbase and closed down ridiculous NGE !!
"There was suppression of speech and all kinds of things between disturbing and fascistic." Raph Koster (parted $OE)
Darkfall is the only MMo in existence where people on day one think they should have a chance against someone thats been playing for a year, because its half skill based. The truth is a day one character in darkfall has a infinitely better chance against a year old character than they would in WoW. They can even wear the same armor in DFO. But no generally someone who has played for 3 weeks can't beat someone who has played for a year. Would you really expect otherwise? People call it a grind and whine and quit. I for one have enjoyed my 7 months on Darkfall.
No, its not because DF is skill based, but because it is FFA open world PvP and is not tier PvP where people of approximate level (or skill level) engage in more or less fair PvP. In DF, a vet with years of game time can and does engage noobs 1 day old. Most people that play games like a challenge, but not impossible odds. Therefore they assume that the noob has a chance against a vet.
Since when does "open world PvP" = "Fair PvP against Vets from Day 1"?
Since like the moment democracy was developed - everyone has a fair chance at whatever. I don't think you would play a game where you get ganked and lose your time and items without having a chance of at least surviving the fight.
Are you trying to dictate what AV's design for DF is?
Yes, absolutely. DF is not designed for AV, they are designed for people like you, I and the rest of the population. Thats why they sell it to us.
Or are you merely projecting your own idea of what it *should* be in your mind, so you can then say "AV has it all wrong"?
Yes and no. I project my wishes that just happen to be wishes of a lot of people that tried DF, liked it a lot, but cannot play it due to several critical mechanics that were designed badly (according to our definition).
The fault is in you seeming to want to play DF like it's Unreal Tournament or Planetside. It's not a MMOFPS. It's a MMORPG. MMORPGs, as with regular RPGs, involve character growth and progression. The longer you progress, the stronger you become, the harder you are to defeat by those weaker than you.
Why on earth do you switch this to a MMOFPS? Can't you apply a MMOFPS mechanic into a MMORPG? Sure you can. Does that MMORPG has to become MMOFPS? Nop. You can apply Planetside mechanic (I don't see how my suggestion has anything to do with Unreal Tournament) to DF without DF importing modern settings, lasers, tanks or become FPS.
If you wan't to keep the current noob-vet difference, then what DF needs to do is to tier PvP levels. Make it so a vet cannot kill a noob without noob's permission or at least punish him severely for griefing (not applicable in sieging or siege defences).
Soo... you want DF to move to consensual PvP and arbitrary protection of the weak in a game geared specifically for FFA combat.
Personally I prefer and find it more inspiring to see players taking things into their own hands and becoming "defenders of the weak". I saw it a lot in Lineage 2 from around Chronicle 3 and, from what I've seen, it's starting to happen in Darkfall as well with people going to newbie areas to deal with griefers. That's awesome to me. It's *truly* player driven and AV needn't intervene with it.
Not happening and not gonna happen on a global scale. Its much easier to grief then to protect.
If you want to keep the current FFA PvP model though, then make it so noobs have a chance to fight back. Vets would still have an advtange with the utility they have, better weapons, better armor, more spells and skills, more mounts. but they wouldn't go afk in the mid of 4-5 noobs attacking them and surviving it.
Have you tested that theory out yourself? Have you tried to take down a vet who just stood there with a group of 4 or 5 and seen that it couldn't be done? Or are you just assuming that would be the case and arguing it as fact?
OK ok, I over-dramaticed one scenario and you cling to it as if suddenly the whole point becomes moot. No, the guy was not AFK. Yes, 4 noobs tried taking him down and we never could take even 10% of his health. His healing, accompanied by his 4-5 shotting us noobs kept his health above 80-90%. Finally, we gave up and just stood at the safety of the noob city. He still tried to snipe us from afar. He really wanted to get rid of the red status.
Even better reason to try darkfall would be if AV created a PvE server where PvP is forbidden everywhere except in designated PvP spots (arenas), by being an outlaw (murdering own people), or by participating in a siege (attacking or defending it). This way, a casual PvE crowd that is not so much interested in PvP can avoid PvP altogether. This would bring in a lot of PvE junkies like myself and would give the necessary funds to improve both PvE and PvP aspects of DF. All sides are happy, me thinks. No?
Wow... Or should I say... WoW.
no WoW, nor Wow. Just fair chance for everyone. Well, except for the griefers. I guess they would lose the most if what I'm suggesting gets implemented into DF. I guess I should stop wondering why you don't like my idea. Eh?
I don't see why people want to be able to compete against vets so quickly. I want to level my guy up, then compete against other people who have leveled their guy up, and may the best leveled up guy win based 80% on our skill strategy and tactics, and 20% on pre-fight choices, such as "which gear to wear?" and "which abilities and potions should I bring?".
Its not that much competing with the vets, as not being thrown around like some rag doll whenever a vet farts at u. I like PvP, but I like fair PvP. I don't like killing noobs that stand no chance against me, nor do I like being the noob, getting attacked and unable to defend myself because of the mechanics of the game. Its just a bad mechanic to throw into the ring everybody - pro-boxers, amature-boxers, housewives and little kids. You gotta separate them, kids fight kids, housewives fight housewives, etc etc. Its no fun when you can't play for hours just because some dude is red and he wants to get rid of his status as fast as he can - that means farming us, noobs. What joy that is for us! WEEEEEE. Can I get ganked one more time, kind sir? Pleeeeease?
Comments
Strawman.
That's not what I said and you know it. Nice try though.
Of course they'd like as many subs as they can get... Any business would. However they also must have known that the kind of game they're making would not appeal to a broader audience, but they designed it that way anyway.
They have also said that they were trying to make a MMO that recaptured the more open and raw feeling of old UO, a setting that - again - they surely realize isn't "en vogue" these days. Yet they made the game that way anyway.
PvP is a niche. FFA PvP is a niche of that. Open PvP with full loot is a niche of that. That's a pretty damn limited population. I'm fairly certain AV knew this, but they made the game that way anyway.
They're sticking to what they want DF to be. And if DF fails because of that - by their own definition and on their own numbers, not yours or anyone else's - then that's their problem to deal with, is it not? Might be disappointing to some around here, but a group of "disenfranchised" forum goers crying "fail!" from their mountaintops likely doesn't quite carry "mandate" status with AV.
The argument I was responding to suggested they should make changes to make it more mainstream and appeal to more people. That same person also argued for consensual PvP and PvE servers to be implemented. In other words, just give up on what they set out to make and start down the road of "more accessibility" to try and get more players. One might call it "WoWifying" it.
Oh, and to point out the obvious... New character models, new mobs, a large-scale revamp of the game coming in the future. GMs who actually get involved in-game, such as for the current Halloween event, or take interest in what their players are doing... Not signs of a MMO that's "failing". Want an example of failing MMOs? -points to APB, Tabula Rasa and others that have shut down inside their first year-.
Also, Badaboom pointed out, they're expanding their staff, they've moved to a new office..
What part about all that, exactly, says "failure in design" to you? I mean, besides the fact that *you* don't like it.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
... do you think they don't know this?
Seriously, Gd... You're here saying all this as though you're privy to some kind of super-secret insider info that no one at AV is aware of... and if only they'd listen to you they'd be doing *so* much better!
Well, a quick look at recent history (as in the past few years) has proven that "trying for a bigger market" doesn't guarantee success. In a number of cases, it's resulted in very underwhelming results and even a number of failures; and I mean *true* failures where the game was taken offline.
Even SE, with all their money and experience in game development, including a MMO, got it wrong when they tried to design FFXIV to "appeal to more people". In a similar way, SE tried to take what is decidedly a very "niche" style of gameplay, and tried to shoe-horn more "casual friendly" elements into it. It didn't work and now the game is being slammed for it.
NCSoft has been steadily trying to make Lineage 2 "more accessible to more people" over the past couple years at least... yet its population has remained in a steady decline. They've gone from about 8 or 9 servers in their Western market down to 2 as of a recent merge. Lineage 2 was at its healthiest when it was at its harshest, and most focused on a niche market. As NC has steadily changed the game to "appeal to a broader audience", people have continued to say "this just isn't an exciting game anymore". So, indeed it can be argued that NCSoft's efforts to make L2 appeal to *more* people has failed to do so and, in fact, has resulted in a continually declining playerbase. Why? At least in part because it was becoming too casual-friendly for those who enjoyed its more harsh environment, while it still wasn't "casual enough" for those looking for a more casual friendly experience. By trying to cater to more people, they ended up appealing to fewer, losing more and more long-time players in the process.
SOE gambled their existing playerbase in SWG in hopes that changing the game to be more "casual friendly" would bring in larger numbers. They lost that bet and the resulting backlash is legendary.
Time and again, in example after example, changing a game with the ideal of "appealing to more people" has simply not panned out favorably. It's too much change for those who liked the game for what it was, and it's "never enough" for those the changes are intended to attract. It's a lose/lose situation.
Trying to make a FFA PvP MMO with full loot that also appeals to a wider audience... well... oil and water. Just sayin'.
Has it occurred to you that AV very *deliberately* have targeted a very niche playerbase who would enjoy the kind of game they've made? I very well remember reading an interview where it was stated that AV set out to make a MMO that *they* would want to play'; someting that would recapture the experience they got playing old school UO. Turning around and making a game "more widely accessible" would require them to eliminate or at least neuter the aspects of the game that makes it the kind of experience it is. In othe words... they would have to make DF into something other than what it was intended to be. At the very least, full loot would have to go.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Good job very smart response.
i dont know why people compare Eve and Darkfall - their so unrelated its just stupid, even just on the PVP side of things, their almost completely dissimilar, a DF vet has 0 chance of losing against a new player, in Eve, the new player isnt automatically squished regardless of equipment or actions, DF is a level based pvp orientated game, Eve players don't have levels, and its a hell of a lot more than just PVP... and while both games are 'niche' games, the 'niche' that DF occupies is a particularly specialised one, even more so than Eve.. and definitely in a different catagory.
so are you saying that us Darkfall players are "Special"? Why thank you!
Are you claiming that a brand-new player in Eve can go up against someone with more skills into any given build-out, superior equipment and more knowledge of the game mechanics and strategies, and not be destroyed? A more experienced and better prepared player in Eve doesn't have 0 chance of losing against a new player with next to no skills trained and newbie equipment?
I can create a new character in Eve, take my newbie ship and with absolutely minimal, or no training, go out and pick a fight with someone with months of development and not be obliterated? I'd actually have a chance to win or at least put up a serious fight?
Are you saying that in Eve it wouldn't require hours, then days then a week or longer - requiring at least a month or so altogether - to train the requisite skills to pilot a given ship and equip it with the necessary equipment suitable for the task? I'm not even accounting for the money involved to obtain said equipment and skills, nor am I even getting into the hands-on training of using said equipment and learning effective tactics against more developed and experienced players in order to not be destroyed by one.
Just like in DF, you definitely need a degree of time to develop the skills, obtain the equipment and learn the skills and tactics necessary to be effective against a veteran player. To argue otherwise is just plain untruthful.
One may revolve around twitch combat and the other more "target and fire" combat... but time is still required in both to obtain the necessary skills and equipment to be effective. It may not be "months" of time necessary... but it's not mere "hours" either.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Yes, it is pretty much what you said and only repeat in your reply. I don't have much more to add...
Your argument is basically that whatever AV is doing, is fine as long as they are happy with the result, which is silly.
I have already pointed out that Darkfall is a business and as such, from business perspective, being focused on tiny minority of the player base isn't a smart move. AV desires are irrelevant, claimed market share and revenue is what matters.
EVE Online does have full loot FFA PVP and +300k subs. Why? Because they got the message that making the game unrestricted FFA that caters to only 0.0 citizens would not get them anywhere.
MMO market is extremely competitive and if you are not growing and stale, you will be left behind and die.
Trying to be a 'niche' game just for sake of being 'niche' is dumb. Fine for your hobby, bad for business.
Has DFO updated its HUD/UI yet?
It is being completely redone and will be in next expansion which hopefully will be out soon.
Life IS Feudal
Allow me to repeat what Mike said earlier, the reason game makers make nitche games is because a lot of games that tried to appeal to a broad audience have failed. Trying to be appeal to the masses will never satisfy anyone.
If majority of PvP corporations require 8-9 months of PvP skills training, it doesn't mean that you can't PvP at all without those skills.
There are opportunities and roles in PvP for less developed chars in both games. For example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qCMThjCYozA - Casual and new players (Sanctuary guild) simply destroyed best PvP clan on the server in battle that was considered important by both sides.
Nevertheless, when majority of EvE PvP corporations list 8-9 months of training as entry requirement for new members - it does mean that you're becoming more powerful in PvP during those 8-9 months.
What number of players do you consider a niche audience. AV have sold 100000 copys of this game, and everyone of those knew Darkfall was a full-loot FFA pvp-mmo. Infact that was theire selling point. This wasn`t suppose to be a regular grind mmo with a focus on purple gear, this mmo was a sandbox with a focus on war, pvp, politics.
-What if the 97000 we`ve lost didn`t had to spend their time ingame on killing stupid NPC`s to get money so they could macro magic?
-What if they didn`t had to keep their PC on every night in order to AFK swim so they could get a few lousy points in vitality and quickness?
-What if they didn`t had to do boring stuff for a year in order to get a competitive fight.
-What if they didn`t had to use a 3. party program to overcome the crappy UI.
Darkfall is a niche game, that`s right. But it`s not a niche game because it`s a FFA full-loot mmo, it`s a niche game because of the stupid long time new players have to grind in order to play this game as intended.
Just curious. When was the last time you ACTUALLY logged in and played? I'm pretty sure you haven't in the last year (if you have ever).
The grind in DFO is no different than even WoW for end game competitive gear. I know MANY who have become competitive in 1-2 months. That si about the same as any other game on the market 9outside EvE which is longer).
I`m online 5 hours every day, and I`m online now. My char is competitive with almost every important spell 75+ or higher(stormblast, WOF, eyerot, begone, confusion etc.). I only got my rays to 50+ and due to my lack of AFK swimming my quickness is just 60. My health is 412 naked.
But it`s true, I haven`t really played Darkfall for almost six months. If you don`t take part in the politics and pvp you don`t play Darkfall, you only excist in Agon. All i do while I wait for AV to get new pvpers to the game is AFK harvest, melee some medium NPCs and train my rays on low level mobs. I`m not asking for an easier grind for myself, I want it for the new players.
My guild does not recruit. We have picked up 10 new players in the last month. Our allaince has picked up activity by 50% from people starting to game more wit the cooler weather. This includes mostly returning players and new players.
Training your rays is easy. playing a couple hours a day I trained every ray in the game to 50+ (3 to 75+) in ~1 week. of course i PvE harder mobs because:
A) skillup are faster (no down time)
Skill-ups are on par with any game on the market. However, if you do not focus or play with good guild you probably aren;t focusing enough to make progress. Same will happen in any other game as this is the equivalent of playing 5 toons instead of focusing on one. Stats are nice but they are not game changers unless you are Pvping at the very top levels which occurs AFTER you have your skills in place.
Well that`s the point, we all PVP at the very top level the moment you enter Darkfall.
A new player can`t tell Ginger magician or any other high level to stop killing them because they are not playing at the very top level. And there is absolutly no reason to keep a high level grind in a game where gear and player skill plays an equally big part of your damage output as level.
In my opinion the level grind should be small because you have to grind your gear and train your player skill anyway. We are losing to many new players (who would love this game) simply because they can`t get past the fist six months. Just listen to the new players, they love the game the first month. The PVE is different and fun at the start, but soon they want to try the really good part of Darkfall. And we all know the gem of this game is pvp.
I like darkfall and i want it to flourish. If I didn`t care about the game I wouldn`t be here bitching all the time. I honestly think only a few small changes could make this game amongst the top 10 in number players. And all of us that had the pleasure of playing Darkfall before US1 server know how fun a Darkfall full of competitive players can be.
Offline skilling, announced by Tasos few days ago, will help new players to skip the grind. It was necessary, if only to remove AFK-swimmers and AFK-macroers from the world, and give everyone more time to enjoy the game instead of grinding.
But it won't solve problem that some old macroers are bored
You can pretty much reduce your own fun in DF to zero, reducing possible risk of siege through alliances, and reducing possible risk of getting rolled in PvP by travelling in large group of insanely developed characters. Even with grind taken out from equation - still "playing to win" is different from "having fun".
If you are fightign Ginger Magician, you are not fighting at the top levels. To beat Ginger Magician you need mastery. A guy who can only gank naked crafetrs isn't much of a challenge to anyone who PvP's often.
You clearly don't understand the game mechanics and don;t know what contributes between stats, gear and skills. If your damage difference is greater than 3 pts then your issue is with gear and mastery not stats. When you are talking small differences in damage and pure enddurance the issue is either stats or you use of transfer spells.
What matters for business is how initial investment pays off.
After hiring few guys, whole DF development team is 12 people. Some graphics and animations are outsourced, and done by external contractors. And of course with each patch they need few days of QA team. It's not the team to compete head-to-head with Blizzard or EA-Mythic-Bioware.
They've sold 100 000 copies through their website, and it was enough to pay for 50% of development budget - just because their game was different.
It's not bad business, when compared to companies trying to copy WoW for n-th time, and competing with 10 other PvE themepark titles released around the same period.
Game sells as long as there are no other games which offer similar features, but better overall experience. DF killed Shadowbane - Ubisoft just gave up because they were unable to compete with DF.
Few years from now someone will create fantasy open-world, sandboxy PvP game, which will be better than DF in every imaginable way. But by staying true to their design, AV has few years without competition from Blizzard, SOE and EA-Mythic-Bioware.
" Give me Darkfall " or give me " Leanidos "
" Hoo Yaa "
MAGA
I realize it's difficult to accept that AV "doesn't see things your way", and doesn't look to arm-chair business experts in some forum for their business advice. It might be difficult to accept that a company who spent 9 years developing a game, full knowing they were catering to a very limited player base just by virtue of the kind of game they were making, has a better idea of what they're doing than some forum warriors who seem convinced "they know better". Nonetheless, it's true.
No matter how strongly you argue it or, again, insist otherwise, if they'd "done things more your way", there is no guarantee the game would be doing all that much better. Why? Because for everyone like yourself who would like such changes, there are those playing it who like it as is and would likely find themselves leaving. Also, to argue that 97,000 people all, or even mostly left for the same reason, "because of the grind", is pure conjecture. I'm fairly certain an exit interview wasn't conducted for every player who's left DF to even attempt to collect such data. I do know that among reasons I've seen given for people leaving, some have left due to the controls, some due to the look of the game, some due to finding they're not fans of FFA PvP, some for a perceived lack of PvE content... and so forth. It's been a mixed bag. The crowd arguing "too much grind" has simply been the loudest.
So, frankly, all 97,000 people leaving DF confirms (if it's even a truly valid number; I've yet to see any solid obejctive source shown for it) is that such a number of people have tried DF and decided it wasn't for them, whatever their reason. Nothing more.
Because AV isn't specifically catering to *you* or to others who have their own ideas of "what DF should be" doesn't mean they're "doing it all wrong". They're simply not "doing it your way".
Again, the fact alone that the game is still expanding, still being developed and improved, and they're still expanding their staff and office space says well enough... the game is doing well enough for AV to invest in such things, whether you or others want to accept it or not. To continue arguing "the game is failing", as some are, in light of such facts is pretty dishonest as well. There's been a number of examples in the genre just in the past few years to show that a company who's MMO is "struggling" or "dying" doesn't expand their team, move to a larger office, or set out on large, expensive tasks such as revamping or expanding the game.
The game doesn't appeal to you and you wish it were different. I've felt that many times playing MMOs. I spent $75 on the CE pre-order for FFXIV, and cancelled my account less than week into retail. I was in retail and knew what the game had, but believed that SE would surely have far more implemented at launch, as they'd stated testers were only seeing about 20% of the content. The game launched with exactly what it had in beta. 20% turned out to be 100% of more of the same. Disappointment happens. If they make sufficient changes to warrant me checking it out again, I will. If not, oh well. Life goes on.
Whether it's doing well enough for AV is up to them to decide... They know their business model. They know their financial circumstances. They know what they need to consider DF "successful enough to maintain and develop". They're the ones who put 9 years into developing the game. Seems to me they know it better than anyone here, on more levels than anyone here. Just sayin'.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
This has been mentioned at this years Athen's digital week event during the greek developers conference speech by Tasos.
Here is a synopsis about what has been talked about (Page 3 is the bit about Darkfall).
Here the traslated important passage regariding this (through google translation)
"Finally, after questions from the audience revealed that Darkfall will be extended to the Asian market (there is currently a European and an American server), while the issue of sales, reported sales of 100,000 worldwide and the depreciation of money [??.. i think it means return of investment] so far is estimated over 50% of the principal." ("50% of the principal" sure means 50% of the invested capital)
-----MY-TERMS-OF-USE--------------------------------------------------
$OE - eternal enemy of online gaming
-We finally WON !!!! 2011 $OE accepted that they have been fired 2005 by the playerbase and closed down ridiculous NGE !!
"There was suppression of speech and all kinds of things between disturbing and fascistic." Raph Koster (parted $OE)
I am the type of player where I like to do everything and anything from time to time.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor - pre-WW2 genocide.
Its not that much competing with the vets, as not being thrown around like some rag doll whenever a vet farts at u. I like PvP, but I like fair PvP. I don't like killing noobs that stand no chance against me, nor do I like being the noob, getting attacked and unable to defend myself because of the mechanics of the game. Its just a bad mechanic to throw into the ring everybody - pro-boxers, amature-boxers, housewives and little kids. You gotta separate them, kids fight kids, housewives fight housewives, etc etc. Its no fun when you can't play for hours just because some dude is red and he wants to get rid of his status as fast as he can - that means farming us, noobs. What joy that is for us! WEEEEEE. Can I get ganked one more time, kind sir? Pleeeeease?
I am the type of player where I like to do everything and anything from time to time.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor - pre-WW2 genocide.