At least you come up with decent elements of an answer.
But it doesn't negate the things I mentioned above: the title of this thread was clear.
Is EA worried ?: with ALL the history of the last 5 years behind you and the fail to keep those subscriptions going wouldn't you ?
The Lores didn't bring them in, the old MMO techniques didn't bring them in and EA's earlier trials were the worst of the bunch.
And so what does bring SW:TOR to the table exactly that seperates it from the rest of those 30 others?
Why would it change now? Because of the voices? Let me ask you just one question: will it be possible to fly over those planets and mountains, so is the game real open 3D ? It didn't even have a space element before forums demanded it.
Those are the real - programming - needs behind a next generation MMO. Not the recorded NPC voices.
That last element is simply a tagged on - non critical feature - in old MMO designs.
Of course they should be worried considering the state of the MMO genre and the reception factor attributed to every release since WOW. There's plenty to be worried about, their worry is paramount to the amount of money they've spent thus far. Which I'm not going to go into specifics outside of what they've said themselves. "They've spent far more than than any MMO before" or something to that effect, which if I'm not mistaken is where the original 150mill idea came from, it was a speculation based on known budgets IE: (WOW) etc...
They wouldn't spend that much if they weren't worried, they were worried before any negativity began, I'm sure they're even more worried now.
As for your question I doubt it, though we may see speeders and such to travel said land with. What I think is most important is what they seem to be focusing on outside of VO, polish and lots and lots of content. That's what most releases have been missing for years now, content gaps, countless flaws and/or bugs, unfinished late game etc... These issues are what have come to be expected of MMO's, and are a huge contributive factor in why MMO's have failed time and time again.
These are things you don't see in videos or limited play testing, hands ons and what have yous. It's what comes to be seen a month after launch when everyone jumps ship. If they focus on these aspects and offer a solid base game, that lasts for more than a month, they will do something no one has done since Blizzard. If they focus on these things they should have little to worry about come launch, as they'll keep those who want more because they'll have it.
Everything else is moot IMO, we can harp all day about a game needs this or that feature, or it needs this or that option. At the end of the day the only thing that matters is how much effort is put into offering a fun experience that isn't hampered down with issues and broken promises.
I fully agree with your answer. Of course the fear is there, but in my opinion they invested far too much in the trivial part of OLD MMO play (voices and 10 ears quests).
To be succesful where others failed, they really need to be the next big thing and offer something that WOW doesn't offer in core design and programming techniques and even game design (GW2 comes to mind from this last design perspective).
So my "real 3D" question is not a question of a feature: to me it will be evident if the game has the "full proof" of professional game design of a "world" we were spoiled with and "live in".
Contrary to what C says: the last 5 years were not because of lack of "polished" gameplay.
That was just an element.
To bring a new MMO with growing subscriptions, you'll have to add other things, more programming and more game design. The fact space was tagged on (after forum whining) shows these forgotten things are questionable.
These days: IF you bring a space opera ... you need the full swing of open world designs on all planets and make it a full open space design.
It will be a huge difference if you just jump from location to location and are surrounded by walls everywhere.
That kind of game play may be 1000 times polished and repolished: it will not make the difference.
Polish is not only 'programming without bugs", it is the way the game is implemented with NEW programming and NEW mechanics.
And like I said: I think only Blizzard has the means and GW2 added interesting design projects. Something SW:TOR is desperatly searching for right now.
If EA has any sense: they will postpone the launch. EA louse touched something everyone - who was not a fanatic fan of a non published game - could already see.
These days: IF you bring a space opera ... you need the full swing of open world designs on all planets and make it a full open space design.
I think that would take a little long. Full content in space and on many planets? look how long it takes for just "one" space game or just "one" regular land based mmo.
When I see that I see mmo players who envision their perfect game (nothing wrong with that) and make such statements because surely it's just as easy as that.
As far as that EA Louse, the person touches upon what a group of people fear. It's these people who are feeding that fear. Whether that person is legit or just one of those people trying to stir up the pot.
I'm just amazed that so many people jumped on that person's words as gold. "but he/she says and confirms what people know or suspect"... well then it's just that easy for someone to create a blog and use what people know or suspect and just feed it back to them in a form that claims legitimacy. I think a healthy dose of "let's see" is in order.
The game has shown what it has shown. And until I start hearing "open beta is set for..." or "game will launch in x months" I think people need to stop acting like kids and expecting that things need to be shown "now". I know no other product where the creator/developer/manufacturer is asked to show their product as it is designed. And certianly no media project. No movie or CD or Book is put under the same scrutiny and demands.
Nothing needs to be shown "now" until the time comes for a true reveal. Then consumers can choose with their wallets.
EA has pressure as any large company that is developing an expensive and risky venture will have.
But if they release a reasonably polished product that is fun to play then I think people will line up to play it.
Regardless of whether gamers think it's a good mmorpg or not.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Just picking out 5 words in a well written and very thoughful piece of why and where is a shame to your intellectual honesty.
It shows you ARE in fact a joker.
Saying your post was thoughtful is a bit of a stretch considering you're passing around half thruths as facts.
"Bioware has absolutely no experience in PvP on line games"- I'll even leave NWN out of this.
BIoware isn't exacty known for being an online oriented developer. That's partly true, however this is Bioware Austin we're talking about. Which is made up of devs from all over the MMO industry. From SWG devs to Shadowbane devs, one of the leads is actually of a shadowbane background, not to mention the number of Mythic devs working on PVP for TOR.
There's plenty of PVP experience on this dev team. I guess you're right though, there's far more to pick apart in your post other than your one and only interest being in Blizzard, or ex Blizz devs.
Talk about damning with faint praise... ^^ Neither Shadowbane nor Mythics Warhammer Dev's inspire much confidence in terms of PvP and game player retention. While I agree that TOR is likely to do well, its more owning to Biowares huge experience in crafting detailed worlds, than any individual Dev's. Not to mention that PvP in the west, is in the minority in terms of MMO games.
Its usually more a bone thrown to that demographic, than any real focus. Look at what has happened to many of the games that are PvP centric in the western markets. Even in CCP's EVE(a very PvP centric game) it has well more than half of its player base that stays in high sec and seldom if ever leaves. PvP isn't a make or break aspect for a game in the west.
These days: IF you bring a space opera ... you need the full swing of open world designs on all planets and make it a full open space design.
I think that would take a little long. Full content in space and on many planets? look how long it takes for just "one" space game or just "one" regular land based mmo.
When I see that I see mmo players who envision their perfect game (nothing wrong with that) and make such statements because surely it's just as easy as that.
As far as that EA Louse, the person touches upon what a group of people fear. It's these people who are feeding that fear. Whether that person is legit or just one of those people trying to stir up the pot.
I'm just amazed that so many people jumped on that person's words as gold. "but he/she says and confirms what people know or suspect"... well then it's just that easy for someone to create a blog and use what people know or suspect and just feed it back to them in a form that claims legitimacy. I think a healthy dose of "let's see" is in order.
The game has shown what it has shown. And until I start hearing "open beta is set for..." or "game will launch in x months" I think people need to stop acting like kids and expecting that things need to be shown "now". I know no other product where the creator/developer/manufacturer is asked to show their product as it is designed. And certianly no media project. No movie or CD or Book is put under the same scrutiny and demands.
Nothing needs to be shown "now" until the time comes for a true reveal. Then consumers can choose with their wallets.
EA has pressure as any large company that is developing an expensive and risky venture will have.
But if they release a reasonably polished product that is fun to play then I think people will line up to play it.
Regardless of whether gamers think it's a good mmorpg or not.
I'm sorry Sovrath but this opinion is reasonable and you know there isn't much room for that on MMORPG and certainly not where this game is concerned.
but yeah, to call this game Fantastic is like calling Twilight the Godfather of vampire movies....
These days: IF you bring a space opera ... you need the full swing of open world designs on all planets and make it a full open space design.
I think that would take a little long. Full content in space and on many planets? look how long it takes for just "one" space game or just "one" regular land based mmo.
That's why they should have left the Space part out till after launch. And fully focussed on the ground based (or rather planet based) part of the game.
SWG didn't had space at launch and it wasn't bothering anyone either. We all enjoyed the heck out of the ground game. Despite it's flaws and issues. It was one of the best MMO experiences I've ever had.
When Jump to Lightspeed launched. It really added something substantial. And again. I enjoyed the heck out of it. Again despite all the issues it caused with the ground based performance.
It would have been far better to leave Space to a future expansion and do it right. Then just tag it on as they do now. Just for the sake of having it.
These days: IF you bring a space opera ... you need the full swing of open world designs on all planets and make it a full open space design.
I think that would take a little long. Full content in space and on many planets? look how long it takes for just "one" space game or just "one" regular land based mmo.
That's why they should have left the Space part out till after launch. And fully focussed on the ground based (or rather planet based) part of the game.
SWG didn't had space at launch and it wasn't bothering anyone either. We all enjoyed the heck out of the ground game. Despite it's flaws and issues. It was one of the best MMO experiences I've ever had.
When Jump to Lightspeed launched. It really added something substantial. And again. I enjoyed the heck out of it. Again despite all the issues it caused with the ground based performance.
It would have been far better to leave Space to a future expansion and do it right. Then just tag it on as they do now. Just for the sake of having it.
Just my 2 cents.
Actually, I completely agree.
but I also see their point of view with creating "movie moments". And that really is where Bioware is moving, toward "moments' where the player is a part of those moments. The design decision, though unpopular, really does fit in with how they do things.
In the end, this will be a bioware game, good or bad, to one's tastes or not.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
These days: IF you bring a space opera ... you need the full swing of open world designs on all planets and make it a full open space design.
I think that would take a little long. Full content in space and on many planets? look how long it takes for just "one" space game or just "one" regular land based mmo.
That's why they should have left the Space part out till after launch. And fully focussed on the ground based (or rather planet based) part of the game.
SWG didn't had space at launch and it wasn't bothering anyone either. We all enjoyed the heck out of the ground game. Despite it's flaws and issues. It was one of the best MMO experiences I've ever had.
When Jump to Lightspeed launched. It really added something substantial. And again. I enjoyed the heck out of it. Again despite all the issues it caused with the ground based performance.
It would have been far better to leave Space to a future expansion and do it right. Then just tag it on as they do now. Just for the sake of having it.
Just my 2 cents.
Actually, I completely agree.
but I also see their point of view with creating "movie moments". And that really is where Bioware is moving, toward "moments' where the player is a part of those moments. The design decision, though unpopular, really does fit in with how they do things.
In the end, this will be a bioware game, good or bad, to one's tastes or not.
Plus. Even if they had left it for later, I doubt they ever would have done X-Wing series type of simulator or had vast open space to explore in. However, I would have hoped a system that is a mixture of Wing Commander / X-Wing. That would have worked very well in this setting.
"The person who experiences greatness must have a feeling for the myth he is in."
Contrary to what C says: the last 5 years were not because of lack of "polished" gameplay.
That was just an element.
To bring a new MMO with growing subscriptions, you'll have to add other things, more programming and more game design. The fact space was tagged on (after forum whining) shows these forgotten things are questionable.
These days: IF you bring a space opera ... you need the full swing of open world designs on all planets and make it a full open space design.
It will be a huge difference if you just jump from location to location and are surrounded by walls everywhere.
That kind of game play may be 1000 times polished and repolished: it will not make the difference.
Polish is not only 'programming without bugs", it is the way the game is implemented with NEW programming and NEW mechanics.
Not really. It's all just speculating of course including what you're doing here. But the main difference that WoW had with preceding MMORPG's wasn't innovation or breakthrough game features, far from: it was polish, accessibility of its gameplay and smooth, fun gameplay. That, combined with lots of content made the game enjoyable enough for gamers to keep hanging around.
A lot of MMORPG's after WoW had cool new and intriguing innovations: what was missing was that they either lacked in polish or finished features or enough content to avoid the grind.
The large open worlds didn't make the difference: there have been MMORPG's that were far vaster and more wide open than WoW. Also, a combination of full open space design and open worlds isn't the ultimate requirement, as SWG and STO proved.
What most MMO gamers want is just to have a great time, with enough stuff to do and a smooth, polished fun gameplay experience. In the West that means little grind, and as little annoyances like bugs as possible.
But hey, believe whatever you like to believe, it's your own opinion after all.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
I am actually encouraged by the negativity, means that peeps have a deep passion for the SW universe. The negative comments have now reached the level for me that I am buying the collector's edition sight unseen lol.
I think both Bioware and EA are thrilled there's this much talk about SW:ToR. The "negativity" is laughable since nobody here has even played the game. It may suck, it may blow me away.
To get this much publicity without revealing much about the gameplay is astounding.
I loved Bioware to death until I first read of their buy out by EA. Personally, I don't think EA cares one way or another as long as you are giving them your money. Stars Wars and Bioware, as someone said, is going to sell boxes no matter what is said about the game. As for EA....
EA is the current king of cash shops. I can only imagine what they're going to end up doing with this next Star Wars game.
Look at games like Sims III. They took a lot of the things you could use in Sims II out of Sims III and put them in a cash shop. It was quite a big deal when Sims III came out. A few users on their Sims forums concluded to get everything back you could use in Sims II you'd have to spend around $300.
Sadly, I'm sure there are hundreds, maybe thousands, of people that actually did that.
SWTOR may turn out to be a great game, but I'm sad to know that a company like EA will be behind Bioware calling shots like that.
As much as I like Star Wars, I dislike EA more.
I'm waiting to see if they start selling extra content, weapons, classes etc. in mini DLC at 5-15 dollars a pop.
Ah well, more than anything I'll be happy to see I'm wrong sometime down the road after release.
SWTOR may turn out to be a great game, but I'm sad to know that a company like EA will be behind Bioware calling shots like that.
As much as I like Star Wars, I dislike EA more.
I don't really know what to tell you other then the head of BioWare is now the EA Senior VP. BioWares titles since the EA "buyout" have still been received very well and are incredibly popular.
I personally have no ill feelings towards the direction BioWare is taking with the game, and I don't hold EA responsible, because frankly, a large part of BioWare is now on the top rung of EA. If Muzyka lets EA change the direction of the way this game is being made and the way BioWare puts out games while he's in a position to stop it, then I think its BioWares own fault.
The only thing I'll venture is with a 150 Mil + budget (I think that number at least was confirmed by someone official)...the game can't just afford to do well. It has to do EXTREMELY well to provide a decent return on investment. I don't think negative commentary on this site (or any other) is going to make EA/BIOWARE particulary nervous. I DO think the sheer size of thier investment will pretty much do that all on it's own...regardless of any of the pre-launch feedback.
I don't really know what to tell you other then the head of BioWare is now the EA Senior VP. BioWares titles since the EA "buyout" have still been received very well and are incredibly popular.
I personally have no ill feelings towards the direction BioWare is taking with the game, and I don't hold EA responsible, because frankly, a large part of BioWare is now on the top rung of EA. If Muzyka lets EA change the direction of the way this game is being made and the way BioWare puts out games while he's in a position to stop it, then I think its BioWares own fault.
You maybe right.
I'm not going to pretend I have any sort of insider knowledge of the hiearchy of their dealings or their politics since there's no way to have accurate knowledge of that aspect.
What I do have knowledge of is EA games that I've played in the past. Some of them successes and some less so. I look at games like Warhammer Online, Dragon Age, Sims, etc.
EA doesn't have a strong MMO track record yet and I am, personally, not a fan of individual DLC. That seems to be the direction EA is taking, because they can charge more for less rather than releasing a comprehensive expansion. We'll see what Bioware does.
I suppose it isn't relative yet either way seeing as it's all speculation.
These days: IF you bring a space opera ... you need the full swing of open world designs on all planets and make it a full open space design.
I think that would take a little long. Full content in space and on many planets? look how long it takes for just "one" space game or just "one" regular land based mmo.
That's why they should have left the Space part out till after launch. And fully focussed on the ground based (or rather planet based) part of the game.
SWG didn't had space at launch and it wasn't bothering anyone either. We all enjoyed the heck out of the ground game. Despite it's flaws and issues. It was one of the best MMO experiences I've ever had.
When Jump to Lightspeed launched. It really added something substantial. And again. I enjoyed the heck out of it. Again despite all the issues it caused with the ground based performance.
It would have been far better to leave Space to a future expansion and do it right. Then just tag it on as they do now. Just for the sake of having it.
Just my 2 cents.
Actually, I completely agree.
but I also see their point of view with creating "movie moments". And that really is where Bioware is moving, toward "moments' where the player is a part of those moments. The design decision, though unpopular, really does fit in with how they do things.
In the end, this will be a bioware game, good or bad, to one's tastes or not.
Plus. Even if they had left it for later, I doubt they ever would have done X-Wing series type of simulator or had vast open space to explore in. However, I would have hoped a system that is a mixture of Wing Commander / X-Wing. That would have worked very well in this setting.
Well, there is always the possibility that they might add on to their space component and flesh it out a bit more.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
These days: IF you bring a space opera ... you need the full swing of open world designs on all planets and make it a full open space design.
I think that would take a little long. Full content in space and on many planets? look how long it takes for just "one" space game or just "one" regular land based mmo.
That's why they should have left the Space part out till after launch. And fully focussed on the ground based (or rather planet based) part of the game.
SWG didn't had space at launch and it wasn't bothering anyone either. We all enjoyed the heck out of the ground game. Despite it's flaws and issues. It was one of the best MMO experiences I've ever had.
When Jump to Lightspeed launched. It really added something substantial. And again. I enjoyed the heck out of it. Again despite all the issues it caused with the ground based performance.
It would have been far better to leave Space to a future expansion and do it right. Then just tag it on as they do now. Just for the sake of having it.
Just my 2 cents.
Actually, I completely agree.
but I also see their point of view with creating "movie moments". And that really is where Bioware is moving, toward "moments' where the player is a part of those moments. The design decision, though unpopular, really does fit in with how they do things.
In the end, this will be a bioware game, good or bad, to one's tastes or not.
Plus. Even if they had left it for later, I doubt they ever would have done X-Wing series type of simulator or had vast open space to explore in. However, I would have hoped a system that is a mixture of Wing Commander / X-Wing. That would have worked very well in this setting.
Well, there is always the possibility that they might add on to their space component and flesh it out a bit more.
First, let me state I'm a Bioware fan and I think this game is going to do well regardless of what some think.
Secondly, I actually don't have much interest in playing SW:ToR lol. Not because I think it's a bad thing, it's just not my thing. The whole SW thing is to much like fantasy for me (I know some don't see it that way and it's fine, I'm not knocking you for liking it or agreeing with me.). I may pick it up anyways eventually because it's Bioware though.
Now with that out of the way, I don't think space combat is going to see a great deal of fleshing out at least in the direction some players are wanting. Some want the type of space combat thats only really viable in a sandbox setting. Thats just not Biowares style. They are kings of story, but sandbox isn't their strong suite. So you may see the "Rail Shooter" style of space combat to be fleshed out, but I don't think you can really count on them abandoning that style of space combat.
Originally posted by Lobotomist So are EA and Bioware in panic mode right now ?
Nope. Forum posters doesn't represent the majority of potential buyers. They never have and never will
They are most likely confident the game will speak for itself once released.
I first heard this theory applied to Star Wars Galaxies during the NGE, and it didn't really hold true as we have all seen. I have yet to see a game where the forums are not predictive of a game's success or failure.
Ofcourse, success is subjective. Some define it as nothing less than the WOW killer. Others define success as staying in business. Somewhere between those two extremes is more likely true.
Originally posted by Lobotomist So are EA and Bioware in panic mode right now ?
Nope. Forum posters doesn't represent the majority of potential buyers. They never have and never will
They are most likely confident the game will speak for itself once released.
I first heard this theory applied to Star Wars Galaxies during the NGE, and it didn't really hold true as we have all seen. I have yet to see a game where the forums are not predictive of a game's success or failure.
Ofcourse, success is subjective. Some define it as nothing less than the WOW killer. Others define success as staying in business. Somewhere between those two extremes is more likely true.
As long as I always have people to group with, I don't care how many people it has. What I don't want is spamming LFG channels for even 30 minutes trying to pull together a 4 or 5 man group.
Yes space can only be done alone, but to say the game is a SP game because the (mostly optional) 8 minute missions of flight? Get real.
That's not the reason. If you watched the interviews before the 1 year delay, every developer was enthusiastic about how the game could be played solo. At that point a solo-MMO was one of the biggest sale points.
Then of course, appeared the negative response in the forums, and the 1 year delay, and the group content.
Yes I think they are panicking right now. They are showing nothing. There is nothing amazing about this suposedly "MMO", while GW2 is looking stronger every day.
I explained that the majority are casual players. It's smart marketing, not complicated at all.
Just picking out 5 words in a well written and very thoughful piece of why and where is a shame to your intellectual honesty.
It shows you ARE in fact a joker.
Saying your post was thoughtful is a bit of a stretch considering you're passing around half thruths as facts.
"Bioware has absolutely no experience in PvP on line games"- I'll even leave NWN out of this.
BIoware isn't exacty known for being an online oriented developer. That's partly true, however this is Bioware Austin we're talking about. Which is made up of devs from all over the MMO industry. From SWG devs to Shadowbane devs, one of the leads is actually of a shadowbane background, not to mention the number of Mythic devs working on PVP for TOR.
There's plenty of PVP experience on this dev team. I guess you're right though, there's far more to pick apart in your post other than your one and only interest being in Blizzard, or ex Blizz devs.
Talk about damning with faint praise... ^^ Neither Shadowbane nor Mythics Warhammer Dev's inspire much confidence in terms of PvP and game player retention. While I agree that TOR is likely to do well, its more owning to Biowares huge experience in crafting detailed worlds, than any individual Dev's. Not to mention that PvP in the west, is in the minority in terms of MMO games.
Its usually more a bone thrown to that demographic, than any real focus. Look at what has happened to many of the games that are PvP centric in the western markets. Even in CCP's EVE(a very PvP centric game) it has well more than half of its player base that stays in high sec and seldom if ever leaves. PvP isn't a make or break aspect for a game in the west.
I'm not exactly sure why you're directing this at me, I never said PVP was a make or break feature, I just mentioned the game had experienced (in PVP) developers on board, simply because another poster said there was no PVP experience on this dev team. Which doesn't =/= TOR must have PVP, or anything close to such a statement nor toward the quality of said PVP.
AS for whether a dev from shadowbane strikes confidence in possible decent PVP, I disagree with you on that. Maybe not for you, that's fine and you're welcome to such an opinion.I still strongly disagree . I'll just say, they're one of the few teams in the history of PVP MMO's to actually create meaningful PVP.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Each character has his henchman: already a huge problem: a 10 (!) man Battleground/scenario's/whatever would make for some 40 avatars fighting. Simple: I don't see that happening.
Because you can't really have competitive PvP with all those NPC's running loose.
So ... perhaps henchman are taken out in PvP. Ok, but you can't take them out in so called promised world PvP can you ?Because they are an integral part of the player tools and avatar...
--
And with each of these findings (be that solo instances, story telling, voice overs, lack of complete open universe,..) you see the limits/problems coming.
@ C: I think if the planets really have invisible walls and can't be flown over, it simply will be the end. If the number one MMO has it, the next big thing simply can't leave them out. Invisible walls and narrow played paths (with or without story) is ' the end" these days (War, AoC, ST, Aion, ...)
The end in this case means : bye bye 1 M sustained Subs (EA standards).
If you bring anything less or restricted you are screwed as a game designer.
That's the problem. And btw: that was the problem for 5 years now. Anyone can live with a crash. No one will want to pay for less options.
Lol. What do you know, I check up on this site for the first time this morning, and this is the first thread I see in the main page list
About open, large worlds: not the main argument, SWG and Vanguard had worldsizes that made WoW look like a midget world, still they did worse in the end. WoW only now has a main world you can fly over about and had its own limitations during all those 5 years, and it didn't matter anyway for their success. The world only has to pass a threshold of openness and wideness, and after that the rest is extra.
Anyway, it's all just bullshit speculations, like every sports fan at a Champions League that knows better why this player should make it in the team and that player not and why this strategy should be used for guaranteed success or why that one not. We'll see. For some reason reading your posts you (desperately?) want to believe that other MMORPG's will fail. Fine, if that's what your conviction is, then please hold on to that no matter what.
I say let's see what 2011 and 2012 will bring, because there's no doubt that it'll become interesting.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
EA hasn't published ONE succesful MMO since original UO.
They rush the development team to release unfinished product, grab all the money they can and then move the mmo to skeleton crew and then start making next moneygrubbing operation.
EA hasn't published ONE succesful MMO since original UO.
They rush the development team to release unfinished product, grab all the money they can and then move the mmo to skeleton crew and then start making next moneygrubbing operation.
Everything EA touches turns in to poop
There are many here on these very boards who thought this game would be released in late '09. My target date back in the summer of '09 was summer '11. Many thought I was crazy, yet that date seems very likely now and many are complaining that this game is taking forever.
Yet you come in here and moan about EA rushing Bioware to release an unfinished product. Interesting....
Comments
I fully agree with your answer. Of course the fear is there, but in my opinion they invested far too much in the trivial part of OLD MMO play (voices and 10 ears quests).
To be succesful where others failed, they really need to be the next big thing and offer something that WOW doesn't offer in core design and programming techniques and even game design (GW2 comes to mind from this last design perspective).
So my "real 3D" question is not a question of a feature: to me it will be evident if the game has the "full proof" of professional game design of a "world" we were spoiled with and "live in".
Contrary to what C says: the last 5 years were not because of lack of "polished" gameplay.
That was just an element.
To bring a new MMO with growing subscriptions, you'll have to add other things, more programming and more game design. The fact space was tagged on (after forum whining) shows these forgotten things are questionable.
These days: IF you bring a space opera ... you need the full swing of open world designs on all planets and make it a full open space design.
It will be a huge difference if you just jump from location to location and are surrounded by walls everywhere.
That kind of game play may be 1000 times polished and repolished: it will not make the difference.
Polish is not only 'programming without bugs", it is the way the game is implemented with NEW programming and NEW mechanics.
And like I said: I think only Blizzard has the means and GW2 added interesting design projects. Something SW:TOR is desperatly searching for right now.
If EA has any sense: they will postpone the launch. EA louse touched something everyone - who was not a fanatic fan of a non published game - could already see.
That's where the fear came in.
I think that would take a little long. Full content in space and on many planets? look how long it takes for just "one" space game or just "one" regular land based mmo.
When I see that I see mmo players who envision their perfect game (nothing wrong with that) and make such statements because surely it's just as easy as that.
As far as that EA Louse, the person touches upon what a group of people fear. It's these people who are feeding that fear. Whether that person is legit or just one of those people trying to stir up the pot.
I'm just amazed that so many people jumped on that person's words as gold. "but he/she says and confirms what people know or suspect"... well then it's just that easy for someone to create a blog and use what people know or suspect and just feed it back to them in a form that claims legitimacy. I think a healthy dose of "let's see" is in order.
The game has shown what it has shown. And until I start hearing "open beta is set for..." or "game will launch in x months" I think people need to stop acting like kids and expecting that things need to be shown "now". I know no other product where the creator/developer/manufacturer is asked to show their product as it is designed. And certianly no media project. No movie or CD or Book is put under the same scrutiny and demands.
Nothing needs to be shown "now" until the time comes for a true reveal. Then consumers can choose with their wallets.
EA has pressure as any large company that is developing an expensive and risky venture will have.
But if they release a reasonably polished product that is fun to play then I think people will line up to play it.
Regardless of whether gamers think it's a good mmorpg or not.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Talk about damning with faint praise... ^^ Neither Shadowbane nor Mythics Warhammer Dev's inspire much confidence in terms of PvP and game player retention. While I agree that TOR is likely to do well, its more owning to Biowares huge experience in crafting detailed worlds, than any individual Dev's. Not to mention that PvP in the west, is in the minority in terms of MMO games.
Its usually more a bone thrown to that demographic, than any real focus. Look at what has happened to many of the games that are PvP centric in the western markets. Even in CCP's EVE(a very PvP centric game) it has well more than half of its player base that stays in high sec and seldom if ever leaves. PvP isn't a make or break aspect for a game in the west.
I'm sorry Sovrath but this opinion is reasonable and you know there isn't much room for that on MMORPG and certainly not where this game is concerned.
but yeah, to call this game Fantastic is like calling Twilight the Godfather of vampire movies....
That's why they should have left the Space part out till after launch. And fully focussed on the ground based (or rather planet based) part of the game.
SWG didn't had space at launch and it wasn't bothering anyone either. We all enjoyed the heck out of the ground game. Despite it's flaws and issues. It was one of the best MMO experiences I've ever had.
When Jump to Lightspeed launched. It really added something substantial. And again. I enjoyed the heck out of it. Again despite all the issues it caused with the ground based performance.
It would have been far better to leave Space to a future expansion and do it right. Then just tag it on as they do now. Just for the sake of having it.
Just my 2 cents.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Actually, I completely agree.
but I also see their point of view with creating "movie moments". And that really is where Bioware is moving, toward "moments' where the player is a part of those moments. The design decision, though unpopular, really does fit in with how they do things.
In the end, this will be a bioware game, good or bad, to one's tastes or not.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Plus. Even if they had left it for later, I doubt they ever would have done X-Wing series type of simulator or had vast open space to explore in. However, I would have hoped a system that is a mixture of Wing Commander / X-Wing. That would have worked very well in this setting.
"The person who experiences greatness must have a feeling for the myth he is in."
Not really. It's all just speculating of course including what you're doing here. But the main difference that WoW had with preceding MMORPG's wasn't innovation or breakthrough game features, far from: it was polish, accessibility of its gameplay and smooth, fun gameplay. That, combined with lots of content made the game enjoyable enough for gamers to keep hanging around.
A lot of MMORPG's after WoW had cool new and intriguing innovations: what was missing was that they either lacked in polish or finished features or enough content to avoid the grind.
The large open worlds didn't make the difference: there have been MMORPG's that were far vaster and more wide open than WoW. Also, a combination of full open space design and open worlds isn't the ultimate requirement, as SWG and STO proved.
What most MMO gamers want is just to have a great time, with enough stuff to do and a smooth, polished fun gameplay experience. In the West that means little grind, and as little annoyances like bugs as possible.
But hey, believe whatever you like to believe, it's your own opinion after all.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
I am actually encouraged by the negativity, means that peeps have a deep passion for the SW universe. The negative comments have now reached the level for me that I am buying the collector's edition sight unseen lol.
I think both Bioware and EA are thrilled there's this much talk about SW:ToR. The "negativity" is laughable since nobody here has even played the game. It may suck, it may blow me away.
To get this much publicity without revealing much about the gameplay is astounding.
I loved Bioware to death until I first read of their buy out by EA. Personally, I don't think EA cares one way or another as long as you are giving them your money. Stars Wars and Bioware, as someone said, is going to sell boxes no matter what is said about the game. As for EA....
EA is the current king of cash shops. I can only imagine what they're going to end up doing with this next Star Wars game.
Look at games like Sims III. They took a lot of the things you could use in Sims II out of Sims III and put them in a cash shop. It was quite a big deal when Sims III came out. A few users on their Sims forums concluded to get everything back you could use in Sims II you'd have to spend around $300.
Sadly, I'm sure there are hundreds, maybe thousands, of people that actually did that.
SWTOR may turn out to be a great game, but I'm sad to know that a company like EA will be behind Bioware calling shots like that.
As much as I like Star Wars, I dislike EA more.
I'm waiting to see if they start selling extra content, weapons, classes etc. in mini DLC at 5-15 dollars a pop.
Ah well, more than anything I'll be happy to see I'm wrong sometime down the road after release.
I don't really know what to tell you other then the head of BioWare is now the EA Senior VP. BioWares titles since the EA "buyout" have still been received very well and are incredibly popular.
I personally have no ill feelings towards the direction BioWare is taking with the game, and I don't hold EA responsible, because frankly, a large part of BioWare is now on the top rung of EA. If Muzyka lets EA change the direction of the way this game is being made and the way BioWare puts out games while he's in a position to stop it, then I think its BioWares own fault.
The only thing I'll venture is with a 150 Mil + budget (I think that number at least was confirmed by someone official)...the game can't just afford to do well. It has to do EXTREMELY well to provide a decent return on investment. I don't think negative commentary on this site (or any other) is going to make EA/BIOWARE particulary nervous. I DO think the sheer size of thier investment will pretty much do that all on it's own...regardless of any of the pre-launch feedback.
You maybe right.
I'm not going to pretend I have any sort of insider knowledge of the hiearchy of their dealings or their politics since there's no way to have accurate knowledge of that aspect.
What I do have knowledge of is EA games that I've played in the past. Some of them successes and some less so. I look at games like Warhammer Online, Dragon Age, Sims, etc.
EA doesn't have a strong MMO track record yet and I am, personally, not a fan of individual DLC. That seems to be the direction EA is taking, because they can charge more for less rather than releasing a comprehensive expansion. We'll see what Bioware does.
I suppose it isn't relative yet either way seeing as it's all speculation.
Well, there is always the possibility that they might add on to their space component and flesh it out a bit more.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
First, let me state I'm a Bioware fan and I think this game is going to do well regardless of what some think.
Secondly, I actually don't have much interest in playing SW:ToR lol. Not because I think it's a bad thing, it's just not my thing. The whole SW thing is to much like fantasy for me (I know some don't see it that way and it's fine, I'm not knocking you for liking it or agreeing with me.). I may pick it up anyways eventually because it's Bioware though.
Now with that out of the way, I don't think space combat is going to see a great deal of fleshing out at least in the direction some players are wanting. Some want the type of space combat thats only really viable in a sandbox setting. Thats just not Biowares style. They are kings of story, but sandbox isn't their strong suite. So you may see the "Rail Shooter" style of space combat to be fleshed out, but I don't think you can really count on them abandoning that style of space combat.
I first heard this theory applied to Star Wars Galaxies during the NGE, and it didn't really hold true as we have all seen. I have yet to see a game where the forums are not predictive of a game's success or failure.
Ofcourse, success is subjective. Some define it as nothing less than the WOW killer. Others define success as staying in business. Somewhere between those two extremes is more likely true.
As long as I always have people to group with, I don't care how many people it has. What I don't want is spamming LFG channels for even 30 minutes trying to pull together a 4 or 5 man group.
There Is Always Hope!
I explained that the majority are casual players. It's smart marketing, not complicated at all.
I'm not exactly sure why you're directing this at me, I never said PVP was a make or break feature, I just mentioned the game had experienced (in PVP) developers on board, simply because another poster said there was no PVP experience on this dev team. Which doesn't =/= TOR must have PVP, or anything close to such a statement nor toward the quality of said PVP.
AS for whether a dev from shadowbane strikes confidence in possible decent PVP, I disagree with you on that. Maybe not for you, that's fine and you're welcome to such an opinion.I still strongly disagree
. I'll just say, they're one of the few teams in the history of PVP MMO's to actually create meaningful PVP.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Now take PvP for example:
Each character has his henchman: already a huge problem: a 10 (!) man Battleground/scenario's/whatever would make for some 40 avatars fighting. Simple: I don't see that happening.
Because you can't really have competitive PvP with all those NPC's running loose.
So ... perhaps henchman are taken out in PvP. Ok, but you can't take them out in so called promised world PvP can you ?Because they are an integral part of the player tools and avatar...
--
And with each of these findings (be that solo instances, story telling, voice overs, lack of complete open universe,..) you see the limits/problems coming.
@ C: I think if the planets really have invisible walls and can't be flown over, it simply will be the end. If the number one MMO has it, the next big thing simply can't leave them out. Invisible walls and narrow played paths (with or without story) is ' the end" these days (War, AoC, ST, Aion, ...)
The end in this case means : bye bye 1 M sustained Subs (EA standards).
If you bring anything less or restricted you are screwed as a game designer.
That's the problem. And btw: that was the problem for 5 years now. Anyone can live with a crash. No one will want to pay for less options.
Lol. What do you know, I check up on this site for the first time this morning, and this is the first thread I see in the main page list
About open, large worlds: not the main argument, SWG and Vanguard had worldsizes that made WoW look like a midget world, still they did worse in the end. WoW only now has a main world you can fly over about and had its own limitations during all those 5 years, and it didn't matter anyway for their success. The world only has to pass a threshold of openness and wideness, and after that the rest is extra.
Anyway, it's all just bullshit speculations, like every sports fan at a Champions League that knows better why this player should make it in the team and that player not and why this strategy should be used for guaranteed success or why that one not. We'll see. For some reason reading your posts you (desperately?) want to believe that other MMORPG's will fail. Fine, if that's what your conviction is, then please hold on to that no matter what.
I say let's see what 2011 and 2012 will bring, because there's no doubt that it'll become interesting.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
EA hasn't published ONE succesful MMO since original UO.
They rush the development team to release unfinished product, grab all the money they can and then move the mmo to skeleton crew and then start making next moneygrubbing operation.
Everything EA touches turns in to poop
There are many here on these very boards who thought this game would be released in late '09. My target date back in the summer of '09 was summer '11. Many thought I was crazy, yet that date seems very likely now and many are complaining that this game is taking forever.
Yet you come in here and moan about EA rushing Bioware to release an unfinished product. Interesting....
Proof: http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/242403/page/1