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Good news, everyone: The end of the learning skills

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  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 12,342


    Originally posted by batolemaeus
    I'm kinda weirded out by the fact that this change resulted in 15 pages of positive posts on shc and two pages of whine threads on eveo.Something is wrong.

    Statistics says you cannot do everything wrong and certain percentage of positive result is inevitable :)

  • bansanbansan Member Posts: 367

    I played for about 2 months, and had the learning skills dilemma.  But I just want to do an analysis on this, so feel free to point out any errors.  Let's check what out how different players are affected by the change.

    These are hypothetical numbers used for illustration, if you could find the actual numbers, the concept is the same.

    BEFORE change:

                                                       Skill points          Effective % inc

            1 year old players        Before Learning    from learning skill      Total skill points

    player 1, no learning:                12,000,000                      0%                12,000,000

    player 2, maxed learning:         12,000,000                    25%                15,000,000

    No surprise here, player 1 screwed himself by not doing learning skills first.

    AFTER change:

                                               % inc       Total future

                            Base         attribute    skill points

    player 1:    12,000,000     25%     12,000,000 + same

    player 2:    15,000,000     25%     15,000,000 + same

    Player 2 had an advantage before, but a ton of points were locked up in learning skills.  Now he gets "free" millions of points to put into useful things, without losing the benefit that he had before.

    Player 1 doesn't get anything now, but gets his learning rate normalized to player 2 for doing absolutely nothing.

    Is this fair?  Actually yes.  If CCP did not make this change, the gap between players 1 and 2 would continue to grow, until player one went back and maxed out learning skills.

    New players can rejoice, as they don't have to make the tough decision (that they may not even know about).  Have at it.

  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 12,342


    Originally posted by bansan

    BEFORE change:
    player 2, maxed learning: 
                   15,000,000AFTER change:
       
    player 2:    17,000,000 + same

    That is wrong. Player 2 will still have 15M skill points after the change.

  • batolemaeusbatolemaeus Member CommonPosts: 2,061


    Originally posted by Gdemami
    Originally posted by batolemaeus
    I'm kinda weirded out by the fact that this change resulted in 15 pages of positive posts on shc and two pages of whine threads on eveo.Something is wrong.

    Statistics says you cannot do everything wrong and certain percentage of positive result is inevitable :)


    It's the role reversal that irks me. Eveo is out-shc-ing shc.

  • bansanbansan Member Posts: 367

    Originally posted by Gdemami

     




    Originally posted by bansan



    BEFORE change:

    player 2, maxed learning: 

                   15,000,000

    AFTER change:

       

    player 2:    17,000,000 + same

     



    That is wrong. Player 2 will still have 15M skill points after the change.

    Ah, you are right, I did that too fast.  Thanks.

  • WycliffeWycliffe Member Posts: 354

    Hell yes. I trained my learning skills over a year ago (only an '09 player) and now I get to take the quarter million from each 1x skill and instantly max out a subsystem for Tengu. Looks like I'll be rocking a T3 with nearly all the support skills maxed out by New Years (currently have a Per/Wil build, so getting all those pesky missile supports to V atm and everything shield related except shield comps and tact shield man. are V and those are III and IV respectively so...)

  • WycliffeWycliffe Member Posts: 354

    Originally posted by batolemaeus

     




    Originally posted by Gdemami



    Originally posted by batolemaeus

    I'm kinda weirded out by the fact that this change resulted in 15 pages of positive posts on shc and two pages of whine threads on eveo.

    Something is wrong.



    Statistics says you cannot do everything wrong and certain percentage of positive result is inevitable :)



    It's the role reversal that irks me. Eveo is out-shc-ing shc.

    I think its partially because eveo has more hardcore EVE players and these forums are visited by people who just like mmos in general. I love EVE and don't see myself stopping anytime soon, but as for my involvement with EVE, it would be considered casual by eveo people I think. I only have 1 account/character, I mostly PVE, not in an nullsec alliance or involved in ingame politics.

    The one group being screwed over by this change are those so hardcore they willing to train up a throwaway alt.

  • batolemaeusbatolemaeus Member CommonPosts: 2,061


    Originally posted by Wycliffe

    Originally posted by batolemaeus
     


    Originally posted by Gdemami


    Originally posted by batolemaeus
    I'm kinda weirded out by the fact that this change resulted in 15 pages of positive posts on shc and two pages of whine threads on eveo.
    Something is wrong.

    Statistics says you cannot do everything wrong and certain percentage of positive result is inevitable :)



    It's the role reversal that irks me. Eveo is out-shc-ing shc.


    I think its partially because eveo has more hardcore EVE players and these forums are visited by people who just like mmos in general. I love EVE and don't see myself stopping anytime soon, but as for my involvement with EVE, it would be considered casual by eveo people I think. I only have 1 account/character, I mostly PVE, not in an nullsec alliance or involved in ingame politics.
    The one group being screwed over by this change are those so hardcore they willing to train up a throwaway alt.

    I was talking about scrapheap challenge, not this forum.

  • FaxxerFaxxer Member Posts: 3,247

    Originally posted by EricDanie

    For those who haven't understood, you're losing NOTHING.

    People who trained these skills will get all the skill points reimbursed to redistribute on other skills.

    Everyone is getting 12 attribute points on EACH attribute, which is the exact same thing you would get by maxing all learning skills.

    They're merely removing this time sink that especially newbies would suffer when looking for maximum training efficiency.

     best explanation yet.

    well said.

    personally i am thrilled because i'll get to remap 3.4 mil sp!  woot.

  • fatboy21007fatboy21007 Member Posts: 409

    well this SP will knock out jump drive operation and jump drive calaberation XD. was the last 2 skills before i needed the JF book/carrier book/dread book/rorq book/ and ofc cap ship book. damn this is nice as this will landing in all these ships next month! Btw i love this idea. mans easier training and  we get back wat we put in. So think of it this way ur about to save 1-2 months or more worth of training u did a while back  to new useful skills u acttually want now.

  • liberalguyliberalguy Member UncommonPosts: 118

    This is fantastic news and anybody complaining about the death of learning skills is, quite literally, a sperging neckbeard loser.

  • WycliffeWycliffe Member Posts: 354

    Originally posted by batolemaeus

     




    Originally posted by Wycliffe





    Originally posted by batolemaeus

     








    Originally posted by Gdemami








    Originally posted by batolemaeus

    I'm kinda weirded out by the fact that this change resulted in 15 pages of positive posts on shc and two pages of whine threads on eveo.

    Something is wrong.








    Statistics says you cannot do everything wrong and certain percentage of positive result is inevitable :)








    It's the role reversal that irks me. Eveo is out-shc-ing shc.





    I think its partially because eveo has more hardcore EVE players and these forums are visited by people who just like mmos in general. I love EVE and don't see myself stopping anytime soon, but as for my involvement with EVE, it would be considered casual by eveo people I think. I only have 1 account/character, I mostly PVE, not in an nullsec alliance or involved in ingame politics.

    The one group being screwed over by this change are those so hardcore they willing to train up a throwaway alt.




    I was talking about scrapheap challenge, not this forum.

    I know, just offering my 2 cents on why the sentiments are so different. Just seems like most of the people who visit this forum would be happy because for a more casual player the change is fantastic, however if you recycle alts not so much.

    Curious as if this would be considered an exploit. Atm, I have a Per/Wil mapping. Training Lv V of Clarity would earn me the maximum SP/Hr possible. I have quite sometime left before I can remap but would like another +600k SP to put in non Per/Wil skills. Would training Clarity V mainly for the purpose of reallocating to 'cheat' my current map limitations be punishable?

  • NussbaumNussbaum Member Posts: 27

    As CCP Greyscale describes it now this will actually lower the top training speed for people who currently train at optimum speed by 72 sp/hour. It would be a better idea to keep the 'learning' skill  and just give people that skill at level 5 from the get-go and give +10 extra attributes instead of +12 . That way noone would be worse off in comparison  to the current situation.

  • John.A.ZoidJohn.A.Zoid Member Posts: 1,531

    It's exciting cause I maxed every learning skill to lvl 5. 

    It sucks because I wont have the advantage over new players anymore. 

  • MagronMagron Member Posts: 12

    I can no longer deny the t ruth. CCP is reforming eve into a simple *complex for the genre but still simple* FPS to work properly with the console game they claim to be developing.

    If it's the complexity and depth that is attracting you to eve...keep walking....it's become a surface complexity of just many simple choices.

    I guess a little time will tell if they've judged the market correctly and going the easy way will pay or finish them.

    I guess I hope it finishes them...I am just a little whizzed at wasting almost a year.

    { Mod Edit }

  • DreadP1r4teDreadP1r4te Member Posts: 12

    I still think EVE Online is a flamboyant waste of money, because there is no real competition to the game. Anyone who comes in any significant amount of time after the game launched will always be at a handicap because there is no way to catch up to the high skill players. Not to mention their business model is shady at best; they charge a subscription and then make leveling up a time-based system, which means that if you want higher level skills you have to pay them tons of money over the duration, unless you're one of those godly miner type characters who mines and sells to make millions then buys the in game time codes.

    Sorry, just not my style. A system like that needs player skill not just typical "click to activate" modules and speed, distance, and angular velocity damage calculation. Make it so you have to physically aim your weapons with your mouse, etc, give it more interaction, and maybe I'd come back to it, but as it stands, I'm disgusted that I wasted 8 months on that game. Removing the learning skills will not affect the game in the slightest. The learning curve isn't so much of a learning curve as a "You must wait this amount of time to do anything fun" in this game. 

    Reminds me of trying to pit a capped out WoW character against a level 20 character, or maybe a Lt. Cmdr vs a VA in Star Trek Online. Its just stupid. What makes it worse is you can never catch up to that high level character because he just gets more and more skill points over time. Sure you might eventually catch up to his Raven fitting, but by then he's moved on to a Black Ops Battleship and you're still behind.

  • motorunmotorun Member UncommonPosts: 29

    Originally posted by DreadP1r4te

    I still think EVE Online is a flamboyant waste of money, because there is no real competition to the game. Anyone who comes in any significant amount of time after the game launched will always be at a handicap because there is no way to catch up to the high skill players.

    This crap again? Why is it that I was solowning 40+ mil characters when I barely had 5 mil? Even if you had max points it wouldnt help players like you.

     

    2 + 2 = 4

    mass is not the same as weight

    5 is the max skill level

     

  • fatboy21007fatboy21007 Member Posts: 409

    so the fella few post's  above me obviously didn't notice eve is about aliances and war's ^^ tbh games shouldnt keep the higher players at the level of new players. the higher players earned what they have and the new can earn it also. i mean if u can catch up to the high sp players then wth ur pissin on the veterans of eve who helped shape the game and their money in subs kept t alive. and personally i dont see 15 a month or 131 a year or  earning isk to pay for game time as an issue at all. This game offers a ton to do and their is no end game...You cant reach the endgame and max every last skill. (probally takes 10-20 years)..lol but personally to me eve is fun and ill always play it. and yes it constantly changes. but these changes are generally for the good, and if ya dont like it..thats fine then go play wow and leave us big boys to are fun games that dont cater to kids. :-P

  • DreadP1r4teDreadP1r4te Member Posts: 12

    You can lip off if you want good sir, I was just expressing my opinion of the game. And if those 40 mil + chars you were "solowning" were using those skill points effectively, I doubt you'd have fared quite as well. Either way, my point is that the game comes to no fair grounds. There are enough ship classes in the game that no matter how much you skill up to a new ship, your adversary might be in something completely different and higher Tech then your ship. Tech II Battlecruiser vs Tech I = Dead Tech 1 BC, or at best a stalemate depending on the Tech I's fitting. Drake can tank like a much bigger ship if built right, but the Nighthawk can tank like an even bigger ship and unload some massive DPS with Tech II HAMs. 

     

    Edit: I was in a Corp and Alliance, and we did quite well. I mostly got bored with the lack of actual skill required. Orbit target, Fire guns, Activate Invuln Field for a bit more tank, Yawn...  Yes indeed, you "big boys" go play your mindless repetition, I'll go play STO and fry your ass if I see you in PVP. Kgr8thx.

  • fatboy21007fatboy21007 Member Posts: 409

    you must have forgotten. It does not take long to get into t2 ships. and after 1 year in eve u can actually be eye to eye to the vets.  If you cant fit your ship rite then its not our faults. and  No new player in anygame should be able to catch up to vets instantly. See u fail to realize their is empire and most players live there their first year to build up isk/ships and skills then they move to low sec or 0.0. once u get into t2 ships and have a full t2 setup (again doesnt take long) unless ur enemy has officer mods its setup based instead of skill.  and its not hard to down t2 ships in t1 their i faction mods u can buy to make ur ship like t2 (and sum use these because of lower cpu and power req's). So in short vets only have the upperhand on the amount of ships they can fly but only for a certain amount of time. once u specd up u would actually be on their lvl. then it becomes the fitting of ur ship that will save you. and again Eve shouldnt have a easy button.   and btw goto 0.0 during a war n tell me if its boring.. Empire wars are weak stuff. 0.0 is here the real fun happens any1 will tell ya that.

  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 12,342


    Originally posted by DreadP1r4te

    There are enough ship classes in the game that no matter how much you skill up to a new ship, your adversary might be in something completely different and higher Tech then your ship. Tech II Battlecruiser vs Tech I = Dead Tech 1 BC, or at best a stalemate depending on the Tech I's fitting. Drake can tank like a much bigger ship if built right, but the Nighthawk can tank like an even bigger ship and unload some massive DPS with Tech II HAMs. 

    Bigger being equal better applies for pure PVE only.

    Once you consider other usage of your ship, other attributes like speed, agility, ewar, specific ship bonuses, price and other factors will play significant role in your ship selection and that is where skill system is actually going to help you to catch up with older players.

  • DreadP1r4teDreadP1r4te Member Posts: 12

    Originally posted by fatboy21007

    you must have forgotten. It does not take long to get into t2 ships. and after 1 year in eve u can actually be eye to eye to the vets.  If you cant fit your ship rite then its not our faults. and  No new player in anygame should be able to catch up to vets instantly. See u fail to realize their is empire and most players live there their first year to build up isk/ships and skills then they move to low sec or 0.0. once u get into t2 ships and have a full t2 setup (again doesnt take long) unless ur enemy has officer mods its setup based instead of skill.  and its not hard to down t2 ships in t1 their i faction mods u can buy to make ur ship like t2 (and sum use these because of lower cpu and power req's). So in short vets only have the upperhand on the amount of ships they can fly but only for a certain amount of time. once u specd up u would actually be on their lvl. then it becomes the fitting of ur ship that will save you. and again Eve shouldnt have a easy button.   and btw goto 0.0 during a war n tell me if its boring.. Empire wars are weak stuff. 0.0 is here the real fun happens any1 will tell ya that.

    Been there, done that. Sure, flying a T2 ship doesn't take long if you spec right for it from the start, but it still takes longer then I have the patience for. Missions get dull, I play MMO's to PVP, not get a game then wait a few months to PVP. Too much delay. Hell I started playing STO and was PVPing the next day, coz the PVP matches are intelligently segregated by rank, so you don't end up against overpowered enemies. I miss the 0.0 risk and reward but it wasn't really risk, it was predictable. Same systems gate camped every time. And they were either completely ganked or not ganked at all, so it was either "Yes, I'm gonna make it" or "No, I'm not gonna make it." That's not really skill, and maybe my opinion would be different if I had been in a better Corp/Alliance, sure, but I wasn't, so my take away was this game sucks, because everyone either outnumbers me or outskills me. Had a few good fights, fun times, but most of the game is spent waiting or doing missions to make ISK or whatever. Plenty to do, yes, but each of those things to do was mindbogglingly repetitive, like real life, which I suppose the game did a good job since they were going for a "realistic sci-fi experience" but I don't play games for realism, I play them to escape realism. So yes, the fact that I leveled up to level cap in STO in 2 weeks just doing PVP is exactly what I want. Hell that wouldn't have been 1 new skill rank in EVE Online. 

     

    To each their own. My opinion = Eve Sucks. Your opinion = Eve rocks. Good for you. Now go gate camp someone.

  • fatboy21007fatboy21007 Member Posts: 409

    well obviously you perfer everything to be handed to ya. Then STO is the place for ya and Eve will never be. personally i perfer to earn everything i get and not end up getting everything handed to me like im a little kid. but ahh just my opinion. just curious why did u post in a eve thread if ya hate the game ?

  • DreadP1r4teDreadP1r4te Member Posts: 12

    Originally posted by Gdemami

     




    Originally posted by DreadP1r4te



    There are enough ship classes in the game that no matter how much you skill up to a new ship, your adversary might be in something completely different and higher Tech then your ship. Tech II Battlecruiser vs Tech I = Dead Tech 1 BC, or at best a stalemate depending on the Tech I's fitting. Drake can tank like a much bigger ship if built right, but the Nighthawk can tank like an even bigger ship and unload some massive DPS with Tech II HAMs. 




     

    Bigger being equal better applies for pure PVE only.

    Once you consider other usage of your ship, other attributes like speed, agility, ewar, specific ship bonuses, price and other factors will play significant role in your ship selection and that is where skill system is actually going to help you to catch up with older players.

    Obviously didn't read my post. If I skill for a Drake, my opponent could be in a higher tier ship by the time I train for that ship and related skills/modules. Drake gets bonuses to Shields and Missiles, so I fit it with shield mods, rigs, and HM's coz the Drake is too slow to get in range for HAMs. By the time I do that, my opponent is now in a T2 Command Ship, like the Nighthawk, which gets bonuses to shields, missiles, AND it has crazy ass passive resists. See my point now?

    The skill system is unique to be sure but it rewards players who don't play often just the same as players who do play often. I have no incentive to do missions because all I get is money. Ooo, now I can afford a new rig! Lame. I don't want a new rig, I want a new ship, but despite playing for 48 hours straight, I am only 48 hours closer to my goal, instead of being rewarded for playing that often like a traditional MMO does. That's my biggest problem with the game.

  • Ralphie2449Ralphie2449 Member UncommonPosts: 577

    That really interesting, i might even consider playing eve now xD

    (Is lazy) when exactly this change/expansion will be released? approximate month?date?

     

    And btw it is fair because noneone should have an advantage because he played and payed longer over someone new but because he is better skill wise

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