Even if they were somehow able to balance MMO PvP perfectly, people would still complain that any class they lost to or had better gear than them is OP. It just isn't worth worrying about.
It's truly amazing how few people actually understand what the changes mean for rogues, and why they're a big deal. Everyone thinks all that happened is "sab spike damage got balanced" and "bards can't heal as many people in a raid any more".
1. The changes to Sab completely changes how the soul works in PvE, in addition to nerfing sustained damae to be maybe 75% of what any other calling can do. This is still one of the best rogue DPS specs (if not the best). That's how bad the other rogue DPS souls are. SIX souls dedicated to DPS (more than any other calling) and rogues are dead last in DPS, and not by a small margin.
2. Bards were already less useful than chloromancers for various reasons. The changes didn't open another slot for Bards in raids. They opened another slot for a chloro mage or a healing cleric. The reasons to bring bards along on a raid at all right now are very few. First, they offer a 5% stat buff that no other calling has. You need exactly one bard for that. They also offer a 20% run speed in combat buff that no other calling has. The same bard can do that as well, if you actually need it. Second, it's good to have at least one leather-wearer in your raid so the leather drops don't all go to waste. Other than that there is literally no reason to bring a bard to a raid at all. Everything else they do, a chloro or cleric can do better.
No one's going to waste DPS slots on a rogue in a raid if they have a better option, unless they basically have the boss on farm status.
And no one needs rogues to tank, because Warriors have a much easier time getting gear, more different tank specs, and are a dime a dozen.
That's where rogues are right now - basically down to one slot in a raid.
The worst of it is once the general public figures this out, it's going to take a long time and some truly overpowered buffs to make the perception that "rogues suck" go away again. During that time it's going to be nigh impossible for a rogue to get a group in end-game PvE.
It's truly amazing how few people actually understand what the changes mean for rogues, and why they're a big deal. Everyone thinks all that happened is "sab spike damage got balanced" and "bards can't heal as many people in a raid any more".
1. The changes to Sab completely changes how the soul works in PvE, in addition to nerfing sustained damae to be maybe 75% of what any other calling can do. This is still one of the best rogue DPS specs (if not the best). That's how bad the other rogue DPS souls are. SIX souls dedicated to DPS (more than any other calling) and rogues are dead last in DPS, and not by a small margin.
2. Bards were already less useful than chloromancers for various reasons. The changes didn't open another slot for Bards in raids. They opened another slot for a chloro mage or a healing cleric. The reasons to bring bards along on a raid at all right now are very few. First, they offer a 5% stat buff that no other calling has. You need exactly one bard for that. They also offer a 20% run speed in combat buff that no other calling has. The same bard can do that as well, if you actually need it. Second, it's good to have at least one leather-wearer in your raid so the leather drops don't all go to waste. Other than that there is literally no reason to bring a bard to a raid at all. Everything else they do, a chloro or cleric can do better.
No one's going to waste DPS slots on a rogue in a raid if they have a better option, unless they basically have the boss on farm status.
And no one needs rogues to tank, because Warriors have a much easier time getting gear, more different tank specs, and are a dime a dozen.
That's where rogues are right now - basically down to one slot in a raid.
The worst of it is once the general public figures this out, it's going to take a long time and some truly overpowered buffs to make the perception that "rogues suck" go away again. During that time it's going to be nigh impossible for a rogue to get a group in end-game PvE.
I play both Bard and Sab builds your 'reasons' for rogue being nerfed are clearly because you think slapping a handful a points in both means your intiled to the 'best' the soul has to offer - much like the Ranger soul if you don't invert to the soul you wont get as much our of it as you would.
Bard healing for me has gone UP due to the bard the background numbers behind the class has changed - sure I can't 'raid heal' has much but the 31 point talent has saved my raid group from wiping some many times that to the mass spam of the 5 point powered heal,
added to the fact you picked ONE Anthum out of both that and the Fanfairs as 'the only useful one bards are needed for' means clearly you havn't understood how useful stacking them between bards is or you much lower level then you seems to make out and havn't used most of your skills to full effect - oh and Chloros got hit as much as Bards did but they havn't replaced us nor we have for them.
I don't know how your playing your Bard but it does seem to me that you havn't used your bard to full effect past the 'dps = heal' machinic of the class
Im not sure but I dont see the Nerf with my toons at all. I mean I believe they are trying to create equity in the playing. Some toons are over powered while others arent. Balance is key to these games.
Its easily one of the most unbalenced games right now I have ever played. Clerics healing is superior, pyromancer mages are gods of pvp with their CC immunity, 30% chance on regular cast to stun, damage shields, kiting abilities, and Ground of Strength damage reduction. Warriors are decent, although its very hard for them to get into range, and Rogues are useless in both PvP and PvE.
It's truly amazing how few people actually understand what the changes mean for rogues, and why they're a big deal. Everyone thinks all that happened is "sab spike damage got balanced" and "bards can't heal as many people in a raid any more".
1. The changes to Sab completely changes how the soul works in PvE, in addition to nerfing sustained damae to be maybe 75% of what any other calling can do. This is still one of the best rogue DPS specs (if not the best). That's how bad the other rogue DPS souls are. SIX souls dedicated to DPS (more than any other calling) and rogues are dead last in DPS, and not by a small margin.
2. Bards were already less useful than chloromancers for various reasons. The changes didn't open another slot for Bards in raids. They opened another slot for a chloro mage or a healing cleric. The reasons to bring bards along on a raid at all right now are very few. First, they offer a 5% stat buff that no other calling has. You need exactly one bard for that. They also offer a 20% run speed in combat buff that no other calling has. The same bard can do that as well, if you actually need it. Second, it's good to have at least one leather-wearer in your raid so the leather drops don't all go to waste. Other than that there is literally no reason to bring a bard to a raid at all. Everything else they do, a chloro or cleric can do better.
No one's going to waste DPS slots on a rogue in a raid if they have a better option, unless they basically have the boss on farm status.
And no one needs rogues to tank, because Warriors have a much easier time getting gear, more different tank specs, and are a dime a dozen.
That's where rogues are right now - basically down to one slot in a raid.
The worst of it is once the general public figures this out, it's going to take a long time and some truly overpowered buffs to make the perception that "rogues suck" go away again. During that time it's going to be nigh impossible for a rogue to get a group in end-game PvE.
I play both Bard and Sab builds your 'reasons' for rogue being nerfed are clearly because you think slapping a handful a points in both means your intiled to the 'best' the soul has to offer - much like the Ranger soul if you don't invert to the soul you wont get as much our of it as you would.
Bard healing for me has gone UP due to the bard the background numbers behind the class has changed - sure I can't 'raid heal' has much but the 31 point talent has saved my raid group from wiping some many times that to the mass spam of the 5 point powered heal,
added to the fact you picked ONE Anthum out of both that and the Fanfairs as 'the only useful one bards are needed for' means clearly you havn't understood how useful stacking them between bards is or you much lower level then you seems to make out and havn't used most of your skills to full effect - oh and Chloros got hit as much as Bards did but they havn't replaced us nor we have for them.
I don't know how your playing your Bard but it does seem to me that you havn't used your bard to full effect past the 'dps = heal' machinic of the class
All the other buffs bard has to offer can be replaced by another class that's a lot more useful and wanted for PvE. In a 20-man raid, your buffs are going to be covered whether or not you have a bard. Sure, Bard can improve the buffs to be a bit stronger. In the grand scheme of things, that extra 12 to whatever stats isn't going to make that much difference. Or in the case of Anthems, another 30%. So you get 13% reduction to ability costs instead of 10%. Whoop de friggin do. No one's going to take a Bard instead of a Chloro because of that. Likewise for any of the other 'better' buffs Bard can do. And that is still not touching on the fact that the only thing Bard has to offer besides heals is Buffs. Unfortunately for Bards, when it comes right down to it, utility abilities will always take precedence over buffs. You can always do the content without extra strength and dexterity. You can always do it without extra int and wisdom. You can always do it without a little extra armor. But you CAN'T do it without cleanses. And a battle rez is infinitely more valuable than any buffs Bard has to offer. And that's still ignoring the fact that a Chloro mage also has heals that are better than a Bard's in virtually every way possible.
If you want to make Bard competitive and desirable for PvE, here are a few things that are probably necessary:
-Longer range. Twenty meters is not enough. End of story.
-Bigger heals. Verse of Vitality Should probably be about doubled. Considering it's on a 1min CD it should have a real impact. It's barely noticable. Bard heals in general need to be buffed, probably 10-25% percent, or whatever is needed to bring it more in line with what a Chloro can do.
-Added utility of some sort. Some kind of cleanse and some kind of rez. I could see a group cleanse that hits up to 5 people (one per combo point) and removes one debuff. Also, every other calling has a rez. Why the heck are rogues left out in the cold?
Also, I play the heck out of my Bard, whenever I get the chance. Which is rare, because most people make the smart choice and go with the more useful Chloro/Necro mage instead.
The mistake you're making is that you're just looking at your Bard spec, and that makes you think you have all kinds of useful, needed buffs to offer. To really see how useful Bard is, you have to look at the big picture, like a smart raid leader will. And when you're doing progression PvE you pick the classes and specs that give you the best chance of success. This is why in their current state, rogues will get left out.
Please note that I am not trying to imply in any way that other support classes (including Chloro) should be nerfed. I'm saying Bard in particular and rogue souls in general need to be buffed, pretty much across the board, except perhaps Saboteur. Sab really is fine right now. The way Sab is designed it should never have been the best Rogue DPS spec. It is intended for high spike damage and high AOE damage. Other rogue souls like Marksman, Nightblade, and Bladedancer should be the ones that are competetive in sustained damage compared to other callings.
Seriously this is beyond me. The reason that the game is a shameless rip off with no innovative idea whatsoever is overlooked, but a patch with absolutely irrelevant balance changes is somewhat strong enough to quit the game puzzles me completely.
The people who are screaming the most and "quitting", are the same people who throw tantrums over any MMO they play. Some players just won't be happy unless they can faceroll to victory without impunity.
This!
Nomatter what devs do in any game there will always be complainers who quit if its not going there way.
Games played:AC1-Darktide'99-2000-AC2-Darktide/dawnsong2003-2005,Lineage2-2005-2006 and now Darkfall-2009..... In between WoW few months AoC few months and some f2p also all very short few weeks.
Seriously this is beyond me. The reason that the game is a shameless rip off with no innovative idea whatsoever is overlooked, but a patch with absolutely irrelevant balance changes is somewhat strong enough to quit the game puzzles me completely.
The people who are screaming the most and "quitting", are the same people who throw tantrums over any MMO they play. Some players just won't be happy unless they can faceroll to victory without impunity.
For some of us, the freedom of the Ascended Soul system was what tipped us in favor of the game. Since Head Start, most "balance" nerfs have actually been designed not to tune, but to kill, any builds that allow a player to play their Calling in a way that doesn't neatly fit into the tiny, predefined box of what Fantasy RPGs expect for Warriors, Rogues, Clerics and Mages.
There are over powered builds that fit the straight and narrow. These are pretty much untouched and in some cases have been buffed.
It's always a concern when the rare title launches that offers broad freedom in designing your own class. Will they stick to the concept, even though it's difficult to balance so many options? Or will they just say "hell with it" and dumb down the game so it's easier to manage.
Basically, Trion caved in record setting time. It's almost like the SWG NGE, but the process of conversion started right after they started selling boxes.
That's why a lot of people are leaving over it. It's not just the typical "nerf everything in sight, even if the nerfs cut our player base in half with in three months" sort of "balancing" we see from most MMORPGs. They are actually deliberately killing the core concept of the game's character design.
They went from promising that Rogue Tanks, Healing Mages, DPS Clerics and Ranged Warriors would be just as viable as builds that are more traditionally attributed to other roles, to just getting rid of the concept all together. (There are signs already that the next step will be to cut way down on the number of viable builds, reguardless of traditional class roles, just so they have a narrower focus when trying to balance what's left).
So, that's the main issue.
I don't know if it was a "bait and switch", or if they just found they weren't up to the task of balancing the system and paniced. Either way, disappointing.
Seriously this is beyond me. The reason that the game is a shameless rip off with no innovative idea whatsoever is overlooked, but a patch with absolutely irrelevant balance changes is somewhat strong enough to quit the game puzzles me completely.
The people who are screaming the most and "quitting", are the same people who throw tantrums over any MMO they play. Some players just won't be happy unless they can faceroll to victory without impunity.
For some of us, the freedom of the Ascended Soul system was what tipped us in favor of the game. Since Head Start, most "balance" nerfs have actually been designed not to tune, but to kill, any builds that allow a player to play their Calling in a way that doesn't neatly fit into the tiny, predefined box of what Fantasy RPGs expect for Warriors, Rogues, Clerics and Mages.
There are over powered builds that fit the straight and narrow. These are pretty much untouched and in some cases have been buffed.
It's always a concern when the rare title launches that offers broad freedom in designing your own class. Will they stick to the concept, even though it's difficult to balance so many options? Or will they just say "hell with it" and dumb down the game so it's easier to manage.
Basically, Trion caved in record setting time. It's almost like the SWG NGE, but the process of conversion started right after they started selling boxes.
That's why a lot of people are leaving over it. It's not just the typical "nerf everything in sight, even if the nerfs cut our player base in half with in three months" sort of "balancing" we see from most MMORPGs. They are actually deliberately killing the core concept of the game's character design.
They went from promising that Rogue Tanks, Healing Mages, DPS Clerics and Ranged Warriors would be just as viable as builds that are more traditionally attributed to other roles, to just getting rid of the concept all together. (There are signs already that the next step will be to cut way down on the number of viable builds, reguardless of traditional class roles, just so they have a narrower focus when trying to balance what's left).
So, that's the main issue.
I don't know if it was a "bait and switch", or if they just found they weren't up to the task of balancing the system and paniced. Either way, disappointing.
Out of curiosity, how is it possible for anyone to know all this without being a developer? You aren't just claiming they made a change in direction, you are saying you understand their decision making process and suddenly changed design philosophy. Do you understand their motives as well? Not flaming ya, really just curious...
He's just frustrated that warriors were toned down to the level of the other callings. It's the same story in any MMO that balances content. Most of the time those affected can't or don't want to see the bigger picture and claim murder and the end of all things <insert game here>. The reality is that the latest patch, at least for now, promoted a much bigger diversity in all callings except for mages. Once a specific mage soul is toned down and some rogue souls are improved, things will look even better.
PvP is definitely more enjoyable after the latest patch.
I still feel the freedom in arranging my roles and souls. I never look at what is OP, I look at what fits to my playstyle and in this game I am able to finetune my char exactly to the way that I want to play. I love it and I see no big difference since patch 1.1
Seems rift has settled down into the trend of massive nerfs like other mmo.
This has turned the rift forum into a frenzy with complaints of 2 of the 4 classes been heavily nerfed and one lifted to the new OP status.
Guess rift dev are human and do make errors afterall.Mind you making such nerfs jst before the end of the free month seems like bad buisness planning.
Anyhow i only play rift for 1-2 hrs a day at best so most nerfs do not affect me .Good casual game until i find something better.
It is bad business planning. Although some of the nerfs were welcomed. They should have at least wated until ppl resubbed to start talking about nerfs.
Thats what I like about Trion , why they want players to make a choice instead of keeping them on , and hoping it wouldn´t be true .
Look players are players , in the end most quit after a launch , it seems like MMO launches are lately nothing but a hype rush.
Join it play it and quit , waiting for the next .
It is cause they announced the nerf ahead , it sets them apart from other commercial enterprises .
thus the damage is less afterwards , people were informed and it was discussed .
Instead of just stealth nerfing that is so common lately .
Wait, what? A newly released game needs massive balance adjustments once the devs start crunching numbers from live servers?
Say it isn't so!
Shocked, I am shocked at this news! Why can't developers just perfectly balance tens of thousands of inter-related functions perfectly on the first try? How can a team of a few dozen designers not find every flaw, bug, exploit, and unbalanced feature faster than a million subscribers can?
I should say I'm outraged! Why, if my class combo was ridiculously overpowered to the point where it was the clear "best", despite there being many other combos, I can't imagine any reason why this should change! I mean, there has to be a "best", right? What would be the POINT if there wasn't an "I win!" button in the game? How would people know what to play if they couldn't just find "the best" class/build/combo and play that?
OK, taking off the sarcasm cap for a moment -- seriously, did any sane, intelligent, aware, person NOT expect this? Post-release patches and balance adjustments are both inevitable and necessary, and getting "outraged" at them is like getting "outraged" when your cat pukes on your shoes. It's part of the nature of the beast. I'd expect it in any MMO I play, and if it doesn't happen, it's probably a sign the developers don't give a shit and the game is doomed. Constant tweaks, fixes, and adjustments are the sign of an active, living, game -- stagnation is a sign the only job the developers have any more is swapping out the hamsters in the server room.
This is especially true in a game like Rift, which places such a high value on the diversity of classes (souls). If any soul is too powerful, or any combo of souls is too powerful, it completely undermines the concept of "build your own class" by mixing and matching souls. Thus, souls are going to be rigorously rebalanced to make sure no combination is too good or a "must have" for any given role.
To anyone who says "Well, why don't they just buff the others, then?" -- First, you're a moron. Second, because it's a lot easier to lower one than to raise 32, and that path just leads to everything being "buffed" to the point where numbers inflate to meaninglessness... those rats you kill at level one will have a million hit points because you're dealing 300,000 hit points per attack. (Since I grew up in an era when your 1st level magic-user had 1-4 hit points and could easily be disemboweled by a housecat, I find even classic EQs hit point numbers to be ridiculous, but that's just me.)
Seems rift has settled down into the trend of massive nerfs like other mmo.
This has turned the rift forum into a frenzy with complaints of 2 of the 4 classes been heavily nerfed and one lifted to the new OP status.
Guess rift dev are human and do make errors afterall.Mind you making such nerfs jst before the end of the free month seems like bad buisness planning.
Anyhow i only play rift for 1-2 hrs a day at best so most nerfs do not affect me .Good casual game until i find something better.
expecting everything to be balanced in a MMORPG as large as complex as the ones out now to be perfect is as about as stupid and futile as expecting the sun to rise in the west and set in the east. No matter what the Dev's do someone will always gripe and complain that any and all classes(or soul combinations for rift) are more powerful than what they play and demand for nerfs. if you dont like that fact dont play MMO's stick to offline games so we dont have to hear you gripe and complain.
"Possibly we humans can exist without actually having to fight. But many of us have chosen to fight. For what reason? To protect something? Protect what? Ourselves? The future? If we kill people to protect ourselves and this future, then what sort of future is it, and what will we have become? There is no future for those who have died. And what of those who did the killing? Is happiness to be found in a future that is grasped with blood stained hands? Is that the truth?"
Seems rift has settled down into the trend of massive nerfs like other mmo.
This has turned the rift forum into a frenzy with complaints of 2 of the 4 classes been heavily nerfed and one lifted to the new OP status.
Guess rift dev are human and do make errors afterall.Mind you making such nerfs jst before the end of the free month seems like bad buisness planning.
Anyhow i only play rift for 1-2 hrs a day at best so most nerfs do not affect me .Good casual game until i find something better.
expecting everything to be balanced in a MMORPG as large as complex as the ones out now to be perfect is as about as stupid and futile as expecting the sun to rise in the west and set in the east. No matter what the Dev's do someone will always gripe and complain that any and all classes(or soul combinations for rift) are more powerful than what they play and demand for nerfs. if you dont like that fact dont play MMO's stick to offline games so we dont have to hear you gripe and complain.
by your logic then it served no purpose to balance the first time around.This was present as news of happening in rift and there no denying it happened.
i have posted both the positive and negative of what is current issues and happening in rift and all mo i played if you can be bothered to go thru 7 yrs+ i been on this site.
1.1 Patch was a joke. The changes they made were simply knee jerk reactions from people crying in the lower level bracket, and completely ignoring the balance issues at 50 i.e. they went way overboard with the Sab nerf, but buffed mages, who at 50 (pyro) were already doing much more damage than Sab's, whilst being immune to CC and having far greater survivability.
But what do expect, when they have the warhammer *cough bightwizard* dev in charge of balance.
Given the diversity of roles in the warfronts, I'd say that the patch was a massive success in comparison to the past. Now they only need to adjust one soul from mage tree and raise some of the rogue ones perhaps.
As for the mages, prior to the patch there were only of the pyro variety (and a few chloro healers). That hasn't changed much after the patch, so adjustments are necessary.
Seems rift has settled down into the trend of massive nerfs like other mmo.
This has turned the rift forum into a frenzy with complaints of 2 of the 4 classes been heavily nerfed and one lifted to the new OP status.
Guess rift dev are human and do make errors afterall.Mind you making such nerfs jst before the end of the free month seems like bad buisness planning.
Anyhow i only play rift for 1-2 hrs a day at best so most nerfs do not affect me .Good casual game until i find something better.
{mod edit}
its a typo it should read "i know for a fact that WHAT you are crying for is impossible." Balance in a virtual world is damn near impossible. Say the Dev's go through and make all PvE damage scale starting at 10.5% then increase every 20 levels and PvP damage scale starting at 5.25% then increase every 40 levels. what would keep players from saying that because the mage is OP in PvE that means the Mage would be OP in PvP? nothing becuase they assume that because a mage non crit at lvl 50 is 10k in PvE that would mean that same mage can do 10k non crit in PvP. its an endless cycle the devs do a tweak one way only to be whined at that the fix makes 1 class type OP. its the same in PvE only a little different. In PvE players always whine the mobs are too hard they need better equipment. then the players will whine the mobs are too easy and they increase the level of difficulty of the mobs. its a endless cycle of tweaks nerfs and addidtions that will cause game play to become stagnant because the devs would have no time to do some real additions to the game. If you want to see what happens to a few games that the devs have been lax on adding new content to take a look at RF Online Vindictus and Allods Online.
"Possibly we humans can exist without actually having to fight. But many of us have chosen to fight. For what reason? To protect something? Protect what? Ourselves? The future? If we kill people to protect ourselves and this future, then what sort of future is it, and what will we have become? There is no future for those who have died. And what of those who did the killing? Is happiness to be found in a future that is grasped with blood stained hands? Is that the truth?"
its a typo it should read "i know for a fact that WHAT you are crying for is impossible." Balance in a virtual world is damn near impossible. Say the Dev's go through and make all PvE damage scale starting at 10.5% then increase every 20 levels and PvP damage scale starting at 5.25% then increase every 40 levels. what would keep players from saying that because the mage is OP in PvE that means the Mage would be OP in PvP? nothing becuase they assume that because a mage non crit at lvl 50 is 10k in PvE that would mean that same mage can do 10k non crit in PvP. its an endless cycle the devs do a tweak one way only to be whined at that the fix makes 1 class type OP. its the same in PvE only a little different. In PvE players always whine the mobs are too hard they need better equipment. then the players will whine the mobs are too easy and they increase the level of difficulty of the mobs. its a endless cycle of tweaks nerfs and addidtions that will cause game play to become stagnant because the devs would have no time to do some real additions to the game. If you want to see what happens to a few games that the devs have been lax on adding new content to take a look at RF Online Vindictus and Allods Online.
It's not impossible. People do it on a regular basis for things that are far more complex. The reason why it seems to be impossible is because the people responsible for balancing the game are not necessarily the most quantitatively oriented.
It's a flaw in the industry at the moment, since traditionally people with backgrounds in the arts are being asked to do things that they haven't been trained to do i.e. numerical optimization. You can see a great example in WoW's own community, when a proper subset is much more aware of the game than Blizzard itself. A great example would be WoW's devs need for more "data", when the people at Elitist Jerks use simulators and other techniques to actually achieve global optima.
The biggest reason why the necessary people aren't being used for the job is simply the cost; hiring a person with a degree in a science is much more costly than paying some guy with game design experience. People with great quantitative backgrounds like engineers and mathematicians are used for graphics engines, but they are still left out of the loop when it comes to game design, particularly in MMO's. For that very reason you often seem to see absolutely no convergence when it comes to balance (whether it be PvE, or PvP) and things are sadly not fixed until the community has to do the calculations itself.
It is MUCH cheaper to leave things unbalanced and not pay the man hours necessary to achieve it perfectly, or let the community put in the necessary work as a sort of side game (there are people who like to do those kinds of things and have ready access to the software).
Until the industry changes at a fundamental level, you will continue to see this complete lack of convergence when it comes to game balance.
Seriously this is beyond me. The reason that the game is a shameless rip off with no innovative idea whatsoever is overlooked, but a patch with absolutely irrelevant balance changes is somewhat strong enough to quit the game puzzles me completely.
Because its fun? I see plenty of flaws with rift but I find it fun. It may not be a fun that lasts a long time as its all been done before (I played WAR. Rifts are a better version of PQ's) but I still find it fun. I found WoW fun for a long time to but its grown stale and the quality has dropped significantly imo. I found EvE fun for a couple years till it became stale.
That said my main in rift is also a warrior. Was a reaver. Did the nerfs piss me off? Eh yea but not enough to rage over it like some have. In a themepark MMO its to be expected. If I'm still playing a year down the road reavers will be topdawg again and I will enjoy it all the more. If I'm not oh well.
Whats funny is I am workin on a mage now. Because of this some simply assume I am doing it because they are the new FOTM. Odly enough I dont participate in rifts PvP (because of all the CC and imbalance) nor am I useing the OP as hell soul(s). Some people just cant/wont play what they find fun because its not the FOTM or OP. Personally Trion can do all the nerfing/buffing they want. I'll play what I find fun regardless of its concidered state. That being OP or UP of course.
Patch 1.1 did not outrage the majority of Rift Fans. The worst it did was annoy the little gamers who used to play with Gamesharks just to get anywhere in single player games. A few nerfs of an overly OP class is not going to ruin the game for the vast majority that realize that the devs have already done more in 1 month than teams in any other MMO do in the first 6 months of being live.
1.1 was a pvp fix, more or less. Good warriors still stomp people, just with less one shotting duing CC locks. Riftblade warriors wont be able to run around spamming a 500+dmg ranged skill with no cooldown and instant cast as well.
Rogues got really the only real PVE nerf, with sabo's being brought down to mid-pack DPS like all the other range DPS classes (including marksman, another rogue range DPS class)
Other than that, the pyromancer pvp has gatherd more attention than it use to, for what it was. Its basically the same mage pvp glass connon class it was before, however, given the mage communities outcries (they were mostly for pve btw) the remaining rift community who endured nerfs is focusing their energies on getting that mage soul nerfed. I will say (i am a mage) that pvp pyro was terribly boring. You sat in Ground of Strength, one of two tine ground effect buffs you must stand in to gain its benefit. Being inside GOS makes you immune to CC, something a class that is one shot by anyone almost needs given the amount of CC in this game (most pyros have about 3.8k-4k HP, as a pryo fire soul point skill removes HP for fire dmg). However it doesnt stop there with GOS, you get 30% damage reduction in it, ok now were 4 shot...but wait, theres more...you also stand to place a 2sec stun when attacking from this effect. It use to stun lock, not it only kind of stun locks. Add this all to a small damage increase, and well, Rift community that isnt mages want this class nerfed...bad, more as a revenge nerf tbh, but its still a terribly unfun, low skill required pvp soul, as are most the FOTM per class.
So in short, anger over the needlessly strong classes that were pvp nerfed is now being focused on the pyromancer, since its deemed OP. In PVE the warrior is king of DPS in greenscale (using wonderful 2 button macro mashing to achive best in game dps), followed by rogue melee, tailed up by all range DPS classes. PVP is still as boring and "either you stomp the other team or get stomped" mechanics, with a super rare "decent" fight. Diffrence is, the 70% of the community that rolled a FOTM sabo or warrior are now super pissed, and out for revenge on those who stuck with a certain class that now is enjoying one "no skill required" pvp class.
Also i would like to point out that, at least on my server, 99% of players at 50 only care about warfronts and nothing else, maing raiding a rare possiblility. Basically those who did stay past the first month, did so reluctantly, and are just waiting for another game (whichever one it is) to come out.
This game has lost a good amount of steam, and the remaining crowd left seems to be waiting on a major upcomming release. Its a good game if your into what wow did, either by not playing wow, or being obessed with that games specific mechanics. Its not a bad game, but unless some serious content comes out, both for pvp and pve, its only going to get more stale for those who are still playing.
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Even if they were somehow able to balance MMO PvP perfectly, people would still complain that any class they lost to or had better gear than them is OP. It just isn't worth worrying about.
It's truly amazing how few people actually understand what the changes mean for rogues, and why they're a big deal. Everyone thinks all that happened is "sab spike damage got balanced" and "bards can't heal as many people in a raid any more".
1. The changes to Sab completely changes how the soul works in PvE, in addition to nerfing sustained damae to be maybe 75% of what any other calling can do. This is still one of the best rogue DPS specs (if not the best). That's how bad the other rogue DPS souls are. SIX souls dedicated to DPS (more than any other calling) and rogues are dead last in DPS, and not by a small margin.
2. Bards were already less useful than chloromancers for various reasons. The changes didn't open another slot for Bards in raids. They opened another slot for a chloro mage or a healing cleric. The reasons to bring bards along on a raid at all right now are very few. First, they offer a 5% stat buff that no other calling has. You need exactly one bard for that. They also offer a 20% run speed in combat buff that no other calling has. The same bard can do that as well, if you actually need it. Second, it's good to have at least one leather-wearer in your raid so the leather drops don't all go to waste. Other than that there is literally no reason to bring a bard to a raid at all. Everything else they do, a chloro or cleric can do better.
No one's going to waste DPS slots on a rogue in a raid if they have a better option, unless they basically have the boss on farm status.
And no one needs rogues to tank, because Warriors have a much easier time getting gear, more different tank specs, and are a dime a dozen.
That's where rogues are right now - basically down to one slot in a raid.
The worst of it is once the general public figures this out, it's going to take a long time and some truly overpowered buffs to make the perception that "rogues suck" go away again. During that time it's going to be nigh impossible for a rogue to get a group in end-game PvE.
Take the Magic: The Gathering 'What Color Are You?' Quiz.
I play both Bard and Sab builds your 'reasons' for rogue being nerfed are clearly because you think slapping a handful a points in both means your intiled to the 'best' the soul has to offer - much like the Ranger soul if you don't invert to the soul you wont get as much our of it as you would.
Bard healing for me has gone UP due to the bard the background numbers behind the class has changed - sure I can't 'raid heal' has much but the 31 point talent has saved my raid group from wiping some many times that to the mass spam of the 5 point powered heal,
added to the fact you picked ONE Anthum out of both that and the Fanfairs as 'the only useful one bards are needed for' means clearly you havn't understood how useful stacking them between bards is or you much lower level then you seems to make out and havn't used most of your skills to full effect - oh and Chloros got hit as much as Bards did but they havn't replaced us nor we have for them.
I don't know how your playing your Bard but it does seem to me that you havn't used your bard to full effect past the 'dps = heal' machinic of the class
Bring on the WARRRRGGHH!
Im not sure but I dont see the Nerf with my toons at all. I mean I believe they are trying to create equity in the playing. Some toons are over powered while others arent. Balance is key to these games.
Its easily one of the most unbalenced games right now I have ever played. Clerics healing is superior, pyromancer mages are gods of pvp with their CC immunity, 30% chance on regular cast to stun, damage shields, kiting abilities, and Ground of Strength damage reduction. Warriors are decent, although its very hard for them to get into range, and Rogues are useless in both PvP and PvE.
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All the other buffs bard has to offer can be replaced by another class that's a lot more useful and wanted for PvE. In a 20-man raid, your buffs are going to be covered whether or not you have a bard. Sure, Bard can improve the buffs to be a bit stronger. In the grand scheme of things, that extra 12 to whatever stats isn't going to make that much difference. Or in the case of Anthems, another 30%. So you get 13% reduction to ability costs instead of 10%. Whoop de friggin do. No one's going to take a Bard instead of a Chloro because of that. Likewise for any of the other 'better' buffs Bard can do. And that is still not touching on the fact that the only thing Bard has to offer besides heals is Buffs. Unfortunately for Bards, when it comes right down to it, utility abilities will always take precedence over buffs. You can always do the content without extra strength and dexterity. You can always do it without extra int and wisdom. You can always do it without a little extra armor. But you CAN'T do it without cleanses. And a battle rez is infinitely more valuable than any buffs Bard has to offer. And that's still ignoring the fact that a Chloro mage also has heals that are better than a Bard's in virtually every way possible.
If you want to make Bard competitive and desirable for PvE, here are a few things that are probably necessary:
-Longer range. Twenty meters is not enough. End of story.
-Bigger heals. Verse of Vitality Should probably be about doubled. Considering it's on a 1min CD it should have a real impact. It's barely noticable. Bard heals in general need to be buffed, probably 10-25% percent, or whatever is needed to bring it more in line with what a Chloro can do.
-Added utility of some sort. Some kind of cleanse and some kind of rez. I could see a group cleanse that hits up to 5 people (one per combo point) and removes one debuff. Also, every other calling has a rez. Why the heck are rogues left out in the cold?
Also, I play the heck out of my Bard, whenever I get the chance. Which is rare, because most people make the smart choice and go with the more useful Chloro/Necro mage instead.
The mistake you're making is that you're just looking at your Bard spec, and that makes you think you have all kinds of useful, needed buffs to offer. To really see how useful Bard is, you have to look at the big picture, like a smart raid leader will. And when you're doing progression PvE you pick the classes and specs that give you the best chance of success. This is why in their current state, rogues will get left out.
Please note that I am not trying to imply in any way that other support classes (including Chloro) should be nerfed. I'm saying Bard in particular and rogue souls in general need to be buffed, pretty much across the board, except perhaps Saboteur. Sab really is fine right now. The way Sab is designed it should never have been the best Rogue DPS spec. It is intended for high spike damage and high AOE damage. Other rogue souls like Marksman, Nightblade, and Bladedancer should be the ones that are competetive in sustained damage compared to other callings.
Take the Magic: The Gathering 'What Color Are You?' Quiz.
This!
Nomatter what devs do in any game there will always be complainers who quit if its not going there way.
Games played:AC1-Darktide'99-2000-AC2-Darktide/dawnsong2003-2005,Lineage2-2005-2006 and now Darkfall-2009.....
In between WoW few months AoC few months and some f2p also all very short few weeks.
Nerfs are apart of all MMO's adapt or go play a fps or rts. Not being mean just stating the facts.
The following statement is false
The previous statement is true
For some of us, the freedom of the Ascended Soul system was what tipped us in favor of the game. Since Head Start, most "balance" nerfs have actually been designed not to tune, but to kill, any builds that allow a player to play their Calling in a way that doesn't neatly fit into the tiny, predefined box of what Fantasy RPGs expect for Warriors, Rogues, Clerics and Mages.
There are over powered builds that fit the straight and narrow. These are pretty much untouched and in some cases have been buffed.
It's always a concern when the rare title launches that offers broad freedom in designing your own class. Will they stick to the concept, even though it's difficult to balance so many options? Or will they just say "hell with it" and dumb down the game so it's easier to manage.
Basically, Trion caved in record setting time. It's almost like the SWG NGE, but the process of conversion started right after they started selling boxes.
That's why a lot of people are leaving over it. It's not just the typical "nerf everything in sight, even if the nerfs cut our player base in half with in three months" sort of "balancing" we see from most MMORPGs. They are actually deliberately killing the core concept of the game's character design.
They went from promising that Rogue Tanks, Healing Mages, DPS Clerics and Ranged Warriors would be just as viable as builds that are more traditionally attributed to other roles, to just getting rid of the concept all together. (There are signs already that the next step will be to cut way down on the number of viable builds, reguardless of traditional class roles, just so they have a narrower focus when trying to balance what's left).
So, that's the main issue.
I don't know if it was a "bait and switch", or if they just found they weren't up to the task of balancing the system and paniced. Either way, disappointing.
Want to know more about GW2 and why there is so much buzz? Start here: Guild Wars 2 Mass Info for the Uninitiated
He's just frustrated that warriors were toned down to the level of the other callings. It's the same story in any MMO that balances content. Most of the time those affected can't or don't want to see the bigger picture and claim murder and the end of all things <insert game here>. The reality is that the latest patch, at least for now, promoted a much bigger diversity in all callings except for mages. Once a specific mage soul is toned down and some rogue souls are improved, things will look even better.
PvP is definitely more enjoyable after the latest patch.
I still feel the freedom in arranging my roles and souls. I never look at what is OP, I look at what fits to my playstyle and in this game I am able to finetune my char exactly to the way that I want to play. I love it and I see no big difference since patch 1.1
Thats what I like about Trion , why they want players to make a choice instead of keeping them on , and hoping it wouldn´t be true .
Look players are players , in the end most quit after a launch , it seems like MMO launches are lately nothing but a hype rush.
Join it play it and quit , waiting for the next .
It is cause they announced the nerf ahead , it sets them apart from other commercial enterprises .
thus the damage is less afterwards , people were informed and it was discussed .
Instead of just stealth nerfing that is so common lately .
Wait, what? A newly released game needs massive balance adjustments once the devs start crunching numbers from live servers?
Say it isn't so!
Shocked, I am shocked at this news! Why can't developers just perfectly balance tens of thousands of inter-related functions perfectly on the first try? How can a team of a few dozen designers not find every flaw, bug, exploit, and unbalanced feature faster than a million subscribers can?
I should say I'm outraged! Why, if my class combo was ridiculously overpowered to the point where it was the clear "best", despite there being many other combos, I can't imagine any reason why this should change! I mean, there has to be a "best", right? What would be the POINT if there wasn't an "I win!" button in the game? How would people know what to play if they couldn't just find "the best" class/build/combo and play that?
OK, taking off the sarcasm cap for a moment -- seriously, did any sane, intelligent, aware, person NOT expect this? Post-release patches and balance adjustments are both inevitable and necessary, and getting "outraged" at them is like getting "outraged" when your cat pukes on your shoes. It's part of the nature of the beast. I'd expect it in any MMO I play, and if it doesn't happen, it's probably a sign the developers don't give a shit and the game is doomed. Constant tweaks, fixes, and adjustments are the sign of an active, living, game -- stagnation is a sign the only job the developers have any more is swapping out the hamsters in the server room.
This is especially true in a game like Rift, which places such a high value on the diversity of classes (souls). If any soul is too powerful, or any combo of souls is too powerful, it completely undermines the concept of "build your own class" by mixing and matching souls. Thus, souls are going to be rigorously rebalanced to make sure no combination is too good or a "must have" for any given role.
To anyone who says "Well, why don't they just buff the others, then?" -- First, you're a moron. Second, because it's a lot easier to lower one than to raise 32, and that path just leads to everything being "buffed" to the point where numbers inflate to meaninglessness... those rats you kill at level one will have a million hit points because you're dealing 300,000 hit points per attack. (Since I grew up in an era when your 1st level magic-user had 1-4 hit points and could easily be disemboweled by a housecat, I find even classic EQs hit point numbers to be ridiculous, but that's just me.)
70 monk eq1
80 bruiser eq2
43 druid wow
Currently playing : rift
expecting everything to be balanced in a MMORPG as large as complex as the ones out now to be perfect is as about as stupid and futile as expecting the sun to rise in the west and set in the east. No matter what the Dev's do someone will always gripe and complain that any and all classes(or soul combinations for rift) are more powerful than what they play and demand for nerfs. if you dont like that fact dont play MMO's stick to offline games so we dont have to hear you gripe and complain.
"Possibly we humans can exist without actually having to fight. But many of us have chosen to fight. For what reason? To protect something? Protect what? Ourselves? The future? If we kill people to protect ourselves and this future, then what sort of future is it, and what will we have become? There is no future for those who have died. And what of those who did the killing? Is happiness to be found in a future that is grasped with blood stained hands? Is that the truth?"
by your logic then it served no purpose to balance the first time around.This was present as news of happening in rift and there no denying it happened.
i have posted both the positive and negative of what is current issues and happening in rift and all mo i played if you can be bothered to go thru 7 yrs+ i been on this site.
1.1 Patch was a joke. The changes they made were simply knee jerk reactions from people crying in the lower level bracket, and completely ignoring the balance issues at 50 i.e. they went way overboard with the Sab nerf, but buffed mages, who at 50 (pyro) were already doing much more damage than Sab's, whilst being immune to CC and having far greater survivability.
But what do expect, when they have the warhammer *cough bightwizard* dev in charge of balance.
Given the diversity of roles in the warfronts, I'd say that the patch was a massive success in comparison to the past. Now they only need to adjust one soul from mage tree and raise some of the rogue ones perhaps.
As for the mages, prior to the patch there were only of the pyro variety (and a few chloro healers). That hasn't changed much after the patch, so adjustments are necessary.
its a typo it should read "i know for a fact that WHAT you are crying for is impossible." Balance in a virtual world is damn near impossible. Say the Dev's go through and make all PvE damage scale starting at 10.5% then increase every 20 levels and PvP damage scale starting at 5.25% then increase every 40 levels. what would keep players from saying that because the mage is OP in PvE that means the Mage would be OP in PvP? nothing becuase they assume that because a mage non crit at lvl 50 is 10k in PvE that would mean that same mage can do 10k non crit in PvP. its an endless cycle the devs do a tweak one way only to be whined at that the fix makes 1 class type OP. its the same in PvE only a little different. In PvE players always whine the mobs are too hard they need better equipment. then the players will whine the mobs are too easy and they increase the level of difficulty of the mobs. its a endless cycle of tweaks nerfs and addidtions that will cause game play to become stagnant because the devs would have no time to do some real additions to the game. If you want to see what happens to a few games that the devs have been lax on adding new content to take a look at RF Online Vindictus and Allods Online.
"Possibly we humans can exist without actually having to fight. But many of us have chosen to fight. For what reason? To protect something? Protect what? Ourselves? The future? If we kill people to protect ourselves and this future, then what sort of future is it, and what will we have become? There is no future for those who have died. And what of those who did the killing? Is happiness to be found in a future that is grasped with blood stained hands? Is that the truth?"
It's not impossible. People do it on a regular basis for things that are far more complex. The reason why it seems to be impossible is because the people responsible for balancing the game are not necessarily the most quantitatively oriented.
It's a flaw in the industry at the moment, since traditionally people with backgrounds in the arts are being asked to do things that they haven't been trained to do i.e. numerical optimization. You can see a great example in WoW's own community, when a proper subset is much more aware of the game than Blizzard itself. A great example would be WoW's devs need for more "data", when the people at Elitist Jerks use simulators and other techniques to actually achieve global optima.
The biggest reason why the necessary people aren't being used for the job is simply the cost; hiring a person with a degree in a science is much more costly than paying some guy with game design experience. People with great quantitative backgrounds like engineers and mathematicians are used for graphics engines, but they are still left out of the loop when it comes to game design, particularly in MMO's. For that very reason you often seem to see absolutely no convergence when it comes to balance (whether it be PvE, or PvP) and things are sadly not fixed until the community has to do the calculations itself.
It is MUCH cheaper to leave things unbalanced and not pay the man hours necessary to achieve it perfectly, or let the community put in the necessary work as a sort of side game (there are people who like to do those kinds of things and have ready access to the software).
Until the industry changes at a fundamental level, you will continue to see this complete lack of convergence when it comes to game balance.
Because its fun? I see plenty of flaws with rift but I find it fun. It may not be a fun that lasts a long time as its all been done before (I played WAR. Rifts are a better version of PQ's) but I still find it fun. I found WoW fun for a long time to but its grown stale and the quality has dropped significantly imo. I found EvE fun for a couple years till it became stale.
That said my main in rift is also a warrior. Was a reaver. Did the nerfs piss me off? Eh yea but not enough to rage over it like some have. In a themepark MMO its to be expected. If I'm still playing a year down the road reavers will be topdawg again and I will enjoy it all the more. If I'm not oh well.
Whats funny is I am workin on a mage now. Because of this some simply assume I am doing it because they are the new FOTM. Odly enough I dont participate in rifts PvP (because of all the CC and imbalance) nor am I useing the OP as hell soul(s). Some people just cant/wont play what they find fun because its not the FOTM or OP. Personally Trion can do all the nerfing/buffing they want. I'll play what I find fun regardless of its concidered state. That being OP or UP of course.
1.1 was a pvp fix, more or less. Good warriors still stomp people, just with less one shotting duing CC locks. Riftblade warriors wont be able to run around spamming a 500+dmg ranged skill with no cooldown and instant cast as well.
Rogues got really the only real PVE nerf, with sabo's being brought down to mid-pack DPS like all the other range DPS classes (including marksman, another rogue range DPS class)
Other than that, the pyromancer pvp has gatherd more attention than it use to, for what it was. Its basically the same mage pvp glass connon class it was before, however, given the mage communities outcries (they were mostly for pve btw) the remaining rift community who endured nerfs is focusing their energies on getting that mage soul nerfed. I will say (i am a mage) that pvp pyro was terribly boring. You sat in Ground of Strength, one of two tine ground effect buffs you must stand in to gain its benefit. Being inside GOS makes you immune to CC, something a class that is one shot by anyone almost needs given the amount of CC in this game (most pyros have about 3.8k-4k HP, as a pryo fire soul point skill removes HP for fire dmg). However it doesnt stop there with GOS, you get 30% damage reduction in it, ok now were 4 shot...but wait, theres more...you also stand to place a 2sec stun when attacking from this effect. It use to stun lock, not it only kind of stun locks. Add this all to a small damage increase, and well, Rift community that isnt mages want this class nerfed...bad, more as a revenge nerf tbh, but its still a terribly unfun, low skill required pvp soul, as are most the FOTM per class.
So in short, anger over the needlessly strong classes that were pvp nerfed is now being focused on the pyromancer, since its deemed OP. In PVE the warrior is king of DPS in greenscale (using wonderful 2 button macro mashing to achive best in game dps), followed by rogue melee, tailed up by all range DPS classes. PVP is still as boring and "either you stomp the other team or get stomped" mechanics, with a super rare "decent" fight. Diffrence is, the 70% of the community that rolled a FOTM sabo or warrior are now super pissed, and out for revenge on those who stuck with a certain class that now is enjoying one "no skill required" pvp class.
Also i would like to point out that, at least on my server, 99% of players at 50 only care about warfronts and nothing else, maing raiding a rare possiblility. Basically those who did stay past the first month, did so reluctantly, and are just waiting for another game (whichever one it is) to come out.
This game has lost a good amount of steam, and the remaining crowd left seems to be waiting on a major upcomming release. Its a good game if your into what wow did, either by not playing wow, or being obessed with that games specific mechanics. Its not a bad game, but unless some serious content comes out, both for pvp and pve, its only going to get more stale for those who are still playing.