I don't like Steam tanks riding alongside medieval paladins. It doesn't fit, in my opinion. That's all it is.
I see your point here, because technology just instantly replaces what was used before it. I mean look at our world I am sure you will never see an example of your metaphorical “Knight and Steam tank”. Oh wait!
That car is hardly the equivalent of the Charr steamtank. That buggy is hardly the equivalent of a medieval paladin.
Great job at understand the metaphor, golfclap
The world isn't black and white. The options aren't full adoption of technology and full rejection of technology. Those carriages aren't that far behind that car. Some people in them will have a measure of engineering technology, even if it isn't the car itself.
The Charr steamtank and medieval guardian are extremely far apart. The guardian has absolutely no mechanical technology at all while the engineer has nothing but technology. Technology is accepted in a gradient. Some use a lot, some only very little. But it's ridicilious in my opinion to have classes that use absolutly no engineering technology at all in any way or form alongside those who're building entire steamtanks ( quite a few levels past that car. )
Oh and those darn Germans using horse cavalry right next to the Tiger tank (arguably one of the best tanks ever built) during World War 2.
Because those horse cavalry were medieval knights in full plate using swords and maces...... You know like the guardian has full plate ad maces?
Oh yes because there is no similarities here after all! It is not like we see the old technology of warfare here with the new technology of warfare, you are right no similarities at all. After all horse Calvary from 1800s fits perfect in with a Tiger tank!
Those horse cavalry use guns, explosives etc.. They use some engineering technology. They have some similairities with that tank. Half the GW2 classes use absolutely no engineering technology at all. None. Nothing. And that's just way too extreme. A gradient is believable it ranges from nearly 100% to nearly 0% but it's never ever completely and never ever nothing. Even today's most advanced tanks use ancient technology ( like wheels... ) and even the most primitive allies ( not enemies ) of any technological culture use some technology ( the easiest and simplest forms of it that don't need much instruction )
Darn pictures and facts of WW2 they screw up all logical theory discussions! Well I guess then let’s take a look at the car and how long it took for it to replace the horse and buggy that we can see in the picture. Since that might give us a realistic view of how long it would take the technology that the Charr created in GW2 to become main stream. In essence how long does it take for a new technology to replace old ideas like a medieval Knight?
Because the first cars totally looked like those Charr tanks and batmobiles do...... No difference at all.
Yeah and that has to do with anything I just said…..NOT! Great job at creating a useless argument that has nothing to do with what I said.
The Charr tanks and cars are quite some ways past a basic clockwork/steam powered vehicle. The first cars still looked quite a lot like buggies, the basic frame was much the same. A ferrari didn't just pop into the middle of all those cars. The change came slowly and steadily. First a small amount of primitive cars. Then a small amount of more advanced cars and a larger amount of the primitive ones etc. In GW2 we see extremely advanced steamtanks and batmobiles right next to medieval knights and sorcerors. There's nothing in between. No middle ground. There aren't any guardians with a little bit of engineering in between, no elementalists and necromancers that use even the tiniest bit of technology. That's the problem. It skips from midieval straight onto steampunk. The warrior and thief are realistic because they show a gradient. There's the warrior with sword and shield on one side but there's also the warrior with a simple gun. The engineer will likely also be able to bridge the gap by keeping a shield and selecting lower-tech utility skills, he can also sit somewhere in between. But for half the classes there's absolutely no middle ground at all. No option to take even a single step towards technology. And that's just not fitting in a world where technology is available.
Well then let’s get right into the heart of the matter! All technology goes through an S-curve where it first gets used by early adopters, usually around this time only about 10% of the population is using the new technology. Once a technology reaches the 10% market level it has gone through all of the obstacles of manufacturing and technical problems, not ever product invented reaches this point. With reaching 10% the masses learn more about the product and it sky rockets from 10% to 90%, in the same amount of time it took the product to go from idea to 10%. So if it took 7 years for the product to reach the level where 10% of its market is using it, then it will take another 7 years for the product to go from 10% to 90%. So now that the basics are out of the way, let’s take a more in depth look at the car.
When 2 cultures are in an alliance and friends with each other ( seeing as Charr and humans will constantly party in-game they're friends as far as I'm concerned ) the other professions would use a little bit of engineering technology. Not a lot, but a little bit. You're saying that there are absolutely no Guardian, Elementalist and Necromancer early adopters in the entire GW2 universe at all whatsoever? Sure, that's logic.....
Oh you mean like the German and Italians during WW2? According to you that means German Technology should have been everywhere in the Italian army! Guess what; it wasn’t in fact the Italian tanks were nowhere close to being as good as the German tanks. So how does that fit into your all alliances should have each other’s technology theory? So why didn’t the Italians or Japanese have a little bit of German tank technology in their tanks?
Italians and germans both have tanks. I don't see any guardians in more primitive tanks do you? Again gradient. The most advanced italian tanks where equal or better then the least advanced german tanks. The most advanced japanese tanks were equal or better then the least advanced german tanks. The most advanced guardian technology is still ages behind the least advanced engineer's technology. The most advanced elementalist technology is still ages behind the least advanced engineer's technology. The most advanced necromancer technology is still ages behind the least advanced engineer's technology.
Elementalist and Necromancer where around in GW1 so no there would not be any early adopters, since the masses would have already accepted them a long time ago. As for the Guardian, yes there is going to be groups that accept the idea quicker than others, hence why the lore developers have said that there is going to be few Charr Guardian NPCs. I suggest you read through this again since you apparently do not understand this is about technology and not a profession. In fact your whole Elementalist, Necromancer, and Guardian speech has nothing to do with what was written, since it was about how technology integrates into society. Is a Guardian a technology? The suit of armor a guardian wears is a technology but a guardian is not a technology. So you’re so right that is logic, since you are making a professioncareer a technology. Great logic there buddy!
I was talking about Elementalists and Necromancers being early engineering adopters. You know fred the elementalist being a really progressive guy so throwing an oil grenade at his enemies before fireballing them for extra effect. Or bob the guardian using a pistol since it's easy to use ( unlike a bow ) and available anyway? Or if that's too much then just some tiny little thing. A minor clockwork device, something at least. Some sign that says that these classes actually know that more advanced technology exists. Some gradient. Some way for that guardian to stand just the tiniest little bit closer on the technological scale to that steam tank so the gap isn't quite as ridiciliously large as it is now.
In 1885 Karl Benz is credited with the invention of the modern automobile with the creation of the first gasoline engine. In 1908 Henry ford introduces the first mass produced car the model T. Then in the early 1910s the number of automobiles owned by consumers surpassed the number of horse and buggies, although the horse and buggies was still used into the 1920s. So with these facts, we can see that it took the car 23 years (1885 to 1908) to reach the 10% mark and to become accepted by the masses. Then over the next 23 years the car would have made the climb from 10% to 90% market penetration, in essence ending the era of the horse and buggy. With the 23 years it took the car to reach 10% it would have been common to see a horse and buggy right next to a car on the streets of the world.
1885 was quite a while after the middle ages you know...... You know that time the guardian is from.....
OH so now every world according to you has to follow the same time line as our world? After all your argument about the Middle Ages and the guardian is only valid if you are saying GW2 has to follow our time line. So is that what you are saying? That no author or designer ever can create a world that does not follow our technology time line!
You're the one bringing a real life timeline into the conversation and comparing GW2 to it, not me. I'm saying that there should be gradient. The most advanced guardian shouldn't be as insanely far away from the least advanced engineer as it is right now. No nation even *poofed* from the middle ages straight into the industrial revolution. There's gradient. There's stuff in between. And no class should be locked into the most extreme part of that gradient. There should be minor technological abilities bridging the gap. Just like every class has a tiny bit of magic in the form of signets and other magical abilities to bridge the magical gap every class should have a tiny bit of technology to bridge that technological gap.
Also if you look at the example I was giving I was talking about technology integrating itself in to society. So your 1885 was quite while after the middle age comment is pointless and has nothing to do with what I wrote. Unless like I said you believe ever author ever should follow the same technology time line as our world this argument has no weight to it.
Yes, it integrates. It doesn't *poof* from one extreme to another. There's stuff in between. There's indians with a single old gun. There's marines with knifes. There are buggies with engines. etc. There's gradient everywhere in a realistic world. Yet the elementalist, necromancer and guardian have absolutely no gradient at all. Nothing technological at all. No gradient. As such I don't find it fitting.
g2g now but I'll edit in some more comments later. Steamtanks that look like from 1950s next to knights from the 1200s that are friends and allies with each other is, imho, not fitting.
Well maybe when you get back you well have something intelligent to say about what I actually wrote! Maybe actually things that have to do with the example and the metaphor I use instead of just comments like they look different!
Meh, I was slightly annoyed and quite sarcastic. Hopefully you're able to atleast understand my position now. I'm not saying everyone has to feel the same way. If you're fine with the way they're doing things then all power to you. But I do believe that me and others who don't feel it's done quite right aren't just being close-minded naysayers. We do have good reasons for feeling this way.
Well now that we have all of these facts on our world, what can it show us about the world of GW2? First off we know from the interviews that the engineer is based off a new technology, since it is just barley spreading to the other races. So I think we can safely assume that it has not reached 10% market volume yet! So then would it be possible, with all the facts we know of our world, that a steam tank and Knight could fit logically into the same world. Well if the technology the Charr is inventing came in a rapid progression from guns to tanks to combat engineers in a few short years, then it would be possible because they would have not reached 10% and started replacing the old technology for the masses. For example if the Charr mines, turrets, and tanks have not reached 10% and been accepted by the masses yet. But let’s say in another 10 years all of these new technologies will reach the 10% level and then skyrocket to 90% over the next 10 years. During that 20 year time period the old technology that the races in GW2 use would be replaced, but during that first 10 years to get to 10% it would be common to see the old and new technology together. In our world that did not occur because the gun, tank, and the other technology where spread across decades. But does that really mean it could not have occurred in GW2 in a short time span, in affect making a Knight and a steam tank common to see. Of course like I said as the new technology advances it would eliminate the Knight and all the old technology, so it will be interesting to see what ANet does with Tryia over the next 100 years.
I think the facts of the technology S-curve and the time line of GW2 makes the steam tank and Knight riding besides each other completely logical. Since we are seeing new technology progressing and changing the world of GW2 in essence we are seeing the WW2 era in a fantasy world (tiger tank and horse calvary). Of course these facts do not need to change anyone’s point of view, anyone that does not like guns and steampunk can still not liking it. But please do not say that your point of view is covered by logic, because from the example I just gave you logic can completely validate GW2.
Not trying to be rude, but maybe reading through what I wrote and understand it would be a good idea before replaying.
As I said, mostly sarcasm and a bit of annoyance was speaking. Hopefully it's clearer now.
EDIT: The point I'm making is not that there should be total technological equality ( which you can disprove by showing there is some inequality, which you did. ) The point I'm making is that there shouldn't total technological inequality either ( which you can disprove by showing that there's only inequality and no equality at all, which you didn't. )
Well gobla you do know that in out world, in 1200s that period was called the Dark Ages, why well its bcz church didn't allow for no scientific research, if you were doing it you were killed right away bcz u were a devil warshiper! Now if we didn't have church back then we would be in space right now and our technology level would be much higher right now!!! Also even today in out world there are people that dont use any kind of technology u have indian tribes in South America, Africa and other parts of the world were people still don't use any technology! So sense charr didn't have the church inquasition to stop them from advencing they made great scientific achivments in 250years! So you see it does make sense that not everyone in GW2 is using technology
Didn't know that, which improves things a lot. Still would like to see actual engineering abilities.
And I'm not acitvely out to bash GW2 or the Engineer. As I've said nearly a dozen times in this thread this is a minor inconsequential issue that I enjoy discussing. Problems arise when people start misinterpreting my complaints of every class should have a little bit of technology as every class should be techno-wizards. You could have mentioned this in the first place instead of going about a tirade on human history how not everyone isn't absolutely equal, which I wasn't contesting anyway.
When I complain about not all professions having access to technology the best way really is to show that all classes do have access to technology instead of trying to prove that it's realistic that not all classes have access to technology. It really works a lot better.
But does knowing your facts seriously mean having to watch every single GW2 video ever released? I mean we're still talking about a game here right? Not the scientific study of Guild Wars 2? We're talking about a single 20 second fragment from a 45 minute video which is just one among thousands of videos.
But I guess I'll start adding disclaimers that I am in fact not all-knowing and my posts shouldn't be interpreted as such....
Anyway, for me that improves things a lot. I can only hope that they add some for of technological abilities equivalent to signets to all the professions to round things out. That would complete the picture.
Well to start off the “know your facts” sarcastic comment was revenge for your sarcastic comments on my post . As for the technology equivalent abilities for all professions, that might be possible since we do not know all of the abilities that are going to be in game. Although to me this is not that big of a deal since not all professioncareers in our world have to do with technology. So to me a few professions in GW2 that did not focus on technology would be fine and in fact make it a more believable world (at least to me).
Plus my tirade was not on “everyone isn’t equal”; it was on the amount of time technology takes to integrate into people’s lives. Get your fact straight, come on man it is only a few post ago.
Well gobla you do know that in out world, in 1200s that period was called the Dark Ages, why well its bcz church didn't allow for no scientific research, if you were doing it you were killed right away bcz u were a devil warshiper! Now if we didn't have church back then we would be in space right now and our technology level would be much higher right now!!! Also even today in out world there are people that dont use any kind of technology u have indian tribes in South America, Africa and other parts of the world were people still don't use any technology! So sense charr didn't have the church inquasition to stop them from advencing they made great scientific achivments in 250years! So you see it does make sense that not everyone in GW2 is using technology
Those indian tribes in South America, Africa and other parts of the world have had nearly no contact at all with the rest of the world. Let alone a fullblown alliance going on.
You really believe that if you took various tribal members and educated them in technology ( engineers ) and then gave them access to basic technological appliances ( trade ) they wouldn't use any of it at all? No simple lighter to light their fires? Nothing?
We are the bunny. Resistance is futile. ''/\/\'''''/\/\''''''/\/\ ( o.o) ( o.o) ( o.o) (")("),,(")("),(")(")
When did I ever mention realism? I hate realism in games. I play games for escapism. I just want the games I play to make sense using at least rudimentary logic. This isn't Earth, this is Tyria. Just because it did or didn't happen on Earth or could or couldn't happen on Earth doesn't mean it will or won't or can or can't happen on Tyria. Making those connections is stupid.
Rudimentary logic is your requirement. Mine are a bit higher. Why is that stupid?
Realism and logic aren't the same thing or even in the same category. Logic just means that things have to make sense and have justifications to make sense. For example, if people are going to be throwing fire from their hands then there has to be an explanation for it that has to make sense.
Realism requires that things be the way that they happened IRL. For example, if people are going to be running around then they would have to stop after a while to rest. If they don't have to stop then its no longer realistic.
Well to start off the “know your facts” sarcastic comment was revenge for your sarcastic comments on my post . As for the technology equivalent abilities for all professions, that might be possible since we do not know all of the abilities that are going to be in game. Although to me this is not that big of a deal since not all professioncareers in our world have to do with technology. So to me a few professions in GW2 that did not focus on technology would be fine and in fact make it a more believable world (at least to me).
Plus my tirade was not on “everyone isn’t equal”; it was on the amount of time technology takes to integrate into people’s lives. Get your fact straight, come on man it is only a few post ago.
Man, we really need to get together and do a slapping contest sometime. Results would be epic.
We are the bunny. Resistance is futile. ''/\/\'''''/\/\''''''/\/\ ( o.o) ( o.o) ( o.o) (")("),,(")("),(")(")
When did I ever mention realism? I hate realism in games. I play games for escapism. I just want the games I play to make sense using at least rudimentary logic. This isn't Earth, this is Tyria. Just because it did or didn't happen on Earth or could or couldn't happen on Earth doesn't mean it will or won't or can or can't happen on Tyria. Making those connections is stupid.
Rudimentary logic is your requirement. Mine are a bit higher. Why is that stupid?
Realism and logic aren't the same thing or even in the same category. Logic just means that things have to make sense and have justifications to make sense. For example, if people are going to be throwing fire from their hands then there has to be an explanation for it that has to make sense.
Realism requires that things be the way that they happened IRL. For example, if people are going to be running around then they would have to stop after a while to rest. If they don't have to stop then its no longer realistic.
Realism and logic are 2 different things. Sorry.
if people are going to be running around then they would have to stop after a while to rest. If they don't have to stop then its no longer realistic.
Weren't you talking about realism there? Not logic? Why are you mixing realism and logic?
things have to make sense and have justifications to make sense.
Like they do in the real world you mean? As in causality? That thing that, together with the laws of nature, constitutes realism?
Realism occurs when things logically follow the laws of nature.
Logic occurs when things follow laws in the same way they do the laws of nature.
Realism and Logic are interwoven, they're two sides of the same coin. All realistic things are logical. All unlogical things are not realistic.
We are the bunny. Resistance is futile. ''/\/\'''''/\/\''''''/\/\ ( o.o) ( o.o) ( o.o) (")("),,(")("),(")(")
Well to start off the “know your facts” sarcastic comment was revenge for your sarcastic comments on my post . As for the technology equivalent abilities for all professions, that might be possible since we do not know all of the abilities that are going to be in game. Although to me this is not that big of a deal since not all professioncareers in our world have to do with technology. So to me a few professions in GW2 that did not focus on technology would be fine and in fact make it a more believable world (at least to me).
Plus my tirade was not on “everyone isn’t equal”; it was on the amount of time technology takes to integrate into people’s lives. Get your fact straight, come on man it is only a few post ago.
Man, we really need to get together and do a slapping contest sometime. Results would be epic.
Sounds good, although right now Sundays are my only free day, so we will have to make plans way ahead of time.
Well gobla you do know that in out world, in 1200s that period was called the Dark Ages, why well its bcz church didn't allow for no scientific research, if you were doing it you were killed right away bcz u were a devil warshiper! Now if we didn't have church back then we would be in space right now and our technology level would be much higher right now!!! Also even today in out world there are people that dont use any kind of technology u have indian tribes in South America, Africa and other parts of the world were people still don't use any technology! So sense charr didn't have the church inquasition to stop them from advencing they made great scientific achivments in 250years! So you see it does make sense that not everyone in GW2 is using technology
Those indian tribes in South America, Africa and other parts of the world have had nearly no contact at all with the rest of the world. Let alone a fullblown alliance going on.
You really believe that if you took various tribal members and educated them in technology ( engineers ) and then gave them access to basic technological appliances ( trade ) they wouldn't use any of it at all? No simple lighter to light their fires? Nothing?
sorry gobla but you are wrong, the contact was established but those tribes don't want anything to do with anyone outside there tribe! Also all over the world you have countries that are better at some things then some other countries, take East for example Japan, South Korea and China are getting much more advance then the western countries technology wise. Im not saying that they are advance in every aspect of the technology but at some fields they are ahead of the west, just to use 1thing as example there internet is much more advance then the wests, i mean here in west we can have 5000 people on 1server while over there the number is much higher! Now in GW2 the charr are much more advance then some races not all sense Asura is pretty advance in technology aswell and they also go with implanting magic into there technology, while charr are still using magic they are much more focused on technology, so probably in the future the charr will abonded all magic and only use technology. Also not all the countries in our world share all of there techology with there alies
Those indian tribes in South America, Africa and other parts of the world have had nearly no contact at all with the rest of the world. Let alone a fullblown alliance going on.
You really believe that if you took various tribal members and educated them in technology ( engineers ) and then gave them access to basic technological appliances ( trade ) they wouldn't use any of it at all? No simple lighter to light their fires? Nothing?
sorry gobla but you are wrong, the contact was established but those tribes don't want anything to do with anyone outside there tribe! Also all over the world you have countries that are better at some things then some other countries, take East for example Japan, South Korea and China are getting much more advance then the western countries technology wise. Im not saying that they are advance in every aspect of the technology but at some fields they are ahead of the west, just to use 1thing as example there internet is much more advance then the wests, i mean here in west we can have 5000 people on 1server while over there the number is much higher! Now in GW2 the charr are much more advance then some races not all sense Asura is pretty advance in technology aswell and they also go with implanting magic into there technology, while charr are still using magic they are much more focused on technology, so probably in the future the charr will abonded all magic and only use technology. Also not all the countries in our world share all of there techology with there alies
That's what's usually meant when people say "nearly no contact". That there has been some contact, which is why the 'nearly' is there. But not a lot of it, which is why the 'no' is there.
As far as GW2 goes the Humans have a bit more then nearly no contact with the Charr. They will be frequently fighting and grouping together to take on the greater threat of the dragons. They won't meet once and then never again.
As far as East and West go I'm not saying they can't be more advanced. Totally fine, no problem. What I'm saying is that in my opinion there should be a gradient. Not all Japanese are extremely advanced, some japanese are less advanced. And not all Europeans are less advanced, some of them are nearly as advanced as the Japanese.
Just like some Guardians should be more advanced, not as advanced as Engineers but not all guardians should have exactly no technological advancement at all. But as it turns out there will be clockwork-themed weapons, which goes along way to ensuring that there will be some Guardians walking around that have more advanced technological items available.
And I doubt the Charr will abandon all magic and only use technology. Things that are that black and white just don't make for believable worlds if you ask me. There should always be shades of grey. A small sect of Charr that still use magic. A minor spell taken up by Charr culture so deeply that it's not even recognised as magic anymore. Maybe a master engineer who's secret to success is the use of an ancient enchantment that gives him an edge. Things like that.
In my opinion believable settings avoid things like all or nothing as much as possible. It's fine if most Charr are technologically minded, but I think that having all Charr be technologically minded just makes for a shallower and less believable setting when compared to one where there's still a minor aspect of magic left in their society. Just a ghost of their past.
We are the bunny. Resistance is futile. ''/\/\'''''/\/\''''''/\/\ ( o.o) ( o.o) ( o.o) (")("),,(")("),(")(")
The Engineer isn't going to be leaving Guild Wars 2 any time soon. There's too much groundwork there - like a clockpunk factory-fortress city, for example. And lots of people love it.
If you don't think that the clockpunk element fits and you need everything to be boring Tru Fantasy stuff (Magic + Medieval Only), then... why not just not play Guild Wars 2 instead of constantly trolling it? @_@
You've been proved wrong many times over gobla, this is just getting kind of sad at this point.
If you don't like it, there are other games. Might I suggest Mortal Online?
The Engineer isn't going to be leaving Guild Wars 2 any time soon. There's too much groundwork there - like a clockpunk factory-fortress city, for example. And lots of people love it.
If you don't think that the clockpunk element fits and you need everything to be boring Tru Fantasy stuff (Magic + Medieval Only), then... why not just not play Guild Wars 2 instead of constantly trolling it? @_@
You've been proved wrong many times over gobla, this is just getting kind of sad at this point.
If you don't like it, there are other games. Might I suggest Mortal Online?
Have you actually read any of my posts?
Originally posted by gobla
Didn't know that, which improves things a lot. Still would like to see actual engineering abilities.
<snip>
Anyway, for me that improves things a lot. I can only hope that they add some for of technological abilities equivalent to signets to all the professions to round things out. That would complete the picture.
Originally posted by gobla
I'm not saying in any way that GW2 has to change. I'm saying I don't like the way Clockpunk is currenlty implemented and gave an example of what changes would fix this. I'm not asking them to actually implement these changes.
What I'm arguing against is people calling my opinion about it wrong. What I'm arguing against is people calling everything ANet isn't doing as old-fashioned, boring and stupid.
Originally posted by gobla
My minor gripe is that in a world where Engineering exists among all races and has existed long enough for steamtanks, cars, turrets and mines to be invented there's no sign of it at all in many of the other professions.
This is just something I enjoy discussing. It's not something to win.
If you don't enjoy discussing it then simply stop doing so. I'm not forcing anyone to reply to me.
Originally posted by gobla
And seriously, I'm not asking you to read or reply to my posts. This is something I enjoy discussing. If it's only annoying you then why exactly are you replying? Why not go discuss something you do enjoy discussing?
Originally posted by gobla
Besides, we're not at an ANet developer meeting here. It's just a forum. Nothing mentioned here is going to change the game. It's all just talk.
I see a lore inconsistancy, I'm discussing it. There's really nothing more to it. I'm not expecting to be suddenly promoted to lead developer of the GW2 team.
Originally posted by gobla
As I said, it's a minor gripe that I enjoy discussing. It won't prevent me from playing the game. I won't lose any sleep over it. I'll likely not spend a lot of my playtime wondering about it.
But just because it's only a minor gripe doesn't the game lore is somehow perfect and it's not worth putting some effort and time into discussing things like this to see if there's any ways that it could, for me, be solved.
And likely there won't even be a perfect game lore. But doesn't prevent me from thinking about how what we have could be improved.
This is just something I enjoy discussing, can't really say I'm all that bothered about it. But it's something that's seen in basically every single MMO so it's interesting to talk about it.
Originally posted by gobla
Again this is, on the larger scale of things, totally unimportant. But I enjoy discussing the interaction between lore and gameplay and I find it interesting to discuss this case where, in my feelings, the lore was just so horribly broken and pinpointing where exactly this break occured and what possible solutions there are.
Originally posted by gobla
Look, this is only a minor gripe. In the large scale of things totally insignificant. But it's one I enjoy discussing.
Originally posted by gobla
Ps. If anyone thinks I'm bashing this thing too much then just ignore me. I enjoy diving into things like this and hearing everyone's arguments about it. It's unlikely I'll radically change my point of view but it'll still enrich my perceptions on these things which is why I go into discussions like these in the first place.
We are the bunny. Resistance is futile. ''/\/\'''''/\/\''''''/\/\ ( o.o) ( o.o) ( o.o) (")("),,(")("),(")(")
Originally posted by darlok6666 For crying out loud...let this thread die already. All whats going on now is 2-3 people bickering back and forth. Okay you don't like the techie stuff, well suck it up because it's implemented. If ANet is gonna make changes it's sure as hell isn't gonna be based off one person on a non fan-affiliated site. People have made their point already on their views of the techie aspect of GW2.
Hi, welcome to the forums. Here we like to discuss things about games. Anything really. None of it actually matters since, you know, they're just random opinions on the internet about random games. But we enjoy discussing things, which is why we come to the forums. As long as there's people discussing things, whether it be bickering or not ( as long as no forum rules are broken ), this thread is doing exactly what it was meant to be doing. A place for people to share their opinions. And it doesn't actually matter what you, or anyone besides the forum staff, thinks of those opinions. If you want the thread to die the best thing really is to not keep it alive by replying. If the thread's bothering you then the best thing really is not to view it in the first place.
Gobla, while I still disagree with you about Tyrian technology, (and I don't think we will be getting any further with that line of thought) I wanted to say this is a hilarious and dead-on explanation of the forums, and the reasons why people who aren't interested in the discussion should just, you know, go do something else. I loved it.
"Gamers will no longer buy the argument that every MMO requires a subscription fee to offset server and bandwidth costs. It's not true you know it, and they know it." Jeff Strain, co-founder of ArenaNet, 2007
When most people think of fantasy fiction they imagine knights and maidens, maybe a dragon or other fantastical creature, possibly wizards and magic. While all or some of these elements may be present, the fantasy genre entails a wide variety of possiblilities. The following are a few sub-genres,
High Fantasy tales often have a serious tone, with events on an epic scale and usually takes place in a psuedo-medieval setting. A common theme in these fantasies is the fight against evil and characters many times have a quest they must complete. Often they include fantastical races or creatures.
Contemporary Fantasy (also called Urban or Modern Fantasy) takes place in the modern world. Travel to alternate worlds may be possible, or the existence of hidden magic.
Dark Fantasy is closely related to and often includes elements of the horror genre. The supernatural, or supernatural creatures, such as vampires, are often a main ingredient. Many times, these are officially labeled either fantasy or horror, depending on which genre they lean more towards.
Historical Fantasy incorporates a fantasy storyline into history or invents a fantasy history that mirrors our own.
Fairytale Fantasy encompasses many diverse works.both modern fairytales and reworking of classic stories. They may be aimed at children, or contain more adult themes and content. Also closely related is Mythic Fantasy, which draws on mythology.
Comic Fantasy fiction satires the conventions of the fantasy genre and sometimes non-genre work.
For crying out loud...let this thread die already. All whats going on now is 2-3 people bickering back and forth. Okay you don't like the techie stuff, well suck it up because it's implemented. If ANet is gonna make changes it's sure as hell isn't gonna be based off one person on a non fan-affiliated site. People have made their point already on their views of the techie aspect of GW2.
Hi, welcome to the forums. Here we like to discuss things about games. Anything really. None of it actually matters since, you know, they're just random opinions on the internet about random games. But we enjoy discussing things, which is why we come to the forums.
As long as there's people discussing things, whether it be bickering or not ( as long as no forum rules are broken ), this thread is doing exactly what it was meant to be doing. A place for people to share their opinions. And it doesn't actually matter what you, or anyone besides the forum staff, thinks of those opinions.
If you want the thread to die the best thing really is to not keep it alive by replying. If the thread's bothering you then the best thing really is not to view it in the first place.
Gobla, while I still disagree with you about Tyrian technology, (and I don't think we will be getting any further with that line of thought) I wanted to say this is a hilarious and dead-on explanation of the forums, and the reasons why people who aren't interested in the discussion should just, you know, go do something else. I loved it.
It's not that, it's just the futility of it, it's like a million monkeys banging their heads against a million walls. It's not going to change anything. Discuss how it can work, that's great, that's constructive, and that fits. But to discuss why it shouldn't be there? To what end? That's whining, it's pointless, it's deconstructive to say the least. The thing is is that it's not going to change, but a lot of the discussion has this strong wind of this should change.
Even in your own post you admit the absolute futility of trying to change something that they've spent years developing, and something that's only unpopular with a tiny but admittedly vocal minority. If this discussion was a back and forth about ideas as to how this could work, then I'd support that, I'd love to see the creativity flowing there. But instead we just have some people being, if I may be frank, massive effing whingebags. That's my problem with it.
It doesn't get us anywhere, it doesn't serve any purpose, and the only thing it can do is perhaps assuage someone's ego by letting them feel that, hey, they're right and ArenaNet is wrong. But are those really the best sorts of discussions? Things like this seem to be more about vanity than ideas. I would love to see people debating over theiir ideas of how Tyrian progression could have happened.
BUT if your ultimate conclusion is that Tyrian history is impossible once it's already happened, then you serve no purpose, you're obsolete, and any discourse you wish to have about how impossible it is degenerates into whining and therefore becomes obsolete. Therefore, this thread too, by proxy, also becomes obsolete. And that's sad, becuase there's a lot of intelligence here, and I think that it could be repurposed towards more interresting and intriguing ends, stuff that would be worth reading instead of just being a waste of space.
This scenario: "The history of Tyria is set in stone, to discuss in this thread, you must accept that and present your own ideas as to how it could've come to pass, and work with the ideas of others, offering criticism and your own ideas to build upon the overall conclusion."
If we'd started off with that scenario and stuck with it, then this thread could've been something incredible. As it is it's just degnerated into whining, whining, and yet more whining. Again, that's a shame, because I think there's worth here, just not as it is. As it stands, trying to fight the inevitable, trying to claim that facts are impossible, is an act of total futility. I just don't, personally, see any point to it unless the person in question is trolling. And if they are trolling then they might be happier with another game - if this one makes them so angry that they feel they must troll in order to prove a developer so, so wrong. And if that's happening, then maybe they should direct their attention toward a game that will make them less angry.
Having people whining, being angry, trolling, and just going around in circles and trying to destroy the lore of a game... just serves no purpose.
(And when it comes down to it, at the end of the day, spending hours every day on a forum trying to prove a developer wrong and trying to destroy the lore of a game over some massive ego-trip is all kinds of sad anyway. I'm sorry, it really is, there are better things that everyone could be doing. I just find this all very worthless.)
It's not that, it's just the futility of it, it's like a million monkeys banging their heads against a million walls. It's not going to change anything. Discuss how it can work, that's great, that's constructive, and that fits. But to discuss why it shouldn't be there? To what end? That's whining, it's pointless, it's deconstructive to say the least. The thing is is that it's not going to change, but a lot of the discussion has this strong wind of this should change.
Fun maybe? You know the same reason we play games? It's fun. On the larger scale of things playing games is totally useless it doesn't add anything to the world except for your own personal enjoyment. It's actually deconstructive to play games, I mean you could be out there feeding orphans and making the world a better place. Yet you spend all your time making pixels on your computer screen change color.
Even in your own post you admit the absolute futility of trying to change something that they've spent years developing, and something that's only unpopular with a tiny but admittedly vocal minority. If this discussion was a back and forth about ideas as to how this could work, then I'd support that, I'd love to see the creativity flowing there. But instead we just have some people being, if I may be frank, massive effing whingebags. That's my problem with it.
I enjoy discussing it. You don't have to discuss it with me. You're completely free to leave this thread alone and go do something else. I promise I won't cry over losing you. A lot.
It doesn't get us anywhere, it doesn't serve any purpose, and the only thing it can do is perhaps assuage someone's ego by letting them feel that, hey, they're right and ArenaNet is wrong. But are those really the best sorts of discussions? Things like this seem to be more about vanity than ideas. I would love to see people debating over theiir ideas of how Tyrian progression could have happened.
There's no right and wrong. It's just a sharing of opinions. We're not at a secret convention deciding the future of the MMO industry whilst smoking big cigars and combining our massive intellects to solve the problems of the world.....
of warcraft. We're also not going bear wrestling or other important manly stuff afterwards. I'm sorry but this is just a forum. This is just a place for random people to post random opinions on random games. That's all it is. I'm sorry if you believed that what you say here is actually important or relevant in any way on the larger scale of things.
BUT if your ultimate conclusion is that Tyrian history is impossible once it's already happened, then you serve no purpose, you're obsolete, and any discourse you wish to have about how impossible it is degenerates into whining and therefore becomes obsolete. Therefore, this thread too, by proxy, also becomes obsolete. And that's sad, becuase there's a lot of intelligence here, and I think that it could be repurposed towards more interresting and intriguing ends, stuff that would be worth reading instead of just being a waste of space.
My ultimate conslusion is that I found it immersion breaking for a world where technology has advanced to the point of steamtanks that there are professions that have absolutely no technology at all. None whatsoever. But it turns out GW2 isn't that world anyway as all professions will have access to clockwork-themed weapons, meaning that even Elementalists will be able to use some technology in the form of a fancy clockwork staff.
And again I'm sorry. I don't know who told you that all posts and threads on this forum would be interresting and intriguing for you personally, but I'm afraid they were mistaken. In fact I'll wager that around 95% of everything written on these forums, if not more, isn't worth reading for you personally and you deem it to be a waste of space. But that's kind of how the Internet works. Lots and lots and lots of random stuff that's interesting only to a few select people and an utter waste of space to most everyone else. Just browse random YouTube videos if you don't believe me.
This scenario: "The history of Tyria is set in stone, to discuss in this thread, you must accept that and present your own ideas as to how it could've come to pass, and work with the ideas of others, offering criticism and your own ideas to build upon the overall conclusion."
Again, I'm sorry you're under the impression we're at some sort of important game design convention where the greatest minds are coming together to smoke cigars, wear suits, get served fine wines by attractive women and solve the problems of MMO gaming. This is just a forum. These are just random opinions of random people on random games.
If we'd started off with that scenario and stuck with it, then this thread could've been something incredible. As it is it's just degnerated into whining, whining, and yet more whining. Again, that's a shame, because I think there's worth here, just not as it is. As it stands, trying to fight the inevitable, trying to claim that facts are impossible, is an act of total futility. I just don't, personally, see any point to it unless the person in question is trolling. And if they are trolling then they might be happier with another game - if this one makes them so angry that they feel they must troll in order to prove a developer so, so wrong. And if that's happening, then maybe they should direct their attention toward a game that will make them less angry.
The point is participating in a discussion you find fun. If you don't find the discussion fun then don't participate. If you do find the discussion fun the please share your opinion. If you'd rather have another discussion about how the history of Tyria could have come to pass then you're totally free to start one. There's this amazing "New Thread" button near the top of the screen that you can use to start a discussion all of your own. All you have to do is think of a short and catchy title for your discussion and write a short post to introduce the topic. Then before you know it random people will be pouring in to post random opinions.
Warning: not all these opinions may agree with you. Not all these opinions may match your standards of being worth reading. Not all these opinions will take the discussion in the way you want it to be taken.
Having people whining, being angry, trolling, and just going around in circles and trying to destroy the lore of a game... just serves no purpose.
I don't think anyone is angry except for possibly you. But this being pure text and all anger is kind of hard to tell. Me and AKASlapHappy are being quite sarcastic as far as I know. Some other posters are getting a bit fired up but most seem perfectly calm.
And again. This is just a random forum on a random webserver where random people post random opinions on random games in random threads. There is no purpose except for the sharing of random opinions. That's what a forum is, a place for random people to share random opinions. That's all it has to do. That's all it likely will do.
(And when it comes down to it, at the end of the day, spending hours every day on a forum trying to prove a developer wrong and trying to destroy the lore of a game over some massive ego-trip is all kinds of sad anyway. I'm sorry, it really is, there are better things that everyone could be doing. I just find this all very worthless.)
That's my opinion, anyway.
Again it's not about right or wrong. It's not about ego. It's not about destroying the lore of a game. It's about sharing your opinions on a subject you think is fun to discuss. If you think this thread is worthless then by all means stop posting and let it die. If you think there are better things you could be doing then by all means, start doing other things.
It's okay if you leave this thread alone. It's okay if this thread isn't actively making MMOs a better place for future generations. It's okay if you believe some posts are a waste of space, we've got lots and lots of space available for all kinds of posts and threads and opinions.
And your opinion is appreciated, thank you for posting it and adding to this discussion. Thank you for fulfilling this forum's purpose, the sharing of opinions. I hope you'll share your opinion again some other time.
We are the bunny. Resistance is futile. ''/\/\'''''/\/\''''''/\/\ ( o.o) ( o.o) ( o.o) (")("),,(")("),(")(")
Engineer is not a class I would personally play but I do think it is a very cool addition to the Guild Wars 2 professions! I remember back when Guild Wars 1 first got released and a lot of people were shouting for a summoner type profession that wasn't the Minion Master. In my opinion the Engineer could have fulfilled that request and then some! Yet, as it stands the Engineer seems to revolve more around grenades, advanced weapons, and turrets. The turrets could be looked at like summons in a way but not having seen them in action I'm still sceptical. I think a lot of people will like the Engineer and my hopes for it were mine alone and based on my desire for SOME type of summoner. As I said not my thing but a welcome addition to the profession roaster!
I may have missed this in the "pages" of comments about this, but everyone keeps ragging on the fact that "THIS DOESN'T FIT WITHIN THE LORE", but it does! Read the books and blogs people, and not just the stuff on this site. Arenanet has done a great job of posting their own indepth blogs about the history and lore, and the progression of. GW2 takes place a couple hundred years after the original, which showcased crude siege weapons, and asuran technology which is so far advanced that it seems like magic. So why isn't a turret "self cranking" machine gun plausible?
We had those things during WW2, among other more advanced technology. Plus think about it, we "in real life" have only had the use of electricity for a couple hundred years, and we're at a point where we have a Google-car that can plot a travel-plan and drive itself across the continent, not to mention "space travel" in the late 60s.
My main point is that people aren't keeping in mind how real technological advancements happen. Once a civilization finds a power source and understands it, it's not long before real technological progress is made.
And in this case, the Char, as a society have denounced religion for the pursuit of science and technology, which would indicate that they have devoted themselves to it so they would naturally have a higher tech progression that normal.
As far as the disgruntled comments regarding the "Commando" April fools being so close to the Engineer, you're probably right. It's probably the reason they were able to make such a massive April fools in-game content joke. They have obviously been working on the engineer for a long time, much longer than the Commando I would imagine. And since they had it mapped out, they figured they could whip up a funny set of content using it's core mechanics as an April fools item so that the community would have something cool to play with. It could have also worked as a testing platform for them to get some feedback from the community without them having to come out and say, "hey, we're going to be rolling out a class that has guns, what do you think?". If that was the case, I think it's pretty brilliant on their part. But the overall community feedback on the Commando was massively positive. So I find it odd that people just went ape-s#!t over the Commando, but now are being so damn negative about the Engineer.
One last thing about how Anet has done right by the lore is that they've evolved the races on all fronts. The charr for example have even undergone social revamp with its own women's rights movement. This mirrors a real-life social issue, mirroring our own women's right movement in the US, that is being played out in a ficticious fantasy setting. Anet has seemingly gone through great lengths to develop the races and cultures in a realistic way but still adhereing to their own lore.
I'm a huge GW fan, and I'm a huge steampunk fan (which is what the charr tech is based off of), and I've been waiting for them to announce the gun class. This has far surpassed my hopes, since you get summons also. My only hope was that they had an asuran branch of the engineer since they are the original techie race and they talk about their "golemancy" in the books alot.
FINAL THOUGHT: Within the timeframe of the current GW2 universe, from a realistic point of view, the technology progression is completely valid. Several hundred years is more than enough time for an intelligent society to develop technologically, as well as make other advancements as a culture. Plus, I'm a huge scifi and fantasy fan, and I find it really hard to believe that people are crying about the inclusion of a few industrial age weapons and vehicles. I mean the GW universe has dragons, plant-people, cat-people, super advanced asuran tech, a ghost realm of ascolon, a thief class that can "teleport", and norns that can turn into animals and elementalists that can control lightening, water and fire (all of which could be used to power a device of tech origin, I wish someone would develop a class where a techie could create a device with no power supply and then power it with elemental magic, that would be cool... and plausible...)
My intention is not to sound pissy or rude, but people really just need to think about what they're saying and cut Anet and GW2 some slack. I mean the game looks amazing, and WILL BE amazing. Just give it some time, wait to read about the NEW things that are happening in the universe. I'm sure they've done their research, after all, they are the ones who wrote the lore to begin with.
Arenanet are trying so very hard to innovate and give a single fingered salute to stale thinking and passionless design. The mmo industry needs something to give it a swift, viscious kick in the nethers-I hope GW2 does just that.
If anyone from Arenanet is reading this, I doff my cap to you.
I've actually predicted a long time ago it'll be engineer since silhouette was of "charr" and charr are most tech advanced. Also in the book there was flame legion with flamethrowers. I was going to play thief or engineer if ever introduced so... .
As to people about tech, imagine tech + magic. Also notice how our own RL tech has changed during last 250 years - a LOT more than that of GW2.
I've actually predicted a long time ago it'll be engineer since silhouette was of "charr" and charr are most tech advanced. Also in the book there was flame legion with flamethrowers. I was going to play thief or engineer if ever introduced so... .
As to people about tech, imagine tech + magic. Also notice how our own RL tech has changed during last 250 years - a LOT more than that of GW2.
Yes i agree with you on this point, except for us in RL it's more we didn't go in the last 250years more like last 100years we went from horses to space! So ANet did a great job improving the technology in GW in the 250years sense original
Wow. I leave for my sister's wedding, come back, and this thread appears and exploded into 25 pages. It's a shame, I would have liked to get in on some of this Engineer arguing action, but there's no way I feel like reading 25 pages worth of stuff.
Comments
Well gobla you do know that in out world, in 1200s that period was called the Dark Ages, why well its bcz church didn't allow for no scientific research, if you were doing it you were killed right away bcz u were a devil warshiper! Now if we didn't have church back then we would be in space right now and our technology level would be much higher right now!!! Also even today in out world there are people that dont use any kind of technology u have indian tribes in South America, Africa and other parts of the world were people still don't use any technology! So sense charr didn't have the church inquasition to stop them from advencing they made great scientific achivments in 250years! So you see it does make sense that not everyone in GW2 is using technology
Well to start off the “know your facts” sarcastic comment was revenge for your sarcastic comments on my post
Plus my tirade was not on “everyone isn’t equal”; it was on the amount of time technology takes to integrate into people’s lives. Get your fact straight, come on man it is only a few post ago.
Those indian tribes in South America, Africa and other parts of the world have had nearly no contact at all with the rest of the world. Let alone a fullblown alliance going on.
You really believe that if you took various tribal members and educated them in technology ( engineers ) and then gave them access to basic technological appliances ( trade ) they wouldn't use any of it at all? No simple lighter to light their fires? Nothing?
We are the bunny.
Resistance is futile.
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Realism and logic aren't the same thing or even in the same category. Logic just means that things have to make sense and have justifications to make sense. For example, if people are going to be throwing fire from their hands then there has to be an explanation for it that has to make sense.
Realism requires that things be the way that they happened IRL. For example, if people are going to be running around then they would have to stop after a while to rest. If they don't have to stop then its no longer realistic.
Realism and logic are 2 different things. Sorry.
Man, we really need to get together and do a slapping contest sometime. Results would be epic.
We are the bunny.
Resistance is futile.
''/\/\'''''/\/\''''''/\/\
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(")("),,(")("),(")(")
if people are going to be running around then they would have to stop after a while to rest. If they don't have to stop then its no longer realistic.
Weren't you talking about realism there? Not logic? Why are you mixing realism and logic?
things have to make sense and have justifications to make sense.
Like they do in the real world you mean? As in causality? That thing that, together with the laws of nature, constitutes realism?
Realism occurs when things logically follow the laws of nature.
Logic occurs when things follow laws in the same way they do the laws of nature.
Realism and Logic are interwoven, they're two sides of the same coin. All realistic things are logical. All unlogical things are not realistic.
We are the bunny.
Resistance is futile.
''/\/\'''''/\/\''''''/\/\
( o.o) ( o.o) ( o.o)
(")("),,(")("),(")(")
Sounds good, although right now Sundays are my only free day, so we will have to make plans way ahead of time.
sorry gobla but you are wrong, the contact was established but those tribes don't want anything to do with anyone outside there tribe! Also all over the world you have countries that are better at some things then some other countries, take East for example Japan, South Korea and China are getting much more advance then the western countries technology wise. Im not saying that they are advance in every aspect of the technology but at some fields they are ahead of the west, just to use 1thing as example there internet is much more advance then the wests, i mean here in west we can have 5000 people on 1server while over there the number is much higher! Now in GW2 the charr are much more advance then some races not all sense Asura is pretty advance in technology aswell and they also go with implanting magic into there technology, while charr are still using magic they are much more focused on technology, so probably in the future the charr will abonded all magic and only use technology. Also not all the countries in our world share all of there techology with there alies
That's what's usually meant when people say "nearly no contact". That there has been some contact, which is why the 'nearly' is there. But not a lot of it, which is why the 'no' is there.
As far as GW2 goes the Humans have a bit more then nearly no contact with the Charr. They will be frequently fighting and grouping together to take on the greater threat of the dragons. They won't meet once and then never again.
As far as East and West go I'm not saying they can't be more advanced. Totally fine, no problem. What I'm saying is that in my opinion there should be a gradient. Not all Japanese are extremely advanced, some japanese are less advanced. And not all Europeans are less advanced, some of them are nearly as advanced as the Japanese.
Just like some Guardians should be more advanced, not as advanced as Engineers but not all guardians should have exactly no technological advancement at all. But as it turns out there will be clockwork-themed weapons, which goes along way to ensuring that there will be some Guardians walking around that have more advanced technological items available.
And I doubt the Charr will abandon all magic and only use technology. Things that are that black and white just don't make for believable worlds if you ask me. There should always be shades of grey. A small sect of Charr that still use magic. A minor spell taken up by Charr culture so deeply that it's not even recognised as magic anymore. Maybe a master engineer who's secret to success is the use of an ancient enchantment that gives him an edge. Things like that.
In my opinion believable settings avoid things like all or nothing as much as possible. It's fine if most Charr are technologically minded, but I think that having all Charr be technologically minded just makes for a shallower and less believable setting when compared to one where there's still a minor aspect of magic left in their society. Just a ghost of their past.
We are the bunny.
Resistance is futile.
''/\/\'''''/\/\''''''/\/\
( o.o) ( o.o) ( o.o)
(")("),,(")("),(")(")
The Engineer isn't going to be leaving Guild Wars 2 any time soon. There's too much groundwork there - like a clockpunk factory-fortress city, for example. And lots of people love it.
If you don't think that the clockpunk element fits and you need everything to be boring Tru Fantasy stuff (Magic + Medieval Only), then... why not just not play Guild Wars 2 instead of constantly trolling it? @_@
You've been proved wrong many times over gobla, this is just getting kind of sad at this point.
If you don't like it, there are other games. Might I suggest Mortal Online?
The only thing I can think to say is that I WILL BE TARGETING the Engineer first!
going down.
Have you actually read any of my posts?
We are the bunny.
Resistance is futile.
''/\/\'''''/\/\''''''/\/\
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Gobla, while I still disagree with you about Tyrian technology, (and I don't think we will be getting any further with that line of thought) I wanted to say this is a hilarious and dead-on explanation of the forums, and the reasons why people who aren't interested in the discussion should just, you know, go do something else. I loved it.
"Gamers will no longer buy the argument that every MMO requires a subscription fee to offset server and bandwidth costs. It's not true you know it, and they know it." Jeff Strain, co-founder of ArenaNet, 2007
WTF? No subscription fee?
Types of Fantasy Fiction
When most people think of fantasy fiction they imagine knights and maidens, maybe a dragon or other fantastical creature, possibly wizards and magic. While all or some of these elements may be present, the fantasy genre entails a wide variety of possiblilities. The following are a few sub-genres,
High Fantasy tales often have a serious tone, with events on an epic scale and usually takes place in a psuedo-medieval setting. A common theme in these fantasies is the fight against evil and characters many times have a quest they must complete. Often they include fantastical races or creatures.
Contemporary Fantasy (also called Urban or Modern Fantasy) takes place in the modern world. Travel to alternate worlds may be possible, or the existence of hidden magic.
Dark Fantasy is closely related to and often includes elements of the horror genre. The supernatural, or supernatural creatures, such as vampires, are often a main ingredient. Many times, these are officially labeled either fantasy or horror, depending on which genre they lean more towards.
Historical Fantasy incorporates a fantasy storyline into history or invents a fantasy history that mirrors our own.
Fairytale Fantasy encompasses many diverse works.both modern fairytales and reworking of classic stories. They may be aimed at children, or contain more adult themes and content. Also closely related is Mythic Fantasy, which draws on mythology.
Comic Fantasy fiction satires the conventions of the fantasy genre and sometimes non-genre work.
It's not that, it's just the futility of it, it's like a million monkeys banging their heads against a million walls. It's not going to change anything. Discuss how it can work, that's great, that's constructive, and that fits. But to discuss why it shouldn't be there? To what end? That's whining, it's pointless, it's deconstructive to say the least. The thing is is that it's not going to change, but a lot of the discussion has this strong wind of this should change.
Even in your own post you admit the absolute futility of trying to change something that they've spent years developing, and something that's only unpopular with a tiny but admittedly vocal minority. If this discussion was a back and forth about ideas as to how this could work, then I'd support that, I'd love to see the creativity flowing there. But instead we just have some people being, if I may be frank, massive effing whingebags. That's my problem with it.
It doesn't get us anywhere, it doesn't serve any purpose, and the only thing it can do is perhaps assuage someone's ego by letting them feel that, hey, they're right and ArenaNet is wrong. But are those really the best sorts of discussions? Things like this seem to be more about vanity than ideas. I would love to see people debating over theiir ideas of how Tyrian progression could have happened.
BUT if your ultimate conclusion is that Tyrian history is impossible once it's already happened, then you serve no purpose, you're obsolete, and any discourse you wish to have about how impossible it is degenerates into whining and therefore becomes obsolete. Therefore, this thread too, by proxy, also becomes obsolete. And that's sad, becuase there's a lot of intelligence here, and I think that it could be repurposed towards more interresting and intriguing ends, stuff that would be worth reading instead of just being a waste of space.
This scenario: "The history of Tyria is set in stone, to discuss in this thread, you must accept that and present your own ideas as to how it could've come to pass, and work with the ideas of others, offering criticism and your own ideas to build upon the overall conclusion."
If we'd started off with that scenario and stuck with it, then this thread could've been something incredible. As it is it's just degnerated into whining, whining, and yet more whining. Again, that's a shame, because I think there's worth here, just not as it is. As it stands, trying to fight the inevitable, trying to claim that facts are impossible, is an act of total futility. I just don't, personally, see any point to it unless the person in question is trolling. And if they are trolling then they might be happier with another game - if this one makes them so angry that they feel they must troll in order to prove a developer so, so wrong. And if that's happening, then maybe they should direct their attention toward a game that will make them less angry.
Having people whining, being angry, trolling, and just going around in circles and trying to destroy the lore of a game... just serves no purpose.
(And when it comes down to it, at the end of the day, spending hours every day on a forum trying to prove a developer wrong and trying to destroy the lore of a game over some massive ego-trip is all kinds of sad anyway. I'm sorry, it really is, there are better things that everyone could be doing. I just find this all very worthless.)
That's my opinion, anyway.
We are the bunny.
Resistance is futile.
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( o.o) ( o.o) ( o.o)
(")("),,(")("),(")(")
Personally I did not find it appealing but for sure its going to appreciated by others and it will only add variety in GW2
heh
at first glance, the engineer does not appeal to me but I like variety so will be trying all classes
(and probably buying extra character slots)
EQ2 fan sites
I may have missed this in the "pages" of comments about this, but everyone keeps ragging on the fact that "THIS DOESN'T FIT WITHIN THE LORE", but it does! Read the books and blogs people, and not just the stuff on this site. Arenanet has done a great job of posting their own indepth blogs about the history and lore, and the progression of. GW2 takes place a couple hundred years after the original, which showcased crude siege weapons, and asuran technology which is so far advanced that it seems like magic. So why isn't a turret "self cranking" machine gun plausible?
We had those things during WW2, among other more advanced technology. Plus think about it, we "in real life" have only had the use of electricity for a couple hundred years, and we're at a point where we have a Google-car that can plot a travel-plan and drive itself across the continent, not to mention "space travel" in the late 60s.
My main point is that people aren't keeping in mind how real technological advancements happen. Once a civilization finds a power source and understands it, it's not long before real technological progress is made.
And in this case, the Char, as a society have denounced religion for the pursuit of science and technology, which would indicate that they have devoted themselves to it so they would naturally have a higher tech progression that normal.
As far as the disgruntled comments regarding the "Commando" April fools being so close to the Engineer, you're probably right. It's probably the reason they were able to make such a massive April fools in-game content joke. They have obviously been working on the engineer for a long time, much longer than the Commando I would imagine. And since they had it mapped out, they figured they could whip up a funny set of content using it's core mechanics as an April fools item so that the community would have something cool to play with. It could have also worked as a testing platform for them to get some feedback from the community without them having to come out and say, "hey, we're going to be rolling out a class that has guns, what do you think?". If that was the case, I think it's pretty brilliant on their part. But the overall community feedback on the Commando was massively positive. So I find it odd that people just went ape-s#!t over the Commando, but now are being so damn negative about the Engineer.
One last thing about how Anet has done right by the lore is that they've evolved the races on all fronts. The charr for example have even undergone social revamp with its own women's rights movement. This mirrors a real-life social issue, mirroring our own women's right movement in the US, that is being played out in a ficticious fantasy setting. Anet has seemingly gone through great lengths to develop the races and cultures in a realistic way but still adhereing to their own lore.
I'm a huge GW fan, and I'm a huge steampunk fan (which is what the charr tech is based off of), and I've been waiting for them to announce the gun class. This has far surpassed my hopes, since you get summons also. My only hope was that they had an asuran branch of the engineer since they are the original techie race and they talk about their "golemancy" in the books alot.
FINAL THOUGHT: Within the timeframe of the current GW2 universe, from a realistic point of view, the technology progression is completely valid. Several hundred years is more than enough time for an intelligent society to develop technologically, as well as make other advancements as a culture. Plus, I'm a huge scifi and fantasy fan, and I find it really hard to believe that people are crying about the inclusion of a few industrial age weapons and vehicles. I mean the GW universe has dragons, plant-people, cat-people, super advanced asuran tech, a ghost realm of ascolon, a thief class that can "teleport", and norns that can turn into animals and elementalists that can control lightening, water and fire (all of which could be used to power a device of tech origin, I wish someone would develop a class where a techie could create a device with no power supply and then power it with elemental magic, that would be cool... and plausible...)
My intention is not to sound pissy or rude, but people really just need to think about what they're saying and cut Anet and GW2 some slack. I mean the game looks amazing, and WILL BE amazing. Just give it some time, wait to read about the NEW things that are happening in the universe. I'm sure they've done their research, after all, they are the ones who wrote the lore to begin with.
I voted love it. Dare to be different!
Arenanet are trying so very hard to innovate and give a single fingered salute to stale thinking and passionless design. The mmo industry needs something to give it a swift, viscious kick in the nethers-I hope GW2 does just that.
If anyone from Arenanet is reading this, I doff my cap to you.
"I love it"
I've actually predicted a long time ago it'll be engineer since silhouette was of "charr" and charr are most tech advanced. Also in the book there was flame legion with flamethrowers. I was going to play thief or engineer if ever introduced so... .
As to people about tech, imagine tech + magic. Also notice how our own RL tech has changed during last 250 years - a LOT more than that of GW2.
Not really sure what to make of it...I guess I'll have to wait to try it out and find out.
http://legalbinary.wordpress.com/ - LegalBinary, were the law and mmorpgs, botting, computers and gaming intersect.
Yes i agree with you on this point, except for us in RL it's more we didn't go in the last 250years more like last 100years we went from horses to space! So ANet did a great job improving the technology in GW in the 250years sense original
Wow. I leave for my sister's wedding, come back, and this thread appears and exploded into 25 pages. It's a shame, I would have liked to get in on some of this Engineer arguing action, but there's no way I feel like reading 25 pages worth of stuff.
There goes my chance! :<