There's a simple truth, here: No amount of whining is going to remove the Clockpunk elements of the Engineer from the game. Jeff Grubb, ArenaNet's loremaster, wants them in there. And I really like them, as Clockpunk is something that some of the more advanced and clever fantasy authors have used (such as Neil Gaiman). But some people just want Boring Restrictive Dull Old Medieval Game III, which Guild Wars 2 clearly is not.
Might I humbly suggest to those people that Guild Wars 2 simply isn't for you? You can argue until the cows come home about the Engineer, but it isn't going to change Jeff Grubb's mind. Anyone who's been following the charr tide of advancement knew this was coming, as I did. I'm sure some people will remember me dropping hints about the Engineer a little while before its reveal, but that's because it was exceedingly obvious ot me.
Personally, I think it fits, I think it makes sense, and I think that demanding a world that's got consistent advancement world overis the most... it's... well... /picard ... that's all I can say to that. The Engineer is here to stay, love it or hate it, nothing is going to change it. ArenaNet has balls and they're not going to change it due to some people preferring boring medieval fantasy settings.
Gobla, why does *everyone* have to be using engineering for *some* people to be using engineering. That makes no sense at all. In this world, people do different things. People are different, and they have different preferences. Some people still cannot use a computer properly.
I mean, it's not like everyone can summon wind storms or undead minions. Why should everyone be able to summon turrets? What is your problem with this? It seems perfectly logical to me, and apparently to just about everyone else. What is confusing you so much? None of your posts really make any sense to me. It's like your talking gibberish.
It seems like everyone else things it fits into the lore just fine, is my point.
"Gamers will no longer buy the argument that every MMO requires a subscription fee to offset server and bandwidth costs. It's not true you know it, and they know it." Jeff Strain, co-founder of ArenaNet, 2007
There's a simple truth, here: No amount of whining is going to remove the Clockpunk elements of the Engineer from the game. Jeff Grubb, ArenaNet's loremaster, wants them in there. And I really like them, as Clockpunk is something that some of the more advanced and clever fantasy authors have used (such as Neil Gaiman). But some people just want Boring Restrictive Dull Old Medieval Game III, which Guild Wars 2 clearly is not.
Might I humbly suggest to those people that Guild Wars 2 simply isn't for you? You can argue until the cows come home about the Engineer, but it isn't going to change Jeff Grubb's mind. Anyone who's been following the charr tide of advancement knew this was coming, as I did. I'm sure some people will remember me dropping hints about the Engineer a little while before its reveal, but that's because it was exceedingly obvious ot me.
Personally, I think it fits, I think it makes sense, and I think that demanding a world that's got consistent advancement world overis the most... it's... well... /picard ... that's all I can say to that. The Engineer is here to stay, love it or hate it, nothing is going to change it. ArenaNet has balls and they're not going to change it due to some people preferring boring medieval fantasy settings.
Right, said my piece, there. Felt I had to.
I'm not saying in any way that GW2 has to change. I'm saying I don't like the way Clockpunk is currenlty implemented and gave an example of what changes would fix this. I'm not asking them to actually implement these changes.
What I'm arguing against is people calling my opinion about it wrong. What I'm arguing against is people calling everything ANet isn't doing as old-fashioned, boring and stupid.
Last I checked I didn't have to be a great fan of GW2 in order to comment on it. If I want to critisize GW2 I will, I don't expect them to change it. But as I said, I enjoy discussing things like this, so I will. I would however like to be given the basic respect of people not dismissing my opinion out of hand as wrong, close-minded, boring and stupid.
I think ( my very personal opinion ) that having knights in shining armor being allies with engineers with laser mines, tanks and automatic turrets is too much. You don't have to agree. ANet doesn't have to change anything. But I would like the respect of not being called wrong or boring for my personal taste in games.
Why is it so hard not to reply with this "Might I humbly suggest to those people that Guild Wars 2 simply isn't for you?" in the first place?
We are the bunny. Resistance is futile. ''/\/\'''''/\/\''''''/\/\ ( o.o) ( o.o) ( o.o) (")("),,(")("),(")(")
Gobla, why does *everyone* have to be using engineering for *some* people to be using engineering. That makes no sense at all. In this world, people do different things. People are different, and they have different preferences. Some people still cannot use a computer properly.
I mean, it's not like everyone can summon wind storms or undead minions. Why should everyone be able to summon turrets? What is your problem with this? It seems perfectly logical to me, and apparently to just about everyone else. What is confusing you so much? None of your posts really make any sense to me. It's like your talking gibberish.
It seems like everyone else things it fits into the lore just fine, is my point.
Maybe that's why?
I could have, just maybe, different preferences as to what make immersive and believable fantasy worlds?
Why does what seems logical to you in a fantasy world have to be logical to me?
I think having steam tanks, batmobiles, laser mines and automatic turrets next to medieval knights is too much. Some basic engineering, sure. But the tanks and cars is going too far in my opinion. Even if you don't understand my line of reasoning why must it immediatly be 'wrong'?
I don't like it. I've tried to explain my reasons but apperantly they don't make sense to you. It happens. You could try explaining why you like cheese ( if you do ) but I doubt your reasons would make sense to me, I don't like cheese at all.
I don't like Steam tanks riding alongside medieval paladins. It doesn't fit, in my opinion. That's all it is.
We are the bunny. Resistance is futile. ''/\/\'''''/\/\''''''/\/\ ( o.o) ( o.o) ( o.o) (")("),,(")("),(")(")
I am with Gobla here ! I have seen alot of people state their problem with the steampunk approach. And I have seen people whine ower it aswell. And I have seen alot of people going over the fence, in defending the descission that ArenaNet have made.
I personal find that there should be a place for mourning over the loss of a pure fantasy world, and if it not should be when the fackt of whats made instead is shown, I don't know when it should be!
I have prefered a no guns, no steampunk and no advanced tecknologi story. Though I was not that much on the fence with the guns.That is not to say that i dislike what ArenaNet are doing with steampunk, when that chocie is made. I think it's really well made, and I appriciate the art, the implementation and the feel of it. And I am looking forward to the playstyle the engineer is providing. And I know that steampunk will grow on me with time.
And I do hope that alot of people are really happy by the descission, enjoy it and are exsited about it. (because if not it would be a bad call by ArenaNet ...). But the purist in me needs time for Mourning.
And then i will be back wanting to be the first to capture a steampunk car and drive it in a big crash in to a big dragonboss, for the stunt of the year.... OH YEAH...
I don't like Steam tanks riding alongside medieval paladins. It doesn't fit, in my opinion. That's all it is.
I see your point here, because technology just instantly replaces what was used before it. I mean look at our world I am sure you will never see an example of your metaphorical “Knight and Steam tank”. Oh wait!
Oh and those darn Germans using horse cavalry right next to the Tiger tank (arguably one of the best tanks ever built) during World War 2.
Darn pictures and facts of WW2 they screw up all logical theory discussions! Well I guess then let’s take a look at the car and how long it took for it to replace the horse and buggy that we can see in the picture. Since that might give us a realistic view of how long it would take the technology that the Charr created in GW2 to become main stream. In essence how long does it take for a new technology to replace old ideas like a medieval Knight?
Well then let’s get right into the heart of the matter! All technology goes through an S-curve where it first gets used by early adopters, usually around this time only about 10% of the population is using the new technology. Once a technology reaches the 10% market level it has gone through all of the obstacles of manufacturing and technical problems, not ever product invented reaches this point. With reaching 10% the masses learn more about the product and it sky rockets from 10% to 90%, in the same amount of time it took the product to go from idea to 10%. So if it took 7 years for the product to reach the level where 10% of its market is using it, then it will take another 7 years for the product to go from 10% to 90%. So now that the basics are out of the way, let’s take a more in depth look at the car.
In 1885 Karl Benz is credited with the invention of the modern automobile with the creation of the first gasoline engine. In 1908 Henry ford introduces the first mass produced car the model T. Then in the early 1910s the number of automobiles owned by consumers surpassed the number of horse and buggies, although the horse and buggies was still used into the 1920s. So with these facts, we can see that it took the car 23 years (1885 to 1908) to reach the 10% mark and to become accepted by the masses. Then over the next 23 years the car would have made the climb from 10% to 90% market penetration, in essence ending the era of the horse and buggy. With the 23 years it took the car to reach 10% it would have been common to see a horse and buggy right next to a car on the streets of the world.
Well now that we have all of these facts on our world, what can it show us about the world of GW2? First off we know from the interviews that the engineer is based off a new technology, since it is just barley spreading to the other races. So I think we can safely assume that it has not reached 10% market volume yet! So then would it be possible, with all the facts we know of our world, that a steam tank and Knight could fit logically into the same world. Well if the technology the Charr is inventing came in a rapid progression from guns to tanks to combat engineers in a few short years, then it would be possible because they would have not reached 10% and started replacing the old technology for the masses. For example that the Charr mines, turrets, and tanks have not reached 10% and been accepted by the masses yet. But let’s say in another 10 years all of these new technologies will reach the 10% level and then skyrocket to 90% over the next 10 years. During that 20 year time period the old technology that the races in GW2 use would be replaced, but during that first 10 years to get to 10% it would be common to see the old and new technology together. In our world that did not occur because the gun, tank, and the other technology were spread across decades. But does that really mean it could not have occurred in GW2 in a short time span, in affect making a Knight and a steam tank common to see. Of course like I said as the new technology advances it would eliminate the Knight and all the old technology, so it will be interesting to see what ANet does with Tryia over the next 100 years.
I think the facts of the technology S-curve and the time line of GW2 makes the steam tank and Knight riding besides each other completely logical. Since we are seeing new technology progressing and changing the world of GW2 in essence we are seeing the WW2 era in a fantasy world (tiger tank and horse calvary). Of course these facts do not need to change anyone’s point of view, anyone that does not like guns and steampunk can still not like it. But please do not say that your point of view is covered by logic, because from the example I just gave you logic can completely validate GW2.
I don't like Steam tanks riding alongside medieval paladins. It doesn't fit, in my opinion. That's all it is.
I see your point here, because technology just instantly replaces what was used before it. I mean look at our world I am sure you will never see an example of your metaphorical “Knight and Steam tank”. Oh wait!
That car is hardly the equivalent of the Charr steamtank. That buggy is hardly the equivalent of a medieval paladin.
Oh and those darn Germans using horse cavalry right next to the Tiger tank (arguably one of the best tanks ever built) during World War 2.
Because those horse cavalry were medieval knights in full plate using swords and maces...... You know like the guardian has full plate ad maces?
Darn pictures and facts of WW2 they screw up all logical theory discussions! Well I guess then let’s take a look at the car and how long it took for it to replace the horse and buggy that we can see in the picture. Since that might give us a realistic view of how long it would take the technology that the Charr created in GW2 to become main stream. In essence how long does it take for a new technology to replace old ideas like a medieval Knight?
Because the first cars totally looked like those Charr tanks and batmobiles do...... No difference at all.
Well then let’s get right into the heart of the matter! All technology goes through an S-curve where it first gets used by early adopters, usually around this time only about 10% of the population is using the new technology. Once a technology reaches the 10% market level it has gone through all of the obstacles of manufacturing and technical problems, not ever product invented reaches this point. With reaching 10% the masses learn more about the product and it sky rockets from 10% to 90%, in the same amount of time it took the product to go from idea to 10%. So if it took 7 years for the product to reach the level where 10% of its market is using it, then it will take another 7 years for the product to go from 10% to 90%. So now that the basics are out of the way, let’s take a more in depth look at the car.
When 2 cultures are in an alliance and friends with each other ( seeing as Charr and humans will constantly party in-game they're friends as far as I'm concerned ) the other professions would use a little bit of engineering technology. Not a lot, but a little bit. You're saying that there are absolutely no Guardian, Elementalist and Necromancer early adopters in the entire GW2 universe at all whatsoever? Sure, that's logic.....
In 1885 Karl Benz is credited with the invention of the modern automobile with the creation of the first gasoline engine. In 1908 Henry ford introduces the first mass produced car the model T. Then in the early 1910s the number of automobiles owned by consumers surpassed the number of horse and buggies, although the horse and buggies was still used into the 1920s. So with these facts, we can see that it took the car 23 years (1885 to 1908) to reach the 10% mark and to become accepted by the masses. Then over the next 23 years the car would have made the climb from 10% to 90% market penetration, in essence ending the era of the horse and buggy. With the 23 years it took the car to reach 10% it would have been common to see a horse and buggy right next to a car on the streets of the world.
1885 was quite a while after the middle ages you know...... You know that time the guardian is from.....
g2g now but I'll edit in some more comments later. Steamtanks that look like from 1950s next to knights from the 1200s that are friends and allies with each other is, imho, not fitting.
Well now that we have all of these facts on our world, what can it show us about the world of GW2? First off we know from the interviews that the engineer is based off a new technology, since it is just barley spreading to the other races. So I think we can safely assume that it has not reached 10% market volume yet! So then would it be possible, with all the facts we know of our world, that a steam tank and Knight could fit logically into the same world. Well if the technology the Charr is inventing came in a rapid progression from guns to tanks to combat engineers in a few short years, then it would be possible because they would have not reached 10% and started replacing the old technology for the masses. For example if the Charr mines, turrets, and tanks have not reached 10% and been accepted by the masses yet. But let’s say in another 10 years all of these new technologies will reach the 10% level and then skyrocket to 90% over the next 10 years. During that 20 year time period the old technology that the races in GW2 use would be replaced, but during that first 10 years to get to 10% it would be common to see the old and new technology together. In our world that did not occur because the gun, tank, and the other technology where spread across decades. But does that really mean it could not have occurred in GW2 in a short time span, in affect making a Knight and a steam tank common to see. Of course like I said as the new technology advances it would eliminate the Knight and all the old technology, so it will be interesting to see what ANet does with Tryia over the next 100 years.
I think the facts of the technology S-curve and the time line of GW2 makes the steam tank and Knight riding besides each other completely logical. Since we are seeing new technology progressing and changing the world of GW2 in essence we are seeing the WW2 era in a fantasy world (tiger tank and horse calvary). Of course these facts do not need to change anyone’s point of view, anyone that does not like guns and steampunk can still not liking it. But please do not say that your point of view is covered by logic, because from the example I just gave you logic can completely validate GW2.
I don't like Steam tanks riding alongside medieval paladins. It doesn't fit, in my opinion. That's all it is.
I see your point here, because technology just instantly replaces what was used before it. I mean look at our world I am sure you will never see an example of your metaphorical “Knight and Steam tank”. Oh wait!
That car is hardly the equivalent of the Charr steamtank. That buggy is hardly the equivalent of a medieval paladin.
Great job at understand the metaphor, golfclap
Oh and those darn Germans using horse cavalry right next to the Tiger tank (arguably one of the best tanks ever built) during World War 2.
Because those horse cavalry were medieval knights in full plate using swords and maces...... You know like the guardian has full plate ad maces?
Oh yes because there is no similarities here after all! It is not like we see the old technology of warfare here with the new technology of warfare, you are right no similarities at all. After all horse Calvary from 1800s fits perfect in with a Tiger tank!
Darn pictures and facts of WW2 they screw up all logical theory discussions! Well I guess then let’s take a look at the car and how long it took for it to replace the horse and buggy that we can see in the picture. Since that might give us a realistic view of how long it would take the technology that the Charr created in GW2 to become main stream. In essence how long does it take for a new technology to replace old ideas like a medieval Knight?
Because the first cars totally looked like those Charr tanks and batmobiles do...... No difference at all.
Yeah and that has to do with anything I just said…..NOT! Great job at creating a useless argument that has nothing to do with what I said.
Well then let’s get right into the heart of the matter! All technology goes through an S-curve where it first gets used by early adopters, usually around this time only about 10% of the population is using the new technology. Once a technology reaches the 10% market level it has gone through all of the obstacles of manufacturing and technical problems, not ever product invented reaches this point. With reaching 10% the masses learn more about the product and it sky rockets from 10% to 90%, in the same amount of time it took the product to go from idea to 10%. So if it took 7 years for the product to reach the level where 10% of its market is using it, then it will take another 7 years for the product to go from 10% to 90%. So now that the basics are out of the way, let’s take a more in depth look at the car.
When 2 cultures are in an alliance and friends with each other ( seeing as Charr and humans will constantly party in-game they're friends as far as I'm concerned ) the other professions would use a little bit of engineering technology. Not a lot, but a little bit. You're saying that there are absolutely no Guardian, Elementalist and Necromancer early adopters in the entire GW2 universe at all whatsoever? Sure, that's logic.....
Oh you mean like the German and Italians during WW2? According to you that means German Technology should have been everywhere in the Italian army! Guess what; it wasn’t in fact the Italian tanks were nowhere close to being as good as the German tanks. So how does that fit into your all alliances should have each other’s technology theory? So why didn’t the Italians or Japanese have a little bit of German tank technology in their tanks? Great logic there buddy!
Well since the Guardian, Necromancer, and Elementalist is a professioncareer choice it makes total sense. People that are early adopters would go with a profession that had accepted the new technology. While the people that have not learned about it or are resistant to change would go with career choices that are more inclined with the old technology. So a Guardian, Elementalist, and Necromancer would be a person that has already decided to choose a career in a profession that has been around for a long time. Now since it is a profession and if people decided to leave it they would become whatever that new profession is called. Like when an accountant leaves his profession to become a computer scientist, that person is not referred to as an account anymore. Just as if a person decides to stop being a guardian and becomes an engineer, he is not referred to as a Guardian anymore he would be called a Engineer since that is his new career. Does that make sense?
In 1885 Karl Benz is credited with the invention of the modern automobile with the creation of the first gasoline engine. In 1908 Henry ford introduces the first mass produced car the model T. Then in the early 1910s the number of automobiles owned by consumers surpassed the number of horse and buggies, although the horse and buggies was still used into the 1920s. So with these facts, we can see that it took the car 23 years (1885 to 1908) to reach the 10% mark and to become accepted by the masses. Then over the next 23 years the car would have made the climb from 10% to 90% market penetration, in essence ending the era of the horse and buggy. With the 23 years it took the car to reach 10% it would have been common to see a horse and buggy right next to a car on the streets of the world.
1885 was quite a while after the middle ages you know...... You know that time the guardian is from.....
OH so now every world according to you has to follow the same time line as our world? After all your argument about the Middle Ages and the guardian is only valid if you are saying GW2 has to follow our time line. So is that what you are saying? That no author or designer ever can create a world that does not follow our technology time line!
Also if you look at the example I was giving I was talking about technology integrating itself in to society. So your 1885 was quite while after the middle age comment is pointless and has nothing to do with what I wrote. Unless like I said you believe ever author ever should follow the same technology time line as our world this argument has no weight to it.
g2g now but I'll edit in some more comments later. Steamtanks that look like from 1950s next to knights from the 1200s that are friends and allies with each other is, imho, not fitting.
Well maybe when you get back you well have something intelligent to say about what I actually wrote! Maybe actually things that have to do with the example and the metaphor I use instead of just comments like they look different!
Well now that we have all of these facts on our world, what can it show us about the world of GW2? First off we know from the interviews that the engineer is based off a new technology, since it is just barley spreading to the other races. So I think we can safely assume that it has not reached 10% market volume yet! So then would it be possible, with all the facts we know of our world, that a steam tank and Knight could fit logically into the same world. Well if the technology the Charr is inventing came in a rapid progression from guns to tanks to combat engineers in a few short years, then it would be possible because they would have not reached 10% and started replacing the old technology for the masses. For example if the Charr mines, turrets, and tanks have not reached 10% and been accepted by the masses yet. But let’s say in another 10 years all of these new technologies will reach the 10% level and then skyrocket to 90% over the next 10 years. During that 20 year time period the old technology that the races in GW2 use would be replaced, but during that first 10 years to get to 10% it would be common to see the old and new technology together. In our world that did not occur because the gun, tank, and the other technology where spread across decades. But does that really mean it could not have occurred in GW2 in a short time span, in affect making a Knight and a steam tank common to see. Of course like I said as the new technology advances it would eliminate the Knight and all the old technology, so it will be interesting to see what ANet does with Tryia over the next 100 years.
I think the facts of the technology S-curve and the time line of GW2 makes the steam tank and Knight riding besides each other completely logical. Since we are seeing new technology progressing and changing the world of GW2 in essence we are seeing the WW2 era in a fantasy world (tiger tank and horse calvary). Of course these facts do not need to change anyone’s point of view, anyone that does not like guns and steampunk can still not liking it. But please do not say that your point of view is covered by logic, because from the example I just gave you logic can completely validate GW2.
Originally posted by Dubhlaith Gobla, why does *everyone* have to be using engineering for *some* people to be using engineering. That makes no sense at all. In this world, people do different things. People are different, and they have different preferences. Some people still cannot use a computer properly. I mean, it's not like everyone can summon wind storms or undead minions. Why should everyone be able to summon turrets? What is your problem with this? It seems perfectly logical to me, and apparently to just about everyone else. What is confusing you so much? None of your posts really make any sense to me. It's like your talking gibberish. It seems like everyone else things it fits into the lore just fine, is my point.
Maybe that's why? I could have, just maybe, different preferences as to what make immersive and believable fantasy worlds? Why does what seems logical to you in a fantasy world have to be logical to me? I think having steam tanks, batmobiles, laser mines and automatic turrets next to medieval knights is too much. Some basic engineering, sure. But the tanks and cars is going too far in my opinion. Even if you don't understand my line of reasoning why must it immediatly be 'wrong'? I don't like it. I've tried to explain my reasons but apperantly they don't make sense to you. It happens. You could try explaining why you like cheese ( if you do ) but I doubt your reasons would make sense to me, I don't like cheese at all. I don't like Steam tanks riding alongside medieval paladins. It doesn't fit, in my opinion. That's all it is.
I did say that, Gobla, in fact you've highlighted exactly the reason a world does not evolve in the way you seem to want. There are still people who cannot or refuse to use technology. Why is it so hard to believe that people who just learned about this stuff a few years ago wouldn't be using it? How is that "too much?" You've claimed logic, and you have claimed your preferences, but you have shown no actual reasoning.
AKASlaphappy pretty much slapped you silly with logic and evidence, and you refused to listen to any of it. I could say people using bows to kill animals doesn't fit, in my opinion, when people could be using guns. That doesn't make my opinion right. It just means I don't like what actually is, in the real world. I could say I don't think people riding horses doesn't fit when you have cars, but guess what?! People still do that. People also use bicycles. Many use them exclusively. Some people don't have televisions, and some don't use technology at all. In this era.
So how does it make less sense in a world where less-advanced technology is even newer, and where these "medieval knights" (which is a ridiculous characterization in any case), can actually block bullets? The short answer? It doesn't make less sense. It makes perfect sense. I am not saying you are not entitled to your opinion, and I am not going to try and get you to play GW2 (quite the contrary), but I would like you to either use some logic to make your points, or stop trying to say you don't like it being because it doesn't make sense. There is more than a hundred years of evidence in the real world that it does make sense.
Edit: Also, show me where Anet has said guardians or necromancers or whatever can use no engineering technology? Maybe they, like in the real world, can use things that require no special skills. Like the asura door in a pocket, or indoor plumbing.
"Gamers will no longer buy the argument that every MMO requires a subscription fee to offset server and bandwidth costs. It's not true you know it, and they know it." Jeff Strain, co-founder of ArenaNet, 2007
I don't like Steam tanks riding alongside medieval paladins. It doesn't fit, in my opinion. That's all it is.
I see your point here, because technology just instantly replaces what was used before it. I mean look at our world I am sure you will never see an example of your metaphorical “Knight and Steam tank”. Oh wait!
That car is hardly the equivalent of the Charr steamtank. That buggy is hardly the equivalent of a medieval paladin.
Great job at understand the metaphor, golfclap
The world isn't black and white. The options aren't full adoption of technology and full rejection of technology. Those carriages aren't that far behind that car. Some people in them will have a measure of engineering technology, even if it isn't the car itself.
The Charr steamtank and medieval guardian are extremely far apart. The guardian has absolutely no mechanical technology at all while the engineer has nothing but technology. Technology is accepted in a gradient. Some use a lot, some only very little. But it's ridicilious in my opinion to have classes that use absolutly no engineering technology at all in any way or form alongside those who're building entire steamtanks ( quite a few levels past that car. )
Oh and those darn Germans using horse cavalry right next to the Tiger tank (arguably one of the best tanks ever built) during World War 2.
Because those horse cavalry were medieval knights in full plate using swords and maces...... You know like the guardian has full plate ad maces?
Oh yes because there is no similarities here after all! It is not like we see the old technology of warfare here with the new technology of warfare, you are right no similarities at all. After all horse Calvary from 1800s fits perfect in with a Tiger tank!
Those horse cavalry use guns, explosives etc.. They use some engineering technology. They have some similairities with that tank. Half the GW2 classes use absolutely no engineering technology at all. None. Nothing. And that's just way too extreme. A gradient is believable it ranges from nearly 100% to nearly 0% but it's never ever completely and never ever nothing. Even today's most advanced tanks use ancient technology ( like wheels... ) and even the most primitive allies ( not enemies ) of any technological culture use some technology ( the easiest and simplest forms of it that don't need much instruction )
Darn pictures and facts of WW2 they screw up all logical theory discussions! Well I guess then let’s take a look at the car and how long it took for it to replace the horse and buggy that we can see in the picture. Since that might give us a realistic view of how long it would take the technology that the Charr created in GW2 to become main stream. In essence how long does it take for a new technology to replace old ideas like a medieval Knight?
Because the first cars totally looked like those Charr tanks and batmobiles do...... No difference at all.
Yeah and that has to do with anything I just said…..NOT! Great job at creating a useless argument that has nothing to do with what I said.
The Charr tanks and cars are quite some ways past a basic clockwork/steam powered vehicle. The first cars still looked quite a lot like buggies, the basic frame was much the same. A ferrari didn't just pop into the middle of all those cars. The change came slowly and steadily. First a small amount of primitive cars. Then a small amount of more advanced cars and a larger amount of the primitive ones etc. In GW2 we see extremely advanced steamtanks and batmobiles right next to medieval knights and sorcerors. There's nothing in between. No middle ground. There aren't any guardians with a little bit of engineering in between, no elementalists and necromancers that use even the tiniest bit of technology. That's the problem. It skips from midieval straight onto steampunk. The warrior and thief are realistic because they show a gradient. There's the warrior with sword and shield on one side but there's also the warrior with a simple gun. The engineer will likely also be able to bridge the gap by keeping a shield and selecting lower-tech utility skills, he can also sit somewhere in between. But for half the classes there's absolutely no middle ground at all. No option to take even a single step towards technology. And that's just not fitting in a world where technology is available.
Well then let’s get right into the heart of the matter! All technology goes through an S-curve where it first gets used by early adopters, usually around this time only about 10% of the population is using the new technology. Once a technology reaches the 10% market level it has gone through all of the obstacles of manufacturing and technical problems, not ever product invented reaches this point. With reaching 10% the masses learn more about the product and it sky rockets from 10% to 90%, in the same amount of time it took the product to go from idea to 10%. So if it took 7 years for the product to reach the level where 10% of its market is using it, then it will take another 7 years for the product to go from 10% to 90%. So now that the basics are out of the way, let’s take a more in depth look at the car.
When 2 cultures are in an alliance and friends with each other ( seeing as Charr and humans will constantly party in-game they're friends as far as I'm concerned ) the other professions would use a little bit of engineering technology. Not a lot, but a little bit. You're saying that there are absolutely no Guardian, Elementalist and Necromancer early adopters in the entire GW2 universe at all whatsoever? Sure, that's logic.....
Oh you mean like the German and Italians during WW2? According to you that means German Technology should have been everywhere in the Italian army! Guess what; it wasn’t in fact the Italian tanks were nowhere close to being as good as the German tanks. So how does that fit into your all alliances should have each other’s technology theory? So why didn’t the Italians or Japanese have a little bit of German tank technology in their tanks?
Italians and germans both have tanks. I don't see any guardians in more primitive tanks do you? Again gradient. The most advanced italian tanks where equal or better then the least advanced german tanks. The most advanced japanese tanks were equal or better then the least advanced german tanks. The most advanced guardian technology is still ages behind the least advanced engineer's technology. The most advanced elementalist technology is still ages behind the least advanced engineer's technology. The most advanced necromancer technology is still ages behind the least advanced engineer's technology.
Elementalist and Necromancer where around in GW1 so no there would not be any early adopters, since the masses would have already accepted them a long time ago. As for the Guardian, yes there is going to be groups that accept the idea quicker than others, hence why the lore developers have said that there is going to be few Charr Guardian NPCs. I suggest you read through this again since you apparently do not understand this is about technology and not a profession. In fact your whole Elementalist, Necromancer, and Guardian speech has nothing to do with what was written, since it was about how technology integrates into society. Is a Guardian a technology? The suit of armor a guardian wears is a technology but a guardian is not a technology. So you’re so right that is logic, since you are making a professioncareer a technology. Great logic there buddy!
I was talking about Elementalists and Necromancers being early engineering adopters. You know fred the elementalist being a really progressive guy so throwing an oil grenade at his enemies before fireballing them for extra effect. Or bob the guardian using a pistol since it's easy to use ( unlike a bow ) and available anyway? Or if that's too much then just some tiny little thing. A minor clockwork device, something at least. Some sign that says that these classes actually know that more advanced technology exists. Some gradient. Some way for that guardian to stand just the tiniest little bit closer on the technological scale to that steam tank so the gap isn't quite as ridiciliously large as it is now.
In 1885 Karl Benz is credited with the invention of the modern automobile with the creation of the first gasoline engine. In 1908 Henry ford introduces the first mass produced car the model T. Then in the early 1910s the number of automobiles owned by consumers surpassed the number of horse and buggies, although the horse and buggies was still used into the 1920s. So with these facts, we can see that it took the car 23 years (1885 to 1908) to reach the 10% mark and to become accepted by the masses. Then over the next 23 years the car would have made the climb from 10% to 90% market penetration, in essence ending the era of the horse and buggy. With the 23 years it took the car to reach 10% it would have been common to see a horse and buggy right next to a car on the streets of the world.
1885 was quite a while after the middle ages you know...... You know that time the guardian is from.....
OH so now every world according to you has to follow the same time line as our world? After all your argument about the Middle Ages and the guardian is only valid if you are saying GW2 has to follow our time line. So is that what you are saying? That no author or designer ever can create a world that does not follow our technology time line!
You're the one bringing a real life timeline into the conversation and comparing GW2 to it, not me. I'm saying that there should be gradient. The most advanced guardian shouldn't be as insanely far away from the least advanced engineer as it is right now. No nation even *poofed* from the middle ages straight into the industrial revolution. There's gradient. There's stuff in between. And no class should be locked into the most extreme part of that gradient. There should be minor technological abilities bridging the gap. Just like every class has a tiny bit of magic in the form of signets and other magical abilities to bridge the magical gap every class should have a tiny bit of technology to bridge that technological gap.
Also if you look at the example I was giving I was talking about technology integrating itself in to society. So your 1885 was quite while after the middle age comment is pointless and has nothing to do with what I wrote. Unless like I said you believe ever author ever should follow the same technology time line as our world this argument has no weight to it.
Yes, it integrates. It doesn't *poof* from one extreme to another. There's stuff in between. There's indians with a single old gun. There's marines with knifes. There are buggies with engines. etc. There's gradient everywhere in a realistic world. Yet the elementalist, necromancer and guardian have absolutely no gradient at all. Nothing technological at all. No gradient. As such I don't find it fitting.
g2g now but I'll edit in some more comments later. Steamtanks that look like from 1950s next to knights from the 1200s that are friends and allies with each other is, imho, not fitting.
Well maybe when you get back you well have something intelligent to say about what I actually wrote! Maybe actually things that have to do with the example and the metaphor I use instead of just comments like they look different!
Meh, I was slightly annoyed and quite sarcastic. Hopefully you're able to atleast understand my position now. I'm not saying everyone has to feel the same way. If you're fine with the way they're doing things then all power to you. But I do believe that me and others who don't feel it's done quite right aren't just being close-minded naysayers. We do have good reasons for feeling this way.
Well now that we have all of these facts on our world, what can it show us about the world of GW2? First off we know from the interviews that the engineer is based off a new technology, since it is just barley spreading to the other races. So I think we can safely assume that it has not reached 10% market volume yet! So then would it be possible, with all the facts we know of our world, that a steam tank and Knight could fit logically into the same world. Well if the technology the Charr is inventing came in a rapid progression from guns to tanks to combat engineers in a few short years, then it would be possible because they would have not reached 10% and started replacing the old technology for the masses. For example if the Charr mines, turrets, and tanks have not reached 10% and been accepted by the masses yet. But let’s say in another 10 years all of these new technologies will reach the 10% level and then skyrocket to 90% over the next 10 years. During that 20 year time period the old technology that the races in GW2 use would be replaced, but during that first 10 years to get to 10% it would be common to see the old and new technology together. In our world that did not occur because the gun, tank, and the other technology where spread across decades. But does that really mean it could not have occurred in GW2 in a short time span, in affect making a Knight and a steam tank common to see. Of course like I said as the new technology advances it would eliminate the Knight and all the old technology, so it will be interesting to see what ANet does with Tryia over the next 100 years.
I think the facts of the technology S-curve and the time line of GW2 makes the steam tank and Knight riding besides each other completely logical. Since we are seeing new technology progressing and changing the world of GW2 in essence we are seeing the WW2 era in a fantasy world (tiger tank and horse calvary). Of course these facts do not need to change anyone’s point of view, anyone that does not like guns and steampunk can still not liking it. But please do not say that your point of view is covered by logic, because from the example I just gave you logic can completely validate GW2.
Not trying to be rude, but maybe reading through what I wrote and understand it would be a good idea before replaying.
As I said, mostly sarcasm and a bit of annoyance was speaking. Hopefully it's clearer now.
EDIT: The point I'm making is not that there should be total technological equality ( which you can disprove by showing there is some inequality, which you did. ) The point I'm making is that there shouldn't total technological inequality either ( which you can disprove by showing that there's only inequality and no equality at all, which you didn't. )
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Also there is no magic in this world, if you shoot a guy once with a gun hes pretty much deaded, etc. etc. This comparison cannot be drawn and thinkign you can is silly. The question you should be asking is are guns that much more effective than the tools they are replacing in GW2 the answer is NO, therefore they will not come to fully replace the older technology untiul they are. Still use can be found for them, as they are effective.
"Society in every state is a blessing, but government even in its best state is but a necessary evil; in its worst state an intolerable one ..." - Thomas Paine
I did say that, Gobla, in fact you've highlighted exactly the reason a world does not evolve in the way you seem to want. There are still people who cannot or refuse to use technology. Why is it so hard to believe that people who just learned about this stuff a few years ago wouldn't be using it? How is that "too much?" You've claimed logic, and you have claimed your preferences, but you have shown no actual reasoning.
AKASlaphappy pretty much slapped you silly with logic and evidence, and you refused to listen to any of it. I could say people using bows to kill animals doesn't fit, in my opinion, when people could be using guns. That doesn't make my opinion right. It just means I don't like what actually is, in the real world. I could say I don't think people riding horses doesn't fit when you have cars, but guess what?! People still do that. People also use bicycles. Many use them exclusively. Some people don't have televisions, and some don't use technology at all. In this era.
So how does it make less sense in a world where less-advanced technology is even newer, and where these "medieval knights" (which is a ridiculous characterization in any case), can actually block bullets? The short answer? It doesn't make less sense. It makes perfect sense. I am not saying you are not entitled to your opinion, and I am not going to try and get you to play GW2 (quite the contrary), but I would like you to either use some logic to make your points, or stop trying to say you don't like it being because it doesn't make sense. There is more than a hundred years of evidence in the real world that it does make sense.
Edit: Also, show me where Anet has said guardians or necromancers or whatever can use no engineering technology? Maybe they, like in the real world, can use things that require no special skills. Like the asura door in a pocket, or indoor plumbing.
As I said in my other post there's gradient in the real world. It's not one extreme on one side and another on the other side. Most things are in between.
As of right now there aren't any technological abilities and/or weapon for the Guardian, Elementalist and Necromancer. So, currently, I don't think it's fitting. If they do introduce technological weapons/abilities then great thing, problem solved. But right now the gap is just too big.
Magic is a gradient. One one side is the warrior who uses nearly no magic but still has signets and for example mending. He's got a little bit. I can build a halfway magical warrior by giving him lots of signets, mending, a battle standard ( at least slightly magical if it can knock down enemies ) etc. and I can build a halfway martial elementalist by giving him dual wielding daggers, conjuring vapor blades, frost bows, lava axes etc.
They can't reach the other side of the magical extreme but each class, when build in a specific way, can go some way to bridge the gap.
When it comes to engineering half the classes do not, currently, have that option at all. And that doesn't make sense. That isn't logical. The real world isn't black and white like that, it's shades of grey.
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As of right now there aren't any technological abilities and/or weapon for the Guardian, Elementalist and Necromancer. So, currently, I don't think it's fitting. If they do introduce technological weapons/abilities then great thing, problem solved. But right now the gap is just too big.
Well there is a huge flaw with what you said here, that could have been easily avoided with a little research. Back in August of 2010 at Gamescom in Germany Arena Net revealed some of the different weapons you can get in the game. They talked about ghostly weapons that glow at night, clockwork weapons that collapse and expand, and icy weapons that shatter then reform. So if you are a technology minded Elementalist you can get a clockwork staff, if you are a technology minded Necromancer you can get a clockwork axe and focus, and if you are a technology minded Guardian you can get a clockwork mace and shield.
Well if you did not know better you might start thinking that ANet has people on staff that creates lore to help the world come alive. After all talking about clockwork weapons a full 9 months in front of the Engineer announcement might make you think that they know what they are doing.
T o think I made my little speech because I thought you knew your facts and I did not just have to provide a link to a video. Well here is your link to a gamescom video where the developers talk about clockwork weapons, they start talking about it at 24 minutes into the video after they switch to the Charr. If you want to find more info about it there are still a bunch of videos and interviews from Gamescom out there. In fact there is a sticky in this very forum with a nice collection of videos and interviews. Although I am sure you can come up with another reason now why the engineer does not fit in with the lore, after all I would not want to end the debate here.
I did say that, Gobla, in fact you've highlighted exactly the reason a world does not evolve in the way you seem to want. There are still people who cannot or refuse to use technology. Why is it so hard to believe that people who just learned about this stuff a few years ago wouldn't be using it? How is that "too much?" You've claimed logic, and you have claimed your preferences, but you have shown no actual reasoning.
AKASlaphappy pretty much slapped you silly with logic and evidence, and you refused to listen to any of it. I could say people using bows to kill animals doesn't fit, in my opinion, when people could be using guns. That doesn't make my opinion right. It just means I don't like what actually is, in the real world. I could say I don't think people riding horses doesn't fit when you have cars, but guess what?! People still do that. People also use bicycles. Many use them exclusively. Some people don't have televisions, and some don't use technology at all. In this era.
So how does it make less sense in a world where less-advanced technology is even newer, and where these "medieval knights" (which is a ridiculous characterization in any case), can actually block bullets? The short answer? It doesn't make less sense. It makes perfect sense. I am not saying you are not entitled to your opinion, and I am not going to try and get you to play GW2 (quite the contrary), but I would like you to either use some logic to make your points, or stop trying to say you don't like it being because it doesn't make sense. There is more than a hundred years of evidence in the real world that it does make sense.
Edit: Also, show me where Anet has said guardians or necromancers or whatever can use no engineering technology? Maybe they, like in the real world, can use things that require no special skills. Like the asura door in a pocket, or indoor plumbing.
As I said in my other post there's gradient in the real world. It's not one extreme on one side and another on the other side. Most things are in between.
As of right now there aren't any technological abilities and/or weapon for the Guardian, Elementalist and Necromancer. So, currently, I don't think it's fitting. If they do introduce technological weapons/abilities then great thing, problem solved. But right now the gap is just too big.
Magic is a gradient. One one side is the warrior who uses nearly no magic but still has signets and for example mending. He's got a little bit. I can build a halfway magical warrior by giving him lots of signets, mending, a battle standard ( at least slightly magical if it can knock down enemies ) etc. and I can build a halfway martial elementalist by giving him dual wielding daggers, conjuring vapor blades, frost bows, lava axes etc.
They can't reach the other side of the magical extreme but each class, when build in a specific way, can go some way to bridge the gap.
When it comes to engineering half the classes do not, currently, have that option at all. And that doesn't make sense. That isn't logical. The real world isn't black and white like that, it's shades of grey.
This isn't Earth, this is Tyria. Combat Engineers are new. Not everbody is going to be using their technology. It doesn't matter how easy it is to throw a grenade or pull a trigger, caster's don't need those gadgets because their magic can do the same thing just as easily.
Stop using your own imaginary lore to justify a connection between casting classes and martial classes.
Well there is a huge flaw with what you said here, that could have been easily avoided with a little research. Back in August of 2010 at Gamescom in Germany Arena Net revealed some of the different weapons you can get in the game. They talked about ghostly weapons that glow at night, clockwork weapons that collapse and expand, and icy weapons that shatter then reform. So if you are a technology minded Elementalist you can get a clockwork staff, if you are a technology minded Necromancer you can get a clockwork axe and focus, and if you are a technology minded Guardian you can get a clockwork mace and shield.
Well if you did not know better you might start thinking that ANet has people on staff that creates lore to help the world come alive. After all talking about clockwork weapons a full 9 months in front of the Engineer announcement might make you think that they know what they are doing.
T o think I made my little speech because I thought you knew your facts and I did not just have to provide a link to a video. Well here is your link to a gamescom video where the developers talk about clockwork weapons, they start talking about it at 24 minutes into the video after they switch to the Charr. If you want to find more info about it there are still a bunch of videos and interviews from Gamescom out there. In fact there is a sticky in this very forum with a nice collection of videos and interviews. Although I am sure you can come up with another reason now why the engineer does not fit in with the lore, after all I would not want to end the debate here.
Didn't know that, which improves things a lot. Still would like to see actual engineering abilities.
And I'm not acitvely out to bash GW2 or the Engineer. As I've said nearly a dozen times in this thread this is a minor inconsequential issue that I enjoy discussing. Problems arise when people start misinterpreting my complaints of every class should have a little bit of technology as every class should be techno-wizards. You could have mentioned this in the first place instead of going about a tirade on human history how not everyone isn't absolutely equal, which I wasn't contesting anyway.
When I complain about not all professions having access to technology the best way really is to show that all classes do have access to technology instead of trying to prove that it's realistic that not all classes have access to technology. It really works a lot better.
But does knowing your facts seriously mean having to watch every single GW2 video ever released? I mean we're still talking about a game here right? Not the scientific study of Guild Wars 2? We're talking about a single 20 second fragment from a 45 minute video which is just one among thousands of videos.
But I guess I'll start adding disclaimers that I am in fact not all-knowing and my posts shouldn't be interpreted as such....
Anyway, for me that improves things a lot. I can only hope that they add some for of technological abilities equivalent to signets to all the professions to round things out. That would complete the picture.
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For crying out loud...let this thread die already. All whats going on now is 2-3 people bickering back and forth. Okay you don't like the techie stuff, well suck it up because it's implemented. If ANet is gonna make changes it's sure as hell isn't gonna be based off one person on a non fan-affiliated site. People have made their point already on their views of the techie aspect of GW2.
This isn't Earth, this is Tyria. Combat Engineers are new. Not everbody is going to be using their technology. It doesn't matter how easy it is to throw a grenade or pull a trigger, caster's don't need those gadgets because their magic can do the same thing just as easily.
Stop using your own imaginary lore to justify a connection between casting classes and martial classes.
Look, you've got your ideas of what amount of 'realism' is necessary in fantasy to make a believable world ( and yes, a certain amount of 'realism' is necesarry in fantasy otherwise it'll just be nonsense to us humans as we're still using a human perception. ) and I've got my ideas of what amount of 'realism' is need in fantasy.
I think such a gradient is needed in fantasy to make for a believable world. But as AKASlapHappy was kind enough to finally point out such a gradient exists anyway so you can rest easy knowing GW2 is still as perfect as an unspoiled virgin, until release that is ( and no, I'm not saying GW2 will fail it just won't be the second coming of christ ). And yes, that was sarcasm.
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For crying out loud...let this thread die already. All whats going on now is 2-3 people bickering back and forth. Okay you don't like the techie stuff, well suck it up because it's implemented. If ANet is gonna make changes it's sure as hell isn't gonna be based off one person on a non fan-affiliated site. People have made their point already on their views of the techie aspect of GW2.
Hi, welcome to the forums. Here we like to discuss things about games. Anything really. None of it actually matters since, you know, they're just random opinions on the internet about random games. But we enjoy discussing things, which is why we come to the forums.
As long as there's people discussing things, whether it be bickering or not ( as long as no forum rules are broken ), this thread is doing exactly what it was meant to be doing. A place for people to share their opinions. And it doesn't actually matter what you, or anyone besides the forum staff, thinks of those opinions.
If you want the thread to die the best thing really is to not keep it alive by replying. If the thread's bothering you then the best thing really is not to view it in the first place.
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This isn't Earth, this is Tyria. Combat Engineers are new. Not everbody is going to be using their technology. It doesn't matter how easy it is to throw a grenade or pull a trigger, caster's don't need those gadgets because their magic can do the same thing just as easily.
Stop using your own imaginary lore to justify a connection between casting classes and martial classes.
Look, you've got your ideas of what amount of 'realism' is necessary in fantasy to make a believable world ( and yes, a certain amount of 'realism' is necesarry in fantasy otherwise it'll just be nonsense to us humans as we're still using a human perception. ) and I've got my ideas of what amount of 'realism' is need in fantasy.
I think such a gradient is needed in fantasy to make for a believable world. But as AKASlapHappy was kind enough to finally point out such a gradient exists anyway so you can rest easy knowing GW2 is still as perfect as an unspoiled virgin, until release that is ( and no, I'm not saying GW2 will fail it just won't be the second coming of christ ). And yes, that was sarcasm.
When did I ever mention realism? I hate realism in games. I play games for escapism. I just want the games I play to make sense using at least rudimentary logic. This isn't Earth, this is Tyria. Just because it did or didn't happen on Earth or could or couldn't happen on Earth doesn't mean it will or won't or can or can't happen on Tyria. Making those connections is stupid.
When did I ever mention realism? I hate realism in games. I play games for escapism. I just want the games I play to make sense using at least rudimentary logic. This isn't Earth, this is Tyria. Just because it did or didn't happen on Earth or could or couldn't happen on Earth doesn't mean it will or won't or can or can't happen on Tyria. Making those connections is stupid.
Rudimentary logic is your requirement. Mine are a bit higher. Why is that stupid?
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Comments
Seems like a fun class, but thief still gets my vote for now.
How much WoW could a WoWhater hate, if a WoWhater could hate WoW?
As much WoW as a WoWhater would, if a WoWhater could hate WoW.
Who says fantasy has to be strictly medieval (or how do you spell that word..)
On the other hand I think they should add some class restriction ..like every race couldnt have one proffesion, to prevent silly characters:
Asura - Warrior (no need for explain)
Charr - Guardian (pretty much human proffesion and since human hate charr lorewise and charr feel like "care of yourself - noone gonna do that for u")
Norn - Thief (Norn have no need for sneaking, they just stomp in and smash things)
Sylvari - Mesmer (Illusions wont fit with a race thats 20 years old...they're to naive and honest for it I guess...yet)
Human - Enginner (charr technology = nono for humans, sorry..)
I think I actually spent way more time reading and theorycrafting about MMOs than playing them
Foirst off, fantasy can be almost anything... so technollogy in a certain setting would be okay, or even be a very fresh thing ...
Humans are allways the race that will addapt, if there would be any other races using technollogy then it would be Asura and humans.
Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)
I'd willingly bet sylvaris use biotechnology quite well, which could be pretty powerful...
It's just one step from the sublime to the ridiculous.
C9 impatient awaiter
There's a simple truth, here: No amount of whining is going to remove the Clockpunk elements of the Engineer from the game. Jeff Grubb, ArenaNet's loremaster, wants them in there. And I really like them, as Clockpunk is something that some of the more advanced and clever fantasy authors have used (such as Neil Gaiman). But some people just want Boring Restrictive Dull Old Medieval Game III, which Guild Wars 2 clearly is not.
Might I humbly suggest to those people that Guild Wars 2 simply isn't for you? You can argue until the cows come home about the Engineer, but it isn't going to change Jeff Grubb's mind. Anyone who's been following the charr tide of advancement knew this was coming, as I did. I'm sure some people will remember me dropping hints about the Engineer a little while before its reveal, but that's because it was exceedingly obvious ot me.
Personally, I think it fits, I think it makes sense, and I think that demanding a world that's got consistent advancement world overis the most... it's... well... /picard ... that's all I can say to that. The Engineer is here to stay, love it or hate it, nothing is going to change it. ArenaNet has balls and they're not going to change it due to some people preferring boring medieval fantasy settings.
Right, said my piece, there. Felt I had to.
Gobla, why does *everyone* have to be using engineering for *some* people to be using engineering. That makes no sense at all. In this world, people do different things. People are different, and they have different preferences. Some people still cannot use a computer properly.
I mean, it's not like everyone can summon wind storms or undead minions. Why should everyone be able to summon turrets? What is your problem with this? It seems perfectly logical to me, and apparently to just about everyone else. What is confusing you so much? None of your posts really make any sense to me. It's like your talking gibberish.
It seems like everyone else things it fits into the lore just fine, is my point.
"Gamers will no longer buy the argument that every MMO requires a subscription fee to offset server and bandwidth costs. It's not true you know it, and they know it." Jeff Strain, co-founder of ArenaNet, 2007
WTF? No subscription fee?
I'm not saying in any way that GW2 has to change. I'm saying I don't like the way Clockpunk is currenlty implemented and gave an example of what changes would fix this. I'm not asking them to actually implement these changes.
What I'm arguing against is people calling my opinion about it wrong. What I'm arguing against is people calling everything ANet isn't doing as old-fashioned, boring and stupid.
Last I checked I didn't have to be a great fan of GW2 in order to comment on it. If I want to critisize GW2 I will, I don't expect them to change it. But as I said, I enjoy discussing things like this, so I will. I would however like to be given the basic respect of people not dismissing my opinion out of hand as wrong, close-minded, boring and stupid.
I think ( my very personal opinion ) that having knights in shining armor being allies with engineers with laser mines, tanks and automatic turrets is too much. You don't have to agree. ANet doesn't have to change anything. But I would like the respect of not being called wrong or boring for my personal taste in games.
Why is it so hard not to reply with this "Might I humbly suggest to those people that Guild Wars 2 simply isn't for you?" in the first place?
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Resistance is futile.
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Maybe that's why?
I could have, just maybe, different preferences as to what make immersive and believable fantasy worlds?
Why does what seems logical to you in a fantasy world have to be logical to me?
I think having steam tanks, batmobiles, laser mines and automatic turrets next to medieval knights is too much. Some basic engineering, sure. But the tanks and cars is going too far in my opinion. Even if you don't understand my line of reasoning why must it immediatly be 'wrong'?
I don't like it. I've tried to explain my reasons but apperantly they don't make sense to you. It happens. You could try explaining why you like cheese ( if you do ) but I doubt your reasons would make sense to me, I don't like cheese at all.
I don't like Steam tanks riding alongside medieval paladins. It doesn't fit, in my opinion. That's all it is.
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I am with Gobla here ! I have seen alot of people state their problem with the steampunk approach. And I have seen people whine ower it aswell. And I have seen alot of people going over the fence, in defending the descission that ArenaNet have made.
I personal find that there should be a place for mourning over the loss of a pure fantasy world, and if it not should be when the fackt of whats made instead is shown, I don't know when it should be!
I have prefered a no guns, no steampunk and no advanced tecknologi story. Though I was not that much on the fence with the guns.That is not to say that i dislike what ArenaNet are doing with steampunk, when that chocie is made. I think it's really well made, and I appriciate the art, the implementation and the feel of it. And I am looking forward to the playstyle the engineer is providing. And I know that steampunk will grow on me with time.
And I do hope that alot of people are really happy by the descission, enjoy it and are exsited about it. (because if not it would be a bad call by ArenaNet
...). But the purist in me needs time for Mourning.
And then i will be back wanting to be the first to capture a steampunk car and drive it in a big crash in to a big dragonboss, for the stunt of the year.... OH YEAH...
I see your point here, because technology just instantly replaces what was used before it. I mean look at our world I am sure you will never see an example of your metaphorical “Knight and Steam tank”. Oh wait!
Oh and those darn Germans using horse cavalry right next to the Tiger tank (arguably one of the best tanks ever built) during World War 2.
Darn pictures and facts of WW2 they screw up all logical theory discussions! Well I guess then let’s take a look at the car and how long it took for it to replace the horse and buggy that we can see in the picture. Since that might give us a realistic view of how long it would take the technology that the Charr created in GW2 to become main stream. In essence how long does it take for a new technology to replace old ideas like a medieval Knight?
Well then let’s get right into the heart of the matter! All technology goes through an S-curve where it first gets used by early adopters, usually around this time only about 10% of the population is using the new technology. Once a technology reaches the 10% market level it has gone through all of the obstacles of manufacturing and technical problems, not ever product invented reaches this point. With reaching 10% the masses learn more about the product and it sky rockets from 10% to 90%, in the same amount of time it took the product to go from idea to 10%. So if it took 7 years for the product to reach the level where 10% of its market is using it, then it will take another 7 years for the product to go from 10% to 90%. So now that the basics are out of the way, let’s take a more in depth look at the car.
In 1885 Karl Benz is credited with the invention of the modern automobile with the creation of the first gasoline engine. In 1908 Henry ford introduces the first mass produced car the model T. Then in the early 1910s the number of automobiles owned by consumers surpassed the number of horse and buggies, although the horse and buggies was still used into the 1920s. So with these facts, we can see that it took the car 23 years (1885 to 1908) to reach the 10% mark and to become accepted by the masses. Then over the next 23 years the car would have made the climb from 10% to 90% market penetration, in essence ending the era of the horse and buggy. With the 23 years it took the car to reach 10% it would have been common to see a horse and buggy right next to a car on the streets of the world.
Well now that we have all of these facts on our world, what can it show us about the world of GW2? First off we know from the interviews that the engineer is based off a new technology, since it is just barley spreading to the other races. So I think we can safely assume that it has not reached 10% market volume yet! So then would it be possible, with all the facts we know of our world, that a steam tank and Knight could fit logically into the same world. Well if the technology the Charr is inventing came in a rapid progression from guns to tanks to combat engineers in a few short years, then it would be possible because they would have not reached 10% and started replacing the old technology for the masses. For example that the Charr mines, turrets, and tanks have not reached 10% and been accepted by the masses yet. But let’s say in another 10 years all of these new technologies will reach the 10% level and then skyrocket to 90% over the next 10 years. During that 20 year time period the old technology that the races in GW2 use would be replaced, but during that first 10 years to get to 10% it would be common to see the old and new technology together. In our world that did not occur because the gun, tank, and the other technology were spread across decades. But does that really mean it could not have occurred in GW2 in a short time span, in affect making a Knight and a steam tank common to see. Of course like I said as the new technology advances it would eliminate the Knight and all the old technology, so it will be interesting to see what ANet does with Tryia over the next 100 years.
I think the facts of the technology S-curve and the time line of GW2 makes the steam tank and Knight riding besides each other completely logical. Since we are seeing new technology progressing and changing the world of GW2 in essence we are seeing the WW2 era in a fantasy world (tiger tank and horse calvary). Of course these facts do not need to change anyone’s point of view, anyone that does not like guns and steampunk can still not like it. But please do not say that your point of view is covered by logic, because from the example I just gave you logic can completely validate GW2.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horse_and_buggy
http://theos.in/technology/what-year-was-the-first-car-made/
http://innovationzen.com/blog/2006/08/17/innovation-management-theory-part-4/
http://howe.stevens.edu/fileadmin/Files/research/HSATM/newsletter/v08/v8i1/bowden.pdf
We are the bunny.
Resistance is futile.
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Not trying to be rude, but maybe reading through what I wrote and understand it would be a good idea before replaying.
I did say that, Gobla, in fact you've highlighted exactly the reason a world does not evolve in the way you seem to want. There are still people who cannot or refuse to use technology. Why is it so hard to believe that people who just learned about this stuff a few years ago wouldn't be using it? How is that "too much?" You've claimed logic, and you have claimed your preferences, but you have shown no actual reasoning.
AKASlaphappy pretty much slapped you silly with logic and evidence, and you refused to listen to any of it. I could say people using bows to kill animals doesn't fit, in my opinion, when people could be using guns. That doesn't make my opinion right. It just means I don't like what actually is, in the real world. I could say I don't think people riding horses doesn't fit when you have cars, but guess what?! People still do that. People also use bicycles. Many use them exclusively. Some people don't have televisions, and some don't use technology at all. In this era.
So how does it make less sense in a world where less-advanced technology is even newer, and where these "medieval knights" (which is a ridiculous characterization in any case), can actually block bullets? The short answer? It doesn't make less sense. It makes perfect sense. I am not saying you are not entitled to your opinion, and I am not going to try and get you to play GW2 (quite the contrary), but I would like you to either use some logic to make your points, or stop trying to say you don't like it being because it doesn't make sense. There is more than a hundred years of evidence in the real world that it does make sense.
Edit: Also, show me where Anet has said guardians or necromancers or whatever can use no engineering technology? Maybe they, like in the real world, can use things that require no special skills. Like the asura door in a pocket, or indoor plumbing.
"Gamers will no longer buy the argument that every MMO requires a subscription fee to offset server and bandwidth costs. It's not true you know it, and they know it." Jeff Strain, co-founder of ArenaNet, 2007
WTF? No subscription fee?
As I said, mostly sarcasm and a bit of annoyance was speaking. Hopefully it's clearer now.
EDIT: The point I'm making is not that there should be total technological equality ( which you can disprove by showing there is some inequality, which you did. ) The point I'm making is that there shouldn't total technological inequality either ( which you can disprove by showing that there's only inequality and no equality at all, which you didn't. )
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Resistance is futile.
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Also there is no magic in this world, if you shoot a guy once with a gun hes pretty much deaded, etc. etc. This comparison cannot be drawn and thinkign you can is silly. The question you should be asking is are guns that much more effective than the tools they are replacing in GW2 the answer is NO, therefore they will not come to fully replace the older technology untiul they are. Still use can be found for them, as they are effective.
"Society in every state is a blessing, but government even in its best state is but a necessary evil; in its worst state an intolerable one ..." - Thomas Paine
As I said in my other post there's gradient in the real world. It's not one extreme on one side and another on the other side. Most things are in between.
As of right now there aren't any technological abilities and/or weapon for the Guardian, Elementalist and Necromancer. So, currently, I don't think it's fitting. If they do introduce technological weapons/abilities then great thing, problem solved. But right now the gap is just too big.
Magic is a gradient. One one side is the warrior who uses nearly no magic but still has signets and for example mending. He's got a little bit. I can build a halfway magical warrior by giving him lots of signets, mending, a battle standard ( at least slightly magical if it can knock down enemies ) etc. and I can build a halfway martial elementalist by giving him dual wielding daggers, conjuring vapor blades, frost bows, lava axes etc.
They can't reach the other side of the magical extreme but each class, when build in a specific way, can go some way to bridge the gap.
When it comes to engineering half the classes do not, currently, have that option at all. And that doesn't make sense. That isn't logical. The real world isn't black and white like that, it's shades of grey.
We are the bunny.
Resistance is futile.
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Well there is a huge flaw with what you said here, that could have been easily avoided with a little research. Back in August of 2010 at Gamescom in Germany Arena Net revealed some of the different weapons you can get in the game. They talked about ghostly weapons that glow at night, clockwork weapons that collapse and expand, and icy weapons that shatter then reform. So if you are a technology minded Elementalist you can get a clockwork staff, if you are a technology minded Necromancer you can get a clockwork axe and focus, and if you are a technology minded Guardian you can get a clockwork mace and shield.
Well if you did not know better you might start thinking that ANet has people on staff that creates lore to help the world come alive. After all talking about clockwork weapons a full 9 months in front of the Engineer announcement might make you think that they know what they are doing.
T o think I made my little speech because I thought you knew your facts
This isn't Earth, this is Tyria. Combat Engineers are new. Not everbody is going to be using their technology. It doesn't matter how easy it is to throw a grenade or pull a trigger, caster's don't need those gadgets because their magic can do the same thing just as easily.
Stop using your own imaginary lore to justify a connection between casting classes and martial classes.
Didn't know that, which improves things a lot. Still would like to see actual engineering abilities.
And I'm not acitvely out to bash GW2 or the Engineer. As I've said nearly a dozen times in this thread this is a minor inconsequential issue that I enjoy discussing. Problems arise when people start misinterpreting my complaints of every class should have a little bit of technology as every class should be techno-wizards. You could have mentioned this in the first place instead of going about a tirade on human history how not everyone isn't absolutely equal, which I wasn't contesting anyway.
When I complain about not all professions having access to technology the best way really is to show that all classes do have access to technology instead of trying to prove that it's realistic that not all classes have access to technology. It really works a lot better.
But does knowing your facts seriously mean having to watch every single GW2 video ever released? I mean we're still talking about a game here right? Not the scientific study of Guild Wars 2? We're talking about a single 20 second fragment from a 45 minute video which is just one among thousands of videos.
But I guess I'll start adding disclaimers that I am in fact not all-knowing and my posts shouldn't be interpreted as such....
Anyway, for me that improves things a lot. I can only hope that they add some for of technological abilities equivalent to signets to all the professions to round things out. That would complete the picture.
We are the bunny.
Resistance is futile.
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For crying out loud...let this thread die already. All whats going on now is 2-3 people bickering back and forth. Okay you don't like the techie stuff, well suck it up because it's implemented. If ANet is gonna make changes it's sure as hell isn't gonna be based off one person on a non fan-affiliated site. People have made their point already on their views of the techie aspect of GW2.
Look, you've got your ideas of what amount of 'realism' is necessary in fantasy to make a believable world ( and yes, a certain amount of 'realism' is necesarry in fantasy otherwise it'll just be nonsense to us humans as we're still using a human perception. ) and I've got my ideas of what amount of 'realism' is need in fantasy.
I think such a gradient is needed in fantasy to make for a believable world. But as AKASlapHappy was kind enough to finally point out such a gradient exists anyway so you can rest easy knowing GW2 is still as perfect as an unspoiled virgin, until release that is ( and no, I'm not saying GW2 will fail it just won't be the second coming of christ ). And yes, that was sarcasm.
We are the bunny.
Resistance is futile.
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Hi, welcome to the forums. Here we like to discuss things about games. Anything really. None of it actually matters since, you know, they're just random opinions on the internet about random games. But we enjoy discussing things, which is why we come to the forums.
As long as there's people discussing things, whether it be bickering or not ( as long as no forum rules are broken ), this thread is doing exactly what it was meant to be doing. A place for people to share their opinions. And it doesn't actually matter what you, or anyone besides the forum staff, thinks of those opinions.
If you want the thread to die the best thing really is to not keep it alive by replying. If the thread's bothering you then the best thing really is not to view it in the first place.
We are the bunny.
Resistance is futile.
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When did I ever mention realism? I hate realism in games. I play games for escapism. I just want the games I play to make sense using at least rudimentary logic. This isn't Earth, this is Tyria. Just because it did or didn't happen on Earth or could or couldn't happen on Earth doesn't mean it will or won't or can or can't happen on Tyria. Making those connections is stupid.
gw2 engineer..i am indifferent because i havn't played it yet
Rudimentary logic is your requirement. Mine are a bit higher. Why is that stupid?
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Resistance is futile.
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