Apparently they have. Either you are trying to reveal flaws in GW2's lore or you forgot what you said earlier. There is no point in debating this with you anymore. You ran out of arguments and now are completely contradicting yourself just to keep this going.
Engineers using magic does not equal other professions using engineering.....
No. But it does equal engineers using magic. Something you said they don't do.
I guess from immersion perspective, that depends on the usage of said technology/magic and how much training you need to be able to use it. Why use it if it isnt better then what you replace it with? You keep ignoring that obvious reason. One can assume that engineering isnt more powerfull then magic in GW1 or 2.
A mine doesnt have to be more powerfull then a ranger trap. A rifle not more then a sword. So whats your point? Its not real life otherwise guns would be instant kill if aimed well and meteor showers would instantly kill a whole group.
My point is that even if engineering isn't more powerfull then magic, swords or bows there must still be some minor thing it's better at.
All magical classes can use daggers. Necromancers even use axes. Guardians use wands. All classes use magical signets. Why aren't they using some minor technological trick to fill a void somewhere? A pistol could come in handy for a magical class against magically resistant enemies? Some sort of clockwork device like signets that all classes have which after a few seconds unleashes some fitting effect?
I think they should just add a little something to show that Engineers are connected to the rest of the world. That we're living in a changing world where technology is rearing it's head.
We are the bunny. Resistance is futile. ''/\/\'''''/\/\''''''/\/\ ( o.o) ( o.o) ( o.o) (")("),,(")("),(")(")
You are asking a question which has already been answered. I'm done debating over this with you. Why would an elementalist use a mine when it can use a meteor swarm? Why would a Guardian use a gun when it already long range spells that are just as effective. Why would a necromancer use turrets when it has minions?
You keep asking why the other professions didn't evolve with technology. The answer is easy. Evolution for them wasn't necessary. Natural evolution only occurs from necessity or when there is something better. Technology isn't necessary for the other professions and it isn't any better than anything they can do already. Why would they evolve when they don't need to?
P.S. The Guardian is a major evolution from the Paragon and protection Monk.
Evolution also occurs to make things easier. Humanity ( as a species ) was surviving just fine in the stone age. Yet our culture and technology still evolved to make things easier.
Why aren't Elementalists using some extremely minor steam device that makes their life easier? Just a little thing to show that at some point in time this crazy thing happened where an Engineer and an Elementalist actually talked to each other and communicated. Something like a signet but instead of magic-based it's engineering-based.
Something like that would occur in a natural world. The fact that it hasn't makes the whole Engineering aspect feel ducktaped on to me.
We are the bunny. Resistance is futile. ''/\/\'''''/\/\''''''/\/\ ( o.o) ( o.o) ( o.o) (")("),,(")("),(")(")
Maybe engineering is uncivilised. ( LOL ) Again we are talking about people that never figured out how to ride an animal. Give them another 300 years and maybe they will figure out that magic users can combine magic and engineering.
Best point made yet. To you, good sir, I concede. Human stupidity is a pretty good and believable argument ( as I myself am no doubt the proof of ).
We are the bunny. Resistance is futile. ''/\/\'''''/\/\''''''/\/\ ( o.o) ( o.o) ( o.o) (")("),,(")("),(")(")
I think they should just add a little something to show that Engineers are connected to the rest of the world. That we're living in a changing world where technology is rearing it's head.
You are asking a question which has already been answered. I'm done debating over this with you. Why would an elementalist use a mine when it can use a meteor swarm? Why would a Guardian use a gun when it already long range spells that are just as effective. Why would a necromancer use turrets when it has minions?
You keep asking why the other professions didn't evolve with technology. The answer is easy. Evolution for them wasn't necessary. Natural evolution only occurs from necessity or when there is something better. Technology isn't necessary for the other professions and it isn't any better than anything they can do already. Why would they evolve when they don't need to?
P.S. The Guardian is a major evolution from the Paragon and protection Monk.
Evolution also occurs to make things easier. Humanity ( as a species ) was surviving just fine in the stone age. Yet our culture and technology still evolved to make things easier.
Why aren't Elementalists using some extremely minor steam device that makes their life easier? Just a little thing to show that at some point in time this crazy thing happened where an Engineer and an Elementalist actually talked to each other and communicated. Something like a signet but instead of magic-based it's engineering-based.
Something like that would occur in a natural world. The fact that it hasn't make the whole Engineering aspect feel ducktaped on to me.
Why would they use technology when it isn't better than anything they can do already? Sure an Engineer and an Elementalist can talk, but what would the Elementalist gain out of it?
Bombs? They can throw fireballs and bring meteors down on their enemies.
Traps? They can freeze people or hold them in place with earth spells.
I don't see anything that an Engineer's technology can do that makes it necessary or even useful to another profession. The other professions wouldn't use technology if it doesn't have a use for them, and it doesn't.
Why would they use technology when it isn't better than anything they can do already? Sure an Engineer and an Elementalist can talk, but what would the Elementalist gain out of it?
Bombs? They can throw fireballs and bring meteors down on their enemies.
Traps? They can freeze people or hold them in place with earth spells.
I don't see anything that an Engineer's technology can do that makes it necessary or even useful to another profession. The other professions wouldn't use technology if it doesn't have a use for them, and it doesn't.
Grenades could be used while silenced.
Pistols don't take physical strength but still deal physical and not magical damage for use against magically resistant things.
Some minor clockwork device could provide small bonuses without it costing any energy or effort on the user's part.
Minor engineering gadgets are less likely to be countered by mesmers.
Something minor for much the same reason Elementalists use daggers and Necromancers use axes.
We are the bunny. Resistance is futile. ''/\/\'''''/\/\''''''/\/\ ( o.o) ( o.o) ( o.o) (")("),,(")("),(")(")
It is unfortunate that people are stuck in their pure fantasy illusions and are not into evolution like the designers of GW are. I personally never took GW to be the traditional fantasy mainly because I could only play humans and there were no orcs to be seen. The game just feels different and this is one of the reasons I can see an engineer and not be broken out of immersion (until they drop a beeping mine that is, although I'm going to assume the asurans helped them develop the mine so it could beep hehe).
Anyways, what I'm saying is, you guys who don't find this fits into this world should get out of your logical comfort zone and accept the evolution of the game world and accept that it is quite different from how you feel it should play out.
gobla, you keep using Guardians being medieval as opposed to the Engineer being "too advanced" for the game setting as your argument, and I understand your position (I'm not too big of a fan of the Engineer's mines), but there's really a simple answer as to why the Guardian is still around and why he doesn't use guns:
Why would someone who can stop bullets with a wave of his hand, producing an omni-directional anti-projectile shield of holy faith, smite foes from a distance, and who has the ability to teleport/phase through the air to a far away target and cut them down with a two-handed sword as large as they are tall in the space of a second ever need engineering to aid them in their battles? You mentioned a "holy hand grenade" sort of thing, why does a Guardian need that when s/he can shoot balls of exploding light out of a scepter that home on their target? The same can be said of classes like the Elementalist or Necromancer. They can rain death from above or below on their enemies, why would they need guns or bombs when a meteor or suicide bombing minion could do the same job?
In all truth it makes sense why the Engineer arose in that its a distinctly CHARR creation. Having both forsaken magic and gods, and their only route being technology, it makes absolute sense why they would produce such a profession. And as to why some people among other races where divine or magical power are more prominent take up the engineer's role? The answer is really simple: "lack of talent" you could call it. Not all people are created equally in their talents, otherwise every single person in every single fantasy setting would be the most powerful "class" available (usually a mage).
I get what you're saying but the problem I see is that you basically have a huge split in the explanation for the world and the world itself.
So Charr invented Engineering because they turned away from magic and gods. Cool, I can get with that. They needed an alternative for the things magic can do so they went with Engineering. Logical. Then there's untalented individuals from other species learning the Engineering trade to still be a valueable member of society, sure thing.
Yet in-game there will be thousands of Charr elementalists, necromancers, guardians etc. All these Charr that were supposedly raised in this technological culture where Engineering is the ultimate art can't do any Engineering at all?
In-game the most magical races will also have thousands of Engineers. These individuals, now matter how untalented, that were raised in this highly magical culture where everything is created through magic can't think of any ways at all to combine magic and engineering?
In a believable world Engineering wouldn't just stop at the Charr border. It would seep through and influence the rest of the world.
Magic is integrated. Engineers have the Absorb skill which means that even though they aren't Magicians themselves they do recognise the existance of magic and use it. Warriors use magical signets and have the Mending ability even though they don't have any/much magical talent themselves. Every class uses some form of magic. Every culture in GW2 recognises the existance of magic and uses it.
Engineering is not integrated. Thiefs and Warriors can use some fire-arms but nothing more and all the other classes are acting like it doesn't even exist. Sylvari culture looks like it hasn't ever even seen Engineering.
You see the problem with that is that no matter how much a developer constructs his or her lore, players will always break it. There are those of us who like to keep things in the way they are "supposed" to be: i.e. you won't see many of those types of people running around with Norn thieves, for example. And then there are others who are perfectly content to play one. Not to mention you're bringing up something of a glass-half full argument from my perspective. Sure there will be thousands of engineers running around from other races, but in a word that houses, supposedly, hundreds of thousands, if not millions, aren't those mere thousands in the minority? Among, say 1 million non-Charrs, if there are only 1 thousand engineers in that demographic, isn't that a really small fraction of the actual population? It makes sense that there will be at least that many people among other races interested in new technology and such.
Also, like someone said earlier, until very very recently in GW history, the Charr had been enemies of everyone but the Norn who, by nature, are drawn to "the hunt" and the wild, and were thus much less likely to absorb Charr technology in any great amount, not to mention they weren't really in an alliance of any sort where they were trading information and whatnot. To the rest of the world the Charr have had relatively little influence whatsoever. Hell, the only human city where the Charr are not frowned upon or outright kicked out of is Lions Arch which is more of a melting pot of cultures anyway. It's very unlikely that Charr influence has spread very far outside Charr borders due to the influence of Jormag, making half of the Shiverpeaks nigh impassable, as well as the natural barrier it posed anyway. If you bring it into historical terms of the Earth, despite the Japanese being so close to China and Korea and the presence of minor trade between them thousands of years ago. It took Japan significantly (in the hundreds of years here) longer to develop horsemanship and horseback riding than China or Korea, largely due to the barrier both cultural and topographical barriers (the sea). I know I'm taking things way out of context here, but if you're going to apply real-world cross-cultural globalization to a video game, you have to take a look at how the same process occurred historically.
And about the Sylvari? It makes complete sense for them to be Engineers. They aren't of the tree-hugging nature like the so many iterations of "wood elves" (which I'm not saying they are) we've seen before. A race 20 years old and, by nature fiendishly curious, is more likely to embrace new ideas and whatnot than Krytans (very set in their divine culture and hatred of the Charr).
Another thing: Engineers do not use magic. That absorb skill is very likely alchemical in nature.
It sorta irks me a bit. I was expecting a gunner class, so the idea of using tech was't entirely surprising, but turrets? Grenades? I dunno. I guess maybe it's just a bit jarring. I'll probably be happier with the class when they tie it into the lore more. Right now I think it's a bit of a stretch. Sorta like those tanks from the Charr flyover.
Why would they use technology when it isn't better than anything they can do already? Sure an Engineer and an Elementalist can talk, but what would the Elementalist gain out of it?
Bombs? They can throw fireballs and bring meteors down on their enemies.
Traps? They can freeze people or hold them in place with earth spells.
I don't see anything that an Engineer's technology can do that makes it necessary or even useful to another profession. The other professions wouldn't use technology if it doesn't have a use for them, and it doesn't.
Grenades could be used while silenced.
Pistols don't take physical strength but still deal physical and not magical damage for use against magically resistant things.
Some minor clockwork device could provide small bonuses without it costing any energy or effort on the user's part.
Minor engineering gadgets are less likely to be countered by mesmers.
Something minor for much the same reason Elementalists use daggers and Necromancers use axes.
No silenced condition in the game. Any condition that can cause a caster to stop fighting will do the same to any other profession.
I'm pretty sure there isn't any magic resistance either. There is only the boon Protection.
The minor clockwork device will cause energy or it isn't class specific. If it doesn't cost energy then it is a consumable and can be used by anyone.
Mesmer isn't confirmed to be in the game. And even if it is we know nothing about it so this argument is useless and invalid.
Elementalists use daggers and Necromancers use axes as foci for their spells. The only technological thing that would make sense as a spell focus would be a gun and that would just be impractical as they already have plenty of spells that they can use the could be used with a gun. There would simply be too many redundant spells that are already covered by a different weapon.
You see the problem with that is that no matter how much a developer constructs his or her lore, players will always break it. There are those of us who like to keep things in the way they are "supposed" to be: i.e. you won't see many of those types of people running around with Norn thieves, for example. And then there are others who are perfectly content to play one. Not to mention you're bringing up something of a glass-half full argument from my perspective. Sure there will be thousands of engineers running around from other races, but in a word that houses, supposedly, hundreds of thousands, if not millions, aren't those mere thousands in the minority? Among, say 1 million non-Charrs, if there are only 1 thousand engineers in that demographic, isn't that a really small fraction of the actual population? It makes sense that there will be at least that many people among other races interested in new technology and such.
Also, like someone said earlier, until very very recently in GW history, the Charr had been enemies of everyone but the Norn who, by nature, are drawn to "the hunt" and the wild, and were thus much less likely to absorb Charr technology in any great amount, not to mention they weren't really in an alliance of any sort where they were trading information and whatnot. To the rest of the world the Charr have had relatively little influence whatsoever. Hell, the only human city where the Charr are not frowned upon or outright kicked out of is Lions Arch which is more of a melting pot of cultures anyway. It's very unlikely that Charr influence has spread very far outside Charr borders due to the influence of Jormag, making half of the Shiverpeaks nigh impassable, as well as the natural barrier it posed anyway. If you bring it into historical terms of the Earth, despite the Japanese being so close to China and Korea and the presence of minor trade between them thousands of years ago. It took Japan significantly (in the hundreds of years here) longer to develop horsemanship and horseback riding than China or Korea, largely due to the barrier both cultural and topographical barriers (the sea). I know I'm taking things way out of context here, but if you're going to apply real-world cross-cultural globalization to a video game, you have to take a look at how the same process occurred historically.
And about the Sylvari? It makes complete sense for them to be Engineers. They aren't of the tree-hugging nature like the so many iterations of "wood elves" (which I'm not saying they are) we've seen before. A race 20 years old and, by nature fiendishly curious, is more likely to embrace new ideas and whatnot than Krytans (very set in their divine culture and hatred of the Charr).
Another thing: Engineers do not use magic. That absorb skill is very likely alchemical in nature.
This is basically what my gripe comes down to. That it's so possible for players to break the lore.
In-game you'll see Charr in all areas of the map. In-game you'll see Engineers mixing with all other professions freely. In-game you'll see everyone visiting the Charr homelands. If it's possible to use those tanks etc. in some events then you'll see professions who've never used engineering of any kinds suddenly driving steam vehicles like pros. Yet all that isn't supposed to happen according to the lore.
Imho a good lore is a lore that supports the gameplay in all it's forms. If it's possible to break the lore so badly then it's a bad lore to begin with.
All professions in-game will have free contact with Engineers. All professions will likely come into contact with many engineering contraptions during dynamic event. Because of this all professions should have access to some engineering related abilities. Because that way the lore and gameplay match.
We are the bunny. Resistance is futile. ''/\/\'''''/\/\''''''/\/\ ( o.o) ( o.o) ( o.o) (")("),,(")("),(")(")
You see the problem with that is that no matter how much a developer constructs his or her lore, players will always break it. There are those of us who like to keep things in the way they are "supposed" to be: i.e. you won't see many of those types of people running around with Norn thieves, for example. And then there are others who are perfectly content to play one. Not to mention you're bringing up something of a glass-half full argument from my perspective. Sure there will be thousands of engineers running around from other races, but in a word that houses, supposedly, hundreds of thousands, if not millions, aren't those mere thousands in the minority? Among, say 1 million non-Charrs, if there are only 1 thousand engineers in that demographic, isn't that a really small fraction of the actual population? It makes sense that there will be at least that many people among other races interested in new technology and such.
Also, like someone said earlier, until very very recently in GW history, the Charr had been enemies of everyone but the Norn who, by nature, are drawn to "the hunt" and the wild, and were thus much less likely to absorb Charr technology in any great amount, not to mention they weren't really in an alliance of any sort where they were trading information and whatnot. To the rest of the world the Charr have had relatively little influence whatsoever. Hell, the only human city where the Charr are not frowned upon or outright kicked out of is Lions Arch which is more of a melting pot of cultures anyway. It's very unlikely that Charr influence has spread very far outside Charr borders due to the influence of Jormag, making half of the Shiverpeaks nigh impassable, as well as the natural barrier it posed anyway. If you bring it into historical terms of the Earth, despite the Japanese being so close to China and Korea and the presence of minor trade between them thousands of years ago. It took Japan significantly (in the hundreds of years here) longer to develop horsemanship and horseback riding than China or Korea, largely due to the barrier both cultural and topographical barriers (the sea). I know I'm taking things way out of context here, but if you're going to apply real-world cross-cultural globalization to a video game, you have to take a look at how the same process occurred historically.
And about the Sylvari? It makes complete sense for them to be Engineers. They aren't of the tree-hugging nature like the so many iterations of "wood elves" (which I'm not saying they are) we've seen before. A race 20 years old and, by nature fiendishly curious, is more likely to embrace new ideas and whatnot than Krytans (very set in their divine culture and hatred of the Charr).
Another thing: Engineers do not use magic. That absorb skill is very likely alchemical in nature.
This is basically what my gripe comes down to. That it's so possible for players to break the lore.
In-game you'll see Charr in all areas of the map. In-game you'll see Engineers mixing with all other professions freely. In-game you'll see everyone visiting the Charr homelands. If it's possible to use those tanks etc. in some events then you'll see professions who've never used engineering of any kinds suddenly driving steam vehicles like pros. Yet all that isn't supposed to happen according to the lore.
Imho a good lore is a lore that supports the gameplay in all it's forms. If it's possible to break the lore so badly then it's a bad lore to begin with.
All professions in-game will have free contact with Engineers. All professions will likely come into contact with many engineering contraptions during dynamic event. Because of this all professions should have access to some engineering related abilities. Because that way the lore and gameplay match.
I don't want to sound combative, but could you give me an example of an MMO where lore retains integrity despite players meddling with it? And though they are breaking the lore I encourage you to think about it in regards to population statistics like I mentioned in the post you quoted. Even though there will be thousands of characters "breaking" the lore, in relation to the overall population it will be a relatively small number. This, in my opinion, kind of keeps the lore intact to some degree.
No silenced condition in the game. Any condition that can cause a caster to stop fighting will do the same to any other profession.
I'm pretty sure there isn't any magic resistance either. There is only the boon Protection.
The minor clockwork device will cause energy or it isn't class specific. If it doesn't cost energy then it is a consumable and can be used by anyone.
Mesmer isn't confirmed to be in the game. And even if it is we know nothing about it so this argument is useless and invalid.
Elementalists use daggers and Necromancers use axes as foci for their spells. The only technological thing that would make sense as a spell focus would be a gun and that would just be impractical as they already have plenty of spells that they can use the could be used with a gun. There would simply be too many redundant spells that are already covered by a different weapon.
I'm mostly talking about lore, not gameplay. Lorewise silence does exist. Lorewise elemental and physical resistance does exist ( see GW1 mesmer mantras ). Lorewise Mesmers do exist. Lorewise Elementalists living with Engineers would sometimes use some minor engineering gadgets. And a good lore is reflected in the gameplay.
And I'm pretty sure signets are class specific and don't cost energy.
Look, this is only a minor gripe. In the large scale of things totally insignificant. But it's one I enjoy discussing.
We are the bunny. Resistance is futile. ''/\/\'''''/\/\''''''/\/\ ( o.o) ( o.o) ( o.o) (")("),,(")("),(")(")
I don't want to sound combative, but could you give me an example of an MMO where lore retains integrity despite players meddling with it? And though they are breaking the lore I encourage you to think about it in regards to population statistics like I mentioned in the post you quoted. Even though there will be thousands of characters "breaking" the lore, in relation to the overall population it will be a relatively small number. This, in my opinion, kind of keeps the lore intact to some degree.
EvE does a pretty good job at it.
And I understand that statistically there's millions of inhabitants. But I like to think the gameplay represents the lore. So if 80% of all Charr ( both players and NPCs ) aren't engineers in-game then, imho, 80% of all Charr shouldn't be Engineers in the lore.
But yeah, most MMOs botch up the lore pretty badly. Which imho is a shame. I'd love to see a truly immersive MMO.
Again this is, on the larger scale of things, totally unimportant. But I enjoy discussing the interaction between lore and gameplay and I find it interesting to discuss this case where, in my feelings, the lore was just so horribly broken and pinpointing where exactly this break occured and what possible solutions there are.
We are the bunny. Resistance is futile. ''/\/\'''''/\/\''''''/\/\ ( o.o) ( o.o) ( o.o) (")("),,(")("),(")(")
No silenced condition in the game. Any condition that can cause a caster to stop fighting will do the same to any other profession.
I'm pretty sure there isn't any magic resistance either. There is only the boon Protection.
The minor clockwork device will cause energy or it isn't class specific. If it doesn't cost energy then it is a consumable and can be used by anyone.
Mesmer isn't confirmed to be in the game. And even if it is we know nothing about it so this argument is useless and invalid.
Elementalists use daggers and Necromancers use axes as foci for their spells. The only technological thing that would make sense as a spell focus would be a gun and that would just be impractical as they already have plenty of spells that they can use the could be used with a gun. There would simply be too many redundant spells that are already covered by a different weapon.
I'm mostly talking about lore, not gameplay. Lorewise silence does exist. Lorewise elemental and physical resistance does exist ( see GW1 mesmer mantras ). Lorewise Mesmers do exist. Lorewise Elementalists living with Engineers would sometimes use some minor engineering gadgets. And a good lore is reflected in the gameplay.
And I'm pretty sure signets are class specific and don't cost energy.
Look, this is only a minor gripe. In the large scale of things totally insignificant. But it's one I enjoy discussing.
You are making this up. There is no lore to support it. And even if there was there is no lore supporting an elementalist using gadgets in combat. Only Charr and Asura racial skills do that.
You also never mentioned signets in your previous post. You only mentioned minor gadgets.
"Some minor clockwork device could provide small bonuses without it costing any energy or effort on the user's part.
Minor engineering gadgets are less likely to be countered by mesmers."
You are making this up. There is no lore to support it. And even if there was there is no lore supporting an elementalist using gadgets in combat. Only Charr and Asura racial skills do that.
You also never mentioned signets in your previous post. You only mentioned minor gadgets.
"Some minor clockwork device could provide small bonuses without it costing any energy or effort on the user's part.
Minor engineering gadgets are less likely to be countered by mesmers."
Signets aren't minor gadgets.
In several of my earlier posts I suggested introducing some minor clockwork device that worked much like signets do.
But I'm sorry, I shouldn't expect forum-users to actually read all the posts in a topic before replying.
Lorewise I'm not just referring to the explicit lore written by ANet. I'm also referring to what would logically follow out of that lore. ANet doesn't need to explicitly define gravity for it to be present in the lore. ANet doesn't need to explicitly define that it's possible for two sentient being to share and trade ideas and items.
We are the bunny. Resistance is futile. ''/\/\'''''/\/\''''''/\/\ ( o.o) ( o.o) ( o.o) (")("),,(")("),(")(")
I don't want to sound combative, but could you give me an example of an MMO where lore retains integrity despite players meddling with it? And though they are breaking the lore I encourage you to think about it in regards to population statistics like I mentioned in the post you quoted. Even though there will be thousands of characters "breaking" the lore, in relation to the overall population it will be a relatively small number. This, in my opinion, kind of keeps the lore intact to some degree.
EvE does a pretty good job at it.
And I understand that statistically there's millions of inhabitants. But I like to think the gameplay represents the lore. So if 80% of all Charr ( both players and NPCs ) aren't engineers in-game then, imho, 80% of all Charr shouldn't be Engineers in the lore.
But yeah, most MMOs botch up the lore pretty badly. Which imho is a shame. I'd love to see a truly immersive MMO.
Again this is, on the larger scale of things, totally unimportant. But I enjoy discussing the interaction between lore and gameplay and I find it interesting to discuss this case where, in my feelings, the lore was just so horribly broken and pinpointing where exactly this break occured and what possible solutions there are.
Well the thing is 80% of the Charr AREN'T engineers . Engineering was developed and is used mostly by the Iron Legion, just 1/3 of the total population of Charr, and in reality I doubt 100% of that 33% of the total Charr population (NPCs here) are even Engineers. I'm guessing of the total population only as much as 20% of them are Engineers, and that's just a guestimate.
Edit: And I'd say EVE is quite a different game from Guild Wars 2, or any fantasy-based game for that matter..
Well the thing is 80% of the Charr AREN'T engineers . Engineering was developed and is used mostly by the Iron Legion, just 1/3 of the total population of Charr, and in reality I doubt 100% of that 33% of the total Charr population (NPCs here) are even Engineers. I'm guessing of the total population only as much as 20% of them are Engineers, and that's just a guestimate.
But that would also follow that since likely at least 10% of all Charr will be guardians that 10% of all lore Charr are also Guardians. If 20% of all Charr are necromancers then 20% of all lore Charr should also be necromancers. Even though they apperantly mistrust magic so much.
Originally posted by DarkResin
Edit: And I'd say EVE is quite a different game from Guild Wars 2, or any fantasy-based game for that matter..
It is without a doubt. But it is an MMO in which the lore is pretty accurate to the gameplay.
Main point is that you first create the gameplay. Then the lore. Not the other way around.
EvE was made like a FFA sandbox. FFA sandboxes are unforgiving. So EvE's lore portrays an unforgiving universe.
A themepark features thousands/millions of adventurers of all possible race-class combinations killing enemies all the time. So the lore should reflect a population which is 90% adventurer of all possible combinations.
We are the bunny. Resistance is futile. ''/\/\'''''/\/\''''''/\/\ ( o.o) ( o.o) ( o.o) (")("),,(")("),(")(")
I can quote this all day long. Combat engineers are still new. I don't see a reason why any other professions need technology when they have their own equally powerful ways to cause destruction. Especially when the technology is still new to them. And your arguments for the Ranger and the Guardian are completely stupid. Silver bullets is the best you can come up with?
You can continue quoting it all day long.
Silver bullets where the first thing that popped into my mind. I'm sure you can think of some better way of combining guardian abilities and blackpowder, shouldn't be hard.
Engineering has been along long enough for tanks, cars, turrets, mines etc. The concept of blackpowder has, as many stated, been around since GW1. If the world is evolving in such a technological direction for those past 300 years why haven't the other professions evolved with it?
You've basically got the Engineer which has evolved for 300 years. The warrior and thief that changed a little bit. And the elementalist, necromancer, ranger and guardian which haven't changed in any way whatsoever regardless of the changes in the world around them with no explanation given.
Apparently they have. Either you are trying to reveal flaws in GW2's lore or you forgot what you said earlier. There is no point in debating this with you anymore. You ran out of arguments and now are completely contradicting yourself just to keep this going.
Engineers using magic does not equal other professions using engineering.....
Your warrior example in an earlier hit the nail on the head and you proved other posters point with it. Its not just a case of being able to use magic or use engineering techniques. But to what extent can you use it? Its the point of being able to use it to be efficient with it. That a warrior can use a relative simple spell like mending, still makes him an inefficient magic user. Any high energy spell or one that exhausts him,makes him less efficient. He cant even use mending with the same regeneration as a monk can. And in Guild Wars 1 its only even possible for him to use it because of DUAL professions. Its his second prof monk that lets him use it. Guild Wars 2 doesnt have dual professions.
This is the whole point of having professions. It is so obvious that professions is about specialising and you keep ignoring it. The profession determines what you can use efficiently and you can make up any reason for it from an immersive point of view.
Ill have a go. Engineering makes use of unstable combustable and flammable items that are only safe in the hands of a trained engineer. There you go, your reason why the others dont have access to it. They were too busy training martial weapons and/or magic.
Anet chose to work with different specialisations (professions). You are now basically argueing against it.
Well the thing is 80% of the Charr AREN'T engineers . Engineering was developed and is used mostly by the Iron Legion, just 1/3 of the total population of Charr, and in reality I doubt 100% of that 33% of the total Charr population (NPCs here) are even Engineers. I'm guessing of the total population only as much as 20% of them are Engineers, and that's just a guestimate.
But that would also follow that since likely at least 10% of all Charr will be guardians that 10% of all lore Charr are also Guardians. If 20% of all Charr are necromancers then 20% of all lore Charr should also be necromancers. Even though they apperantly mistrust magic so much.
-sigh- You make a good point. Honestly we'll have to just wait and see how many in-game Charr Guardian and Necromancer NPCs there are. ANET have said that there won't be MANY of these individuals, but there will definitely be some of them.
Well the thing is 80% of the Charr AREN'T engineers . Engineering was developed and is used mostly by the Iron Legion, just 1/3 of the total population of Charr, and in reality I doubt 100% of that 33% of the total Charr population (NPCs here) are even Engineers. I'm guessing of the total population only as much as 20% of them are Engineers, and that's just a guestimate.
But that would also follow that since likely at least 10% of all Charr will be guardians that 10% of all lore Charr are also Guardians. If 20% of all Charr are necromancers then 20% of all lore Charr should also be necromancers. Even though they apperantly mistrust magic so much.
-sigh- You make a good point. Honestly we'll have to just wait and see how many in-game Charr Guardian and Necromancer NPCs there are. ANET have said that there won't be MANY of these individuals, but there will definitely be some of them.
There actually won't be ANY Charr NPC Guardians. Jeff Grubb said this in an interview. I don't know about other caster professions but I think it would be safe to say there will be very few if any at all.
Your warrior example in an earlier hit the nail on the head and you proved other posters point with it. Its not just a case of being able to use magic or use engineering techniques. But to what extent can you use it? Its the point of being able to use it to be efficient with it. That a warrior can use a relative simple spell like mending, still makes him an inefficient magic user. Any high energy spell or one that exhausts him,makes him less efficient. He cant even use mending with the same regeneration as a monk can. And in Guild Wars 1 its only even possible for him to use it because of DUAL professions. Its his second prof monk that lets him use it. Guild Wars 2 doesnt have dual professions.
This is the whole point of having professions. It is so obvious that professions is about specialising and you keep ignoring it. The profession determines what you can use efficiently and you can make up any reason for it from an immersive point of view.
Ill have a go. Engineering makes use of unstable combustable and flammable items that are only safe in the hands of a trained engineer. There you go, your reason why the others dont have access to it. They were too busy training martial weapons and/or magic.
Anet chose to work with different specialisations (professions). You are now basically argueing against it.
So then since non-Engineers can't use any Engineering contraptions we'll not see any Dynamic Events in which Elementalists are using steamtanks? Or any rangers using blackpowder kegs?
And since it's so dangerous Engineers will occasionally misfire and blow themselves up?
How do propose to keep things like that reasonable from an immersive point of view?
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No. But it does equal engineers using magic. Something you said they don't do.
My point is that even if engineering isn't more powerfull then magic, swords or bows there must still be some minor thing it's better at.
All magical classes can use daggers. Necromancers even use axes. Guardians use wands. All classes use magical signets. Why aren't they using some minor technological trick to fill a void somewhere? A pistol could come in handy for a magical class against magically resistant enemies? Some sort of clockwork device like signets that all classes have which after a few seconds unleashes some fitting effect?
I think they should just add a little something to show that Engineers are connected to the rest of the world. That we're living in a changing world where technology is rearing it's head.
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Evolution also occurs to make things easier. Humanity ( as a species ) was surviving just fine in the stone age. Yet our culture and technology still evolved to make things easier.
Why aren't Elementalists using some extremely minor steam device that makes their life easier? Just a little thing to show that at some point in time this crazy thing happened where an Engineer and an Elementalist actually talked to each other and communicated. Something like a signet but instead of magic-based it's engineering-based.
Something like that would occur in a natural world. The fact that it hasn't makes the whole Engineering aspect feel ducktaped on to me.
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Best point made yet. To you, good sir, I concede. Human stupidity is a pretty good and believable argument ( as I myself am no doubt the proof of ).
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I think that's already been achieved.
My theme song.
Why would they use technology when it isn't better than anything they can do already? Sure an Engineer and an Elementalist can talk, but what would the Elementalist gain out of it?
Bombs? They can throw fireballs and bring meteors down on their enemies.
Traps? They can freeze people or hold them in place with earth spells.
I don't see anything that an Engineer's technology can do that makes it necessary or even useful to another profession. The other professions wouldn't use technology if it doesn't have a use for them, and it doesn't.
I really liked it.
Grenades could be used while silenced.
Pistols don't take physical strength but still deal physical and not magical damage for use against magically resistant things.
Some minor clockwork device could provide small bonuses without it costing any energy or effort on the user's part.
Minor engineering gadgets are less likely to be countered by mesmers.
Something minor for much the same reason Elementalists use daggers and Necromancers use axes.
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It is unfortunate that people are stuck in their pure fantasy illusions and are not into evolution like the designers of GW are. I personally never took GW to be the traditional fantasy mainly because I could only play humans and there were no orcs to be seen. The game just feels different and this is one of the reasons I can see an engineer and not be broken out of immersion (until they drop a beeping mine that is, although I'm going to assume the asurans helped them develop the mine so it could beep hehe).
Anyways, what I'm saying is, you guys who don't find this fits into this world should get out of your logical comfort zone and accept the evolution of the game world and accept that it is quite different from how you feel it should play out.
This is not a game.
You see the problem with that is that no matter how much a developer constructs his or her lore, players will always break it. There are those of us who like to keep things in the way they are "supposed" to be: i.e. you won't see many of those types of people running around with Norn thieves, for example. And then there are others who are perfectly content to play one. Not to mention you're bringing up something of a glass-half full argument from my perspective. Sure there will be thousands of engineers running around from other races, but in a word that houses, supposedly, hundreds of thousands, if not millions, aren't those mere thousands in the minority? Among, say 1 million non-Charrs, if there are only 1 thousand engineers in that demographic, isn't that a really small fraction of the actual population? It makes sense that there will be at least that many people among other races interested in new technology and such.
Also, like someone said earlier, until very very recently in GW history, the Charr had been enemies of everyone but the Norn who, by nature, are drawn to "the hunt" and the wild, and were thus much less likely to absorb Charr technology in any great amount, not to mention they weren't really in an alliance of any sort where they were trading information and whatnot. To the rest of the world the Charr have had relatively little influence whatsoever. Hell, the only human city where the Charr are not frowned upon or outright kicked out of is Lions Arch which is more of a melting pot of cultures anyway. It's very unlikely that Charr influence has spread very far outside Charr borders due to the influence of Jormag, making half of the Shiverpeaks nigh impassable, as well as the natural barrier it posed anyway. If you bring it into historical terms of the Earth, despite the Japanese being so close to China and Korea and the presence of minor trade between them thousands of years ago. It took Japan significantly (in the hundreds of years here) longer to develop horsemanship and horseback riding than China or Korea, largely due to the barrier both cultural and topographical barriers (the sea). I know I'm taking things way out of context here, but if you're going to apply real-world cross-cultural globalization to a video game, you have to take a look at how the same process occurred historically.
And about the Sylvari? It makes complete sense for them to be Engineers. They aren't of the tree-hugging nature like the so many iterations of "wood elves" (which I'm not saying they are) we've seen before. A race 20 years old and, by nature fiendishly curious, is more likely to embrace new ideas and whatnot than Krytans (very set in their divine culture and hatred of the Charr).
Another thing: Engineers do not use magic. That absorb skill is very likely alchemical in nature.
It sorta irks me a bit. I was expecting a gunner class, so the idea of using tech was't entirely surprising, but turrets? Grenades? I dunno. I guess maybe it's just a bit jarring. I'll probably be happier with the class when they tie it into the lore more. Right now I think it's a bit of a stretch. Sorta like those tanks from the Charr flyover.
No silenced condition in the game. Any condition that can cause a caster to stop fighting will do the same to any other profession.
I'm pretty sure there isn't any magic resistance either. There is only the boon Protection.
The minor clockwork device will cause energy or it isn't class specific. If it doesn't cost energy then it is a consumable and can be used by anyone.
Mesmer isn't confirmed to be in the game. And even if it is we know nothing about it so this argument is useless and invalid.
Elementalists use daggers and Necromancers use axes as foci for their spells. The only technological thing that would make sense as a spell focus would be a gun and that would just be impractical as they already have plenty of spells that they can use the could be used with a gun. There would simply be too many redundant spells that are already covered by a different weapon.
This is basically what my gripe comes down to. That it's so possible for players to break the lore.
In-game you'll see Charr in all areas of the map. In-game you'll see Engineers mixing with all other professions freely. In-game you'll see everyone visiting the Charr homelands. If it's possible to use those tanks etc. in some events then you'll see professions who've never used engineering of any kinds suddenly driving steam vehicles like pros. Yet all that isn't supposed to happen according to the lore.
Imho a good lore is a lore that supports the gameplay in all it's forms. If it's possible to break the lore so badly then it's a bad lore to begin with.
All professions in-game will have free contact with Engineers. All professions will likely come into contact with many engineering contraptions during dynamic event. Because of this all professions should have access to some engineering related abilities. Because that way the lore and gameplay match.
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I don't want to sound combative, but could you give me an example of an MMO where lore retains integrity despite players meddling with it? And though they are breaking the lore I encourage you to think about it in regards to population statistics like I mentioned in the post you quoted. Even though there will be thousands of characters "breaking" the lore, in relation to the overall population it will be a relatively small number. This, in my opinion, kind of keeps the lore intact to some degree.
I'm mostly talking about lore, not gameplay. Lorewise silence does exist. Lorewise elemental and physical resistance does exist ( see GW1 mesmer mantras ). Lorewise Mesmers do exist. Lorewise Elementalists living with Engineers would sometimes use some minor engineering gadgets. And a good lore is reflected in the gameplay.
And I'm pretty sure signets are class specific and don't cost energy.
Look, this is only a minor gripe. In the large scale of things totally insignificant. But it's one I enjoy discussing.
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It's intriguing... but at the same time the first thing I thought about was the lame motorcycle in WoW... I'm still undecided
EvE does a pretty good job at it.
And I understand that statistically there's millions of inhabitants. But I like to think the gameplay represents the lore. So if 80% of all Charr ( both players and NPCs ) aren't engineers in-game then, imho, 80% of all Charr shouldn't be Engineers in the lore.
But yeah, most MMOs botch up the lore pretty badly. Which imho is a shame. I'd love to see a truly immersive MMO.
Again this is, on the larger scale of things, totally unimportant. But I enjoy discussing the interaction between lore and gameplay and I find it interesting to discuss this case where, in my feelings, the lore was just so horribly broken and pinpointing where exactly this break occured and what possible solutions there are.
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You are making this up. There is no lore to support it. And even if there was there is no lore supporting an elementalist using gadgets in combat. Only Charr and Asura racial skills do that.
You also never mentioned signets in your previous post. You only mentioned minor gadgets.
"Some minor clockwork device could provide small bonuses without it costing any energy or effort on the user's part.
Minor engineering gadgets are less likely to be countered by mesmers."
Signets aren't minor gadgets.
In several of my earlier posts I suggested introducing some minor clockwork device that worked much like signets do.
But I'm sorry, I shouldn't expect forum-users to actually read all the posts in a topic before replying.
Lorewise I'm not just referring to the explicit lore written by ANet. I'm also referring to what would logically follow out of that lore. ANet doesn't need to explicitly define gravity for it to be present in the lore. ANet doesn't need to explicitly define that it's possible for two sentient being to share and trade ideas and items.
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Well the thing is 80% of the Charr AREN'T engineers
. Engineering was developed and is used mostly by the Iron Legion, just 1/3 of the total population of Charr, and in reality I doubt 100% of that 33% of the total Charr population (NPCs here) are even Engineers. I'm guessing of the total population only as much as 20% of them are Engineers, and that's just a guestimate.
Edit: And I'd say EVE is quite a different game from Guild Wars 2, or any fantasy-based game for that matter..
But that would also follow that since likely at least 10% of all Charr will be guardians that 10% of all lore Charr are also Guardians. If 20% of all Charr are necromancers then 20% of all lore Charr should also be necromancers. Even though they apperantly mistrust magic so much.
It is without a doubt. But it is an MMO in which the lore is pretty accurate to the gameplay.
Main point is that you first create the gameplay. Then the lore. Not the other way around.
EvE was made like a FFA sandbox. FFA sandboxes are unforgiving. So EvE's lore portrays an unforgiving universe.
A themepark features thousands/millions of adventurers of all possible race-class combinations killing enemies all the time. So the lore should reflect a population which is 90% adventurer of all possible combinations.
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Your warrior example in an earlier hit the nail on the head and you proved other posters point with it. Its not just a case of being able to use magic or use engineering techniques. But to what extent can you use it? Its the point of being able to use it to be efficient with it. That a warrior can use a relative simple spell like mending, still makes him an inefficient magic user. Any high energy spell or one that exhausts him,makes him less efficient. He cant even use mending with the same regeneration as a monk can. And in Guild Wars 1 its only even possible for him to use it because of DUAL professions. Its his second prof monk that lets him use it. Guild Wars 2 doesnt have dual professions.
This is the whole point of having professions. It is so obvious that professions is about specialising and you keep ignoring it. The profession determines what you can use efficiently and you can make up any reason for it from an immersive point of view.
Ill have a go. Engineering makes use of unstable combustable and flammable items that are only safe in the hands of a trained engineer. There you go, your reason why the others dont have access to it. They were too busy training martial weapons and/or magic.
Anet chose to work with different specialisations (professions). You are now basically argueing against it.
-sigh- You make a good point. Honestly we'll have to just wait and see how many in-game Charr Guardian and Necromancer NPCs there are. ANET have said that there won't be MANY of these individuals, but there will definitely be some of them.
There actually won't be ANY Charr NPC Guardians. Jeff Grubb said this in an interview. I don't know about other caster professions but I think it would be safe to say there will be very few if any at all.
So then since non-Engineers can't use any Engineering contraptions we'll not see any Dynamic Events in which Elementalists are using steamtanks? Or any rangers using blackpowder kegs?
And since it's so dangerous Engineers will occasionally misfire and blow themselves up?
How do propose to keep things like that reasonable from an immersive point of view?
We are the bunny.
Resistance is futile.
''/\/\'''''/\/\''''''/\/\
( o.o) ( o.o) ( o.o)
(")("),,(")("),(")(")