My minor gripe is that in a world where Engineering exists among all races and has existed long enough for steamtanks, cars, turrets and mines to be invented there's no sign of it at all in many of the other professions.
This is just something I enjoy discussing. It's not something to win.
If you don't enjoy discussing it then simply stop doing so. I'm not forcing anyone to reply to me.
I see no sign of the Elementalist in the Ranger. I see no sign of the Necro in the Warrior. I see no sign of the Thief in the Guardian. I see no sign of any of them in the Engineer.
It has nothing to do with lore, it has to do with a pure game mechanics reason. The different professions. The division in that is a pure arbitrary one and can be made to work in any form from an immersion point of view. The lore in this case is just to support the profession design.
You only get into trouble with this if you look at it with our real life history in the back of your mind. But that doesnt work at all with any fantasy game or any MMO for that same reason.
Which is what I'm about. The lore should, imho, have everything to do with it. I'm well aware that this won't every completely happen.
But that doesn't mean I can't discuss ways in which it might be improved. I'd like to see the gap between game mechanics and lore bridged. Mechanics that lorewise make 100% sense. Won't ever happen completely, but I can think about ways to increase that percentage.
We are the bunny. Resistance is futile. ''/\/\'''''/\/\''''''/\/\ ( o.o) ( o.o) ( o.o) (")("),,(")("),(")(")
My minor gripe is that in a world where Engineering exists among all races and has existed long enough for steamtanks, cars, turrets and mines to be invented there's no sign of it at all in many of the other professions.
This is just something I enjoy discussing. It's not something to win.
If you don't enjoy discussing it then simply stop doing so. I'm not forcing anyone to reply to me.
I see no sign of the Elementalist in the Ranger. I see no sign of the Necro in the Warrior. I see no sign of the Thief in the Guardian. I see no sign of any of them in the Engineer. [Mod Edit]
All classes have magically related abilities. All classes have martial weapons. Not all classes have engineering related abilities and/or weapons.
We are the bunny. Resistance is futile. ''/\/\'''''/\/\''''''/\/\ ( o.o) ( o.o) ( o.o) (")("),,(")("),(")(")
My minor gripe is that in a world where Engineering exists among all races and has existed long enough for steamtanks, cars, turrets and mines to be invented there's no sign of it at all in many of the other professions.
This is just something I enjoy discussing. It's not something to win.
If you don't enjoy discussing it then simply stop doing so. I'm not forcing anyone to reply to me.
I enjoy discussing it too, and I love saying the word win with a tounge-in-cheek flair to it.
As a game designer and lore hound, let me try breaking it down for you why I have absolutely no issues with Engineering NOT being present in Elementalist, Necromancer, Guardian, or Ranger - Warriors, Engineers and Thieves make use of it just fine.
If I could control the 4 elements, as well as access the power of sigils - I would probably not bother picking up a gun, grenade or anything to that effect. Why would you? You already have everything you could need. It's the same logic when asking why don't elementalists use Two-Handed swords.
Necromancers are virtually the same way, I see no reason to go in to it - I would care very little for ever teaching my students to use Rifles and Pistols.
Guardians can basically "Neo" (See, the Matrix) bullets and have extreme speed and power when their hands are full with weapons other than guns and if I could basically teleport to a target or make Ranged immune Shields at will, then I wouldn't much care about using guns anyways.
Rangers to me are the biggest no brainer... They attune to nature itself in whatever format their were raised and trained in. Charr still use their racial engineering abilities because their born environment was extremely industrial.
So again, what is the issue here? I am trying to find something beyond what is obvious in the arguement, Charr are born around this stuff so they can use it regardless. Professions are trained a certain way, much like how a Shaolin Monk is trained in a certain way.
People think it's fun to pretend your a monster. Me I spend my life pretending I'm not. - Dexter Morgan
It has nothing to do with lore, it has to do with a pure game mechanics reason. The different professions. The division in that is a pure arbitrary one and can be made to work in any form from an immersion point of view. The lore in this case is just to support the profession design.
You only get into trouble with this if you look at it with our real life history in the back of your mind. But that doesnt work at all with any fantasy game or any MMO for that same reason.
Which is what I'm about. The lore should, imho, have everything to do with it. I'm well aware that this won't every completely happen.
But that doesn't mean I can't discuss ways in which it might be improved. I'd like to see the gap between game mechanics and lore bridged. Mechanics that lorewise make 100% sense. Won't ever happen completely, but I can think about ways to increase that percentage.
No, there is not only one way to make lore make sense. You are argueing to make lore the way you would like to see it. Not just letting it make sense. You can invent 1000 reasons why professions are the way they are in GW2. And design professions in a gazillion ways. This doesnt have to change the main overarching story or history. Its just about filling the blanks to support the profession designs.
You just want engineer abilities for other professions. Arenanet CHOSE not to do that for arbitrary reasons that maybe have nothing to do with lore but more with gamemechanic choices. There is no right way in this. You can make it fit into the lore in any way. Lore is also never 100% complete. It always leaves questions because its never as detailed as real life. The blanks in the lore usually also can be filled to fit your profession design choices in any way.
I enjoy discussing it too, and I love saying the word win with a tounge-in-cheek flair to it.
As a game designer and lore hound, let me try breaking it down for you why I have absolutely no issues with Engineering NOT being present in Elementalist, Necromancer, Guardian, or Ranger - Warriors, Engineers and Thieves make use of it just fine.
If I could control the 4 elements, as well as access the power of sigils - I would probably not bother picking up a gun, grenade or anything to that effect. Why would you? You already have everything you could need. It's the same logic when asking why don't elementalists use Two-Handed swords.
Necromancers are virtually the same way, I see no reason to go in to it - I would care very little for ever teaching my students to use Rifles and Pistols.
Guardians can basically "Neo" (See, the Matrix) bullets and have extreme speed and power when their hands are full with weapons other than guns and if I could basically teleport to a target or make Ranged immune Shields at will, then I wouldn't much care about using guns anyways.
Rangers to me are the biggest no brainer... They attune to nature itself in whatever format their were raised and trained in. Charr still use their racial engineering abilities because their born environment was extremely industrial.
So again, what is the issue here? I am trying to find something beyond what is obvious in the arguement, Charr are born around this stuff so they can use it regardless. Professions are trained a certain way, much like how a Shaolin Monk is trained in a certain way.
In my mind technology is something more then just a two-handed sword or something.
It's an aspect of the world. It's a unifying factor that ties things together. Because all the races are allied and trading with each other there should be influences from all the races everywhere.
If rangers were at war with the Charr then them not using any engineering at all would make sense from my point of view. But because they're allies that should be represented in the game by a sharing of ideas.
A probably flawed but well known example would be the small group of forsaken that was present in Thunderbluff ( at least during vanilla WoW ). They were there doing Forsaken stuff in the middle of a totally different Tauren city. This, for me, made the whole Horde feel a lot more like a unified whole.
Similairly profesions should have abilities that link them to all the other professions to make them allies that are really working together. Right now the Engineer feels somehow totally seperate from the rest of the professions even though in-game he'll be grouping alongside them as if nothing's wrong ( and it'll probably only be wrong for me ).
I'd like to think that the first time a Necromancer used an Axe as a spell focus wasn't just random but was because he was mixing with Warriors and such. That was something they shared and the Necro then took that for it's own but it's still a weapon shared with Warriors and Rangers. Same thing for daggers and elementalists. A sort of sharing of martial culture. Same way there should, imho, be a sharing of engineering culture.
We are the bunny. Resistance is futile. ''/\/\'''''/\/\''''''/\/\ ( o.o) ( o.o) ( o.o) (")("),,(")("),(")(")
I enjoy discussing it too, and I love saying the word win with a tounge-in-cheek flair to it.
As a game designer and lore hound, let me try breaking it down for you why I have absolutely no issues with Engineering NOT being present in Elementalist, Necromancer, Guardian, or Ranger - Warriors, Engineers and Thieves make use of it just fine.
If I could control the 4 elements, as well as access the power of sigils - I would probably not bother picking up a gun, grenade or anything to that effect. Why would you? You already have everything you could need. It's the same logic when asking why don't elementalists use Two-Handed swords.
Necromancers are virtually the same way, I see no reason to go in to it - I would care very little for ever teaching my students to use Rifles and Pistols.
Guardians can basically "Neo" (See, the Matrix) bullets and have extreme speed and power when their hands are full with weapons other than guns and if I could basically teleport to a target or make Ranged immune Shields at will, then I wouldn't much care about using guns anyways.
Rangers to me are the biggest no brainer... They attune to nature itself in whatever format their were raised and trained in. Charr still use their racial engineering abilities because their born environment was extremely industrial.
So again, what is the issue here? I am trying to find something beyond what is obvious in the arguement, Charr are born around this stuff so they can use it regardless. Professions are trained a certain way, much like how a Shaolin Monk is trained in a certain way.
In my mind technology is something more then just a two-handed sword or something.
It's an aspect of the world. It's a unifying factor that ties things together. Because all the races are allied and trading with each other there should be influences from all the races everywhere.
If rangers were at war with the Charr then them not using any engineering at all would make sense from my point of view. But because they're allies that should be represented in the game by a sharing of ideas.
A probably flawed but well known example would be the small group of forsaken that was present in Thunderbluff ( at least during vanilla WoW ). They were there doing Forsaken stuff in the middle of a totally different Tauren city. This, for me, made the whole Horde feel a lot more like a unified whole.
Similairly profesions should have abilities that link them to all the other professions to make them allies that are really working together. Right now the Engineer feels somehow totally seperate from the rest of the professions even though in-game he'll be grouping alongside them as if nothing's wrong ( and it'll probably only be wrong for me ).
I'd like to think that the first time a Necromancer used an Axe as a spell focus wasn't just random but was because he was mixing with Warriors and such. That was something they shared and the Necro then took that for it's own but it's still a weapon shared with Warriors and Rangers. Same thing for daggers and elementalists. A sort of sharing of martial culture. Same way there should, imho, be a sharing of engineering culture.
Races =/= Classes. Sorry. If you have a problem with the other professions in GW2 not having part of the Engineer in them then do you have a problem with the Warrior in WoW not having part of the Mage in it?
Also, making up your own lore to fill in small gaps doesn't mean it always works. There is no in game lore to support a Necro using an axe because of the Warrior. Just as there is no in game lore to support other professions using gadgets because of the Engineer. If its such a problem for you then why don't you make up some more lore to justify why the other professions don't have aspects of the Engineer in them.
You're only problem seems to be that the Engineer doesn't fit with your own imaginary lore that doesn't exist.
Races =/= Classes. Sorry. If you have a problem with the other professions in GW2 not having part of the Engineer in them then do you have a problem with the Warrior in WoW not having part of the Mage in it?
Also, making up your own lore to fill in small gaps doesn't mean it always works. There is no in game lore to support a Necro using an axe because of the Warrior. Just as there is no in game lore to support other professions using gadgets because of the Engineer. If its such a problem for you then why don't you make up some more lore to justify why the other professions don't have aspects of the Engineer in them.
You're only problem seems to be that the Engineer doesn't fit with your own imaginary lore that doesn't exist.
I do have a problem with most WoW lore. I think WoW is a ridicilious game. A brilliantly designed and extremely polished game. But still ridicilious when it comes to lore.
My problem is that I believe that allies should share ideas and such and that this should be represented in-game.
I don't know how Necros started using axes. It doesn't matter. The lore I made up around it is irrelevant. The thing that matters is that it's something connecting them to the martial classes. Think of it as symbolism. Symbolism that's present when it comes to unity between martial and magic but somehow absent when you add in engineering.
So, from where I'm standing, the Necromancer and the Warrior feel like genuine allies. Because they're sharing things. While the Engineer doesn't feel like an ally to half of the classes because there's absolutely nothing they seem to share.
We are the bunny. Resistance is futile. ''/\/\'''''/\/\''''''/\/\ ( o.o) ( o.o) ( o.o) (")("),,(")("),(")(")
Races =/= Classes. Sorry. If you have a problem with the other professions in GW2 not having part of the Engineer in them then do you have a problem with the Warrior in WoW not having part of the Mage in it?
Also, making up your own lore to fill in small gaps doesn't mean it always works. There is no in game lore to support a Necro using an axe because of the Warrior. Just as there is no in game lore to support other professions using gadgets because of the Engineer. If its such a problem for you then why don't you make up some more lore to justify why the other professions don't have aspects of the Engineer in them.
You're only problem seems to be that the Engineer doesn't fit with your own imaginary lore that doesn't exist.
I do have a problem with most WoW lore. I think WoW is a ridicilious game. A brilliantly designed and extremely polished game. But still ridicilious when it comes to lore.
My problem is that I believe that allies should share ideas and such and that this should be represented in-game.
I don't know how Necros started using axes. It doesn't matter. The lore I made up around it is irrelevant. The thing that matters is that it's something connecting them to the martial classes. Think of it as symbolism. Symbolism that's present when it comes to unity between martial and magic but somehow absent when you add in engineering.
So, from where I'm standing, the Necromancer and the Warrior feel like genuine allies. Because they're sharing things. While the Engineer doesn't feel like an ally to half of the classes because there's absolutely nothing they seem to share.
You say that the lore you made up is irrelevant. Then you start to go on and espouse the lore you made up. The only reason the Necro and Warrior feel like allies to you is because they both use axes and you made up lore for it.
I suggest you make up some lore about how Thieves and Engineers are allies because they both use pistols. And how about you make up some lore about how the Warrior and Engineer are allies because they both use rifles.
You keep acting like there is no connection between the Engineer and any of the other classes and then you go and connect a Necro with a Warrior because of some imaginary lore about why they both use axes. I'm seeing major contradictions and inconsistancies in your argument.
I do have a problem with most WoW lore. I think WoW is a ridicilious game. A brilliantly designed and extremely polished game. But still ridicilious when it comes to lore.
My problem is that I believe that allies should share ideas and such and that this should be represented in-game.
I don't know how Necros started using axes. It doesn't matter. The lore I made up around it is irrelevant. The thing that matters is that it's something connecting them to the martial classes. Think of it as symbolism. Symbolism that's present when it comes to unity between martial and magic but somehow absent when you add in engineering.
So, from where I'm standing, the Necromancer and the Warrior feel like genuine allies. Because they're sharing things. While the Engineer doesn't feel like an ally to half of the classes because there's absolutely nothing they seem to share.
You say that the lore you made up is irrelevant. Then you start to go on and espouse the lore you made up. The only reason the Necro and Warrior feel like allies to you is because they both use axes and you made up lore for it.
I suggest you make up some lore about how Thieves and Engineers are allies because they both use pistols. And how about you make up some lore about how the Warrior and Engineer are allies because they both use rifles.
You keep acting like there is no connection between the Engineer and any of the other classes and then you go and connect a Necro with a Warrior because of some imaginary lore about why they both use axes. I'm seeing major contradictions and inconsistancies in your argument.
Which is why I said half of the classes.
As I've mentioned several times before magical themes are present in every class. Martial themes are present in every class. Engineering themes are not present in every class. That is what bothers me.
The Necromancer ( and every other class ) has both martial and magical themes. But he has no engineering themes at all.
I believe that, because engineering is a part of the world and this alliance of races, all professions should have at least minor engineering themes.
We are the bunny. Resistance is futile. ''/\/\'''''/\/\''''''/\/\ ( o.o) ( o.o) ( o.o) (")("),,(")("),(")(")
I see it this way. Each class in GW2 has a speciality and a role to play on the battlefield. There are similaraties that each class shares with one another in reguards to how their mechanics work or how their abilities work. Not to mention that you can perform cross class combo's with one another, so the sharing there seems obvious to me (though I do not know how limited those combo's will be).
An Engineer or two could support a group by laying down suppressive fire with a turret in combination with those fancy slowing grenades at the enemy while players that are low on health can flee to .. oh. say a gaurdian in the back lines with one of those protection bubble thingee's up to recover health and then get back in the fight. My point being, I feel that all classes can work together and use their abilities to everyones advantage depending on what the situation demands.
edit to add a bit more
I do not think that it is all that necessary for all the other classes to share anything "engineer like" in common with one another. That is why there is an engineer class... they are the ones that are experts in their field.. like warriors are experts in all things weapons and war, and necros are experts in all things dark and death. I hope i am making a little sence heh heh. :P
I think you missed my point about weapon usage. I am saying, that not all professions have a need for technology. That is all there is to it, what is the issue? I believe I've asked that question half a dozen times up to this point.
If it feels out of place because you have decided that Guns are indeed technology and grenades are indeed technology then I counter to you that Gasoline is technology because I can make an extremely explosive device by throwing a jug of gasoline with a long fuse, volitale yes... but so are grenades.
Another thing, Engineers and Necromancers don't feel like allies because of weapon choice? I would go so far as to call that an absurd notion.
First off, not all classes need Engineer like devices - that is that. If they want to use them, they are going against their training and weakening their potential.
Second off, Engineer fits because it is a viable use of the materials abundant in the rest of the world. If your problem is that anyone should be able to pick up a gun and use it, see above.
Perhaps not every member of every race is innately fueled by the same skill-set that drives the other 7 classes. That is where Engineer comes in, a mish-mash of "every thing else". Why are those people not welcome on the same battlefield as the rest again? I kind of fail to comprehend.
People think it's fun to pretend your a monster. Me I spend my life pretending I'm not. - Dexter Morgan
You're right, of course. I was just about to put together a similar reply but you've saved me the effort, there are plenty of reasons why development and advancement aren't consistent, but you don't even need to look at fantasy to figure that out, seriously. Asking why the charr have clockpunk goodies when it isn't present in the rest of the world is like asking why the Native Americans were using bows instead of guns.
That's really important, I know Gobla and Engie haters will just airbrush over that and ignore it, but it's an important point, because not even the advancemtn of our world was consistent. Fact: Advancement isn't consistent across the world, nor is evolution, nor is culture, nor is anything. Even now not all parts of the world are advancing equally. It's kind of ludicrous to expect that and it creates a more believable world by having that. The humans are sort of like the Native Americans in this regard, they're still using bows & arrows in most cases because they haven't advanced along far enough to use other options, yet. But here's the thing...
The alliance is in place now and the charr factory city is providing for the entire alliance, but you're not going to see clockpunk spread across the map immediately. That would be unreasonable, inconsistent, and completely ridiculous. No, it's going to spread slowly. And here's a bit of truth: It's easier to teach people how to use these tools so that they can build their own stuff rather than having charr forces diverted to build shiny turrets for Divinity's Reach. This is why there isn't much of a clockpunk presence outside of the charr lands yet, but there are people being trained to be engineers by the charr. This makes perfect sense, really.
So I agree, I just think that haters are going to hate. The charr did advance faster in technology than any other race, the charr refined the Engineer as a job, like any other job, and those who're now a part of the alliance are becoming curious of charr technology, how they work, and how the charr do their job, so obviously you're going to have charr teaching people how to be Engineers. Now like I said elsethread, I don't think there'll be a lot of NPCs yet, because that would be slly, I tried to explain this to AKASlaphappy but I don't think he quite got it, regardless... I don't think Engineer NPCs will be everywhere.
Like a Guardian charr, it's a bit of a silly concept, and to the race itself it's not going to work out right away, you'll have charr who'll think of the Guardian as a class based on Faith, and something that a charr shouldn't do, therefore you have no Guardian charr NPCs (and there aren't any). And likewise, humanity would be hesitant to rely on the technology of their ex-foes more than they have to (you may be in favour of the treaty, but ou still may not trust an imposing, unstable looking charr turret), so you're not going to have many Engineer human NPCs. The idea though is however silly these things are, you have the players exploring them.
You have players going to the Black Citadel and learning about charr technology, regardless of their race, and specialising in it as an evolutionary aspect of that world, and you have players going to Divinity's Reach as a charr and learning about the Guardian (since there are no charr Guardian NPCs), so these are silly combinations, really, and they're not thematically fitting, but they'll push the world forward in that regard.
But you can't expect everyone to be everything overnight.
(Clarity.)
(I hope this makes sense because I'm finding it a really hard concept to explain. What I'm saying essentially is that culturally people are just set in their ways.)
Native Americans used plenty of guns when they could get their hands on them.....
I'm not saying every class should be everything. But every class should show influences of the world around them. Guardians shouldn't suddenly turn into power armored space marines, but they should reflect that they're not living in a midievil world but instead a more renaissance like time.
If humans are allowed to become engineers then it's only logical for them to take that knowledge back home. It's only logical they show a bit of that knowledge to other classes. It won't suddenly turn their homeland into clockpunk center but it will show it's influence. It won't turn those other classes to pure gun users but it will influence them.
You're right, the world is evolving with new technology. So the world should reflect that. Culturally people are set in their ways, but they're not static. Both cultures change. That Charr Guardian suddenly suffers amnesia when he goes to Divinity's Reach? Forgets all about any mechanical knowledge? A Human Engineer just *poof* forgets any distrust of Engineering whatsoever and goes full out on gadgets?
The problem is that there's no middle-ground. There's no guardians that use a little bit of Engineering. There's no Engineers using a little bit of martial weapons. This way it doesn't reflect a natural evolving and changing world. It reflects two completely different worlds ducktaped together.
There isn't much time for the humans to take this technology back home, peace with the char is very recent in terms of this games setting.
Not to mention although it is called engineer it uses a lot of ALCHEMY which is everywhere in the game.
Every race has a reason why they can use this tech also, humans just made peace and their alchemists adopted this tech
Norn have been friendly with the charr for most of their time due to similar cultures and locations
asura are crazy alchemist and they connect every civilization in the game with their tech
sylvari are 20 years old and have every other profession I think they can pickup this one just as quick.
This is not a stretch at all. In fact it is a reflection of the natural evolving and changing world
And what is with this there is no guardian that uses engineering, where is my elementalist with armor? where is my warriors casting fireballs wth are you trying to say every class should have every tech?
Exactly. You're exactly right. I mean, even today we have cultures that have no idea how technology works. In the old world, our wrold, there were large amounts of people who had no idea how the technology of the Europeans worked. It's not at all a hard concept to grasp if you're even slightly familiar with history, it's just that the haters are using specious logic to hate on it. And that's what bothers me about this thread: Specious logic.
Those in support of the Engineer realise the truth here - the treaty isn't exactly recent, but it's too recent for clockpunk to be everywhere. You'll see traces of it, like the human agrarian systems, their automatic band, and their printing press, all of which is technology the charr has shared with them. This has been talked about by a number of loremasters, so you are seeing some spread of the technology, and there's the clocktower, again, same thing, just as you pointed out.
The reason the logic of Gobla is so incredibly, amazingly specious is that his argument surrounds the idea that technology must immediately be everywhere and available to everyone despite the charr developing it mostly in secret within their fortress cities, and doing all they can to keep it out of the hands of the enemy. If a military organisation as disciplined and organised ast he charr doesn't want you to have their technology then you're not going to have it, and the charr were the only peoples to develop technology up until this point.
Of course, now that there's an alliance, the charr are providing their technology openly, we're seeing some of that in the world, but Gobla's logic implies that Divinity's Reach must be as built up as the Black Citadel, that every person should have access to technology, but that's patently ridiculous. Consider, that'd be like saying that just because technology exists in our world, all cultures should be metropolitan, you shouldn't have places like Ethiopia in our world. But there are.
This is because despite more advanced cultures being open with what they have limited resources means that they can only share so much, and they can only teach so many, and this is exactly what we're seeing in the Guild Wars 2 reality, we're seeing the charr sharing their technology as much as they can, and the way they're doing that mostly is teaching other people to use what they've learned, rather than building everything for everyone else.
The humans want a printing press? Give them the schematics for it and teach them how to build it, but let them mine the materials for it and put it together themselves. This is why production in the rest of the world is so slow - the charr have the means to mine well and assembly lines to turn raw materials into tools and weapons, but they're a bit preoccupied now with building new weapons for their war machine, and keeping their own soldiers staffed.
What's more important - Bringing Divinity's Reach or the Hoelbrak up to clockpunk standard or getting a wave of recently prototyped tanks out onto the battlefield? Building devices to entertain humans or ensuring that their soldiers are well equipped with everything they could need? Spending time reinforcing human architecture or teaching all races how to do this for themselves so that they can concentrate on their war effort in a broader sense?
There's just no argument against this idea because our own world provides so much evidence to back me up.
And this is why arguments against the charr's advancement versus the rest of the world are nonsense, utter nonsense, as are arguments against engineers. Like I said, Europeans advanced quickly, what about the rest of the world there, in our reality? And why couldn't Native Americans switch over to guns right away? Because all technology is complicated, you need to re-ammo weapons, repair them, maintain them, and use them correctly. All of which requires training.
The charr are training people to specialise in this. The end result? The Engineer profession. It's as simple as that.
This is why I've lost interest in this thread, because the arguments against this are so... utterly nutterly. I mean, I'd understand if there was someting going on here which doesn't make sense, but everything about the state of Tyria does. Completely.
Races =/= Classes. Sorry. If you have a problem with the other professions in GW2 not having part of the Engineer in them then do you have a problem with the Warrior in WoW not having part of the Mage in it?
Also, making up your own lore to fill in small gaps doesn't mean it always works. There is no in game lore to support a Necro using an axe because of the Warrior. Just as there is no in game lore to support other professions using gadgets because of the Engineer. If its such a problem for you then why don't you make up some more lore to justify why the other professions don't have aspects of the Engineer in them.
You're only problem seems to be that the Engineer doesn't fit with your own imaginary lore that doesn't exist.
I do have a problem with most WoW lore. I think WoW is a ridicilious game. A brilliantly designed and extremely polished game. But still ridicilious when it comes to lore.
My problem is that I believe that allies should share ideas and such and that this should be represented in-game.
I don't know how Necros started using axes. It doesn't matter. The lore I made up around it is irrelevant. The thing that matters is that it's something connecting them to the martial classes. Think of it as symbolism. Symbolism that's present when it comes to unity between martial and magic but somehow absent when you add in engineering.
So, from where I'm standing, the Necromancer and the Warrior feel like genuine allies. Because they're sharing things. While the Engineer doesn't feel like an ally to half of the classes because there's absolutely nothing they seem to share.
here's an interesting article about engineer, explaining why should't we complain about having engineer in game. If you don't like the class you should read this, it might improve your opinion.
(t0) I hear about the engineer class and think 'awesome!'. I like engineer classes...I like the idea of just chucking around technology instead of magic. It's the same reason people like Boba Fett. He doesn't have any innate powers, just some tech and the ability to be a badass.
(t20) So 20 mins later I've watched the vids and read a little article. Cool stuff. But then I see some comments, essentially throwing their dummy out of the pram because of the similarities to Warhammer's engi. 'Idiocy', I think. And it is...whether the similarities are there or not, very few have bothered to put together any constructive criticism.
(t120) I go and do some work. But I return to read some more views on the matter. And you know, the similarities are quite large. At first it's the turret that really hits you...you don't often see turrets in an MMO and they were signature to WAR's engi class. So were various bombs and the like, actually the similarities are apparently large.
(t121) But then, it's an engi class. They're bound to be large. The warrior has a shield and a sword but I'd hardly say it's a ripoff from my Knight on FF Tactics. Okay, that's hyperbole but the engi class has been a mainstay of games for a while...and the engi goes with turrets and bombs like the thief goes with knives and stealth, like the warrior goes with sword and shield, like the ranger goes with bows and pets.
The difference is in the play. On WAR you put down a turret and became instantly melancholy with disappointment. On TF2 you put down a turret and hide behind it as it ploughs through a mountain to one-shot a heavy at the other side of the map. Meanwhile WAR engis didn't have a healing turret...but isn't that just like a dispenser? So what? Dispensers are awesome, we can all have heals without anyone mindlessly clicking on HP bars.
The skills are familiar to us because the engineer has become a well-loved class among gamers. How it plays could vary wildly. I look forward to the rocket jump and flamethrower, feels kinda Thaddeus, doesn't it? Or maybe a bit Fett. The kits are a cool idea, also. There's a lot going on beneath the skin.
On a more negative note...I do feel an opportunity has been missed with the engi. I was hoping for a sort of construction kit that would let you build destructable walls or dig pits into the ground. Who knows.
I never liked profession which use static buffs on the ground (totems, spirits or in this case turrets). Most likely will play it after I've gone through most of the other professions. Ok maybe before I play a warrior or ranger cause those seem super boring to me
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Exactly. You're exactly right. I mean, even today we have cultures that have no idea how technology works. In the old world, our wrold, there were large amounts of people who had no idea how the technology of the Europeans worked. It's not at all a hard concept to grasp if you're even slightly familiar with history, it's just that the haters are using specious logic to hate on it. And that's what bothers me about this thread: Specious logic.
Those in support of the Engineer realise the truth here - the treaty isn't exactly recent, but it's too recent for clockpunk to be everywhere. You'll see traces of it, like the human agrarian systems, their automatic band, and their printing press, all of which is technology the charr has shared with them. This has been talked about by a number of loremasters, so you are seeing some spread of the technology, and there's the clocktower, again, same thing, just as you pointed out.
The reason the logic of Gobla is so incredibly, amazingly specious is that his argument surrounds the idea that technology must immediately be everywhere and available to everyone despite the charr developing it mostly in secret within their fortress cities, and doing all they can to keep it out of the hands of the enemy. If a military organisation as disciplined and organised ast he charr doesn't want you to have their technology then you're not going to have it, and the charr were the only peoples to develop technology up until this point.
Of course, now that there's an alliance, the charr are providing their technology openly, we're seeing some of that in the world, but Gobla's logic implies that Divinity's Reach must be as built up as the Black Citadel, that every person should have access to technology, but that's patently ridiculous. Consider, that'd be like saying that just because technology exists in our world, all cultures should be metropolitan, you shouldn't have places like Ethiopia in our world. But there are.
This is because despite more advanced cultures being open with what they have limited resources means that they can only share so much, and they can only teach so many, and this is exactly what we're seeing in the Guild Wars 2 reality, we're seeing the charr sharing their technology as much as they can, and the way they're doing that mostly is teaching other people to use what they've learned, rather than building everything for everyone else.
The humans want a printing press? Give them the schematics for it and teach them how to build it, but let them mine the materials for it and put it together themselves. This is why production in the rest of the world is so slow - the charr have the means to mine well and assembly lines to turn raw materials into tools and weapons, but they're a bit preoccupied now with building new weapons for their war machine, and keeping their own soldiers staffed.
What's more important - Bringing Divinity's Reach or the Hoelbrak up to clockpunk standard or getting a wave of recently prototyped tanks out onto the battlefield? Building devices to entertain humans or ensuring that their soldiers are well equipped with everything they could need? Spending time reinforcing human architecture or teaching all races how to do this for themselves so that they can concentrate on their war effort in a broader sense?
There's just no argument against this idea because our own world provides so much evidence to back me up.
And this is why arguments against the charr's advancement versus the rest of the world are nonsense, utter nonsense, as are arguments against engineers. Like I said, Europeans advanced quickly, what about the rest of the world there, in our reality? And why couldn't Native Americans switch over to guns right away? Because all technology is complicated, you need to re-ammo weapons, repair them, maintain them, and use them correctly. All of which requires training.
The charr are training people to specialise in this. The end result? The Engineer profession. It's as simple as that.
This is why I've lost interest in this thread, because the arguments against this are so... utterly nutterly. I mean, I'd understand if there was someting going on here which doesn't make sense, but everything about the state of Tyria does. Completely.
Look, if you extremize my argument in your mind like that of course it'll be wrong.
I'm not saying the entire would should start wearing power armor and riding tanks.
All I'm saying is that just like there's traces of steampunk in those agrarian systems ( but hey, if magic is just equal why did they need those upgrades? ) there should be traces of steampunk in the other professions.
There's things that engineering is superior at. Otherwise the humans wouldn't have those printing presses, clocktowers and automatic bands. Otherwise there wouldn't be any engineering.
Just like the rest of the world is integrating 1% of steampunk into their lives so should the professions. They should start showing minor steampunk themes.
Of course all technology is complicated. But you don't need a Harvard education to pull a pin and throw a ball. Or get a general aim and pull a trigger.
Engineering is better at some stuff. Otherwise the humans would be using a magical agrarian system or a magical printing press. For that same reason other professions should start using a tiny little bit of technology. Because it makes sense that they're affected by the world around them instead of every single elementalist going "lalalala! my own powers are so much better! lalalalala!".
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I'm indifferent to it, as I don't plan to have it as my main. I won't know if I like it or not until I actually get the game and give it a try. I won't judge it based on what I've seen so far (although the mines and grenades are a bit much in my opinion).
Also, with all that technology you would think engineers would learn to wear heavy armor, but hey.
Definitely hate it. Reminds me of the day in WoW (yes I was young and blind a long time ago) when a motorbike passed by with its horrible sound, this was shocking and disturbing. In a mmo where everything is magic and medieval to have suddenly electronic mines, gun turrels, or high-tech gadgets is simply ill-at-place.
GW2 is trying so hard to be everything everyone has ever dreamed of that they are even introducing this kind of sci-fi/steampunk elements that simply don't fit into their universe. I'm still anxious to play it but this kind of class and its weird skills are really destroying a part of its charm for me.
Look, let me say one thing to start- this is a FANTASY game.
What that means is that it has no limits or definitions as to what it has to be. Fantasy is not defined by Tolkien and people that brainfart if anything dares to go beyond his version of fantasy are worrying. Genre taditionalists like you have caused fantasy to stagnate to the point where it has become almost a joke cliche of recycled stale ideas, used again and again because some readers don't have the imagination to allow it to move in different directions.
Fantasy should be about the free expression of the imagination and of, yes, fantastical ideas. It shouldnt be about having to slavishly follow Tolkien's blueprint.
In GW2, everything obviously ISNT just magical and medieval, it never has been and that obviously isnt it's lore in the time period the game is set in and things have developed. Nor is it 'sci-fi' with 'electronics'.... thats just silly exaggeration.
There is no 'out of place'. Everything fits if the writers say it fits, because it's their fantasy lore. In short, the only person that can say if something fits into a fantasy universe are the creators of that universe. You are free to like it or not, ofc, but you cannot say, above the creators, what fits or not.
Personally, I love the use together of pure magic, alchemy (of which gunpowder is a perfectly logical product of in a fantasty setting), and steam/ clockwork. I don't want to see it in everything, but in a game like this, done this well, yes please.
To my knowledge, actually... I can state factually, Gunpowder/Blackpowder (referring to generally as Gunpowder from here on) IS in GW1, you use it in prophecies to blow up walls - and I believe Centaur catapults launch it.
Engineers are implied as inventors. They use Gunpowder.
People use Pistols and Rifles because it is a rapid firing ranged attack device that requires little skill to use, I can not fathom the disconnect here. There is every lore reason present for why Gunpowder is here, and why people use it in the manner they do. Other weapons are perfectly viable alternatives on the same battlefield.
What am I missing?
Nothing, except some others inability to not brainfart if it isnt Tolkien.
I'm indifferent to it, as I don't plan to have it as my main. I won't know if I like it or not until I actually get the game and give it a try. I won't judge it based on what I've seen so far (although the mines and grenades are a bit much in my opinion).
Also, with all that technology you would think engineers would learn to wear heavy armor, but hey.
With all the weight they are already carrying you want to slow them down some more?
On a more negative note...I do feel an opportunity has been missed with the engi. I was hoping for a sort of construction kit that would let you build destructable walls or dig pits into the ground. Who knows.
Haha construction kit, that's actually a nice idea.
Look, let me say one thing to start- this is a FANTASY game.
What that means is that it has no limits or definitions as to what it has to be. Fantasy is not defined by Tolkien and people that brainfart if anything dares to go beyond his version of fantasy are worrying. Genre taditionalists like you have caused fantasy to stagnate to the point where it has become almost a joke cliche of recycled stale ideas, used again and again because some readers don't have the imagination to allow it to move in different directions.
Fantasy should be about the free expression of the imagination and of, yes, fantastical ideas. It shouldnt be about having to slavishly follow Tolkien's blueprint.
In GW2, everything obviously ISNT just magical and medieval, it never has been and that obviously isnt it's lore in the time period the game is set in and things have developed. Nor is it 'sci-fi' with 'electronics'.... thats just silly exaggeration.
There is no 'out of place'. Everything fits if the writers say it fits, because it's their fantasy lore. In short, the only person that can say if something fits into a fantasy universe are the creators of that universe. You are free to like it or not, ofc, but you cannot say, above the creators, what fits or not.
Personally, I love the use together of pure magic, alchemy (of which gunpowder is a perfectly logical product of in a fantasty setting), and steam/ clockwork. I don't want to see it in everything, but in a game like this, done this well, yes please.
Of course we can say whether or we feel something fits or not. It's fine if you think that it does fit, but that doesn't make everyone who thinks it doesn't fit the cause of "fantasy to stagnate to the point where it has become almost a joke cliche of recycled stale ideas, used again and again because some readoner don't have the imgaination to allow it to move in different directions".
You think the inclusion of the Engineer makes for a coherent fantasy universe. MyPreciousss doesn't. I don't. We disagree. Simple as that. Doesn't make any of us wrong, close-minded or brainfarting.
What's so difficult about simply accepting that some people don't think this fits without making judgements?
Some people just don't like it, simple as that. End of story. It doesn't mean anything to their person. It's just a fantasy game. It shouldn't be about slavishly following Tolkien's blueprint, but neither should it be about slavishly avoiding Tolkien's blueprint.
Just because someone doesn't like a direction doesn't mean they're actively fighting against that direction. GW2 should go in whatever direction it wants to go, but nobody should be surprised if people express their dislike of that direction.
I think the contrast between the Engineer and for example the Guardian is too big for them to be believable allies. That's my opinion. It doesn't mean I'm out to actively boycot the Engineer, I'm just expressing my views on a public forum.
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I see no sign of the Elementalist in the Ranger. I see no sign of the Necro in the Warrior. I see no sign of the Thief in the Guardian. I see no sign of any of them in the Engineer.
[Mod Edit]
Which is what I'm about. The lore should, imho, have everything to do with it. I'm well aware that this won't every completely happen.
But that doesn't mean I can't discuss ways in which it might be improved. I'd like to see the gap between game mechanics and lore bridged. Mechanics that lorewise make 100% sense. Won't ever happen completely, but I can think about ways to increase that percentage.
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All classes have magically related abilities. All classes have martial weapons. Not all classes have engineering related abilities and/or weapons.
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I enjoy discussing it too, and I love saying the word win with a tounge-in-cheek flair to it.
As a game designer and lore hound, let me try breaking it down for you why I have absolutely no issues with Engineering NOT being present in Elementalist, Necromancer, Guardian, or Ranger - Warriors, Engineers and Thieves make use of it just fine.
If I could control the 4 elements, as well as access the power of sigils - I would probably not bother picking up a gun, grenade or anything to that effect. Why would you? You already have everything you could need. It's the same logic when asking why don't elementalists use Two-Handed swords.
Necromancers are virtually the same way, I see no reason to go in to it - I would care very little for ever teaching my students to use Rifles and Pistols.
Guardians can basically "Neo" (See, the Matrix) bullets and have extreme speed and power when their hands are full with weapons other than guns and if I could basically teleport to a target or make Ranged immune Shields at will, then I wouldn't much care about using guns anyways.
Rangers to me are the biggest no brainer... They attune to nature itself in whatever format their were raised and trained in. Charr still use their racial engineering abilities because their born environment was extremely industrial.
So again, what is the issue here? I am trying to find something beyond what is obvious in the arguement, Charr are born around this stuff so they can use it regardless. Professions are trained a certain way, much like how a Shaolin Monk is trained in a certain way.
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No, there is not only one way to make lore make sense. You are argueing to make lore the way you would like to see it. Not just letting it make sense. You can invent 1000 reasons why professions are the way they are in GW2. And design professions in a gazillion ways. This doesnt have to change the main overarching story or history. Its just about filling the blanks to support the profession designs.
You just want engineer abilities for other professions. Arenanet CHOSE not to do that for arbitrary reasons that maybe have nothing to do with lore but more with gamemechanic choices. There is no right way in this. You can make it fit into the lore in any way. Lore is also never 100% complete. It always leaves questions because its never as detailed as real life. The blanks in the lore usually also can be filled to fit your profession design choices in any way.
In my mind technology is something more then just a two-handed sword or something.
It's an aspect of the world. It's a unifying factor that ties things together. Because all the races are allied and trading with each other there should be influences from all the races everywhere.
If rangers were at war with the Charr then them not using any engineering at all would make sense from my point of view. But because they're allies that should be represented in the game by a sharing of ideas.
A probably flawed but well known example would be the small group of forsaken that was present in Thunderbluff ( at least during vanilla WoW ). They were there doing Forsaken stuff in the middle of a totally different Tauren city. This, for me, made the whole Horde feel a lot more like a unified whole.
Similairly profesions should have abilities that link them to all the other professions to make them allies that are really working together. Right now the Engineer feels somehow totally seperate from the rest of the professions even though in-game he'll be grouping alongside them as if nothing's wrong ( and it'll probably only be wrong for me ).
I'd like to think that the first time a Necromancer used an Axe as a spell focus wasn't just random but was because he was mixing with Warriors and such. That was something they shared and the Necro then took that for it's own but it's still a weapon shared with Warriors and Rangers. Same thing for daggers and elementalists. A sort of sharing of martial culture. Same way there should, imho, be a sharing of engineering culture.
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Races =/= Classes. Sorry. If you have a problem with the other professions in GW2 not having part of the Engineer in them then do you have a problem with the Warrior in WoW not having part of the Mage in it?
Also, making up your own lore to fill in small gaps doesn't mean it always works. There is no in game lore to support a Necro using an axe because of the Warrior. Just as there is no in game lore to support other professions using gadgets because of the Engineer. If its such a problem for you then why don't you make up some more lore to justify why the other professions don't have aspects of the Engineer in them.
You're only problem seems to be that the Engineer doesn't fit with your own imaginary lore that doesn't exist.
I do have a problem with most WoW lore. I think WoW is a ridicilious game. A brilliantly designed and extremely polished game. But still ridicilious when it comes to lore.
My problem is that I believe that allies should share ideas and such and that this should be represented in-game.
I don't know how Necros started using axes. It doesn't matter. The lore I made up around it is irrelevant. The thing that matters is that it's something connecting them to the martial classes. Think of it as symbolism. Symbolism that's present when it comes to unity between martial and magic but somehow absent when you add in engineering.
So, from where I'm standing, the Necromancer and the Warrior feel like genuine allies. Because they're sharing things. While the Engineer doesn't feel like an ally to half of the classes because there's absolutely nothing they seem to share.
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Please refrain from engaging in personal arguments and namecalling. Thanks.
You say that the lore you made up is irrelevant. Then you start to go on and espouse the lore you made up. The only reason the Necro and Warrior feel like allies to you is because they both use axes and you made up lore for it.
I suggest you make up some lore about how Thieves and Engineers are allies because they both use pistols. And how about you make up some lore about how the Warrior and Engineer are allies because they both use rifles.
You keep acting like there is no connection between the Engineer and any of the other classes and then you go and connect a Necro with a Warrior because of some imaginary lore about why they both use axes. I'm seeing major contradictions and inconsistancies in your argument.
Which is why I said half of the classes.
As I've mentioned several times before magical themes are present in every class. Martial themes are present in every class. Engineering themes are not present in every class. That is what bothers me.
The Necromancer ( and every other class ) has both martial and magical themes. But he has no engineering themes at all.
I believe that, because engineering is a part of the world and this alliance of races, all professions should have at least minor engineering themes.
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I see it this way. Each class in GW2 has a speciality and a role to play on the battlefield. There are similaraties that each class shares with one another in reguards to how their mechanics work or how their abilities work. Not to mention that you can perform cross class combo's with one another, so the sharing there seems obvious to me (though I do not know how limited those combo's will be).
An Engineer or two could support a group by laying down suppressive fire with a turret in combination with those fancy slowing grenades at the enemy while players that are low on health can flee to .. oh. say a gaurdian in the back lines with one of those protection bubble thingee's up to recover health and then get back in the fight. My point being, I feel that all classes can work together and use their abilities to everyones advantage depending on what the situation demands.
edit to add a bit more
I do not think that it is all that necessary for all the other classes to share anything "engineer like" in common with one another. That is why there is an engineer class... they are the ones that are experts in their field.. like warriors are experts in all things weapons and war, and necros are experts in all things dark and death. I hope i am making a little sence heh heh. :P
I think you missed my point about weapon usage. I am saying, that not all professions have a need for technology. That is all there is to it, what is the issue? I believe I've asked that question half a dozen times up to this point.
If it feels out of place because you have decided that Guns are indeed technology and grenades are indeed technology then I counter to you that Gasoline is technology because I can make an extremely explosive device by throwing a jug of gasoline with a long fuse, volitale yes... but so are grenades.
Another thing, Engineers and Necromancers don't feel like allies because of weapon choice? I would go so far as to call that an absurd notion.
First off, not all classes need Engineer like devices - that is that. If they want to use them, they are going against their training and weakening their potential.
Second off, Engineer fits because it is a viable use of the materials abundant in the rest of the world. If your problem is that anyone should be able to pick up a gun and use it, see above.
Perhaps not every member of every race is innately fueled by the same skill-set that drives the other 7 classes. That is where Engineer comes in, a mish-mash of "every thing else". Why are those people not welcome on the same battlefield as the rest again? I kind of fail to comprehend.
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Exactly. You're exactly right. I mean, even today we have cultures that have no idea how technology works. In the old world, our wrold, there were large amounts of people who had no idea how the technology of the Europeans worked. It's not at all a hard concept to grasp if you're even slightly familiar with history, it's just that the haters are using specious logic to hate on it. And that's what bothers me about this thread: Specious logic.
Those in support of the Engineer realise the truth here - the treaty isn't exactly recent, but it's too recent for clockpunk to be everywhere. You'll see traces of it, like the human agrarian systems, their automatic band, and their printing press, all of which is technology the charr has shared with them. This has been talked about by a number of loremasters, so you are seeing some spread of the technology, and there's the clocktower, again, same thing, just as you pointed out.
The reason the logic of Gobla is so incredibly, amazingly specious is that his argument surrounds the idea that technology must immediately be everywhere and available to everyone despite the charr developing it mostly in secret within their fortress cities, and doing all they can to keep it out of the hands of the enemy. If a military organisation as disciplined and organised ast he charr doesn't want you to have their technology then you're not going to have it, and the charr were the only peoples to develop technology up until this point.
Of course, now that there's an alliance, the charr are providing their technology openly, we're seeing some of that in the world, but Gobla's logic implies that Divinity's Reach must be as built up as the Black Citadel, that every person should have access to technology, but that's patently ridiculous. Consider, that'd be like saying that just because technology exists in our world, all cultures should be metropolitan, you shouldn't have places like Ethiopia in our world. But there are.
This is because despite more advanced cultures being open with what they have limited resources means that they can only share so much, and they can only teach so many, and this is exactly what we're seeing in the Guild Wars 2 reality, we're seeing the charr sharing their technology as much as they can, and the way they're doing that mostly is teaching other people to use what they've learned, rather than building everything for everyone else.
The humans want a printing press? Give them the schematics for it and teach them how to build it, but let them mine the materials for it and put it together themselves. This is why production in the rest of the world is so slow - the charr have the means to mine well and assembly lines to turn raw materials into tools and weapons, but they're a bit preoccupied now with building new weapons for their war machine, and keeping their own soldiers staffed.
What's more important - Bringing Divinity's Reach or the Hoelbrak up to clockpunk standard or getting a wave of recently prototyped tanks out onto the battlefield? Building devices to entertain humans or ensuring that their soldiers are well equipped with everything they could need? Spending time reinforcing human architecture or teaching all races how to do this for themselves so that they can concentrate on their war effort in a broader sense?
There's just no argument against this idea because our own world provides so much evidence to back me up.
And this is why arguments against the charr's advancement versus the rest of the world are nonsense, utter nonsense, as are arguments against engineers. Like I said, Europeans advanced quickly, what about the rest of the world there, in our reality? And why couldn't Native Americans switch over to guns right away? Because all technology is complicated, you need to re-ammo weapons, repair them, maintain them, and use them correctly. All of which requires training.
The charr are training people to specialise in this. The end result? The Engineer profession. It's as simple as that.
This is why I've lost interest in this thread, because the arguments against this are so... utterly nutterly. I mean, I'd understand if there was someting going on here which doesn't make sense, but everything about the state of Tyria does. Completely.
Guns, they share guns.
This is not a game.
here's an interesting article about engineer, explaining why should't we complain about having engineer in game. If you don't like the class you should read this, it might improve your opinion.
http://tap-repeatedly.com/2011/05/21/suspending-disbelief/
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(t0) I hear about the engineer class and think 'awesome!'. I like engineer classes...I like the idea of just chucking around technology instead of magic. It's the same reason people like Boba Fett. He doesn't have any innate powers, just some tech and the ability to be a badass.
(t20) So 20 mins later I've watched the vids and read a little article. Cool stuff. But then I see some comments, essentially throwing their dummy out of the pram because of the similarities to Warhammer's engi. 'Idiocy', I think. And it is...whether the similarities are there or not, very few have bothered to put together any constructive criticism.
(t120) I go and do some work. But I return to read some more views on the matter. And you know, the similarities are quite large. At first it's the turret that really hits you...you don't often see turrets in an MMO and they were signature to WAR's engi class. So were various bombs and the like, actually the similarities are apparently large.
(t121) But then, it's an engi class. They're bound to be large. The warrior has a shield and a sword but I'd hardly say it's a ripoff from my Knight on FF Tactics. Okay, that's hyperbole but the engi class has been a mainstay of games for a while...and the engi goes with turrets and bombs like the thief goes with knives and stealth, like the warrior goes with sword and shield, like the ranger goes with bows and pets.
The difference is in the play. On WAR you put down a turret and became instantly melancholy with disappointment. On TF2 you put down a turret and hide behind it as it ploughs through a mountain to one-shot a heavy at the other side of the map. Meanwhile WAR engis didn't have a healing turret...but isn't that just like a dispenser? So what? Dispensers are awesome, we can all have heals without anyone mindlessly clicking on HP bars.
The skills are familiar to us because the engineer has become a well-loved class among gamers. How it plays could vary wildly. I look forward to the rocket jump and flamethrower, feels kinda Thaddeus, doesn't it? Or maybe a bit Fett. The kits are a cool idea, also. There's a lot going on beneath the skin.
On a more negative note...I do feel an opportunity has been missed with the engi. I was hoping for a sort of construction kit that would let you build destructable walls or dig pits into the ground. Who knows.
-Desagidit
I never liked profession which use static buffs on the ground (totems, spirits or in this case turrets). Most likely will play it after I've gone through most of the other professions. Ok maybe before I play a warrior or ranger cause those seem super boring to me
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Look, if you extremize my argument in your mind like that of course it'll be wrong.
I'm not saying the entire would should start wearing power armor and riding tanks.
All I'm saying is that just like there's traces of steampunk in those agrarian systems ( but hey, if magic is just equal why did they need those upgrades? ) there should be traces of steampunk in the other professions.
There's things that engineering is superior at. Otherwise the humans wouldn't have those printing presses, clocktowers and automatic bands. Otherwise there wouldn't be any engineering.
Just like the rest of the world is integrating 1% of steampunk into their lives so should the professions. They should start showing minor steampunk themes.
Of course all technology is complicated. But you don't need a Harvard education to pull a pin and throw a ball. Or get a general aim and pull a trigger.
Engineering is better at some stuff. Otherwise the humans would be using a magical agrarian system or a magical printing press. For that same reason other professions should start using a tiny little bit of technology. Because it makes sense that they're affected by the world around them instead of every single elementalist going "lalalala! my own powers are so much better! lalalalala!".
We are the bunny.
Resistance is futile.
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I'm indifferent to it, as I don't plan to have it as my main. I won't know if I like it or not until I actually get the game and give it a try. I won't judge it based on what I've seen so far (although the mines and grenades are a bit much in my opinion).
Also, with all that technology you would think engineers would learn to wear heavy armor, but hey.
Look, let me say one thing to start- this is a FANTASY game.
What that means is that it has no limits or definitions as to what it has to be. Fantasy is not defined by Tolkien and people that brainfart if anything dares to go beyond his version of fantasy are worrying. Genre taditionalists like you have caused fantasy to stagnate to the point where it has become almost a joke cliche of recycled stale ideas, used again and again because some readers don't have the imagination to allow it to move in different directions.
Fantasy should be about the free expression of the imagination and of, yes, fantastical ideas. It shouldnt be about having to slavishly follow Tolkien's blueprint.
In GW2, everything obviously ISNT just magical and medieval, it never has been and that obviously isnt it's lore in the time period the game is set in and things have developed. Nor is it 'sci-fi' with 'electronics'.... thats just silly exaggeration.
There is no 'out of place'. Everything fits if the writers say it fits, because it's their fantasy lore. In short, the only person that can say if something fits into a fantasy universe are the creators of that universe. You are free to like it or not, ofc, but you cannot say, above the creators, what fits or not.
Personally, I love the use together of pure magic, alchemy (of which gunpowder is a perfectly logical product of in a fantasty setting), and steam/ clockwork. I don't want to see it in everything, but in a game like this, done this well, yes please.
Nothing, except some others inability to not brainfart if it isnt Tolkien.
With all the weight they are already carrying you want to slow them down some more?
This is not a game.
Haha construction kit, that's actually a nice idea.
This is not a game.
Of course we can say whether or we feel something fits or not. It's fine if you think that it does fit, but that doesn't make everyone who thinks it doesn't fit the cause of "fantasy to stagnate to the point where it has become almost a joke cliche of recycled stale ideas, used again and again because some readoner don't have the imgaination to allow it to move in different directions".
You think the inclusion of the Engineer makes for a coherent fantasy universe. MyPreciousss doesn't. I don't. We disagree. Simple as that. Doesn't make any of us wrong, close-minded or brainfarting.
What's so difficult about simply accepting that some people don't think this fits without making judgements?
Some people just don't like it, simple as that. End of story. It doesn't mean anything to their person. It's just a fantasy game. It shouldn't be about slavishly following Tolkien's blueprint, but neither should it be about slavishly avoiding Tolkien's blueprint.
Just because someone doesn't like a direction doesn't mean they're actively fighting against that direction. GW2 should go in whatever direction it wants to go, but nobody should be surprised if people express their dislike of that direction.
I think the contrast between the Engineer and for example the Guardian is too big for them to be believable allies. That's my opinion. It doesn't mean I'm out to actively boycot the Engineer, I'm just expressing my views on a public forum.
We are the bunny.
Resistance is futile.
''/\/\'''''/\/\''''''/\/\
( o.o) ( o.o) ( o.o)
(")("),,(")("),(")(")