Well the thing is 80% of the Charr AREN'T engineers . Engineering was developed and is used mostly by the Iron Legion, just 1/3 of the total population of Charr, and in reality I doubt 100% of that 33% of the total Charr population (NPCs here) are even Engineers. I'm guessing of the total population only as much as 20% of them are Engineers, and that's just a guestimate.
But that would also follow that since likely at least 10% of all Charr will be guardians that 10% of all lore Charr are also Guardians. If 20% of all Charr are necromancers then 20% of all lore Charr should also be necromancers. Even though they apperantly mistrust magic so much.
-sigh- You make a good point. Honestly we'll have to just wait and see how many in-game Charr Guardian and Necromancer NPCs there are. ANET have said that there won't be MANY of these individuals, but there will definitely be some of them.
There actually won't be ANY Charr NPC Guardians. Jeff Grubb said this in an interview. I don't know about other caster professions but I think it would be safe to say there will be very few if any at all.
My mistake then. I actually remember that now, he says it in the wartower.de interview about the Engineers, doesn't he?
Well the thing is 80% of the Charr AREN'T engineers . Engineering was developed and is used mostly by the Iron Legion, just 1/3 of the total population of Charr, and in reality I doubt 100% of that 33% of the total Charr population (NPCs here) are even Engineers. I'm guessing of the total population only as much as 20% of them are Engineers, and that's just a guestimate.
But that would also follow that since likely at least 10% of all Charr will be guardians that 10% of all lore Charr are also Guardians. If 20% of all Charr are necromancers then 20% of all lore Charr should also be necromancers. Even though they apperantly mistrust magic so much.
-sigh- You make a good point. Honestly we'll have to just wait and see how many in-game Charr Guardian and Necromancer NPCs there are. ANET have said that there won't be MANY of these individuals, but there will definitely be some of them.
There actually won't be ANY Charr NPC Guardians. Jeff Grubb said this in an interview. I don't know about other caster professions but I think it would be safe to say there will be very few if any at all.
My mistake then. I actually remember that now, he says it in the wartower.de interview about the Engineers, doesn't he?
Actually I believe its an interview from Charr week.
Well the thing is 80% of the Charr AREN'T engineers . Engineering was developed and is used mostly by the Iron Legion, just 1/3 of the total population of Charr, and in reality I doubt 100% of that 33% of the total Charr population (NPCs here) are even Engineers. I'm guessing of the total population only as much as 20% of them are Engineers, and that's just a guestimate.
But that would also follow that since likely at least 10% of all Charr will be guardians that 10% of all lore Charr are also Guardians. If 20% of all Charr are necromancers then 20% of all lore Charr should also be necromancers. Even though they apperantly mistrust magic so much.
Both your numbers make no sense. Races arent as isolated anymore as in Guild Wars 1 and the professions already show that you can train with other races in what was originally their specialisation. Lore makes up the race's history and origin of their magic or technology, not just current events. It also doesnt restrict them from training members of other races/clans to learn to use that.
Not to mention that the heroes that players represent are just a small fraction of the whole population. So you could even see them as the exceptions if you would like. Like in any MMO.
In a fantasy game, anytime any player says anything like "lol" or "Chuck Norris is so strong..." the lore is broken. There is literally no way to stop lore-breaking in an MMO, or at least a fantasy one. Even in single player games it's pretty easy; start a character in Dragon's Age 2 and name him "Stupidanus Hawke" and bam, lore destruction.
You are making this up. There is no lore to support it. And even if there was there is no lore supporting an elementalist using gadgets in combat. Only Charr and Asura racial skills do that.
You also never mentioned signets in your previous post. You only mentioned minor gadgets.
"Some minor clockwork device could provide small bonuses without it costing any energy or effort on the user's part.
Minor engineering gadgets are less likely to be countered by mesmers."
Signets aren't minor gadgets.
In several of my earlier posts I suggested introducing some minor clockwork device that worked much like signets do.
But I'm sorry, I shouldn't expect forum-users to actually read all the posts in a topic before replying.
Lorewise I'm not just referring to the explicit lore written by ANet. I'm also referring to what would logically follow out of that lore. ANet doesn't need to explicitly define gravity for it to be present in the lore. ANet doesn't need to explicitly define that it's possible for two sentient being to share and trade ideas and items.
You did mention signets earlier. But the post I was replying to didn't mention signets. You were talking about minor gadgets on their own. The context of your post shows you only talking about gadgets by themselves. If I can't tell that you are talking about gadgets that work like signets then it is your fault for only mentioning gadgets.
Professions in their own context wouldn't use technology because they have no use for it. The only exception is the Engineer.
To the orange part: Just because it is logical to you doesn't mean its what is going to happen or that it is the only logical thing that can happen.
Some people think that religion is logical.
Some people think that religion is illogical.
ArenaNet's lore is ArenaNet's lore. ArenaNet doesn't need to explicitly define that other professions can't use an Engineer's gadgets. It is simply the most logical course that they won't if it is unnecessary. An caster isn't going to use any of and Engineer's gadgets if they can cause the same effect with one of their spells.
Your warrior example in an earlier hit the nail on the head and you proved other posters point with it. Its not just a case of being able to use magic or use engineering techniques. But to what extent can you use it? Its the point of being able to use it to be efficient with it. That a warrior can use a relative simple spell like mending, still makes him an inefficient magic user. Any high energy spell or one that exhausts him,makes him less efficient. He cant even use mending with the same regeneration as a monk can. And in Guild Wars 1 its only even possible for him to use it because of DUAL professions. Its his second prof monk that lets him use it. Guild Wars 2 doesnt have dual professions.
This is the whole point of having professions. It is so obvious that professions is about specialising and you keep ignoring it. The profession determines what you can use efficiently and you can make up any reason for it from an immersive point of view.
Ill have a go. Engineering makes use of unstable combustable and flammable items that are only safe in the hands of a trained engineer. There you go, your reason why the others dont have access to it. They were too busy training martial weapons and/or magic.
Anet chose to work with different specialisations (professions). You are now basically argueing against it.
So then since non-Engineers can't use any Engineering contraptions we'll not see any Dynamic Events in which Elementalists are using steamtanks? Or any rangers using blackpowder kegs?
And since it's so dangerous Engineers will occasionally misfire and blow themselves up?
How do propose to keep things like that reasonable from an immersive point of view?
Again you are making my point. If they are able to use if the situation asks for it, that doesnt make them efficient enough with it in all situations. A warrior in guild wars one could use a bow for pulling without being a ranger. Does that mean he can just as easily replace his sword with it and still be as deadly? No, and you know it. Stop asking for the obvious.
Well the thing is 80% of the Charr AREN'T engineers . Engineering was developed and is used mostly by the Iron Legion, just 1/3 of the total population of Charr, and in reality I doubt 100% of that 33% of the total Charr population (NPCs here) are even Engineers. I'm guessing of the total population only as much as 20% of them are Engineers, and that's just a guestimate.
But that would also follow that since likely at least 10% of all Charr will be guardians that 10% of all lore Charr are also Guardians. If 20% of all Charr are necromancers then 20% of all lore Charr should also be necromancers. Even though they apperantly mistrust magic so much.
-sigh- You make a good point. Honestly we'll have to just wait and see how many in-game Charr Guardian and Necromancer NPCs there are. ANET have said that there won't be MANY of these individuals, but there will definitely be some of them.
There actually won't be ANY Charr NPC Guardians. Jeff Grubb said this in an interview. I don't know about other caster professions but I think it would be safe to say there will be very few if any at all.
Still begs the question on what the player-NPC ratio will be. Most cities are 90% players and 10% NPCs. So Charr cities may very well be filled with Guardians, Elementalists, Mesmers ( if present ) and Necromancers. All the things Charr are supposed to mistrust.
And how many enemies will be Charr? Seeing as the races are allied I doubt the Charr will be a commonly seen enemy. So even there 50%-75% of all Charr will be players. So from all Charr it's likely that around 15% or even more seen in the game world will be Guardians, Elementalists, Mesmers and Necromancers.
We are the bunny. Resistance is futile. ''/\/\'''''/\/\''''''/\/\ ( o.o) ( o.o) ( o.o) (")("),,(")("),(")(")
Well the thing is 80% of the Charr AREN'T engineers . Engineering was developed and is used mostly by the Iron Legion, just 1/3 of the total population of Charr, and in reality I doubt 100% of that 33% of the total Charr population (NPCs here) are even Engineers. I'm guessing of the total population only as much as 20% of them are Engineers, and that's just a guestimate.
But that would also follow that since likely at least 10% of all Charr will be guardians that 10% of all lore Charr are also Guardians. If 20% of all Charr are necromancers then 20% of all lore Charr should also be necromancers. Even though they apperantly mistrust magic so much.
-sigh- You make a good point. Honestly we'll have to just wait and see how many in-game Charr Guardian and Necromancer NPCs there are. ANET have said that there won't be MANY of these individuals, but there will definitely be some of them.
There actually won't be ANY Charr NPC Guardians. Jeff Grubb said this in an interview. I don't know about other caster professions but I think it would be safe to say there will be very few if any at all.
Still begs the question on what the player-NPC ratio will be. Most cities are 90% players and 10% NPCs. So Charr cities may very well be filled with Guardians, Elementalists, Mesmers ( if present ) and Necromancers. All the things Charr are supposed to mistrust.
And how many enemies will be Charr? Seeing as the races are allied I doubt the Charr will be a commonly seen enemy. So even there 50%-75% of all Charr will be players. So from all Charr it's likely that around 15% or even more seen in the game world will be Guardians, Elementalists, Mesmers and Necromancers.
I'm willing to bet the Flame Legion Charr will be around.
Again you are making my point. If they are able to use if the situation asks for it, that doesnt make them efficient enough with it in all situations. A warrior in guild wars one could use a bow for pulling without being a ranger. Does that mean he can just as easily replace his sword with it and still be as deadly? No, and you know it. Stop asking for the obvious.
I'm not saying Elementalists should replace their spells with engineering.
I'm saying it would make for a more immersive and natural lore if elementalists had a small number of minor engineering abilities they could use when the situation asks for it.
What exactly is so wrong about introducing 2-3 utility skills that are engineering related?
We are the bunny. Resistance is futile. ''/\/\'''''/\/\''''''/\/\ ( o.o) ( o.o) ( o.o) (")("),,(")("),(")(")
You did mention signets earlier. But the post I was replying to didn't mention signets. You were talking about minor gadgets on their own. The context of your post shows you only talking about gadgets by themselves. If I can't tell that you are talking about gadgets that work like signets then it is your fault for only mentioning gadgets.
Professions in their own context wouldn't use technology because they have no use for it. The only exception is the Engineer.
To the orange part: Just because it is logical to you doesn't mean its what is going to happen or that it is the only logical thing that can happen.
Some people think that religion is logical.
Some people think that religion is illogical.
ArenaNet's lore is ArenaNet's lore. ArenaNet doesn't need to explicitly define that other professions can't use an Engineer's gadgets. It is simply the most logical course that they won't if it is unnecessary. An caster isn't going to use any of and Engineer's gadgets if they can cause the same effect with one of their spells.
Let's take a slightly different angle.
Would you be opposed to introducing 2-3 engineering-related utility abilities to each profession? Nothing extremely high-tech. Just something small, like I said a signet-like ability that's instead clockwork based. Just like warriors can carry magical rings for whatever reason Elementalists would be able to carry small clockwork devices.
The actual amount would vary per class. Maybe Guardians only get a single one of these clockwork devices while Thiefs get a few more.
For me, that would go a long way to fixing this ( in my opinion ) lore inconsistancy and make the world feel much more like an integrated natural whole. Would that break anything for you?
We are the bunny. Resistance is futile. ''/\/\'''''/\/\''''''/\/\ ( o.o) ( o.o) ( o.o) (")("),,(")("),(")(")
Still begs the question on what the player-NPC ratio will be. Most cities are 90% players and 10% NPCs. So Charr cities may very well be filled with Guardians, Elementalists, Mesmers ( if present ) and Necromancers. All the things Charr are supposed to mistrust.
And how many enemies will be Charr? Seeing as the races are allied I doubt the Charr will be a commonly seen enemy. So even there 50%-75% of all Charr will be players. So from all Charr it's likely that around 15% or even more seen in the game world will be Guardians, Elementalists, Mesmers and Necromancers.
You know gobla, in times where I find something breaking the lore or my immersion in a game, like you seem to be having now with the Engineers and the Charr, I tend to just extrapolate upon the lore in my head and make up my own rules that fix that immersion break. I know its not really a solution and I'm not trying to stop the discussion just maybe a suggestion XD. Game developers and players normally don't see eye to eye, especially with lore, but there's not much you can do about it. It's like when an author or a director takes the sequel to a book you loved and does something with it that pleases him and a lot of his fans but leaves a minority unsatisfied with the new turn of events. In 90% of situations things like this are unavoidable and just because we, the players, might see it as wrong, the developers see nothing wrong with it . the only place where this rule is broken more often than not is Japan... *cough* Evangelion *cough*.
Well the thing is 80% of the Charr AREN'T engineers . Engineering was developed and is used mostly by the Iron Legion, just 1/3 of the total population of Charr, and in reality I doubt 100% of that 33% of the total Charr population (NPCs here) are even Engineers. I'm guessing of the total population only as much as 20% of them are Engineers, and that's just a guestimate.
But that would also follow that since likely at least 10% of all Charr will be guardians that 10% of all lore Charr are also Guardians. If 20% of all Charr are necromancers then 20% of all lore Charr should also be necromancers. Even though they apperantly mistrust magic so much.
-sigh- You make a good point. Honestly we'll have to just wait and see how many in-game Charr Guardian and Necromancer NPCs there are. ANET have said that there won't be MANY of these individuals, but there will definitely be some of them.
There actually won't be ANY Charr NPC Guardians. Jeff Grubb said this in an interview. I don't know about other caster professions but I think it would be safe to say there will be very few if any at all.
Still begs the question on what the player-NPC ratio will be. Most cities are 90% players and 10% NPCs. So Charr cities may very well be filled with Guardians, Elementalists, Mesmers ( if present ) and Necromancers. All the things Charr are supposed to mistrust.
And how many enemies will be Charr? Seeing as the races are allied I doubt the Charr will be a commonly seen enemy. So even there 50%-75% of all Charr will be players. So from all Charr it's likely that around 15% or even more seen in the game world will be Guardians, Elementalists, Mesmers and Necromancers.
The underlined part makes me give up. You cant really believe that. You see 90% players, so that city has that few citizens? Really? What MMO does actually show a realistic number of citizens in cities? None. And the technical reasons for that are obvious. This also goes for the city dimensions. Its all restricted by technology. You are just trolling or really stupid. Sure report me, but stop it pls.
The underlined part makes me give up. You cant really believe that. You see 90% players, so that city has that few citizens? Really? What MMO does actually show a realistic number of citizens in cities? None. And the technical reasons for that are obvious. This also goes for the city dimensions. Its all restricted by technology. You are just trolling or really stupid. Sure report me, but stop it pls.
I'm talking about percentages, not absolute numbers.
If a city has a population of 1.000 but there's 10 NPCs then, in my view, each of those NPCs represents 100 people. If 90% of those NPCs are merchants, then in my view close to 90% of that city's population are merchants.
If a city consists of 90% players then, in my view, it's a trading port where 90% of the people you see on the street are visitors and don't actually live in the city ( minus the amount of players from that city's race that could be assumed to live in that city. )
If 25% of all Charr I see in the game are Warriors then, in my view, the lore should also depict that 25% of the Charr are warriors.
We are the bunny. Resistance is futile. ''/\/\'''''/\/\''''''/\/\ ( o.o) ( o.o) ( o.o) (")("),,(")("),(")(")
Again you are making my point. If they are able to use if the situation asks for it, that doesnt make them efficient enough with it in all situations. A warrior in guild wars one could use a bow for pulling without being a ranger. Does that mean he can just as easily replace his sword with it and still be as deadly? No, and you know it. Stop asking for the obvious.
I'm not saying Elementalists should replace their spells with engineering.
I'm saying it would make for a more immersive and natural lore if elementalists had a small number of minor engineering abilities they could use when the situation asks for it.
What exactly is so wrong about introducing 2-3 utility skills that are engineering related?
You are crossing the line from immersion to game mechanics. They CHOSE for certain profession designs for gamemechanic reasons and you can make up any reason from an immersive point of view as to why they cant or can use certain abilities.
Still,its possible that there will be consumables like the summoning stones in GW1, that lets you spawn a golem or turret as non engineer.
In Guild Wars 1 it would work because of dual professions. But in Guild Wars 2 you wont be able to , for the same reason a warrior doesnt get a necro minion ability.
You did mention signets earlier. But the post I was replying to didn't mention signets. You were talking about minor gadgets on their own. The context of your post shows you only talking about gadgets by themselves. If I can't tell that you are talking about gadgets that work like signets then it is your fault for only mentioning gadgets.
Professions in their own context wouldn't use technology because they have no use for it. The only exception is the Engineer.
To the orange part: Just because it is logical to you doesn't mean its what is going to happen or that it is the only logical thing that can happen.
Some people think that religion is logical.
Some people think that religion is illogical.
ArenaNet's lore is ArenaNet's lore. ArenaNet doesn't need to explicitly define that other professions can't use an Engineer's gadgets. It is simply the most logical course that they won't if it is unnecessary. An caster isn't going to use any of and Engineer's gadgets if they can cause the same effect with one of their spells.
Let's take a slightly different angle.
Would you be opposed to introducing 2-3 engineering-related utility abilities to each profession? Nothing extremely high-tech. Just something small, like I said a signet-like ability that's instead clockwork based. Just like warriors can carry magical rings for whatever reason Elementalists would be able to carry small clockwork devices.
The actual amount would vary per class. Maybe Guardians only get a single one of these clockwork devices while Thiefs get a few more.
For me, that would go a long way to fixing this ( in my opinion ) lore inconsistancy and make the world feel much more like an integrated natural whole. Would that break anything for you?
I'm not opposed to the facets of the engineer being mixed into the other professions. What I'm opposed to is stupid redundancy. What you are proposing is stupid redundancy.
Would you be opposed to the Warrior getting a utility skill that created a magical field that caused enemies to stop moving?
Would you be opposed to the Elementalist getting a utility skill where they impale their enemies with a spear to hold them in place?
Would you be opposed to the Engineer getting a utility skill where it can create a magical forcefield that blocks all attacks?
You see a lore inconsistancy. I don't and niether does ArenaNet. Its a very minor problem that is seen by only a single person. Its not changing.
You did mention signets earlier. But the post I was replying to didn't mention signets. You were talking about minor gadgets on their own. The context of your post shows you only talking about gadgets by themselves. If I can't tell that you are talking about gadgets that work like signets then it is your fault for only mentioning gadgets.
Professions in their own context wouldn't use technology because they have no use for it. The only exception is the Engineer.
To the orange part: Just because it is logical to you doesn't mean its what is going to happen or that it is the only logical thing that can happen.
Some people think that religion is logical.
Some people think that religion is illogical.
ArenaNet's lore is ArenaNet's lore. ArenaNet doesn't need to explicitly define that other professions can't use an Engineer's gadgets. It is simply the most logical course that they won't if it is unnecessary. An caster isn't going to use any of and Engineer's gadgets if they can cause the same effect with one of their spells.
Let's take a slightly different angle.
Would you be opposed to introducing 2-3 engineering-related utility abilities to each profession? Nothing extremely high-tech. Just something small, like I said a signet-like ability that's instead clockwork based. Just like warriors can carry magical rings for whatever reason Elementalists would be able to carry small clockwork devices.
The actual amount would vary per class. Maybe Guardians only get a single one of these clockwork devices while Thiefs get a few more.
For me, that would go a long way to fixing this ( in my opinion ) lore inconsistancy and make the world feel much more like an integrated natural whole. Would that break anything for you?
I think we might be seeing something like this in the form of crafting... With crafted clockwork devices being a crafting profession like Artificer or something. Though, from my experience, things like this, as well as the signets you described, will never be used by the playerbase and just provide unnecessary fluff . 9.99/10 times actual profession-based skills will trump consumable damage items or things like you're talking about. And again, why would a Guardian or other class need any of these things when they are perfectly capable of providing for themselves with their own spells and attacks which accomplish the same thing just through a different medium? Bottom line is I can see engineering/clockwork devices being implemented for making daily LIFE easier, but for adventuring, dungeoning, whatnot, there is little an Engineer can provide which makes another profession's skill obsolete.
The underlined part makes me give up. You cant really believe that. You see 90% players, so that city has that few citizens? Really? What MMO does actually show a realistic number of citizens in cities? None. And the technical reasons for that are obvious. This also goes for the city dimensions. Its all restricted by technology. You are just trolling or really stupid. Sure report me, but stop it pls.
I'm talking about percentages, not absolute numbers.
If a city has a population of 1.000 but there's 10 NPCs then, in my view, each of those NPCs represents 100 people. If 90% of those NPCs are merchants, then in my view close to 90% of that city's population are merchants.
If a city consists of 90% players then, in my view, it's a trading port where 90% of the people you see on the street are visitors and don't actually live in the city ( minus the amount of players from that city's race that could be assumed to live in that city. )
If 25% of all Charr I see in the game are Warriors then, in my view, the lore should also depict that 25% of the Charr are warriors.
That doesnt make sense at all. You see what is needed for players to play the game. It doesnt automatically reflect the citizen population in numbers. So you dont see a butcher or even a butcher shop even, even though you could expect there to be one.
But you know this, you are just being annoying.
Ever wondered why you rarely see kids in Guild Wars 1? Try to find them in Tyria.
You know gobla, in times where I find something breaking the lore or my immersion in a game, like you seem to be having now with the Engineers and the Charr, I tend to just extrapolate upon the lore in my head and make up my own rules that fix that immersion break. I know its not really a solution and I'm not trying to stop the discussion just maybe a suggestion XD. Game developers and players normally don't see eye to eye, especially with lore, but there's not much you can do about it. It's like when an author or a director takes the sequel to a book you loved and does something with it that pleases him and a lot of his fans but leaves a minority unsatisfied with the new turn of events. In 90% of situations things like this are unavoidable and just because we, the players, might see it as wrong, the developers see nothing wrong with it . the only place where this rule is broken more often than not is Japan... *cough* Evangelion *cough*.
As I said, it's a minor gripe that I enjoy discussing. It won't prevent me from playing the game. I won't lose any sleep over it. I'll likely not spend a lot of my playtime wondering about it.
But just because it's only a minor gripe doesn't the game lore is somehow perfect and it's not worth putting some effort and time into discussing things like this to see if there's any ways that it could, for me, be solved.
And likely there won't even be a perfect game lore. But doesn't prevent me from thinking about how what we have could be improved.
This is just something I enjoy discussing, can't really say I'm all that bothered about it. But it's something that's seen in basically every single MMO so it's interesting to talk about it.
We are the bunny. Resistance is futile. ''/\/\'''''/\/\''''''/\/\ ( o.o) ( o.o) ( o.o) (")("),,(")("),(")(")
I'm not opposed to the facets of the engineer being mixed into the other professions. What I'm opposed to is stupid redundancy. What you are proposing is stupid redundancy.
Would you be opposed to the Warrior getting a utility skill that created a magical field that caused enemies to stop moving?
Would you be opposed to the Elementalist getting a utility skill where they impale their enemies with a spear to hold them in place?
Would you be opposed to the Engineer getting a utility skill where it can create a magical forcefield that blocks all attacks?
You see a lore inconsistancy. I don't and niether does ArenaNet. Its a very minor problem that is seen by only a single person. Its not changing.
And the problem with redundancy is?
Besides, we're not at an ANet developer meeting here. It's just a forum. Nothing mentioned here is going to change the game. It's all just talk.
I see a lore inconsistancy, I'm discussing it. There's really nothing more to it. I'm not expecting to be suddenly promoted to lead developer of the GW2 team.
We are the bunny. Resistance is futile. ''/\/\'''''/\/\''''''/\/\ ( o.o) ( o.o) ( o.o) (")("),,(")("),(")(")
That doesnt make sense at all. You see what is needed for players to play the game. It doesnt automatically reflect the citizen population in numbers. So you dont see a butcher or even a butcher shop even, even though you could expect there to be one.
But you know this, you are just being annoying.
Ever wondered why you rarely see kids in Guild Wars 1? Try to find them in Tyria.
If only a very small percantage of the population are butchers then there wouldn't be enough of them to be represented by an NPC.
And yeah, games aren't perfect. So there's no kids in them.
And seriously, I'm not asking you to read or reply to my posts. This is something I enjoy discussing. If it's only annoying you then why exactly are you replying? Why not go discuss something you do enjoy discussing?
We are the bunny. Resistance is futile. ''/\/\'''''/\/\''''''/\/\ ( o.o) ( o.o) ( o.o) (")("),,(")("),(")(")
You know gobla, in times where I find something breaking the lore or my immersion in a game, like you seem to be having now with the Engineers and the Charr, I tend to just extrapolate upon the lore in my head and make up my own rules that fix that immersion break. I know its not really a solution and I'm not trying to stop the discussion just maybe a suggestion XD. Game developers and players normally don't see eye to eye, especially with lore, but there's not much you can do about it. It's like when an author or a director takes the sequel to a book you loved and does something with it that pleases him and a lot of his fans but leaves a minority unsatisfied with the new turn of events. In 90% of situations things like this are unavoidable and just because we, the players, might see it as wrong, the developers see nothing wrong with it . the only place where this rule is broken more often than not is Japan... *cough* Evangelion *cough*.
As I said, it's a minor gripe that I enjoy discussing. It won't prevent me from playing the game. I won't lose any sleep over it. I'll likely not spend a lot of my playtime wondering about it.
But just because it's only a minor gripe doesn't the game lore is somehow perfect and it's not worth putting some effort and time into discussing things like this to see if there's any ways that it could, for me, be solved.
And likely there won't even be a perfect game lore. But doesn't prevent me from thinking about how what we have could be improved.
This is just something I enjoy discussing, can't really say I'm all that bothered about it. But it's something that's seen in basically every single MMO so it's interesting to talk about it.
It has nothing to do with lore, it has to do with a pure game mechanics reason. The different professions. The division in that is a pure arbitrary one and can be made to work in any form from an immersion point of view. The lore in this case is just to support the profession design.
You only get into trouble with this if you look at it with our real life history in the back of your mind. But that doesnt work at all with any fantasy game or any MMO for that same reason.
My minor gripe is that in a world where Engineering exists among all races and has existed long enough for steamtanks, cars, turrets and mines to be invented there's no sign of it at all in many of the other professions.
This is just something I enjoy discussing. It's not something to win.
If you don't enjoy discussing it then simply stop doing so. I'm not forcing anyone to reply to me.
We are the bunny. Resistance is futile. ''/\/\'''''/\/\''''''/\/\ ( o.o) ( o.o) ( o.o) (")("),,(")("),(")(")
Comments
My mistake then. I actually remember that now, he says it in the wartower.de interview about the Engineers, doesn't he?
Actually I believe its an interview from Charr week.
Both your numbers make no sense. Races arent as isolated anymore as in Guild Wars 1 and the professions already show that you can train with other races in what was originally their specialisation. Lore makes up the race's history and origin of their magic or technology, not just current events. It also doesnt restrict them from training members of other races/clans to learn to use that.
Not to mention that the heroes that players represent are just a small fraction of the whole population. So you could even see them as the exceptions if you would like. Like in any MMO.
In a fantasy game, anytime any player says anything like "lol" or "Chuck Norris is so strong..." the lore is broken. There is literally no way to stop lore-breaking in an MMO, or at least a fantasy one. Even in single player games it's pretty easy; start a character in Dragon's Age 2 and name him "Stupidanus Hawke" and bam, lore destruction.
You did mention signets earlier. But the post I was replying to didn't mention signets. You were talking about minor gadgets on their own. The context of your post shows you only talking about gadgets by themselves. If I can't tell that you are talking about gadgets that work like signets then it is your fault for only mentioning gadgets.
Professions in their own context wouldn't use technology because they have no use for it. The only exception is the Engineer.
To the orange part: Just because it is logical to you doesn't mean its what is going to happen or that it is the only logical thing that can happen.
Some people think that religion is logical.
Some people think that religion is illogical.
ArenaNet's lore is ArenaNet's lore. ArenaNet doesn't need to explicitly define that other professions can't use an Engineer's gadgets. It is simply the most logical course that they won't if it is unnecessary. An caster isn't going to use any of and Engineer's gadgets if they can cause the same effect with one of their spells.
Again you are making my point. If they are able to use if the situation asks for it, that doesnt make them efficient enough with it in all situations. A warrior in guild wars one could use a bow for pulling without being a ranger. Does that mean he can just as easily replace his sword with it and still be as deadly? No, and you know it. Stop asking for the obvious.
Still begs the question on what the player-NPC ratio will be. Most cities are 90% players and 10% NPCs. So Charr cities may very well be filled with Guardians, Elementalists, Mesmers ( if present ) and Necromancers. All the things Charr are supposed to mistrust.
And how many enemies will be Charr? Seeing as the races are allied I doubt the Charr will be a commonly seen enemy. So even there 50%-75% of all Charr will be players. So from all Charr it's likely that around 15% or even more seen in the game world will be Guardians, Elementalists, Mesmers and Necromancers.
We are the bunny.
Resistance is futile.
''/\/\'''''/\/\''''''/\/\
( o.o) ( o.o) ( o.o)
(")("),,(")("),(")(")
I'm willing to bet the Flame Legion Charr will be around.
My theme song.
I'm not saying Elementalists should replace their spells with engineering.
I'm saying it would make for a more immersive and natural lore if elementalists had a small number of minor engineering abilities they could use when the situation asks for it.
What exactly is so wrong about introducing 2-3 utility skills that are engineering related?
We are the bunny.
Resistance is futile.
''/\/\'''''/\/\''''''/\/\
( o.o) ( o.o) ( o.o)
(")("),,(")("),(")(")
Let's take a slightly different angle.
Would you be opposed to introducing 2-3 engineering-related utility abilities to each profession? Nothing extremely high-tech. Just something small, like I said a signet-like ability that's instead clockwork based. Just like warriors can carry magical rings for whatever reason Elementalists would be able to carry small clockwork devices.
The actual amount would vary per class. Maybe Guardians only get a single one of these clockwork devices while Thiefs get a few more.
For me, that would go a long way to fixing this ( in my opinion ) lore inconsistancy and make the world feel much more like an integrated natural whole. Would that break anything for you?
We are the bunny.
Resistance is futile.
''/\/\'''''/\/\''''''/\/\
( o.o) ( o.o) ( o.o)
(")("),,(")("),(")(")
You know gobla, in times where I find something breaking the lore or my immersion in a game, like you seem to be having now with the Engineers and the Charr, I tend to just extrapolate upon the lore in my head and make up my own rules that fix that immersion break. I know its not really a solution and I'm not trying to stop the discussion just maybe a suggestion XD. Game developers and players normally don't see eye to eye, especially with lore, but there's not much you can do about it. It's like when an author or a director takes the sequel to a book you loved and does something with it that pleases him and a lot of his fans but leaves a minority unsatisfied with the new turn of events. In 90% of situations things like this are unavoidable and just because we, the players, might see it as wrong, the developers see nothing wrong with it
. the only place where this rule is broken more often than not is Japan... *cough* Evangelion *cough*.
The underlined part makes me give up. You cant really believe that. You see 90% players, so that city has that few citizens? Really? What MMO does actually show a realistic number of citizens in cities? None. And the technical reasons for that are obvious. This also goes for the city dimensions. Its all restricted by technology. You are just trolling or really stupid. Sure report me, but stop it pls.
I'm talking about percentages, not absolute numbers.
If a city has a population of 1.000 but there's 10 NPCs then, in my view, each of those NPCs represents 100 people. If 90% of those NPCs are merchants, then in my view close to 90% of that city's population are merchants.
If a city consists of 90% players then, in my view, it's a trading port where 90% of the people you see on the street are visitors and don't actually live in the city ( minus the amount of players from that city's race that could be assumed to live in that city. )
If 25% of all Charr I see in the game are Warriors then, in my view, the lore should also depict that 25% of the Charr are warriors.
We are the bunny.
Resistance is futile.
''/\/\'''''/\/\''''''/\/\
( o.o) ( o.o) ( o.o)
(")("),,(")("),(")(")
You are crossing the line from immersion to game mechanics. They CHOSE for certain profession designs for gamemechanic reasons and you can make up any reason from an immersive point of view as to why they cant or can use certain abilities.
Still,its possible that there will be consumables like the summoning stones in GW1, that lets you spawn a golem or turret as non engineer.
In Guild Wars 1 it would work because of dual professions. But in Guild Wars 2 you wont be able to , for the same reason a warrior doesnt get a necro minion ability.
I'm not opposed to the facets of the engineer being mixed into the other professions. What I'm opposed to is stupid redundancy. What you are proposing is stupid redundancy.
Would you be opposed to the Warrior getting a utility skill that created a magical field that caused enemies to stop moving?
Would you be opposed to the Elementalist getting a utility skill where they impale their enemies with a spear to hold them in place?
Would you be opposed to the Engineer getting a utility skill where it can create a magical forcefield that blocks all attacks?
You see a lore inconsistancy. I don't and niether does ArenaNet. Its a very minor problem that is seen by only a single person. Its not changing.
I think we might be seeing something like this in the form of crafting... With crafted clockwork devices being a crafting profession like Artificer or something. Though, from my experience, things like this, as well as the signets you described, will never be used by the playerbase and just provide unnecessary fluff
. 9.99/10 times actual profession-based skills will trump consumable damage items or things like you're talking about. And again, why would a Guardian or other class need any of these things when they are perfectly capable of providing for themselves with their own spells and attacks which accomplish the same thing just through a different medium? Bottom line is I can see engineering/clockwork devices being implemented for making daily LIFE easier, but for adventuring, dungeoning, whatnot, there is little an Engineer can provide which makes another profession's skill obsolete.
That doesnt make sense at all. You see what is needed for players to play the game. It doesnt automatically reflect the citizen population in numbers. So you dont see a butcher or even a butcher shop even, even though you could expect there to be one.
But you know this, you are just being annoying.
Ever wondered why you rarely see kids in Guild Wars 1? Try to find them in Tyria.
As I said, it's a minor gripe that I enjoy discussing. It won't prevent me from playing the game. I won't lose any sleep over it. I'll likely not spend a lot of my playtime wondering about it.
But just because it's only a minor gripe doesn't the game lore is somehow perfect and it's not worth putting some effort and time into discussing things like this to see if there's any ways that it could, for me, be solved.
And likely there won't even be a perfect game lore. But doesn't prevent me from thinking about how what we have could be improved.
This is just something I enjoy discussing, can't really say I'm all that bothered about it. But it's something that's seen in basically every single MMO so it's interesting to talk about it.
We are the bunny.
Resistance is futile.
''/\/\'''''/\/\''''''/\/\
( o.o) ( o.o) ( o.o)
(")("),,(")("),(")(")
And the problem with redundancy is?
Besides, we're not at an ANet developer meeting here. It's just a forum. Nothing mentioned here is going to change the game. It's all just talk.
I see a lore inconsistancy, I'm discussing it. There's really nothing more to it. I'm not expecting to be suddenly promoted to lead developer of the GW2 team.
We are the bunny.
Resistance is futile.
''/\/\'''''/\/\''''''/\/\
( o.o) ( o.o) ( o.o)
(")("),,(")("),(")(")
Wait, so am I correct in assuming that the arguement here is that Charr should in general be able to use engineering devices regardless of Class?
If so, then be still with comfort because they have racial Engineering abilities, confirmed is this:
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Shrapnel_Mine
--- Did I do it? Did I win?
People think it's fun to pretend your a monster. Me I spend my life pretending I'm not. - Dexter Morgan
We can only hope you did.
If only a very small percantage of the population are butchers then there wouldn't be enough of them to be represented by an NPC.
And yeah, games aren't perfect. So there's no kids in them.
And seriously, I'm not asking you to read or reply to my posts. This is something I enjoy discussing. If it's only annoying you then why exactly are you replying? Why not go discuss something you do enjoy discussing?
We are the bunny.
Resistance is futile.
''/\/\'''''/\/\''''''/\/\
( o.o) ( o.o) ( o.o)
(")("),,(")("),(")(")
No really, I've been following this thread all day - trying to find the disconnect, because I've known for a while about the Mine.
I didn't realize that the entire arguement was about an inconsitency based on Charr...
People think it's fun to pretend your a monster. Me I spend my life pretending I'm not. - Dexter Morgan
It has nothing to do with lore, it has to do with a pure game mechanics reason. The different professions. The division in that is a pure arbitrary one and can be made to work in any form from an immersion point of view. The lore in this case is just to support the profession design.
You only get into trouble with this if you look at it with our real life history in the back of your mind. But that doesnt work at all with any fantasy game or any MMO for that same reason.
My minor gripe is that in a world where Engineering exists among all races and has existed long enough for steamtanks, cars, turrets and mines to be invented there's no sign of it at all in many of the other professions.
This is just something I enjoy discussing. It's not something to win.
If you don't enjoy discussing it then simply stop doing so. I'm not forcing anyone to reply to me.
We are the bunny.
Resistance is futile.
''/\/\'''''/\/\''''''/\/\
( o.o) ( o.o) ( o.o)
(")("),,(")("),(")(")